Why I want a GNU/Linux phone
Posted by Gugalcrom123@reddit | linux | View on Reddit | 121 comments
It's more than privacy.
I want a GNU/Linux phone because iOS and Android are both very bad OSes. I have Android, because it's a little better, but I don't enjoy having Android. How can any OS not allow you to specify the file path to a photo in 2024?
I don't want a "minimalist" phone. I want more, not less. I want to run desktop browsers, program and make presentations on my phone which is already capable of it, but it's got inadequate software.
I also want more privacy, but this is secondary. And no fake privacy (we're crippling apps so no one can spy but us).
I want to be able to use the hardware to its full potential, and to make sure I can control it as much as possible. How can Samsung or Apple convince me to buy an €2000 phone, if it barely does anything better than the €360 model? Does it run Instagram more smoothly and has an AI that fakes pictures? I don't need that.
Android isn't a smart phone. It's a java phone, but it's the best we have. Of course, since everyone nowadays needs Uber, Revolut, TikTok and Lidl Plus, the manufacturers won't bother making a better phone.
My ideal phone would be a modern Nokia N900. It had OK power for its time, it was supported and from a normal manufacturer (no, I'm not ordering a developer's device), and also had the keyboard. It was designed to be as useful as possible, unlike all modern phones which are optimised for AI "photos" and stupid social media. If an N900 with a slightly better CPU, more RAM and a capacitive touchscreen, at a reasonable price appeared, I would instantly buy it.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
Agreed, so…
… then buy one (or here in the EU when they get a restock).
I daily-drive the PinePhone, exactly because I am not willing to put up with arbitrary restrictions such as this one:
Another fun one I have found out recently is that Android does not let you select the audio input device (builtin microphone, hardware jack if present, Bluetooth, USB audio). The device will just pick what it thinks is best for you, and if you want anything else, you are out of luck. (E.g., some devices will not let you record audio from Bluetooth.)
There was a proprietary third-party app that would let you select the audio input (Lesser AudioSwitch), but it stopped working with Android 11 because Google changed something that made it no longer work. And Android also does not allow downgrades. So now the app can only be made to work on rooted devices with a Magisk module.
And now, it appears that preview releases of Android 16 finally have audio input selection support… except it did not work for the reviewer! So it is not even sure that it will end up (and actually work) in the final shipped Android 16 next year. But even if it does, it means that they shipped 5 releases of Android with no way to select the audio input device.
The problem with running desktop software is that, while the PinePhone can theoretically do that, a lot of software turns out to be mostly or entirely unusable on small displays with touch input. Basically, if you zoom the app so tiny that it fits on the screen, good luck hitting the correct target with your fingers (even if you use the smaller ones instead of the thumb), if you zoom the app large enough for touch input, everything is truncated and unusable. A desktop browser (Firefox) was made usable with tweaks (though there are also decent mobile-optimized or convergent browsers such as Angelfish (based on QtWebEngine) and GNOME Web (Epiphany, based on WebKitGTK)), but, e.g., LibreOffice is not usable at all.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
I mean that people "need" fancy conveniences instead of a more useful device.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
Well, yes, that is the problem. More and more stuff in this world is getting "appified". Physical counters, vending machines, rebate stickers, cash money, communication services, etc. are all getting replaced with proprietary smartphone apps that lock their users into the duopoly. Both the public (government agencies) and private (companies) sector are moving that way. Most of those apps are not, strictly speaking, mandatory, but people still have come to expect the convenience they offer. It is getting more and more of a pain to not use an Android or iOS smartphone.
That said, you claim that you are not one of those people, so what is preventing you from switching to a PinePhone now?
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
It's overpriced. I can't pay 400 euro for 100 euro hardware.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
You'd rather pay 1000€ for a phone that you do not really own because only some company has root access to it and that will be obsolete in at most 3 years because update support will end? Expecting niche hardware such as GNU/Linux phones to be competitive with the dumping prices of mainstream Android phones is just not realistic. The PinePhone is already a lot cheaper than everything comparable out there (the Librem 5 now, but also the OpenMoko devices back in the day).
N0NB@reddit
The biggest impediment isn't really Google or Apple but the carriers. While I'd like a phone running Debian with GNOME mobile/touch, it isn't going to happen.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
In Europe unlocked phones are normal.
N0NB@reddit
Not here in the US--"no user servicable parts inside" and that includes software. The usual excuse is online banking and as I understand it, even unlocking the boot loader disables a lot of the device's capability.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
Do not buy your phone from the carrier, get a SIM-only contract (prepaid SIM or standard contract does not matter, as long as you get a physical SIM card, not an eSIM). In the USA, MVNOs on the T-Mobile network (or T-Mobile itself if you like paying more) are reported to accept the PinePhone. Be warned that there are several complaints about Verizon and sometimes AT&T blocking the PinePhone, only T-Mobile is reported to always accept it in the USA.
N0NB@reddit
I'm not sure if T-Mobile is around here. It's mostly Verizon or US Cellular. AT&T is around but I'd never send them one red cent ever again if I can help it!
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
Check for yourself: https://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/coverage-map?INTNAV=tNav%3ACoverage%3A5G4GCoverageMap
I cannot find out whether US Cellular works with the PinePhone, but it is a dead end anyway: according to Wikipedia, they are about to sell their customer business along with part of their infrastructure to T-Mobile.
What is (almost) sure is that Verizon will not work.
Not much more I can tell you from the other side of the Atlantic.
N0NB@reddit
They show coverage which is probably piggybacked onto Verizon. But, it's kind of hard to give up my current pay by the month plan of unlimited voice, text, data, and hotspot for $25/month through Visible (low price subsidiary of Verizon). I do need to run a couple of banking apps on Android so I can't really give that up.
As far as my phone is concerned, I'm in the land of vendor lock-in, but it's cheap abd it's just an appliance to me.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
plenty of options but most use postmarket os based on alpine so I guess no GNU for you.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
I think only 2 phones suppport calls on postmarketOS.
Kevin_Kofler@reddit
Not true anymore. Even the obvious ones (PinePhone, PinePhone Pro, Librem 5) are already 3 different phones. But even excluding those, https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices lists 16 modern smartphones with full support for calls and 7 with partial support.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
Personally i think you have unreasonable expectations since you want a mainstream device without any aspects of what makes a mainstream device successful in the mainstream market.
I use a pinephone and have since they shut off 3g flipphones in my area in early 2022.
IMHO:
I am tired of seeing these rants from people. The issue I have is not that many of the points arent valid but that there are numerous solutions that are making progress every single week. Yet somehow people ignore all of these options and choose to complain instead of actually supporting actual progress!
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Give an example of one that isn't overpriced.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
The cosmo comunicator costs less now than the N900 did new and at this point planet computers has been around for 7ish+ years so you can rest assured you will actually get your device.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
I've heard that the Astro isn't shipping.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
the astro slide is on backorder the cosmo is in stock
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
First give a price range you think is good.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
1000 euro, but I do want a value similar to Androids unlike the Librems.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
The astro slide 5g is when adjusted for inflation VERY close in price to the N900.
UnknownLoser123@reddit
I think there needs to be a corporate sponsor for this. There is no funding nor the developers in this space. What would be great is we have both. Being able to use Android Apps in a container, while still being able to run Linux terminal commands and regular web browsers. We are 75% there, we have waydroid, micro g, aurora store, mobile gnu/linux DE, we just need the glue to connect them together. Until someone like Valve does it, we will go no where.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Exactly. Nokia did the N900 in 2009 which is what I want.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
why not use an n900 with postmarket OS?
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Because it's old. 512M RAM is too little.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
Well, there are options but they are pretty much all dev devices or from small companies...
MAYBE MAYBE!!! some of the below could work for you with either UBports or postmarket OS.
Pinephone Pinephone pro Librem (or its derivatives) FLX1 (less of a dev device but still small company) Fairphone pixel-3/3a oneplus 6/6t planet computers (some of their devices) jolla phone (maybe) volla phone (maybe) small GPD handheld with m.2 modem (I suggest an EG-25G) F(x)tec Pro1 X N900 with postmarketOS
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Both pinephones: too weak Librem: overpeiced FLX1: might try Fairphone: not that good support Pixel 3a: old OnePlus 6: older Planet: exactly what I want, but company is shady Jolla: nonfree Volla: might try GPD: expensive and bulky Pro1x: same as Planet N900: old
But thank you.
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
PSA: Uber can be run as a web app on any pretty much any device
diegoasecas@reddit
that's a cool business idea, you should go find some investors for it
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Is this sarcasm?
Adventurous-Test-246@reddit
yes and no, Yes cause sadly few people would invest No cause it would be really nice if you pulled it off.
diegoasecas@reddit
it is and it is not simultaneously
cnnrduncan@reddit
Damn bro it's a real shame that there aren't about a dozen different Linux phones on the market, guess I'm going to have to throw out my phone (xperia running SailfishOS) seeing as it apparently doesn't exist yet. Bloody shame, the nonexistent GNU/Linux distro it runs is nice as, would definitely be better than Android and iOS if it existed!
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
I know there are some phones, but they're very outdated.
cnnrduncan@reddit
Ae? The 10 V was released last year and the community phone was released this year. They don't have $2000 flagship specs but they're definitely not "outdated"
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
What's the community phone?
At least now I know my next phone will be a Linux phone.
cnnrduncan@reddit
It's the limited-edition phone that Jolla released as a collaboration with a Turkish manufacturer earlier this year.
xte2@reddit
Well, I feel your pain but phones are done to consume contents, so a phone you can own would still be a consumption device anyway, to produce we need text, and text need keyboards, we need precise input sometimes (image/video editing) and that's demand large screen and so on.
Long story short better fix themselves to a desktop setup, desktop, not laptop even if docked, with a proper desk, chair in a proper room to have a "conference bottle" properly working without demanding anything strapped to our bodies etc. The rest MUST be marginal.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Nokia N900 had a keyboard. It would have been useful to work when I don't have a computer.
xte2@reddit
How many WPM you are able to type on such keyboard, how much text you see on the screen and how much you born your eyes looking at something so little?
Yes, formally you are right, but it's an essentially emergency-only ugly usage.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
It could work, especially with the phablets we have now.
xte2@reddit
Yes, it could even on a G1 for emergency usage, not for normal work.
OEMs always push for stuff you through up quickly and cheap for them, expensive for their customer, try seeing the trend toward little keyboards for instance with even many that proudly state how quick can they use this little hyper-expensive thingy. People who work stationary but keep using small craptops, not docked, those who dream the "second display" on the mobile etc.
Do not dream that. A real desktop, ATX tower, 30"-alike screen, a full keyboard, a good trackball are the way to work and they last 10+ years so in term of TCO and natural resources they cost much less than small thingy used for 2-3 years maximum. Of course OEMs do dislike them: you do not drop the often, you do not trash a computer of a keyboard key not working anymore, you could assemble them to last (like much more ram less big CPUs respect of common OEMs choices) but that's is, good for us and for nature, less waist more power and comfort, less interest toward "the cloud" because anything can fully run locally.
I dream MANDATORY FLOSS and Open Hardware for nth reasons, but there is not need for GNU/Linux FLOSS phones today because we should use such device as less as we can.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Except I can't use a desktop anywhere. I would.
xte2@reddit
And in those situations how productive you can be?
I means a plumber ordering parts quick a quick photo sent to hes/shes supplier is a non-desktop suited scenario perfectly fit for mobile devices, but essentially all other activities? I fail to see any use case where you can be productive on a GNU/Linux|FLOSS tablet.
I feel the issue anyway, sometimes I do not have my Emacs so my notes etc on the go, but the point is that I have not much reasons to have it on the go actually, what I feel missing is actually a wrong idea.
It's the same for WFH vs digital nomads. Yes, you could work from remote as a digital nomad on a laptop, but that's not a good way to work in essentially all cases, so again you should not feel a missing laptop because you should not work that way in the first place.
PotentialSimple4702@reddit
You can specify file paths in android, your home folder is partly exposed to /storage/emulated/0
You don't even need to use proprietary software, I'm pretty sure there are already a couple of FOSS alternatives for presentations. Such as: OnlyOffice, Collabora Office, Eric Meyer's S5 Tool etc.
You can run most GNU/Linux cli apps without special effort, just install an android terminal emulator and enjoy. I don't think you'll find desktop gui apps useful though, apart from a handful of Gnome apps aside, they're not made nor optimized for small screens.
Same can be said for any expensive tech. Let's assume you're Dee. You don't play games at your computer, just surfing, and a pentium cpu is just enough for you. Why pay for i7 if it will barely do anything better? Dee thinks it's nuts.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Except with phones there's nothing to use the power. With a real PC a more powerful CPU is good for multitasking, gaming, programming, virtual machines, AI...
PotentialSimple4702@reddit
To be fair they're not designed to be as powerful as desktop grade systems neither, I suppose changing their system with GNU/Linux won't automatically make it desktop grade(See pi devices).
Even if you're not buying a flagship phone for gaming, you're paying premium prices for better case materials, better cameras, better screens, better game performance, longer software support and for status. For instance, Galaxy Flip is expensive but it looks cool. Which is fine if you still find it stupid.
fanfarius@reddit
What 🤔
Successful-Funny2620@reddit
Yeah not sure what that means but yeah, java phone is accurate.
towo@reddit
Well, Kotlin phone.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Kotlin is also a JVM language.
fanfarius@reddit
That doesn't make it Java. It compiles to native, or JavaScript..
Successful-Funny2620@reddit
It compiles to Java or Java byte code, same difference. They all run on a JVM on Android.
manobataibuvodu@reddit
Android apps do not run on JVM
fanfarius@reddit
How is that supposed to be "accurate"? Do you know what accurate means?
Successful-Funny2620@reddit
I mean to interact with most (if not all) of the features on a smart phone that's not an Apple product you need to use Java, so calling it a Java phone is accurate. You seldom interact with the Linux kernel when using a smart phone.
fanfarius@reddit
An Apple product??
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
to interact with the hardware features from an app
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
iPhones are Swift phones.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
You can only run Android Java apps. You can't take advantage of the kernel.
Tableuraz@reddit
Isn't this a security feature ? 🤔
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
It may be, but I would like to have the choice to run real Linux apps on it.
blackcain@reddit
they mean it is caffienated.
ciauii@reddit
Have you considered Mobian?
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Yes, but I can't pay €400 for a phone from 5 years ago from a shady manufacturer.
ciauii@reddit
I daily drive one. My experience is that you get used to it.
cnnrduncan@reddit
Damn bro it's a real shame that there aren't about a dozen different Linux phones on the market, guess I'm going to have to throw out my phone (xperia running SailfishOS) seeing as it apparently doesn't exist yet. Bloody shame, the nonexistent GNU/Linux distro it runs is nice as, would definitely be better than Android and iOS if it existed!
MajesticProfession34@reddit
... someone to do it for me, while I complain about things.
VTHMgNPipola@reddit
Making an operating system for a barely supported platform is an absolutely massive task that requires teams of developers, it's not like he can do something.
MajesticProfession34@reddit
Well, in regard to OPs main issues, none are really insurmountable problems in Android.
Overall, OPs complaints boil down to being annoyed that massive tech companies are focusing on their core demographic and money maker instead of producing niche loss making devices for a few specific use cases.
Google have got the mainstream market solved. Now they're focusing on the "nice to haves" and the merge with desktop functionality. It's happening, and will be coming by android 16. OP just needs more patience and a sense of scope.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
MajesticProfession34@reddit
No problem, so you don't need VNC for this. The way I do it is using tmux, proot distro, and remote tunnels in vscode. That way you just remote into the container you create via VSCode directly without the need for a desktop environment.
https://github.com/termux/proot-distro
https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/remote/tunnels
The above links have most of the information you need to get that working. I have this setup on a tablet that I have with my during my commute. It works perfectly.
Here it is in action: https://imgur.com/a/EYkCSMz
On the right is Vscode, remoted into the container which you can see running in termux on the left. I've got rustlings open to show it's actually running locally.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
That's because I can't do it myself! I wasted 1 year trying to get Linux on the Galaxy S10; it's too much for me! I have a few options:
MajesticProfession34@reddit
Well, that terrible OS has been working on native virtualization. So, here you go: https://www.androidauthority.com/android-linux-terminal-app-3489887/
Soon you'll be able to run a Linux container and be officially supported. Although you can currently do that now with some setup.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
still only a container...
MajesticProfession34@reddit
No pleasing some people.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Are my expectations too high? Shouldn't I expect to control the software on my hardware?
MajesticProfession34@reddit
Sure, make your own.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Do you find it normal that you buy a hardware you can't use as you wish?
MajesticProfession34@reddit
No. I have not encountered any limitations on any of my devices that I couldn't overcome to meet my needs. I'm sorry to hear that you haven't been able to work out a solution for yourself.
PianoAxioms@reddit
While I complain about things I'm paying thousands of dollars for...
WhoIsSidi@reddit
This is some "old man yelling at clouds" type post if I've ever seen one.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Am I not allowed to have an opinion on the current state of phones?
sludgeriffs@reddit
I don't think you'll find very many people here will disagree with your overall point. It's just a cringey, massive eyeroll of a post. It's somehow simultaneously preaching to the choir while also coming across as very out of touch.
WhoIsSidi@reddit
You explained it perfectly.
WhoIsSidi@reddit
Where did I say you weren't not allowed to have an opinion? I just gave my opinion on your opinion.
tacticalTechnician@reddit
Yes, and people are allowed to disagree and think it's stupid.
Naive-Low-9770@reddit
Those gash darn Meddling Kids with thier tiktoks and thier ai image features
OutrageousAd4420@reddit
Putting on LineageOS makes older phones feel like a new phone. You can install some limited Google services or just skip them completely. Opencamera lets you specify save path fyi.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
I mean specifying the file path when an app asks to load a photo. Also, Lineage isn't any more useful than Android except privacy.
DownvoteEvangelist@reddit
You could easily build File Manager image picker that would let you do that... I'd even expect most file manager to allow you to use them for picking photos...
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Do you know the new photo picker? Some apps force me to use it to upload photos.
DownvoteEvangelist@reddit
Maybe you can clear defaults or something and then you could choose again, feels weird that someone hard coded specific picker... You could probably use intent sniffer or something to find out what's happening...
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
It's hardcoded in Android for "privacy". Part of the system shell.
This is what I mean
fuckspez-FUCK-SPEZ@reddit
Sadly most of os alternatives only works for pixel phones.
dcherryholmes@reddit
Not true. GrapheneOS (a great project IMO) only works on Pixel phones. Probably the next-largest but far from the only ROM is LineageOS, and it runs on lots of different devices.
OutrageousAd4420@reddit
Check XDA forums, there are plenty of roms for other phones. Mostly one offs though.
fschpp@reddit
I really miss my nokia n900 with debian compatible OS
firebreathingbunny@reddit
You can load PostmarketOS and similar distros on some currently-shipping Android devices. Read the docs.
X_m7@reddit
Which ones are you thinking of? Looking at the postmarketOS the only Android device that both has half decent support and can still be bought new is the Fairphone 4, and even then its wiki page says that battery, audio, camera, GPS, mobile data and external display support is "broken", and calls are marked as "partial": https://wiki.postmarketos.org/wiki/Devices
firebreathingbunny@reddit
It is what it is.
NeatYogurt9973@reddit
It's MUSL/Linux
Michaeli_Starky@reddit
Android is great. The hell are you talking about?
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Great... er than iOS, maybe.
fanfarius@reddit
Android is Linux, fundamentally: https://source.android.com/docs/core/architecture/kernel
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
It isn't Unix-like. It uses the Linux kernel, but it's crippled to only run a JVM. That's why I'm calling it Java phone.
OverjoyedBanana@reddit
He said GNU Linux, not Linux with a crippled userspace bodged by Google
iCapn@reddit
Or as I prefer to call it, Linux+crippling userspace bodged by Google
elliasdev@reddit
Look into GrapheneOS. With optional sandboxed Play Services it offers perhaps best mobile security plus excellent usability in the market. I use it myself. https://grapheneos.org
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
Read the first line...
Negative_Pink_Hawk@reddit
It's pretty nit, I'm on it now and it rules
2034a@reddit
For photos, you can use Libre Câmera. You can download it on F-Droid.
Gugalcrom123@reddit (OP)
I use Open Camera. I was just saying that the focus of current phones is useless.
Vasant1234@reddit
You can run GNU/Linux Desktop on several phones such as the Motorola Edge 30 Pro, Motorola Edge X30, Motorola Edge+ 2022 and Motorola ThinkPhone that are based on the Snapdragon 1 Gen 8 SOC. Here is a video of this in action :
https://youtu.be/hQqcjwKO9d0?si=NF5fG665cfuQXS6a
RegularOrdinary9875@reddit
Take huawei
Appropriate_Cat5316@reddit
Because of how Amazingly well Bluetooth headphones work with it?
I'm not bitter...
dirtycimments@reddit
What i want is the same as for my computer, my phone getting BETTER after updates, not slower!
Fwidjewator@reddit
I don't necessarily disagree with having control over my phone, but honestly, to me, it just sounds like you want a laptop, not a smartphone. And they already exist, and even come pre-installed with Linux these days.
UncleBilla@reddit
Termux for the win