Agricultural libertarian here...change my mind!
Posted by LadyCurmudgeon2024@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 78 comments
Posted by LadyCurmudgeon2024@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 78 comments
Right_Archivist@reddit
I'll meet you in between and say we should stop giving so much business to Fast Food and fake foods. Cook everything you eat. It's a time-drain for sure but you can multi-task and it's even cheaper in the long-run.
MoistSoros@reddit
Self-reliant artists? What are they gonna do, eat their paintings?
sandhillbaby2005@reddit
I agree. I don't think anyone is talking about dumping our current tech to be an Amish agrarian society, just to be more self reliant. Maybe not everyone be farmers and ranchers but bring back the freedom gardens of the '40s, or neighborhood community food gardens. Own a couple of chickens, maybe (if you're feeling adventurous) a milk goat. Some people talked about disease, how about that most of our tainted food comes from countries that have put hygiene practices. Not to mention using human fecal material in the farming process. We should also learn to use complimentary alternative medicine (not to usurp modern medicine but to use it with modern medicine), to decrease the need for so many over the counter medications.
Myte342@reddit
I had an idea. Political positions that aren't executive in nature like a President/Governor/Mayor etc (so all legislators) should be a volunteer position. They do not get paid for their time, and they only meet for 3 months of the year. This means their time in office coincides perfectly for being a teacher in public school as their normal job and they can be a politician during the off time in summer vacation. This also means they have a natural incentive to make sure teachers are paid a proper wage as a side effect.
So now they have 3 months a year to write and pass laws. If it can't be passed... it wasn't important enough to be a law, better luck next year.
trustedbyamillion@reddit
This is called Agrarianism and it's a separate political philosophy. Not without its merits but it's a completely voluntary philosophy so it can exist side by side within a Capitalist society.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
Or physiocracy
KingMelray@reddit
Just do this. Like buying a farm is an achievable goal. If you're serious about it you could get it done in less than 12 months.
RadagastTheBrownie@reddit
Well, yes and no.
The unfortunate irony of the free market, is that trade is awesome and makes everyone better... except, it means dealing with people, and people suck. So, free trade appeals the most, to people who want to trade the least.
And, on a macro-level: "Self Reliant" economies don't trade- sure, they can, but the selling point is "don't want to, don't have to." Dirt-Farming, while admirable, is also dirt-poor. This is why sweatshops are an upgrade for subsisdence farmers.
So, it's a weird mix. Empire is the worst. The urge to conquer is a sad consequence of evolution and Genghis Khan's libido.
But, talking to weird, short people you can't understand a million miles away is somehow key to prosperity. I don't get it. I've been told I have a diagnosis. But there's a reason the suave, charming people get paid the good money to talk about golf for three hours at least, and the rest of us get written up for insubordination.
The "American Dream" is "Fuck all of y'all, I'll do my own thing."
But, the real money is in "wait, how much to fuck all of y'all? Only Fans premium butthole pics, let's go! Subscribe and I'll down a whole can of corn on-cam. It's a corny can-cam!"
BallsOutKrunked@reddit
I mean sort of, but do you want your kids to die of curable medical problems but no one is a surgeon or chemist anymore because everyone is churning their own butter?
Edward Abbey made money from publishing houses, printing presses, and retailers. He had a literary agent ffs.
I'm all about people making whatever decisions they like with their own lives but really, imagine the downsides of the world in that quote and be okay with that too.
No advanced military technology so we get smoked by whatever nation in 50-100 years when we're at a major disadvantage, etc.
Irisgrower2@reddit
So tax the people to fund the military which is told what to do by the monopolies?
jimethn@reddit
The American dream also included a lack of regulatory capture, I believe. (I'm sure they didn't imagine such a thing specifically, but they didn't want the government picking winners and losers in the market fr.)
But regulatory capture isn't going to get solved by self-reliance.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Libertarians can’t figure out if they need regulatory capture, or not. On the one hand, currency stability requires some regulatory capture. On the other, why even bother with currency stability?
Some respected economic theories would hold that a currency first derives its initial value when the currency issuer levies taxes. Which is to say, why should the citizen hold the national currency just because it is the national currency… unless of course you must pay the state their taxes in the currency they exclusively issue.
If such a claim were true, this would give explicit reason for the state to target those who are self-reliant. By property taxes most likely. Or, going deeper, by naming and protecting their property rights.
So therefore regulatory capture actually solved self-reliance. But it means the reverse can be true, likely with a bit of struggle though.
Shockedge@reddit
Ted Kaczynski was right
Aicire@reddit
YESSSS!!
AmericanaCrux@reddit
I think you’re sort of misconstruing an agricultural lifestyle. But maybe I’m wrong on that.
In the long run then, would you rather a world with immortality and just the perception of individual freedom? If these were the absolute poles, total individual freedom and shorter life, or freedom only as a social construct and longer life…
Which framework then is more ideal for how we debate libertarianism? And if these poles are unrealistic or unattainable, then which should we strive for? Which gets us closer to that libertarian ideal, subsistence agriculture or this someday technological utopia?
wadewadewade777@reddit
I don’t want to go back to the time of being an agrarian society. I’m cool if you want to, but let me go to the grocery store for my food.
phifal@reddit
This meme made me google "Amish artists" first...
Aicire@reddit
Yesss!!!!
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
Tell me you haven’t bucked a single hay bale, without saying you haven’t bucked a single hay bale.
LadyCurmudgeon2024@reddit (OP)
I did from the age of 14 on... and we call it throwing a bale in my neck of the woods.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
Such a city slicker thing to say, “throwing hay”
LadyCurmudgeon2024@reddit (OP)
🤣 Yeah, well, now it's baling hay in a 4x4x8 large square bale because no one handles small bales anymore. Semantics.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
We do, we keep our old machines running.
LadyCurmudgeon2024@reddit (OP)
We don't, but we feed cattle. That is good to keep the older ways!
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
We have 15 head, so not a huge amount of food necessary.
To address the more academic side of your argument, physiocracy has never been successful.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Thank you for the term physiocracy. Hadn’t heard of it.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
It didn’t last very long and rightfully so.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
I’d be interested to hear why it might not be as relevant today if you’d care to elaborate. Or why you find it inadequate.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
Agriculture doesn’t usually breed a lot of innovation. As discussed above, our small farm doesn’t feel the need to buy new equipment. Most of it is stuff grandpa bought. A lot of farmers are skeptical of anything new. “This is the way we have always done things” or “it’s tradition” are ingrained in the culture.
Capitalism is superior because it drives innovation wherever it is needed. We have leaps and stalls, ebbs and flows in all industries, rather than a myopic focus on one. Those inconsistent leaps and stalls are because we have hit an intellectual cap, temporarily, or demand for innovation in that sector. Smart and competitive companies will form new ideas in other sectors and drive those forward.
Also, how would you differentiate your crop from the next farmer? Granted there are grades of everything, but is it REALLY that different?
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Thanks, good answer.
I think agriculture has done quite an extraordinary job with innovation despite your tales of skepticism. Which I have also found true.
Capitalism is best as the preeminent economic system. But I think it has disconnected us from an intuitive, deeply human understanding of land value. And too from how to preserve that value. It is stripping us of that knowledge. Hence why I was intrigued to learn the term physiocracy.
But I think it is capitalism that can ultimately help guide us back to that. I’d just hate for it to come too late.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
Large mega farms are exceptionally well run. Small farms like ours is terribly inefficient. Because of the lack of desire for buying newer, more expensive equipment.
Land is only really valuable if there is a differentiating resource or some innovation within proximity. Land wouldn’t be valuable if everyone was growing food. It would depress prices of both land and food.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Well, no.
All land has differentiating resources and innovation.
Just need the right mind to unlock it.
Just the microbial life alone in one little patch of dirt under a tree is diverse enough and crazy enough to have hidden within it a secret, one that could cure or perhaps one that could kill.
And mega farms are exceptionally well run… if you squint really hard at balance sheets. And even then the claim can be dubious for some operations.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
Objectively, for strict economic conversations, not all land is intrinsically valuable. Large swaths of permafrost bog land holds little utility to us.
Ecologically, sure. And of course you could make the argument that everything is important to us, but most of us like to discuss the macro picture.
And that last point proves mine.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Yup, that all checks out and makes good sense. I see it a bit differently but it’s good logic and hard to argue! Appreciate a good debate.
Pouroldfashioned@reddit
Cheers
jimethn@reddit
I mean you're not wrong but also this quote is extremely dated. Farmers aren't competitive in the 2024 global economy, and a nation of farmers will get invaded.
natermer@reddit
Have you ever tried farming?
It kinda sucks.
LadyCurmudgeon2024@reddit (OP)
Yes, for 50 years. It is a wonderful way of life, but we aren't very rich.
h0nest_Bender@reddit
We tried that, already. It was called the Middle Ages.
We still had Kings and shit.
blzbar@reddit
That’s a highly inefficient allocation of resources. Small independent producers won’t be able to compete with large scale corporations and conglomerates. The worlds operates on capitalist principles. This lil house on the prairie fantasy is a relic of the past.
19_Cornelius_19@reddit
It would be inefficient for a lot of resources, but not all. The competition to large-scale corporations would simply be the family growing or raising a good portion of their own food. They could also make small items such as candles, soaps, pottery, blankets, etc..
The large-scale corporations then come in to fill the remaining needs of the family. Electronics, exotic foods, etc..
OHYAMTB@reddit
Small scale subsistence farming does not generate enough surplus value to enable the purchase of electronics, exotic foods, or much else
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Small scale subsistence farming can do that. It already did do it. They invented the shit they needed, then built it, then sold it.
What you want is excess. And that’s fine. Free market baby. But what you need is consumer credit. And how did banks build good strong cash reserves so they can extend risky loans? From good solid cash crops, I mean cash cows, I mean cash farms, I mean… from farmers.
Small scale subsistence farming, self reliance, sustainable agriculture… why don’t we figure out what exactly they can generate going forward before we keep begging for excess until they are all bled dry.
sheltonchoked@reddit
That’s why there were so many more people alive in the 1800’s vs now. /s
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Your metric to watch in all this is population size? Maximum people is maximum… what, success?
sheltonchoked@reddit
Not my metric.
But “everyone go to small scale substance farming” means billions starve to death.
If you want a genocide, own it.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
I’ll own the responsibility of getting to my own self reliance as best I can. Of using my free will and individual liberty to guide me to a sustainable path forward. I’ll own that.
You want to see how long you can go down the “technologically enlightened” death spiral of multinational conglomerate agribusiness… then you can own that.
sheltonchoked@reddit
So long as it’s only you going back to the 1500’s economy, you do you.
And there are planets of difference between “small scale substinace farms for all” and “multinational conglomerate agribusiness “.
Maybe, modern agriculture with 1,000’s of small farmers would work?
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Don’t entirely understand the question as it is phrased, but I can confidently say that yes, there are planets of difference between small scale subsistence farming and multinational conglomerate agribusiness. And also, I’m sure there is a sweet spot.
But you have to at least be looking for it.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Is efficiency of allocation your only consideration here within the framework of capitalist principles?
Where does quality rank?
And agricultural libertarianism, with self-reliance, is certainly not a relic of the past… it is looking more and more likely to be our future salvation.
Content_Structure118@reddit
Self-reliance is key. Being able to take care of yourself and your family, grow your own food if you have a yard, and know how to do stuff is important.
This is one reason we don't hear more about Hurricane Helene survivors and the missing any more in the media. Those folks in NC were self-reliant, could grow their own food, and they're fiercely independent.
Likestoreadcomments@reddit
The fact that we don’t operate on capitalist principles and that the government has their filthy hands in everything is precisely the problem.
Kernel_Internal@reddit
Also, maybe it's accurate but so what? If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. Not particularly profound.
AlphaTangoFoxtrt@reddit
That "self reliant" Farmer worked 10 hours days, 7 days a week. And it took a weeks pay to buy a cabinet from the craftsman who spent a week making it.
You're romanticizing a past you don't understand.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
This isn’t the past.
That farmer exists even if we can’t see it. That farmer exists today in countries or areas where arable land, cheap labor, and water abundance are exploited for maximum short term production. That farmer exists in lands where they have been replaced by automated machinery or equipment. That farmer exists now as an agriculture scholar, an agribusinessman, a lobbyist, a sovereign wealth fund manager… what have you.
The “farmer” exists increasingly without any connection to the land. And so your efficiently allocated free market affordable food is increasingly shit, with an abundance of shit options, and shit options that only create shittier options.
I think you yourself might be romanticizing something you don’t understand. The state of modern agriculture is dire, and yet we discredit the old way as quaint and undesirable.
One thing tough work and self reliance provides is a nuanced understanding of dynamic Quality, as discussed by Robert M. Pirsig. That food, that farm, that soil, that wood, that cabinet… I can picture it and it makes me smile. I’m romanticizing Quality, because that should be the idealistic essence driving Capitalism.
Cellar_Door369@reddit
Truth
Azvus@reddit
Pol Pot?
Deepvaleredoubt@reddit
Curious how many laws and regulations are in place to hamper that sort of lifestyle. Hmm..
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Yeah, I’m with you. If you haven’t read Wendell Berry yet then you should do so.
Self-reliance teaches the individual how to be the best possible consumer. One who is broadly educated in a practical manner, has options and thus not leveraged, appreciates the value and quality and can rationally derive a fair trade proposition from their own experiences.
If we can get back to being that sort of consumer, then libertarianism comes naturally at that point.
Ain’t the easy path though.
Hedgewizard1958@reddit
Let me add Gene Logsdon and Joel Salatin to your reading list.
Thomas Jefferson had this same vision. And I'm heavily invested in it.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Awesome thanks, look forward to reading! I’ll throw Rene Dubos back at ya.
Hedgewizard1958@reddit
Just an aside, Gene Logsdon and Wendell Berry were friends, and very like minded.
Dubos! Had to look him up. I read Just One Earth in high school. Need reacquaint myself.
XamosLife@reddit
What specific book?
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Unsettling of America would be the one for me.
dark4181@reddit
I’m in too. Check out Texas Slim and the Beef Initiative. They’re doing great work.
AmericanaCrux@reddit
Good tip or good plug. Either way, did my preliminary glance and looks interesting. I’ll dive in later. It’s a 501c3 by I am Texas Slim Foundation… do you have any good info to determine if this guy is legit and the operation is clean?
dark4181@reddit
I’ve been to several BI events, including the Cattleman’s Feast that was held in Nashville at Bitcoin 2024. The food is great and the ranchers are amazing. It’s all about regenerative agriculture and restoring the American food system.
EndlessExploration@reddit
We could also go back to high infant mortality, mass poverty, polio, and smallpox.
As a hobby, growing food is cool. As a form of survival, it's highly inefficient. This site only exists because we moved on from an agrarian lifestyle to specialization.
Technology enables us to be freer than ever. Governments misuse that technology to oppress us.
MathiasThomasII@reddit
I’ve been told me having a garden is not sustainable because there isn’t enough space for everyone in the US to grow their own food.
thrublue22@reddit
The problem with this is mass population unfortunately. If there was enough land to make this happen, I think would be amazing
LadyCurmudgeon2024@reddit (OP)
I agree with you there. Plus, many prime agricultural lands are built into cities, the counties around Washington DC, for example, have some of the best soils in the USA.
XamosLife@reddit
Yessss, I fuck with this HEAVY
NotADogIzswear2020@reddit
Sounds great....if you have a time machine to go back to when America was an agrarian economy.
MannieOKelly@reddit
And people worked all day to have enough to eat. It's called poverty. I suspect there would be few takers even among us libertarians, who would choose to grow their own food and make their own clothes.
Libertarianism is about liberty to choose, not about economic structure--large enterprises or small enterprises.
SneakyRickyy@reddit
This is where my Libertarian wears off
aberg227@reddit
Bring back Henry David Thoreaus America.
Tequilamami__@reddit
I think people would be a lot happier!
Honeydew-2523@reddit
💪