I like the idea behind the article, but one thing they miss on is actually showing what it looks like. We, as Linux users, take the desktop environment for granted. Windows users are often driven by it. Not showing often leads them to pictures of "scary terminals" in their minds. Need to show that it can look very much like Windows, especially with KDE.
We need more visual tutorials like "my day as Linux user" where it is just using the OS, showing some nifty tricks like doing things through the GUI, and then double it through the terminal.
And then tutorials like "Oh no, there is an issue with my Linux OS. Lets see how we can find the reason and fix it" that would involve nothing more than looking up the net at trusted sources, doing some things and voila. I think Linux is not just about "scary terminals", it is about the "fog of war" that people are simply clueless how things are going in the reality.
If it was the norm, then those tutorials would be completely useless for someone like me. It is extremely hard to follow a tutorial written that way. It is only preferable if that is the only way that you understand computers.
I'd prefer it was the exception. Or maybe throw in a "skip ahead to the terminal bit" and now here is the painful to follow menu menu menu method for the noobs.
i actually disagree, there’s a reason why CLI based tutorials are so popular, the main reason being consistency, with GUI, it wildly differs across different DE, something that applies to gnome for example would be completely useless for people using KDE or XFCE, whereas with CLI based settings, you often can just run the same command regardless of distro or DE (assuming you have the applications already installed)
The problem is that Linux is still a lot about editing some /etc/environment to make your game functional, or /etc/default/grub/ to set something for your GPU driver.. I think few "tips and tricks" like:
"Here is how you can turn on HDR using KDE Plasma.. and this is how you do that with a one liner through the terminal".
Basically, you show people what they want to know, but also give them a glance of other options, like if they want things done fast, direct and proper - the Linux way. You're still giving them everything they want, but not forcing it down their throat as the only option, increasing their "terminal tolerance".
Exactly that, the genuine biggest hurdle there is is getting someone to try it the first time. Once you’ve broken that it’s quickly obvious it’s a more than adequate replacement for windows.
To break that hurdle you need to tear down the preconceptions that it’s difficult or ‘elite’ to use it and the best way to do that is to show it in action. E.g running a game is opening steam, clicking download and then clicking play, not a long list of terminal commands.
Fairly new to windows, started using back in XP days, W10 was “perfect” It had easy to find settings or it will send you to control center, which is what I still use on w11 (not to forget w11 settings page localisation is a JOKE). I use debian on my OLD laptop as it cant handle windows anymore. I still end up searching through “apps” for a gui, only to end up back in terminal.
I used mint for a short while, other than a new window for basically every setting it did feel like it wanted to be gui friendly.
Microsoft aren’t perfect graphical shell (as they would say) designers. They aren’t perfect operating system designers. But what they have often got right is that you can do it all in the GUI. A much higher proportion of settings are exposed.
It might not be the most flexible way to design an interface but with the right tooling it’s easier than typing arcane commands into a terminal. Even with autocompletions etc most shells are not particularly good in terms of ergonomics.
The old generation maybe. More and more features are being removed from the new Windows that it's now a joke. Functionality like joystick calibration buried under an avalanche of menus, while pro features like MIDI mapping is gone from the OS completely.
Absolutely. Wtf are they thinking is beyond me, old XP/7 control panel is greatly reduced, I mean even in 10 you had to take extra hops to reach some settings and in 11 is much worse with some being omitted or I do not know easy way to reach it.
It's hard to find wifi passwords through settings. Need to go through variou steps just to see it. there are similar pages in new settings app but many options are missing similar to it.
Sure. I haven't used windows for more than a few hours in the last 5 years. But I think it still stands that you have to have the GUI to go beyond where Linux is now.
The GUI is also a joke. The settings menu is so stupid compared to Control Panel (which Microsoft is getting rid of because fuck the veterans I guess?). Looks like a 4 year old scribbling on white paper. Feels really devoid of any personality.
GNU/Linux desktop brings quality. It also brings limitations to what vendors offer their software and devices support - but as long as your needs are covered, you are likely to get better experience with GNU/Linux. That's something that matters.
Unless you are a software developer or a lawyer, you won't notice the software licenses at all. And the fact of being "free as in beer", while important, is not something people would connect with quality. Neither is connecting it with deprecated hardware. While current users are perfectly aware that such systems get you environment that is fully-featured and polished, that is something that needs way more focus when presenting it to potential new users.
And "Windows 10 old, Windows 11 bad" is the worst possible motivation out there. GNU/Linux doesn't need Windows to justify its existence. It's worth installing because it's good, Windows can be safely forgotten.
You've stumbled into what is actually a really old debate / flamewar in the Linux community, between those who prefer calling the collection of operating systems just "Linux", and those who prefer calling it "GNU/Linux" or "GNU+Linux". Generally the latter have been in the minority, but more people might be sympathetic to it where Android is also running the Linux kernel, but it's not the usual kind of Linux OS (OK, actually maybe Android is the most common Linux OS, and us using the desktop Linux distros are the weirdos). Ultimately it seems most people are comfortable just calling the desktop/laptop OS family "Linux", and the mobile OS "Android".
GNU for the desktop user means some significant libraries (like glibc) and a whole bunch of command-line tools; the ones the thread above is suggesting be avoided in this push as they're apparently scaring the Windows users. The Windows users likely need something more like KDE/Linux if you want to stick to a single slash, or KDE/Wayland/Pipewire/Systemd/GNU/Linux if lots of stuff needs to be mentioned.
The GNU/Linux name stems from a time where the GNU tools were a lot more central to how you used the computer. At this point I think glibc/Linux might be more indicative of the GNU tooling non-power-users use frequently. Most of the GNU software is kind of obscure today, and I wouldn't imagine that e.g. the GNUstep window manager is all that popular. These days you're likely to use curl rather than wget, might be using fish or zsh instead of bash for your daily driver shell, looking for stuff with rg rather grep, tmux rather than screen, stay the hell away from autoconf if you can, etc.
What people usually call linux, is actually only one part of the operating system. To be more specific Linux is the kernel so the thing that handles the communication with the hardware. Every other part of the operating system is coming from GNU.
So the alternative to windows or macos is not called Linux. But Gnu/Linux it's the pair of the two. But for simplicity, people only say Linux.
Gnu in itself is not really anything, you never download Gnu for exemple. Gnu is a combination of a lot of different software which all combined create an operating system. We are talking about thousand of different piece, most of them being used for only one specific function. For exemple you have one to move a file, one to list files in a directory etc.
And that's the beauty of Linux (Or Gnu/Linux) it's not a monolithic block. You can swap everything and replace them with alternatives. For decades we used pulseaudio to handle sounds, but recently an alternative showed up called pipewire. So we replaced
I don't think u/kansetsupanikku suggested using GNU instead of Linux. The suggestion was for GNU/Linux, which is what most of us are using. To make it very, very simple think of Linux as the kernel and GNU as the tools you use, i.e. coreutils and all that.
GNU's Not Unix, you should use it if you're a developer or if you care slightest about privacy, security, customizability and most importantly, ownership of your machine. Linux is a kernel, GNU/Linux is an operating system.
Except for the 'recommendations', untested updates, push for online accounts, killing of working apps in favor of broken ones, and all the other fun things that corporate greed gets you.
This is all things that also existed in Windows 10 and many in versions before Windows 10. Also all things that are trivial to bypass or ignore for those that care. AKA, nothing but nitpicks that average users wouldn't likely notice or care about.
In a response to the claim that it was an "abomination". Hyperbolic claims invite hyperbolic responses especially on this sub which seems to have almost a cultish attitude towards operating systems of all things.
Those nitpicks don’t make an operating system an “abomination”. No more so than complaints about the terminal or a lack of software makes Linux an abomination.
Except for the 'recommendations', untested updates, push for online accounts, killing of working apps in favor of broken ones, and all the other fun things that corporate greed gets you.
My new laptop came with win11. I was pleasantly surprised that it found and installed every driver it needed automatically. Thats a first for windows.
But then i saw all the bloatware, all the spyware and telemetry. Even using the debloat and antispy programs didnt help too much. And then it had an annoying feature where keys would repeat for no reason. Apparently its a common issue.
Immediately installed MX on a different partition and havent touched the windows one since.
The bloatware and spyware is honestly unchanged from windows 10. Might even be slightly less useless apps installed but whatever. I have no idea why this sub acts like it's something new. Of course the majority of bloatware and spyware I see is still inevitably manufacturer installed and not from M$.
Also in every single comment complaining about Win11, the person inevitably admits their lack of experience with regards to actually using it.
Ive worked with literally every version of windows since it has existed. Hated win8 and liked 10 even less, thats when i switched to linux completely.
Also in almost every single comment complaining about Win11, the person inevitably admits their lack of experience with regards to actually using it.
im not surprised with the amount of things they moved or removed. You shouldnt have to relearn everything when a new version drops. And considering its microsoft, I have absolutely no intention of doing so. Especially since hiding things behind options and menus is so prevalent on this version.
I also cant believe you're defending bloatware/spyware as if its in any way acceptable.
If you're having to "relearn everything" that honestly says more about you than it does Windows 11. The differences are so minor I'd have trouble actually listing most of them and it's entirely trivial to move the start menu back to the left or bring back the old right click menu. Anyone who installs linux should have the brains to do configure basic preferences in the settings menu so the only excuse for these sort of nitpick complaints is a religious like bias.
Bloatware and spyware is the inevitable reality of the modern world and chances are you're using a smartphone filled to the brim with more spyware than M$ could ever imagine. Double points if you're also using a free email or free cloud storage which also doubles as spyware. For all the complaints about spyware and telemetry, I've yet to see any evidence of exactly what the spyware does for M$. Best I can tell, it's fear mongering over fairly basic telemetry or people who don't know where to turn off personalized ads.
Now it would absolutely be better if we lived in a world where this wasn't the reality but we don't. Because I prefer reality, I see no reason to make my life harder than it has to be by exaggerating minor nitpicks about windows 11.
Best I can tell, it's fear mongering over fairly basic telemetry or people who don't know where to turn off personalized ads.
Its cool if you like backdoors and letting them know exactly what you do and what is on your pc. I dont. I also like the extra performance since its running only what I tell it to. Or to be able to actually customize it.
see no reason to make my life harder than it has to be by exaggerating minor nitpicks about windows 11.
The amount of things I cant do on linux is way shorter than the list of things I dislike about MS, so its an easy choice for me. I just prefer not using the Fox news of operating systems.
Nice straw man but that’s what I expect on this site. But it does go back to my point. It’s fear mongering without proof. There’s no evidence M$ knows exactly what you do on your computer. There’s a lot of accusations but those have been getting thrown around for over a decade with no substantial proof.
I also have yet to tell anyone what OS to use. I don’t care. But you should be honest about the reality rather than buy into a cult. Windows 11 is an excellent OS and has a long list of features and programs that aren’t available on Linux. Anyone with any practicality isn’t making an OS their personality but rather uses whatever the best tool is for the job.
I just prefer not using the Fox news of operating systems
"Search across time to find the content you need. Then, re-engage with it. With Recall, you have an explorable timeline of your PC’s past. Just describe how you remember it and Recall will retrieve the moment you saw it. Any photo, link, or message can be a fresh point to continue from. Snapshots of your screen will be saved only if you opt into the feature. If you opt in to the feature, then as you use your PC, a snapshot of your screen will be saved. Snapshots are taken periodically while content on the screen is different from the previous snapshot. Your snapshots are then locally stored and locally analyzed on your PC. Recall’s analysis allows you to search for content, including both images and text, using natural language. Trying to remember the name of the Korean restaurant your friend Alice mentioned? Just ask Recall and it retrieves both text and visual matches for your search, automatically sorted by how closely the results match your search. Recall can even take you back to the exact location of the item you saw."
"Edward Snowden publicly revealed the existence of PRISM through a series of classified documents leaked to journalists...The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program, including Microsoft in 2007, Yahoo! in 2008, Google in 2009, Facebook in 2009, Paltalk in 2009, YouTube in 2010, AOL in 2011, Skype in 2011 and Apple in 2012
Idk why you bothered to type all of that like I wasn’t already aware of it. But you’re literally posting on Reddit. Chances are you have other social media accounts which are also being spied on. You’re probably using an email provided by free from Google or one of the other major providers that comply with government requests and are also datamined by the providers as well. Same is true for cloud storage options. And worst of all is the modern bugging device known as a smartphone which you probably carry on your personal with convenient microphones, camera, and location data at any given time.
The point is that if you think you’re honestly avoiding spyware especially at the government level by not using windows then you’re just fooling yourself. Unless you’re one of the few individuals who chooses to forgo the convenience of the modern world in favor of true privacy, you’re just being a hypocrite by bitching about windows and statistically, those individuals aren’t on Reddit.
Idk why you bothered to type all of that like I wasn’t already aware of it.
You werent the one trying to tell me the backdoors dont exist? The whole fear-mongering without proof? Or this line below.
There’s a lot of accusations but those have been getting thrown around for over a decade with no substantial proof.
Like I gave and you rapidly changed the subject again.
My point for this whole thing is why would i want that spyware built into my operating system(what you're advocating for)?
I actually do avoid it as much as possible. Different email addresses for my phone(which i rarely carry anyway), dont use onedrive or gdrive, no outlook/skype/etc. My browsers have adblockers, scriptblockers, etc and im careful about cookies.
I know they're still mining data anyway, but im not going to make it even easier for them.
I never once said back doors don't exist. I said the complaints on this sub about M$ spyware are fear mongering. And I stand by that. The blow up over M$ Recall, the constant bitching about telemetry with every Windows revision, etc. It's all fear mongering since there's no evidence that M$ is doing anything outside of what I'd consider to be industry standard practices. I don't like those practices personally but Windows itself is the least of my concerns when it comes to privacy. It's trivial compared to the potential info stored in an email or accessible through a smartphone.
And I didn't change the subject either. That's just another strawman. I'm also not advocating for spyware (another strawman), I'm just being realistic about it's inevitable existence in the modern world and that the discussion around Windows 11 on this sub is foolish. Avoiding windows is not actually stopping the government or almost any company from spying and data mining.
I actually do avoid it as much as possible. Different email addresses for my phone(which i rarely carry anyway), dont use onedrive or gdrive, no outlook/skype/etc. My browsers have adblockers, scriptblockers, etc and im careful about cookies.
I know they're still mining data anyway, but im not going to make it even easier for them.
Good for you. But you're also aware of the fact that the overwhelming majority of people wont even go that far and selling them linux as a method to have a private life is dishonest. Like tossing a pebble in a river to stop the flow of information. If you actually cared about privacy then Windows 11 would be at the very bottom of the list of issues and you'd be starting by telling others how to get rid of their online lives first.
People on this sub use Windows 11 as a boogyman for a much larger issue to pretend they care about privacy. It's lip service to give themselves something to feel morally superior about while also being a hypocrite with their online lives and smartphones.
How is it fearmongering to point out what they're actively doing? And have been doing for almost 2 decades at this point. Your deflections do more damage than good since you're the one spreading misinformation.
And I didn't change the subject either. That's just another strawman.
"Show me proof"
Shows it
"Well Akshually...."
Avoiding windows is not actually stopping the government or almost any company from spying and data mining.
And using it gives them access easily. Not a hard concept. Limiting what they can do is the most we can do these days.
if you actually cared about privacy then Windows 11 would be at the very bottom of the list of issues and
its not about that, its about the fact there is zero privacy with MS.
For someone that complains about strawmans so much, you sure are fond of them.
To this point I’ve been trying to have a good faith discussion but I’m not sure you’re actually interested in such a thing. But we will give it one more shot so let’s backtrack a little bit and lay out some key points that might have gotten missed.
For starters, the discussion on privacy is simply NOT a one size fits all discussion. Discussion the concept of privacy at the level of corporate espionage is a vastly different discussion than what privacy means when dealing with government overreach. And all of that is a vastly different discussion than what privacy means to the average tech illiterate computer user. Can we perhaps accept that as a starting point? Maybe I should have been more clear in making sure we were on the same page here but I digress. At any rate most discussions on this forum happen in the context of the final group of people.
So with that in mind in what context is privacy being discussed here? Because we will probably agree more than we disagree. However you’re only enforcing my point about fear mongering by saying there is “no privacy with MS”. That’s simply not true.
So with that in mind in what context is privacy being discussed here?
None. We're discussing Microsoft and the lack of privacy in the newer OS's compared to Linux and its complete control. I'd mostly understand your attitude if this was in any subreddit except this one.
However you’re only enforcing my point about fear mongering by saying there is “no privacy with MS”. That’s simply not true.
PRISM literally disagrees with you. I even gave you links showing how microsoft leaked golden keys to win10, or how they built in backdoors for the NSA in outlook, and how they've been actively working with the NSA for almost 20 years. This is conspiracy-fact since Snowden.
This subreddit is the exact place this discussion needs to happen. Unless you honestly want this to just be a massive circlejerk of fools sniffing each others farts. Granted it already kinda is but recent events show that’s it’s probably not the best idea to ignore and ostracize any contrary opinion.
Prison does not prove that there is no privacy on windows. Again we go back to what level the discussion needs to happen at. For the average person, PRISIM means nothing. For the corporations, PRISIM means nothing, for those concerned about government overreach, PRISIM is a major issue. It’s an example of my earlier point about dishonest fear mongering.
Bloatware and spyware is the inevitable reality of the modern world
You're sitting smack dab in the middle of one of the most obvious examples of the opposite yet you made this asinine claim. And your choice to use other "services" that do the same thing and claim that makes it all ok is even more bonkers.
Yes and I stand by that claim. Especially with anyone on a site like Reddit. If you’re on any sort of social media or one of the vast majority of people that use the plethora of Google services you’re literally participating in the spyware regardless of what OS you have on the hardware. all this is stuff that you should probably be worrying about long before any theoretic windows spyware. That’s the reality of the modern world and unless you’re one of the few who do go the extra mile to avoid tracking, complaining about windows makes you look like a hypocrite.
OpenSUSE is significantly less user-friendly than Windows. If system is incompatible with Windows 11, Linux Mint is a more suitable alternative and ease to use and a smooth out-of-the-box experience, Linux Mint is a better fit. or Fedora.
ubuntu going downhill with snap and pro shenanigans
This is why these businesses do so well. They know their customers or potential customers will bend over backwards to use their products. I am not changing an operating system so I can subscribe to a service, much less one that doesn't let me own the content.
0riginal-Syn@reddit
I like the idea behind the article, but one thing they miss on is actually showing what it looks like. We, as Linux users, take the desktop environment for granted. Windows users are often driven by it. Not showing often leads them to pictures of "scary terminals" in their minds. Need to show that it can look very much like Windows, especially with KDE.
SiEgE-F1@reddit
We need more visual tutorials like "my day as Linux user" where it is just using the OS, showing some nifty tricks like doing things through the GUI, and then double it through the terminal.
And then tutorials like "Oh no, there is an issue with my Linux OS. Lets see how we can find the reason and fix it" that would involve nothing more than looking up the net at trusted sources, doing some things and voila. I think Linux is not just about "scary terminals", it is about the "fog of war" that people are simply clueless how things are going in the reality.
gatornatortater@reddit
If the goal is entice normies then I think that anything to do with the terminal should be dropped from the tutorial.
Zaphoidx@reddit
100%
GUI only tutorials need to become the norm, rather than the exception, to drive Linux adoption
gatornatortater@reddit
Only??? lol
Well... I disagree with that ';]
If it was the norm, then those tutorials would be completely useless for someone like me. It is extremely hard to follow a tutorial written that way. It is only preferable if that is the only way that you understand computers.
I'd prefer it was the exception. Or maybe throw in a "skip ahead to the terminal bit" and now here is the painful to follow menu menu menu method for the noobs.
Tywele@reddit
Not every tutorial needs to be targeted at everyone. A tutorial like this is just not intended for you or people like you.
D0nt3v3nA5k@reddit
i actually disagree, there’s a reason why CLI based tutorials are so popular, the main reason being consistency, with GUI, it wildly differs across different DE, something that applies to gnome for example would be completely useless for people using KDE or XFCE, whereas with CLI based settings, you often can just run the same command regardless of distro or DE (assuming you have the applications already installed)
SiEgE-F1@reddit
The problem is that Linux is still a lot about editing some /etc/environment to make your game functional, or /etc/default/grub/ to set something for your GPU driver.. I think few "tips and tricks" like:
"Here is how you can turn on HDR using KDE Plasma.. and this is how you do that with a one liner through the terminal".
Basically, you show people what they want to know, but also give them a glance of other options, like if they want things done fast, direct and proper - the Linux way. You're still giving them everything they want, but not forcing it down their throat as the only option, increasing their "terminal tolerance".
Emotional_Menu_6837@reddit
Exactly that, the genuine biggest hurdle there is is getting someone to try it the first time. Once you’ve broken that it’s quickly obvious it’s a more than adequate replacement for windows.
To break that hurdle you need to tear down the preconceptions that it’s difficult or ‘elite’ to use it and the best way to do that is to show it in action. E.g running a game is opening steam, clicking download and then clicking play, not a long list of terminal commands.
0riginal-Syn@reddit
It really is. I used the "scary terminals" as we always hear that from those that really don't even want to give Linux a chance.
FrozenPizza07@reddit
Fairly new to windows, started using back in XP days, W10 was “perfect” It had easy to find settings or it will send you to control center, which is what I still use on w11 (not to forget w11 settings page localisation is a JOKE). I use debian on my OLD laptop as it cant handle windows anymore. I still end up searching through “apps” for a gui, only to end up back in terminal.
I used mint for a short while, other than a new window for basically every setting it did feel like it wanted to be gui friendly.
No-Bison-5397@reddit
Things like “run as administrator”…
Microsoft aren’t perfect graphical shell (as they would say) designers. They aren’t perfect operating system designers. But what they have often got right is that you can do it all in the GUI. A much higher proportion of settings are exposed.
It might not be the most flexible way to design an interface but with the right tooling it’s easier than typing arcane commands into a terminal. Even with autocompletions etc most shells are not particularly good in terms of ergonomics.
RAMChYLD@reddit
The old generation maybe. More and more features are being removed from the new Windows that it's now a joke. Functionality like joystick calibration buried under an avalanche of menus, while pro features like MIDI mapping is gone from the OS completely.
razbainyks@reddit
Absolutely. Wtf are they thinking is beyond me, old XP/7 control panel is greatly reduced, I mean even in 10 you had to take extra hops to reach some settings and in 11 is much worse with some being omitted or I do not know easy way to reach it.
aphantombeing@reddit
It's hard to find wifi passwords through settings. Need to go through variou steps just to see it. there are similar pages in new settings app but many options are missing similar to it.
No-Bison-5397@reddit
Sure. I haven't used windows for more than a few hours in the last 5 years. But I think it still stands that you have to have the GUI to go beyond where Linux is now.
RAMChYLD@reddit
The GUI is also a joke. The settings menu is so stupid compared to Control Panel (which Microsoft is getting rid of because fuck the veterans I guess?). Looks like a 4 year old scribbling on white paper. Feels really devoid of any personality.
prueba_hola@reddit
not needed be similar as windows that can be bad for some users trying to use the os in the exactly same way
0riginal-Syn@reddit
I just think seeing what it can look like is important. You are right, it doesn't have to look like Windows, but some really are scared by change.
kansetsupanikku@reddit
What does this "freedom" mean to normal users?
GNU/Linux desktop brings quality. It also brings limitations to what vendors offer their software and devices support - but as long as your needs are covered, you are likely to get better experience with GNU/Linux. That's something that matters.
Unless you are a software developer or a lawyer, you won't notice the software licenses at all. And the fact of being "free as in beer", while important, is not something people would connect with quality. Neither is connecting it with deprecated hardware. While current users are perfectly aware that such systems get you environment that is fully-featured and polished, that is something that needs way more focus when presenting it to potential new users.
And "Windows 10 old, Windows 11 bad" is the worst possible motivation out there. GNU/Linux doesn't need Windows to justify its existence. It's worth installing because it's good, Windows can be safely forgotten.
snapphanen@reddit
What is GNU and why would you use it instead of Linux or Windows?
AffectionatePlate262@reddit
Windows users would likely confuse it with Gnutella
syklemil@reddit
You've stumbled into what is actually a really old debate / flamewar in the Linux community, between those who prefer calling the collection of operating systems just "Linux", and those who prefer calling it "GNU/Linux" or "GNU+Linux". Generally the latter have been in the minority, but more people might be sympathetic to it where Android is also running the Linux kernel, but it's not the usual kind of Linux OS (OK, actually maybe Android is the most common Linux OS, and us using the desktop Linux distros are the weirdos). Ultimately it seems most people are comfortable just calling the desktop/laptop OS family "Linux", and the mobile OS "Android".
GNU for the desktop user means some significant libraries (like glibc) and a whole bunch of command-line tools; the ones the thread above is suggesting be avoided in this push as they're apparently scaring the Windows users. The Windows users likely need something more like KDE/Linux if you want to stick to a single slash, or KDE/Wayland/Pipewire/Systemd/GNU/Linux if lots of stuff needs to be mentioned.
The GNU/Linux name stems from a time where the GNU tools were a lot more central to how you used the computer. At this point I think glibc/Linux might be more indicative of the GNU tooling non-power-users use frequently. Most of the GNU software is kind of obscure today, and I wouldn't imagine that e.g. the GNUstep window manager is all that popular. These days you're likely to use
curlrather thanwget, might be usingfishorzshinstead ofbashfor your daily driver shell, looking for stuff withrgrathergrep,tmuxrather thanscreen, stay the hell away fromautoconfif you can, etc.Sixcoup@reddit
What people usually call linux, is actually only one part of the operating system. To be more specific Linux is the kernel so the thing that handles the communication with the hardware. Every other part of the operating system is coming from GNU.
So the alternative to windows or macos is not called Linux. But Gnu/Linux it's the pair of the two. But for simplicity, people only say Linux.
Gnu in itself is not really anything, you never download Gnu for exemple. Gnu is a combination of a lot of different software which all combined create an operating system. We are talking about thousand of different piece, most of them being used for only one specific function. For exemple you have one to move a file, one to list files in a directory etc.
And that's the beauty of Linux (Or Gnu/Linux) it's not a monolithic block. You can swap everything and replace them with alternatives. For decades we used pulseaudio to handle sounds, but recently an alternative showed up called pipewire. So we replaced
jr735@reddit
I don't think u/kansetsupanikku suggested using GNU instead of Linux. The suggestion was for GNU/Linux, which is what most of us are using. To make it very, very simple think of Linux as the kernel and GNU as the tools you use, i.e. coreutils and all that.
muzaffarmhd@reddit
GNU's Not Unix, you should use it if you're a developer or if you care slightest about privacy, security, customizability and most importantly, ownership of your machine. Linux is a kernel, GNU/Linux is an operating system.
BinkReddit@reddit
I know this focuses on the switch from Windows 10, but you get the same amount of freedom switching from the abomination that is Windows 11 too!
N0Name117@reddit
There's nothing actually wrong with Windows 11.
diodesnstuff@reddit
Except for the 'recommendations', untested updates, push for online accounts, killing of working apps in favor of broken ones, and all the other fun things that corporate greed gets you.
N0Name117@reddit
This is all things that also existed in Windows 10 and many in versions before Windows 10. Also all things that are trivial to bypass or ignore for those that care. AKA, nothing but nitpicks that average users wouldn't likely notice or care about.
blebaford@reddit
but you said there was nothing wrong
N0Name117@reddit
In a response to the claim that it was an "abomination". Hyperbolic claims invite hyperbolic responses especially on this sub which seems to have almost a cultish attitude towards operating systems of all things.
blebaford@reddit
great so you're both wrong
N0Name117@reddit
There’s nothing to refute in a baseless claim.
blebaford@reddit
then what's the relevance of saying that windows 10 had the same bullshit or that most people can tolerate it.
N0Name117@reddit
Those nitpicks don’t make an operating system an “abomination”. No more so than complaints about the terminal or a lack of software makes Linux an abomination.
blebaford@reddit
but those linux issues are due to lack of resources, not a deliberate assault on users. that does make windows much more abominable.
N0Name117@reddit
Nothing listed above qualifies as a “deliberate assault on users”.
blebaford@reddit
they do:
N0Name117@reddit
No it doesn’t. Just because you personally disagree with a decision does not make it a “assault on users”.
blebaford@reddit
it does qualify as a deliberate assault on users, but not because I disagree with it.
cloggedsink941@reddit
I think all of those also exist in windows 10 to be fair.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
My new laptop came with win11. I was pleasantly surprised that it found and installed every driver it needed automatically. Thats a first for windows.
But then i saw all the bloatware, all the spyware and telemetry. Even using the debloat and antispy programs didnt help too much. And then it had an annoying feature where keys would repeat for no reason. Apparently its a common issue.
Immediately installed MX on a different partition and havent touched the windows one since.
N0Name117@reddit
The bloatware and spyware is honestly unchanged from windows 10. Might even be slightly less useless apps installed but whatever. I have no idea why this sub acts like it's something new. Of course the majority of bloatware and spyware I see is still inevitably manufacturer installed and not from M$.
Also in every single comment complaining about Win11, the person inevitably admits their lack of experience with regards to actually using it.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
Ive worked with literally every version of windows since it has existed. Hated win8 and liked 10 even less, thats when i switched to linux completely.
im not surprised with the amount of things they moved or removed. You shouldnt have to relearn everything when a new version drops. And considering its microsoft, I have absolutely no intention of doing so. Especially since hiding things behind options and menus is so prevalent on this version.
I also cant believe you're defending bloatware/spyware as if its in any way acceptable.
N0Name117@reddit
If you're having to "relearn everything" that honestly says more about you than it does Windows 11. The differences are so minor I'd have trouble actually listing most of them and it's entirely trivial to move the start menu back to the left or bring back the old right click menu. Anyone who installs linux should have the brains to do configure basic preferences in the settings menu so the only excuse for these sort of nitpick complaints is a religious like bias.
Bloatware and spyware is the inevitable reality of the modern world and chances are you're using a smartphone filled to the brim with more spyware than M$ could ever imagine. Double points if you're also using a free email or free cloud storage which also doubles as spyware. For all the complaints about spyware and telemetry, I've yet to see any evidence of exactly what the spyware does for M$. Best I can tell, it's fear mongering over fairly basic telemetry or people who don't know where to turn off personalized ads.
Now it would absolutely be better if we lived in a world where this wasn't the reality but we don't. Because I prefer reality, I see no reason to make my life harder than it has to be by exaggerating minor nitpicks about windows 11.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
Calm down Bill.
Its cool if you like backdoors and letting them know exactly what you do and what is on your pc. I dont. I also like the extra performance since its running only what I tell it to. Or to be able to actually customize it.
The amount of things I cant do on linux is way shorter than the list of things I dislike about MS, so its an easy choice for me. I just prefer not using the Fox news of operating systems.
N0Name117@reddit
Nice straw man but that’s what I expect on this site. But it does go back to my point. It’s fear mongering without proof. There’s no evidence M$ knows exactly what you do on your computer. There’s a lot of accusations but those have been getting thrown around for over a decade with no substantial proof.
I also have yet to tell anyone what OS to use. I don’t care. But you should be honest about the reality rather than buy into a cult. Windows 11 is an excellent OS and has a long list of features and programs that aren’t available on Linux. Anyone with any practicality isn’t making an OS their personality but rather uses whatever the best tool is for the job.
This doesn’t even make sense.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
Microsoft Recall:
"Search across time to find the content you need. Then, re-engage with it. With Recall, you have an explorable timeline of your PC’s past. Just describe how you remember it and Recall will retrieve the moment you saw it. Any photo, link, or message can be a fresh point to continue from. Snapshots of your screen will be saved only if you opt into the feature. If you opt in to the feature, then as you use your PC, a snapshot of your screen will be saved. Snapshots are taken periodically while content on the screen is different from the previous snapshot. Your snapshots are then locally stored and locally analyzed on your PC. Recall’s analysis allows you to search for content, including both images and text, using natural language. Trying to remember the name of the Korean restaurant your friend Alice mentioned? Just ask Recall and it retrieves both text and visual matches for your search, automatically sorted by how closely the results match your search. Recall can even take you back to the exact location of the item you saw."
N0Name117@reddit
You’re continuing to prove my point about the fear mongering. It literally says it’s both opt in and stored locally.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
"Trust me bro"
Heres the stuff you're looking for though. Remember the Snowden NSA leaks? Microsoft was involved.
Snowden on X: Microsoft officially confirms @NSAGov developed the flaw that brought down hospitals this weekend.
Outlook backdoor
And here is more on PRISM
Even more on PRISM
Microsoft accidentally leaked the golden keys for win10
"Edward Snowden publicly revealed the existence of PRISM through a series of classified documents leaked to journalists...The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program, including Microsoft in 2007, Yahoo! in 2008, Google in 2009, Facebook in 2009, Paltalk in 2009, YouTube in 2010, AOL in 2011, Skype in 2011 and Apple in 2012
And here is one last updated breakdown on PRISM
I could literally do this for hours. Snowden was the worst possible thing that could have happened to the NSA, and the US government lying.
Remember, before him, "The government is spying on us" was crazy talk. Turned out we didnt even know half of what was going on.
N0Name117@reddit
Idk why you bothered to type all of that like I wasn’t already aware of it. But you’re literally posting on Reddit. Chances are you have other social media accounts which are also being spied on. You’re probably using an email provided by free from Google or one of the other major providers that comply with government requests and are also datamined by the providers as well. Same is true for cloud storage options. And worst of all is the modern bugging device known as a smartphone which you probably carry on your personal with convenient microphones, camera, and location data at any given time.
The point is that if you think you’re honestly avoiding spyware especially at the government level by not using windows then you’re just fooling yourself. Unless you’re one of the few individuals who chooses to forgo the convenience of the modern world in favor of true privacy, you’re just being a hypocrite by bitching about windows and statistically, those individuals aren’t on Reddit.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
You werent the one trying to tell me the backdoors dont exist? The whole fear-mongering without proof? Or this line below.
Like I gave and you rapidly changed the subject again.
My point for this whole thing is why would i want that spyware built into my operating system(what you're advocating for)?
I actually do avoid it as much as possible. Different email addresses for my phone(which i rarely carry anyway), dont use onedrive or gdrive, no outlook/skype/etc. My browsers have adblockers, scriptblockers, etc and im careful about cookies.
I know they're still mining data anyway, but im not going to make it even easier for them.
N0Name117@reddit
I never once said back doors don't exist. I said the complaints on this sub about M$ spyware are fear mongering. And I stand by that. The blow up over M$ Recall, the constant bitching about telemetry with every Windows revision, etc. It's all fear mongering since there's no evidence that M$ is doing anything outside of what I'd consider to be industry standard practices. I don't like those practices personally but Windows itself is the least of my concerns when it comes to privacy. It's trivial compared to the potential info stored in an email or accessible through a smartphone.
And I didn't change the subject either. That's just another strawman. I'm also not advocating for spyware (another strawman), I'm just being realistic about it's inevitable existence in the modern world and that the discussion around Windows 11 on this sub is foolish. Avoiding windows is not actually stopping the government or almost any company from spying and data mining.
Good for you. But you're also aware of the fact that the overwhelming majority of people wont even go that far and selling them linux as a method to have a private life is dishonest. Like tossing a pebble in a river to stop the flow of information. If you actually cared about privacy then Windows 11 would be at the very bottom of the list of issues and you'd be starting by telling others how to get rid of their online lives first.
People on this sub use Windows 11 as a boogyman for a much larger issue to pretend they care about privacy. It's lip service to give themselves something to feel morally superior about while also being a hypocrite with their online lives and smartphones.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
How is it fearmongering to point out what they're actively doing? And have been doing for almost 2 decades at this point. Your deflections do more damage than good since you're the one spreading misinformation.
"Show me proof"
Shows it
"Well Akshually...."
And using it gives them access easily. Not a hard concept. Limiting what they can do is the most we can do these days.
its not about that, its about the fact there is zero privacy with MS. For someone that complains about strawmans so much, you sure are fond of them.
N0Name117@reddit
To this point I’ve been trying to have a good faith discussion but I’m not sure you’re actually interested in such a thing. But we will give it one more shot so let’s backtrack a little bit and lay out some key points that might have gotten missed.
For starters, the discussion on privacy is simply NOT a one size fits all discussion. Discussion the concept of privacy at the level of corporate espionage is a vastly different discussion than what privacy means when dealing with government overreach. And all of that is a vastly different discussion than what privacy means to the average tech illiterate computer user. Can we perhaps accept that as a starting point? Maybe I should have been more clear in making sure we were on the same page here but I digress. At any rate most discussions on this forum happen in the context of the final group of people.
So with that in mind in what context is privacy being discussed here? Because we will probably agree more than we disagree. However you’re only enforcing my point about fear mongering by saying there is “no privacy with MS”. That’s simply not true.
Informal_Bunch_2737@reddit
None. We're discussing Microsoft and the lack of privacy in the newer OS's compared to Linux and its complete control. I'd mostly understand your attitude if this was in any subreddit except this one.
PRISM literally disagrees with you. I even gave you links showing how microsoft leaked golden keys to win10, or how they built in backdoors for the NSA in outlook, and how they've been actively working with the NSA for almost 20 years. This is conspiracy-fact since Snowden.
So no. I dont intend to discuss it further.
N0Name117@reddit
This subreddit is the exact place this discussion needs to happen. Unless you honestly want this to just be a massive circlejerk of fools sniffing each others farts. Granted it already kinda is but recent events show that’s it’s probably not the best idea to ignore and ostracize any contrary opinion.
Prison does not prove that there is no privacy on windows. Again we go back to what level the discussion needs to happen at. For the average person, PRISIM means nothing. For the corporations, PRISIM means nothing, for those concerned about government overreach, PRISIM is a major issue. It’s an example of my earlier point about dishonest fear mongering.
gatornatortater@reddit
You're sitting smack dab in the middle of one of the most obvious examples of the opposite yet you made this asinine claim. And your choice to use other "services" that do the same thing and claim that makes it all ok is even more bonkers.
N0Name117@reddit
Yes and I stand by that claim. Especially with anyone on a site like Reddit. If you’re on any sort of social media or one of the vast majority of people that use the plethora of Google services you’re literally participating in the spyware regardless of what OS you have on the hardware. all this is stuff that you should probably be worrying about long before any theoretic windows spyware. That’s the reality of the modern world and unless you’re one of the few who do go the extra mile to avoid tracking, complaining about windows makes you look like a hypocrite.
Sloppy-Gumjobs@reddit
8, 10, and 11 are all equally abominable
godsey786@reddit
OpenSUSE is significantly less user-friendly than Windows. If system is incompatible with Windows 11, Linux Mint is a more suitable alternative and ease to use and a smooth out-of-the-box experience, Linux Mint is a better fit. or Fedora.
ubuntu going downhill with snap and pro shenanigans
Yondercypres@reddit
Tell people to switch to LMDE! Preach it!
ParticularSuitable32@reddit
Hmm , but neither primevideo nor netflix have 1080p working in Linux . That's a spoiler for normal folks
morganmoller@reddit
Why is this?
Yondercypres@reddit
They like bending their users over.
jr735@reddit
This is why these businesses do so well. They know their customers or potential customers will bend over backwards to use their products. I am not changing an operating system so I can subscribe to a service, much less one that doesn't let me own the content.
creamcolouredDog@reddit
An openSUSE news blog post that doesn't use AI-generated illustration??