Virtually no aid has reached besieged north Gaza in 40 days, UN says
Posted by kwentongskyblue@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 344 comments
Posted by kwentongskyblue@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 344 comments
BrownThunderMK@reddit
The starvation and ethnic cleansing of civilians from North Gaza continues via the 'generals plan'. Under the guise of getting rid of Hamas, The IDF is starving hundreds of thousands and massacring civilians regularly, the message is clearly 'leave, die to our bullets, or starve to death'.
These civilians will never be allowed back home they will just be crammed into an increasingly smaller concentration camp.
Can we please just sanction these war criminals...
ADP_God@reddit
Why are there still civilians in north Gaza?
BrownThunderMK@reddit
Zionists like you read a paragraph detailing IDF war crimes then ask stupid open ended questions like these. No matter what answer I give it'll be a categorical rejection, because you people aren't interested in evidence or facts. Have a nice day
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
But you didn’t answer the question. Why are civilians in northern Gaza?
historicusXIII@reddit
They live there.
Stubbs94@reddit
Israel started their ethnic cleansing in the centre and south so people went back north to flee from the occupying power murdering them.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
It’s not really an ethnic cleansing if they are being pushed back south is it. You must feel really stupid because you told civilians not to evacuate a combat zone in fear of an ethnic cleansing which probably got a lot of them killed. Now you suggest starving to death in a siege.
You are a monster.
vemeron@reddit
The fuck are you smoking Israel was bombing the evacuation routes they set up for civilians this is well documented.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
I’m not smoking copiom like you fools.
I heard ethnic cleaning. They are being forced north and won’t be able to return. Now they are being forced back south. Ethnic cleaning was a lie.
vemeron@reddit
If you keep moving a group of people and killing Korean and more of them each time you move them what do you call it? A normal Wednesdays? Get your head out of your ass.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
It’s called evacuating civilians from active combat zones which is how you conduct a war under international law.
vemeron@reddit
And when you bomb them on the evacuation routes you yourself set up?
What would call that? go on you can tell the class it's ok.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Those strikes are legal under the laws of war as long as they target military targets and the civilians casualties are proportional to the military objective.
Do you have any actual evidence to prove they are illegal strikes?
vemeron@reddit
https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/16/middleeast/israel-palestinian-evacuation-orders-invs/index.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-67113144
Kling civilians along an evacuation route is illegal in itself and possibly a war crime especially after Israel guaranteed their safety then blew them up anyway.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
I have no doubt that targeting civilians on an evacuation route is illegal. Targeting civilians is illegal.
Targeting Hamas terrorists and accidentally killing civilians on the other hand is not illegal.
roydez@reddit
Moment Israeli tank appears to fire on car inside Gaza
A civilian car bombed by a tank once it came in range in a road designated as evacuation route. Are these terrorists or collateral damage?
vemeron@reddit
Ah you're one of those everyone in Gaza is a terrorist types that makes much more sense.
I bet you believe every IDF press release without bothering to verify
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Nope, terrorists target civilians. I am well aware of the difference between collateral damage and terrorism.
Not so sure you know the difference though.
vemeron@reddit
Like bombing aid convoys? or setting off mass pager attack or dressing up as doctors and executing patients in west banks hospitals?
You're rooting for terrorist there bud.
monkwren@reddit
Congrats on doing exactly what was predicted.
Stubbs94@reddit
There are no safe spaces in Gaza, Israel bombs everywhere there are people.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
No, it’s a small country at war. There are no 100% safe spaces. But there are active combat zones including a legal siege under the laws of war which you are suggesting civilians stay inside of. That’s sickening.
Stubbs94@reddit
You are taking a really weird stance, it's actually impressive the mental gymnastics you're employing to absolve Israel of the blatant crimes against humanity it's currently committing. Where are the people in Gaza supposed to go? Israel designates "safe zones" and then firebombs them.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
The north is under siege which under the Geneva convention is legal as long as civilians are allowed to evacuate. You are telling people to starve to death in a besieged area to prevent a possible ethnic cleansing.
I have no doubt in my mind that cowards like you would be first in line for humanitarian aid in southern Gaza after telling everyone else to stay put.
IAMADon@reddit
Your first sentence is wrong, and the second is an admission that the IDF are committing war crimes.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-civilian-population-during-sieges-what-law-says
Read it yourself because everything you said here is a complete lie.
IAMADon@reddit
Okay, let's play that game. From your own link, seeing as you clearly haven't read it:
Should I go on?
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Israel aren’t targeting civilians. They are telling civilians to leave.
Do you have any evidence to suggest the move is permanent? Or the siege is targeted against civilians?
IAMADon@reddit
Yes.
Sieges don't target people, they target areas, and they haven't allowed humanitarian aid into the area whilst civilians remain there to forcibly displace them. Hence, war crimes.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
On Thursday, an IDF spokesperson said Brig Gen Cohen’s comments had been taken out of context during a discussion about Jabaliya, and did not “reflect the IDF’s objectives and values.”
A brig general doesn’t have the power to make that call. A brig general commands a division and oversees in planning and carrying out missions. Brig generals do not set policy.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
You act like the south isn't also under siege and attack and that Israel doesn't have a track record of bombing the places they displace civilians to
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Now if only hamas would surrender, or you know, never started the war in the first place.
Stubbs94@reddit
Even if you want to see Israel is operating a "legal" siege, you know it's illegal under international law to use starvation as a weapon? You're legally not allowed to deny food and essentials to those you besiege. So even if you were right, Israels denial of aid into Northern Gaza is still a war crime.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Wrong.
“Sieges may only be directed exclusively against the enemy’s armed forces.
Unfortunately, civilians are often trapped within when entire towns or other populated areas are besieged, causing unspeakable suffering. IHL offers vital protection to these civilians by imposing limits to what the parties can do during such sieges. Crucially, civilians must be allowed to leave a besieged area, when it is required to spare them from the effects of military operations or when they lack the goods essential for their survival, including whenever a siege involves the use of starvation as a method of warfare.”
Pincer moves and enveloping pockets is the main strategy used by all militaries. Once the force is cut off a defensive line is put in place and the enemy is starved out.
Stubbs94@reddit
I literally used the same source and it mentions what I said later on: "IHL prohibits the starvation of the civilian population as a method of warfare. Depriving civilians of supplies essential to their survival (such as food, water and medical supplies) in a besieged area cannot be used by a besieging party as a legitimate means to subdue its enemy.
Accordingly, sieges that have the purpose of starving the civilian population are prohibited, and a besieging party that uses starvation as a method of warfare against enemy forces must ensure that its effects are directed exclusively at those enemy forces. Using starvation as a method of warfare in a manner that indiscriminately also deprives civilians of supplies essential to their survival cannot be justified by asserting that its purpose was only to starve enemy forces. Whenever civilians are caught up in the besieged area, the besieging party must allow the civilians to leave the besieged area, because experience shows that in practice these civilians will share the privation caused by a siege and may be expected to be left with their basic needs unmet. If civilians nevertheless remain, the besieging party must comply with IHL rules on humanitarian relief to the civilians."
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Good thing civilians aren’t the target and are being told to leave by all rational parties.
Only people telling them to stay are on this subreddit sitting in comfort and safety hundreds of miles away.
Pklnt@reddit
Don't waste your time with horrible people.
inspired_corn@reddit
Some of their bullies got beaten up in Amsterdam and the Zionists had the fucking nerve to compare it to the horrific treatment of the Jewish people by the Nazis. Their shamelessness has no limits.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Considering Hitler killed 62% of jews in countries he invaded, vs less than 1% gazan civilians dead, what a great job they're doing.
If you launch a genocidal invasion like hamas and refuse to surrender, well, say bye bye to some of your lands
Pklnt@reddit
"Less than 1% of Gazan civilians killed is a nothingburger, however, 0.009% of Israeli civilians killed is genocidal"
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Yep it's the intent that matters as you hamas love to scream about.
Killing and raping literally everyone those gazans encountered is genocide.
Any more questions?
Pklnt@reddit
October 7 killed 2 civilians for 1 military target.
Same ratio that the IDF claims to be tremendously positive in Gaza.
No more questions, we've already determined you're a clown.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
10/7 was a terrorist invasion, similar to Pearl Harbor. The IDF response is just like the US responding after Dec 7th.
And yep it's completely justified, and congrats to hamas for losing likely half their land.
Stubbs94@reddit
I feel it's always good to let them actually show their views, because it may show people who are somehow still neutral to the fact that the anti Palestinian and anti human rights side are absolutely devoid of all humanity.
travistravis@reddit
If you were told to leave, and the people telling you to leave had previously bombed the evacuation routes, I could see why some people wouldn't. Seems like they're choosing between being bombed at home, or being bombed on the road, or being bombed in their tent.
PreviousCurrentThing@reddit
The IDF is working as fast as it can but ethnic cleansing just takes time. You shouldn't be so impatient.
BrownThunderMK@reddit
Their question is a common zionist bait tactic. Ask for evidence(while ignoring the source article and my previous comment) and then the burden of proof is on me. Then deny deny deny.
I can't help you with you lack of reading comprehension. Have a nice day!
slickweasel333@reddit
Way to label someone as a zionist for asking a question...
stoiclandcreature69@reddit
Where are they supposed to go?
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Southern Gaza.
stoiclandcreature69@reddit
That’s a great place to be slaughtered
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
All the aid is going to southern Gaza because the north is besieged. Do you need food and water to survive or are you built different?
stoiclandcreature69@reddit
IDF terrorists are slaughtering civilians in the south. Do you need to be alive to survive or are you built different?
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Pretty dumb point because there’s estimated to be hundreds of thousands of civilians still inside northern Gaza. The current civilian death estimates after more than a year of war is around 40,000.
Is it better for hundreds of thousand of civilians to starve to death or for a fraction of them to die as collateral damage?
If your using their deaths for propaganda you probably want them to all starve to death in a siege. It’s disgusting what you people are suggesting.
stoiclandcreature69@reddit
The 40,000 is an underestimate because they can’t accurately estimate the death toll due to most hospitals in Gaza being destroyed.
As someone with a heart, I want the siege to end. I wanted it to end previous to October 7th. Not sure why you sickos want children to be poisoned and hungry
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
I want a long term solution.
The blockade is in place from both Egypt and Israel due to terrorist attacks. The blockade is an occupation right? And occupation justifies violent resistance right?
So removing the terrorist group in charge of Gaza would drop the blockade and then Gaza would not be occupied so no need for violent resistance.
Do you have a better idea?
stoiclandcreature69@reddit
The terrorist group in charge of Gaza is there because of Israeli interference. Obviously, if peace is the goal, the last country that should get a say in how Gaza is governed is Israel.
About 80% of Gaza residents are refugees. Ending the blockade is a step in the right direction but does nothing to get these refugees back to their homeland
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
The borders of Gaza haven’t really changed since 1947. If the average age is 18 and the average life expectancy is 75. And homeland means a persons native land. The nakba was 1948.
Then 99.9% of people were born in Gaza and are native to Gaza which makes Gaza their homeland. You can’t be a refugee in your homeland.
roydez@reddit
Does this logic also apply to the OG?
ubion@reddit
Ideally idf stops actively killing half of gaza chasing ghosts
travistravis@reddit
There's not even close to enough going into southern Gaza either.
Killeroftanks@reddit
because theres a 10% chance they could survive and stay.
or a 100% chance of living, but living in a refugee camp for the next 5 decades. if israel doesnt bomb that camp as well.
its a damned if you do damned if you dont situation.
Throwaway5432154322@reddit
Idk, one of those choices sounds insanely better than the other one
travistravis@reddit
I honestly don't know which I'd say is better - potentially decades of near starvation in a refugee camp while colonisers are living on your family land, or just giving up, since odds are good you'll get bombed eventually anyway...
Throwaway5432154322@reddit
Whatever hyperbolic, overly-generalizing national myth makes it easier to justify some version of cross-generational group-level martyrdom, I guess
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Because every time Israel tells them to go south for their own safety it turns out that was just a lie and they'll bomb the south anyway? We've watched it happen over and over for almost 2 years now. 'go south' 'go north' 'go down this highway' 'go in that field' yet somehow the civilians keep getting bombed or shot
AgileBlackberry4636@reddit
Oh if only there was a land border to another country... ideally with a similar language, faith and culture.
robotoredux696969@reddit
Better idea. All the Israelis should just be relocated to Brooklyn and Florida.
lennoco@reddit
99.9% of Jews in the Middle East have been ethnically cleansed from the surrounding states. Most of them ended up in Israel, their original indigenous homeland and the only Jewish nation on earth, where they are the largest demographic.
Now you want to complete the ethnic cleansing of Jews in the Middle East.
Fascinating.
robotoredux696969@reddit
Actually, in reality, i am against ethnic cleansing. I am merely trying to highlight the casual attitude Zionists have when it comes to recommending Palestinians "relocate" to other countries.
"Their indigenous homeland" haha. That's a good one. Most of these people immigrating to Israel are white Europeans.
lennoco@reddit
Jews in Europe are from the Israel originally… many of them ended up in Europe after being enslaved by the Romans. This is well documented history and is also supported by DNA tests. It’s never been a mystery where Jews in Europe originated, despite the attempts of anti-Zionists pushing debunked theories to erase Jewish history and erase the Jewish connection to Israel.
Jews were told to go back to the Middle East for over a thousand years in Europe, and killed and oppressed because they were considered foreign others, and then they go back and are suddenly told they’re white Europeans.
Jews apparently come from nowhere and belong nowhere, despite having one of the longest documented histories of any group.
robotoredux696969@reddit
Ahh the DNA tests and the "well documented history". There is enough evidence that the Palestinians are more indigenous to that territory than any of the white europeans making "birthright".
Let's say for arguments sake that you are right about the DNA, the indigenous connection to the land, etc. It's not really an interesting argument and it's a bit of a red herring. The native americans tribes are indigenous to the United States and many of their ancestors still exist. Is indigeneity a moral justification for ethnically cleansing or genociding the current inhabitants who have been living on the land?
lennoco@reddit
Arabs oppressed and pogromed the Jews in the region for over a thousand years.
When Jews legally purchased lands for exorbitant exploitive prices, they were attacked in pogroms.
Five Arab nations attempted to annihilate the Jews in Israel and lost.
The entire ancient Jewish quarter of Jerusalem and the Jewish communities in the West Bank were fully ethnically cleansed of Jews.
78% of what was considered historic Palestine was given to a family from what is now Saudi Arabia and named Jordan.
Where is your DNA from, North American? It’s most likely quite ironic for you to be making claims about DNA and indigeneity in the Middle East when it’s most likely you are not a Native American
robotoredux696969@reddit
Just want to highlight that you dodged this question that I posed to you:
The so-called biblical claims have absolutely zero bearing from a legal or human rights perspective. All of the settlements in the West Bank, including the wall that was built to protect them, are illegal under international law. There is no ambiguity about whether they are illegal there is international consensus (only Israel and the US reject the consensus). What we are seeing today is the logical and inevitable next phase of the Zionist project. Ethnic cleansing of the native population was always a core feature of Zionism and the ethnic cleansing and theft of land we see today has the same essential character as the Zionism of the early 1900s.
lennoco@reddit
Where did I make biblical claims for the land ownership? There is extensive archaeological evidence of Jewish indigeneity, extensive written evidence of Jewish indigeneity dating back thousands of years, extensive archaeological and written evidence of Jews being forced into diaspora, etc.
"The native americans tribes are indigenous to the United States and many of their ancestors still exist. Is indigeneity a moral justification for ethnically cleansing or genociding the current inhabitants who have been living on the land? Are the native americans morally and ethically justified to come back and ethnically cleanse modern day Americans?"
Okay, let's play with your hypothetical:
Imagine if Native Americans had been forced to purchase land in America from the colonizers. They've started buying large swathes of land and building communities on them. Now suddenly the surrounding groups get resentful and start attacking and killing random Natives. It's decided that for the safety of the Natives, a separate state centered around the land they've purchased will be established for them where they can be their own sovereign group. The day this is announced, the surrounding inhabitants attempt to wipe out all of the Natives and take the land, and lose.
Now every ten years or so, the surrounding inhabitants continue to launch large scale attacks on the Natives, and raise their children to believe that their highest calling in life is murdering the Natives, that the Natives are satanic, and the surrounding governments actually will pay your family for years if you manage to murder a Native.
This is a more accurate depiction of what has occurred.
roydez@reddit
You people will always sound ridiculous for arguing that an Australian or European who hasn't stepped foot in the Levant for 2000 years is somehow more indigenous than the people who have been living in the Levant continuously because that Australian believes in Yahweh and the current people who live in the Levant believe in Allah and the fossils for Yahweh are older than the fossils for Allah.
lennoco@reddit
The Jewish residents were largely expelled and forced into an often hostile diaspora, and the later Islamic conquerors created systems intentionally designed to keep the Jewish population low. It was not that Jews didn’t want to return—this longing is heavily documented and multiple attempts were made to varying degrees of success over the years.
Many of the current Palestinians are the descendants of migrants to the region, during a time when movement was more constant throughout the Ottoman Empire. These immigrations are well documented.
I am not saying the group who identify as Palestinians should not be allowed to live in the region. I think both Jews and Arabs should be able to live with peace and dignity in the region.
Unfortunately, ethnic and religious conflict has long marred the region. People have complained for years that the borders created after the fall of the Ottoman Empire didn’t properly take into account the disparate groups, and this has been blamed for a lot of the ethnic and religious conflicts in the region.
The people who adopt this viewpoint think that borders should have been more accurately divided to create individual states for different ethnic groups (such as the Kurds, or Shia/Sunni splits, etc) yet many of these same people bristle at the idea of one Jewish state, despite the thousands of years old continuous presence of Jews in the region,
roydez@reddit
Am I one of those?
lennoco@reddit
Canaanite DNA is found throughout Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, etc. It does not necessarily mean your family lived in area that is now the current state of Israel for thousands of years.
It’s possible they did, it’s possible they did not.
roydez@reddit
Yeah you can check distance from different Canaanite samples.
I seem to be closest to the ones retrieved from Megiddo, Baqah.
Your arguments are simply dogshit. I can also look at other Palestinian samples and check distance. I can also check my average distance from other modern populations including Palestinians and what a surprise I am not an outlier.
"There was a Jewish civilization here 3500 BC we have the right to ethnically cleanse indigenous non-Jewish people to establish a Jewish state."
Your argument in a nutshell. I mean at first you tried to argue that we're not indigenous but science is not on your side.
Snoo66769@reddit
When did the Jewish civilisation stop existing there?
roydez@reddit
Where did I say that it stopped existing? You're really looking to grasp at straws there.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Not all of the settlements in the West Bank are illegal. The area of divisions were agreed upon by Palestinians and Israelis. The problem isn that the PLA/O and now the PA haven’t abided by any of their end of the deal so Israel sees fit to not uphold their end of the deal. You can’t solely blame Israel for any of this, should they steal land? No, but the PA should also be limiting islamists and attacks originating from the West Bank as the plan had outlined. Israeli military presence has grown the more the PA has become lax about protecting Israel from Palestinian fundamentalists.
derpstickfuckface@reddit
It's funny, the term Palestine was created as a means to erase Jewish nationalism after Roman ethnic cleansing of the area.
Benzodiazeparty@reddit
that’s racist and wrong.
KardalSpindal@reddit
I mean, that happen after the surrounding nations watched a religuous minority be used as a justification to ethnically cleanse and colonize the land that is now Israel. Not saying I condone it, but context matters.
perpetrification@reddit
You mean the surrounding nations that told the arabs in Israel to leave while they fought a genocidal war on Jews to get rid of the problem?
Your argument doesn’t really hold up when you think about how many Arabs stayed in Israel who have full civil rights and protections today, meanwhile there are no Jews in what was part of Jordan and Egypt following that war which is now Palestine.
KardalSpindal@reddit
I wouldn't call a war sparked by Israeli terrorism and ethnic cleansing genocidal.
perpetrification@reddit
Hahahaha okay we know who got their history lessons from Qatari state propaganda networks and TikTok
KardalSpindal@reddit
I’m happy to add to my reading list if you have any suggestions
perpetrification@reddit
There are plenty of openly available historical sources beyond the TikTok’s that you’re basing your entire misunderstanding of “Palestine” on.
You are just too lazy to seek them out because they don’t feed your confirmation bias.
The ethnic conflict between Arabs and Jews was far from one sided and it sucks that the Arabs lost and had to leave the land they were mostly renting. Maybe that should have negotiated. Except we’ve seen throughout the last century there is no negotiating with Arabs because they won’t settle for anything less than a Jew-free Levant or a society where Jews are treated as dhimmy in the way you incorrectly believe Arabs are treated in Israel.
lennoco@reddit
Israel was ethnically cleansed and colonized by the Arabs starting in the 600s. Systems were put in place to make it as difficult as possible for Jews to continue living there, from excessive taxation for being Jewish, to bans on property ownership, to destroying the vineyards that economically supported Jews because wine is haram in Islam, pogroms, etc.
There was over a thousand years of systematic oppression against Jews in the region.
The slaughter and mistreatment of Jews in the Middle East did not begin in 1948.
ODHH@reddit
Israel was not ethnically cleansed by the Arabs, the existing populations became Arabs by adopting the language and culture.
This lie is disgusting.
The Palestinians have been in the Levant since the Bronze Age and nothing you racist ethno-supremacists say will change that fact.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Palestinians
lennoco@reddit
The idea of Palestinians as a unique ethnic and cultural identity is a recent phenomena. There is a level of social engineering going on here to create this idea of a unique cultural group called the Palestinians that was not previously utilized until the mid 1960s by Yasser Arafat in order to create an identity in opposition to Zionism.
Most modern day Palestinians had their roots within the larger Ottoman Empire region who moved to the area for various reasons. 1/6th of Egypt's population left Egypt at the turn of 19th century due to famine, with many settling in Palestine, and again in 1829 when thousands of people fled harsh labor laws imposed by the Egyptian ruler, Mehmmet Ali Pasha. In 1831, Egypt invaded Palestine, and many of the soldiers decided to stay there. This is why the third most common surname amongst Palestinians is Al-Masri (or "The Egyptian").
Then in 1850, rebellion against French rule in Algeria led many Arabs and Imazhigen from North Africa to settle in Palestine. Then, in 1863-1878, Russia murdered 1.5-2 million Muslim Circassians in the Circassian Genocide, and expelled about 1.5 million of them. The Ottoman authorities resettled many of these refugees amongst various parts of the Ottoman Empire, including in the Levant.
While it is true that many of the modern day Palestinians do have Canaanite DNA due to the way people spread throughout the region over the past thousands of years and Canaanite DNA can be found in people spreading from upper Syria all the way to the Western regions of North Africa, the group now known as Palestinians were never considered a specific unique ethnic group or nationality until it became politically convenient to identify as such. The term Palestinian to identify a group only arises within the 20th century.
I'm not saying this in order to say that Palestinians do not also deserve a home and a state, but to say that there has been a level of disingenuous social engineering occuring to make well intentioned people believe things that are not truly accurate.
ODHH@reddit
All that gobbledygook and you can’t tell the difference between nationality (decided by your oppressor or your ability to defend yourself against would be oppressors) and your ancestry which is determined by where your ancestors lived.
The Palestinian people have been Palestine for thousands of years and you can’t change that fact no matter how much propaganda you try to spread.
lennoco@reddit
No, they have not all been in Palestine for thousands of years. Some of them, sure, but there are also many historical accounts over the past thousand years that discuss how barren and unpopulated the region was, and the population movements throughout the region are well documented and understood.
I don't know why you're so desperate to push false narratives instead of actually working through the nuance of the reality.
ODHH@reddit
I think it’s hilarious you stoped your copy and paste one sentence short.
lennoco@reddit
Did you actually even look at the DNA studies linked to the sentence you just posted?
Here's a picture from the study to make it easy for you:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=3585000_pgen.1003316.g002.jpg
The Saudis/Jordanians/Palestinians/Lebanon Muslim populations are more closely linked to each otehr while the Jewish population/Druze/Lebanese Christians are more closely linked to each other.
Almost like there was...gee...I dunno--immigration from Arabia into the region during the Arab colonization of the region.
ODHH@reddit
Yeah, people who share a culture and religion marry each other. News at 11.
I bet it would blow your mind to find out the oldest Arab artifacts are actually from Syria and not Saudi Arabia.
I don’t know why you’re changing the topic anyways, Palestinians have been in Palestine for thousands of years. Stop lying about it.
lennoco@reddit
The very sources you linked to dispute the claims you are making.
This is absolutely bizarre. You are willfully deluding yourself by ignoring well known historical information about population movements and what these DNA studies show.
Continue to live in a delusional echo chamber though, cause it seems that's where you want to be.
KardalSpindal@reddit
So are you supporting the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians now as a way of righting an ethnic cleansing of Jews that happened hundreds of years ago?
lennoco@reddit
I don't support the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians...Hope this helps.
KardalSpindal@reddit
Then why it is that above you pass by the comment calling for relocating Palestinians and only object to the comment talking about relocating Jews?
lennoco@reddit
Relocating a civilian population temporarily during a war so that they can be out of harm's way is something normally encouraged during a war...
Except in this conflict.
If Israel wants to move civilians out of the way, they are accused of ethnic cleansing.
And if they don't move civilians out of the way and civilians get killed during the war, they are accused of genocide.
People are just using the Palestinian civilians as pawns for their political aspirations. Hamas is on record saying they want Palestinian civilians to die because it helps the PR of their cause.
Meanwhile Egypt builds an even more rigorous border than the one Israel has with Gaza and nobody seems upset at Egypt for not helping.
perpetrification@reddit
They refuse to argue in good faith. Every time you provide them with facts which dont aline with their “Jews bad” fictional historical narrative, their cognitive dissonance kicks in and they revert to DARVO and character assassination lmao
perpetrification@reddit
I mean look at what they did to East Jerusalem and the WB when it was part of jordan lmao. Ethnically cleansed all the Jews and now act like it’s a crime against humanity to allow a Jew to step foot bacj in the area.
lennoco@reddit
They just don’t seem to want Jews to live anywhere.
perpetrification@reddit
When Iran gets a regime change and stops pumping out all of this propaganda, these kids are gonna realize how gullible and stupid they have been in the past year (since the day a thousand Jews were raped and slaughtered and the internet told them to start caring bc Jews bad)
lennoco@reddit
Nah, because the Jews clearly did 10/7 to themselves. The Arabs have never done anything bad to the Jews and any claims that they have are actually just a sneaky Jewish trick done by the Jews themselves. /s
These people are going to have a lot of shame to reckon with one day
BobbyB200kg@reddit
2 bots talking to each other
ODHH@reddit
This is not true. The original Zionists had to resort to false flag attacks to convince Jews from Arab countries to leave once they got over their horrible racism.
Ben Gurion once called Moroccan Jews savages in the Knesset. Early Moroccan Jews in Israel even compared the early Zionists to the Nazis because of how racist they were.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2021-07-10/ty-article-magazine/.highlight/horrified-by-racism-moroccan-immigrants-in-israel-warned-families-not-to-follow/0000017f-e683-df2c-a1ff-fed3ce450000
lennoco@reddit
Denying the well-documented treatment of Jews in those countries and events like the Farhud is some insane work, my guy. Jews had their properties and assets seized in many of these countries and many were forced into kangaroo courts. Jews were murdered by mobs, Jews were executed on extremely flimsy evidence, etc.
ODHH@reddit
You talking about how Israel treats the Palestinians?
lennoco@reddit
Interesting deflection to not back up your historical disinformation campaign
ODHH@reddit
Hmm I wonder why they had to do this stuff
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1950–1951_Baghdad_bombings
Real nice people from the get go eh?
Throwaway5432154322@reddit
What do either of those places have to do with Jewish culture & history?
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Shrug it's hamas who launched a genocidal invasion and repeat endlessly their goals is to repeat 10/7.
Congrats you get to lose your lands with that attitude
AgileBlackberry4636@reddit
If shit goes down, I am OK with Jewish refugees living next to me.
robotoredux696969@reddit
You make ethnic cleansing sound like such a reasonable and generous solution! How thoughtful of you.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
I love how we're cool with ethnic cleansing and forced displacement now
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Much better then trapping them in a siege to starve to death. But then the Palestine “supporters” can’t use their deaths to attack Israel.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Might you consider a universe of options that is not limited to:
1) Die in a genocide 2) Be ethnically cleansed from your home
Benzodiazeparty@reddit
usually when a side in a war is devastated by the other, they surrender.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Civilians can’t surrender
Benzodiazeparty@reddit
true. then maybe the people ruling them should start giving a shit about them and surrender. i’m as appalled as the next guy at what is happening to innocent civilians by israel and the idf. but there’s another way. they don’t have to keep dying. i hope there is a ceasefire and the hostages are returned and hamas is either destroyed or surrendered and gazans can start rebuilding their lives soon. in a perfect world.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
So you’re admitting that killing civilians is just a collective punishment tactic. This is a war crime.
Benzodiazeparty@reddit
i’m saying what israel is doing is wrong, and that i hope the terrorists surrender so innocents stop dying. i don’t know where you read anything about collective punishment in my comment. i have no opinion on that matter because i don’t have the knowledge. there are other factors to consider as well i’m sure.
cultish_alibi@reddit
So what Israel is doing is wrong, but it's not their fault because they have to commit war crimes? Is that what you are saying?
Committing war crimes is a choice. And with the 99% military control Israel has in Northern Gaza, all the civilians who are being shot and starved is a choice by the IDF and the Israeli government.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Then since hamas is committing 100 war crimes every single day by using human shields, I'm sure you're fine with the idf wiping them out :)
And nope hamas are terrorists hiding among the population so the idf can't go deep into distribution, so try again
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Your argument is that the IDF and Hamas are morally equivalent? That’s what you’re insisting by demanding that Israel act as Hamas has acted.
I thought the whole “we are morally superior to terrorists” thing was derived from our supposed refusal to kill civilians purposefully.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Hama's goal is killing every last civilian, Israel is to avoid killing as much citizens as possible.
Which is why the world continues to ship them weapons, all 164 countries maintain diplomatic relations, and are just waiting for them to finish hamas off.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Israel has admitted publicly it authorized strikes with known 15:1 civilian casualty ratios. That’s far from “avoid killing” civilians as possible.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Which doesn't reflect the overall near 1:1 ratio, not even close. So I'll take that as false or extremely rare.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Can you provide evidence of a 1:1 ratio? Because last I checked, killing 33 civilians and 0 terrorists is not 1:1 ratio.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
40k+ deaths, roughly 1 to 1. Not sure where you get 33 civilians and 0 terrorists
Ropetrick6@reddit
40k deaths MINIMUM before the infrastructure to report deaths was destroyed by the IDF. By your own admission, the IDF isn't getting a 1:1 ratio.
God you zionazis are getting worse and worse at this as time goes on.
Snoo66769@reddit
They have the exact same system for reporting deaths - a public online form that anyone can fill out. They haven’t followed the usual method of tracking deaths since the beginning of the war - well before 40k deaths
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Thats more than a great sample size so unless some strategy changed we can go with that stat. Basic stats 101.
Nice try hamas, what kinda parking lots do you think trumps gonna turn gaza into sweety?
Benzodiazeparty@reddit
are y’all downvoting me for wanting civilians to stop dying? isn’t that the objective or am i missing something?
Ropetrick6@reddit
You're being downvoted because you want to gate Israel no longer killing massive amounts of civilians behind the impossibility of a disjointed group with no firm leadership unilaterally surrendering.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
You’re being downvoted for all the insistence that the dead civilians are responsible for their own fate by not “giving back the hostages”
Kaymish_@reddit
You're being down voted for the victim blaming.
eran76@reddit
They can when they are combatants dressed in civilian clothing. They can when they are "civilians" holding hostages captive.
Have you ever heard the phrase: "surrendered to police." Surrender just means to give up and submit to authority. If Israel is the authority in Gaza, then the civilians can and should surrender to them, or they risk being shot. The intermingling of actual civilians and Hamas militants in civilian clothing is a form of perfidy which is itself a war crime. Israel has a duty not to kill actual civilians, but that doesn't mean civilians won't die, they do in every war, or that its not reasonable to kill civilians you mistake for combatants because the enemy in intentionally blurring the lines between themselves and the civilians.
Ropetrick6@reddit
The deliberate starvation of civilians isn't really helping on this front though...
Biosterous@reddit
How did that work out for the first Nations people of North America? How did it work out for the Boehrs? How did it work out for the Armenians? The Chinese citizens of Nanking?
There's more than enough history for Palestinians to know what's coming. Even if they surrender, they'll just be killed tomorrow instead of today.
If Western nations stood at all for the human rights they claim to, they'd actively be at war with Israel.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Who is there to even surrender? Hamas is not a nation state.
monkwren@reddit
And, as the IDF so proudly announces, their leadership has been decimated.
JosephScmith@reddit
Sure. Surrender sounds good to me.
Pklnt@reddit
Civilians don't have to surrender because they're not actively participating in the hostilities in the first place.
JosephScmith@reddit
Way to miss the point smarty pants
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
I think it’s interesting how readily people will claim that Palestinian civilian deaths are just anti-Israel propaganda, but never ask why Israel is playing right into it.
Israel is run by intelligent people. They could flood the Gaza Strip with aid, food, medical supplies etc and PREVENT civilian deaths.
But they don’t.
eran76@reddit
So long as Hamas controls the territory and people of Gaza, flooding it with aid will only strengthen Hamas. They will steal that aid, resell it to the civilians, and then use those proceeds to buy more weapons and materials to attack Israel with.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
Oh wow, you’re worried about Hamas profiting from reselling aid?
So, you should support Israel flooding the strip with aid, so its so abundant that it would be pointless for anyone to try selling it?
Thats the logical conclusion you should draw.
If you tell me you support food being scarce, and therefore incredibly valuable, then you either don’t understand economics or you don’t care if people starve, but either way you want to strengthen Hamas.
eran76@reddit
I don't think you understand how Hamas operates. They will kill their own people in order to take the aid away from them. Dolling out the aid is how the maintain control and how they earn income. The amount of aid is irrelevant if all of it will get confiscated. They would rather destroy the aid and create scarcity than lose their control.
During the early days of the war hospitals were screaming for more fuel to run generators. Hamas was sitting on hundreds of thousands of gallons in tanks near the Egyptian border. They wouldn't give any of it up for the hospitals because they needed it to run the air pumps for the tunnel network. The people who run Hamas have no compunction about killing their own citizens to maintain their power and to keep the fight with Israel going.
The current campaign in the north of Gaza will see all the civilians leave and anyone who remains with be killed. If those civilians did not get the message over the last 13 months, the lack of food will hopefully get them to move so that what remains of Hamas can finally be eliminated. When Hamas is gone, Israel will allow people back in after they have been checked for weapons. Then and only then can aid be flooded in.
SleepingScissors@reddit
So that they can make a profit selling it back to the people they just killed...who are all destitute refugees who don't have any money in the first place. I really don't think you've thought this propaganda through lol
eran76@reddit
It's about control. You kill a few people to make an example of them, then the rest fall in line for fear of death. This isn't that hard, you just have to think.
SleepingScissors@reddit
I think what's more likely is that you're pulling all of this out of your ass, you have no reason to believe that Hamas (which is just the name of the government of Gaza) is this hyper-evil cabal that feeds off the misery of their own neighbors, friends and family like some sort of cartoon villain.
I think the more likely explanation, which has loads more evidence, is that Israel is deliberately starving the Gaza strip to make life unbearable in an attempt to force people to flee so that they can settle the area. My evidence being, this is what they said they're going to do, and this is what they're actively doing.
eran76@reddit
You can believe what you want to believe, or your can listen to that well known pro-Israel interest group, Amnesty International:
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
And so your point is that Israel should starve 2 million Palestinians to death?
You’re incoherent.
eran76@reddit
Who said 2 million people? There are only a few tens of thousands of people left in the north of Gaza where this article is referencing aid not being delivered. The plan here is not to starve everyone in Gaza to death, if it were, Israel would prevented any aid from entering 13 months ago. No, the plan is to force all the civilians in the north out so that Israel can go house to house, tunnel to tunnel, and clear out all the Hamas combatants. Once the area is secured, then the people who are in the south and currently receiving aid will be allowed to return after being checked to confirm they're not armed militants.
You've got to think about this from the perspective of an army fighting an urban war. How do you remove a hostile force dressed as civilians conducting a guerrilla war while killing the fewest number of actual civilians? Not removing them is not an option, as October 7th and the promises to do it again have shown. The solution is to isolate and encircle the militants, then either kill them or force their surrender. This is complicated by the presence of the civilians who have refused to evacuate. Going house to house and asking them to move is going to result in unacceptable levels of risk and casualties for the IDF. So the alternative is to motivate them to move temporarily by cutting off the supply of aid. They don't need to starve, and the goal is not to have them starve or die at all, but they can no longer ignore the calls to evacuate and expect not to be killed if mistaken for combatants.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
This would be remotely believable if Israel were committed to ensuring the civilians that evacuate from north Gaza have access to housing, food, medicine and sanitation.
That isn’t happening.
Israel is not behaving like a nation fighting an urban war. It is behaving like a nation attempting to inflict as much suffering on civilians as possible while maintaining a PR campaign.
eran76@reddit
Dude, Israel it terrible at PR, have you not been paying attention? Israel is committed to ending Hamas while actively killing as few civilians as possible. Its a war that the Palestinians through their own elected government started and now they are living through the consequence of that. Israel owes the Palestinians in Gaza nothing if it means that more Israelis are going to die when Hamas attacks next. The goal of this war is end Hamas first, protect Israeli lives, and if possible, spare as many non-combatant Palestinians as possible. But let's not pretend that Israel owes these people shelter, a warm meal and a hospital bed when they started the war after electing into power Islamic militants that said this is exactly what they hope to do some day. The fucked around, and now they're finding out.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
There’s so much wrong with this comment that I could write an essay tearing it apart but instead I’ll say this:
You say Israel owes nothing to the Palestinians, but the fact is that Palestine is occupied and Israel is the occupying authority.
Quite literally, you are 100% completely and utterly, totally wrong. You could not be more wrong if you tried.
eran76@reddit
They were the occupying authority until 2005, when Israel withdrew and they elected Hamas. Since then it has been nothing but escalating attacks. The "authority" is Gaza on October 7th was Hamas, and until they are actually defeated it is not an occupation but a warzone.
Occupations start after wars. When the US dropped the bomb on Japan, it knowingly killed many civilians. After Japan surrendered, and the US occupied Japan, the responsibility to the civilians of Japan began. Gaza is no different. The war is still on going. The Palestinians' government, aka Hamas, has neither stopped fighting nor surrendered. So long as the fighting continues, it's a war and not an occupation and therefore Israel's primary responsibility is to defeat the enemy, not feed it. The civilians in the north of Gaza can choose to leave and live, or stay and die. It's that simple. Unlike the civilians of Hiroshima, at least they have the option to leave and they know the attack is coming.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Alright military genius. Instead of starving out the dug in defenders. You can go first into the booby trapped tunnel. And if you wouldn’t please for the love of god don’t suggest others to do it.
cultish_alibi@reddit
I feel like the pro-Israel people in this subreddit just make no effort for a remotely normal or sensible argument. Maybe it's just impossible to defend Israel's actions without being ludicrous.
Sushi_Explosions@reddit
Funny, because most other people feel the same about the pro-Hamas people like you.
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
Considering Netanyahu has repeatedly torpedoed ceasefire negotiations, including those that would satisfy Israel’s war aims of securing all hostages’ safe return, I’d say that you’re barking up the wrong tree.
The reality is that starving the strip has no military purpose. It doesn’t make Israel’s job safer or easier - all it does is multiply the suffering of Palestinian civilians.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Ceasefire is moronic.
Here’s the rhetoric from the pro Palestine side: pre oct 7 Gaza was an open air concentration camp and a blockade = occupation. And occupation justifies violent resistance.
So how does a ceasefire that leaves Hamas in charge and the blockade in place solve any of the above? You just want to stuff them back in the concentration camp so we can do this whole song and dance in another 5 years? Is that your plan?
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
As long as Israel refuses to allow any resolution to the Israel/palestine conflict, and refuses to partner with a Palestinian state, then the conflict is likely to be endless.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
I mean... you're right. As long as Israel wants to keep the Palestine question unanswered there's no real solution here besides occupation and violence. A ceasefire and the status quo will just breed more violence down the road.
You have any thoughts on that?
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
Well I hear Israel is planning on annexing area c of the West Bank now that trump won. Which is great news because those Palestinian citizens will be given Israeli citizenship and it will no longer be “apartheid”.
We’re probably better off with a 3 state solution at this point. I don’t see Israel giving up land to form a corridor between the remainder of West Bank and Gaza like they did in the 2005.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Except it isn't, as there's a war going on with terrorists who refuse to surrender. Whereas you ppl are fine with the genocidal attacks of 10/7 so look who's talking.
ItachiSan@reddit
Do you have to actively work to be this ignorant? Like, did it really take a long time to become this ridiculously ignorant, or does it just come natural?
No one is okay with any kind of attacks that results in the deaths of civilians(except Israel and the US obviously), but the Oct 7(one day) just literally is not comparable in any way shape or form to more than a year of active ethnic cleansing, forced mass displacement, murdering press, murdering aid workers and more.
To call the Oct 7 attack genocidal is actually batshit when the death toll of Palestinians on the low end was 120k, and that was the last I heard nearly a week ago.
To call you just disingenuous would be akin to saying that the worst part about Bibi is his ugly face.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
OK, let me explain again for all the brain dead hamas.
The Oct 7 attacks where a genocidal mass rapist attack by terrorists against civilians and children.
Everything after that is collateral damage in a war against terrorists who use human shields. So literally every dead kid is the fault of hamas who started the war, just like every dead japanese is the fault of Emperor Hirohito who bombed Pearl harbor.
Indiscriminantly killing everyone in your path like Oct 7th is absolutely genocidal.
If you disagree fine, sit back, relax and watch the great IDF dispence justice and see all that hamas land turned into Israeli parking lots. Good riddance :)
ItachiSan@reddit
Your entire comment is moot if you think that no one can defend innocent Palestinians without "being part of hamas"
You are so beyond pathetic that it would almost be admirable if it weren't so very sad.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Hey Hamas, what parking lot should we turn gaza into, walmart or home depot? I think my kids would love home depot :)
ItachiSan@reddit
Also running 2 accounts to run defense for a nation committing genocide makes it double pathetic.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
So why do you hamas cheer on genocide and mass rape? Why do you want to exterminate jews?
cultish_alibi@reddit
Huh weird how /u/AgileCaregiver7300 shows up to back /u/AgileBlackberry4636, both shilling the same ethnic cleansing supporting comments.
SleepingScissors@reddit
Crazy how both of them made their accounts 4 months ago too.
DonVergasPHD@reddit
Crazy how they are both European!
TraditionalGap1@reddit
What is or is not happening in Gaza has no bearing on wether or not what the other poster called for is ethnic cleansing and forced displacement
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Good thing it isn't anything close to ethnic cleansing then
Africanvar@reddit
Ok hasbara
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Thanks hamas
Otto_Von_Waffle@reddit
It's in north Gaza, there is no land border with anyone apart Isreal, as for south Gaza, Isreal has full controls of the Egyptian border, so if Isreal decided to cut the flow of aid there, they could.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Hey, I'm going to take your house and make you move one country over. You won't mind, right?
AgileBlackberry4636@reddit
Dude, it is the 4th country on my journey from the womb to the grave.
ctnoxin@reddit
Switching to your alt Reddit accounts doesn’t count as forcibly being expelled from your home land by Israelis
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
You’ve been forcibly moved from 3 countries so far?
Or you moved of your own volition.
Kind of a big difference!
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
I’m pretty sure that’s the reasoning behind the Indian Removal Act.
AgileBlackberry4636@reddit
Very bold to refer to genocide done by USA
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
As I’m sure you’re already aware, that’s exactly what Hitler said before he decided to start the holocaust.
Brambarian@reddit
"Well, if they don't want to get ethnically cleansed from gaza, why don't they just leave gaza?" -absolutely vile human being
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
Israel just needs more living space.
Airowird@reddit
Thought you were serious, before I realised it's a 'Lebensraum' reference.
TheDamDog@reddit
They called it the 'generals plan,' which feels pretty close to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost
...Which is, effectively, what their plan is, on a smaller scale. Force the population of Gaza into confined areas and starve them to death.
barc0debaby@reddit
Lebanonsraum
waiver@reddit
Two trucks with aid finally reached a school the last week, before the food could be distributed the IDF burned the school and the humanitarian aid.
Haaretz https://archive.is/65vIt
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Except your very own link says that dozens of terrorists were captured without a casualty, and the food was already distributed two days prior.
"...dozens of terrorists who were hiding in the building were arrested and transferred to Israel for interrogation. A fire broke out in the building while forces were working to clear the classrooms of weaponry. No casualties were reported. We emphasize that this operation did not interfere with humanitarian aid delivery to northern Gaza, which had been transferred two days prior to the operation and included hundreds of food packages and thousands of liters of water"
pornographic_realism@reddit
How does this version of events square with virtually no aid has been delivered? Smells like propaganda.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Basically quotes from both sides should be in the comments, not just anonymous ones saying food wasnt distributed
cultish_alibi@reddit
I wanted to write a sarcastic comment about it 'clearly being an act of self-defence' but there's really no leeway for sarcasm here. It's just war crimes.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Except that link quotes dozens of terrorists were captured without a casualty, and the food was already distributed two days prior.
"...dozens of terrorists who were hiding in the building were arrested and transferred to Israel for interrogation. A fire broke out in the building while forces were working to clear the classrooms of weaponry. No casualties were reported. We emphasize that this operation did not interfere with humanitarian aid delivery to northern Gaza, which had been transferred two days prior to the operation and included hundreds of food packages and thousands of liters of water"
waiver@reddit
Ohh, and I didn't tell you when they shot a kid and when the family went to bury him they shot the whole family even though they were waving a white flag , and instead of burying the bodies they bulldozed them into a pile of garbage.
roydez@reddit
Source: https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/middleeast/100000009614868/israel-gaza-war-family-killed.html
alwaysiamdead@reddit
Yep. It was bait.
HydrostaticTrans@reddit
That’s not a war crime though.
BustaSyllables@reddit
It’s insane how we can constantly hear the same thing every day for the last year but we literally never see any of the consequences you would expect if this was actually a genocide or ethnic cleansing
Russel_Jimmies95@reddit
Just because you’re burying your head in the sand, doesn’t mean it’s not happening. Every human rights organization is screaming right now. The death from this will span decades. You can’t count the dead under the rubble yet, you can’t count how many people will die from cancer because of all the bombs poisoning the groundwater and dust from the buildings, you can’t count how many will die due to infrastructure that will take a century to rebuild, on and on…
BustaSyllables@reddit
Do you believe that Israel’s goal is to eliminate all of the Palestinians in Gaza
TraditionalGap1@reddit
If by 'eliminate' you mean displace, then yes. They would absolutely love for the Palestinian problem to go away.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Displacement is explicitly excluded from the legal definition of genocide. You don’t believe a genocide is taking place or that Israel desires to commit genocide
Russel_Jimmies95@reddit
If you prefer, we can use the term “Ethnic Cleansing” which does include forcible transfer, though it doesn’t really matter. The Israeli argument of Genocide semantics is dishonest, lazy, and stupid.
BustaSyllables@reddit
So you agree that it doesn’t fit the definition for genocide then? How is it a semantic argument when South Africa has levied a case against them for the crime of genocide
Killeroftanks@reddit
it doesnt fit the legal definition, but thats solely because it was written to hit the germans and only the germans, because you know every major european power was doing or has done some kind of genocide around the 1940s. and they rather not be hit with the same law they just wrote up.
also its a semantic argument because israel very much relies on the fact they arent lining everyone up and killing them. theyre just shoving them in a hole and accidently drop a bomb on said hole. theyre effectively the same thing but legally speaking, you can defend the second one with accidently fire, and as such not the same as the first. even though it gets you the same results.
Yeahhh_Nahhhhh@reddit
Bingo. If the official definition the UN uses was less precise most western countries would have things to answer to.
Kharenis@reddit
Phenergan_boy@reddit
It's not worth your time playing legal semantics with these people, their cognitive dissonance is too much to admit that there is an active ongoing genocide against Palestinians.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
Yes whether something does or does not meet the definition of genocide is semantics. Important semantics
JMoc1@reddit
https://www.ushmm.org/genocide-prevention/blog/experiencing-forced-displacement-cambodia
BustaSyllables@reddit
Are you suggesting the Israelis will attempt to genocide the Palestinians after they kick them out of Gaza
JMoc1@reddit
The forced displacement and removal of Palestinians from their homes is going on now in both Gaza and the West Bank. The forced displacement is happening now, the genocide is happening now.
What I’m disproving is your believe that forced displacement and genocide are completely disconnected; which the Holocaust Museum tells us is not true.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Sure but displacement still isn’t genocide. Genocide is genocide.
JMoc1@reddit
Forced Displacement and forced evictions can cause serious mental harm and bodily harm to individuals being forced to leave their home. The Nakab is considered a genocide specifically because of this.
As well as the previous point; forced displacement is also about causing conditions that would seek to impact the lives of Palestinians.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Yet none of this amounts to the attempted destruction of a group.
If I take your definition the displacement and year long torment the Israelis in the north experienced would qualify as genocide, and October 7th would also be genocide.
JMoc1@reddit
Based on what evidence? Because we have evidence from Netanyahu’s government that they want to get rid of the Palestinian people.
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/
So do you have evidence that this isn’t a genocide?
BustaSyllables@reddit
Can’t prove a negative
JMoc1@reddit
I’m not asking you to prove a negative; I’m asking you what evidence you have that makes you arrive at the conclusion that this isn’t genocide in the face of Netanyahu’s own comments designed to appeal to Israel’s far-right and fascists parties.
What more evidence do you need in order to decide that this is genocide?
Yeahhh_Nahhhhh@reddit
Do you believe in cultural genocide? It was coined at the same time FYI
TraditionalGap1@reddit
What do you want, an attaboy for not actively trying to kill all of the Palestinians?
Fine, good job, congratulations, you cleared the lowest fucking bar. You aren't as bad as the Nazis. Whoopty doo
Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit
Yes, i believe Israel wants to destroy Palestinians in Gaza.
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Killing members of the group;
Israel killed at least around 44,000 Gazans.
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
There are tens of thousands seriously wounded Gazans who lost a limb, became paralyzed, blind etc.
The repeated forcible transfer of Gazans in response to Israeli evacuation orders caused Gazans serious mental harm.
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Israel is systematically targeting hospitals and medical personnel in Gaza according to a recent UN report.
Israel is limiting or preventing the entry of food, drugs, cleaning items etc to Gaza.
People in north Gaza have resorted to eating wild herbs, animal feed etc
Patients with chronic illnesses can't get their drugs.
Women and children undergo c section and amputation surgeries respectively without anesthesia.
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Israel sysyemstically target hospitals and pregnant women are denied access to drugs, food and medical care as a result of Israel siege.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Given all the evidence you’ve presented of genocide, at what point do you estimate that the destruction of the approximately 2 million people living in Gaza will be complete
Pizzaflyinggirl2@reddit
How is this relevant?
BustaSyllables@reddit
Yes, i believe Israel wants to destroy Palestinians in Gaza.
Look at the first line of your response to me lol
Ropetrick6@reddit
So it's not a genocide if it's not completed? Well, I guess the Nazis weren't genocidal then!
BustaSyllables@reddit
What was the intent of the nazis
Ropetrick6@reddit
To remove the Jews from Germany, much like how Israel's intent is to remove Palestinians from Palestine.
roydez@reddit
They don't need that exact goal for it constitute a genocide. Even if they're doing it to dwindle the population and destroy their livelihood for the forseeable future it would still constitute a genocide.
BustaSyllables@reddit
It would be difficult to prove that the objective is genocide without proving that they were looking to kill all the Palestinians in Gaza. Saying that their actions are genocide because they’re just mean and hate the Palestinians but they can’t kill all of them isn’t a convincing argument.
The population of Gaza will continue to rise. They are not under threat of being destroyed
roydez@reddit
Let's say for argument's sake the goal is to halve the population in Gaza would that constitute a genocide by your book? I'd like to know your answer before I proceed in what might be a pointless discussion.
BustaSyllables@reddit
If you could demonstrate that their plan was to halve the population, and there was a clear implementation of that plan to achieve their goal, then yea I would say it’s genocide
roydez@reddit
Ok, and if Putin wakes up tomorrow and says that he's gonna rain hell on Ukraine and that he will attack everywhere with full power and then start an indiscriminate whole-sale bombing of Ukraine in which over 80% of Ukraine is flattened and 2 million Ukrainians die(5% of the population) would you say that is a genocide?
BustaSyllables@reddit
If we can demonstrate that it was his goal to eliminate in whole or in part any amount of the Ukrainian population, and he executed that plan with the intent of doing so, then yea I would say it’s genocide
roydez@reddit
If he says that he's going to attack everywhere with full power and that he's looking for maximal damage and not accuracy and that Ukraine will only be tents. And that not a single drop of water will enter till they leave the world. And that Ukrainians are human animals that will have no food and water and electricity and that it's the entire Ukrainian nation that is responsible and there's no such thing as Ukrainian civilians being uninvolved and unaware. And that the Ukrainians are the people of darkness and evil. And also says that he ordered to removed all restraints and that he will eliminate everything.
Would you say that demonstrates intent?
BustaSyllables@reddit
Oh yea absolutely that would be a genocide
roydez@reddit
Yeah well, all those statements were said by either war cabinet members, Prime Minister and the IDF spokesperson.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Do you believe that no food or water has gotten into Gaza for the last year
I’m familiar with literally all the things you mentioned. It just doesn’t mean much or reflect reality
roydez@reddit
Israel has been blocking aid and vandalizing aid all year. Some Likud Minister even went to vandalize aid trucks as a political advert. Yes, a very minimal amount of aid goes through mainly because the US is interested in maintaining a certain facade. That doesn't change the fact that they are deliberately and intentionally starving people.
BustaSyllables@reddit
People like you have been saying this for the past year and have nothing meaningful to show for it. I’m not sure why you think we should believe you at this point. At a certain point the lying stops working and nobody takes any of these claims seriously.
roydez@reddit
Some people think children starving to death is bad others do not. Those who do not are generally called Zionists. [Hell they even celebrate it] (https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/maccabi-fans-filmed-chanting-racist-slogans-against-arabs-upon-arrival-at-ben-gurion-from-amsterdam/). Enjoy your Zionist tag and block.
BustaSyllables@reddit
I’m sorry, is your evidence of mass starvation a paywalled article about 1 person and a clip of some soccer fans acting like assholes?
roydez@reddit
https://www.ft.com/content/99488ed6-e3e3-4d07-9316-e236b3640ddc#
Let's not pretend you care about facts.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Oh look another article from another random source that says that starvation is IMMINENT!
Keep crying wolf
roydez@reddit
"The international agency for measuring food security is unreliable when it comes to measuring food security."
BustaSyllables@reddit
If they’ve been saying that a famine is imminent this whole time then absolutely
roydez@reddit
You know who's the most reliable source? Reddit user BustaSyllables. He's smarter than all the experts.
BustaSyllables@reddit
I’m glad that you think I’m smart but you should really consider starting to think for yourself
roydez@reddit
I promise I will but since you're so smart and this is important to get right I want you to help me with one last thing. How do we define famine and starvation?
BustaSyllables@reddit
Nah, I’ve answered enough of your questions I have one for you now.
If you think that Israel is trying to murder as many Palestinians as they can get away with do you believe that Palestinians should be given an opportunity to leave if they wish to do so?
roydez@reddit
That's pretty good phrasing by you actually. Whether they get away with it or not only time will tell.
I'm not into infringing people's right to choose their own future. If someone makes a choice that life in Gaza became too harsh for him and he wants to leave that's completely within his right. Though it would be hard for me to not view his departure as a result of ethnic cleansing by Israel.
It's worth mentioning though that there are people who would also make the choice to stay and at the end that's also within their right. They don't have to succumb to this paradigm of "eternal oppression or leave." It shouldn't be a crime to be born Palestinian in Gaza.
Personally, I'm a Palestinian born in a mixed city in Israel. My friend group is half very leftist Jews and half Palestinians. It's possible and inevitable to co-exist. No one is going to magically vanish.
How you get there however is a giant cluster-fuck because settlements have been placed in the worst(or best depending on how you look at it) positions to prevent a Palestinian state. Gaza and WB are not even connected by land. I'm personally a proponent of a one-state solution but Israelis are very paranoid about having their "Jewish majority" even the very leftist ones. And Zionists care deeply about the Jewishness of the state.
I'm personally a proponent of everyone should be equal citizens and get over the tribalism(or at least stop killing each other about it) and the party I voted for(very hated in Israel Arab one) is an advocate for that. They recently tried to suggest a bill to "Define Israel as State for All Its Citizens" but that was immediately banned from even reaching the Knesset lol. Outside intervention is definitely needed IMO.
Russel_Jimmies95@reddit
Yes
BustaSyllables@reddit
Then you’re not living in reality
ChaosDancer@reddit
No, but the government of Israel saw the opportunity to flip over the board after they were attacked, similar situation with 9/11.
If they make it miserable enough through starvation and random killing the Palestinians will be forced in two choices:
BustaSyllables@reddit
You could say this about most wars
ChaosDancer@reddit
I expected this behaviour from Russia, Iran, US and China. I did not expected this behaviour from Israel a country that was the victim of said actions in the past.
The_Bear_Jew@reddit
Isreal was never a "victim" of the consequences of committing decades of terrorist attacks on a neighboring country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
https://www.dni.gov/nctc/ftos/hamas_fto.html
RockstepGuy@reddit
Kinda impressive to be blaming Israel for deaths decades in the future, in no other case have we humans applied such a thing to any other nation on earth.
Yeahhh_Nahhhhh@reddit
Inaction to climate change is often argued has contributing to deaths in the future. The same with health inaction. Colonisation and its continued affects are also argued to contribute to future deaths.
Russel_Jimmies95@reddit
Ah I see the problem here. I assumed you could use logical deduction. Here is an article to elucidate.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-gaza-reconstruction-un-0ac47ddba7401e102b2bb95e85f3e105
waiver@reddit
Dude, there are literally Israeli Bulldozer drivers whining about having to run over hundreds of Palestinians, including some alive.
Sushi_Explosions@reddit
lol no
waiver@reddit
lol yes
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/21/middleeast/gaza-war-israeli-soldiers-ptsd-suicide-intl/index.html
Sushi_Explosions@reddit
Read your own source. Or don't because you care more about your whining than about facts. I am done wasting my time with you.
roydez@reddit
Yeah he claims he "ran over hundreds of terrorists." Also, “So, there is no such thing as citizens,” he said, referring to the ability of Hamas fighters to blend with civilians. “This is terrorism.”
Ropetrick6@reddit
The source literally says what you're denying happens...
BustaSyllables@reddit
Im not sure why you think an anecdote qualifies as evidence of a top down plan being executed by the israeli government to exterminate the Palestinians living in Gaza
waiver@reddit
Well, for starters you didn't ask for that, you said you haven't seen any of the consequences.
I would say the plan to starve Palestinians and the destruction of healthcare coupled with the intentional destruction of Palestinian infrastructure shows a top down plan to genocide Palestinians, that is their intent to destroy, in whole or in part an ethnic group. But there are better comments elsewhere in the thread that matched the IDF actions to the Genocide convention.
Sonofaconspiracy@reddit
Because Israel are protected by the greatest power in the world and leader of the west
Stubbs94@reddit
There are no independent observers within Gaza because Israel won't allow them in. The consequences are there, the world just can't see it yet.
BustaSyllables@reddit
What consequences
Stubbs94@reddit
The hundreds of thousands of people who have actually been killed, or will succumb to disease due to malnutrition. The entire world isn't lying about what Israel is doing to Palestinians.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Even Hamas isn’t saying hundreds of thousands.
If you’re not going to use the numbers of Hamas , the UN or Israel, what random source are you getting this from?
The fact that you have to make shit up is evidence that even you believe there isn’t really a genocide
tiddernitram@reddit
During any genocide, it’s hard to know exactly the number of dead. This is especially true given Israel’s targeting of healthcare workers and infrastructure.
For example, even the 17 million number often quoted for the holocaust is an estimate as we have no way of knowing how many were actually killed.
That’s why if we want to be more accurate then we should look at the estimates coming out of academia
BustaSyllables@reddit
Not a very convincing argument
JMoc1@reddit
Wow, Holocaust denial; didn’t expect that.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Lol keep reaching
JMoc1@reddit
It’s your comments, man. No wonder you needed to mass delete your previous comments with redact.
BustaSyllables@reddit
Yea after the election I was considering deleting everything because it’s pointless engaging with smug idiots online. I couldn’t help myself today though
JMoc1@reddit
You couldn’t help yourself in engaging in Holocaust denial. Jesus dude…
BustaSyllables@reddit
Not sure what part of the holocaust you think I’m denying. I don’t like antisemitism that’s why I support Israel
JMoc1@reddit
Holocaust denialism and now support for antisemitism. What else are your deleted comments hiding?
BustaSyllables@reddit
Hey do you acknowledge that the Palestinian leader, Amin Al Husseini, was an ally of Hitler and broadcasted nazi propaganda to the Muslim world
Stubbs94@reddit
https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/usa-letter-oct-2-2024 this was from October. The Lancet article (which estimates a higher amount) also goes into detail on why the death toll is a massive undercount. Regardless, even if it was "just" 45,000 dead people with 70% being women and children it would still be a genocide.
km3r@reddit
59% women, children, and elderly. Not 70%.
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/reported-impact-snapshot-gaza-strip-19-november-2024
IllCallHimPichael@reddit
This wasn’t a peer reviewed entry into the Lancet journal. It was part of the correspondence section and is not held to the editorial/academic standards of the Lancet journal. It’s analogous to a letter to the editor. The authors could have said almost anything in this article and it would have been published as so in the correspondence section. This article is not based in facts from the ground, they’re pulling estimates from nowhere.
Stubbs94@reddit
I love how you all focus on me mentioning the Lancet article.... And not the open letter I provided from doctors who worked inside Gaza.
IllCallHimPichael@reddit
Because your point was that hundreds of thousands have been killed and your source was the Lancet. While the letter is incredible sad and awful to read, it’s not supporting the point that you’re making. If your point was that war is awful and the human suffering isn’t worth it then yeah I’d reference the letter but that wasn’t your point.
Zipz@reddit
You should really read what you post
The lancet is not saying the death toll is 186k. The lancet made up an estimate based on other wars(not this one) what the death toll would be years down the line. Not currently.
At least know what you are pretending to quote. It’s a very short report you should read it.
Stubbs94@reddit
"It is likely that the death toll from this conflict is already greater than 118,908, an astonishing 5.4% of Gaza’s population."
Zipz@reddit
Ok let me help you out
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
“Armed conflicts have indirect health implications beyond the direct harm from violence. Even if the conflict ends immediately, The total death toll is expected to be large given the intensity of this conflict; destroyed health-care infrastructure; severe shortages of food, water, and shelter; the population’s inability to flee to safe places; and the loss of funding to UNRWA, one of the very few humanitarian organisations still active in the Gaza Strip.8 In recent conflicts, such indirect deaths range from three to 15 times the number of direct deaths. Applying a conservative estimate of four indirect deaths per one direct death9 to the 37 396 deaths reported, it is not implausible to estimate that up to 186 000 or even more deaths could be attributable to the current conflict in Gaza.”
It’s not the current death toll and it’s based on a random multiplier of 4 that comes not even from this war.
Stubbs94@reddit
I didn't send you the Lancet article.... I used the letter from healthcare workers coming back from Gaza that was sent to Biden
Zipz@reddit
Cool so no complaints on the lancet article. I’m glad we could get that straight
Now to your healthcare worker article. It uses IPC estimations that aren’t from this war. Let alone if they were right we would know about the 60k Palestinian that died from starvation. There would be bodies everywhere.
Killeroftanks@reddit
i mean the world knew of the german genocide for years and did fuck all about it.
it wasnt until 1944 that the allies actually thought of putting a plan in place. mainly because word got out and they really needed to put a cap on this situation before it spills and the people of the world realize their own governments arent much better than the nazis. hence why the genocide requirements are so fucking weird. it was written in such a way where only the germans/nazi party could be charged with the crime and not the other european powers.
HummusSwipper@reddit
The post is deeply misleading, especially the use of "virtually" which is purposely meant to keep the accusation vague. This, coupled with the article stating "But data from the Israeli military body responsible for humanitarian affairs in Gaza, Cogat, said 472 aid lorries had entered northern Gaza via the Erez West crossing as of 17 November, without specifying whether any of that aid was allowed into the besieged areas." makes me wonder if this is just a purposely misleading article.
Hey remember when the IDF evacuated parts of Northern Gaza to minimize civilian casualties in the upcoming battles? Yet everyone here conveniently forgets this fact when the area turns into a battlefield and aid isn't entering it.
No surprise this post is getting so much traction though, the pro pally bots feverishly upvote anything that can boost anti-Israel sentiment, even if it's bad clickbait articles that don't actually say anything.
TheJacques@reddit
The UN has the most the loose in Gaza, that gravy train of money money money is going to end and but they'll put up a fight. The last people on Earth who want to the Palestinians to thrive is the UN, Hamas, and Fatah because they are have no place, no employment in a thriving Palestinian state.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Ah yes, the UN distributing food are the bad ones, not the government calling Palestinians animals, saying all Palestinians deserve to be killed, advocating genocide and actively ethnically cleansing the region.
Israel is going the way of 1930s Germany and is going to get more and more genocidal as time goes on, and people will fully support it just like there were those in the 30s that supported Germany's treatment of Jews.
Tripwir62@reddit
The famine that's been coming for year, and certain to kill tens of thousands of people, is probably, finally, here. Right now. I mean, this is it. You'd have to be nuts not to take this seriously.
dannywild@reddit
Ok well now you know it’s serious. Doctors in Gaza are describing the situation as “catastrophic”, which they haven’t done ever before.
roydez@reddit
Not just Doctors in Gaza but the IPC as well. https://www.ft.com/content/99488ed6-e3e3-4d07-9316-e236b3640ddc#
dannywild@reddit
That is serious. The IPC has predicted 7 out of the last 0 famines in Gaza.
roydez@reddit
Hundreds of thousands of kids are malnourished with permanent healthcare consequences and there are dozens of documented child death from starvation but that's boring. I personally need 10k kids to drop dead daily from starvation to feel like there's a famine. All these International Agencies that measure calories and nutrients intakes are boring.
lennoco@reddit
I’ve been seeing this described as catastrophic famine for nearly a year at this point.
dannywild@reddit
Yeah I was being sarcastic.
lennoco@reddit
Ah gotcha
mnmkdc@reddit
There was famine reported in Gaza months ago. The IPC report found that a large chunk of Gazans were experiencing famine. It has continued to get worse in the north, but famine is not new there
Tripwir62@reddit
Dude. If anyone starved to death, Hamas would have 1000 videos posted in ten minutes.
mnmkdc@reddit
I’ll repeat that the IPC reported that hundreds of thousands of Gazans were in conditions that met the requirements to be called “famine” by the IPC months ago. I understand this goes against your opinion, but your opinion does not matter.
This article that you’re commenting on states that 17 kids came to the hospital with signs of malnutrition between last Tuesday and Sunday. It also states a man died of dehydration. What you should realize is that stories like this actually don’t get waved in front of your face like you would like to believe. Palestinians have never been treated fairly by the media. The health services, who do much of the counting of the dead, are barely operational. It is entirely delusional at this point to believe that the death count is anything but a large underestimate especially based on accounts from foreign doctors working there.
Tripwir62@reddit
I myself try to look at the data -- mostly the data produced by the Hamas Health Ministry. June '24, the Gaza death toll was 37,000. Now, five months later it's 45,000. Help me out. Am I denying genocide, the famine, or both in my ignorance.
travistravis@reddit
When Israel has bombed all the central record locations and all the hospitals, it makes it quite difficult to keep accurate count of confirmed deaths.
Tripwir62@reddit
Agree. And given the absence of any evidence everyone should assume that Israel killed 10,000 children.
mnmkdc@reddit
You are denying what was reported to be a famine. The point I just made to you though is that the Gaza Ministry of Health’s numbers are likely underestimates due to the main ways of counting the death toll being damaged. This is consistent with other large scale urban combat situations where the reported death toll during the conflict is generally far lower than the actual. We also have reports from dozens of foreign doctors working in Gaza suggesting that the number is a massive underestimate.
Early in the conflict, while some media was reporting that the numbers were “impossible” or “exaggerated”, studies were done indicating that either the numbers are being underestimated, or UN staff started being killed at a disproportionately high rate as Gaza started being more and more destroyed. As the war has continued and the vast majority of building and infrastructure has been destroyed, the ability to fully count has gotten worse.
Tripwir62@reddit
Two questions.
1) Honestly, for how many months have you yourself been talking about a "famine" likely to kill "hundreds of thousands." This story has been around for nearly a year.
2) Don't you think it kind of defies credulity for you to suggest that the group with the most incentive on earth to over-report casualties, the group that won't even distinguish between civilians and militants, is actually underestimating the count?
mnmkdc@reddit
How many times must it be repeated that famine was confirmed months ago? The condition of Gaza’s aid is not just a straight line. Israel reduces aid until international uproar happens, they they increase it again, then the cycle repeats while they’re supporters claim people were just exaggerating. How many months have YOU being doing this?
No, the health ministry has been consistently reliable in past conflicts. This time around infrastructure has been almost entirely destroyed, so they’re logically going to have trouble counting fully. This is consistent with other large scale urban combat scenarios as I explained in my last comment.
Do you have a purpose for this willful ignorance? What benefit do you get from denying the words of all the experts studying this?
Tripwir62@reddit
I'm not denying the words of anyone. I'm questioning the accuracy of those words based on data published by the group most likely to concur with those experts. Indeed, thanks for the link, the article you forwarded is an argument weighing towards the VALIDITY of MoH numbers. The paragraph you quote is used in support of the headline thesis that the MoH numbers are largely correct. Can't you be self aware that the numbers simply do not support the hysterical calls of famine that we've been hearing (and you've been repeating) for nearly a year?
Truth is you're not. You need to find an atrocity now that "genocide" is becoming sillier and sillier, and by god you'll have one.
mnmkdc@reddit
Do you feel the same way with Israel’s numbers of 10/7? They have every reason to lie. Why do you still trust them?
The calls of famine were “hysterical” because famine was confirmed. Famine is extremely serious. You just didn’t take it seriously because the victims aren’t worthy in your eyes.
The articles I linked say that they’re not overestimates and both imply that they’re almost certainly overestimates.
Youre acting like these ideas come strictly from Hamas. They don’t. There are people there including foreign aid workers who have been saying this for months. We can see footage of Gaza and we know things from similar situations from the past.
I have never used the word genocide to describe this. I feel the claim should be taken seriously with Israel’s history and what we know for sure about the situation, but I am hesitant to describe it that way. I’ll say there was a famine and Israel is an apartheid because those are objective. I don’t want to use the word genocide until we have more info which likely won’t be until after the invasion. However, if the General’s Plan is confirmed then it will, objectively, be a genocide and that is looking very possible.
Tripwir62@reddit
I said I was using (and thereby trusting) Hamas numbers. Similarly, I trust Israel's numbers. (And there's also the fact that we know the names of all the dead, have access to their photos, and the fact that they've been buried in Israel.) But you feel free to conflate the two.
Also, make sure that you continue to be cringely un-self aware that you yourself have been crying famine for months. Now that the projected casualties of such a famine have not come, you now resort to eager hopefulness that the MoH numbers are low. Only a real scholar would link an academic article entitled "No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health” to actually mean that there was under-reporting. The article is intended to defeat accusations of over-reporting. If there was a shred of evidence for under-reporting, it would have warranted its own study, and its own article. But unlike some, the Lancet actually applies standards to what it reports.
mnmkdc@reddit
The difference here is that the infrastructure to get full counts no longer exists as explained in the link I sent. They’re limited in what they can count.
Are you denying that a famine was confirmed or not? If you agree that the IPC reported a famine, then why are you not “crying famine?” Do these lives really mean nothing to you?
Both of the studies indicate underreported casualties. I’m not sure if you actually read them or just the paragraph I linked, but you’re confusing the goal of the study and what the data actually showed.
Here’s a direct quote from the 2nd study I linked, so I appreciate that you essentially have admitted that you are arguing in bad faith.
Tripwir62@reddit
You posted an article from JULY that suggested the possibility that 10,000 bodies may be beneath bomb rubble. This conversation is about "famine" -- something that started to be talked about in the summer.
The reason why famine is of interest is because when people don't have access to food they die. Reports of famine have been ever-present for months on end. Yet, according to the very same sources you link, deaths in Gaza are down substantially since summer (as I quoted in my first comment).
No one would care about famine if they didn't think it harmed people. So far, lots of people are yelling about famine, and I of course have little doubt that foodstuffs in a war zone are difficult to access. However, I have seen no data to suggest material Gazan deaths related to food shortages. And I assume if you had any you would have linked it. It is the very absence of such data that causes you (in a pretty callous way) to work so hard to buttress your argument with eager grasping at any idea of additional death. Are the famine victims crawling beneath the rubble?
mnmkdc@reddit
I posted an article explaining how the total reported deaths is not an overestimate and in all likelihood is actually an underestimate. It wasn’t just about bomb rubble. If you finished reading the quote, you’d notice that they commonly found confirmed identified deaths that were not included in the health ministry’s count. That means they are incomplete counts, and this does not only apply to bodies under rubble.
This is the famine info. Hundreds of thousands of people are under IPC phase 5, and the full report which you can find on their website does into further details if you’d like. I explained to you already that 1. death totals are likely underestimates that have become less complete as Gaza has been destroyed and 2. the aid reaching Gaza is not consistent. What has happened on a continuous cycle is that conditions approach famine/famine begins, there is international uproar (“crying famine” in your terms) at Israel for blocking aid, Israel increases aid temporarily alleviating the issue. Throughout this whole cycle, people who are not informed on the topic, like you, get upset at those who are pressuring Israel to do something before many people die.
You can look at photos of multiple children who starved to death in Gaza if you’d like. I’ve seen them and you can too if you spend a couple seconds on google. That’s not something I want to see again, so you can google that one yourself if that’s the evidence you need. Otherwise, there have been plenty of reported deaths by malnutrition and dehydration in Gaza. There is going to be a lack of complete reporting on this though because currently the hospitals are basically non functional in the north. I’m unsure why this is not common sense to you. The majority of buildings in Gaza are leveled. It would be irrational to expect that a full death count could be made.
Unsurprising that you wouldn’t admit you were wrong though. You have your mind made up and you’ll find ways to deny things even when it’s right in front of your face. My only question is why? Why are you so set on defending a country that runs an apartheid regime in the West Bank? Your default position should be that they’re probably not treating Gazans properly and yet, even with studies in front of you, youre closing your eyes and plugging your ears. Why do you only seem to be critical of those suffering?
Stubbs94@reddit
*confirmed death toll, Israel has destroyed the majority of hospitals and medical centres in Gaza so the official death toll isn't accurate yet. The death toll you're quoting from the Gazan health ministry (I know you're trying to call them terrorists) is from people they can confirm have died.
KeithGribblesheimer@reddit
They post pictures of children who died elsewhere and claim they were in Gaza.
Rashida Tlaib appeared in congress with a photo of an emaciated child that was caused by a medical condition...and happened in Syria.
roydez@reddit
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/09/world/middleeast/yazan-kafarneh-gaza-starvation.html
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7mp01ygi1q/
Is this in Syria?
roydez@reddit
Bruh there's endless videos of malnourished children from Gaza. Are you kidding?
cookingandmusic@reddit
Yes definitely this time. For sure. Yes. I’m super cereal. Gonna be famine. Just you wait. For sure.
Hoeax@reddit
Surely the consequences Secretary Blinken warned about are soon to come...
So so horrible to watch. Never again meant bupkis apparently.
character limit character schmimit
Phenergan_boy@reddit
Blinken is a Zionist. Neither this administration or the next one will do anything to prevent the ongoing ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
This is ethnic cleansing. Full stop. Textbook definition. No room for dispute.
Starving out civilians to force them from their land, which they will not be allowed to return to.
Sensitive-Mountain99@reddit
What happened to the 90 some odd aid trucks that was supposedly stolen from Gaza? Not as a dig or anything but genuinely serious.
Brumbulli@reddit
This title is misleading. The article is quoting mostly IDF and alternating between IDF talking points about terrorists and UN talking about hunger and murder. Should be some new BBC LLM writing model. "Hundreds of people .. killed" ... "Thousands?"
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