Reviewing the fallout rules

[-]

natiplease@reddit

Hey coming in here and just had a couple questions. Nuclear simulators do seem to miss my home, luckily. But I would still likely shelter in place and seal off vents doors and windows as much as possible.

But after the 2 week period, what kinds of things are safe?

Would it be safe to eat my chicken eggs if I was in a place where I would have to wait 2 weeks until relative safety? They would pretty much be entirely unguarded at that point. The most I would do is pour out a bag of their food beforehand and fill their water buckets.

And how long until rivers that pass through radioactive zones are safe again?

[-]

enolaholmes23@reddit

Is there a site that has simulators to check my location?

[-]

natiplease@reddit

Someone posted one in another comment. Unfortunately the data given seems to be kind of basic but it may help paint some sort of idea.

https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/targetlist.html

[-]

enolaholmes23@reddit

Thanks

[-]

AnitaResPrep@reddit

sealing yes, but you need air exchange, so you need air filtration (and working without power indeed) ....

[-]

hope-luminescence@reddit

You do not actually need filtration really. Fallout is pretty coarse.

[-]

AnitaResPrep@reddit

Fall out is not the only hazard, look at the effects of 9/11 balst and the toxic particulates, and add the soots, VOC, from unextinguished high level fires ... People are only concerned by "fall out", this is not the only atmospheric/ground hazard !

[-]

hope-luminescence@reddit

If you have to wait the full two weeks you probably need more fallout shelter than just a house (which is better than nothing).

Are you taking the chickens in the fallout shelter with you?

Eggs that were inside a chicken should be clean as long as they didn't get fallout on them. And can be washed off.

[-]

Dependent-Ad1927@reddit

Nuclear fallout? Ima get drunk and shoot guns in the nude outside

[-]

Virtual-Feature-9747@reddit

While this is an interesting response, I don't understand how this is helpful or popular in a prepping forum..

[-]

Tacomaguy24@reddit

Because surviving a nuclear war is unlikely and if you do it'll be miserable.

[-]

hope-luminescence@reddit

First, that's what I call defeatism.

Second, this isn't actually supported by evidence, and preparedness will make it less miserable.

[-]

Virtual-Feature-9747@reddit

Depends on where you live and how prepared you are.

My assumption is that people who are prepping are interested in survival, which should include some degree of comfort and safety.

[-]

appsecSme@reddit

I think the best advice it is to put your head between your knees and kiss your ass goodbye.

"Threads" will dispell any nonsense about surviving the wasteland like a Vault Dweller.

[-]

Holiday_Albatross441@reddit

Britain was always toast in a thermonuclear war. Too many military targets in a tiny little island and a government more concerned with fighting the war than protecting the people (mostly because they knew 90% of the people would die no matter what they did).

Much of the US will not receive any direct fallout in the short term. Eventually some will get picked up and carried to many of those places by the winds but by then the radiation will have dropped to reasonable levels.

[-]

hope-luminescence@reddit

It's not going to be a wasteland. It's going to be pretty normal in a few weeks.

It is always more virtuous to try to live.

[-]

TwentySevenAlpacas@reddit (OP)

I used to not care if I died but since I became a parent, I now really want to be able to protect my kid.

[-]

Dependent-Ad1927@reddit

You and I gave the same advice. Mine is just more enjoyable

[-]

davidm2232@reddit

Why? Won't it burn? On warm autumn days I like to do this but not during a fallout event.

[-]

Dependent-Ad1927@reddit

The burn is just weakness leaving the body

[-]

davidm2232@reddit

I suppose. But if that's something you would like to do, why not just do it now?

[-]

Dependent-Ad1927@reddit

I live in Alaska. I do do it now.

[-]

davidm2232@reddit

Same in NY. They haven't made that illegal yet luckily

[-]

lizerdk@reddit

🫡

[-]

No_Response7182@reddit

One thing I keep thinking about it…what about my 6 year old at school? Do I wait 24 hours and then go get him? Don’t wait and go immediately? Wait longer?

[-]

MmeLaRue@reddit

If you have not already planned to relocate with your child in advance of an impending nuclear threat, then you would only be blocking up traffic by trying to get him.

The protocol for schools has historically varied. If your school has a "go-home" policy for nuclear attacks, then the kids will be advised to walk/bike/skateboard home or take the bus home as quickly as possible - dismissal will likely be immediate. If they are to be evacuated from the school to a safe location, they will conduct a roll call of children who are on those buses and at those safe locations and may be able to communicate this information to other shelters so that parents separated from them might get some relief. There may be instructions from the school beforehand, suggesting parents pack some items in their kids' school bags just in case, such as a change of clothes, their favourite toy, a small first aid kit, any necessary medicines and the prescriptions for them, toileteries, legal documents or copies thereof, etc.

[-]

BeneficialBack1264@reddit

Made me think of the movie 'Ladybug Ladybug' from 1963. The teachers walked their children home in a smaller community.

[-]

MmeLaRue@reddit

That was a source for my thinking as well. In many ways, it made sense because more mothers would likely be at home to receive their children and, in theory anyway, would have had homes better prepared for such an event. The smaller school boards might not have had the money to incorporate a shelter in building plans nor to stock it. And, in lower risk areas where fallout would be the only concern, there’d be plenty of time to ascertain the threat, give the direction for the kids to go home, then ensure that the kids were home safe before the air started getting spicy.

[-]

ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

Really depends on your specific circumstances. At one time many schools & municipal buildings had an area (basement, etc) that doubled as a stocked Civil Defense shelter.

And everyone was drilled on what to do if the siren went off, "Duck & Cover", etc.

MAD basically killed off this line of thought & action.

[-]

justanotherguyhere16@reddit

How far are you from the school?

The school isn’t likely to be a good place to be unless they happen to have an up to date fallout shelter.

Can you get to the school and home before the blast?

Before the fallout arrives?

My kids are 3 blocks away. So…

[-]

No_Response7182@reddit

About 5 miles…it takes me 8 minutes on a normal day. I’m 80 miles from a naval shipyard. My 14 year old I know I could wait a day but my 6 year old… dunno what would happen to him.

[-]

TwentySevenAlpacas@reddit (OP)

Yeah I am a parent too and can’t even imagine what I’d do

[-]

68carguy@reddit

Ive thought about this too and I think there’s no way I couldn’t go to them immediately somehow.

[-]

CTSwampyankee@reddit

You get a measuring device so you can make informed decisions

[-]

TwentySevenAlpacas@reddit (OP)

Can you recommend one?

[-]

CTSwampyankee@reddit

BetterGeiger is on here, you can check his stuff out.

For a no-brainer, always powered on, the Nukalert appears to be a good warning device.

You need to read and understand NWSS and get a paper copy. You have to know what dose and rate mean and be able to act on these numbers. Ideally, get an alarming dosimeter, but the keychain versions is a start.

Bugging out too early is a recipe for being cooked on the road, being unable to decon, being stuck around others who want your gear.

Did I survive the blast and initial radiation? Is there a radioactive environment? Determine rate/strength of what you're being hit with. Can I survive this (dose rate)? More shielding? Short sprint to better spot? Decon? Okay, I have the dose rate and a rough understanding of how it will decline over time. Is there any wind blowing anything toward me? Monitor.

[-]

Sweet-Leadership-290@reddit

Two weeks is considered sufficient. See the 7-10 rule

https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/gory-details/nuclear-attack-theres-no-avoiding-brutal-math

[-]

ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

10 kt??

From the data I have, the Russian Strategic ICBM inventory contains from 800 kt to as little as 100 kt....& over 1,000 of these.

[-]

AnitaResPrep@reddit

kt is the estimated blast power compared to TNT, and it is not linear (800 is not destroying x80 of surface). And nothing to do with the level and amount and type of radioactive material. 10kt from fissile material in the first bombs.

[-]

ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

Very familiar with yields, blast effects, etc

Especially with those of Russian ICBM. And I expect everything inside the Beltway to be FUBAR.

[-]

Sweet-Leadership-290@reddit

The Sacramento beltway?

[-]

ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

DC

[-]

Sweet-Leadership-290@reddit

If you are talking about DC. I agree.

[-]

TheSensiblePrepper@reddit

I would recommend you watch this video on the subject. It explains your options, from best to worst, in this situation.

Note that this video is from Canadian Prepper but he is talking with an expert on this subject.

[-]

appsecSme@reddit

Sure, other than cancer.

[-]

TheSensiblePrepper@reddit

Cancer from Radiation takes many years to form. That is why they tell people older than 40 years old to not even bother with Potassium IODIDE.

[-]

appsecSme@reddit

OK, great then. I kind of want to live many years, and even be cancer free when I die.

I also think that the studies from Fukushima and Chernobyl, are not completely relevant to the amount of radiation you might receive from nuclear weapons. Also, there are many other forms of cancer than thyroid cancer.

[-]

TheSensiblePrepper@reddit

I kind of want to live many years, and even be cancer free when I die.

If a Nuclear Weapon was to go off close enough to you that the radiation is something for you to be concerned about, you have more immediate concerns than dying old and cancer free.

I also think that the studies from Fukushima and Chernobyl, are not completely relevant to the amount of radiation you might receive from nuclear weapons.

Because the Radiation from a Nuclear Weapon is very different then the kind from a Nuclear Meltdown.

Look up how many people died from Radiation in Japan when those first two nuclear bombs were dropped and compared that to both Chernobyl and Fukushima. Very few people died from Radiation Poisoning in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Also, there are many other forms of cancer than thyroid cancer.

Absolutely and almost all of them take several years to form.

[-]

appsecSme@reddit

Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't anywhere close in scale to current weapns, nor were they thermonuclear.

[-]

Anon123445667@reddit

Thermonuclear weapons are much cleaner in terms of fallout.quote:Fusion doesn't actually create fallout. For example, the Tsar bomb was one of the cleanest nuclear weapons ever detonated, Wellerstein said, because its explosive force came from 97% fusion".https://www.businessinsider.com/hydrogen-bomb-vs-atomic-bomb-what-is-the-difference-2023-9

[-]

appsecSme@reddit

In theory they would be, but in reality they produce global fallout from the fission of the U-238 jacket that surrounds the fusion fuel.

Thermonuclear weapons are more accurately described as fission-fusion-fission bombs.

https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/devastating-effects-of-nuclear-weapons-war/

The two award-winning physicists in the linked article describe it well.

[-]

Anon123445667@reddit

Fukushima had 0 acute radiation sickness deaths and chernobyl had 30.Hiroshima and nagasaki had more.

[-]

ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

At one time I too thought this. And then I read where a few at Chernobyl absorbed so much Radioactive Iodine (I-131) their thyroid was emitting a lethal dose of radiation.

Much less of an issue with nuclear fallout (vs a reactor incident), but still a consideration. Balance that with KI taken improperly can do much more harm than good.

Much more concerned with Cesium-137 & Strontium-90 initially post-event...& after becoming resident in the food chain, etc afterwards.

[-]

popthestacks@reddit

What’s your plan to deal with the thousands of uncontrollable fires?

[-]

Holiday_Albatross441@reddit

Yeah, that's why it wouldn't make much sense to shelter from an event like that here in the suburbs. One house catches fire without a fire department to put it out and that fire will spread through the entire development.

[-]

Lost_inthot@reddit

Wait what

[-]

popthestacks@reddit

If a nuclear attack happens there will be thousands of really big explosions that cause massive fires across the entire country. Fire departments won’t be putting them out, they’ll be mostly dead or stuck in place. There’s a strong possibility no electronics (including fire trucks) work to get anywhere even if they were providing services.

There will be thousands and thousands of uncontrollable fires across the entire country with nothing to stop them. Many will die in the initial blasts, everyone else cowering in their homes thinking they can survive will die in a fire as the country burns for weeks on end.

[-]

AnitaResPrep@reddit

not the whole country (the heat wave is not so big in extension, unless you use undreds of nukes), but a city center, an harbour, or an industrial area blasted and burnt down by the nuke will trigger indeed such a fire (lasting for days and weeks under the debris) and air ground and phreatic pollution, that you will be bad ...

[-]

Lost_inthot@reddit

The more I find out the more it seems like it’s better to be taken out early

[-]

AnitaResPrep@reddit

and the smoke, the toxic debris from the blast, etc. ? think to wildfires burning down towns in USA Canada, and 9/11, and so on.

[-]

StaySafePlanning@reddit

Like other folks said, generally two weeks is a solid rule of thumb. It depends on local conditions at the time though. You may be able to move around more quickly or it may take a little longer. It's important to have a plan in place today so you are ready to react quickly in the moment. I have some personalized guides (tailored to responding to nuclear emergencies) on my website (same as my username), if you don't know where to start. There is already some solid advice in here you can start from. As far as geigers, I like the Better Geiger product. Not too expensive and gives a good range of readings. The radTriage cards are also useful, but less so than the Better Geiger. Having both can give differently useful types of information during an emergency.

[-]

WxxTX@reddit

Never travel, You have about 10min to stack books and boxes dirt on the dining table and around it, and get food and water.

[-]

nevermindjerk@reddit

Should I have all my supplies in the house vs in the garage given the garage is not truly sealed? Or would the couple minutes of exposure in the garage grabbing supplies be minimally evasive?

[-]

ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

This really depends on the fallout in your area. And why it is a good idea to have Dosimeters & a Survey Meter with a head outside of shelter. And CBRN PPE (Masks & Clothing).

[-]

TwentySevenAlpacas@reddit (OP)

Are you suggesting that you stay under the dining table surrounded by boxes of dirt and books (including above you) for a couple days? Like a makeshift shelter?

[-]

CollectiveJohn@reddit

This kind of shelter is a myth. Seal your windows, vents, and doors, fill your bathtubs and sinks, and turn off your central air.

[-]

Radtoo@reddit

It's not a myth. Simply put: Any kind of mass whatsoever attenuates gamma radiation (that would be coming from particles on your roof and the outside ground level through the walls). Books, food and water containers included. You can probably reduce exposure over a tenfold if not more if you make use of storage racks or sturdy tables above and around you.

[-]

AnitaResPrep@reddit

radiation from fall out is mostly ingested inhaled radioactive stuff. You dont have a huge level of dust sand ashes (radiactive) on your roof. But a far bigger amount of soot (toxic +++), chemicals, dangerous fibers from blastes structures and burnt down at high +++ temperatures.

[-]

bigkoi@reddit

Agreed. A shelter big enough for you to lie down in can save you. Just sit in there for 48 hours. After 48 hours, assuming the house is intact you can run to the bathroom or get a necessity and run back into your shelter. It's all about length of time for exposure. At a certain point it will be safe to roam the entire house as the fall out degrades.

[-]

Radtoo@reddit

You can handle bathroom needs for a week or two with either inexpensive plastic bags and bins (one to sit on, another to store is the national scheme here - it was decided this way because it needs basically no maintenance, is cheap, easy to inspect, and doesn't introduce any structural weaknesses into bunkers). And there are nicer camping toilets too.

Perhaps you as a prepper don't even need to run to the bathroom. Maybe you just put one of the bins outside.

[-]

Radtoo@reddit

Yes. Any mass counts.

If you don't have a nearby large concrete structure to sit somewhere near the bottom/middle of, or a cellar, then putting more objects with mass -and be they books- above you (rooftop may have radiation) helps.

Rule of thumb: IF you get no word, shelter about 3 days.

However it is NOT a fact that you will absolutely have serious fallout in your area. Maybe there is nothing. You want either a measurement device or -if you trust your authorities- just a radio so you have an additional chance to receive status information.

Also always something useful though unlike other videos it's not completely focused on the shelter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EueJrCJ0CcU

[-]

Middle-Classless@reddit

Why stack on the table.... is this to keep it safe to eat off of?

[-]

WxxTX@reddit

If you have no basement its the best you can do, You lay under it for at least 3 days.

.

[-]

LovePeaceTruth@reddit

If there is a basement and a bathroom in the basement, do we need to block the sink drain, shower drain, and toilet so nothing comes “up” through there, or can we use the plumbing?

[-]

Middle-Classless@reddit

The roof is an issue so put something above you in the closet for an extra layer of protection

[-]

AnitaResPrep@reddit

Everyone is focusing on fallout. Fallout (I dont speak of the immediate radiation from the flash) is not a bounded effect of a nule, and more from a modern nuke. Mostly happens from a ground level detonation (and yes there was and still up to now huge contamination in test sites of USSR, Sahra, Pacific, but from wrong tests, lack of precautions, and old designs). By itself, there is not a big amount at all of fissile material in a thermonuclear nuke (the fission is a first stage for the far biggest fusion), far less than in any nuclear reactor.

EMP effect (and even, a spatial test made by USA was a disaster due to the huge unexpected effects on upper level of space around Earth) is more interesting, and at the exception of terro, nukes are obsolete - missiles and drones of today are far less expensive, far more numerous and easy to produce and use, and are so accurate in targets, that they can destroy what you want.

That said, overlooked, totally, is the aftermath of a nuke on an urban - industrial area. Highest temperatures, fires, produce highly toxic components that will be on air from the damaged arera for months, and worse if public adminsitration overwhelmed. Only a single chemical storage or plant burnt down produce such things (experiences in last decade worldwide), and add the blast effect as at 9/11, multiplied by 100 ... A city in my country experienced pollution lingering for 12 months until the chemical storage was cleared (and it took 1 year to clean everything).

[-]

LowerAd4865@reddit

I would rather just die

[-]

Background_Wear_1074@reddit

You don't want to travel because the roads will be so congested, car crashes, etc the risk of being stuck with out shelter is too great. You need a two way ham radio and a Geiger counter and don't wait until you need them to learn how to use them. Stock up on disposable hospital gowns and shoe covers or other hazmat style disposable clothing if you can afford it. Let no one into your house without screening them for radiation first. Tape all air leaks and around doors and any poorly sealed windows. Pray the wind doesn't blow from the source in your direction and that it doesn't rain. You need a gun (a shotgun is best for home defense) and at least 2 to 3 months supply of food and water, a propane stove you can cook on, a camping lantern and fuel and candles. This is just the bare minimum. Few of us would survive an all out nuclear war. There will be no electric or water services or cellphone.

[-]

bluetuber34@reddit

While taping airflow spots keeps out radiation, wouldn’t this be also blocking oxygen if your home is small?

[-]

J701PR4@reddit

It would reduce it, yes.

[-]

Background_Wear_1074@reddit

No house is that airtight. You just need to do this until outside radiation levels are below serious threat levels. You can buy dosimeter cards from Amazon that you wear all the time and they will tell you what your total accumulated radiation dose is but NOT what the current radiation level is - you need a ginger counter for that. These cards run around $21.50

[-]

J701PR4@reddit

Yep. Other than a flood or hurricane or a devastating event very close by, you want to stay in place until the initial panic dies down.

[-]

Huge_Wonder5911@reddit

First 72 hours would be critical to not be outside. You could travel afterwards but just decontaminate as much as possible. Travis AFB would get hit with both air and surface blasts so you would have considerable fallout (depending on the prevailing winds). Personally, I keep 72 hours worth of supplies at work just in case the SHTF and I am working (the most likely scenario)…if you want to run a scenario: https://www.nuclearwarmap.com/targetlist.html Depending on where you live in Sacramento, it may not matter

[-]

Clever_Commentary@reddit

Yeah. I live within a few miles of the center of one of the nation's larger metropolitan areas. Barring some really bad failures in guidance, I really don't need to worry about how long to shelter. At least aside from digging out a fairly deep bunker and sleeping in it, which falls heavily into "too much prepping" for me.

[-]

Maleficent_Bottle679@reddit

Thank you for all the great responses

[-]

Bolt_EV@reddit

Watch the British TV movie “Threads” (1984)

Tells it like it is; more accurately than the US TV movie “The Day After”

[-]

MmeLaRue@reddit

The one element in the UK civil defence materials and media that distinguishes it from that produced from the US (or even in Canada), is the lack of muscle memory in preparedness. Americans and, to some extent, Canadians are familiar with the old "Duck and Cover" mantra, for example. The information about nuclear deterrence, nuclear fallout and civil defense has been drilled into us to such an extent from the 1950s into the 1980s that even now most of us would know what to do and would do it without a second thought.

The UK never embarked on that level of civil defence preparation; its own office of Civil Defence was disbanded in 1968 and a decade later, the budget allocated for civil defence measures equaled 50p per capita, in a country at the time with a population of 40 million. In the US, it was promised that governments would be able to muster resources to provide help and to guide recovery efforts. In the UK, no such promise was ever made.

[-]

D1rtyH1ppy@reddit

Sac would be completely destroyed. No one would be alive to shelter in place.

[-]

hope-luminescence@reddit

It may be anywhere from not at all to about two weeks.

Ideally you have a good radiation meter (many radiation meters that are fine for science and detecting contaminated food are no good for intense life-threatening radiation). If not... Hopefully public authorities will radio when it is safe.

[-]

lysdexic_speedreader@reddit

Howdy neighbor. My plan would be to sit tight and shelter in place; assuming we're able too.

[-]

Afraid-Service-8361@reddit

airbrush 2 weeks possibly groundnuts

1000 years

pickled nuclear bomb 100,000 years

depends on if the opposing forc3s want a permanent glow for the survivors or just wants to tenderize them a little

you won't know till it's too late anyways so

dig in minimum 2 weeks

limit outside exposure and dust for a year afterwards have fun and when the cockroaches get full size and fly try aiming for the wings w a shot gun since headsets don't slow them down if we can keep them on the ground they taste like chicken sorry serious subject but I love the fallout premise

[-]

ResolutionMaterial81@reddit

Best not to guess....7/10 is a "rule of thumb" & doesn't take into account LOTS of variables.

With that in mind; best to have radiological detection equipment capable of measuring Alpha/Beta/Gamma, CBRN PPE, a decent knowledge base, radiological meds, a 1000+ PF Fallout Shelter, etc.

[-]

HazMatsMan@reddit

Nuclear weapon fallout, doesn't have a half-life in the traditional sense because it's an ever-changing mixture of dozens of elements, all with their own half-lives. So, a rule of thumb called the 7-10 Rule of Thumb was created to approximate how quickly the radiation decreases. It states:

For every 7-fold passage of time, the intensity of the radiation will decrease by a factor of ten. This means if you measure the radiation levels at say, 1 hour after fallout arrives then measure it again 7 hours later, it will be 1/10th as intense. After another 7-fold amount of time (49 hours) it'll be 1/100th, after another 7-fold... which is 343 hours or \~2 Weeks, it'll be 1/1000th.

Unfortunately, if you don't know what the radiation levels are at any point... there's no way to know if it's safe enough to travel. In which case you should wait the full 2 weeks.

[-]

CarelessOrder5150@reddit

Here's the catch, in Sac we would have 3 main exits, when, not if, when they "clog" your either on foot or staying in the valley. I personally would rather bail than be stuck.

[-]

emp-cme@reddit

"We are wondering if it makes sense to shelter in place until the half life of the radioactive particles decays enough to make it safe enough to travel..."

Yes. How long depends on how much fallout. You need some type of Geiger counter, and awareness of weather patterns to know if you're actually downwind of any sites hit. Also, probably the only way to know would be radio, so having something in a Faraday cage would be needed. If anyone in your group is under 40, get potassium iodide tablets (look for iOSAT) to help prevent thyroid cancer down the road. Some govt guides:

BE PREPARED FOR A NUCLEAR EXPLOSION

Hour Nuclear Response Guidance

Emergency Preparedness & Response | NRC.gov

[-]