The Meetings have Taken Over
Posted by mangeek@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 47 comments
Greetings. This is gonna be sort of a rant. I'm in public sector/non-profit type industry.
In the last five years, the nature of my work has changed from having 32+ hours of time a week to do 'actual work' to maybe being able to squeeze 3-5 hours in per week, as long as nothing reactive happens. I have so many meetings, and the organization has no tooling to organize 'work' across teams, so everything we want to do creates meetings on top of that. Each team is sort of doing their own thing re: chat, how tasks are recorded or prioritized; even how systems are operated. Management makes us estimate time on projects before approving them, but they don't actually count those hours up and budget them into what we have available, nor do they budget in the 'overhead' the weekly project meetings will incur.
I basically careen from meeting to meeting, adding things to my team's Jira, but there's no space on the calendar for us to get them done, we are currently 'ghosting' on about 60% of the stuff that comes our way. I'm being asked to 'do work', 'delegate', 'communicate more', 'bring people together', and 'engage vendors' all at once, but even when I put in 12 hour days, I can't keep up; I sort of have to 'pick one'. Delegating seems to help a little bit, but *I can't just create five new people to throw at this overhead, I want the overhead to go away so me and my team can do what we signed up for* instead of 'attend meetings' and 'project manage' ourselves into oblivion.
I'm starting to experience real physical and mental problems because of this. I had to drop hobbies and exercise. I have work nightmares. I've developed a few conditions that are obviously stress-related. Family, friends, and even my boss are asking me if I'm 'OK', but nobody seems to have any sort of solution to this that doesn't involve boxing work time in to the 40 hours... which will torpedo my own job because it will look like I literally 'do nothing'/'don't respond' even though I am doing my best in the the time I'm being paid for.
It feels like these are problems for upper management. Has anyone had luck communicating this up to the top levels? Has anyone else worked at an organization with problems like this and seen major reforms succeed? Care to share how you got from where you were to where you are now?
Kathryn_Cadbury@reddit
I've just heard today from my boss that our new director thinks we have too many meetings (meetings about meetings) and we could be getting more done and has already cut a weekly heads meet to fortnightly under review.
Absolute music to me at least, but I imagine not to one of my colleagues that has scheduled a bunch of wishy-washy YT type training 'videos/courses' for 14 of them at around 4/5 courses per day for all of this week *sigh*
Obvious-Water569@reddit
Do you have the autonomy to decide which meetings you attend or are they all mandatory?
If I found myself in your situation I'd be going through my calendar and declining all but the vital meetings to give myself some breathing room.
When asked about it I'd simply say the excessive meetings have made it so I can no longer do my day-to-day work.
MrCertainly@reddit
Here's something I've said elsewhere, but it applies here as well, since it focuses on the attitude one must have when laboring in a late-stage American Capitalist hellscape.
The owners and their ~~bootlicking sycophants~~ corporate turdwookies do not care about you. At all.
Neither does your government or courts, as they've been bought & paid for by said owners.
They also own social networks & (m)ass media, using them as their personal propaganda mouthpiece.
Your job search is never over. In AWA: At-Will America (99.7% of the population), you can be terminated at any time, for almost any (or no) reason, without notice, without compensation, and full loss of healthcare.
Your goal is to be the CEO of your life.
Your only obligation is to yourself and your loved ones, like a CEO.
Your mission is to extract as much value from these soulless megacorps as you can, like a CEO.
Milk the fuckers until sand squirts out of their chafed nips.....like a CEO.
Professional Integrity of a CEO
Do not worry about results -- "good enough" is truly good enough.
Treat your jobs as cattle, not as pets.
Work your wage. Going above and beyond is only rewarded with more work. Your name isn't above the door. You don't own the company. So stop caring as if you did own the place.
Don't work for free or do additional tasks outside of your role, as that devalues the concept of labor.
Maximize revenue at all times - pump n' dump is a valid Wall Street strategy, so why shouldn't it be your strategy too? You're the sole shareholder of your life.
Remember, there will always be work left undone. If there wasn't, then you're overstaffed and will soon be laid off. So always leave work undone.
Self-Care of a CEO
Sleep well, never skip lunch, get enough physical activity.
Avoid drinking coffee at work for your employer's benefit, as they don't deserve your caffeinated, productivity-drugged self.
Avoid alcohol and other vices, as they steal all the happiness from tomorrow for a brief amount today. Especially when used as coping mechanisms for work-related stress.
Executive Authority of a CEO
Knowledge is power. Discussing your compensation with your fellow worker is a federally protected right (for now). Employers hate transparency, as it means they can't pull their bullshit on others without consequence.
Your first job is being an actor. Endeavor to be pleasant & kind....yet unremarkable, bland, forgettable, and mediocre. Though it may feed one's ego, being a superhero or rockstar isn't suited for this hellscape. Projecting strength invites challenge. Instead, cultivate a personality that flies under the radar.
Tell no one (friends, coworkers, extended family, etc) about your employment mindset. So many people tie their identity to their employment. And jealously makes people do petty things. Never give your enemy the means to destroy you.
Recognize that lifestyle is ephemeral. Live below your means. Financial security is comfort, and not being dependent on selling your labor is true power in Capitalism.
Be a Chaos Vulture
Embrace the confusion. Does the company have non-existent onboarding? Poor management? Little direction, followup, or reviews? Constantly changing & capricious goals? These are the hallmarks of a bad company…so revel in their misery. Actively seek these places out. Never correct your enemy while they're making a mistake.
Stretch the circus out as long as possible. This gives you room to coast, to avoid being on anyone's radar, etc. Restrained mediocre effort will be considered "going above and beyond." Even if you slip, you can easily blame "the system", like everyone else at the place. Every single day, week, month of this is more money in your pocket.
1944 official CIA guide for citizen sabotage of organizations: https://i.redd.it/7r0grz6dgsn81.png
Do not worry about "the environment you leave behind" when you depart a company. Do you think they're going to care about your personal well-being ~~if~~ when they lay you off?
Notice is a merely a courtesy, not a legal requirement (save for a few exceptions). Continuity of THEIR business operations is THEIR problem, not yours. They should have a plan if you accidentally got hit by a bus full of winning lottery tickets. Would they give you notice before laying you off?
Always be kind to your peers, but don't worry about them when you leave. If your leaving hurts their effectiveness -- that's a conversation THEY need with their manglement. The company left them hanging, not you.
Remember, you owe the company NOTHING -- if anything, they actually owe you, given how much they profited from your labor.
If you feel it's some type of moral failing on your part, then you are falling for their propaganda. Because don't think for one fucking second that millionaires and billionaires aren't doing the SAME EXACT THING...or worse...to you and everyone else.
Play their own game against them.
They exist to service us.
They sleep perfectly fine at night. You should too. Like a CEO.
sup3rk1w1@reddit
The best reply on Reddit I've ever seen.
CyberHouseChicago@reddit
Do your 40-50 hours and that’s it
MrCertainly@reddit
Be a Chaos Vulture
Embrace the confusion. Does the company have non-existent onboarding? Poor management? Little direction, followup, or reviews? Constantly changing & capricious goals? These are the hallmarks of a bad company…so revel in their misery. Actively seek these places out. Never correct your enemy while they're making a mistake.
Stretch the circus out as long as possible. This gives you room to coast, to avoid being on anyone's radar, etc. Restrained mediocre effort will be considered "going above and beyond." Even if you slip, you can easily blame "the system", like everyone else at the place. Every single day, week, month of this is more money in your pocket.
1944 official CIA guide for citizen sabotage of organizations: https://i.redd.it/7r0grz6dgsn81.png
Do not worry about "the environment you leave behind" when you depart a company. Do you think they're going to care about your personal well-being ~~if~~ when they lay you off?
Notice is a merely a courtesy, not a legal requirement (save for a few exceptions). Continuity of THEIR business operations is THEIR problem, not yours. They should have a plan if you accidentally got hit by a bus full of winning lottery tickets. Would they give you notice before laying you off?
Always be kind to your peers, but don't worry about them when you leave. If your leaving hurts their effectiveness -- that's a conversation THEY need with their manglement. The company left them hanging, not you.
secondstar78@reddit
Public sector IT guy here; I get paid the same regardless of whether or not I'm sitting in a meeting or doing actual IT work. I'm in a union, we have to leave promptly at the end of our shift so if it doesn't get done today, it'll have to wait until tomorrow. I vested a few years back and you guessed it; my pension will be the same regardless of whether or not I did actual IT work or spent my time sitting in meetings. Enjoy your paycheck, pension, and actual work / life balance!
occasional_cynic@reddit
So, what happens if someone does this for years, then gets laid off? How are they going to find another job when their #1 skill is "meeting management?"
nerdyviking88@reddit
laid off..in public service?
What is this mystery you speak of? Coasting to the end is a 15 year adventure here.
bbqwatermelon@reddit
Skill shrink is a danger for sure. I would say get those certs and education outside of work and look for a new company but within a year it will probably be more of the same. Do what you can to stay out of autopilot.
223454@reddit
In this case, that person would probably need to get into management.
occasional_cynic@reddit
I have known six separate laid off IT directors in my career. Not a single one found another job in IT management is any form.
mangeek@reddit (OP)
I don't have those kinds of protections, and I do get held to account if I am not getting things done. I don't want to clock-in and go to twenty hours of meetings where I apologize for not getting anything done week after week.
arwinda@reddit
Talk to your manager, bring evidence (aka numbers).
If things don't change, polish your CV.
On a side note, if you already do all the management work, like managing tickets and such, they can pay you for this. And hire someone to do the actual work.
Sushigami@reddit
Sing it with me class:
"♬ Find a new job ♬"
Mattythrowaway85@reddit
Learn about how to handle Task Saturation. This clip will help you determine how to prioritize. I work in federal government. There's competing priorities all the time. Learning to prioritize is a great skill set to learn:
https://youtu.be/84blX7ir7MY?si=6uRdmVC0pJVLf7cr
xboxhobo@reddit
I have given up my health for a job before. Not worth it, and never again. Please don't be like me. Stop the madness now. Don't wait until you've done permanent damage to your body.
aes_gcm@reddit
There are roles that are entirely meetings because the job is communication and organizing others, not doing any individual assignments yourself. It sounds like you're trying to do both. You've been clearly steered into the meeting-only role, so you can't be expected to do anything else yourself. If you are expected to get things done yourself, you need to book time in your calendar for this so that it can't be taken by meetings. Book like 4 hours of each day or something for your individual tasks.
mangeek@reddit (OP)
I certainly hope my role isn't supposed to be just going to meeting to collect and discuss tasks for the... one person I manage.
aes_gcm@reddit
Right. I guess I'm just saying that they're acting like you have role X (meetings only) when you have more role Y (individual tasks). In your argument, when you talk to leadership about this, maybe you could say that your roll is Y and not X.
bbqwatermelon@reddit
Sub should be renamed to MeetingAdmin
jjwhitaker@reddit
I have this but for 2 teams in parallel.
Today I had a half hour call with my manager about incidents open with our app vendor while my team met with that vendor about incidents we have open with them. :)
cbass377@reddit
First of all, your salary buys your company 40 hours of u/mangeek time. If they spend it on meetings, cool. If they spend it on meaningful work, even better. Don't spend all day talking about work, then all night doing the work.
There will come a time when a critical project needs to get done and management will say those magic words "Get it done by the end of the (X), do whatever it takes." At that point, you login to outlook, and decline every meeting for up to (X), When the project managers complain its "Talk to the Boss, I have been re-prioritized." When the Boss complains, you say "You said, do whatever it takes. This is what it takes. Where do you think the time is going?"
This happens to me time and time again. I remind my boss, that there are 26 blocks per day (15 minute blocks). I can use 1 per project, and at the end of the week, you will see 1 hour or progress, or I can use all them on 1 project and at the end of the week, you will have 40 hours of progress, or something in between. Then you slide a list of projects with a notation of how many hours each project is, and say "Lets spend some blocks, here are the 20 blocks left after we take out all the blocks for meetings. If you have a good manager, they will work with you to set priorities. If you don't they will tell you to figure it out without offering any guidance.
Banluil@reddit
When your boss asks you next time if you are "Ok", copy and paste this in an email to him.
Valdaraak@reddit
I'd probably even shorten it down to "at this point you guys aren't paying me to do IT work, you're paying me to sit in meetings" and then expand on that when asked.
kerosene31@reddit
You've got a "manager" who is a yes-(wo)man. Most likely, they are trying to please everyone by making everyone think their project is important and being worked on. This is why you meet all day and do little.
I used to have a boss who would ask me random status on projects. I learned quick to check his calendar. Whoever he was meeting with that day? That's the next status he was going to ask me. He meets with accounting at 10am? At 11:01 he'll be in my office asking about that project and that will suddenly be the priority. Tomorrow, he meets with HR and that is now #1. Accounting? Who told you to work on accounting???
It was chaos and nothing got done because we tried to do a little of everything. Just guessing on this, but I wouldn't be surprised.
It is your manager's job to prioritize. If they won't, you do it, and communicate it with them. Use whatever tool works for you and make it visible to them.
In one meeting I presented management with the 12 projects they had dumped on us and asked for them to number them. I'm not kidding, their answer was. "They are ALL #1".
You cannot let your health suffer because of this. Unless your company is about to find the cure for cancer.. it isn't worth losing your mind over this. Something will break eventually. Work your 40 and remember that your manager is the problem. If they want to pay you do waste time? That's what you do.
Cosmonaut_K@reddit
I feel your pain and hope you get some relief. I put a decade into a corporate company and got toasted. I work for small business now.
AustinGroovy@reddit
"Meetings require conflict".
If there's no conflict or issue to resolve, it can be communicated by email.
Sushigami@reddit
Ehh, confusion is just as valid a reason.
AustinGroovy@reddit
Yeah, not perfect when people don't read their emails either.
slickwhenwet1775@reddit
Oh boy I wish that was plastered on the walls at my workplace. Seems like we have meetings to talk about the upcoming meetings we have.
BoltActionRifleman@reddit
My org doesn’t have that many meetings company wide in a week, let alone ones in asked to attend. Regardless, you need to talk to your manager and tell them unless the meeting directly involves IT, you will not be in attendance. Maybe all the meetings you attend actually involve IT though? So that may not be of much help. But if it’s just you attending to listen to hours of planning that doesn’t involve you, it’s time to put your foot down.
It all comes down to management understanding you’re overwhelmed and if you find the right manager who also thinks meetings are a waste of time, it’s at least a start to getting on the right track.
Loud_Mycologist5130@reddit
I’m in the same boat. I finally had to allow a few projects to be late and when management complained I let them know that my time had been taken up by meetings which took my focus off of day to day tasks.
progenyofeniac@reddit
I'd detail it all to my immediate boss, and possibly his boss, depending on my relationship with them. Just explain what's going on, explain that you have 40 hours (yes, 40. Not 60. Not evenings and weekends. 40 daytime, weekday hours) to get things done, and meetings are taking 30 or whatever.
I totally get this. Meetings have crept up on me too. I work during them, I only reply if actually needed, I rarely bring up potential issues, only real, current issues. Basically I don't add to the noise. But it still takes you out of your actual work, I get it.
One option is to just not attend. Of course, with your boss's approval. But like others are saying, it's up to your management what they want you to do with your 40 hours. I've said it before: I never got more respect at work than when I started telling people I don't have time to do this or that. They finally realized my time was finite and valuable, and it was a notable turning point in my career. I hope you find the same.
Otto-Korrect@reddit
This is a constant battle for me. We had a merger a few years ago and it completely changed our corporate structure.
Now management is much more focused on meetings being the solution to almost everything.
I actually said no to a promotion because it would have meant less work in the field I love and more sitting and meetings.
Do not let yourself stress out over this it is just a job. If you can find you cannot do the tasks they want you to do end attend all the meetings just ask them straight up which meetings they think you should skip, or how to prioritize your time between meetings at actual work.
If they say the meetings are the priority that it is no longer your job to squeeze in the other work when you can by working overtime.
The closer I get to retirement the easier it is for me just to say no or let them know directly how I feel when they schedule me for another meeting with a consultant or vendor.
6Saint6Cyber6@reddit
I block off time on my calendar to do actual work, then decline meetings that conflict.
pdp10@reddit
Some things that can help, if you can get them to happen.
Pelatov@reddit
It basically sounds like you’ve turned in to a Project Manager without the proper tools.
malleysc@reddit
I feel you, my calendar is sometimes triple booked and somehow I am supposed to do the work we talk about in these meetings. A good while ago I started blocking time in my calendar to do actual work and since becoming almost fully remote I just log on before most people do to get things done. You have to create some balance for yourself as telling upper management there are too many meetings doesnt actually do anything to help (we seriously tried no meetings Friday for a whole two weeks and I was so happy). I wish you luck
funkyferdy@reddit
Oh boy, you were AGILEated :)
occasional_cynic@reddit
Everything about OP's post screams Agile + SAFE.
lawno@reddit
First, stop working more than 40 hrs. You are setting an expectation that you will "go above and beyond" and your organization is taking advantage of you. Create work blocks on your calendar and DO NOT allow meetings to be scheduled over them.
I was in a similar situation. I gathered a bunch of data and met with my manager and the CEO. They heard me, and things are much better now. If you don't have numbers to present to management, they'll just think you are whining.
I'd also recommend taking a 2-3 week vacation that is 100% offline.
jazzdrums1979@reddit
There are lots of things you can do to decrease the time of meetings. And have less meetings overall. From experience, it can be a project in and of itself. See if your boss can sit down with you to review the meetings to see which ones are necessary.
I was able to reduce meetings and the duration of meetings at my last company by taking inventory of meetings. We spoke with the many stakeholders of each meeting and came up with plans to reduce cadence and duration. We also deployed a meeting framework that focuses on keeping meetings on task and keeping them productive. No more showing up to meetings and bloviating for the full 30 minutes about nothing. The meetings must have a purpose, outcome and cogent talking points along with actions items at the of each meeting along with progress on previous open items.
LForbesIam@reddit
Recommend co-pilot in Teams and turn on the note taking. That will text record what everyone says. Me I work from home so I multitask. I just do my work while listening.
imgettingnerdchills@reddit
You guys are not ITILing hard enough, you need to ITIL harder.
drunkenitninja@reddit
Roll with it, and remind your management of the number of hours your actually able to do work. My team breaks everything down in hours, not days. This helps give a better perspective on how long it will actually take to complete a given task. We do have to remind folks from time-to-time that 8 hours isn't a single day, it's probably either two or three days, since we have anywhere from four to five hours of meetings every day.
TheBear_25@reddit
There is one way to do it: but it has a potential to either back fire or work.
Make a note of everything and keep the figures of missed/cancelled supports, working over hours etc, burned out staff, missed sales, missed opps - all in seperate worksheets
Then create a comparison to how it was to how it is, create charts etc- and put it all on a powerpoint detailing the decline and the reason for it, talk figures ie what £££ has been lost etc and email it to your managers.