You sound frustrated, and I can imagine that noise or an aircraft passing overheat at a low altitude - even if that’s a legal altitude - can cause concern in the non-flying public.
If I can make some respectful suggestions:
(1) I’m not a Colorado local but did some training years ago at KAPA. The area where the airplane was doing maneuvers is a known local practice area, and would probably not meet the FAA’s definition of a congested area. The town center of Elizabeth, CO is barely even marked as an urban area on a VFR sectional chart. The most likely explanation of this is a student doing completely legal maneuvering practice (ground reference maneuvers and/or engine out simulations, both of which are required by law and are conducted between 600-1000 feet above the ground). It’s possible the student or instructor were slow in recovering, leading to a descent below expected altitude. However: it unlikely anything illegal happened here, and the FSDO is not going to do anything for you. One other note - ADSB altitude reporting can be inaccurate by several hundred feet when ambient air pressure is abnormally high or low (CO had high pressure today, so the traffic may have been 250 feet higher than ADSB reported), or if the airplane’s transponder is reporting inaccurately (+/- 200 additional feet is possible).
(2) the Quiet Skies people are pushing training flights further and further from the airport - which means small towns like yours are more likely to get get training traffic, not less.
(3) what I would do in your shoes is call the flight school and ask to talk to the chief pilot. Explain your concerns and share the time/tail number so they can look up the ADSB track. It may be that the CFI needs retraining or that the chief pilot can tell CFIs to avoid flying low altitude maneuvers over the town even though it’s not clearly marked on the sectional chart.
In our area we have a number of homes and farms we know to avoid because low altitude maneuvers cause concern or consternation with the residents, even though they are perfectly legal places to fly and uncongested areas are hard to find in the SF Bay Area. But in general flight schools do want to find workable solutions to keep neighbors happy, since their business relies on the airport staying open.
Bro is posting this on multiple sub Reddit’s 😭 how do you know it’s a CFI? Are you a pilot? If you’re really this mad stop crying on Reddit and call you the FSDO and report them . ADSB data will not be enough proof probably but their school could get a call or something.
Airport elevation is 5800 MSL feet and it has them at 6600 feet MSL. That’s 800 feet AGL…. Hmmm if only there was a PPL maneuver performed at 800 feet AGL
ADS-B transmits uncorrected pressure altitude, not height AGL. It's not a reliable source on its own for determining how high above the ground an aircraft was flying.
This was earlier this morning, a c172 flew 150 feet above residential homes, incredibly close to stall speeds. This is an almost daily occurrence of trainer aircraft flying under their 1000’ minimum.
What in the actual fuck guys?
Do you guys really wonder why people are getting sick of the traffic from KAPA? I’m saying this as someone who used to train out of KDVT in Phoenix.
Pass this around and share it with your circles, this is getting out of hand. Either be good stewards of the profession and hobby, or continue to piss everyone off and lose the privilege. I have no idea why some of you are pushing boundaries and flying like idiots with that potential lawsuit hanging over KAPA GA.
Let’s have a conversation on this - do any of you think this is okay?!
Should I just skip the discourse and go straight to the FSDO, and share this repeated experience with Quiet Skies over Arapahoe?
Let’s hear it - why should residents who don’t live ANYWHERE NEAR KAPA have to tolerate this behavior from CFI’s?
The altitude of that area is 6550’.
Even one mistake and that planes in someone’s master bedroom.
Rather than downvote, prove me wrong here. I’d love to see someone tell me this flight behavior is appropriate. Let me know if any of you have any insight before I take it further.
lurking-constantly@reddit
You sound frustrated, and I can imagine that noise or an aircraft passing overheat at a low altitude - even if that’s a legal altitude - can cause concern in the non-flying public.
If I can make some respectful suggestions:
(1) I’m not a Colorado local but did some training years ago at KAPA. The area where the airplane was doing maneuvers is a known local practice area, and would probably not meet the FAA’s definition of a congested area. The town center of Elizabeth, CO is barely even marked as an urban area on a VFR sectional chart. The most likely explanation of this is a student doing completely legal maneuvering practice (ground reference maneuvers and/or engine out simulations, both of which are required by law and are conducted between 600-1000 feet above the ground). It’s possible the student or instructor were slow in recovering, leading to a descent below expected altitude. However: it unlikely anything illegal happened here, and the FSDO is not going to do anything for you. One other note - ADSB altitude reporting can be inaccurate by several hundred feet when ambient air pressure is abnormally high or low (CO had high pressure today, so the traffic may have been 250 feet higher than ADSB reported), or if the airplane’s transponder is reporting inaccurately (+/- 200 additional feet is possible).
(2) the Quiet Skies people are pushing training flights further and further from the airport - which means small towns like yours are more likely to get get training traffic, not less.
(3) what I would do in your shoes is call the flight school and ask to talk to the chief pilot. Explain your concerns and share the time/tail number so they can look up the ADSB track. It may be that the CFI needs retraining or that the chief pilot can tell CFIs to avoid flying low altitude maneuvers over the town even though it’s not clearly marked on the sectional chart.
In our area we have a number of homes and farms we know to avoid because low altitude maneuvers cause concern or consternation with the residents, even though they are perfectly legal places to fly and uncongested areas are hard to find in the SF Bay Area. But in general flight schools do want to find workable solutions to keep neighbors happy, since their business relies on the airport staying open.
CorrectPhotograph488@reddit
Bro is posting this on multiple sub Reddit’s 😭 how do you know it’s a CFI? Are you a pilot? If you’re really this mad stop crying on Reddit and call you the FSDO and report them . ADSB data will not be enough proof probably but their school could get a call or something.
Worldly_Opinion_5827@reddit
Grievance Collectors
WWWYZZERDDDD@reddit (OP)
Sounds like everyone’s content with pissing off and endangering the communities they train over, then?
CorrectPhotograph488@reddit
Airport elevation is 5800 MSL feet and it has them at 6600 feet MSL. That’s 800 feet AGL…. Hmmm if only there was a PPL maneuver performed at 800 feet AGL
WWWYZZERDDDD@reddit (OP)
What does the CFR’s say about densely populated areas and the minimum altitude you must stay from said residences?
yawara25@reddit
ADS-B transmits uncorrected pressure altitude, not height AGL. It's not a reliable source on its own for determining how high above the ground an aircraft was flying.
VOptimisticPessimist@reddit
Also, ground speed ≠ KIAS
WWWYZZERDDDD@reddit (OP)
Oh, is it off by 800 feet then?
WWWYZZERDDDD@reddit (OP)
This was earlier this morning, a c172 flew 150 feet above residential homes, incredibly close to stall speeds. This is an almost daily occurrence of trainer aircraft flying under their 1000’ minimum.
What in the actual fuck guys?
Do you guys really wonder why people are getting sick of the traffic from KAPA? I’m saying this as someone who used to train out of KDVT in Phoenix.
Pass this around and share it with your circles, this is getting out of hand. Either be good stewards of the profession and hobby, or continue to piss everyone off and lose the privilege. I have no idea why some of you are pushing boundaries and flying like idiots with that potential lawsuit hanging over KAPA GA.
Atlanta_Mane@reddit
If you think it's seriously a safety concern, report it to the local fsdo
WWWYZZERDDDD@reddit (OP)
Let’s have a conversation on this - do any of you think this is okay?!
Should I just skip the discourse and go straight to the FSDO, and share this repeated experience with Quiet Skies over Arapahoe?
Let’s hear it - why should residents who don’t live ANYWHERE NEAR KAPA have to tolerate this behavior from CFI’s?
The altitude of that area is 6550’.
Even one mistake and that planes in someone’s master bedroom.
Rather than downvote, prove me wrong here. I’d love to see someone tell me this flight behavior is appropriate. Let me know if any of you have any insight before I take it further.