Maple Avenue property owners oppose Dallas’ ‘road diet’
Posted by pakurilecz@reddit | Dallas | View on Reddit | 54 comments
Posted by pakurilecz@reddit | Dallas | View on Reddit | 54 comments
AbueloOdin@reddit
Maple at Inwood sees 10k cars a day. Two lanes plus a turning lane is capable of 16k and would also see less traffic collisions (the second leading cause of traffic congestion).
Further, recommendations from other DOTs recommend that streets with less than 25k cars a day be reviewed for road diets, with maximums for eligibility being between 15k-25k.
Any concern about capacity or car traffic is overblown.
GravitationalEddie@reddit
Doesn't cars/hr during peak account for anything?
AbueloOdin@reddit
I don't have that data. Do you? Some roads are fairly consistent load. Some have sudden peaks. Do you know how variable the road's load is?
The complaint was about congestion at all times, not just during rush hour.
alydm@reddit
No data, but I drive there daily. It has more congestion at rush hour. Large exodus of UTSW employees among others
AbueloOdin@reddit
Some congestion during peak hours is to be expected on every road. Otherwise, you're spending too much money overbuilding your roads.
Now massive congestion, in general, is an issue. The fact that we're talking about this probably means we aren't seeing massive congestion on the road. Only a typical amount. And my guess (based on most accidents being rear-ending and side swiping) is most congestion is due to bottlenecks due to cars stopping to turn, effectively turning certain sections into essentially a 2+turn road during peak times.
el-dongler@reddit
Curious if your profession is adjacent to traffic?
jesuisunvampir@reddit
not to be Captain Obvious but there is more congestion during rush hour.. absolutely everywhere
alydm@reddit
Idk. Maybe it’s not so obvious. Nearby, Forest park and bomar doesn’t have congestion even during rush hour. But thank you nevertheless, Captain
Complex_Win_5408@reddit
Nonanswer much?
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
Don’t make me tap the username.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
Yep, and this area has the 001 bus, which has good frequency.
SLY0001@reddit
road diet would mean less gps and cars would take that route to places. ROAD DIET NOW!
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
so then that traffic would be moved over to other streets that weren't designed for the increase in traffic
in this case the traffic would be shifted over to Fairmount street or Harry Hines
https://maps.app.goo.gl/8tdFs1DAgyBFG7Zt9
SLY0001@reddit
Then do it again and again. City and neighborhood streets shouldn't be designed like freeways that causes too many crashes and pedestrians death due to vehicles having room to speed and do dangerous menouvers. Max should be 2 lanes on each street and one lane on residential street (one way to keep unwanted traffic out).
Want more car traffic? Move to the side of the freeways.
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
let me guess you dont drive
SLY0001@reddit
Let me guess, you truly believe that every inch of every city has to be exclusively for cars only? What a shit quality of life. If you love driving so much, live by a freeway and see how much you live breathing and hearing the constant noise.
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
no I dont believe the every inch of city should be exclusively for cars only. I actually live on a 6 lane street which is much like a race way sometiimes
Let me guess you believe that you can get everyone to give up their car/truck/whatever vehicle and take up cycling and public transit. The automobile has given people the independence that they want to be able to go where they want when they want.
you shouldnt force people to use inconvenient public transit or to use bicycles.
Now I have lived in and worked in several different cities. Whenever possible I would use public transit to get to and from work, but on the weekends or days off I used my car. If I had an appointment during the week I would use my car. If on a business trip I would whenever possible take advantage of public transit. I've riddent the rails in San Fran, Chicago, London, Berlin, DC and NYC just to name a few cities.
do I love driving? sure when i'm in my roadster with the top down cruising on back country roads. I love my truck when I have to haul rocks, wood or whatever
back in the 70s I would ride all over Dallas on my bicycle. Always avoided the major roads taking side streets to avoid traffic.
how do you get around town?
SLY0001@reddit
I drive, and I hate it. Majority hate it. People just fear change. Almost every modern business and service today is built around convenience so that people don’t have to drive—Uber, Lyft, DoorDash, Amazon, etc. If people truly loved driving, none of these companies would exist. The "independence" you think automobiles have given people is entirely manufactured by corrupt politicians and the automobile, oil, and tire industries.
Communities designed today aren’t like those built traditionally in the past. They were bulldozed to make people dependent on cars and create a false sense of "independence." Historically, communities were built on a human scale by the people who lived in them.
No, I don’t want to force anyone to give up their cars. What I want is to eliminate government overreach that has plagued our neighborhoods and communities for decades.
Eliminate restrictive zoning, minimum parking requirements, setbacks, height restrictions, and similar regulations.
These government regulations have prevented communities from being walkable, supporting thriving small businesses, and meeting housing demand. That’s why rent and housing prices have skyrocketed across America.
What I want is to remove these regulations so that communities can establish their own small businesses and build their own housing. Allow corner stores, barbershops, banks, bakeries, schools, daycares, and more to exist near residential areas without excessive restrictions.
Over time, people will naturally prefer to eat, shop, get a haircut, and conduct their business within their own neighborhoods—ultimately abandoning the automobile for what truly represents independence: walking and biking.
AbueloOdin@reddit
Harry Hines sees 26k per day. It has six lanes w/turning lanes capable of 55k per day. It can take it.
Mnudge@reddit
I have a hard time buying any arguments about infrastructure and housing because all sides have a huge agenda that doesn’t care about what’s really happening but only about some broader societal agenda.
Pro-Car
Anti-Car
YIMBY
NIMBY
All sides are pretty disengenuous and proffer paid for studies and stats.
Both sides believe the other are the society antichrist
Find whatever side appeals to your emotion and go for it.
SLY0001@reddit
Pro-cae and Nimbys are usually always racist and classist people.
Mnudge@reddit
Kyle!
Mnudge@reddit
That’s some bullshit.
Tell me you’re 24 with what you consider a good income because you got lucky and landed a nice job, despite 80% of your peers flailing, and you thinking it will all work out, because of course it will, without telling me you just tune in to the echo chamber where you are buying $12 dollar cocktails in uptown.
Massive property developers love you even less than the MAGA rich love you.
Sorry to crack the reality
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
based upon what?
azwethinkweizm@reddit
Property owners threw a fit when lower greenville went from 5 to 2 lanes. It's a good thing we didn't listen to them!
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
I avoid LG due to the restricted 2 lanes
azwethinkweizm@reddit
Cool! It's packed every weekend.
Icecoldruski@reddit
Yeahhhh, if there are pedestrian accidents on Maple its likely a good portion are all those idiot homeless people crossing the street at the most leisurely walking pace you've ever seen essentially hoping to get hit. It is absurd how congested Maple gets when there is a rush, and even more absurd how ghetto the street can seem in general with nobody giving a damn about their own lives as they jaywalk without a care in the world. If you want to lower the number of lanes, gentrify the place some more first and make it nicer to visit, because for now, you need all the lanes you can get to gtfo out of there faster.
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
"As the manager of 40 properties fronting Maple Avenue and its immediate side streets, I do everything possible to protect my properties and tenants. Imagine my shock just a few weeks ago when one of our neighbors dropped a bomb about the city’s plan for a “road diet.”
Over the past two years, the city of Dallas has been quietly drafting a plan to cut the Maple Avenue traffic flow, and likely our retail business, in half. That’s two lanes down to just one in either direction. The plan is part of a city initiative called Vision Zero. Ironic, since virtually every property and business owner along Maple Avenue — more than 160 of us from Oak Lawn to Mockingbird — had zero knowledge of the plan, despite the city holding two poorly publicized town hall meetings."
https://archive.ph/M2lXf
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
Man, people are really shooting the messenger here. Sorry, OP.
Slinkeh_Inkeh@reddit
> Edit: Oh.
what am i missing here
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
OP is a pro-car dependency activist and is posting grifty blog posts from very reputable and legitimate publications like “Anti-planner,” and I think people are seeing through that.
I still upvoted the article because it’s a good discussion and is a legitimate news story, and honestly even this comment shouldn’t be downvoted, but… yeah.
dchirs@reddit
I'm surprised that this article is written by the president of a real estate company that owns a lot of buildings on Maple.
Maple doesn't exactly feel "nice" right now, and this renovation seems very likely to increase property values significantly.
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
he is a major property owner and the change will impact his properties. doubt that DCAD takes into account traffic flow when they set appraisals
dchirs@reddit
I certainly understand why he is writing about the subject.
I just think the development is probably in his financial interest.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
So the city definitely could have handled the public engagement process better, but I want to make sure everyone understands the context of why the city is doing this.
In Dallas, speed is far and away the primary factor in traffic crashes. The most effective way to make our roads safer is to reduce speeds by narrowing roads and other traffic calming measures. A 2023 study by John Hopkins University found that “narrowing travel lanes is associated with significantly lower numbers of non-intersection traffic crashes and could actually contribute to improvement in safety.”.
And because our roads are designed for unnecessarily high speeds, we have some of the most dangerous roads in America. As of 2023, we had the highest traffic fatality rate in the past five years of any major city in America, with a rate 27% higher than the that in Houston, 22% higher than in Fort Worth, and 51% higher than Los Angeles..
OK, but what about more traffic enforcement? It’s basically that the Dallas Police have been told to prioritize violent crime over traffic enforcement, and they don’t have the resources to do both. The good news is that enforcement becomes less necessary when the streets aren’t designed like race tracks.
The City of Dallas needs to slow traffic by changing street design— narrowing lanes and instituting other traffic calming measures.
Unfortunately, the City of Dallas’ Department of Transportation and Public Works has really dropped the ball on improving traffic safety, despite committing to do so. In 2019, our city signed on to Vision Zero, committing to eliminate traffic fatalities and reduce serious injuries from traffic crashes by 2030. Then they did literally nothing for years, only funding it in 2022. We are still not listed as a Vision Zero city, while every other big city in Texas is. When the City of Dallas passed its bond package earlier this year, only about 2% of bond money for transportation was devoted to Vision Zero— less than $9 million dollars of $500 million..
Could the city have engaged Maple Avenue stakeholders better? Totally. But this road is a real problem and something has to change.
Here’s what you can do to help the city fix its dangerous roads: + Contact your Dallas city council member and ask them to make Vision Zero and traffic safety a priority. Tell them that you want complete streets and slower speeds. See these instructions for contacting your council member. Tell them that you support more road diets. + Report road safety issues to Dallas 311. Specifically, you can request traffic slowing on streets. + Join an advocacy organization who is working to make streets safer like Dallas Bicycle Coalition (follow them Instagram), or one that is focused on supporting public transit in our region like Dallas Area Transit Alliance (follow them on Instagram). Fewer trips by car means fewer opportunities for traffic crashes. + Take a train or bus, for fuck’s sake! I’ve written some tips for those new to riding DART.
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
"make Vision Zero and traffic safety a priority"
and yet there is nothing in Vision Zero for any sort of public relations campaign (in English and Spanish) about pedestrian safety etc.
"Take a train or bus, for fuck’s sake!" the whole effort is anti-vehicle in an effort to force people to use public transit and bikes
"Vision Zero is a strategy to eliminate all traffic fatalities and severe injuries" sadly you will never be able to eliminate all traffic fatalities and severe injuries. achieving 100% is not possible. its like saying we are going to eliminate alcohol 100% not going to happen (see Prohibition)
noncongruent@reddit
Most traffic pedestrian fatalities are the result of pedestrians being in the roadway and getting struck by a car. Almost never is a pedestrian struck while being on a sidewalk or otherwise not in a roadway. This is based on the few news reports I can find about these fatalities. There are three broad approaches to preventing these kinds of pedestrian/vehicle interactions, either keep people and traffic separate, eliminate pedestrians, or eliminate vehicles. This approach is the latter, and does nothing about pedestrians entering the roadway.
Unfortunately all pedestrian deaths are lumped into a single category, that of the car/driver being at fault, including pedestrian deaths caused by people running out into freeway traffic, crossing in the middle of the block instead of at a signalized crosswalk, and pedestrians who cross in a crosswalk against a DO NOT WALK signal while traffic has a green signal. I tried to find out what percentage of pedestrian deaths fall into these categories vs what pedestrian deaths are caused by cars running red lights and striking pedestrians in a crosswalk or by cars hitting pedestrians on sidewalks but couldn't find detailed fatality reports that weren't behind a massive paywall. I'm just not able to spend many thousands of dollars to purchase the reports that would have that detailed information.
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
I regularly see people jaywalking in the OC, and if at night you can barely see them
"According to a report issued last week by the Portland Bureau of Transportation, 70 percent of pedestrian fatalities in 2021 were homeless people. San Jose also reports that 20 percent of all 2021 traffic fatalities (which probably means over half of pedestrian fatalities) were homeless."
https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=19728
danzigmotherfkr@reddit
I regularly cross the road at a particular crosswalk with the walk sign lit and have lost count the number of times some douchebag almost hit me because they're speeding and not paying attention. The only reason I'm typing this now is because I keep an eye out for them
GulfCoastPunk@reddit
Trying to cross Oak Lawn between the Starbucks and Total Wine?
You need to have your head on swivel here!
noncongruent@reddit
I appreciate your anecdote, but I really would like to see real data, which for some reason is never made available in these discussions.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
Our roads being death traps are forcing people to drive. Equating making the road two traffic lanes each way as anti-vehicle is comically over dramatic.
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
"the Portland City Auditor has released a report effectively blaming Vision Zero for the increase in fatalities. Aside from not doing everything the city promised to do in its Vision Zero plan, the report says that the basic problem is that city officials made no effort to find out if the actions it did take were working. "
https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=22483
we (City of Dallas) has been constructing restricted bike lanes (Abrams and Fort Worth Ave) as well as unrestricted bike lanes yet we have no data showing that people regularly use them. same goes with the bike lane on the Jefferson St bridge.
Sylvan St used to have annoying rumble strips set down, but they have been removed I assume because the residents in the area hated the noise.
as mentioned earlier I've yet to see any sort of PR campaign to address pedestrian problems. TxDoT decades ago created their Dont Mess with Texas anti-littering campaign.
"The campaign is credited with reducing litter by 72% between 1987 and 1990. Other data shows that litter has continued to decline, with a 17% reduction in visible litter from 2013 to 2019"
"Measurable Goals
It all started with a problem that required setting ambitious but achievable goals that can be measured to track progress. After decades of collecting litter from state highways, the Texas Department of Transportation decided to take a fresh approach. In 1985, they challenged GSD&M, a local Austin advertising agency, to help them create a campaign that would reduce litter by a minimum of 5 percent in the first year. Just one year after the launch of the Stevie Ray Vaughan commercial, litter had decreased by almost 30 percent statewide."
https://socialimpactarchitects.com/social-marketing
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
"Contact your Dallas city council member and ask them to make Vision Zero and traffic safety a priority."
I agree with making traffic safety a priority , but here are some articles that point out that VZ is not the solution people make it to be
"the Portland City Auditor has released a report effectively blaming Vision Zero for the increase in fatalities. Aside from not doing everything the city promised to do in its Vision Zero plan, the report says that the basic problem is that city officials made no effort to find out if the actions it did take were working."
https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=22483
"According to a report issued last week by the Portland Bureau of Transportation, 70 percent of pedestrian fatalities in 2021 were homeless people. San Jose also reports that 20 percent of all 2021 traffic fatalities (which probably means over half of pedestrian fatalities) were homeless."
https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=19728
" more than 1,500 American jurisdictions, ranging from New York and Los Angeles to small towns like Waverly, Iowa, are using road diets and similar measures that reduce the capacity of streets to move traffic. It’s all in the name of “vision zero,” a planning fad that claims slowing traffic will reduce fatalities. In fact, it is increasing them."
https://ti.org/antiplanner/?p=16539
GregJonesThe3rd@reddit
Seems like the city regularly fails during the public engagement. In my experience they have failed to actually present the good parts about the stuff they’re doing and don’t present the research on it, which just leaves angry residents and business owners that think there is only negative effects.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
And we need to hold the city accountable for that in addition to getting the policies right.
CommanderSquirt@reddit
We need to sue! /s
BlazinAzn38@reddit
In the UK driving around they had these little bump outs every so often for traffic calming and it was awesome.
noncongruent@reddit
This is the fourth story on this topic in the last 30 days:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comments/1gv2zzr/traffic_plans_for_driving_maple_avenue_near_the/
https://old.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comments/1gdgxrc/the_city_of_dallas_wants_to_make_maple_avenue/
https://old.reddit.com/r/Dallas/comments/1fobjsy/maple_avenue_dallas_most_dangerous_street/
pakurilecz@reddit (OP)
thank you for providing the links
Josher747@reddit
As someone who lives in this neighborhood, I already have to actively avoid this stretch of maple/cedar springs/lemmon during large parts of the day due to congestion. I can’t imagine what it’s going to be like now that both Maple and Harry Hines are having lanes removed.
danzigmotherfkr@reddit
I oppose the countless hoards of people I regularly witness speeding, driving like assholes, running red lights, trying to beat red lights, almost hitting pedestrians, and all the other bullshit that happens on the roads here. This should be done all over dfw
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