Ukraine Fires UK Storm Shadow Missiles at Targets Inside Russia for First Time
Posted by s1n0d3utscht3k@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 207 comments
VintageGriffin@reddit
Watch the same mainstream media unable to piece together cause and effect when it reports the collapse of Ukrainian power grid within the next few days. It'll be all about the same old unprovoked Russian aggression again.
TrumpsGrazedEar@reddit
Russua in 1994 with Budapest momerandum confirmed Ukraine sovereignty of 1991 borders (including Crimea) and commited to defend Ukraine from agression within 1991 borders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
Russia claimed Ukraine bomb Donbass for no reason while shooting from residential areas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdFAwJe53os
https://youtu.be/vqvA49lWJuI?si=X7X_33lydJcj2opp
please point out extensive damage from 8 years of shelling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxVIT-5CfHk
while being led by people who act like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yoOrZSHZyY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4dJ1Xu4Dhc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQmTaOxtSCM
All the while 70% of Ukrainians wanted to stay in Ukraine:
https://web.archive.org/web/20140509001422/http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2014/05/Pew-Global-Attitudes-Ukraine-Russia-Report-FINAL-May-8-2014.pdf
VintageGriffin@reddit
Funny you should mention the Budapest memorandum, a document founded on the core principle that Ukraine remains a neutral state. Once the whole NATO ambitions got involved the memorandum was no longer valid.
Or do you really think Russia should "defend Ukraine" when it is trying to join a military block hostile to it?
Corvid187@reddit
Ukraine didn't join NATO, and it didn't join the EU. It remained a neural state until Russia's invasion.
Russia should respect the sovereignty of its neighbours and the agreements it signed in international law.
Even if they had, countries are free to join whatever organisations and structures they wish and are willing to have them. Countries don't have a right to invade you just because you did something they didn't like. Not everything can go your own way all the time in international relations, and you don't get to throw your toys out the pram when they don't.
robotoredux696969@reddit
You are playing word games with the word "neutral". Ukraine never technically became a NATO member state but the United States and NATO never intended to keep Ukraine neutral. In 2008 at the Bucharest summit it was announced that Ukraine would become a NATO member state. It was the intent expressed by the West to bring Ukraine into NATO that was the chief provocation in this conflict.
Imagine if China, Russia and Mexico created a "defensive" military alliance and lined up "defensive" missiles along the Mexico/US border. The US would have gone ape shit before that would ever have happened.
Corvid187@reddit
Ok, and now finland and Sweden as a direct result of this conflict have joined NATO, making it already monumentally self-defeating if the aim really was to avoid NATO-members bordering Russia.
Just because your neighbours do things you don't like doesn't give you the right to invade them. The US probably would be pissed if Mexico joined a defensive military alliance with Russia, but that wouldn't give them the right to invade.
I mean, this is almost exactly what happened with Cuba, and it's still sitting there 50 years later, blockaded and sanctioned, sure, but not invaded.
And the reality is living near states who are hostile to you is just a fact of life for most of the world. Western Europe has to live literally right next to the Warsaw pact for close to half a century. This shit happens, suck it up.
robotoredux696969@reddit
Cuba uninvaded? Have you heard of the Bay of Pigs?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Lol. US were literally going to start the nuclear war over Cuba in 1962.
Corvid187@reddit
But they didn't
Ginjutsu@reddit
Ah, yes, because the threat of a US invasion is surely something that your average Mexican citizen would worry about.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
You are putting a cart before the horse. There were no major issues between Russia and Ukraine before the Bucharest summit in 2008 and Maidan in 2014.
alexkidhm@reddit
And why are you deflecting? Would it be ok if something like what he described happened?
VintageGriffin@reddit
Do you not understand what the word "ambition" means?
On 7 February 2019, the Verkhovna Rada voted 334 to 17 to amend the constitution to state Ukraine's strategic objectives as joining the European Union and NATO.Corvid187@reddit
Right... 5 years after Russia invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine, breaking the Budapest memorandum.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
6 (or 14) years before Russia invaded Ukraine
"NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. MAP is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia."
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
Even after Euromaidan and the invasion of Crimea Ukrainians weren't interested in NATO membership. It was only after monke sent in his troops in 2022 that they started to think it was a good idea
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Exactly. Ukrainians en masse were not interested but a small and active minority certainly was. The one that launched Maidian in 2014 and sent Ukraine into a freefall.
VintageGriffin@reddit
Literally this.
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
Planning for future strategic objectives is a good idea to do but at the time the Ukrainian public weren't particularly interested. Also what's the fucking problem with Ukraine being in NATO (before you mention expansion, shut up and think about it for a second)? Russia has, as it repeatedly reminds us, a fucking massive nuclear arsenal. It doesn't need a buffer state
VintageGriffin@reddit
The Ukrainian public isn't particularly interested in dying in the current war either, but nobody ever asks or cares what they want; the borders are closed to the entirety of the male population and people are dragged off the streets regardless.
The issue with Ukraine in NATO has repeatedly being explained ad nauseam. It's too close to Russia. When the missiles start flying there is no time to identify whether they're nuclear tipped or not, so any military planner worth their salt is going to assume the worst and launch a counter barrage with full force. It's the issue of the first strike: use them or lose them.
One would think people wouldn't be cheering for an escalation that leads to that kind of scenario. And guess what? ATACMS have nuclear tipped warhead variations.
o0ven0o@reddit
Ukraine was constitutionally neutral, until December 2014 (after the occupation and invasion of Crimea and Donbas).
VintageGriffin@reddit
Right, that Maidan event, where the democratically elected government was overthrown and replaced with Western puppets. Of course it's no longer going to remain constitutionally neutral, that was the whole point.
o0ven0o@reddit
The russian puppet was aligning closer to his russian masters. People didn't want that. They were protesting for European alignment, not a NATO or any other military alignment.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Yanukovich was democratically elected president recognized as such internationally, wasn't he?
o0ven0o@reddit
And then people changed their mind.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Like all people? The majority? Or small vocal minority endorsed by the US department?
VintageGriffin@reddit
That russian puppet wanted to maintain neutrality and sit on two chairs at once reaping the benefits from both sides, pretty much like what Erdogan and Orban are doing. That wasn't in the western plans, so they killed a couple dozen civilians and overthrew the government. They also brought cookies.
And yeah and it just so happened, purely by chance, that NATO was also bundled into this whole ambitions thing, which became the turning point for further escalations.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
You don't have to bring Erdogan or Orban - many of the FSU leaders/regimes do the same. Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan. Even Georgia got itself from repeating the fate of Ukraine.
o0ven0o@reddit
Wow, fitting a lot of conspiracies theories into one comment. Shows how detached you are from any Ukrainian realities.
VintageGriffin@reddit
A different opinion is not a conspiracy, even if you don't happen to like it.
I'm more attached to this issue than I wish I have been, since it affects me directly. And I'm not intellectually dishonest with myself enough to directly believe whatever is on the news.
I'm not looking to convince you of anything. This discussion is mostly for the benefit of other people that might read it, and to make this place look a bit less like an echo chamber.
GallorKaal@reddit
You sound like you hit women for fun
jason_abacabb@reddit
Yeah, so rude for Ukraine to violate Russian sovereignty like that. You have a real victom blaming additude.
So what was the reason for all the bombing of civilian infrastructure in the winter of 22 and 23?
VintageGriffin@reddit
I'm not having any kind of attitude, just having fun at all of the hypocrisy on display.
Funny you should mention the past two winters, that Ukraine made through relatively unscathed and with most of their electricity and heat producing capacity intact. Taking both away was always an option for Russia, and now they're probably going to use it as a response.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
While conspicuously failing to look in the mirror.
VintageGriffin@reddit
This place used to be better.
People were actually discussing the topic and the arguments that other people brought up, and not those people themselves.
If you don't have a counter argument just try to insult the poster instead. Always works.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
You come out with rank, suppurating hypocrisy yourself and then criticise others for not engaging with the argument?
FFS.
bandaidsplus@reddit
Obvious lie is Obvious. Neeeext
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/russian-attacks-on-energy-infrastructure-leaves-ukraine-in-dark-as-winter-approaches
VintageGriffin@reddit
I said relatively unscathed. You don't appear to know the meaning of the word. Just wait and see how much worse it really could have been for Ukraine right from the very start, as it's about to be this winter.
jason_abacabb@reddit
40% of energy infrastructure destroyed in a winter is "relatively unscathed "? You should really reevaluate your perspective.
And these strikes don't change that, this is just another lever Putin can pull to force capulation.
VintageGriffin@reddit
Ukraine was the industrial heart of the Soviet Union. Its power stations and energy infrastructure was massively overbuilt to support an incredible amount of industrial output. More than half of that output has been squandered since the Ukraine gained independence, which left it with a very high energy production margin that they have been selling to neighboring countries all of that time. Even with 60% of that destroyed or otherwise lost they were still producing far more than they have been consuming.
And the only reason they have been able to maintain fairly stable power distribution thus far is because of the massive redundancy and capacity built into the legacy Soviet distribution system. All the redundant links and hardware they've been switching around until now.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Russia is simply following the NATO playbook.
jason_abacabb@reddit
When was the last time a NATO country was involved in a land grab and cultural genocide (russification in this case)?
rowida_00@reddit
Since the thread was focused on bombing power grid, it’s worth noting that has been a policy aggressively prized by the west and even defended by their officials.
It was the US that said NATO’s bombing of Yugoslavia’s electrical grid was a legitimate!
Also, let’s not forget what the Allies forces did to Iraq’s electrical grid during operation desert storm.
jason_abacabb@reddit
Yes, clearly it can be a legitimate military target, but military action should be taken in context.
I won't speak to the balken wars because i only have a shallow history book level understanding of it but the 91 Iraq campaign was an action to remove an invading force that was in the process of a land grab that was staged on very flimsy cassus belli. If Iraq stayed on its side of the border then nothing would happen. This is contrasted with the current Rus-Ukr situation where the agressor is persecuting a campaign against power and heating infrastructure, and timing it specifically to impact civilians in winter.
rowida_00@reddit
It was legitimate to decimate Iraq’s power grid, reducing it to generating less than 4% of their generation capacity? What next, you’ll echo Madeline Albright’s assertion that the sanctions claiming the lives of 500,000 Iraqi children was worth it?
jadsf5@reddit
Look mate, you're not understanding.
We can do those things because we are from glorious democratic countries and Russia can't because they're the bad guy, when Ukraine attacks their energy and oil infrastructure we'll say it's legitimate, even though we'll say it's illegal when Russia does it.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
NATO prefers to bomb into submission instead of the good old fashioned land grab.
Speaking of cultural genocide, Ukrainian language is not forbidden in Crimea or Russia. Russian language is forbidden in Ukraine. Go figure.
usesidedoor@reddit
Goes on to show how well informed you are about the region.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Literally posted three different links.
usesidedoor@reddit
Literally you wrote something which was terribly uniformed, and when you got some push back, you linked to some news about a temporary ban in Kyiv regarding art and culture.
Anyone who knows the tiniest bit about the region is aware that the status of the Russian language in Ukraine has been a controversial issue for a long time. Some policies adopted by the Ukrainian State have been heavily criticized.
That does not mean that Russian is forbidden, which is ludicrous.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
The status of the Russian language has been controversial since the predominantly Western-Ukraine minority put the country in a geopolitical freefall as a result of Maidan 2014.
A storyline from the early 2022: https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine
usesidedoor@reddit
Doing your research now? How cute. At least you learn something today!
o0ven0o@reddit
Russian is still spoken everyday in Ukraine. russia persecutes Crimean Tatars in Crimea, and Ukrainian speakers are not safe.
russia should be bombed into fucking off.
Reasonable-Ad4770@reddit
No language patrols?:)
o0ven0o@reddit
Language patrols??
Reasonable-Ad4770@reddit
Yeah, language patrols who "promotes use of ukranian language to passerbys and call police in case of aggression"
o0ven0o@reddit
Never seen or heard of this. If it happens, it’s rare and extremist.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Did you join the AFU?
o0ven0o@reddit
If it comes to it, but I'm except as an academic. Friends and family are fighting and will continue to fight.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
What do you mean "if it comes to it"? Isn't Ukraine in an existential war or something? Have you heard Zelensky and Sullivan recently? Ukraine is in urgent need of men. And you are here, on Reddit.
whosadooza@reddit
No, it's not. What is there to figure?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
https://www.dw.com/en/kyiv-imposes-ban-on-russian-language-culture/a-66301913
whosadooza@reddit
Cool story, but do you have anything relevant to the claim?
Russian is not banned in Ukraine. That is a lie.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
How about this? January 2022. Human Rights Watch for you.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/01/19/new-language-requirement-raises-concerns-ukraine
whosadooza@reddit
How about what? Do you have actually anything that is relevant?
Russian language is not forbidden in Ukraine. That is a lie.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
2019 for you.
https://www.reuters.com/article/world/ukraine-passes-language-law-irritating-president-elect-and-russia-idUSKCN1S110Y/
whosadooza@reddit
So someone now has to know Ukrainian to hold office or work for the government. So what? Do you actually have anything remotely relevant?
Russian language is not forbidden in Ukraine. That is a lie.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
I literally gave you the three different sources and you keep telling me your mantra. Ever heard of "mova patrols"?
whosadooza@reddit
Btw, speaking of "mova patrols", are you ever going to come back to your other absurd comment about Russia and Ukraine having a discussion not to hit civilian energy infrastructure that you claimed Ukraine just violated?
Heres the direct link to the Russian State media story (you have to remove the spaces for it to work):
https:// tass . com / politics/1864579
I only ask because that was also a flat out lie that the Kremlin itself literally called "fake news."
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Feel free to educate yourself
https://www.ft.com/content/69a57022-aeed-4bfe-8ada-b2ccd38f162a
whosadooza@reddit
That is literally the exact article that the Kremlin said was fake new.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
So you do believe Kremlin, right?
whosadooza@reddit
When they say they are going to bomb Ukrainian energy grid and anyone saying otherwise is fake news? Yeah. Why wouldnt I believe that. Its what theyve done for the last 2 years already.
So you think the Kremlin is lying about everything they say in Ukraine, right?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
I believe in quality media.
whosadooza@reddit
Do you believe TASS is quality media?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Did I send you a TASS link on the Qatar negotiations?
whosadooza@reddit
I sent you a TASS link vehemently denying any such "negotiation" even exists.
Do you believe TASS is quality media?
jason_abacabb@reddit
They poked holes large enough to drive through for each of your claims. Do you read your sources or just the headlinesto use them for your gish gallop
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
I did. Did you?
whosadooza@reddit
No, you didn't give me a single source for the Russian language being forbidden in Ukraine.
Russian language is not forbidden in Ukraine. That is a lie.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
https://www.dw.com/en/russias-war-in-ukraine/t-60931789
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
Russian language isn't forbidden in Ukraine you brainless tosspot. Everyone native to Ukraine speaks it, as that was what you needed to speak in the Soviet Union if you wanted to have a job. About 70 percent also speak Ukrainian. When Russia says "Ethnic Russians" or "Russian Speakers," they mean those who can't speak Ukrainian.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
You are right, not forbidden. But they are getting there.
https://www.dw.com/en/kyiv-imposes-ban-on-russian-language-culture/a-66301913
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
No it's not. If you read the article it says, quote "A temporary ban has been imposed on Russian art and culture," unquote. I can understand why they've done that, given said art and culture would likely be steered towards a direction glorifying Russia's illegal invasion.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
A temporary ban yeah.. I wonder what does the Russian speaking part of Ukraine think about this.
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
As previously mentioned, since you clearly didn't read it, EVERYONE NATIVE TO UKRAINE SPEAKS RUSSIAN. The people Moscow calls "Russian Speakers" are those who can't speak Ukrainian as well, which is about 30 percent of the population.
o0ven0o@reddit
It's much less than 30% now. It's mostly just some elderly people that can't speak Ukrainian well. Most people are understanding of that.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
You are right. Not forbidden, but they are getting there
https://www.dw.com/en/russias-war-in-ukraine/t-60931789
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Absolute kek
Eexoduis@reddit
Russia has been targeting Ukrainian power sources since 2022, after their invasion of Ukraine. They have repeatedly struck and/or destroyed hydroelectric plants and major dams. All unprovoked, of course, simply because Putin wants Ukraine.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Russia simply wants military neutral Ukraine. Simply as the US wants military-neutral Mexico, Cuba, etc.
o0ven0o@reddit
Imperialism is cool then. ok. Spheres of influence is a bullshit imperialist way of thinking.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
What is the US doing in Taiwan?
o0ven0o@reddit
Taiwan is requesting assistance? As a sovereign power, they can do that. And Taiwan is doing that because China wants to bring back Taiwan into its sphere (imperialist).
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Does the US recognize Taiwan as a sovereign country?
o0ven0o@reddit
I don’t give a shit if the US recognizes Taiwan.
throwawayerectpenis@reddit
By that logic Russia came to the "aid" of the people of Crimea and Donbass smartass.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Do you give a s'''t about your country?
o0ven0o@reddit
I care about its people.
Corvid187@reddit
Invading Ukraine provoked both Sweden and Finland to abandon their combined three centuries of neutrality and join NATO.
If having militarily-neutral neighbours was Russia's aim, how has invading Ukraine in any way facilitated that?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Because Russia considers Ukraine in NATO as a threat but doesn't consider Sweden and Finland in NATO as a threat. Quite simple, innit.
MediocreWitness726@reddit
and Eastern Europe consider Russia a threat - does that mean they should all attack Russia?
throwawayerectpenis@reddit
Those countries are not superpowers, you dont come up to a superpowers borders by flirting with the idea of joining the alliance that historically was created against you 🤓.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Do they have problems with Russia?
Eexoduis@reddit
Then Putin is unbelievably stupid.
How does America maintain neutral neighbors? Oh, yeah. Diplomacy, primarily. Embargoes with Cuba. No violence.
By invading, Putin has made guaranteed enemy of Ukraine. He’s also shown what it means to be a neighbor of Russia - either you submit and become a vassal state, or the meat waves begin. Look at Belarus, Moldova, Georgia, Chechnya.
Also, what was 2014? You claim to know Putin’s motives better than he does himself. Where is the “neutrality” defense with Crimea? No, Putin wants land. Power. And sure, he’s terrified of NATO. I’ll begrudge you that. But he’s so damn greedy for more that he drives all his neighbors into the arms of his perceived greatest enemy.
alexkidhm@reddit
And what about all the couped states, dictatorships with torturers trained by the united states, etc. In south/central america? Do you really believe in what you write?
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Diplomacy, economic incentives, covert actions - those all work well - until they don’t. If China’s carrots get bigger than ours in this century, we will still have the stick. If Mexico tries to pull a Ukraine we will fucking flatten it and it will be the right thing to do.
Eexoduis@reddit
Mexico would never try to join a military alliance with China or Russia because we are their largest trading partner. Their government would collapse from the sanctions alone.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Russia was Ukraine's largest trading partner not so long ago, looking at massive economic damage - that's why Yanuc suspended AA in the first place. None of these things are absolute. Like I said, it is entirely possible that later in this century China's carrots will be bigger than ours. But if it comes to that, Mexicans will remember the stick.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Before embargo the US literally planned to use the nukes. Russia used its diplomacy up until 2014.
Look at Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Georgia. Growing and developing countries. Is Azerbaijan a vassal state of Russia?
Chechnya is not a state by the way. Do the readings.
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
They literally weren't going to use the nukes you turnip.
Azerbaijan isn't, given it doesn't care, but Kazakhstan and Georgia are going that way. Also Chechnya is a state, or it was till Putin enlisted the goat fucker in charge of the country now to betray his comrades.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Did Kazakhstan and Georgia recognize Crimea as Russian?
If Chechnya is a state then so are Donbas, Luhansk, etc.
Thatsidechara_ter@reddit
No, they want a vassal state. Thats why they invaded in 2014 after the EuroMaidan protests.
robotoredux696969@reddit
They don't want a vassal state, they want a rump state. There is a difference.
Thatsidechara_ter@reddit
That too, yeah
robotoredux696969@reddit
Both The West and Russia, in ideal conditions, would have Ukraine as a "vassal" state. However, it's simply not plausible given the geopolitical constraints. Russia and Putin understand this and its not worth it for them. Both the West and Russia would rather destroy Ukraine entirely than allow it to become a vassal state for either side. The talking point that this war is about "defending" Ukraine has absolutely no basis in reality. This is a proxy war being fought by the US against Russia and Ukraine is the proxy.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
A vassal state would suit them better, but a neutral state would do. In ‘14 the “fuck the EU” folks became kingmakers in Ukraine, and everyone knew where that was headed.
Thatsidechara_ter@reddit
A neutral state to Russia just means a defenseless state that they can come back and try again to take over in a few years. They should be allowed to join the EU at least
whosadooza@reddit
Russia is going to bomb Ukraine's power grid because we are entering winter. That's the sole cause that will lead to it regardless of what Ukraine launches at Russia.
throwawayerectpenis@reddit
It's like punching someone saying that the other guy would have punched me anyways. Now the guy won't punch you anymore, he will take a hammer right through your skull 😆
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Russia and Ukraine were discussing a ceasefire of attacks against civilian energy infrastructure in Qatar, as reported. And then Zelensky decided to launch a pr-stunt aka the invasion of Kursk.
whosadooza@reddit
Wtf are you talking about? There was no agreement, and Russia flatly denied there was any effort being made by Russia for such an agrement.
Heres the link (you have to remove the spaces for it to work):
https:// tass . com / politics/1864579
Russia was (with absolute certainty) going to bomb Ukraine's power grid in winter with no agreement. Nothing has changed about any of that. Why are you both lying and denying the Kremlin's own assertions?
NearABE@reddit
Trashing the power grid is day one for our military. There are noteworthy exceptions but those exceptions are all countries where we intended to occupy.
I would like to encourage and affirm respect for human life. Increasing the death of enlisted enemy soldiers is definitely not an improvement. Any move that cripples an aggressors ability to wage war (or their will to wage war) is making progress.
MediocreWitness726@reddit
This - well said.
NearABE@reddit
I find it disgusting that Ukraine has not shut off Russian electricity. We even have the ideal device for it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphite_bomb
It was originally deployed as a cluster bomb. The blu-114b grenades would work well delivered individually by drones. South Korea was supposed to have the same capability “by 2024” according to Wikipedia.
TrueRignak@reddit
Does anyone believe that Russia would respect such a ceasefire? If so, I have a bridge to sell to that person.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Based on this article it was Ukraine who tanked the agreement so go figure.
https://www.ft.com/content/69a57022-aeed-4bfe-8ada-b2ccd38f162a
TrueRignak@reddit
Yeah, because no one believes that Russia would respect an agreement like that. That's what I'm saying. It is useless to even discuss of it as it would just be one more entry on the list of agreements, treaties, or conventions broken by Russia.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Merkel and Hollande on the record stated that Ukraine and the West had no desire to implement the Minsk agreements. Interesting...
TrueRignak@reddit
Fake. What Merkel and Hollande did was acknowledge that the Minsk agreements were used by Ukraine to strengthen its defenses because they knew the agreements would be violated by Russia, which is exactly what happened in 2022.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Just as I said, they had no intentions to implement it.
Nickblove@reddit
It’s funny you say that, because this is the effect of Russia invading Ukraine…
VintageGriffin@reddit
No, it's the effect of the demented fossil posing as a US president acting in the interests of the military industrial complex and their weapons contracts, one last time before he becomes irrelevant, at the expense of everyone involved, themselves included.
The cause and effect game is recursive, but the opposing sides are by far not evenly matched. Someone is going to be hurt a lot more than the other.
PerunVult@reddit
At this level of twisted conspiratorial thinking, I'm only surprised you refrained from writing Jews into it.
alexkidhm@reddit
These guys are genociding another part of the globe with the help from the usa!! How silly of him.
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
You're a brainless twit, has anyone ever told you that?
MediocreWitness726@reddit
What?
Russia has been bombing Ukraine without that.
Don't make excuses for Russia.
VintageGriffin@reddit
That's what happens when you're in open hostilities with someone. You bomb them. And they are bombing you back.
Russia however can bomb a lot more and a lot further, and had the ability to completely destroy the entire Ukrainian power grid whenever it wanted. Which it didn't. But now Ukraine is not leaving them a chance. Western media of course is not going to piece together causes and consequences and will just claim it as yet another unprovoked massive attack.
Rindan@reddit
Sure mate. Russia has been holding back because of their high respect for Ukrainian lives, but now, this time, THIS TIME, this is the final straw and they are going to stop holding back. 4 real. Believe me.
Please.
No one believes Russia is holding back on anything. It's an empty threat to threaten more missile attacks on energy infrastructure when they are already trying their hardest to destroy Ukraine's energy infrastructure and are limited by their supply of missiles, not Putin's will known love for the lives of Ukrainians.
Russia is already fighting as hard as it can. It's is nearly in its 3rd year with at least half a million dead or maimed and they have moved the front line about 30 miles at their best point. It's comical to threaten escalation at this point. Russia is obviously already fighting as hard as it can and burning its economy to do so. Russia will already spend generations recovering from this pointless war to fulfill Putin's rabid imperial ambitions. Absolutely no one believes Putin has compassion that has held him back that he is now going to give up on. No one. It's honestly comical to even suggest that idea. Not even Putin's own propagandists spout this sort of comical nonsense because it's too unbelievable even for them.
FRIENDLY_FBI_AGENT_@reddit
Goes to show Russia is all bark no bite. This strike happened after Russia modified its Nuclear policy. Germany has already confirmed that these missiles require UK/French military personnel to be on ground to target them. This is literally UK/France attacking Russia. Goes to show that unless there is a major invasion of Russia, nothing would happen.
Balls in Europe's court now. If they really give a damn about Ukr, they should deploy troops in Ukraine and end this. Russia ain't gonna do anything anyway.
DerCatrix@reddit
Who would they even hit? Cant hit anything NATO with a nuke without the full push while Biden is in office
612513@reddit
If I was Putin id keep it to Ukraine. Probably hit Kiev to make a point and then any major military installation or troop buildup.
Though even if it reached nukes, the Russians would probably want to avoid further escalation, if there is such a thing
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Why nuke a city of three million. An out of the way airbase is a much better target if you just want to use a tactical nuke to show that you will use a tactical nuke.
DerCatrix@reddit
He gets one nuke before everyone says he’s done.
GodlordHerus@reddit
Playing nuclear chicken is stupid.
It's a giant game of who blinks first but when someone eventually blinks everyone dies. NATO is only pushing the envelope because they know if Russia blinks Ukraine will get hit first. Then they will negotiate. The current trajectory of "escalating to de-escalate" is the dumbest shit I've seen in my life. It has been 3 years and all it's done is bring NATO and Russia closer to a conventional/ unconventional exchange.
The Biden admin just took the geopolitical version of taking a shit on the floor and told Trump to clean it up. How is any of this actively helping anyone? Is it bring the world closer to peace? Is it changing Russia's mind? Is it closing the growing rift between the "rest" and the "west"? Is it stopping Russian forces advances at the front? Is it even halting Russian missile attacks?
Imayormaynotneedhelp@reddit
Except here's a serious question: What, exactly, is the alternative to this that's NOT "give a nuclear power everything they want the second they threaten to nuke someone?"
The point of MAD is that a nuclear-armed state doesn't touch the button as long as everyone else doesn't, and afaik the other standard is that nukes are not a proportionate or acceptable response to anything short of another nuclear power threatening your continued existence. Which has also led to nuclear powers engaging in proxy warfare rather than direct military confrontation of course.
Therein, my opinion is that Russian nuclear retaliation would only be a reasonable and justified response if the US, UK, or France actively invaded Russian territory. We are a long way off that. This opinion is separate from any I have about the US being good guys (they're not) or if Russia has any good justification for their war of aggression in Ukraine (they dont).
Russia has nobody but themselves to blame for the expansion of NATO. Had Russia not demonstrated a tendency to try and subjugate any former USSR country they can, those countries would have no reason to fear Russia and seek protection via military alliance.
GodlordHerus@reddit
Nothing, that's the reality of the situation. There are no magic amulets that grant invincibility and immunity from radiation/nukes. It's like asking what are you supposed to do if someone is holding a gun in a room full of your family and friends. You can take a risk but everyone will be dead if you fail. The Ukrainian government is rationalizing it by saying "dead is dead". Russia will kill them regardless so their risk tolerance isn't realistic. NATO on the other hand was/is being motivated by different motivations that can be summarized as political induced stupidity
Mark Milley back in late 2022 was warning the Biden Admin that things would spiral out of control and they should push for negotiations while Russia had been humiliated post 2022 Counter offensive. We can all agree that Putin is bad, the 2022 invasion was bad, the 2014 annexation of Crimea was bad, etc... but it's not going to change the reality of the situation. All the risks that where there before each escalation are still there. The only thing that hasn't taken us over is whatever is keeping the people in the Kremlin from going Dr Strangelove. It be self preservation, fear, love for their nation etc...
Is it "right" that Russia has this ability?
It dosn't matter because they have it and can use it and the only action NATO can take against them is MAD. So that's what they have been doing. Calling out Russia's bluffs in a game of nuclear chicken, each time hoping that Russia dosn't blink. Then they can scream "look they weak they didn't decide to kill us all"
cultish_alibi@reddit
So your position is that Russia should be allowed to have everything they want, with no pushback, because they have nukes and it's too dangerous to challenge them.
Do you see the problem with that or nah? According to you Russia should be allowed to run the entire world because they have nukes.
GodlordHerus@reddit
No one allows anyone to do anything! No one simply has the ability to stop Russia from going nuclear. Just as no one "allowed" Russia's 2022 invasion. It is the ~3rd biggest militarily power in the world. That is why NATO is there, not as a magical shield that somehow protects its members, but as a reactionary force. They act NATO responds. However as stated there is nothing NATO can do physically to prevent Russian actions. All they can do is play nuclear chicken, which is stupid. In fact we've all known it's stupid during the October crisis.
Quick history lesson. The USSR put missiles in Cuba. The US freaked out and the world was on the brink of WWIII. The only thing that stopped it at the front was literally one guy that refused to go along with it in a submarine: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_submarine_B-59
While the leadership realised they where going to get millions if not everyone killed. So created the hotline: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow%E2%80%93Washington_hotline
I called the current western actions "political induced stupidity" because their Ukrainian strategy is based on a fantasy where there is a magical threshold where Russia simply collapses/ feels "maximum pain". What happens at this point they have no answer. It has been ~10 years since the crisis started and 3 ( now 4) US admins. Each have 0 real world answers to solve the crisis. While Ukraine has been turned into a rump state losing 25% its population and 20% its land. They so economically crippled they depend on aid to pay government works and pensions. The only deliverable they have is "we killed Russians and made Putin feel bad"
Like it or not there is no answer to this without nuclear war. If you feel so passionate about this Ukraine has a foreign Legion. You can go to the front in a couple months/ weeks if you have previous experience.
jadsf5@reddit
The West sat by and even assisted America in their illegal invasion of Iraq, I wonder why...
Well, I'd say its the same reason everyone sits on their hands without doing anything now, they're scared of getting nuked.
Escalate to de-escalate is doing nothing but bringing this world to total destruction.
NearABE@reddit
It is only two gambles. The first, giving Ukraine heavy weapons, happened in 2022. The second gamble is “making Russia lose the war in Ukraine”. It does not matter how Russia loses. They will be the same amount of pissed off that they lost regardless of the details.
PhoenixKingMalekith@reddit
Things is NATO has nothing to fear because Ukraine will be the one to suffer.
And Ukraine is willing to suffer if it means intendance.
Everyone knows NATO use ukrainian lives to weaken Russia as much as possible. But that s the only way for Ukraine to get the help it wants
612513@reddit
I’d argue their leadership is willing for the country to suffer. With poor volunteer numbers (see the many articles on alternate manpower sourcing) and continual illegal border crossings by men and the efforts of migrant Ukrainians to avoid returning, it doesn’t seem like regular people are that enthusiastic about suffering.
But that’s like everybody. Few want to die or even risk it. Most just want a boring, normal life.
FRIENDLY_FBI_AGENT_@reddit
It isn't. That's the point. Why would NATO stop if there is no reason from the other side.
Realistic_Lead8421@reddit
Regardless.if I am being really honest I find the possible scenarios that could develop as a result of the conflict escalating quite scary. At the same time, Putin's decision to invade Ukraine with the intention of annexing it, possibly even destroying it is not only an extreme violation of all values the modern rules based order is based on, it is also a gravel threat to th security framework in the EU. So Russian's have put the EU in a very tough spot. We simply cannot accept that Russia wins this war. There could literally be no worse time for a Trump presidency.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
The US did it in Iraq, NATO did it in Libya, the US is currently doing it in Syria and Israel is doing in Palestine. The 'rules based order' has only ever been the Western hegemony is allowed to do what it wants and everyone else just needs to shut up and not do anything similar without US approval.
NearABE@reddit
There were/are two points of risk. The gamble is huge because of the consequences. Even though the odds are low at each point the risk needs to be thought about carefully. Point number one was when USA/NATO decided to supply heavy weapons to Ukraine. That point passed in 2022. Point number two happens when people in Moscow accept that the war in Ukraine is lost. The leadership in Moscow is going to be the same upset about it regardless of how that defeat is achieved.
Giving Ukraine a new weapon or capability between now and mid January 2025 is much lower risk than at any other time. At this time Russia believes Trump will favor them. At this time Russians will not escalate. Giving Ukraine weapons or capabilities now also gives Trump the ability to remove (or ability to negotiate away) that capability in January. Our governments are not taking any risk now that they did not already take for better or worse.
It may indeed be “for worse” too. If Ukraine falls now then they fought 3 extra years of bloody warfare. A Russian occupation would probably be more brutal. The long war likely decreases the pace of an insurgency rapidly forming in occupied Ukraine or Russia.
The first gamble did nothing good for Ukraine and not much for us unless the second gamble also occurs.
cultish_alibi@reddit
Russia was publicly explaining how they wanted to commit genocide on Ukrainians in the run-up to the war. Ukraine is fighting for its survival. There's no 'easy version' where Ukraine just gives up all its sovereignty and Russia is nice to them.
Remember a large part of Ukrainian history involves Russians committing genocide against them. They have no desire to be enslaved by the fascist Russian state again.
NearABE@reddit
There are consequences. Risks. I claim there are two and only two gambles taken.
The effect of an additional weapon system is only an effect on the outcome of the war. The risk and irrelevance cancel each other.
Because of the change in power in USA the next two months are exceptionally low risk periods.
Rizen_Wolf@reddit
Ukraine will not fall. Parts of it may be lost, sure, but having Russian puppets overseeing rule in Kiev? Not happening short of nuclear war.
NearABE@reddit
You either missed my point or you deliberately diverted. There were two gambles. Getting involved and “the outcome”. There is definitely a full spectrum of outcomes. Any weapon system or ammunition could have a full spectrum of impacts on the outcome. The risks/reward impacts cancel.
It is silly to keep talking about the nuclear risk of each individual shipment of something new. The useful conversation is whether or not sending heavy weapons in 2022 was sound strategic policy.
We could talk about the example set by China and India. Soldiers from nuclear armed states beating each other with sticks might be really stupid. But what if it is not? Maybe in December 2021 and January 2022 Germany and UK could have drafted their football hooligans. German soldiers really were reported to have attended NATO exercises equipped with broom handles. How many roads and border checkpoints were there on Ukraine’s border in 2022? What if each had 2 United States Marines with cavalry sabers? Of course Putin could have ordered them to be gunned down. That would have gambled the lives of several hundred young men. Most probably would have been taken prisoner. Now we have hundreds of thousands dead. Even a 1% chance of that working sounds like a lottery ticket worth buying. We could have sent Harris to Kyiv in February 2022.
In 2022 the Russians “would be able to pull 8 to 10 thousand tanks out of storage and refurbish them”. It is a bit weird to talk about ceding territory now. The Russians burned through almost all of the Soviet arsenal. It only makes sense if Ukraine is just as wasted as the Russians.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Bro that was always just a larp. No such thing has ever existed.
couroderato@reddit
Those rules only exist in the hearts and minds of naive people who believe nato has ever been related to anything other than what it really is.
Nato is the biggest terror machine ever seen, only the genocides it carries on is mostly against people not considered to be enough humans to have the right to exist.
It's bugging how someone could say that invading Ukraine, for as horrible as it is, would be the biggest violation of mordern rules, or whatever it's supposed to mean. What a joke. These people really pretend the savagery their civilized countries carry on till this day at every single country they dare to call undeveloped.
Gaza? Iraq? Vietnam? Argentina? Chile? Brazil? Laos? Congo? Haïti? Cuba?
...Yeah, yeah, whatever you say. Let's us all keep this pretending game on. The price of caring is too high after all.
sluttytinkerbells@reddit
You genuinely don't see a difference between the way things were pre WW2 and post?
Icy-Cry340@reddit
For a little while the big boys were afraid to go to war with each other because of nukes, so you mostly saw covert interventions and proxy wars. But MAD is ending, and we were the ones to start putting nails in its coffin.
Post Cold War order was basically us doing what we want, eurocucks doing what they’re told, and our enemies kvetching impotently.
putcheeseonit@reddit
Russia is literally preparing a massive response as we speak lol.
IjonTichy85@reddit
I'm shaking in my boots lol
Magistar_Idrisi@reddit
Where are you from? Ukraine? No? Then shut up
TrumpsGrazedEar@reddit
Putin threatened Eu with nukes to. You should start worrying...
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Eh, not really.
TrumpsGrazedEar@reddit
-side what claims Russia will nuke rest of the world once a week
Icy-Cry340@reddit
Medvedev is Putin now?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
You are not because for you sitting in a comfy chair somewhere it's all fun and games. "Give them rockets!" In the meantime as this war drags because Russia can't backtrack and Ukraine or rather Zelensky can't backtrack because he cornered himself since 2022 and the West is doing nothing to either stop this war or help Ukraine to win thousands of people are dying. Slavic people for the most part. Russia will come out ugly of this war, Ukraine will come crippled. The US will be fine as usual and start poking China with the Taiwan issue.
SpinningHead@reddit
LOL "Surrender your country to us because we care about you."
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Is it better now for Ukraine?
PerunVult@reddit
Yeah. It's WAY better than ruzzian occupation.
IjonTichy85@reddit
Your account is pretty fresh but since its creation you're posting pro putin talking points every hour of every day. Either you're completely obsessive or you're just a sock puppet here to spread propaganda and steer the discussion.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
How about this: I am actually pro-Ukrainian. Think about it for 10 minutes.
IjonTichy85@reddit
By spending your days and nights endlessly spamming Kremlin talking points on reddit?
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
This is fake news. And you didn't think for ten minutes. Try again.
IjonTichy85@reddit
What's fake news? Everyone can click on your profile and see what you're posting
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Everyone can click on my profile and see that I am top-10 commenter on this sub.
IjonTichy85@reddit
how does this contradict what I've said? You're either an obsessed terminally online useful idiot or some schmuck in a troll factory.
Drexer_@reddit
For the public opinion is already too much sending weapons. Sending troops would likely make the government one of the most unpopular of the late history
cultish_alibi@reddit
Source?
What government?
robotoredux696969@reddit
Username checks out. Let's keep provoking and escalating and see how well that goes for Ukraine. We are 90 seconds before midnight and your cavalier attitude about nuclear war is going to get us all killed.
FRIENDLY_FBI_AGENT_@reddit
Why would I? Not my war. This conflict should be negotiated and ended but with this strike, it is evident that West has 0 interest in ending war and Russia has no response to escalation as evident by lack on anything after ATACMS strike.
Musikcookie@reddit
Yes, turns out the west is not very interested in handing the rich east of Ukraine to Russia after somewhat tolerating Russias annexation of Crimea. Historically the countries of the EU struggled for decades to arrive at a geographic reality of borders that for most borders is uncontested and remains unchanged. (Notable exceptions of course do exist.) Russia has proven again and again that it wants to change geographic realities in its favor constantly. Crimea, Donbas and we all know that Russia would like to take a piece from more countries on its west but can‘t because of the Nato. So now Russia has arrived at a point where concessions about territorial changes are not simply tolerated with finger wagging and half assed sanctions anymore.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
What other territories until 2022 did Russia annex except Crimea?
Musikcookie@reddit
I think ”annexing Crimea and then flat out attacking Ukraine“ counts enough? Other than that there‘s also be the occupation of Georgian territory in 2008 though.
Diplomatically there is also Belarus. Now this I recognize to not be a direct transgression because it happened diplomatically in 1997 (I think?) but it‘s also naive to not think that Russia will seek total domination over those lands eventually - mind you that so far this is supposed to be more of a confederation style union.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
What Georgian territory was occupied in ‘08 that wasn’t already de facto independent? Are you talking about the “moving border fence” larp?
Ithinkitstruetoo@reddit
Georgia, Moldova….
theBadRoboT84@reddit
South Ossetian and Abkhaz
Chechnya
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Russia didn't annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Chechnya is a Russian region.
robotoredux696969@reddit
Eventually, if you keep climbing the escalation ladder, things could spiral out of control real fast. Relying on "Russia's Bluff" while constantly escalating is not sound military strategy.
27Rench27@reddit
If we subscribed to this mentality from the beginning, Ukraine wouldn’t even have western missiles right now.
robotoredux696969@reddit
Yeah and maybe Ukraine and Russia would have come to a quick settlement in 2022 before the USA and UK decided to shut down the negotiations in favor of playing hard ball.
coltzord@reddit
with "a quick settlement" you mean russia getting control of the eastern parts of ukraine, yeah? the eu doesnt want russia getting closer, thats not gonna happen
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
Russia was ready to withdraw from the large part of Eastern Ukraine in 2022.
Russia controls now more Ukrainian territory than it did in 2022.
Way more Ukrainians are killed and displaced since 2022.
USA sold more LNG to Europe since 2022.
Ruby_of_Mogok@reddit
It would be a grim joke when after a nuclear exchange those who'd be left alive will scratch their heads and ask themselves: did we really start all of this because of Chasiv Yar and Avdiivka?
Artistic_Mouse_5389@reddit
They’re not gonna respond to a lame duck
DinBedsteVen6@reddit
Who's the lame duck in this situation?
PerunVult@reddit
Idiom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lame_duck_(politics)
Artistic_Mouse_5389@reddit
Biden
Delicious-Window-277@reddit
Genuinely, how is this good for the average Ukrainian? We are going to pretend like there isn't more russia could do to harm the military and civilian populace in that nation?
Rizen_Wolf@reddit
Hmm. Considering this utter train wreck of comments and votes I thought Ukraine managed to hit something quite important successfully.
Not so hidden or deep was that command center then? Not so well protected was it (because you cant visibly protect without revealing it as location of the hidden).
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