Seeking Advice: Accelerated vs. Part 61 Flight Training Path

[-]

tits_and_GTFO@reddit

Save $150k first. Then start training.

[-]

Imaginary-Term2235@reddit (OP)

hmmm why do you say that? I have been out of college for a year and have saved 20K. If I want to do this as a career I should start school and follow my dream to complete this and make it a career. I know the loans for this are expensive, but if i wait until I have all the money to pay for it I would pribably be in my 30's and I feel like that would really be too late.

[-]

tits_and_GTFO@reddit

I was in your place once too, although your pursuit in aviation is more aligned for a full time career. It’s a different route, but I chose to save a lot through my college degree and then pay for all training out of pocket. No debt, and I can choose to continue with either one.

[-]

21MPH21@reddit

Can't reply to the OP question about why they need to go this route so I'll reply here because we're getting ready to push.

There is a huge debate on whether it's better to pay for your ratings as you go / have it saved up v. take out a loan

I took out the loan. Tough decision but it worked for me.

IMHO it would be a ton easier decision in today's six-figure FO environment.

[-]

vtjohnhurt@reddit

I’ve decided I want to pursue a career as a pilot.'

There's a fair chance that you will change your mind during PPL training. Take 2-3 lessons a week at a Mom and Pop operation and see how it goes. You'll be 'hooked' until you solo, then you'll come down from the adrenaline high, and be able to soberly consider your options. You should not have to 'Tough it out' PPL. In the right circumstances, any monkey can pass PPL checkride, it's not a matter of being 'able to do it', but whether you'll actually be happy doing it.

[-]

AGroAllDay@reddit

Absolutely stay away from AeroGuard and ATP. I went to AeroGuard at KCHD and it’s just like ATP; they don’t care and just want money.

However, if you do want a good part 61, I highly recommend Eastin Aviation at KFFZ. Brent is the man

[-]

Imaginary-Term2235@reddit (OP)

Thanks will look into eastin aviation!

[-]

butthole_lipliner@reddit

Second what this dude said, have also heard decent things about Red Rock at FFZ

[-]

jumpseat320@reddit

Part 61 all the way , schedule 3 times/week. Hit the books right from day 1. You can make this accelerated by flying everyday but you need time to absorb what you just learnt as well so 2-3/week is the best.

[-]

grumpycfi@reddit

Just FYI a lot of these big schools, especially ATP, aren't showing "drop out" rates they're showing you people they've just straight up kicked out. Don't let the grindset cope bullshit fool you. They suck.

[-]

Flying_in_place@reddit

Fly 3X/week and study ground for an hour a day.

[-]

Curious-Owl6098@reddit

Like others have said… I wouldn’t recommend the loans. I have a sibling that went to atp. 130k in debt. Hated pretty much every minute of it but they got all the ratings except for CFI. They did find a low time job but it’s not enough to pay off the loan. But they now have solidified living with my parents till probably 45-50 years old or forever cause of that loan (I’m not joking) due to their age when they started and their current finances when they took on debt.

I’d recommend flying more in the private stage. 3 to 4 times a week if you can. Then maybe once you have the basics down you can slow it down a bit due to funds. I’ve self funded all my training so far which is a little over a 100 hours. I’m around your age. It sucks ass balancing it with working a ton to earn a living but Ive done one rating and I’m doing more. I got my private in around 5 months. Which is not much slower if at all slower than the “accelerated” programs. It can be done and you can walk away without owing someone at the end

[-]

Imaginary-Term2235@reddit (OP)

do you have an 8-5 job right now? when are you finding the time to fly?

[-]

RaiseTheDed@reddit

Find my other posts:

ATP Flight School

College Aviation Programs

USING UNSECURED LOANS FOR FLIGHT TRAINING

You can find an up to date version of this comment here.

Everyone here says the same thing: avoid debt at all costs. Now, let's see why. Say that school wants a 100k for the program. What are current interest rates right now for an unsecured loan? Around 13-17%. I can't remember the term lengths of these loans, but you'll be paying around 2k a month to repay them, and you'll probably accrue 150k of interest alone. And since these loans aren't federally subsidized, you're going to start paying them immediately (smaller at first, as they are usually send the money in chunks).

Now, say you get the loan, get your CFI, and get hired to instruct (keep in mind, some people can't get hired as one, even if your school "guarantees" hiring you). You have a $2,000 a month loan payment to make, along with paying to live. A CFI makes 40-50k a year if you're lucky and work your ass off. 50k is just above 4k a month, before taxes. You'll probably be left with around 3k after taxes, which leaves you with $1,000 to live off of. Now, that's if you're lucky and live in a place with good weather. I don't think I made more than 1k some months in the winter where I live. Unless you're living with your parents, 1k a month will probably not be enough to live off of. You'll have to compare your current finances to decide.

Now let's look at some other variables. What happens if you have a medical issue and can't fly? Still gotta pay the loans. Can't find a job? Still gotta pay the loans. Have a job but airplanes went into maintenance/weather prevents you from working? Still gotta pay the loans.

And you're going to be paying 250k at minimum by the term ends.

You're essentially buying a mortgage (with a really shitty APR). Just because you can get a loan, doesn't mean you should. You must plan for all variables that you can think of, so that you can 1: survive, and 2: pay the loan.

Also see this post from the FAQ

This post gives an example on a smaller loan for just private and instrument, you'd still be paying 100k at the end of the term.

This post is an example of a 70k loan.

This is an example of a 122k loan.

I just wanted to give you some perspective, and not trying to be a debbie downer. It works for some, but it can be absolutely devastating if anything happens. And what if we end up in a recession? Jobs are going to go away. You'll be stuck with a loan payment.

Also, I've seen posts here of people who can't get a loan, even with a cosigner.

[-]

Temporary-Fix9578@reddit

There’s always bankruptcy!

[-]

Inevitable_Street458@reddit

Are these loans classified as student loans? If so, no bankruptcy for you.

[-]

Temporary-Fix9578@reddit

Load up the credit cards and then go bankrupt

[-]

theoriginalturk@reddit

That’s actually why a lot of lenders won’t even lend for aviation training anymore

[-]

BraboBaggins@reddit

Dont do an accelerated program youll get screwed … part 61 and fly as often as possible, to get it done as quickly as possible.9

[-]

hutthuttindabutt@reddit

Part 61 but don’t slack, fly 3x/week.

[-]

PG67AW@reddit

And don't expect the first (or second or third) flying job to help pay off loans. Those are gonna carry for a while.

[-]

bottomfeeder52@reddit

this

[-]

downwiththemike@reddit

Have a look at the ‘Fly with Trent’ YouTube channel.

[-]

alphamonkey27@reddit

DO NOT GO TO ATP

[-]

TheRauk@reddit

Book a consultation with a AME to review 1st class medical and you, go from there. Good luck.

[-]

21MPH21@reddit

Great advice. Something disqualifying could pop up in the EKG

[-]

ltcterry@reddit

Why are you asking "accelerated vs Part 61"? The "pilot mill" "zero to hero" programs that "get you all your ratings" in \~1 year are all Part 61. All the degree programs people complain about are Part 141.

ATP *is* Part 61.

Clearly you are confused about what you are talking about. Get that sorted so you don't make any silly/expensive mistakes.

Don't go to ATP or similar.

The only reason places like ATP are "fast" is because you'll fly every day. The local flight school offers flight training every day. Just go do that. Private will cost you $18k instead of $30k, and there's probably not any lawsuits going on.

[-]

21MPH21@reddit

Fwiw, my pilot mill was 141. Friends was too. Not associated with a university

[-]

Imaginary-Term2235@reddit (OP)

Thanks for the callout there! Still learning and doing my exploring into this path.

[-]

ltcterry@reddit

There's a massive backlog of pilots ahead of you at the moment. Since cash is tight, consider doing initial Private, Commercial, and Instructor in a glider then instructing in a club. All these will segue right into the powered counterparts rather seamlessly. Gives you a huge head start, saves money, and might even make some of the future training a legit deduction on taxes. TBD.

Lots of gliding in AZ.

[-]

morane-saulnier@reddit

Plenty of good 61 places around the PHX area.

[-]

No-Driver2842@reddit

Do you have student loans already from the undergrad? If so for the love of God do not try and obtain more and put yourself in likely unsurvivable debt as it will take time to make the big bucks. If you can devote full time effort to part 61 that’s probably the best way to go. It will allow you flexibility in your training rather than being super regimented that may not be best for you but ymmv.

[-]

Imaginary-Term2235@reddit (OP)

luckily I have no student debt/loans. This would be my first time ever having to borrow money, but I would probably take them out through my family so my interet rates wouldn't be super high

[-]

No-Driver2842@reddit

Well that’s good. The biggest knock on loans is the insane rates so if your rates with family will be significantly lower then it wouldn’t be too terrible to borrow. ATP is still technically a 61 school but it is definitely more cut throat with little benefit IMO but there are tons of threads of ATP v mom and pop.

[-]

flyingron@reddit

Read carefully what you are signing up for. Accelerated and part 61 are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And a lot people even in 141 schools take more than 40 hours so the 5 hour savings is often lost.

[-]

Anthem00@reddit

you can go just as fast at a part 61 school as a part 141 (or ATP which is a 61 that operates like a 141). The only difference is that 141 schools frequently have loans available at pretty high rates and part 61 operators /generally/ dont deal with loans.

If I were you, I would take a discovery flight. I would save up 12-15K and keep saving and go for my PPL. Once you have that - then you can determine how best to fund and get through your other ratings. The quit rate at PPL is over 80%. So until you are past and know that that is what you want - get that first and out of the way on your own dime.

And at the current moment, if you got your CFI and 150K in loans, right now you would be hard pressed to find a CFI job that you will need for a couple years to build time. And the interest rates and principal on the loans would cripple you - even with a CFI job. Things can and will change, but thats the current state of the market right now. There is NO PILOT SHORTAGE - not at your level. Maybe for pilots with thousands of hours, but there is no shortage of inexperienced pilots.

[-]

rFlyingTower@reddit

This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:

Hi there!

I’m 24 years old and live in Scottsdale, AZ. I graduated from college with a Bachelor’s degree in Journalism over a year ago, and I’ve been working ever since.

Recently, I’ve decided I want to pursue a career as a pilot. Given my age, financial situation, and the fact that my parents won’t be covering the costs, I’d like to streamline the process as much as possible. My goal is to complete my training quickly so I can start working and paying off my student loans while supporting myself.

I’m considering options like accelerated programs (e.g., ATP or Aeroguard), but I’ve seen some concerning reviews, lawsuits associated with them, and high drop out rates. On the other hand, I know that starting with a Part 61 school or a smaller flight school might take longer, but it could be a more stable option.

If you were in my shoes, would you go for an accelerated program, or would you start with a Part 61 flight school and take a more gradual approach? Any advice or feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks so much for your time!

Please downvote this comment until it collapses.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. If you have any questions, please contact the mods of this subreddit.

[-]

AutoModerator@reddit

It looks like you're asking about getting a college degree.

A degree never hurts, get one if you can afford it. Whether it is required today or not, it may be required tomorrow. And the degree can be in anything, the major isn't that important.

Please read our FAQ, which has a ton of information and wisdom about becoming a pilot, including advice on college.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.