Are there any towns in Greece with a majority of Turkish or Bulgarian speaking population?
Posted by stifenahokinga@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 105 comments
Are there any towns in Greece where the majority of the population (any percentage of people larger than 50%) speaks Turkish or Bulgarian? Any towns where either language can be seen commonly used in the daily life, in the streets, supermarkets, shops, restaurants...?
manguardGr@reddit
In Thrace and less in Rhodes and Kos islands in Dodecanese, you could hear Turkish language from the muslim communities. Bulgarian/slavophone dialects could be heard in north villages close to the north borders of Greece,especially in the perfecture of Florina. None are a majority though..
Late-Lemon-280@reddit
There are lots of towns in the north that the majority are Macedonians
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
I wouldn't be so sure of them not forming majorities at least on a municipality level.
labeatz@reddit
Anecdotally — Visiting some villages near the Macedonian border to trace family routes, all the old timers and middle aged people spoke to us in Macedonian, although some were a bit slow to do so, maybe the fact we were mildly harassed by border guards had something to do with it
CypriotGreek@reddit
There are a few villages around Central Macedonia who still speak Bulgarian.
So do many villages in Thrace, if you go to the Greek bulgarian border the towns there mostly speak Pomak Bulgarian and Greek.
For major towns, Komotini and Xanthi have a large Turkish-Speaking population, with 54% of the city being Muslim, but most of the muslims there are a mix of Turkish, Pomak and Roma so I wouldnt say they're Majority Turkish, most of them speak Turkish though due to the Great work of the Turkish consulate.
Another city with a sizable population of Muslims is Xanthi, but its more of a minority there, with 42% of the city being muslim, while similarly of that 41% only around 40% of the muslims there self identify as Turkish.
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
In Central Macedonia the Slavic minority speaks Macedonian and not Bulgarian, and they live in more than just a few villages as they count some 30.000 to 100.000 (exact count unknown due to us not recognising their minority).
In Western Thrace, a big part of the Muslim minority is still Turkish regardless of whether we're recognising it or not.
CypriotGreek@reddit
If you visit these minorities in Greece, they call themselves Macedonian Bulgarians, aka Bulgarian from the region of Macedonia.
I can assure you that they are not in any means what the modern state of North Macedonia called themselves today, some may associate themselves with the name, but still called themselves Bulgarian and speak regular Bulgarian.
About the Muslims in Thrace, while most speak the Turkish language, due to the Turkish consulate funding of that area, less than 40% of the Muslim population consider themselves Turks, with most of them being Pomaks, Gypsies and Self-proclaimed Greeks.
And I can assure you that there are not 100,000 Bulgarians in Macedonia , the number you see on Wikipedia etc includes Pomaks and other Bulgarian Muslims living in Thrace, which has the larger population.
Because you seem to always speak against Greece in your posts, being critical of a country history doesn’t mean being outright against it at every turn and being an Εθνομηδενιστής, just fyi.
damjan193@reddit
This is simply untrue, I've personally met people from Greek Macedonia who consider themselves Macedonian, and there are events done very often for these people in these parts. They are not in huge numbers but they are a few thousands.
CypriotGreek@reddit
Exactly what I mentioned, there are most definitely people that self identify as “Macedonian” but the wide majority still consider themselves Bulgarian. There’s a couple thousand Bulgarians and “Macedonians” still living in Macedonia.
They also can’t really call themselves Macedonians as there’s another ethnic group that have been calling themselves the Macedonians for quite a bit longer
damjan193@reddit
Oh I'm sorry did Greeks transfered from Turkey into Macedonia called dibs first on the term Macedonians and now have monopoly over it? How are they more Macedonians than the Macedonians who speak Macedonian and consider themselves as ethnic Macedonians? We did not say the same thing, these people call themselves Macedonian only and not Bulgarian, there was even an institute of Macedonian language in Lerin ffs, that of course got closed down.
CypriotGreek@reddit
You funky monkeys seem to be forgetting that there’s also a humongous majority of Greeks who lived there before the odd 200.000 Pontic Greeks moved to the region, even before they came, we still where majority.
And also, if we wanna play this game, you didn’t call yourself Macedonian back in the day you called yourself Bulgarian, and the Bulgarian patriarch had control over the Bulgarians in the region, so let’s not kid ourselves here, oh proud ancestor of Alexandrovski makedonski, just because you call yourself something doesn’t mean that you are that.
damjan193@reddit
The denial of a whole ethnicity and the systhematic destruction of it in the 21st century by an European country is wild. Citing "history" as an excuse for it is even wilder and typical Balkan. I'm not going to get into a pointless historical discussin but denying living people their right of self determination in this day and age just because they speak a Slavic variant of a language instead of Greek is just plain chauvisinstic behaviour. I simply can not see how you can see yourself as the good guy here.
Every-Artist-35@reddit
You are Macedonian in the sense that you were born and raised in the greater area of Macedonia.
You are not ethnic Macedonian per se because since this ethnicity was formed by a different ethnic group and has the same name as it had for centuries.
If you want to identify your ethnicity in my opinion you are Slavic Macedonians.
qc703@reddit
Who cares what we are called at this point. Isn’t it funny how everyone thinks they have a say in what our identity “should” be? As long as we don’t get to the point of burning down villages again (not in the history books in Greece but my family lived it) and allowing us to speak our language it shouldn’t be such a bother. Apparently Turks (who enslaved us for hundreds of years) can live freely in Greece but the “Macedonians that don’t get to have an identity” will never get to live their truth because Greeks are too busy speculating and appropriating. Make it make sense at this point. Δεν ντρέπεστε λίγο; ps. thanks in advance for the downvotes.
Every-Artist-35@reddit
Well ethnicity is not a matter of self proclamation. It has to be factual.
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
I obviously don't agree with the idea that every single person inhabiting Greek Macedonia is a settler from Turkey like the Macedonian dude above suggested, since people don't usually disappear out of nowhere and we do indeed know that Greek Macedonia had a native Greek speaking population even before the 1923 exchange, however, "200K Pontics" are not the only refugees from Turkey who settled in this area, there are also those who are originally from East Thrace, Western Anatolia and Bulgarian Thrace.
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
My own people have plenty of bad takes i am not denying that, but where do you get the idea that every Greek inhabiting Greek Macedonia is a refugee from Turkey?
Surely these people form a majority in places like Kilkis, Drama, Kavala and so on, but native Greeks are not some kind of extreme rarity like you seem to believe.
damjan193@reddit
It was more of an exaggeration provoked by the chauvinistic stance by the other comment. I do not believe that EVERY Greek in Greek Macedonia is a Turkish refugee, but it is also preposterous to claim that people who do not speak Greek can not be Macedonians or that a Macedonian identity cannot exsist because it is "taken", "someone else was here before you" or any other malarky driven by cherry picked historical and societal facts. Just because someone speaks a language of a Slavic variant does not mean he or she doesn't have the right to identify as Macedonian, and it also doesn't mean that those people are less "native" than the Greek speakers living there.
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
I don't believe that you can't call yourself Macedonian or that you're not native to the region, you can call yourself Macedonian, in fact, i believe your country should be called Macedonia rather than North Macedonia, i just don't understand why some Macedonians think that Greek Macedonia is only inhabited by 2 groups, ethnic Macedonians and Anatolian refugees.
In reality, the area is inhabited by multiple different groups, such as Macedonian Greeks, ethnic Macedonians, Anatolian refugees, Thracian refugees, Gypsies and Vlachs.
damjan193@reddit
What you said is correct and I've not heard anyone with a little bit of knowledge claiming otherwise. The Anatolian refugees are usually brought up as a counter-argument when the "nativeness" of Macedonian speakers is questioned and the claim that only Greek speakers can be considered Macedonian.
I'm glad that you agree with me on some points but sadly your personal opinion is in a very small minority within Greece and very different from any official Greek stance.
TNT_GR@reddit
Greeks inhabited the region even before Slavs stepped their feet on Balkans so the first part of your argument is invalid.
damjan193@reddit
No Greek speaker indentified as "Macedonian" for a few thousand years until very recently. It doesn't matter though, that was my point, people should be allowed to identify how they like regardless of the language they speak.
TNT_GR@reddit
Of course you support that everyone should be able to identify as they want, that’s all your fake history is based on. You have no shame for the first sentence, everyone was identifying as Macedonian but being Greek was above everything because Macedonian was not a different nation after Alexander unified all the Greek city-states.
Thefirstredditor12@reddit
When a greek identifies as macedonian it means he is a greek from the region of macedonia.
Greek speakers not identifying as macedonian for a few thousand years makes no sense,as macedonian= greek.
Its like spartan or athenian etc....
You identify as macedonian mean something else and not related to the above.
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
The Macedonians who replied seem to have a different opinion than you and I have no reason not to trust them.
40% is still a substantial percentage.
FYI, I've seen numbers up to 800,000 Macedonians (and not Bulgarians) but I know these can't be realistic. The truth however still is that the numbers would be much higher than 100,000 if we hadn't expelled the majority of Macedonians living in our part of Macedonia.
I'm not an εθνομηδενιστής, I don't want Greece to stop existing nor I want her to be a puppet state. I support the territorial integrity of Greece. But when Greece is wrong against another country, I'll support the other country. And when a minority in Greece is not adequately respected, I'll support the minority.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Yes you have your personal bias towards FYROM and beef agaist Bulgaria which dillutes your vission.
Last time math was concerned "40%" isn't bigger than "60%", but you do you.
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Οι σλαβοι ειναι οι χειροτεροι και θα το λεω και θα το ξανα λεω
Slkotova@reddit
Για ξαναλές το, δε σε κατάλαβα;
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Πρωην γιουγκοσλαβοι οχι οι βουλγαροι, οι μονοι νορμαλ γειτονες
TNT_GR@reddit
Wraio kolpo pantws!
Targoniann@reddit
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Οχι εσεις ❤️
Targoniann@reddit
:)
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Milaw gia thn prwhn yugoslavia
Targoniann@reddit
Ξέρω, αστειεύομαι <3, αλλά μερικοί Έλληνες δεν σκέφτονται καν τους Βούλγαρους ως Σλάβους, αλλά ως πρωτοβούλγαρους. Είμαι ευγνώμων που η Βουλγαρία δεν συμμετείχε σε αυτό το τσίρκο της Γιουγκοσλαβίας.
TNT_GR@reddit
Συγκεκριμένοι Σλάβοι όμως..
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Ναι εχεις δικιο, δεν το διατυπωσα σωστα γενικα οι πρωην γιουγκοσλαβοι ολοι για φαπες (οχι οι ελληνες δεν ειμαστε καλυτεροι)
CypriotGreek@reddit
Σίγουρα δεν είναι οι χειρότεροι, αν δείς το έργο του τουρκικού προξενείου στη Θράκη θα καταλάβεις πόσο κακοί είναι αυτοί οι άγριοι. Παράγουν μίσος και βιτριόλι εναντίον της χριστιανικής και της μουσουλμανικής κοινότητας στις πόλεις και χρησιμοποιούν τους δικούς μας ανθρώπους εναντίον μας.
leafsland132@reddit
I am from northern Greece we speak Macedonian not Bulgarian and no one has ever identified as a Macedonian Bulgarian; that is a phenomenon not in Greece. Yes, if you go to eastern Thrace people speak pomak (bulgarian) but that is not in western, central, or eastern makedonia
Balekov94@reddit
Say that to my grandfather whose parents fled that part of Greece in the 1910s. All of those villages were inhabited by Bulgarians before the guys in the north even had this separate ‘Macedonian’ national identity.
damjan193@reddit
We also have grandfathers who feld there ffs it's not just you, and they spoke Macedonian. The post is about today anyway, and a small number of villiges speak Macedonian there.
Christo2555@reddit
Funny how every visitor to there before 1900 noted the language as Bulgarian.
damjan193@reddit
There was no Macedonia at the time, most Macedonians got educated by the Bulgarian exarchate, in Bulgarian language. Others got educated in Greek and some in Serbian. There is enough evidence however to support the fact that a lot of Macedonians felt different from Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks and the idea of a seperate Macedonian identity was always alive even without forign support (which is something every other country had no lack of).
labeatz@reddit
The political and cultural reality was different back then. Easy to imagine a national identity might not be clearly defined, in a time when many might never leave their village far enough to see the nearest capital city in their lifetimes
There were splits, multiple times over, within the various VMRO iterations over whether to unite with (semi-independent) Bulgaria and ignite more rebellion there, too, or push for an independent & distinct Macedonian revolution.
And in large part, that was a strategic question — all these “national identities” were not so concrete and decided on back then. Half my Macedonian family fled the same areas as yours at the same time, but they went north. Really, whether people were “Bulgarian” or “Macedonian” is not a question for normal people back then, only economic elites & others trying to wage revolution against the Ottomans would care much either way
Some manifestos from the pro-Macedonian side argue that “Macedonian” should be a civic identity not just for Macedonian slavs, but “for all Macedonians” meaning every type of person who lives there, even local Turks (who are encouraged not to side with the Ottomans but join revolution)
kudelin@reddit
Extremely rare informed and nuanced take from a Balkaner.
Balekov94@reddit
What a crazy answer! Of course people had their ethnic identities even 1000 years ago. What the heck are you on about…
Juggertrout@reddit
You hear Turkish and Pomak spoken quite frequently in Xanthi and Komotini. In Komotini about 50% of the inhabitants are from the Muslim community so would mostly use Turkish or Pomak between themselves. In the Rhodope mountains, there are municipalities where <99% of the population are Muslim and so they speak mostly Pomak but also Turkish is commonly used. These are no cities in the Rhodope mountains though, only villages.
Minskdhaka@reddit
Isn't Pomak (as a language) just Bulgarian?
Juggertrout@reddit
I asked this to my friends from the Pomak-speaking villages in Greece once and they told me that when they went to Bulgaria, they could easily communicate with people in the Rhodopes, with some difficulty in Plovdiv and could barely understand anything in Sofia. They also told me that when they went to Sarajevo they found Bosnian easier to understand than Sofia Bulgarian.
Stealthfighter21@reddit
The last sentence I call BS. Makes no sense.
kudelin@reddit
It's the same as the dialect on our side of the border, although both are for sure less mutually intelligible with standard Bulgarian than the language spoken in The Country Formerly Known as...
stifenahokinga@reddit (OP)
Do they also speak Greek?
Juggertrout@reddit
This is a good article about it: https://newlinesmag.com/reportage/the-mysteries-of-greeces-forgotten-mountain-villages/
stifenahokinga@reddit (OP)
I've read that in some towns like Echinos although people speak Pomak and Greek in the streets, almost all the population speaks Turkish at home. Is this accurate?
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
Yes, the Muslims in Greece generally speak Turkish.
There are people in Serres and to a lesser extent Drama whose ancestors spoke Bulgarian, but the language isn't as popular among younger people.
Complex_Shine_1113@reddit
The language is Macedonian, not Bulgarian. Respect the right to self-determination of the people that live there and let’s put propaganda aside.
_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit
I don’t think it’s fair to be so uncompromising. For example both my and my wife’s family has ancestors that were refugees for Greece and I can assure you they felt Bulgarian, which is also the reason they had to escape - it wasn’t safe for them to express their ethnic identity and they weren’t willing to hide it.
Complex_Shine_1113@reddit
That’s fine, but the same can be said about the hundreds of thousands of people that can trace at least one ancestor from Greece that live in North Macedonia, and feel Macedonian. The people we should be asking are the ones currently living in Greece, and they feel and identify as Macedonian.
pitogyros@reddit
You can find few people who self identify as Macedonian in Florida area near to the borders with north Macedonia , there are few villages etc , in the area of Serres the Slavic speaking people living there still identify as Bulgarian.
Complex_Shine_1113@reddit
Do you have any sources to back that claim?
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
I personally speak neither Bulgarian nor Macedonian, but afaik the Slavic language spoken in the villages of Serres and Drama is closer to Bulgarian than to Macedonian.
Complex_Shine_1113@reddit
The dialects of Serres and Drama are closer to the dialects that are spoken in Eastern North Macedonia and South Western Bulgaria (Bulgaria’s Macedonia region). Outright saying it’s closer to standard Bulgarian is not entirely accurate.
kudelin@reddit
The Drama dialect and some dialects from Pirin Macedonia, for that matter, e.g. from Goce Delchev (Nevrokop), were never aligned with any proper Macedonian dialects in any way or form though and that's a fact. They belong to the Rhodopean (Rupskata) dialect group and that's Eastern Bulgarian beyond any doubt.
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
Possibly, as i said i speak neither language, i am just repeating what i have heard.
damjan193@reddit
How would you know if you speak neither?
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
Read my comment again, "afaik" is not there just for the sake of it, it standa for "I don't know", i am just repeating what I have heard.
stifenahokinga@reddit (OP)
Would you say a majority of the population (>50% of thr total population)?
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
Komotini has a Muslim majority, yes.
stifenahokinga@reddit (OP)
And do they all speak Turkish or also Pomak? What percentage of people in Komotini speaks either language?
mal-sor@reddit
Heard of some villages that spoke albanian,when my neighbours moved there in the 90s.
They had no need to learn greek
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
There are no monolingual Albanian speakers native to Greece, all of them are pretty Hellenized.
damjan193@reddit
I can't understand how them being "hellenized" is not a big thing. Had they had the option I believe they would have rather stayed what they are.
pitogyros@reddit
Arvanites were not Hellenized by force , plenty of Greek national heroes had arvanite origin.
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
Did i say it was a "good thing"?
I don't know why Albanians in our country adopted the Greek language, so honestly i couldn't tell you, maybe you're right or maybe you're wrong, i don't really know.
mal-sor@reddit
Back in the 90s tho,they spoke greek but to my neighbours they spoke Arvanitika and its pretty understandable,they where older generation for sure.
Nowadays i dont know.
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
Greece does have a native Albanian population, all i am saying is that there are no monolingual Albanian speakers anymore, they all know Greek, this doesn't mean that the older generations don't speak Albanian, ofc they do.
manguardGr@reddit
Albanian or Arvanite?
Teodosij@reddit
It's the same language
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
You got downvoted because you triggered some Greek nationalist, amazing 😂
mal-sor@reddit
Arvanite but its pretty understandable to albanians
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
Arvanite is a Tosk Albanian dialect.
CalydonianBoar@reddit
My father is Arvanite Greek from Peloponnese and he can have some basic conversations with Tosk Albanians. After 1990 the language started to severely decline and even before most people villages in plainsareas were bilingual at home. Only in rural villages were mostly Arvanito-phones.
I grew up during the 90s-00s and I could only hear old people speaking the language sometimes and even my grandfather who grew up as bilingual spoke only Greek to us at home. I could hear stories that my great-grandfather couldn't speak Greek very well but he raised his children as bilinguals.
Nowadays I believe that only old people in remote mountainous areas still speak Arvanitika in their everyday lives.
ballzstreetwets@reddit
It is really disheartening to read some of the comments here about the Macedonian language, and being a true Μακεδων to have to explain to people that I am a Greek Macedonian like there is another Macedonian except that. I understand people's needs for identity, but the adoption of a fake identity doesn't solve your problems. We all know history and who the Macedonians were, and what their language was. Aristotle was a Macedonian, and you know what his language was. Alexander the Great was a Macedonian, and he was Greek. You can not change that. CAN NOT.
Mako2401@reddit
There are no Bulgarians in Greece, only Macedonians who hide because they are shunned by the local populace. I was in Solun (thessaloniki) last week and spoke to at least ten "greeks" in Macedonian. Turkish, not that many, I would say that there are many Albanians as well but in the northwest of the country.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
And this quote of yours is definetly irrelevant to your worldview?
Mako2401@reddit
The worldview that you got upset that a Macedonian got the position? Yes.
leafsland132@reddit
Your getting downvoted for speaking the truth
LibertyChecked28@reddit
He is getting downvoted because all it takes is a single background check on his profile to confirm what he is, and what bais does he have:
But yes, let's trust the Macedonian nationalist on his views towards Greek-Bulgarians, in the exact manner how we would trust Turkish ultranationalist on his views on Arabs/Kurds/Armenians/Hebrew, ect.
ZhiveBeIarus@reddit
There are plenty of Bulgarians and Turks in Greek Thrace.
AideSpartak@reddit
Why would there be no Bulgarians? There are more of us that have ancestry from Macedonia in Bulgaria, than there are Macedonians in Macedonia, and most of our families are refugees from the Greek/Aegean Macedonia.
Mako2401@reddit
I just told you I talked to ten people who told me they are Macedonians. I've never met anyone who told me they are bulgarian.
AideSpartak@reddit
There are Bulgarians who claim that there are no Macedonians or that they’ve encountered and talked with many oppressed Bulgarians in Macedonia who are afraid to speak up. Would you accept such an argument as legit?
Also you are talking with one right now. My family originates from the region around Kastoria/Kostur and Florina/Lerin and came to Bulgaria. There are more of us here in Bulgaria who have such roots than there are Macedonians in your country.
And just a tip- if you are going to lie, don’t do it with Solun/Thessaloniki. Even in the pro-Bulgarian ethnic maps and censuses from the 19th century that pushed the idea of Greater Bulgaria, the city of Solun itself was never shown as Bulgarian/Slavic as it was populated mostly by Jews, Greeks and Turks. There was a Bulgarian school and a Bulgarian church, so yeah there were Bulgarians there and in the area but pretending that there is a large Slavic minority in the city that somehow survived through to today is just laughable
TNT_GR@reddit
“Trust me bro, I know people and they’re no Bulgarians”
el_primo@reddit
Last time I went to NY I spoke to 10 people. All of them identified as Irish. I assure you that there are no Americans in NY, all of them are Irish. Source: trust me.
Mako2401@reddit
Buddy. You don't admit that Macedonians exist and here I am, existing. Stop living in your alternate reality .
el_primo@reddit
We don't care about how you define yourself now, we only care when you spit on the memory of our forefathers.
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
There are both Turks and Bulgarians (Pomaks) in Western Thrace. Those around Florina are Macedonians though.
Dancouga@reddit
The Athenian Government killed Greek culture in the name of national unity.
dkfkvksmaksf@reddit
My village, Kottani. Last time I went a lot of people still spoke Bulgarian, same with a few of the villages surrounding us. :))
Unfortunately, it will meet the fate like a lot of the villages in the balkans, death. We have no children and only want to move to the west.... :(
itlo@reddit
There are no minorities in Greece. There are though greek minorities in many countries, but in Greece no no, no other ethnicities, only pure greeks. And some happen to also speak other languages, but they are pure greeks.
Minskdhaka@reddit
This is an r/2balkans4you or r/balkans_irl type answer.
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
Of course there are other ethnicities including hellenized Albanians (Arvanites).
AMagusa99@reddit
Towns like Florina in the North would have had a majority Macedonian speaking population before the Greek Civil War. They were given minority rights under communist control but lost them very soon after, when many children were effectively kidnapped and taken away as far as Poland and the Czech Republic after the communist areas fell. After they grew up, many had issues coming back to Greece.
To take Florina as a running example as it's the only one I've researched, some historically would have identified as Bulgarians (probably none living their now), many would have identified as Macedonians in the recent past (not so many living there now as alot of them emigrated), and many would identify as Greek. Bare in mind there are many refugee families there from Asia Minor and the Black Sea, they may even form the majority, noone can know for sure
The Greek state begrudgingly uses the awkward term "Slavo-Macedonians" to describe them.
figflashed@reddit
Thessaloniki 1725
japetusgr@reddit
Major towns no, but many villages at the prefectures of Rodopi and Xanthi feature a majority of muslim population who speak mainly turkish, but at some mountainous villages they also speak pomak, a bulgarian dialect. At the cities themselves of Xanthi and Komotini you can widely hear turkish being spoken, the population that speaks them is not the majority though...