Absolutely it does. Mine at 3900 pounds will destroy a set of PS4S at auto cross or track days. I have to use endurance 200 track tires to get any relevant tire life when push pushing hard.
Mine is a street/ track hybrid. -2.2 F and R camber, 1/32F and 3/32 R toe . It’s good for the street and acceptable at auto cross but not ideal. And definitely not enough at the track. But even if I was able to crank it down to the -3.5 camber. End of the day, it’s a 500 hp sedan with 3900 pounds behind it. It eats tires.
Trust me, as someone who tracks and autocorosses. I’m painfully aware. To stay in stock class I can’t do any modifications to the suspension. So the factory -2.2 is what I have to deal with.
With endurance 200 and proper tire management. I can get reasonable for the class life expectancy. This car will never ever be easier on consumables like a Miata will. Nor is there aftermarket support, to get the camber to -3 1/2 or more.
If you're not running a052s or re71rs you're noncompetitive anyways so you may as well ignore street rules and bump yourself up
Tire life expectancy for me is usually more heat cycling them into the ground which hard caps you at roughly a year of events, so any wear is kinda meaningless anyways
I do it for fun, training and personal bests. I stay in F stock since my local class has some superb competitors. Makes the events more eventful.
With big weight and HP cars, we tend to cord the tire before they heat cycle out. With endurance 200 + proper flip and rotations. I’ll heat cycle them out just as the center and outside hit cords.
With endurance 200 I also save $$ over the year. Fast tires on my car just get eaten up too quickly
My track tires lasted 20k on the road with drag strip fun days peppered in. I'll be using radials next year and am debating riding these things to 30k but switch the vehicle to actually be a cruiser/touring. Longer road trip type car instead of redline drives to take my stress away haha.
No doubt. If the word autocross is in your vocabulary then it's a new set after track day or else you are on borrowed time. It's the price we pay lol
It's a 21 mustang gt with a drag oriented build. Lowered, stiffened, FBO, custom tuned to e85, 10R80 tranny. Ran an 11.8 on the damn Nitto track tires and put a smile on my face. Just couldn't ever do it again because of wear. Consistently ran mid 12s when I go there just to clown around and leave TC fully on.
With a spare set of wheels and track tires, most of us can manage a year of track use on them. Miata guys get that from fast super 200, us heavy and powerful F stock cars need endurance 200 to do that. Plus we need to flip the tires and rotate a square set up. Mira just shows up lol.
500hp is plenty on the street. I’m at 500 and im perfectly content. Traction limitation keeps me from going more. Plus a tune knocks me out of F stock class.
I am unfortunately not squared up but will be probably before January. 11 wide is cute and looks badass but offers minimal improvements and all of the bullshit (can't rotate).
Oh absolutely a track Alignment will make a giant difference and you’ll get considerably better tire life, grip, better lap times.
But I also don’t want to do Alignment as often. So with endurance 200 tires and a mild set up I’m at acceptable tire losses. If I get one year out of them, I’m OK.
Hankook RS4 and continental extreme contact force. They are track tires with a focus on consistency and longevity. Super 200 like RE71RS and advan A052 are all about grip and fast lap times. But once they get too hot they fall off pace.
In the US, heavy trucks (semis etc) and other heavy vehicles do maybe 98% of the weight related damage to roads. A thousand pounds extra on a commuter car barely moves the numbers.
Stress on a road by a vehicle increases to the 4th power of its axle load.
So whilst you’re very much correct that lorries do the vast majority of damage, even 1000lbs extra will have a huge knock on effect given the relative huge volume of passenger vehicles compared to lorries.
Which is becoming readily apparent in the UK (not talking about the US) because our roads are often most shocking in the suburbs.
Mmm. I ran the math a few years ago, I'd need to re-run it again to see the change. Because it's talking about weight load per axle, and an eighteen-wheeler has (usually) 5 axles at a maximum of 80k pounds (16k lb / 8 short tons per axle on average), the difference between a car and truck is too large for an extra 500lb per axle to make much difference.
The ratios are as follows:
Start by defining "1" as a 3500lb car is 1750lb/axle: some constant multiplied by 1750 lb to the 4th power is 1750 ^ 4 = k x 9.379×10¹² = "1"
Then for a 4500lb car (2250lb per axle, or 1.125 short tons): k x 2250 ^ 4 = k x 2.563×10¹³. The ratio 2.563×10¹³ / 9.379×10¹² =~ 2.73 times the wear from adding a thousand pounds.
Then for an eighteen-wheeler with 16k-lb per axle: k x 16000^4 = k x 6.554×10¹⁶. The ratio here is 6.554×10¹⁶ / 9.379×10¹² =~ 6988.
So a fully loaded eighteen-wheeler does ~6988x the stress to a road versus a 3500lb car.
If you compare to a 4500lb car, that's 6988 / 2.73 =~ 2560x the ratio.
Well, yknow, I think you might be right. If you take every heavy vehicle, multiply by the average annual miles of that vehicle class, and assume it's loaded half the time and empty (still heavy enough) the other half the time, and get a ~50:1 ratio vs passenger cars, in this instance you would see a ~50:2.7 ratio which means trucks would fall to doing ~95% of the damage to roads.
Brake discs as well.
Funny how these cars that are ‘better for the environment because there’s less fumes’ create all kinds of wear on the roads, their discs wear out fast and their tires also decay way faster.
Perhaps it’s a net positive, but if your goal is truly to fix the environment then they’d make a lighter car. It’s all window dressing and greenwashing…
No it isn't. The majority of the people buying these cars want an appliance that gets them from a to b with minimum maintenance requirements and cheap fueling. EVs don't have "dirty" engines that need water pumps, timing belts/chains, oil, filters, or gasoline, and the brakes last "forever". They can also power your home in a power outage. I'm not saying this as someone who owns an EV, but as someone who knows people that own EVs and have been told why it appeals to them.
I don't think anyone buys an S5 to save the environment. But don't heavy EVs and plug-in hybrids use regenerative braking often enough to limit brake pad wear?
Particle emissions from brakes and tires are a big issue overall but it's multiple orders of magnitude lesser of an issue than tailpipe emissions. It's not close, a debate, or a balance. Both need to be solved but engine emissions first by a long shot.
You lose soo much Safety when you have to wrestle 4,300lbs+++
FIFY
The car industry is currently in a bad spiral where increased safety is increasing vehicle weight and size, which then increases the need for more safety. The push towards heavier electrified vehicles hasn't helped either in that regard.
Oh yeah, you lose a lot of driving dynamics when you have to wrestle a 4300 pound car. And you’re correct that you lose a lot of safety at that weight too.
An emergency maneuver it’s going to take a much more skilled driver to do a moose test. And a 4300 pound car versus 3500. It’s simple physics. Modern tires and suspension design can massage and smooth a lot of it out. But it’s still a lot of mass to handle.
It’s an example of what a driver would encounter. During that encounter a lower weight car will be easier to manage vs a heavyweight. Less weight is easier to initiate the turn, it’s easier to transition back as well.
No. Moose tests are not a test of underlying vehicle dynamics, those are 3rd order importance at best. That's why many sports sedans fail the test at lower speeds often since they oversteer spin due to lenient ESC. Controlling grip during the maneuver is the task of tire grip and ESC, vehicle weight itself has very little effect one way or other.
We will not agree. Less agree to disagree. Bricks you’re ignoring basic physics and being pedantic. The moose dodge then, where a driver has to attempt to stay in control during an emergency dodge and back into the lane. A heavier vehicle will be harder to manner then a lighter one. A S class won’t do it as well as a corvette.
reading about quick tire and brake wear just reminded me how since I’m poor I can only afford a civic which I can get 30-35k miles and even a lot longer for brakes 😌
Or they could also focus on making accidents less harmful to people not in the vehicle being tested. NHTSA ratings don't account at all for whether a given car might demolish anything it hits so long as the people inside are safe.
Well yeah, vehicle safety (from the NTHSA's perspective, and most buyers) only looks at how safe the occupants of that car are in an accident.
Other than rollovers and very limited other exceptions, it completely ignores: (1) whether a car's design could lead to more accidents (or worsen accidents); (2) what happens to occupants of other vehicles involved; or (3) pedestrians, etc.
Which is why on paper a ~7000lb F-250 crew cab is just as safe as a 2300lb Fiat 500
When you are chasing higher efficiency requirements alot has to be done to gas engines to keep them efficient. Adding so much complexity and weight to make last gen propulsion tech efficient when going fully electric would weigh slightly less, have a better CG, less complexity and better power delivery. Also most consumers want a refined, safe and comfortable driving experience which requires more NVH and structural considerations which increases weight.
I absolutely would understand cars getting heavier at the consumer level. But high-performance variance getting this fat and heavy is a hard pill to swallow. M3/5 consumer doesn’t care about MPG, the government does sure.
The m3 and m5 shouldn’t be this complicated and heavy. The new c63Se being heavier then S class is absurd.
I think the demographic and market for these cars have changed. Most people who own these expensive cars rarely will push them to even half of their capabilities so sheer performance at the expense of comfort isn't really an acceptable compromise to the product managers. Who has close to 80-100k to spend on a car and out of those people who is likely to beat on the car and drive it in a performance oriented way?
Since most of these performance variants share the same chassis and platform as the consumer variant, it's going to end up making the performance variants weigh more.
That's what people probably should do but the market research that audi has done shows otherwise. They want to make sure they can sell their cars and that will come at the expense of not catering to the 10% of enthusiasts.
While the demographic may have changed over the years. Putting more importance on straight line, acceleration and speed. Especially with the rising of EV powertrain.
The industry is losing its way when it comes to weight management. The C8 Corvette is 3800 pounds. Absurdly heavy for what’s touted as a pure sports car.
The problem I see with these really heavy performance cars is that the heavier your car is. The stiff for your suspension must be to handle the weight. Combine that with the modern trend of super low profile skinny tires. Rides get harsher and harsher and their fix is complicated air suspension set ups.
Look at the Miata. It’s so lightweight that even with max performance summer tires. Club spec and bilstien performance shocks. The handling is super supple and comfortable on bad roads. New c63Se is getting criticized for absolutely harsh ride. Which of course when you’re managing 4600+ pounds is gonna happen.
You can't compare a Miata to luxury German sedans. They are fundamentally different vehicles with different goals and audiences. There is a reason why many people keep a Miata as a weekend car and some other car as their daily. The refinement and quality you are paying for in a luxury German sports sedan is going to add weight.
The closest you are going to get to a "Miata" philosophy in a sports sedan is ironically a Tesla Plaid since it was designed to be as light as it can be since it has to have a heavy battery pack mounted low in the car and has a very barebones interior further reducing weight. Sports sedans are fundamentally a compromise and you aren't going to get Miata level handling in that package anymore. Maybe back in the 90s it was possible since those cars had weaker chassis and less fancy interiors and simpler engine tech but I think those days are gone.
I’m not using them as a direct comparison. It’s to show that when the car has less weight you can still put performance suspension on the car while having a soft and compliant ride. Lotus being a prime example
In a direct comparison would be a CLK, not a plaid. 2010 clk55 is 3300ish lbs while still riding comfortably but sporty. Its a luxury 2 door that’s middle weight but still has the luxury refinement
People keep the Miata as a weekend vehicle because it’s impractical due to being small and two door. You can only fit one passenger and very little luggage.
It doesn’t matter what consumers want. All of these cars are built to the strictest emissions and efficiency standards. You cannot put in a high output gasoline engine alone that meets these regulations.
Modern engines pretty much have to be small-displacement for highway efficiency. Then, the only way to get meaningful power is to shove in high amounts of boost (most of these are running well over 20psi). Then you have a ton of lag and drive-ability issues (not to mention huge fuel consumption on-boost). You now need electric motors to torque-fill and smooth the boost surge. Now you need batteries to store energy for the electric motors and brake regen systems to replenish them.
This is the modern high-performance formula. The only way around it is a tiny NA engine (well under 3L) pushing a tiny car, like the miata. The days of NA engines >3.5L that are available around the world (not just the US) are effectively over.
Nah, I agree with him. And yes, I have the sports diff.
It's too isolated to have good dynamics - the steering is extremely vague with virtually no feel.
It's a very, very good all weather commuter - fast, quiet, comfortable with an excellent, well thought out interior - it was exactly what I was looking for.
People seem to get really wound up about dynamics - but it honestly does not matter to most buyers. And if it does, Miatas, Porsches, ect. all exist.
Many cars with mediocre driving dynamics corner incredibly fast. TT-RS grips like crazy with the optional tires, but you can’t feel a thing through the steering wheel.
Yes, I had many 3 series. My last one in 2019 was over 3700 lbs. then got a 22 wrx that weighs only 3300 and the imoact on handling and agility is noticeable. Also, like someone said, the tires dint ear on the edges like they do with a heavier car
3300 is around the sweet middle weight spot. Our c5 is 3200 and handles amazingly. At autocross with stock alignment it doesn’t chew up sidewalls too bad.
My car even with a more aggressive alignment will chew up non track tires if you let it.
Oh I definitely wasn’t comparing them haha. Both different driving experiences for sure. Just saying Porsche did a good job with the driving dynamics of a car the size/weight of the Macan
My 5,000 lb Cayenne handles much better than anything that big should and that's part of the fun. Porsche suspension engineering is the real deal. It doesn't mask the weight, it just controls it really well, so the overall effect is a ton of grip and stability and confidence at speed.
Yeah! I like to think of Cayennes has awesome family haulers that aren’t boring to drive haha. They’re awesome people/stuff haulers as long as you have the money.
You’d be surprised. Rich dudes that brag about owning a new X3M, they take it to a track day to say they did and how well it did. They don’t tell you it cooked the brake pads, and shredded a 1500$ set of tires.
I was gonna say, "The S in SUV means 'Sport', so it's a 2-door. Like the original SUVs". But the definiteion of SUV has changed a LOT in 20-30 years. 2-doors, 4x4 off road, and a truck ladder frame? SUV. 4-door Cadillac 2wd street queen? SUV. Squished and stretched economy car with a 1inch lift, 4 doors and no performance capability of any kind? SUV.
To be fair you asked “who is tracking SUV’s” he gave you a factual answer. That 1% is the rich dudes who can track those and destroy consumables in 1 day. Then brag about it at the bar.
Yeah like if your car is heavy but mid engined (like a lot of these hybrid supercars coming out) you can still have amazing handling due to the physicality of the cars weight distribution. But if your car is heavy, but is front engined with the engine thrown out in front of the front axle, like these Audis, then you have to compensate elsewhere with computer wizardry to get it to go around bends.
And while that might be effective, the car just feels one note. As if your playing a video game. No texture or interesting body motions. It's why a Miata is so much fun. Because the car is moving and rolling and almost like you can feel each and every movement of it as you go through a bend. It becomes way more thrilling that way.
I’ve never driven a Miata for comparison, but my 2012 Chrysler 300S is 4600 lbs but handles quite well. I’ve thrown it into corners rated for 35 MPH at 65+ with no tire squeal, minimal body roll, and full confidence.
In discussions, "handling" is generally a matter of feel, while "grip" is numerical ability.
With good tires, I believe a 300S can corner at relatively high speed; magazine reviews from when they were released show around 0.85g lateral cornering force, which is probably on crappy low-rolling-resistance tires and is still better than a lot of crossovers can do. The relatively low center of gravity also helps that feel not completely terrifying.
But the handling still sucks ass. The steering is vague and has no real feel or feedback. Once traction is lost, it's not going to hold a mad drift and finish the corner in style, it's either going to understeer lamely or it's going to flop around and if traction/stability control doesn't step in it might spin.
Thank you for the explanation of the difference instead of just downvoting. I did have pretty good tires on it at the time, General G-Max RSes, now running Toyo Proxes STIIIs. It’s a solid car, suspension is tighter than a standard 300 touring but not quite as fancy as an SRT, and I wish I had a good place to practice drifting it and really push its limits. I’m sure it’s truly garbage compared to say a Porsche or a ZL1 Vette but I’ve never run one of those to compare against.
Lol I do that shit with my cx5 turbo, convince myself it handled it well, then get reminded at just how shitty it actually was when I'm in my mustang which has the work put in to make cornering excellent.
The 300 being able to corner just depends on where the point of reference is. I'd love to take those same corners you speak of.
Back roads in Oklahoma between Stillwater and Woolaroc, it’s certainly no touge road but decently curvy and hilly.
My points of reference, well, you see them in my banner - second lightest car I own is a ‘71 C10 with farmtruck drivetrain under it and it’s wrapped out at 70 mph lol. I would love to get behind the wheel of a Vette or Miat someday to compare.
So I'll say this. In the opposite direction as well. My truck was bad at cornering. Then, 2 weeks ago, I leveled the front end 2.5" and now it is really, really bad at cornering. To the point where I'd actually say it was good prior to raising the front end. Which, of course, is not true. It was always bad
As someone who owned a Miata ND, has a c5 Vett and a heavy powerful sedan. If you think your car handles well then you should absolutely try an a Miata or a Corvette.
Even the 300 SRT8 I drove, felt pig heavy. Sure it can handle its weight well. but the moment you drive a true light or middleweight car it’ll open your eyes.
Turo has some fun cars on rent. I’ve seen a few Miata and corvettes. Give them a try. Even at Publix roadways safe speeds. You’ll feel the difference. Stopping distance and corners especially
At that point, why not just make a body-on-frame yacht that’s at least comfortable? It already drives like dogshit once it’s that heavy, might as well go all the way. 2+ tons is never going to be a “sports” car.
Probably somewhat more expensive initially, since you need to develop 2 separate “parts,” but once you have the frame, it’s a lot cheaper to keep developing new bodies for it. You just can’t make as radical of changes to the architecture from generation to generation without developing a whole new frame though.
It's an explanation why it might be heavier generally, but I wouldn't say an M5 being 5400lbs is understandable solely because of that.
Either way, an SF90 is a v8 PHEV and is 3500lbs, but even looking among the PHEVs that are actually comparable it isn't hard to find ones that are 2-300 lbs lighter.
The sad part is that most of us enthusiast are 2nd or 3rd owners. So the manufacturers aren't even making money off of us. That's why they don't care about our opinion.
It’s funny you say that because our house made an exact video on this. It was pertaining to the New 370 Z. And they made it super clear that the second and third owners are us. There’s only one car I’ve ever bought you and it was a really good deal when I worked at Chevy.
It was a diesel sedan that I bought for fuel efficiency . All our performance cars have been secondhand or certified Freon.
I saw that video I think. Lol. I bought a GTI new, but only because it was $5k off sticker in the good old days before the pandemic. But since then my cars have been used. I currently am 3rd owner of my fun car the OG Z4. 😂
yeah water is wet but performance cars aren't typically 4500 pounds lol. this is surprising to people thats why it's being talked about. a subaru outback is 1000 pounds less
E63S, bmw M5, corvette C8, Camaro ZL1. All heavier cars and the lightest starting at 3600lbs. They are performance cars, maybe not sports cars. But no one that’s educated will say these heavy boys aren’t performance cars.
I wish I could say it was just a Germans, but it’s happening to everyone. It’s fine for a luxury car but not luxury performance.
Honestly, I don’t see myself buying any new car realistically. If my wife’s Corvette gets totaled, then we’re getting a C7 Corvette. Or a sixGEN Camaro SS1LE. If my car gets wrecked, I might go back to Miata. Or Corvette again.
Starting to think it's just a side effect of more demanded safety features and more speed regulation :/
Lighter cars are so much more efficient and fun to drive
it may have gotten better, but my boss has one of the first gen model 3s and the interior is appalling. The seats are some of the cheapest cloth seats I have sat on in a loooong time.
In what way? Model 3 might feel better though it's subjective but it's of poorer quality and far less user-friendly. I'd take an interior of a $20k msrp Kia Forte any day over what's in the Model 3. Absolutely fuck changing gears on a touchscreen.
For sure true. UX is terrible. I took OP's comment as referring to material and quality. Test drove a few and they were super nice inside compared to a family members base Jetta (which is not a bad car). Soft touch materials everywhere, no creaking or anything. Surprisingly quiet inside too. Felt like a $40k car, which is about where it is iirc.
But I haven't spent much time in a pre 2024. I heard that this year was a big step up. and knowing Tesla, ymmv
I've only been in a model 3 once (2024 model) and during the test drive the panel on the rear of the seat fell off. The plastics felt very cheap as well when you touched anything
What has this to do with the weight discussion? And what's wrong with people having different preferences about the interiors? There are car enthusiasts, commuters, and then there are grannies who want things the old-fashioned way that's ultra-comfortable.
Many commuters would take a base Toyota Corolla or Model 3 over a BMW 7 series without adaptive cruise control any day.
I've never understood this one. If you compare the Model 3 and Y, the interior materials are equal quality to all competitors. I completely disagree with this hater take. This is especially true for the new Model 3.
Step into a Q4 E-Tron (which is much more expensive), an Ioniq 5/6, Kia EV6, BMW ix1, they all have nasty ass plastic the exact same places.
Less expensive interiors typically use materials that don't weigh as much and/or simply use less material overall to keep costs down. Whereas an expensive interior is going to use lots of real leather, have more seat adjustability, have more buttons/switches/screens, double-paned/sound-insulated glass, more extensive use of sound deadening overall, heated/cooled seats, massaging seats, premium sound systems, and so on that increase weight. The weight difference can easily be hundreds of kilograms as a result.
Many commuters would take a base Toyota Corolla or Model 3 over a BMW 7 series without adaptive cruise control any day.
I've only ever encountered this kind of opinion on the internet. Nobody that has driven/used my older 5-series has given it back and said they'd rather keep their because my 5 lacks ACC for their commute compared to their car.
What's special about the weight in double paned glass & sound deadening or heated & cooled seats? They are included even on a base Model 3. If fancy massage seats is the difference in how much your preferred Euro cars weigh, well, good for you I guess.
Come to the Bay Area and take a look for yourself and see which cars are people actually driving. Most FANG engineers and VC people could easily afford an Audi S-series or BMW 7 without ACC. Weirdly enough, these cars are the classic definitions of being full of bells and whistles without substance. Nobody is buying them anymore. https://www.motor1.com/news/730818/mercedes-s-class-production-reduced/
To be fair, it's a brain dead comment from someone who hasn't sat in many cars. Tesla has some issues and the fit and finish on delivery sucks. But I have owned a moderate variety of non-luxury vehicles and the Tesla has a nicer feeling interior than all of them.
Usually this comes from people who just hate the brand or dislike the strategy of having most controls located in the center screen.
So while they may not be a bot, it's functionally the same as an NPC that saw a trigger word and rambled off some useless dialog.
The model 3 interior is way too fancy, so does that mean I want a 10k car?
Like I just want a cushy drivers leather seat and beyond that... Uhh knobs for the radio, tactile buttons for the climate control... And yeah don't care beyond that.
Because the E39 platform is nearly perfect in almost all other aspects. The L6 sedans are nearly 300kg lighter though, bulletproof reliable, and extremely capable tuners to boot. FWIW the stock suspension is way more comfortable than modern BMW's too despite having minimal body roll and squat/dive. Plus the ergonomics aren't designed for someone with slenderman hands.
Haha I think the E39 has kinda died off in hype in the past few years. Haven't heard about it much. Around COVID era, it was super popular to talk about for some reason
It’s sad to say but Audis are no longer built for handling and driving dynamics. They’re tech focused grand tourers that arent designed for even light track duty. Yes the RS3 might be the one exception.
I mean the R8 is an all time great. The early S4s were also pretty great if you could keep them mechanically functional. For a time they definitely challenged BMW in the sport sedan segment, but kind of gave up on that.
I'm not sure I'd go that far with the R8, but in either case you can thank the fine folks in Bologna for that one.
The B5 is cool and I've always liked them, but driving dynamics weren't really their forte. Putting an engine way out ahead of the front axle isn't a recipe for success.
You're not wrong about driving dynamics from a spirited driving standpoint. While I think the whole understeer complaints are generally overblown (you gotta be doing some stupid shit on the road to really feel it), they don't want to be pushed in the way old BMWs were.
However, old A4s just drove...nice. B5 through B8 all just had this nice weighty feel. Well weighted steering, best in class suspension, great build quality. My mom still drives an ancient, beat-to-hell B5 and I adore driving that car whenever I visit.
To me, absolutely not. But each on their own. I'd even rather have the 2021 A7 to my current C7 A7, even though I like the styling and design. Korean makers have copied the Germans for the past few years with a big hand, hence they look half-decent nowadays. Also because they don't have as dedicated of a buyer base, they can deviate from their previous designs by a lot without sacrificing previous owners.
Whatever most German designers are doing nowadays though, I don't understand..
Personally, as a former B7 RS4 and B8 S5 owner, I think audi design peaked at about 2013-2015 and has only been downhill from there. They're so overstyled and imo almost all their redesigns made the cars worse like the TTRS, R8, S4, etc etc.
I have a similar car in mind. There's an unmolested E92 M3 in the parking lot of a gym I drive by when I go to work. I swear to god I give it a big Italian chef kiss every time I pass it. The owner always parks head-in so everyone can appreciate its rear end.
I think BMW started to lose the plot in 2018, with the exception of the F90.
The OG R8 is peak design. Futuristic and fancy without anything approaching gaudy and no retro cues at all. And then all of the cars which then followed the same design language look great too, I'm not a fan of all the sharp angles on the current models.
Is copying really the right word? The people who are designing korean cars used to work for the germans. The designer for the kia stinger is the same guy who made the audi TT for example. I think they look decent because the designers have a lot of freedom and it helps that korean cars go through a refresh every few years instead of 5-6 years lol.
People keep saying this, the new Kia K4 to me looks as bad as the Pontiac Aztec.
Every time the Germans, particularly BMW comes up with a new design everyone laments it, to only talk fondly of it years later. I can recall how upset people were with the E90 generation 3 series, and now you hear praise of its design today.
have to disagree. the stinger looks decent, certainly the best looking car kia offers, but the a7 is the best looking sedan/hatchback on the market currently
the chinese designers are basically ripping off everyone else's designs. mclaren and porsche in particular.
they have good taste at least, but if you look at cars a lot, many of the chinese ones look like frankensteins monster amalgamations of existing european designs
You'd think they're just chinese copies but then you learn that many of these brands, like BYD/NIO/Chery/Xpeng just employed european designers as their chief designers.
the su7 is a taycan with 720s headlights for example. not the same designers, the same designs. the vent behind the front fender, the hood slope and the slope to the trunk, etc.
the same designers can still make new designs of the same style. however, many of the chinese designs are copy pastes of existing designs, not just similar styles
see the su7 pic in my other response. it's the same design, not just by the same designers.
Chris Bangle was the design consultant for the SU7. The design team also included former BMW designers who worked on the iX an iVision concept cars, and former Mercedes designers who worked on the EQXX. It's a distinctly European-trained design team. Taycan with 720s headlights. There are also elements of European concept cars. In other words, there are elements of several different European marques in the design. Shock of shocks, a European design team designed a generically European-looking car.
I was actually thinking of the same car when you mentioned them copying porsche and mclaren. It's pretty damning. I guess what I wanted to say was that it's euro designers approving the copying.
Mid 2010s euro cars peaked in terms of performance, looks, and technology. They’ve all taken such a nosedive recently becoming these edgy GTA looking, bloated, gimmicky messes
Porsche would disagree. Even BMW is still making some good cars. Supra is pretty cool. Lots of cool new American cars. Audi has just completely sold out to the CUV crowd
Lol ok. Base cayman 3100lbs $75k. Supra 3400 lbs under $60k. Elantra N 3200lbs for $34k. Not even mentioning Miata. Average used car costs something like $27k
I honestly think the first half of the 2020s may later be looked back on as a great age for daily performance cars and hot hatches. New WRX, GR Corolla, Elantra N, KIA Stinger, Golf GTI and R, Civic Si and Type R, new GR86 and BRZ, ND2 & ND3 Miata, Camaro & Mustang.
Every single car on that list still has a six-speed manual available. They range from sub 30 to mid 40s at a time where the average cost of a new car is pushing 50,000. Plenty of options in FWD, RWD, and AWD. Hatchbacks with great legroom, sedans, and 2 door coupes. Several of those cars are under 3000 lbs! And some of the heavier ones have well over 300 HP! You have to be an insane hater of modern cars to not want any of those options.
I couldn’t agree more we’re in a golden age for cars as we approach the end of the ICE.
The haters are just those who will never buy a new car. And by the way wouldn’t have bought a new e46 m3 back then anyway (or whatever their view of the “golden age” is).
I’m shopping for a track capable sports sedan, likely between a used M340i or F80 M3. But a new Elantra N is a legit contender. Would be a slightly more budget pick and I don’t love the looks but man it’s pretty compelling.
Nah get a grassroots motorsports magazine from 2000. Back then amateur competitive drivers were buying newish cars like that e46 m3, fd rx7, etc. Today they are still mostly driving early 2000s cars
People still race old Miatas and bmws because they’re cheap and simple to fix, and racing is extremely expensive. But plenty of people take brand new cars to the track
Seriously, as long as I can remember people have basically been saying cars were “better 10 years ago” and that they don’t need all the new bells and whistles and whatnot.
Was so underrated when it came out too just because of the halo around the predecessor. Now I feel like it’s getting appreciated and will only continue to be more so.
If your retort is a strut rear car with a hot motor and some aero bits, then we obviously have vastly different sets of priorities when it comes to cars.
No they dont. I get that euro sports sedans have gotten fatter and less engaging but most new cars drive really great and are really nice to be in across the board.
Not to metion economy cars have really gotten more upscale. I was blown away by the current civic and mazda 3. Ended up with a mk8 gti which is not too bad at 3150 lbs.
If nothing else, the safety aspect of any new vehicle isn't to be understated especially if you have children for example.
My nephew is getting to the age where he is learning to drive and getting into cars. I would love to open his eyes and show him some variety, but there is no fucking way I am putting that kid in anything older than 5yrs and under 3000lb for a spirited drive (as a passenger of course, he can get behind the wheel with a couple years under his belt)
Frankly, I am getting to the age myself where enough people are dependent on me that I couldn't really justify a serious compromise in safety for the most pure drivers experience of something vintage.
Technology and regulation isn't just iPads on the dash and electrification of everything, its also seriously raised the bar for all metrics of safety and especially the passive safety of physical crash structures and metallurgy that get overlooked for the red herring of active braking and that sort of gimmicks.
I really, really, really do not understand the purpose of the ICE German sport sedan segment.
Take away the manual for a smooth shifting dual clutch that is always in the proper gear for power delivery.
Add an immense amount of sound deadening to hide all that pesky noise, then reintroduce that noise with fake sounds piped in.
Make sure that the engine is absolutely as smooth and unnoticeable as possible. No peaky dramatic power trains here. Also, slap some turbos on that bad boy to kill any noise it might actually produce.
Oh shit, now it weighs over two tons? Better make it AWD as well. We need to throw on a very special suspension setup as well to mask all that weight high up.
Seriously, at this point just make it an EV and be done with it. I know it’s a hot take for this subreddit, but unless a car actually maximizes the perks of ICE with light weight, manually transmissions, and a great sounding engine then making it an EV gives you all the perks of low noise, lower COG, and linear power delivery.
I’m just sad that of all the manufacturers for luxury sedans, the only ones who get this memo are the Blackwing twins and the Integra Type S.
That's the formula you needed the Germans for before EVs. Keeping them around is mostly a formality, and/or enjoying the engineering challenge of making a "flawless" ICE car
The S5 isn't built to be a sport sedan. It's built to be an enjoyable DD with enough power to be entertaining and enough luxury to keep your family or your clients comfy. That means power bands tuned for street use, no exhaust drone, and no jerky transmission.
Mostly agreed but idk man a nice dual clutch tranny still lets you have fun with paddle shifters while being customizable in various driving modes. People gatekeep manual too much.
Not a hot take for me, these big heavy Euro ICE/PHEV sedans honestly do strike me as "worse BEVs". Other than being slightly more convenient on a road trip I don't get the point, it's not like they deliver a "pure ICE driving experience" at all. My guess is some combo of batteries costing too much and buyers being EV-averse keeps them how they are.
I feel like we are in this weird transition period were ICE cars in certain market segments are just going to get worse and worse until they become BEVs.
Agreed. I don't understand all of these "sporty" cars that keep the ICE around yet do everything in their power to insulate the driver from it. Seems like they're focused on marketing and performance numbers above all else.
Basically. Theres the counter jerk crowd on here that will cry 'boomer' if anyone goes on about feel or experience being lost or non existent for new cars.
I want small cars back. Bring back the Chevy Spark and the Honda Fit. I want kei trucks to be the norm. Ridiculous that even with global warming cars are getting bigger and heavier.
The tough part about the fact that they’ve already been built, is that they’ve already been driven and have already started to wear and tear.
Proper maintenance goes a long way, but limited markets for repair parts, high labor costs for repairs, and the uncertainty of how previous owners treated the car makes it’s hard to jump on sometime from the used market without having some hesitation.
Auto shows have been on the decline for years. We used to go every year when I was a kid. Then every single year without fail there was less overall cars, less interesting displays, less souvenirs, more pedestrian cars gated off. A few times I went they didn’t even have the latest model year of a vehicle.
As an VAG guy there is no Audi or Porsche I want after 2019 models. Everything touch screen, so much weight added, bigger fatter cars… B5 a4 or s4 yes, B7 RS4 yes, Porsche 993, 997 yes, C7 RS6 yes, 8V RS3, Mk 4 R32…
The only new cars I want are the Corolla GR (and that’s now on the rocks because of the recent reliability issues) and BMW M3 manual. Those cars will go away by the decade’s end and then I don’t see wanting anything.
I’m also 29 and I know what you mean. There are cars I like but nothing that drives me to work harder so I can own it. Nothing that gives me that “I need to own one of these eventually” types of cars.
Audi TT - Dead
Dodge Charger V8 AWD - Dead
Honda S2000 - Dead
Ford Mustang - I like 13 year old one more than the S650. GT350 - Dead
At least Ford confirmed that they have no plans to cease production of the V8 Mustang for the foreseeable future.... . As long as carbon neutral petrol becomes cheap enough, the IC engine will continue to exist, just like mechanical watches. As long as there is demand, there will be supply. I think you can build a complete 1967 Mustang from scratch using new parts including a complete body shell.
You own an NSX and a McLaren, I really don’t think you have any thing to complain about and there will continue to be a market for expensive super cars in the future…
I totally agree with this. The cars I really want to get in my life are mostly around 15 years old at this point with some exceptions. Stuff like a manual Ferrari 360 and 458, manual gallardo, manual R8, manual GT3, manual GT4, manual spyder, a second rx7 fd, a manual swapped Ferrari 612, manual 996 and 997 turbo. That's concievably already more cars then I can even drive and enjoy in one life time. As much as I think new cars are fun and cool, they really aren't for dream cars anymore. Though I really like modern cars for daily driving haha. Up till last year the average age of cars I owned was 25 years old and it wasn't just because I'm cheap.
I heard the heavy weights of euro cars is due to a new rule in Europe about how they have to report the weights (I.e. with fluids or something). Anyone know if there is any truth to that?
They say the S5 is hatchback only in europe? But then go onto say the S5 wagon is heavier? And on the BMW German website there is an Audi S5 Sedan available?
Also the new S5 sportback in the US is basically the same weight as the previous gen S5 sportback?
mercedes c63 amg: 4817 lbs
bmw m3 xdrive: 3990 lbs
audi s5: 4299 lbs (rs5 probably will be even heavier)
tesla model 3 performance: 4045 lbs
damn i never thought the tesla will almost be the lightest car in it’s category. fuck eu regs i hate that their goal is to make cars greener but they just end up with the opposite result
We had considered Audi vehicles when we were in the market but by the time we looked the Audi I remembered had been long gone. Heavy, stagnant design and touch screens. BMW isn't any better but at least I can feel a little excited to drive our vehicles. Most modern cars aren't exciting to me anymore. A symptom of getting old and beginning to salt and pepper is my back which wasn't great to begin with has trouble with very firm suspensions. Vehicles that are will often be way out of our price range.
So no more S4? And what does this sentence mean, conveniently placed under a photo of an S5 wagon, “The new S5 isn’t sold as a sedan anymore since it’s hatchback-only now.” The s5 was already a hatchback…
S4 and S5 get merged into the s5 model name. The a4 model name is gonna be reserved for a new electric car.
Now there's just 2 body types, the s5 sedan which is a 4 door liftback just like the old s5 (but with framed windows and a more sedan like shape). This replaces the s4 sedan and s5 sportback. And the other body type is the s5 avant which replaces the s4 avant.
There was a claim from someone in the journalism world that the new European car weights were inclusive of a bunch of extra weight to make the figures realistic and that it added about 200 lbs to all car weights. like 2 passengers and some luggage? I'd have to dig on it
Curb weight is curb weight. It includes all fluids and a full tank of gas. The few remaining car magazines weigh their test cars, using the same methodology.
Almost all the sportive variants of German (and not only German) sedans are abnormally heavy. idk if this is due to the hybridization or who know. And even with these circumstances people will still buy them.
They also made the car a half size bigger now so its actually between the a6 and a4 which explains some of the weight gain. The extra rear seat and trunk space is supposed to be a selling pijt for the new gen.
Our problem is that they just throw horsepower to counter the weight, but in reality a "fun" car is tossable due to it being light... those days are gone
What the fuck is this horrible website, you can either accept tracking cookies, subscribe to their website for €3.99 a month, or send them an email to opt out of tracking cookies?
They hate you because you’re right… I keep making a point to say the crown Vic was 4,100 pounds. A Prius is 3200 pounds and a caymen is 3000 pounds. A Tesla model 3 is 4000 pounds and so is the S5. People make claims they see on the internet and just parrot them
Weight isn't really that big of an issue for most people. 90% of people never push their car hard enough for weight to be a factor. What does matter though is Center of Gravity and that is felt by most people since it directly affects the stability of the car. I would much rather have a 4000lb EV over a 4000lb gas car because of the lower CG. Also most people in here are comparing a 3200lb 200hp civic with 4000lb 500hp electric vehicles which is not a fair comparison. When you compare equal class and power vehicles with each other, there really isn't much of a weight penalty with going EV. For example an m340i weighs ~4000lbs while a model 3 dual motor also weighs ~4000lbs.
They've always been bloated heavy contraptions. Back before picking up a Mustang GT in 2016 I was test driving a few B8.5 S5's and it felt like an absolute dog. Like a european Buick Le Sabre.
It's an inevitability. Governments want more regulation, consumers want more features, they want to be insulated from the world around them, manufacturers know they have to keep the price reasonable to sell them.
As a result, you get incredibly refined vehicles that have all the tech, tons of power, tons of safety, relatively good economy, and all the comfort. The issue is that it has to be built to a price point, so the compromise is weight.
Im pretty sure a lot of this new weight problem is an EU reg on how its reported. Some German manufacturers are reporting weight with a driver (165lbs) and luggage. PHEV is a big factor too but I think its not as extreme as it seems
Meh, won't hurt the key mission of this car. I didn't get an S5 for 10/10 driving dynamics. That's foolish. It's fun to drive at sane speeds (for public roads) during my commute.
You have to wonder if there will ever be a breaking point with this—the ever-increasing demand for efficiency that is continuously counteracted by the ever-increasing bulk of modern equipment.
Wow, I remember back in 2010 thinking how heavy the 3836lb Nissan GTR was. Now that is probably considered light weight.
The BMW M2 is 3700lbs. Absolutely unreal.
My ATS with AWD/321hp V6 weighs the same as a mk7/mk8 Golf R at 3500lbs, probably the lightest of its kind, all the other comparables push much closer or even over 4k. GM with the Alpha chassis 6th gen Camaro, ATS, and stuff like the C6 Corvette only weighing 3100-3200lbs in basic trim form is awesome.
I’m very conscious about my vehicles weight. My 07 Civic Si is down to 2720lbs. My roommates GR86 is at 2870lbs.
Well, yeah, there is no incentive for a carmaker to lighten a car - most buyers don't care. Objectively the heavy cars do what they need to do for their buyers just fine too, albeit with more frequent tire and (on non-EVs) brake pad replacements. Some sports cars are an exception and are sold on lightness, of course, but this S5 is not one of them.
Spicywolff@reddit
Next week we report that water is wet, stay tuned.
I absolutely hate this trend of cars getting heavier and heavier. You lose soo much driving dynamics when you have to wrestle 4,300lbs+++
Slimy_Shart_Socket@reddit
Also chews up tires like mad.
mishap1@reddit
Goodyear is just shipping lead weights to the assembly line.
imjoeking69@reddit
Lead weights would probably make a better tire than Goodyear tbh
SanDiegoPics@reddit
They used to have a tire called the F1 eagle or something like that. That was great but I haven't seen any recommended tires from them since
Spicywolff@reddit
I don’t mind lead heavy tires if they wear like steel lol.
T-Baaller@reddit
I think they're talking about goodyear sending audi and others the lead weights to the assembly line, so they make the cars eat up tires faster.
Spicywolff@reddit
That would make more sense. I thought Goodyear got in on the fun, and sent them silly heavy tires.
Jules040400@reddit
And brakes get more expensive because you suddenly need fucking 6-piston front calipers to slow half a suburb's worth of weight down
Spicywolff@reddit
Absolutely it does. Mine at 3900 pounds will destroy a set of PS4S at auto cross or track days. I have to use endurance 200 track tires to get any relevant tire life when push pushing hard.
SRTbobby@reddit
3900lbs? Laughs in Mopar. Sorry lol my cars around 4600lbs
Spicywolff@reddit
Well yah those are boats. But old S class chassis revamped to American use was gonna be heavy.
ice445@reddit
Are you using a normal street alignment? Negative camber is important for track duty on heavy cars
Spicywolff@reddit
Mine is a street/ track hybrid. -2.2 F and R camber, 1/32F and 3/32 R toe . It’s good for the street and acceptable at auto cross but not ideal. And definitely not enough at the track. But even if I was able to crank it down to the -3.5 camber. End of the day, it’s a 500 hp sedan with 3900 pounds behind it. It eats tires.
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
Anything less than -3.8 front just puts the entire weight of the car on the outside 1/3 of the outside front tires in turns
Spicywolff@reddit
Trust me, as someone who tracks and autocorosses. I’m painfully aware. To stay in stock class I can’t do any modifications to the suspension. So the factory -2.2 is what I have to deal with.
With endurance 200 and proper tire management. I can get reasonable for the class life expectancy. This car will never ever be easier on consumables like a Miata will. Nor is there aftermarket support, to get the camber to -3 1/2 or more.
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
If you're not running a052s or re71rs you're noncompetitive anyways so you may as well ignore street rules and bump yourself up
Tire life expectancy for me is usually more heat cycling them into the ground which hard caps you at roughly a year of events, so any wear is kinda meaningless anyways
Spicywolff@reddit
I do it for fun, training and personal bests. I stay in F stock since my local class has some superb competitors. Makes the events more eventful.
With big weight and HP cars, we tend to cord the tire before they heat cycle out. With endurance 200 + proper flip and rotations. I’ll heat cycle them out just as the center and outside hit cords.
With endurance 200 I also save $$ over the year. Fast tires on my car just get eaten up too quickly
econ_dude_@reddit
My track tires lasted 20k on the road with drag strip fun days peppered in. I'll be using radials next year and am debating riding these things to 30k but switch the vehicle to actually be a cruiser/touring. Longer road trip type car instead of redline drives to take my stress away haha.
Spicywolff@reddit
What car is it? Miata and possibly older vetts(c5-6) can do 20k with super/endurance 200 tires. You’d probably long have heat cycled them out thought.
My car with endurance 200, won’t do a full year of daily and track days/ autocross
econ_dude_@reddit
No doubt. If the word autocross is in your vocabulary then it's a new set after track day or else you are on borrowed time. It's the price we pay lol
It's a 21 mustang gt with a drag oriented build. Lowered, stiffened, FBO, custom tuned to e85, 10R80 tranny. Ran an 11.8 on the damn Nitto track tires and put a smile on my face. Just couldn't ever do it again because of wear. Consistently ran mid 12s when I go there just to clown around and leave TC fully on.
Spicywolff@reddit
With a spare set of wheels and track tires, most of us can manage a year of track use on them. Miata guys get that from fast super 200, us heavy and powerful F stock cars need endurance 200 to do that. Plus we need to flip the tires and rotate a square set up. Mira just shows up lol.
500hp is plenty on the street. I’m at 500 and im perfectly content. Traction limitation keeps me from going more. Plus a tune knocks me out of F stock class.
econ_dude_@reddit
I am unfortunately not squared up but will be probably before January. 11 wide is cute and looks badass but offers minimal improvements and all of the bullshit (can't rotate).
Thanks for the reminder.
ice445@reddit
Oh of course, there's no magic bullet, but at least on my chonker it helped get more events on a set
Spicywolff@reddit
Oh absolutely a track Alignment will make a giant difference and you’ll get considerably better tire life, grip, better lap times.
But I also don’t want to do Alignment as often. So with endurance 200 tires and a mild set up I’m at acceptable tire losses. If I get one year out of them, I’m OK.
nolongerbanned99@reddit
What are endurance 200 track tires. I’ve used advan race tires on the street that had minimal life but massive grip. Same idea?
Spicywolff@reddit
Hankook RS4 and continental extreme contact force. They are track tires with a focus on consistency and longevity. Super 200 like RE71RS and advan A052 are all about grip and fast lap times. But once they get too hot they fall off pace.
doesnt_like_pants@reddit
Also ruins roads much quicker which isn’t talked about enough. Roads in the UK have become awful and heavier and heavier cars aren’t helping.
gimpwiz@reddit
In the US, heavy trucks (semis etc) and other heavy vehicles do maybe 98% of the weight related damage to roads. A thousand pounds extra on a commuter car barely moves the numbers.
doesnt_like_pants@reddit
Stress on a road by a vehicle increases to the 4th power of its axle load.
So whilst you’re very much correct that lorries do the vast majority of damage, even 1000lbs extra will have a huge knock on effect given the relative huge volume of passenger vehicles compared to lorries.
Which is becoming readily apparent in the UK (not talking about the US) because our roads are often most shocking in the suburbs.
gimpwiz@reddit
Mmm. I ran the math a few years ago, I'd need to re-run it again to see the change. Because it's talking about weight load per axle, and an eighteen-wheeler has (usually) 5 axles at a maximum of 80k pounds (16k lb / 8 short tons per axle on average), the difference between a car and truck is too large for an extra 500lb per axle to make much difference.
The ratios are as follows:
Start by defining "1" as a 3500lb car is 1750lb/axle: some constant multiplied by 1750 lb to the 4th power is 1750 ^ 4 = k x 9.379×10¹² = "1"
Then for a 4500lb car (2250lb per axle, or 1.125 short tons): k x 2250 ^ 4 = k x 2.563×10¹³. The ratio 2.563×10¹³ / 9.379×10¹² =~ 2.73 times the wear from adding a thousand pounds.
Then for an eighteen-wheeler with 16k-lb per axle: k x 16000^4 = k x 6.554×10¹⁶. The ratio here is 6.554×10¹⁶ / 9.379×10¹² =~ 6988.
So a fully loaded eighteen-wheeler does ~6988x the stress to a road versus a 3500lb car.
If you compare to a 4500lb car, that's 6988 / 2.73 =~ 2560x the ratio.
Well, yknow, I think you might be right. If you take every heavy vehicle, multiply by the average annual miles of that vehicle class, and assume it's loaded half the time and empty (still heavy enough) the other half the time, and get a ~50:1 ratio vs passenger cars, in this instance you would see a ~50:2.7 ratio which means trucks would fall to doing ~95% of the damage to roads.
If my math is right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
CousinSarah@reddit
Brake discs as well. Funny how these cars that are ‘better for the environment because there’s less fumes’ create all kinds of wear on the roads, their discs wear out fast and their tires also decay way faster.
Perhaps it’s a net positive, but if your goal is truly to fix the environment then they’d make a lighter car. It’s all window dressing and greenwashing…
verymickey@reddit
The goal with electric cars is performance, the exception being the Nissan Leaf and the Prius.
I don’t see any major brand touting their electrics as “less fumes for the environment” so not sure where the greenwashing claim is coming from
Next_Necessary_8794@reddit
No it isn't. The majority of the people buying these cars want an appliance that gets them from a to b with minimum maintenance requirements and cheap fueling. EVs don't have "dirty" engines that need water pumps, timing belts/chains, oil, filters, or gasoline, and the brakes last "forever". They can also power your home in a power outage. I'm not saying this as someone who owns an EV, but as someone who knows people that own EVs and have been told why it appeals to them.
SNRatio@reddit
I don't think anyone buys an S5 to save the environment. But don't heavy EVs and plug-in hybrids use regenerative braking often enough to limit brake pad wear?
animealt46@reddit
Particle emissions from brakes and tires are a big issue overall but it's multiple orders of magnitude lesser of an issue than tailpipe emissions. It's not close, a debate, or a balance. Both need to be solved but engine emissions first by a long shot.
Jps3rd@reddit
exactly try a tesla! I bet they go through tires in a few months with the weight of those things.
TheTense@reddit
Just make em wider and more expensive. It’s about weight per contact patch!
nolongerbanned99@reddit
Yeah, 3 series too heavy. What happens on those monsters like the x5M… must need tires at every oil change
Drzhivago138@reddit
They almost need to put LT tires on.
shlerm@reddit
There'll be someone justifying why this is ok and not a big deal soon.
RiftHunter4@reddit
FIFY
The car industry is currently in a bad spiral where increased safety is increasing vehicle weight and size, which then increases the need for more safety. The push towards heavier electrified vehicles hasn't helped either in that regard.
It's something the industry needs to address.
Spicywolff@reddit
Oh yeah, you lose a lot of driving dynamics when you have to wrestle a 4300 pound car. And you’re correct that you lose a lot of safety at that weight too.
An emergency maneuver it’s going to take a much more skilled driver to do a moose test. And a 4300 pound car versus 3500. It’s simple physics. Modern tires and suspension design can massage and smooth a lot of it out. But it’s still a lot of mass to handle.
animealt46@reddit
Moose tests are about stability control systems not driver skill.
Spicywolff@reddit
It’s an example of what a driver would encounter. During that encounter a lower weight car will be easier to manage vs a heavyweight. Less weight is easier to initiate the turn, it’s easier to transition back as well.
animealt46@reddit
No. Moose tests are not a test of underlying vehicle dynamics, those are 3rd order importance at best. That's why many sports sedans fail the test at lower speeds often since they oversteer spin due to lenient ESC. Controlling grip during the maneuver is the task of tire grip and ESC, vehicle weight itself has very little effect one way or other.
Spicywolff@reddit
We will not agree. Less agree to disagree. Bricks you’re ignoring basic physics and being pedantic. The moose dodge then, where a driver has to attempt to stay in control during an emergency dodge and back into the lane. A heavier vehicle will be harder to manner then a lighter one. A S class won’t do it as well as a corvette.
Captain_Alaska@reddit
It still has more to do with tires and ESC than anything else.
Just for context here the 2nd fastest car they've ever tested was sold in the US as the Nissan Rogue Sport.
roman_maverik@reddit
Meanwhile the new Civic Si is still a sub 3000 pound car, meaning that’s it’s still possible to make light performance sedans.
Everyone is acting like it’s impossible these days to make a light car; the reality is that most companies don’t actually want to try.
Even if we account for the extra weight of a larger engine, 3500 pounds should be on the high end of the sedan spectrum, not the other way around.
astrograph@reddit
reading about quick tire and brake wear just reminded me how since I’m poor I can only afford a civic which I can get 30-35k miles and even a lot longer for brakes 😌
ajrf92@reddit
I agree. After all, the focus on safety should be around avoiding accidents, rather than making them less harmful. Although this is a faux dilemma.
agray20938@reddit
Or they could also focus on making accidents less harmful to people not in the vehicle being tested. NHTSA ratings don't account at all for whether a given car might demolish anything it hits so long as the people inside are safe.
agray20938@reddit
Well yeah, vehicle safety (from the NTHSA's perspective, and most buyers) only looks at how safe the occupants of that car are in an accident.
Other than rollovers and very limited other exceptions, it completely ignores: (1) whether a car's design could lead to more accidents (or worsen accidents); (2) what happens to occupants of other vehicles involved; or (3) pedestrians, etc.
Which is why on paper a ~7000lb F-250 crew cab is just as safe as a 2300lb Fiat 500
Gyat_Rizzler69@reddit
When you are chasing higher efficiency requirements alot has to be done to gas engines to keep them efficient. Adding so much complexity and weight to make last gen propulsion tech efficient when going fully electric would weigh slightly less, have a better CG, less complexity and better power delivery. Also most consumers want a refined, safe and comfortable driving experience which requires more NVH and structural considerations which increases weight.
Spicywolff@reddit
I absolutely would understand cars getting heavier at the consumer level. But high-performance variance getting this fat and heavy is a hard pill to swallow. M3/5 consumer doesn’t care about MPG, the government does sure.
The m3 and m5 shouldn’t be this complicated and heavy. The new c63Se being heavier then S class is absurd.
Gyat_Rizzler69@reddit
I think the demographic and market for these cars have changed. Most people who own these expensive cars rarely will push them to even half of their capabilities so sheer performance at the expense of comfort isn't really an acceptable compromise to the product managers. Who has close to 80-100k to spend on a car and out of those people who is likely to beat on the car and drive it in a performance oriented way?
Since most of these performance variants share the same chassis and platform as the consumer variant, it's going to end up making the performance variants weigh more.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
But if someone is concerned with fuel efficiency, why don’t they buy an A5 instead of an S5/RS5. Audi’s lineup has always been
A-series: I want anything from an entry level Audi up to the top of the line luxury. Speed matters little and I’d like to get good mileage
S-series: I want a little more speed/handling than the average person but not at the expense of comfort
RS-series: give me heated seats and the shitty carbon fiber everywhere and the biggest engine you have
More weight/efficiency belongs in the A-series
Gyat_Rizzler69@reddit
That's what people probably should do but the market research that audi has done shows otherwise. They want to make sure they can sell their cars and that will come at the expense of not catering to the 10% of enthusiasts.
Spicywolff@reddit
While the demographic may have changed over the years. Putting more importance on straight line, acceleration and speed. Especially with the rising of EV powertrain.
The industry is losing its way when it comes to weight management. The C8 Corvette is 3800 pounds. Absurdly heavy for what’s touted as a pure sports car.
The problem I see with these really heavy performance cars is that the heavier your car is. The stiff for your suspension must be to handle the weight. Combine that with the modern trend of super low profile skinny tires. Rides get harsher and harsher and their fix is complicated air suspension set ups.
Look at the Miata. It’s so lightweight that even with max performance summer tires. Club spec and bilstien performance shocks. The handling is super supple and comfortable on bad roads. New c63Se is getting criticized for absolutely harsh ride. Which of course when you’re managing 4600+ pounds is gonna happen.
Gyat_Rizzler69@reddit
You can't compare a Miata to luxury German sedans. They are fundamentally different vehicles with different goals and audiences. There is a reason why many people keep a Miata as a weekend car and some other car as their daily. The refinement and quality you are paying for in a luxury German sports sedan is going to add weight.
The closest you are going to get to a "Miata" philosophy in a sports sedan is ironically a Tesla Plaid since it was designed to be as light as it can be since it has to have a heavy battery pack mounted low in the car and has a very barebones interior further reducing weight. Sports sedans are fundamentally a compromise and you aren't going to get Miata level handling in that package anymore. Maybe back in the 90s it was possible since those cars had weaker chassis and less fancy interiors and simpler engine tech but I think those days are gone.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
He’s not comparing a German luxury car to a Miata.
He’s using a Miata as a benchmark to show how weight affects ride quality
Spicywolff@reddit
I’m not using them as a direct comparison. It’s to show that when the car has less weight you can still put performance suspension on the car while having a soft and compliant ride. Lotus being a prime example
In a direct comparison would be a CLK, not a plaid. 2010 clk55 is 3300ish lbs while still riding comfortably but sporty. Its a luxury 2 door that’s middle weight but still has the luxury refinement
People keep the Miata as a weekend vehicle because it’s impractical due to being small and two door. You can only fit one passenger and very little luggage.
Particular_Flower111@reddit
It doesn’t matter what consumers want. All of these cars are built to the strictest emissions and efficiency standards. You cannot put in a high output gasoline engine alone that meets these regulations.
Modern engines pretty much have to be small-displacement for highway efficiency. Then, the only way to get meaningful power is to shove in high amounts of boost (most of these are running well over 20psi). Then you have a ton of lag and drive-ability issues (not to mention huge fuel consumption on-boost). You now need electric motors to torque-fill and smooth the boost surge. Now you need batteries to store energy for the electric motors and brake regen systems to replenish them.
This is the modern high-performance formula. The only way around it is a tiny NA engine (well under 3L) pushing a tiny car, like the miata. The days of NA engines >3.5L that are available around the world (not just the US) are effectively over.
Bau5_Sau5@reddit
S5 is not a driving dynamics car.
throwawayfinance123@reddit
Found the person that never owned one with the sports rear diff. I've had 2, they are incredible at cornering fast without losing traction.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
If you wanted a modern driving dynamics ‘Audi’, you’re buying an RS3, Golf GTI/R, or R8
An S5 is a family sedan with enough horsepower to satiate dad’s midlife crisis
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
That's an open diff, if you turn off traction control it will be undrivable. If it even lets you
SophistXIII@reddit
Nah, I agree with him. And yes, I have the sports diff.
It's too isolated to have good dynamics - the steering is extremely vague with virtually no feel.
It's a very, very good all weather commuter - fast, quiet, comfortable with an excellent, well thought out interior - it was exactly what I was looking for.
People seem to get really wound up about dynamics - but it honestly does not matter to most buyers. And if it does, Miatas, Porsches, ect. all exist.
Ghost1k25@reddit
Many cars with mediocre driving dynamics corner incredibly fast. TT-RS grips like crazy with the optional tires, but you can’t feel a thing through the steering wheel.
Bau5_Sau5@reddit
I never said anything about the differential , yes it may be a quality experience.
But again a S5 is not car designed for driving dynamics lol. It’s a heavy car filled with leather.
nolongerbanned99@reddit
Yes, I had many 3 series. My last one in 2019 was over 3700 lbs. then got a 22 wrx that weighs only 3300 and the imoact on handling and agility is noticeable. Also, like someone said, the tires dint ear on the edges like they do with a heavier car
Spicywolff@reddit
3300 is around the sweet middle weight spot. Our c5 is 3200 and handles amazingly. At autocross with stock alignment it doesn’t chew up sidewalls too bad.
My car even with a more aggressive alignment will chew up non track tires if you let it.
tyfe@reddit
3200 lbs is great, agreed. Def no bias here.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Can confirm
Also not biased at all…
Spicywolff@reddit
lol I may be a little bias. 3200 is fun and manageable but I still miss my ND at 2200. What I don’t miss is the i4, the v8 just fills the soul.
My car being 3900lbs makes me appreciate the middle weights.
PlatinumElement@reddit
I like my 2000lb AE86 where I’ve been using the same track tires for three years.
IAmJacksSphincter@reddit
Going between my STI and BRZ feels like I dropped off a carload of people.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
These hybrids are starting to make EVs look good by comparison
At the back of my mind there’s a tinfoil hat theory that thinks it may be by design
a-jasem@reddit
My Macan is ~4350 lb and it’s still a lot of fun to drive tbh
Spicywolff@reddit
Fun sure. But it won’t be 3,000 lbs cayman fun. Your macan will also eat a set of tires in a single track day.
a-jasem@reddit
Oh I definitely wasn’t comparing them haha. Both different driving experiences for sure. Just saying Porsche did a good job with the driving dynamics of a car the size/weight of the Macan
_galaga_@reddit
My 5,000 lb Cayenne handles much better than anything that big should and that's part of the fun. Porsche suspension engineering is the real deal. It doesn't mask the weight, it just controls it really well, so the overall effect is a ton of grip and stability and confidence at speed.
a-jasem@reddit
Yeah! I like to think of Cayennes has awesome family haulers that aren’t boring to drive haha. They’re awesome people/stuff haulers as long as you have the money.
parker2020@reddit
Who is tracking SUV’s
Spicywolff@reddit
You’d be surprised. Rich dudes that brag about owning a new X3M, they take it to a track day to say they did and how well it did. They don’t tell you it cooked the brake pads, and shredded a 1500$ set of tires.
parker2020@reddit
That’s the 1% bro
Spicywolff@reddit
Right I’m well aware. And that 1% tracks their SUVs. There’s no shortage of rich assholes that do stupid things.
gimpwiz@reddit
My friend is
parker2020@reddit
2 or 4 door?
gimpwiz@reddit
4-door, full-on family car, the madman.
popsicle_of_meat@reddit
I was gonna say, "The S in SUV means 'Sport', so it's a 2-door. Like the original SUVs". But the definiteion of SUV has changed a LOT in 20-30 years. 2-doors, 4x4 off road, and a truck ladder frame? SUV. 4-door Cadillac 2wd street queen? SUV. Squished and stretched economy car with a 1inch lift, 4 doors and no performance capability of any kind? SUV.
/old guy rant
Maximillien@reddit
"SUV" fundamentally doesn't make sense as a term at all, because a "sport vehicle" and a "utility vehicle" are diametric opposites.
clownpirate@reddit
I always understood it meaning a “utility vehicle” you use for “sports”. Like hauling sports gear.
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
Saw a few at pca, macans and cayennes
People will track anything, there's an scca national time trials pt cruiser
ajrf92@reddit
People on the Nordschleife, for example.
parker2020@reddit
Why do people bring up the top 1% in an argument
Spicywolff@reddit
To be fair you asked “who is tracking SUV’s” he gave you a factual answer. That 1% is the rich dudes who can track those and destroy consumables in 1 day. Then brag about it at the bar.
RealFakeDoctor@reddit
Idk but I wana be friends with them
Muted_Ad1556@reddit
2,500lb Corolla fun B)
Spicywolff@reddit
With some super 200 tires, you’ll be 3 wheeling around the cone course having a blast.
RoyShavRick@reddit
Yeah like if your car is heavy but mid engined (like a lot of these hybrid supercars coming out) you can still have amazing handling due to the physicality of the cars weight distribution. But if your car is heavy, but is front engined with the engine thrown out in front of the front axle, like these Audis, then you have to compensate elsewhere with computer wizardry to get it to go around bends.
And while that might be effective, the car just feels one note. As if your playing a video game. No texture or interesting body motions. It's why a Miata is so much fun. Because the car is moving and rolling and almost like you can feel each and every movement of it as you go through a bend. It becomes way more thrilling that way.
bikedork5000@reddit
This is part of why I find the Integra Type S so intriguing - under 3300lbs!
Spicywolff@reddit
For how comfy the car is, quite an accomplishment
ratrodder49@reddit
I’ve never driven a Miata for comparison, but my 2012 Chrysler 300S is 4600 lbs but handles quite well. I’ve thrown it into corners rated for 35 MPH at 65+ with no tire squeal, minimal body roll, and full confidence.
Urgranma@reddit
You definitely need to try driving a car built for handling sometime
ratrodder49@reddit
Would love to, just haven’t had the opportunity arise
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
Go to a track day and ask for a ridealong with an instructor and look for a car with aero
Don't eat lunch right before
Full-Penguin@reddit
Press X to Doubt
ratrodder49@reddit
It’s no Viper ACR Extreme, but I’m not lying when I say I’ve thrown it hard into curves in Oklahoma backroads with no loss of traction.
coherent-rambling@reddit
In discussions, "handling" is generally a matter of feel, while "grip" is numerical ability.
With good tires, I believe a 300S can corner at relatively high speed; magazine reviews from when they were released show around 0.85g lateral cornering force, which is probably on crappy low-rolling-resistance tires and is still better than a lot of crossovers can do. The relatively low center of gravity also helps that feel not completely terrifying.
But the handling still sucks ass. The steering is vague and has no real feel or feedback. Once traction is lost, it's not going to hold a mad drift and finish the corner in style, it's either going to understeer lamely or it's going to flop around and if traction/stability control doesn't step in it might spin.
ratrodder49@reddit
Thank you for the explanation of the difference instead of just downvoting. I did have pretty good tires on it at the time, General G-Max RSes, now running Toyo Proxes STIIIs. It’s a solid car, suspension is tighter than a standard 300 touring but not quite as fancy as an SRT, and I wish I had a good place to practice drifting it and really push its limits. I’m sure it’s truly garbage compared to say a Porsche or a ZL1 Vette but I’ve never run one of those to compare against.
nolongerbanned99@reddit
X
rfuree11@reddit
Not even in the same stratosphere.
econ_dude_@reddit
Lol I do that shit with my cx5 turbo, convince myself it handled it well, then get reminded at just how shitty it actually was when I'm in my mustang which has the work put in to make cornering excellent.
The 300 being able to corner just depends on where the point of reference is. I'd love to take those same corners you speak of.
ratrodder49@reddit
Back roads in Oklahoma between Stillwater and Woolaroc, it’s certainly no touge road but decently curvy and hilly.
My points of reference, well, you see them in my banner - second lightest car I own is a ‘71 C10 with farmtruck drivetrain under it and it’s wrapped out at 70 mph lol. I would love to get behind the wheel of a Vette or Miat someday to compare.
econ_dude_@reddit
So I'll say this. In the opposite direction as well. My truck was bad at cornering. Then, 2 weeks ago, I leveled the front end 2.5" and now it is really, really bad at cornering. To the point where I'd actually say it was good prior to raising the front end. Which, of course, is not true. It was always bad
Spicywolff@reddit
As someone who owned a Miata ND, has a c5 Vett and a heavy powerful sedan. If you think your car handles well then you should absolutely try an a Miata or a Corvette.
Even the 300 SRT8 I drove, felt pig heavy. Sure it can handle its weight well. but the moment you drive a true light or middleweight car it’ll open your eyes.
ratrodder49@reddit
I’d love to get behind the wheel of something light and sprightly one of these days, just haven’t had the opportunity arise.
Spicywolff@reddit
Turo has some fun cars on rent. I’ve seen a few Miata and corvettes. Give them a try. Even at Publix roadways safe speeds. You’ll feel the difference. Stopping distance and corners especially
Bourbon_Buckeye@reddit
you should drive a Miata for comparison...
StanknBeans@reddit
Hoped out my GS350 and into a 90s Honda Civic and it felt like hopping in a go kart because it was so much lighter.
Spicywolff@reddit
I sharpened my stick skills on a 90’s civic. Thing was slow but corners felt soo good. Stalled quite a few times back then. Miss my cousins civic.
fromthewindyplace@reddit
At that point, why not just make a body-on-frame yacht that’s at least comfortable? It already drives like dogshit once it’s that heavy, might as well go all the way. 2+ tons is never going to be a “sports” car.
bl0odredsandman@reddit
They did. It's called a Hellcat.
fromthewindyplace@reddit
bl0odredsandman@reddit
My bad. I just saw yacht and though of the heavy ass Hellcats.
Spicywolff@reddit
I wounder if that would be cheaper or more expensive vs unibody
fromthewindyplace@reddit
Probably somewhat more expensive initially, since you need to develop 2 separate “parts,” but once you have the frame, it’s a lot cheaper to keep developing new bodies for it. You just can’t make as radical of changes to the architecture from generation to generation without developing a whole new frame though.
rwbeckman@reddit
Only 4300? The new M5 TT V8 Hybrid is 5390, LOL. I guess that's a big sedan, not a coupe like this S5 so its more understandable.
bestselfnice@reddit
On the same platform, coupes typically weight more than sedans.
strongmanass@reddit
The reson it's understandable is because it's a V8 PHEV. Every single V8 PHEV on the market weighs over 5000 pounds.
agray20938@reddit
It's an explanation why it might be heavier generally, but I wouldn't say an M5 being 5400lbs is understandable solely because of that.
Either way, an SF90 is a v8 PHEV and is 3500lbs, but even looking among the PHEVs that are actually comparable it isn't hard to find ones that are 2-300 lbs lighter.
ajrf92@reddit
Correction: a Unibody/monocoque truck disguised as a sedan.
aprtur@reddit
New S5 is the old S4, FYI - the coupe is dead for 2025.
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
We care about it. The people actually buying this don't care it don't know.
Spicywolff@reddit
Agreed. We here are enthusiasts while the mass markets isn’t going to notice or care.
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
The sad part is that most of us enthusiast are 2nd or 3rd owners. So the manufacturers aren't even making money off of us. That's why they don't care about our opinion.
Spicywolff@reddit
It’s funny you say that because our house made an exact video on this. It was pertaining to the New 370 Z. And they made it super clear that the second and third owners are us. There’s only one car I’ve ever bought you and it was a really good deal when I worked at Chevy.
It was a diesel sedan that I bought for fuel efficiency . All our performance cars have been secondhand or certified Freon.
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
I saw that video I think. Lol. I bought a GTI new, but only because it was $5k off sticker in the good old days before the pandemic. But since then my cars have been used. I currently am 3rd owner of my fun car the OG Z4. 😂
Spicywolff@reddit
Ohh a z4 is a blast. I got to test drive one that was the i6 TT with a stick shift. Was a blast.
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
Mine is not that fast. But it's a fairly light 2.5 NA straight six. So fun and smooth as hell.
TenesmusSupreme@reddit
BMW M5: hold my beer
quiksi@reddit
I was gonna say… is it “heavy”, or BMW M5 heavy???
Spicywolff@reddit
“Hold my beer”? You mean hold my keg it seems
Darktrooper007@reddit
"Fluff my liederhosen"
SchemeShoddy4528@reddit
yeah water is wet but performance cars aren't typically 4500 pounds lol. this is surprising to people thats why it's being talked about. a subaru outback is 1000 pounds less
Spicywolff@reddit
E63S, bmw M5, corvette C8, Camaro ZL1. All heavier cars and the lightest starting at 3600lbs. They are performance cars, maybe not sports cars. But no one that’s educated will say these heavy boys aren’t performance cars.
memostothefuture@reddit
nope. it makes wet what it comes into contact with.
OmniStrife@reddit
That's why I chose to replace my 18 QV with a 23 QV. I test drove Merc & Audi and god were they dull to drive.
Spicywolff@reddit
I wish I could say it was just a Germans, but it’s happening to everyone. It’s fine for a luxury car but not luxury performance.
Honestly, I don’t see myself buying any new car realistically. If my wife’s Corvette gets totaled, then we’re getting a C7 Corvette. Or a sixGEN Camaro SS1LE. If my car gets wrecked, I might go back to Miata. Or Corvette again.
er-day@reddit
My diesel 3 row Land Rover weighs 4,900 lbs lol. Good to know I apparently own a sports car now.
Mainbaze@reddit
Starting to think it's just a side effect of more demanded safety features and more speed regulation :/
Lighter cars are so much more efficient and fun to drive
Astramael@reddit
You say this, but last time I said that I preferred to save weight by not having features I didn’t use, people jumped on me for being “ridiculous”.
Which is it, does this sub care about weight or not? Or only when it’s fashionable?
mungie3@reddit
4300lbs.
I don't think "absurd" is appropriate.
The M5 at 5400lbs is absurd
x3nhydr4lutr1sx@reddit
I never thought EV sedans would be lighter than ICE sedans.
And yet here we are. Who knew that one day, Model 3 would be the lighter car in its class.
LCHMD@reddit
Well the Model 3 interior also feels like a 20K dollar car.
DankeSeb5@reddit
Bro have you sat in a $20k msrp car? The Model 3 interior (esp 2024+) are levels better
LCHMD@reddit
Every VW Polo has a better interior than a Model 3.
asshatnowhere@reddit
it may have gotten better, but my boss has one of the first gen model 3s and the interior is appalling. The seats are some of the cheapest cloth seats I have sat on in a loooong time.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
I don’t think I’ve ever been in a Tesla with cloth seats. They make those?
pkthu@reddit
When did Tesla use cloth seats?
FordTaurusFPIS@reddit
Freaking hell my Toyota Yaris Cross GR for 22k is miles better than a Model 3. You can hear every single bump in a Model 3.
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
Every car that puts a speedometer in front of you and not just in a screen in the middle of the car is much better
mikolv2@reddit
In what way? Model 3 might feel better though it's subjective but it's of poorer quality and far less user-friendly. I'd take an interior of a $20k msrp Kia Forte any day over what's in the Model 3. Absolutely fuck changing gears on a touchscreen.
DankeSeb5@reddit
For sure true. UX is terrible. I took OP's comment as referring to material and quality. Test drove a few and they were super nice inside compared to a family members base Jetta (which is not a bad car). Soft touch materials everywhere, no creaking or anything. Surprisingly quiet inside too. Felt like a $40k car, which is about where it is iirc.
But I haven't spent much time in a pre 2024. I heard that this year was a big step up. and knowing Tesla, ymmv
Cap10Haddock@reddit
Subjective
SmashThompson@reddit
I've only been in a model 3 once (2024 model) and during the test drive the panel on the rear of the seat fell off. The plastics felt very cheap as well when you touched anything
pkthu@reddit
What has this to do with the weight discussion? And what's wrong with people having different preferences about the interiors? There are car enthusiasts, commuters, and then there are grannies who want things the old-fashioned way that's ultra-comfortable.
Many commuters would take a base Toyota Corolla or Model 3 over a BMW 7 series without adaptive cruise control any day.
jakeparotta@reddit
Think what he's trying to convey is that the Tesla cheaps out on materials which in its own brings down the weight.
But I do massively hate current Teslas so take my interpretation of another guy's comment with a pinch of salt
Martbern@reddit
I've never understood this one. If you compare the Model 3 and Y, the interior materials are equal quality to all competitors. I completely disagree with this hater take. This is especially true for the new Model 3.
Step into a Q4 E-Tron (which is much more expensive), an Ioniq 5/6, Kia EV6, BMW ix1, they all have nasty ass plastic the exact same places.
AmNoSuperSand52@reddit
Tbf some of the alternatives you mentioned offer plastic trim and leather seats, vs Teslas plastic foam trim and pleather seats…
So the trim is a wash but the seats are pretty noticeable
one_hyun@reddit
Probably a bot comment.
LCHMD@reddit
Do you even know what bots are?
LCHMD@reddit
A cheap and minimalistic interior weighs less, simple as that.
ThatBlueBull@reddit
Less expensive interiors typically use materials that don't weigh as much and/or simply use less material overall to keep costs down. Whereas an expensive interior is going to use lots of real leather, have more seat adjustability, have more buttons/switches/screens, double-paned/sound-insulated glass, more extensive use of sound deadening overall, heated/cooled seats, massaging seats, premium sound systems, and so on that increase weight. The weight difference can easily be hundreds of kilograms as a result.
I've only ever encountered this kind of opinion on the internet. Nobody that has driven/used my older 5-series has given it back and said they'd rather keep their because my 5 lacks ACC for their commute compared to their car.
pkthu@reddit
What's special about the weight in double paned glass & sound deadening or heated & cooled seats? They are included even on a base Model 3. If fancy massage seats is the difference in how much your preferred Euro cars weigh, well, good for you I guess.
Come to the Bay Area and take a look for yourself and see which cars are people actually driving. Most FANG engineers and VC people could easily afford an Audi S-series or BMW 7 without ACC. Weirdly enough, these cars are the classic definitions of being full of bells and whistles without substance. Nobody is buying them anymore. https://www.motor1.com/news/730818/mercedes-s-class-production-reduced/
megasaurass@reddit
Bot comment.
johnny_tifosi@reddit
Is anyone we disagree with on Reddit a bot now?
llamacohort@reddit
To be fair, it's a brain dead comment from someone who hasn't sat in many cars. Tesla has some issues and the fit and finish on delivery sucks. But I have owned a moderate variety of non-luxury vehicles and the Tesla has a nicer feeling interior than all of them.
Usually this comes from people who just hate the brand or dislike the strategy of having most controls located in the center screen.
So while they may not be a bot, it's functionally the same as an NPC that saw a trigger word and rambled off some useless dialog.
mynamasteph@reddit
The circlejerking of “I’d rather take a 20k kia forte with a way better interior” is insane
Top_Repair6670@reddit
No. Everyone we disagree with is a RUSSIAN bot now.
LCHMD@reddit
There are huge amounts of Russian bots here though.
Project2025IsOn@reddit
Have you considered that Elon bad tho
democracywon2024@reddit
The model 3 interior is way too fancy, so does that mean I want a 10k car?
Like I just want a cushy drivers leather seat and beyond that... Uhh knobs for the radio, tactile buttons for the climate control... And yeah don't care beyond that.
kraken_enrager@reddit
But when you have ICE AND EV components, it’s hardly a surprise imo.
strongmanass@reddit
They're not. They're lighter than PHEVs with big engines and large batteries.
Docist@reddit
Yea, everyone’s golden child the e39 M5 is 4000 lbs but no one ever complains about that one.
Stunt_Vist@reddit
Because the E39 platform is nearly perfect in almost all other aspects. The L6 sedans are nearly 300kg lighter though, bulletproof reliable, and extremely capable tuners to boot. FWIW the stock suspension is way more comfortable than modern BMW's too despite having minimal body roll and squat/dive. Plus the ergonomics aren't designed for someone with slenderman hands.
RamenWrestler@reddit
Haha I think the E39 has kinda died off in hype in the past few years. Haven't heard about it much. Around COVID era, it was super popular to talk about for some reason
Top_Repair6670@reddit
Well at least that is a 5 liter V8, so it is kinda forgivable.
Uniball38@reddit
Yes because old BMWs are best. Only the new ones are bad*
*this is always true and resets with each new generation :)
UndeadWaffle12@reddit
The BMW M5 is a weight class above the Audi S5. The direct comparison would be the BMW M3 Competition xDrive, which weighs 3990 lbs.
Project2025IsOn@reddit
That's the previous gen M5 weight on a car that is a class lower. 2 tones for a 3 series equivalent is absurd, like 800 pounds too much absurd.
Anandamide84@reddit
M5 competes more with the RS6 though.
skitso@reddit
Ya, what is that extra 1000 pounds?
The s5 and m5 are pretty close in size, aren’t they?
mungie3@reddit
V8 in front and 14.8kwh battery in back
C-C-X-V-I@reddit
And still a hair lighter than my Taurus lol
Santa_Hates_You@reddit
450lbs heavier than my S4.
Cars-and-Coffee@reddit
It’s also nearly 500 pounds heavier than my previous generation S5.
audi27tt@reddit
It’s sad to say but Audis are no longer built for handling and driving dynamics. They’re tech focused grand tourers that arent designed for even light track duty. Yes the RS3 might be the one exception.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
They never were, if we're honest.
audi27tt@reddit
I mean the R8 is an all time great. The early S4s were also pretty great if you could keep them mechanically functional. For a time they definitely challenged BMW in the sport sedan segment, but kind of gave up on that.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
I'm not sure I'd go that far with the R8, but in either case you can thank the fine folks in Bologna for that one.
The B5 is cool and I've always liked them, but driving dynamics weren't really their forte. Putting an engine way out ahead of the front axle isn't a recipe for success.
boomerbill69@reddit
You're not wrong about driving dynamics from a spirited driving standpoint. While I think the whole understeer complaints are generally overblown (you gotta be doing some stupid shit on the road to really feel it), they don't want to be pushed in the way old BMWs were.
However, old A4s just drove...nice. B5 through B8 all just had this nice weighty feel. Well weighted steering, best in class suspension, great build quality. My mom still drives an ancient, beat-to-hell B5 and I adore driving that car whenever I visit.
Surturiel@reddit
But...but..."EVs are heavy!"
(There are EVs about the same size as this thing that are lighter, BTW)
Perth_R34@reddit
All these new Euros vehicles are starting to look worse than Chinese vehicles. Or maybe the Chinese have started to look better.
tharussianphil@reddit
Same with Korean cars. The redesigned Kia Stinger looked better than the redesigned Audi A/S7
JebbeK@reddit
To me, absolutely not. But each on their own. I'd even rather have the 2021 A7 to my current C7 A7, even though I like the styling and design. Korean makers have copied the Germans for the past few years with a big hand, hence they look half-decent nowadays. Also because they don't have as dedicated of a buyer base, they can deviate from their previous designs by a lot without sacrificing previous owners.
Whatever most German designers are doing nowadays though, I don't understand..
tharussianphil@reddit
Personally, as a former B7 RS4 and B8 S5 owner, I think audi design peaked at about 2013-2015 and has only been downhill from there. They're so overstyled and imo almost all their redesigns made the cars worse like the TTRS, R8, S4, etc etc.
TwicesTrashBin@reddit
I'd say 2016 > 2015 (for North America). The C7 looks so dated compared to the C7.5 imo.
Totally not biased ;)
strongmanass@reddit
This is a better predictor of your age and when you first became interested in cars than anything to do with design.
tharussianphil@reddit
What's my age again?
Project2025IsOn@reddit
I became interested in cars in the 80s
OceanWaveSunset@reddit
This might be accurate. I love the 2000s audi sedan look.
2004 RS6 twin turbo V8 is peak audi in my mind
GrapeCloud@reddit
I have a similar car in mind. There's an unmolested E92 M3 in the parking lot of a gym I drive by when I go to work. I swear to god I give it a big Italian chef kiss every time I pass it. The owner always parks head-in so everyone can appreciate its rear end.
I think BMW started to lose the plot in 2018, with the exception of the F90.
Llew19@reddit
The OG R8 is peak design. Futuristic and fancy without anything approaching gaudy and no retro cues at all. And then all of the cars which then followed the same design language look great too, I'm not a fan of all the sharp angles on the current models.
UndeadWaffle12@reddit
Yeah that guy is out of his mind. Sure, the new A7 is a bit of a downgrade visually, but to say that the stinger looks better is absurd
Orunoc@reddit
Is copying really the right word? The people who are designing korean cars used to work for the germans. The designer for the kia stinger is the same guy who made the audi TT for example. I think they look decent because the designers have a lot of freedom and it helps that korean cars go through a refresh every few years instead of 5-6 years lol.
derritterauskanada@reddit
People keep saying this, the new Kia K4 to me looks as bad as the Pontiac Aztec.
Every time the Germans, particularly BMW comes up with a new design everyone laments it, to only talk fondly of it years later. I can recall how upset people were with the E90 generation 3 series, and now you hear praise of its design today.
DriverDenali@reddit
Wish the dealerships would get the same treatment, cause well Kia dealers are hell on earth.
yll33@reddit
have to disagree. the stinger looks decent, certainly the best looking car kia offers, but the a7 is the best looking sedan/hatchback on the market currently
GodlessCommie69@reddit
Also, (biased) but the 2nd Gen Veloster looked really good, as does the facelifted EN
tharussianphil@reddit
I agree. I'm sad they stopped making the Veloster before I could finally afford to spec a new car.
sidbmw1@reddit
There’s a new one? Didn’t they end production??
tharussianphil@reddit
I mean from whenever they did the face-lift halfway through the production run a few years ago. I think they ruined the A7 design.
sidbmw1@reddit
Ah ok. Old A7 is still so good looking
tharussianphil@reddit
For real.
YellowFogLights@reddit
They’re probably talking about the 2020 facelift
Project2025IsOn@reddit
The Chinese just copied German designs when they were still good.
yll33@reddit
the chinese designers are basically ripping off everyone else's designs. mclaren and porsche in particular.
they have good taste at least, but if you look at cars a lot, many of the chinese ones look like frankensteins monster amalgamations of existing european designs
leTrull@reddit
You'd think they're just chinese copies but then you learn that many of these brands, like BYD/NIO/Chery/Xpeng just employed european designers as their chief designers.
yll33@reddit
nah
https://car-images.bauersecure.com/wp-images/175881/su7_4.jpg
the su7 is a taycan with 720s headlights for example. not the same designers, the same designs. the vent behind the front fender, the hood slope and the slope to the trunk, etc.
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F41l083ks8tsc1.jpeg
kratos61@reddit
The SU7 only vaguely resembles a taycan from certain angles.
yll33@reddit
and the landwind x7 only vaguely resembles a range rover evoque?
a lifan 330 only vaguely resembles a mini cooper?
yeah ok
throwawayrepost02468@reddit
You're missing the point. It's literally the same designers who went to the Chinese brands.
yll33@reddit
and you're missing my point.
the same designers can still make new designs of the same style. however, many of the chinese designs are copy pastes of existing designs, not just similar styles
see the su7 pic in my other response. it's the same design, not just by the same designers.
strongmanass@reddit
Chris Bangle was the design consultant for the SU7. The design team also included former BMW designers who worked on the iX an iVision concept cars, and former Mercedes designers who worked on the EQXX. It's a distinctly European-trained design team. Taycan with 720s headlights. There are also elements of European concept cars. In other words, there are elements of several different European marques in the design. Shock of shocks, a European design team designed a generically European-looking car.
leTrull@reddit
I was actually thinking of the same car when you mentioned them copying porsche and mclaren. It's pretty damning. I guess what I wanted to say was that it's euro designers approving the copying.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Even new Chinese models look better, no one believes these models able to run near forever. Car buyers who buy Chinese just for cheap reason.
Perth_R34@reddit
Much the same as Euro cars then.
Chinese vehicles are selling well in Australia, and quality seems to be just as good.
kratos61@reddit
Chinese cars look great for the most part.
Vanzmelo@reddit
Mid 2010s euro cars peaked in terms of performance, looks, and technology. They’ve all taken such a nosedive recently becoming these edgy GTA looking, bloated, gimmicky messes
strongmanass@reddit
The top Chinese auto makers hired some of the top designers from European auto makers, so their cars have started to reflect that.
But apart from that, the new S5 just looks like an Audi. Audi created the theory of evolution, Darwin just put his name on it.
peaseabee@reddit
New cars suck for the most part. Tech and regulation overload. Used car market is where to find driver’s cars these days.
audi27tt@reddit
Porsche would disagree. Even BMW is still making some good cars. Supra is pretty cool. Lots of cool new American cars. Audi has just completely sold out to the CUV crowd
peaseabee@reddit
New m2 weighs 3800. I won’t talk about the new M5.
Sure, Porsche S/T would be awesome. I don’t have $500,000 and a buddy who works at the dealership though.
So used market it is
audi27tt@reddit
Lol ok. Base cayman 3100lbs $75k. Supra 3400 lbs under $60k. Elantra N 3200lbs for $34k. Not even mentioning Miata. Average used car costs something like $27k
ob_knoxious@reddit
I honestly think the first half of the 2020s may later be looked back on as a great age for daily performance cars and hot hatches. New WRX, GR Corolla, Elantra N, KIA Stinger, Golf GTI and R, Civic Si and Type R, new GR86 and BRZ, ND2 & ND3 Miata, Camaro & Mustang.
Every single car on that list still has a six-speed manual available. They range from sub 30 to mid 40s at a time where the average cost of a new car is pushing 50,000. Plenty of options in FWD, RWD, and AWD. Hatchbacks with great legroom, sedans, and 2 door coupes. Several of those cars are under 3000 lbs! And some of the heavier ones have well over 300 HP! You have to be an insane hater of modern cars to not want any of those options.
audi27tt@reddit
I couldn’t agree more we’re in a golden age for cars as we approach the end of the ICE.
The haters are just those who will never buy a new car. And by the way wouldn’t have bought a new e46 m3 back then anyway (or whatever their view of the “golden age” is).
I’m shopping for a track capable sports sedan, likely between a used M340i or F80 M3. But a new Elantra N is a legit contender. Would be a slightly more budget pick and I don’t love the looks but man it’s pretty compelling.
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
Nah get a grassroots motorsports magazine from 2000. Back then amateur competitive drivers were buying newish cars like that e46 m3, fd rx7, etc. Today they are still mostly driving early 2000s cars
audi27tt@reddit
People still race old Miatas and bmws because they’re cheap and simple to fix, and racing is extremely expensive. But plenty of people take brand new cars to the track
ubercruise@reddit
Seriously, as long as I can remember people have basically been saying cars were “better 10 years ago” and that they don’t need all the new bells and whistles and whatnot.
peaseabee@reddit
Miata always a good answer, for sure
exdigguser147@reddit
E92 M3 3750lb same exact size as G87 M2.
peaseabee@reddit
That’s why E46 M3 was the last of the bloodline.
Even so, at least the E92 had an n/a v8
BWFTW@reddit
New supra is so cool to me. Fairly light, a gem of a motor, modern interior, manual trans. Really a great package.
bikedork5000@reddit
And over 30mpg on the highway even with the 6 cylinder! I would happily get one with a manual.
_galaga_@reddit
I'm a lil' obsessed with the Z4 as a forever roadster because of those points.
audi27tt@reddit
Was so underrated when it came out too just because of the halo around the predecessor. Now I feel like it’s getting appreciated and will only continue to be more so.
Love that you own both a 997 cab and a 986
Quaiche@reddit
The problem about Porsches is that they’re absurdly expensive.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Porsche peaked a while ago. BMW definitely peaked a while ago.
audi27tt@reddit
If you think Porsche peaked before the GT4RS you’re either misinformed or delusional. People say this every new gen until they drive them.
BMW we can agree there.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
If your retort is a strut rear car with a hot motor and some aero bits, then we obviously have vastly different sets of priorities when it comes to cars.
peaseabee@reddit
964 RS and 997 4.0 may disagree w you, but I haven’t driven any of these unicorns
TheWolfofBinance@reddit
Yeah but then reviewers get in a Giulia and complain the whopping 8.8 inch screen is too small.
It's their damn fault.
peaseabee@reddit
Screens? Who wants screens?
They will quickly become obsolete, give me classic e46 interior
Solon_City_Schools@reddit
I just bought an ND3 Miata and it feels like the last chopper out of ‘nam.
_galaga_@reddit
Please tell me you cranked Fortunate Son driving it off the lot.
Imtherealwaffle@reddit
No they dont. I get that euro sports sedans have gotten fatter and less engaging but most new cars drive really great and are really nice to be in across the board.
Not to metion economy cars have really gotten more upscale. I was blown away by the current civic and mazda 3. Ended up with a mk8 gti which is not too bad at 3150 lbs.
timwang2006@reddit
If nothing else, the safety aspect of any new vehicle isn't to be understated especially if you have children for example.
My nephew is getting to the age where he is learning to drive and getting into cars. I would love to open his eyes and show him some variety, but there is no fucking way I am putting that kid in anything older than 5yrs and under 3000lb for a spirited drive (as a passenger of course, he can get behind the wheel with a couple years under his belt)
Frankly, I am getting to the age myself where enough people are dependent on me that I couldn't really justify a serious compromise in safety for the most pure drivers experience of something vintage.
Technology and regulation isn't just iPads on the dash and electrification of everything, its also seriously raised the bar for all metrics of safety and especially the passive safety of physical crash structures and metallurgy that get overlooked for the red herring of active braking and that sort of gimmicks.
Nefilim314@reddit
I really, really, really do not understand the purpose of the ICE German sport sedan segment.
Take away the manual for a smooth shifting dual clutch that is always in the proper gear for power delivery.
Add an immense amount of sound deadening to hide all that pesky noise, then reintroduce that noise with fake sounds piped in.
Make sure that the engine is absolutely as smooth and unnoticeable as possible. No peaky dramatic power trains here. Also, slap some turbos on that bad boy to kill any noise it might actually produce.
Oh shit, now it weighs over two tons? Better make it AWD as well. We need to throw on a very special suspension setup as well to mask all that weight high up.
Seriously, at this point just make it an EV and be done with it. I know it’s a hot take for this subreddit, but unless a car actually maximizes the perks of ICE with light weight, manually transmissions, and a great sounding engine then making it an EV gives you all the perks of low noise, lower COG, and linear power delivery.
I’m just sad that of all the manufacturers for luxury sedans, the only ones who get this memo are the Blackwing twins and the Integra Type S.
VisioningHail@reddit
That's the conclusion Jason came up with in the Model 3 vs M3 video. Just buy a Model 3 and an MX5 for the price of an M3
AgentScreech@reddit
And still have 20k left over
fullofshitandcum@reddit
That's the formula you needed the Germans for before EVs. Keeping them around is mostly a formality, and/or enjoying the engineering challenge of making a "flawless" ICE car
CoachZed@reddit
The S5 isn't built to be a sport sedan. It's built to be an enjoyable DD with enough power to be entertaining and enough luxury to keep your family or your clients comfy. That means power bands tuned for street use, no exhaust drone, and no jerky transmission.
Nefilim314@reddit
Right, which is exactly what an EV gives you out of the box. Did you read the comment?
Vhozite@reddit
I agree, but a lot of people (enthusiasts or otherwise) don’t like EVs or aren’t ready to make the leap. Otherwise I 100% agree.
kebabmybob@reddit
Mostly agreed but idk man a nice dual clutch tranny still lets you have fun with paddle shifters while being customizable in various driving modes. People gatekeep manual too much.
SubaruSympathizer@reddit
Isn't the German way to do it the best, regardless of how complex or undesirable the solution is?
natesully33@reddit
Not a hot take for me, these big heavy Euro ICE/PHEV sedans honestly do strike me as "worse BEVs". Other than being slightly more convenient on a road trip I don't get the point, it's not like they deliver a "pure ICE driving experience" at all. My guess is some combo of batteries costing too much and buyers being EV-averse keeps them how they are.
I feel like we are in this weird transition period were ICE cars in certain market segments are just going to get worse and worse until they become BEVs.
MentalMiilk@reddit
Agreed. I don't understand all of these "sporty" cars that keep the ICE around yet do everything in their power to insulate the driver from it. Seems like they're focused on marketing and performance numbers above all else.
Tw0Rails@reddit
Basically. Theres the counter jerk crowd on here that will cry 'boomer' if anyone goes on about feel or experience being lost or non existent for new cars.
CommanderArcher@reddit
Remember all of the outrage over how much EVs weigh?
Pepperridge farms remembers.
mini4x@reddit
More or less than the new 3 ton M5 ??
mr_lab_rat@reddit
All new cars are heavy.
Dry-Revenue2470@reddit
What a shame, sorry Audi but we are breaking up…..
Makeitquick666@reddit
not just people, but cars are getting obesed as well
AwesomeAsian@reddit
I want small cars back. Bring back the Chevy Spark and the Honda Fit. I want kei trucks to be the norm. Ridiculous that even with global warming cars are getting bigger and heavier.
noirbourboncoffee@reddit
To loosely quote Eddie Jordan in this context "look, sound and drive like tractors".
Desutor@reddit
Honestly. 2 Tons is not that much nowadays. Most cars are heavier
cw08@reddit
Yeah it still weighs 1000 pounds less than an M5 lol
runsanditspaidfor@reddit
A guy told me a few years ago that all the cars he would ever really want had already been built and it seems like he was onto something.
Gonnaragretthis@reddit
The tough part about the fact that they’ve already been built, is that they’ve already been driven and have already started to wear and tear.
Proper maintenance goes a long way, but limited markets for repair parts, high labor costs for repairs, and the uncertainty of how previous owners treated the car makes it’s hard to jump on sometime from the used market without having some hesitation.
coffeeshopslut@reddit
Plus NLA parts are a killer
I want to experience an old BMW, but I know e36 interiors dissolve and there's stuff you can't get new
Vhozite@reddit
NLA?
coffeeshopslut@reddit
"no longer available"
o0260o@reddit
I used to go to the autoshow every year. Dunno if it's getting old or what but I just don't care about supercars and electric trucks.
Vhozite@reddit
Auto shows have been on the decline for years. We used to go every year when I was a kid. Then every single year without fail there was less overall cars, less interesting displays, less souvenirs, more pedestrian cars gated off. A few times I went they didn’t even have the latest model year of a vehicle.
Eventually we just stopped going.
pereira333@reddit
As an VAG guy there is no Audi or Porsche I want after 2019 models. Everything touch screen, so much weight added, bigger fatter cars… B5 a4 or s4 yes, B7 RS4 yes, Porsche 993, 997 yes, C7 RS6 yes, 8V RS3, Mk 4 R32…
runsanditspaidfor@reddit
I’d still take a new 911T with the stick I think that’s probably a fantastic car, but certainly the stuff I’m interested in has mostly gone away.
yashdes@reddit
I'd take a 997 gt3 or turbo 6 speed over any 911 made since then
_galaga_@reddit
The 718 still has Porsche's old button-y interior if that's your vibe.
dirtymonkey@reddit
Your list confuses me. If you're talking about driving dynamics I find it weird you'd stop at the 8V RS3.
Since we're talking about weight, they 8Y also isn't any heavier, and technically a little lighter.
We can even talk about your touch screen issue, and the 8Y everything has buttons, and a single screen.
Dark_Knight2000@reddit
The only new cars I want are the Corolla GR (and that’s now on the rocks because of the recent reliability issues) and BMW M3 manual. Those cars will go away by the decade’s end and then I don’t see wanting anything.
yashdes@reddit
They stopped making ones for me in like 2015. Someone will have to take hydraulic steering from my cold dead hands
DustyBusterson@reddit
That’ll be true the day they completely stop making ICE cars.
OneDownFourToGo@reddit
I think it’s already happened. I’m 29 and there isn’t a car for sale new that I realistically want to afford.
Vhozite@reddit
I’m also 29 and I know what you mean. There are cars I like but nothing that drives me to work harder so I can own it. Nothing that gives me that “I need to own one of these eventually” types of cars.
Audi TT - Dead
Dodge Charger V8 AWD - Dead
Honda S2000 - Dead
Ford Mustang - I like 13 year old one more than the S650. GT350 - Dead
Pontiac Fiero - Dead
And on and on.
doktormane@reddit
At least Ford confirmed that they have no plans to cease production of the V8 Mustang for the foreseeable future.... . As long as carbon neutral petrol becomes cheap enough, the IC engine will continue to exist, just like mechanical watches. As long as there is demand, there will be supply. I think you can build a complete 1967 Mustang from scratch using new parts including a complete body shell.
Vhozite@reddit
Yeah Ford is my favorite company. I do like the Mustang, Maverick, and Raptor trucks.
Top_Repair6670@reddit
You own an NSX and a McLaren, I really don’t think you have any thing to complain about and there will continue to be a market for expensive super cars in the future…
OneDownFourToGo@reddit
I wasn’t complaining. I’m happy with the cars I own, but that doesn’t change the fact that there’s nothing new for sale that i want.
DustyBusterson@reddit
I know what you mean, all the new cars I actually want are now $100k+.
XCCO@reddit
I daydream about owning a CT5-V BW, and if I really hated my savings, I could buy a CT4-V BW. Those two excite me.
BWFTW@reddit
I totally agree with this. The cars I really want to get in my life are mostly around 15 years old at this point with some exceptions. Stuff like a manual Ferrari 360 and 458, manual gallardo, manual R8, manual GT3, manual GT4, manual spyder, a second rx7 fd, a manual swapped Ferrari 612, manual 996 and 997 turbo. That's concievably already more cars then I can even drive and enjoy in one life time. As much as I think new cars are fun and cool, they really aren't for dream cars anymore. Though I really like modern cars for daily driving haha. Up till last year the average age of cars I owned was 25 years old and it wasn't just because I'm cheap.
Foxtreal@reddit
ugh
mynamasteph@reddit
The circlejerking of "I'd rather take a 20k kia forte with a way better interior" is insane
HandyMan131@reddit
I heard the heavy weights of euro cars is due to a new rule in Europe about how they have to report the weights (I.e. with fluids or something). Anyone know if there is any truth to that?
Juicyjackson@reddit
The article is very confusing.
They say the S5 is hatchback only in europe? But then go onto say the S5 wagon is heavier? And on the BMW German website there is an Audi S5 Sedan available?
Also the new S5 sportback in the US is basically the same weight as the previous gen S5 sportback?
I dont really get the article...
CUvinny@reddit
The US S5 should be lighter too as I don't think we are getting the mild hybrid EU gets.
rugbyfiend@reddit
A lot of motor 1 articles read very poorly, almost AI generated.
dioptase-@reddit
sorry no one read the article, probably even its author, we are just here to bitch because of the title
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
BBW artists are gonna start drawing carsonas at this rate, with all the fat, rich, pretty European cars we've been seeing lately.
noodlecrap@reddit
if it’s over 1600kg it’s not a sports car period. the lotus elise was like 700kg
gezyy1008@reddit
mercedes c63 amg: 4817 lbs bmw m3 xdrive: 3990 lbs audi s5: 4299 lbs (rs5 probably will be even heavier) tesla model 3 performance: 4045 lbs damn i never thought the tesla will almost be the lightest car in it’s category. fuck eu regs i hate that their goal is to make cars greener but they just end up with the opposite result
U3011@reddit
We had considered Audi vehicles when we were in the market but by the time we looked the Audi I remembered had been long gone. Heavy, stagnant design and touch screens. BMW isn't any better but at least I can feel a little excited to drive our vehicles. Most modern cars aren't exciting to me anymore. A symptom of getting old and beginning to salt and pepper is my back which wasn't great to begin with has trouble with very firm suspensions. Vehicles that are will often be way out of our price range.
ToneThugsNHarmony@reddit
So no more S4? And what does this sentence mean, conveniently placed under a photo of an S5 wagon, “The new S5 isn’t sold as a sedan anymore since it’s hatchback-only now.” The s5 was already a hatchback…
Imtherealwaffle@reddit
S4 and S5 get merged into the s5 model name. The a4 model name is gonna be reserved for a new electric car.
Now there's just 2 body types, the s5 sedan which is a 4 door liftback just like the old s5 (but with framed windows and a more sedan like shape). This replaces the s4 sedan and s5 sportback. And the other body type is the s5 avant which replaces the s4 avant.
DodgerBlueRobert1@reddit
The new S5 still has a coupe-like profile, not being too different from the current S5 Sportback's profile. It may have a slightly less aggressive sloped roofline, but it's not as upright as the A4's roofline.
TheTense@reddit
The 2015 Genesis 5.0 was 4600 lbs. it feels like a true autobahn cruiser, weight was not a factor in that car…
PugetFlyGuy@reddit
It's a crossover at this point
nerdpox@reddit
There was a claim from someone in the journalism world that the new European car weights were inclusive of a bunch of extra weight to make the figures realistic and that it added about 200 lbs to all car weights. like 2 passengers and some luggage? I'd have to dig on it
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Curb weight is curb weight. It includes all fluids and a full tank of gas. The few remaining car magazines weigh their test cars, using the same methodology.
Olorin_TheMaia@reddit
My god that's the weight of my 2008 Tundra.
ajrf92@reddit
Almost all the sportive variants of German (and not only German) sedans are abnormally heavy. idk if this is due to the hybridization or who know. And even with these circumstances people will still buy them.
mgobla@reddit
Get an Alfa Romeo Giulia before production ends, 3500 lbs.
Th3WeirdingWay@reddit
That’s every Audi since forever……..
mgobla@reddit
EU regulations: The HEAVIER the cars, the LESS the manufacturer has to pay to EU. No joke, that's a law.
ronnysteal@reddit
'Cause it's a mild hybrid. The battery as well as the small electric motor in the gearbox adds some weight
Imtherealwaffle@reddit
They also made the car a half size bigger now so its actually between the a6 and a4 which explains some of the weight gain. The extra rear seat and trunk space is supposed to be a selling pijt for the new gen.
niftyjack@reddit
The last gen A4 was a super mild hybrid as well
Shomegrown@reddit
S4/S5 wasn't a 48v system like this. It's part of the weight delta.
formerbur@reddit
Bad news for people carrying the cars on their backs. Please keep publishing these baits for every single hybrid performance car.
solo118@reddit
Why does 4300 pounds seem not so bad these days.
Our problem is that they just throw horsepower to counter the weight, but in reality a "fun" car is tossable due to it being light... those days are gone
Exotic_Pollution8346@reddit
I knew if I waited long enough my m2 would be considered lightweight at 3600 lbs lol
Darksolux@reddit
I thought my Focus ST was too heavy at 3200 lbs.. Damn. I'm never going to find something to replace this. My Accent was 2400 lbs! WTH!
desirox@reddit
This is the norm now not the exception. Get ready to reset weight expectations as hybrids and EVs become more common
spas2k@reddit
Imma buy a Miata before all the "sporty" cars are 5000+ pounds.
parker2020@reddit
Crown Vic is 4,100 pounds… I HATE THIS ARGUMENT
VisioningHail@reddit
Crown Vic isn't a sports saloon
the_house_from_up@reddit
I'm pretty sure that they were under 4,000 pounds, which only reinforces your point.
Noobasdfjkl@reddit
Why are all these motor1 articles getting posted all of the sudden?
Drzhivago138@reddit
Searching the last 7 days brings up 6 articles from the site.
kebabmybob@reddit
I love my Golf R but man even that thing weighs like 3400 lbs. Cars are so heavy now.
froiwok@reddit
Dam I thought my Z was heavy with 3300lbs
mercasio391@reddit
Have you seen the new M5?
JohnQPublic90@reddit
What’s making it so heavy if there’s not even a hybrid system? Just more other tech stuff?
Preditor_Hunter@reddit
What the fuck is this horrible website, you can either accept tracking cookies, subscribe to their website for €3.99 a month, or send them an email to opt out of tracking cookies?
nickyd62@reddit
Crazy considering the all electric Tesla Model 3 LR AWD is considerably lighter at 4,030 lbs (1828 kg)!!
Gyat_Rizzler69@reddit
bUt eVS aRE sO hEaVy
parker2020@reddit
They hate you because you’re right… I keep making a point to say the crown Vic was 4,100 pounds. A Prius is 3200 pounds and a caymen is 3000 pounds. A Tesla model 3 is 4000 pounds and so is the S5. People make claims they see on the internet and just parrot them
Gyat_Rizzler69@reddit
Weight isn't really that big of an issue for most people. 90% of people never push their car hard enough for weight to be a factor. What does matter though is Center of Gravity and that is felt by most people since it directly affects the stability of the car. I would much rather have a 4000lb EV over a 4000lb gas car because of the lower CG. Also most people in here are comparing a 3200lb 200hp civic with 4000lb 500hp electric vehicles which is not a fair comparison. When you compare equal class and power vehicles with each other, there really isn't much of a weight penalty with going EV. For example an m340i weighs ~4000lbs while a model 3 dual motor also weighs ~4000lbs.
parker2020@reddit
Yup nothing to add. Just the reddit hive mind.
whalesalad@reddit
They've always been bloated heavy contraptions. Back before picking up a Mustang GT in 2016 I was test driving a few B8.5 S5's and it felt like an absolute dog. Like a european Buick Le Sabre.
the_house_from_up@reddit
It's an inevitability. Governments want more regulation, consumers want more features, they want to be insulated from the world around them, manufacturers know they have to keep the price reasonable to sell them.
As a result, you get incredibly refined vehicles that have all the tech, tons of power, tons of safety, relatively good economy, and all the comfort. The issue is that it has to be built to a price point, so the compromise is weight.
The weight gain shouldn't surprise anyone.
Stren509@reddit
Im pretty sure a lot of this new weight problem is an EU reg on how its reported. Some German manufacturers are reporting weight with a driver (165lbs) and luggage. PHEV is a big factor too but I think its not as extreme as it seems
Shomegrown@reddit
Meh, won't hurt the key mission of this car. I didn't get an S5 for 10/10 driving dynamics. That's foolish. It's fun to drive at sane speeds (for public roads) during my commute.
verbol@reddit
Recent Audi S and RS products are confusing, the solution being inline 5 turbos and V8’s. A V6 has no magic in a VAG product.
Atrampoline@reddit
Man, that front end is ~ugly~.
-AbeFroman@reddit
You have to wonder if there will ever be a breaking point with this—the ever-increasing demand for efficiency that is continuously counteracted by the ever-increasing bulk of modern equipment.
OpenJelly1437@reddit
My fully electric Tesla Model Y SUV weighs less than this Audi :))
tofulo@reddit
Audi and bmws are fat, nothing new
TheVengeful148320@reddit
Idk why they're singling out Audi.
Modern cars are absurdly heavy.
There fixed the headline.
Firearms_N_Freedom@reddit
That's a good looking hatch though
n00bmax@reddit
Feeling light in my non hybrid X3 M40i “SUV”. These are heavy but shouldn’t have SUV body roll with low COG
Lorenzo_Blow@reddit
Ha! It weighs within 200 lbs of my 2006 Tundra
PurpleSausage77@reddit
Wow, I remember back in 2010 thinking how heavy the 3836lb Nissan GTR was. Now that is probably considered light weight.
The BMW M2 is 3700lbs. Absolutely unreal.
My ATS with AWD/321hp V6 weighs the same as a mk7/mk8 Golf R at 3500lbs, probably the lightest of its kind, all the other comparables push much closer or even over 4k. GM with the Alpha chassis 6th gen Camaro, ATS, and stuff like the C6 Corvette only weighing 3100-3200lbs in basic trim form is awesome.
I’m very conscious about my vehicles weight. My 07 Civic Si is down to 2720lbs. My roommates GR86 is at 2870lbs.
Flamethrower753@reddit
Ford Fusion is BACK
King_in_a_castle_84@reddit
Lol at this point I'm not sure HOW they're making non-EV cars so heavy, some cars are already almost as heavy as my V8 F-150 supercab.
JimPalamo@reddit
And looks like a Genesis
cflex@reddit
Bring that fat wagon to the states and I'll still want one
kiddingaround50@reddit
Handles great
natesully33@reddit
Well, yeah, there is no incentive for a carmaker to lighten a car - most buyers don't care. Objectively the heavy cars do what they need to do for their buyers just fine too, albeit with more frequent tire and (on non-EVs) brake pad replacements. Some sports cars are an exception and are sold on lightness, of course, but this S5 is not one of them.
Sinaistired99@reddit
It's 155 to 190 kg heavier than the old S4. But isn't it a bit bigger?
jobear6969@reddit
Ya, it pretty much splits the difference between the A4 and A6 and got a lot more trunk space. The weight increase completely makes sense to me.