Senators want Biden administration to back hiking mandatory pilot retirement age

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lil_layne@reddit

It’s funny how pretty much no one wants this from the public to like 95% of pilots. The only people I have heard to support are pilots who are at the top seniority at their major airlines. And those pilot have plenty of money that they can afford to retire at 65 and enjoy their life. It’s just pure greed.

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bdc41@reddit

I don’t know if it’s greed, I like the above excuse divorces (with the s).

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prex10@reddit

Because congressman have brother in laws at Delta who are approaching 65. That's why this gets pushed.

No really, that's why.

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BringPopcorn@reddit

It's seriously crazy... that dude's brother-in-law is going to get the law changed or influence international policy so he can get another 5 years...

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SeeYa90@reddit

Makes 100% sense and am not surprised one bit

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TurbulentSir7@reddit

What’s the benefit of doing this in their eyes? Just so these old pilots get 2 years more worth of pay?

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bdc41@reddit

It’s to screw the next generation of pilots.

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Milton__Obote@reddit

Honestly let’s do the opposite. If you can’t be trusted with 200 lives at 65, you certainly can’t be trusted with the lives of an entire country. Mandatory retirement age for politicians please.

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bdc41@reddit

Just turned 70, you have my vote. While you’re at it if you don’t balance the budget for two years you can’t run again, forever.

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findquasar@reddit

I don’t know one American who doesn’t support this.

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Quick_Cup_1290@reddit

Fuck I love this idea sooooo much.

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cjonesaf@reddit

Term limits. I’m all for it.

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TriGurl@reddit

How about we start with preventing octogenarian's from being president??

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bdc41@reddit

As someone that just turned 70, I personally think that if you have a retirement age of 67 or 68 then that should define the maximum age for a president.

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LDiablo9@reddit

I guess I’m the oddball, if my house is in order I’m fucking off at 62 and taking SS the second I can. I’d rather not be sitting in a hotel at 64 and 364 days old. Granted I don’t have any ex wives and my toys are paid off so that helps.

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goonsquad4357@reddit

Some people just love to fly

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SilverMarmotAviator@reddit

Buy yourself an airplane and GTFO of 121 ops

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Grand-Amphibian-3887@reddit

I love to fly and instruct in the 767. Should I just go buy one?

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biggy-cheese03@reddit

Start loving something else that won’t bring down 200 people with you. The most important go/no go decision a pilot can make is knowing when to retire

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goonsquad4357@reddit

When has there been a major aviation accident relating solely to a pilot’s age? I’ll wait.

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rogerdoesnotmeanyes@reddit

So you're basically asking why there hasn't any crashes caused by an over 65 year old airline pilot yet? That's like me deciding to stop going to the gas station because I've never run out of gas on the side of the road. There might be a chance there's a causal connection to having an age limit and not having crashes as the result of people who exceed the limit...

What's your solution? Should we just keep raising the age limit until we get a major crash and then go back one year and set it that way?

accident relating solely to...

Because as everyone knows, plane crashes typically just have one single cause and there are no famous cheese-based metaphors about how multiple different actions and situations coalesce to cause an accident. /s

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Grand-Amphibian-3887@reddit

Really, isn't the why we are fighting against single pilot ops? How many planes have been lost because 1 pilot of any age became incapacitated? Do some research first next time.

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rik11@reddit

How many crashes or undesired aircraft states were prevented when the pilot monitoring took control or spoke up?

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birdiemcwhirtie@reddit

You can still instruct in the 767

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Grand-Amphibian-3887@reddit

If I am not flying for an airline? I haven't seen too many FBO's renting a 767 for the afternoon.

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Former_Farm_3618@reddit

Same. If I do, the rates gonna be pretty pricey….But I’m sure some sim gig somewhere is hiring retired airline guys to instruct.

What’s the glamor in working when you’re so old. Why not just retire and live life to the fullest? Why work and deal with all that when you could easily retire when you’re 60 or even 55 !

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Weird-Somewhere-8198@reddit

Do you instruct in the airplane?

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Grand-Amphibian-3887@reddit

I do...for the last 14 yrs.

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precense_@reddit

pylotes really are the biggest nerds

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LDiablo9@reddit

And I do as well! If I had to work a regular 9-5 and sit in traffic twice a day it would make me crazy. I also appreciate the finite time we have on this planet and have a persona outside of aviation so I'm out as soon as I'm able. There's a lot of money to be turned down but there's also only so much you can spend and unfortunately you can't buy time. (for reference I'm early 40's top 25% legacy FO living in base If it matters in the discussion)

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Inevitable_Cook_1423@reddit

I did better. My airline offered an early out program during Covid. I left at 60 and have been collecting a six figure salary for flying a couch for the last four years.

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salty392@reddit

You are absolutely not the oddball in this conversation.

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Lonely_Survey5929@reddit

Same I will retire as soon as I realistically can. Even earlier than 60 if I can retire off savings and real estate investments

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badmocoacoa@reddit

What kind of toys?

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Helpful_Corn-@reddit

Some people just love money and feeling important.

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StangViper88@reddit

This is never going to go away. 67, then in a few years, 70, 75 etc.

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goestowhat@reddit

I don’t see how the airlines would want this. Aren’t younger pilots with less experience cheaper bc you don’t have to pay them as much?

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hockeythug@reddit

They don’t. It’s a group of older pilots that hired lobbyists to push for this change so they can keep their high earnings longer. They are trying to push there still is a pilot shortage to try and railroad it though.

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StangViper88@reddit

Meanwhile there are 400 spirit pilots being furloughed. Talk about union brotherhood 🙄

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Red-Truck-Steam@reddit

100 years or bust!

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ChicagoPilot@reddit (OP)

Here we go again. There is once again a push in Congress to raise the retirement age for part 121 (airline) pilots in the US from 65-67. The last effort was defeated in committee earlier this year. This effort seems directed at urging President Biden to press ICAO to review its mandatory age 65 retirement.

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rkba260@reddit

Because Biden is the beacon of mental acuity in the elderly...

We really need to shut this down once and for all.

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outworlder@reddit

Are there any elderly politicians that are "beacons of mental acuity"? Maybe Bernie but he doesn't have the agenda of a president, so not apples to apples.

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rogerdoesnotmeanyes@reddit

elderly politicians

Are there other kinds at this point? /s

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dopexile@reddit

Biden is as sharp as a nail, his young staffers have trouble keeping up with his energy!

Source: Mainstream media

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JAMONLEE@reddit

He actually is, yall are just brainwashed to believe he isn’t and are incapable of perceiving it.

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ASAPdUrmom@reddit

Saying Biden is a pillar of mental acuity and having a mask in your avatar. You need your medical to be reviewed

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JAMONLEE@reddit

Are you available? I didn’t realize you were also a doctor. That is an impressive career!

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ASAPdUrmom@reddit

CRM is awesome because I don't have to fly with the mentally ill like you very often

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JAMONLEE@reddit

Haha you certainly wouldn’t when I was the PIC that’s for sure. It’s weird you’re so sensitive over an online avatar, don’t worry it’s certainly cooler the more you dig in. I encourage you to keep going

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ASAPdUrmom@reddit

Haha oh no please don't report me! What ever would I do?? I'm sure you've used that line on the flight deck more than once.

"if you don't call me by my pronouns 1 more time I'm going to report you!"

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JAMONLEE@reddit

I think you could stop with this harassment which violates the subreddit rules and get back on topic.

Again this is horrible behavior for a captain or copilot. You’re obviously not open to constructive criticism on here but you’ll receive it when you don’t have a choice I have no doubt.

Yes I do speak up when a member of my crew is doing something like this, happy to discuss further

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ASAPdUrmom@reddit

Harassment? You are softer than baby shit lol...

Also, I absolutely nailed it with my mask/Biden/pronouns/HR call. Just amazing.

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rkba260@reddit

I don't believe he/she is a pilot. Thr fact that they used pilot/copilot plus their post history... just a passer through

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JAMONLEE@reddit

I don’t think my qualification level is determined by your belief, let me ask my DPE

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ASAPdUrmom@reddit

Saying "DPE" further confirms you've never been a crew member on a flight deck..

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JAMONLEE@reddit

I’m not sure why it matters either way. I can certainly tell you I haven’t seen a lot of ERJ captains who are so vocal. Great mentality to have for your eventual upgrade! They’ll love you at the interview

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GooseMcGooseFace@reddit

Dude’s got pro standards on speed dial.

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ASAPdUrmom@reddit

Single handedly keeping the pro-stan committee employed

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rkba260@reddit

You sound dumb.

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JAMONLEE@reddit

Ok

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ertri@reddit

takes a bite out of a block of Kerrygold

“We can raise the age?”

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mild-blue-yonder@reddit

I’ve never considered biting butter until today. Im gonna do it.

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LightPilotLifeguard@reddit

Let us know if you have updates

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mild-blue-yonder@reddit

Was good. Life changing. Gonna do it more often.

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cjonesaf@reddit

I’ve known keto eaters who do this on occasion. Hey, at least it’s kerrygold, and not like land o lakes or something

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Helpful_Corn-@reddit

Unfortunately, the only thing that might shut it down semi-permanently would be a fatal accident caused by a pilot over 65. But I don't think even that would hold it back for long. There is a general push to increase retirement age across the board. Plus, the ones who specifically want to raise pilot retirement ages have lots of money and free time.

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imlooking4agirl@reddit

Unfortunately I think you’re right. It would take a serious accident for it to be held off, and even then I’m sure that would be temporary. And the people pushing for it are probably the same ones looking to approve the “single pilot cockpit” aircraft certifications coming in a few years.

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JasperinWaynesville@reddit

ICAO Annex 1 - Personnel Licensing

2.1.10 Limitation of privileges of pilots who have attained their 60th birthday and curtailment of privileges of pilots who have attained their 65th birthday

A Contracting State, having issued pilot licences, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the licence holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot, their 65th birthday

Biden? Press ICAO? Sorry Joe best send kamala (even though she's probably never heard of Montreal)

Hell, he can' find his way to a photo op at a G20 meeting,. I doubt if he even knows what ICAO is or where it's located.

Sorry Senators, age 65 and ICAO annex 1 and FAR 121.383(e) are here to stay for awhile.

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oioioifuckingoi@reddit

Today you learned: Harris lived in Montreal for five years as a kid.

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jet-setting@reddit

Neat, tell that to Canada who allows pilots to fly until age 71….

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JasperinWaynesville@reddit

Yes. Canada does allow 71 and has published a difference in Annex 1. All that due the Canadian Human Rights Act which bars mandatory retirement in federal regulated jurisdictions such as banking, transportation and telecommunications which went into effect on Dec. 15, 2012. Not sure what the other states are doing except for the U.S.

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cjonesaf@reddit

I think you’re missing the point, the whole idea here is to get ICAO on board to change this rule.

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JasperinWaynesville@reddit

ICAO is not, IMHO, going to get on board and change the Age 65 SARP (at least anytime soon). Member States are, of course, free to establish any age they want and ICAO simply publishes the States differences in the Annex 1 Differences Appendix. The U.S. is the biggest publisher of differences:

An age related restriction differences in Chap 2.1 of the SARP/AIP is Age 65 related. Some countries limit all for hire operations to pilots under 65. Others, like Canada, allow pilots to fly until age 71 with certain restrictions. The ICAO Annex 1 difference for the U.S. states the The United States currently limits all 14 CFR part 121 operations to age 65 but has no age restriction on all other commercial air transport operations (such as 14 CFR part 135 operations).

About 2 years ago IATA tried to convince ICAO to revisit the age issue.
https://www.flightglobal.com/safety/iata-to-press-for-icao-review-of-pilot-upper-age-limits/149835.article

Just this past August (2023) ICAO began formal action directed at raising or eliminating the institution’s recommended age limit of 65 years OR remove all age restrictions from Annex 1 and let the States decide. That document can be read here:

https://www.icao.int/Meetings/anconf14/Documents/WP/wp_106_en.pdf#search=an%2Dconf%2F14%2Dwp%2F106

But then you probably knew all that. In any case I think it will be awhile before Annex 1 is changed.

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primalbluewolf@reddit

To be fair, two issues with that.

One, wouldn't be the first or last time the US flouted its international treaty obligations.

Two, it only curtails international operations anyway. So permitting national ops within CONUS wouldn't be in breach anyway.

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SilverMarmotAviator@reddit

Yes, because in this situation Kamala is the dumb one… 🤦‍♂️

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AviatingArin@reddit

The easy thing to do would be making a visa program specific for pilots that hold valid ICAO ATPL. But looking at the new administration that’s even more unlikely

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bottomfeeder52@reddit

not only should we raise the pilot age to above standard retirement age but we should cut the amount of pilots in the cockpit in half to single pilot operations. what could go wrong?

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Oregon-Pilot@reddit

Haven't you heard? Its the age of fuck you, as long as I get mine

Who cares about safety when there is money to be made for a select few?

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cjonesaf@reddit

A little hypocritical, don’t you think? Because you are clearly mad that you can’t get “yours”. You aren’t entitled to anything in this industry. That’s lesson number one.

That being said, I’m not in favor of 67 either. I just find it interesting that so many of you are mad about it and calling them selfish for doing the same thing you and we are all doing - trying to get and keep the best jobs we can.

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Oregon-Pilot@reddit

lol I am 31 at a legacy, so I have just as good of odds of doing well in this career as anyone can have. So you're wrong; I am not mad about that.

What I don't want is some geriatric 67 year old geezer at the controls when he shits his pants. I want younger humans who are statistically healthier to be running things up front. 65 is already pushing it. We don't need 67 just because the good old boys want a couple more years on the gravy train, or because they've prioritized work and making money over everything else in their life and now have no personal life and no one to spend time with when they are forced to retire. The well being of the hundreds of people in the back is more important than their fear of irrelevancy.

If flying jets means that much to someone, there are plenty of opportunities in the corporate world for that.

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findquasar@reddit

Okay, but which approach is better for the pilot supply:

1) causing massive displacements and retraining at great expense to the airlines who do international flying so that pilots who aren’t needed due to decreased pilot demand and increased supply and who are only available to work 65% of the time can continue to work, while stopping up the hiring pipeline for a few years to deal with this mess

Or

2) continuing to follow the rules set by the international governing body for aviation, which also happens to contribute to there being well-paying jobs and career progression for those who have to bankroll their own training and experience-building through payment with money or military service, and pilots will continue to enter the industry due to there being jobs available

I know you said you’re anti-67, but realistically, which argument is better for the industry as a whole?

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cjonesaf@reddit

Kind of a nothingburger. It’s notable because the US raising the retirement without ICAO also raising it also makes age 65-67 pilots useless in the US. So there’s that.

Also slightly ironic that they’re asking support from an administration that had to bail out of a re-election campaign because of age-related fitness for continued office.

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findquasar@reddit

It’s not a nothingburger.

65-67 pilots would be useless outside of CONUS, but not within it, which would trigger massive amounts of retraining, displacements, not to mention stalling hiring for years due to everyone gumming up the sims.

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Drunkenaviator@reddit

Hahahaha, I want to see one of those senior widebody drivers go do a 5 leg day in a 717/A320. They'd retire before they were off IOE.

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findquasar@reddit

If they’re senior enough to be WB CAs, they’re probably senior enough to do day trips and transcon overnights. Just RIP everyone else’s QOL, including the senior FOs who have to babysit while they fall asleep during a 6:30 flight in the winter.

But also, yeah. Definitely a different world without catering and a bunk.

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cjonesaf@reddit

Exactly. And the legacy US carriers are influential enough that they don’t want to deal with this, so it won’t happen unless ICAO does it too. Because if ICAO doesn’t, the change will make the problem they are trying to address even worse.

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findquasar@reddit

There’s nothing stopping the Republicans from rubber-stamping US age 67 next year as a gift to Congressman Nehls’ brother, though.

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cjonesaf@reddit

I doubt it. Until ICAO gets on board, this won’t pass. Airline and union lobbies will see to it. Once ICAO gets on board, which they likely will eventually, then it’ll be a different conversation.

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findquasar@reddit

I wish I shared your optimism, but I flat out do not.

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cjonesaf@reddit

Time will tell; perhaps I’m wrong. It wouldn’t be the first time lol. All I know is that in this industry - like most - money talks. There is no financial benefit to the big airlines in this without ICAO buy in; it would be a big training and operational disaster.

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findquasar@reddit

To the big 3 and now Halaska, sure, but Mark Kelly, for example, would be there at the behest of A4A because Mesa is on the brink, and those are AZ jobs. The regionals and ULCCs aligned with A4A and whatever that other org is that has Frontier in it would like to cause pain to airlines that aren’t single-fleet.

There is money on both sides of this argument.

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cjonesaf@reddit

Not to mention that the hiring wave is drying up in the next five years anyway. Then this whole discussion is moot.

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findquasar@reddit

Well hell, why make it 5 years when you can have another lost decade?

/s

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Joe_Littles@reddit

I mean according to half this sub those of us not yet at legacies are in for another lost decade lol so

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cjonesaf@reddit

Ugh. Let’s hope not.

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WoozyWinx@reddit

This!

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cjonesaf@reddit

Mesa and all most all of the regionals survive because of the big-3. They talk a big game, but they’ll toe the line when the big dogs bark. They usually do.

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Donzul@reddit

No thank you. I'm tired of flying with them.

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cjonesaf@reddit

So was I. So I upgraded. Much happier now.

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2ndSegmentClimb@reddit

Trust me, I want out and away from a lot of you as much as you want away from me. Pleaseeeee don’t make me stay any longer!!!

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Donzul@reddit

Right? You'd have to force me to stay until 65 lol. I want to be done as soon as possible and enjoy life.

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WorkingOnPPL@reddit

I know my opinion is not going to be popular, but if the pilot is healthy, fully competent, and has a good service record with their company, then I support them being allowed to keep working for a few more years.

If a pilot’s opposition to this is: “fck you and fck them, I want my left seat upgrade now!”….I don’t think it reflects great on that pilot on a human level.

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PWJT8D@reddit

Nah, piss off and retire. You don’t get to pull the ladder up just because everyone in front of you retired.

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ChicagoPilot@reddit (OP)

How many medicals have you had to go through? Are you at all familiar with the term “pilot-friendly AME”?

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WorkingOnPPL@reddit

I am not familiar, no.

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ChicagoPilot@reddit (OP)

There are AMEs out there who are known for having easy first class exams, and they are very well known within the airlines. The exams are borderline a joke, some even as easy as “yeah man, I talked to the guy about cars for 20 mins and he gave me a cert at the end of it. No questions asked”. I don’t trust any additional screening to weed some of these guys out when there’s AMEs out there literally looking the other way.

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Donzul@reddit

I just had mine and tried a new ame. It was a jooooke. He just complained about the woke left and took my money and signed the paper.

+65 maybe if they had an actual RIGOROUS medical process at that age. Or any age really. It's crazy how lax most are.

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theoriginalturk@reddit

Not that I support age 67: but that begs the question of what about all the other pilots getting certs from those “pilot friendly AMEs”

It’s fairly regular for people on here and RTAG to advise non-disclosure of medical conditions

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prex10@reddit

My 94 year old grandma would likely pass a first class medical. I'm not even joking.

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LaggingIndicator@reddit

Great idea, let’s add a pacer test or sub 35 minute 5k or something like that to the medical.

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PWJT8D@reddit

Nah, the boomers can fuck off and retire already.

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JimLeylandsCiggies@reddit

Get out of my seat

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cjonesaf@reddit

It’s not your seat.

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SeeYa90@reddit

So 3.5 republicans and 1 democrat

Interesting

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cjonesaf@reddit

As much as Reddit is a democrat echo chamber, and anything republican is the root of all evil - the house vote that passed this last year was something like 350 in favor to 60-some opposed. So this is not a red/blue thing. Pretty sure there aren’t 350 republicans in the house.

Email your congress person and let them know you are opposed to this. I do every time it comes up.

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MNtwinsfanatic@reddit

Could you imagine single pilot ops on an A321 for a 67 year old… holy fuck that’s a recipe for disaster.

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Wingnut150@reddit

Thought we already killed this half-assed idea

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grumpycfi@reddit

It will literally never go away. The only defense we have is to continually stay engaged with the process, the unions, and frankly throw money at the various PACs or other organizations that do our lobbying.

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