What is/was the oldest vehicle in a particular class that’s still competitive?

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_2Stuffy@reddit

Mercedes-Benz G Wagon: Basically the same car forever, does not really have any competition (BMW tried with the XM but failed)

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Erdnalexa@reddit

18 years later, the R63 AMG is still the most powerful (510hp), quickest (0–60 in 5s), fastest (155–170mph top speed) production minivan in the world.

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Trollygag@reddit

The R63 doesn't have minivan sliding doors, which have been the standard for the segment literally since the very first minivan was developed.

It is more of a fat wagon or a large crossover.

There are some MPVs that look kinda like minivans out of China that don't have sliding rear doors, and there are cargo van conversions that might not have sliding doors (though I have never seen one), or buses, but minivans have sliding doors on the rear.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

According to Mercedes, the R-class is a minivan, according to my insurer it’s a minivan, according to journalists it’s a minivan.

For example, the Renault Espace (since 1984) doesn’t have sliding doors, neither do the Ford S-Max, the Fiat Multiplat, the Opel Zafira, the Citroën Xsara, the Volkswagen Touran, the Ford C-Max. Sliding doors, while common, is not what defines the minivan/MPV/M-segment.

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long-the-short@reddit

I'm on Europe and have shamefully owned a zaf and a pic. They were never classed as minivans. Just standard MPVs.

If the places they are made don't use or sell them as mini vans I don't see how America can. But whatever

Also they were all shite haha

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Erdnalexa@reddit

The Minivan classification in America is equivalent to the MPV/M-segment classification in Europe. Even if we usually think there is a difference.

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long-the-short@reddit

I love Americans maaaan.

The car is sold here, not sold, described, insured, written or taxed as a mini van (using your own words) but America says so which makes it , literally a minivan because of wiki lmao.

It doesn't even distract from your car. But the Zaf isn't a minivan. Your car might be, the Zaf isn't.

Loooooord.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

You don’t understand, these classifications are the same. Despite the fact that in Europe we think of a subset of minivans when using the word “minivan”. In French, we use the word “Monospace” to talk about MPVs. And you know what’s the English translation of the word “Monospace”? It’s “minivan”.

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long-the-short@reddit

Okieeeee dokieeeee. America right uhuh

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Erdnalexa@reddit

You do realize I’m not American, right?

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long-the-short@reddit

Then why put so much weight on the wiki. Kinda odd

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dissss0@reddit

According to Mercedes, the R-class is a minivan,

When did they refer to it as such?

I do recall their marketing calling it 'something infinitely better than a boring minivan' and a 'grand sport tourer' but I doubt they'd have ever stooped to calling it a minivan

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MrCreepyCreeper@reddit

Adding to your list; the first gen Mazda MPV and the first gen Honda Odyssey had standard doors. The international Honda Odyssey didn’t have sliding doors until 2013. Plus the Toyota Innova never had sliding doors, but that morphed from a body on frame “minivan” into a unibody suv.

You could argue there’s also a semantic difference between a minivan and an MPV, like the difference between a convertible and a roadster.

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Captain_Alaska@reddit

No, American market vans have standard sliding doors, it took a while to catch on elsewhere. The international Honda Odyssey didn’t get them until 2013 for example.

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slide2k@reddit

I get a feeling this is your default answer, when someone asks you why you own one.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

This is the third one.

The first one is: “stay behind it while I start it up”.

The second one is: “see how comfortable this is?”

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StonerMetalhead710@reddit

I'm gonna take a wild guess that the fourth reason is "it's likely significantly more rare than your favorite supercar"

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Top_Answer7906@reddit

I bet that start up gurgle is 🤤

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velociraptorfarmer@reddit

Shame FCA never had the balls to make the Pacificat.

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Vgamedead@reddit

I think these three statement may need an amendment to say it's the best in the ICE category. I'm somewhat sure there's a few EV minivans in China are at least both more powerful and quicker to 60.

First example that I found was the Zeekr 009 having a combined output of 536 HP and a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds. Very low top speed though, the 009 only has a 120 mph limit.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

Never heard about this before, is it for the Chinese market only?

But fair enough :)

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Vgamedead@reddit

I believe it's just China and AUS/NZ right now. I know Zeekr has stores in the EU, but I don't recall the 009 being sold there yet.

Funnily enough, I now don't think there's many EV minivans being quicker than the R63. The other two models that I know of, the Xpeng X9 and Li Mega, are both slower than the R63 AMG. Caveat is that there's like dozens upon dozens of EV companies in China so I can't guarantee no random mfg makes something bonkers there.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

I’d love to see how the Zeekr fairs against the R63 on a racetrack

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Vgamedead@reddit

Hahaha the Zeekr would get crushed on any tracks with any sort of cornering. The Zeekr is very much a luxury business type vehicle where they can offer a 4 seat luxury arrangement. There's a slight possibility that the Zeekr wins a drag race, it'd be interesting to see for sure.

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markeydarkey2@reddit

The Model X Plaid is arguably just as much of a minivan (kinda sorta but not entirely) as the R-Class, it's stupid quick with 2x the HP [1020hp] of an R63 AMG.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

They are similar, but technically the Model X is an SUV, while the R-class an MPV.

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markeydarkey2@reddit

The Model X is an MPV pretending to be an SUV, it says MPV on the door sticker with MPV proportions & has easy-access rear doors just like a minivan. The only thing really stopping it from being called a minivan is the sloped rear roof, but it's almost like a sportback version of a minivan.

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srsbsnssss@reddit

is quick/top speed the priority metric in a minivan tho?

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Erdnalexa@reddit

Depends for whom, but the R-class is also very comfortable and very spacious (can sit 6 adults easily), can have up to 2.4 cubic meters (85 cubic feet) of cargo space. It’s a great daily if you ignore fuel

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srsbsnssss@reddit

i bet it crash-tested very well in the mid 2000s as well

enjoy your unique vehicle

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Erdnalexa@reddit

Well it did, except for the risk of rib damage in case of a side impact.

Thanks, I do enjoy it, more than any other vehicle I’ve owned

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18voltbattery@reddit

lol no minivans doors making it either a) the least useful minivan or b) the ugliest SUV

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Erdnalexa@reddit

a) there are tons of minivans without sliding doors, I’m not even sure that the majority in this segment. b) it’s ugly (especially on pictures) but it’s not an SUV

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YesNoMaybe@reddit

I can't think of a single SUV I've been in in the last 30 years that hasn't had a sliding back door. It's like one of the defining characteristics of a minivan.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

In this comment I give examples of vehicles in the M-segment that don’t have sliding doors: https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/s/oX0kqNpK0n

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BattlePrune@reddit

Ehh, sure, but they’re not what americans think when they say minivan.

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Erdnalexa@reddit

Maybe but what Americans think of is just a subset of minivans. I’m curious, in which category would you put the examples I’ve given? Considering there are neither station wagons nor SUVs

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n0t_4_thr0w4w4y@reddit

Chrysler not making a hellcat minivan is so sad

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Erdnalexa@reddit

The Hellcat Durango is the next best thing

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Spirited-Pause@reddit

ew

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productiveaccount1@reddit

I hate this car because it makes me look closely at every single R series to see if it’s an R63.

It’s my white whale and i won’t rest until i see it. But that means that I’ve spent hours of my life looking at some Mercedes minivan from the 2000s.

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EnglishJesus@reddit

I consider myself pretty knowledgeable about cars and would describe myself as a petrol head. I’d never heard of an R63 till I read your comment.

I’m so please that Merc were insane enough to drop the same 6.2L engine into a god damn minivan. I really wish they’d put the current 4L AMG into the Xclass pickup. I’d have killed for an F150 Raptor equivalent in the UK

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SophistXIII@reddit

And also the most unreliable lol

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Erdnalexa@reddit

Oh yes

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south-of-the-river@reddit

I drove one of these a fair bit in KL. They’re ugly as shit.

I appreciate ugly cars, but meh. Also I used to have a RVR Hyper Sportsgear that would have eaten it alive, and it had a siding door. And bugs bunny used to advertise it. But none of that matters because boy odds the R63 ugly.

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goharinthepaint@reddit

Chevy Express

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stevolutionary7@reddit

This is the winner. It's been unchanged since 2003, except for engines and transmissions (and deleting content). But somehow there are still enough "old-school" van customers to justify it's existence.

The Sprinter costs more. The Promaster is front wheel drive. The NV2500 is dead. And the Transit is a Ford. I guess those are enough reasons.

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DudebuD16@reddit

I went from a Savana to a promaster for work.

The promaster is superior in every single way. Way more space for tools and materials, the Pentastar V6 is quicker than the sluggish V8 in the Savana, it's way more comfortable to drive and easier to handle in the city, the promaster 1500 handled as much as payload as the Savana 2500, the Savana 2500 without any payload is hell to drive, the barebones promaster has more tech than the Savana.

Being fwd is not a knock for the promaster as it handles Canadian winters better than the Savana and is better in tighter spots.

I don't know who is buying the express/Savana because all fleet sales for work vans are transits/promasters/sprinters here in Canada.

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stevolutionary7@reddit

That's good to hear. I haven't had the pleasure of driving a Promaster.

Only positive I could think of with the Savanna is that it might take abuse better- the pentastar does not like to miss oil changes. But then you have the GM lifter issues...

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goharinthepaint@reddit

Does the 6.6 gas have lifter issues? Thought those were related to the AFM/DoD systems on the 5.3/6.2

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stevolutionary7@reddit

Definitely not as bad, but there have been some.

Shame they dropped the 2.7 diesel from the vans. That was a neat application.

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mikeycp253@reddit

2.8 diesel. Those engines are worthless, good riddance. Far more complicated and expensive to repair for little to no benefit over a V8.

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stevolutionary7@reddit

Really? That a shame. Thought the V8 diesels were overkill in the van segment (nor do they fit anymore).

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molrobocop@reddit

My Express, a 2010 2500 with the 4.8 has 240,000 miles. And it's only needed minor fixes in the 60k I've had it. A starter, water pump, charcoal filter. Nothing particularly onerous or hard to do. They say with basic maintenance, they're good for 300k-400k miles. Which is pretty respectable longevity for a GM product.

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DudebuD16@reddit

I had more engine issues with the savana, left me stranded twice. Once on a highway, once in the middle of a major intersection while trying to turn left.

I beat the piss out of the promaster and it keeps going

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stevolutionary7@reddit

Nice! Glad you got a good one!

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Alec_NonServiam@reddit

I've had two promasters at my company. One blew the torque converter at 30k miles and the other detonated 3rd gear at 50k. We have one more still in use that's fine for now but I'm not sold on that transmission.

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penguinchem13@reddit

My old boss's promaster couldn't make it up stone construction driveways in the winter

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BeigeChocobo@reddit

When I was moving I actually rented a Promaster and an Express in close proximity to one another and I totally agree with your assessment. I liked the Promaster way better

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DudebuD16@reddit

My only gripe is the driving position. I have long legs and a short torso and it does get uncomfortable because of the lack of adjustment available.

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Drzhivago138@reddit

At this point the BOF V8 Express is for those commercial buyers who need to tow 10K and don't want a pickup.

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ILikeTewdles@reddit

I just rented a Express to move. I thought they gave me a old van waking out to it, but when I hopped in it was brand new 2024 with ~250 miles on it!

Driving it I remember how much I like GM's older designs and powertrain. Not the smoothest ride but simple and super solid feeling.

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stevolutionary7@reddit

Amazing how you can refine something when there are years and years of no updates. It also hails from the days when stiff suspension did not equate with good handling.

It does what it does very well. It's just ancient.

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ILikeTewdles@reddit

I wish they made a classic version of the Silverado like the Express. I'd love a new truck for homeowner stuff, hauling dirt bikes, camping etc, but I don't need what new mainstream trucks have become, especially their pricetag.

It would be so cool if GM offered a classic Silverado that was affordable. Kind of like what Stellantis did with the classic RAM up until recently.

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Previous_Composer934@reddit

hop on marketplace and buy one

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Bassracerx@reddit

Ram has the 1500 classic and they are desperate for customers right now. 15-20k cash on the hood

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ILikeTewdles@reddit

Yeah, last year of them from what I understand. Warlock trim V8's right around $40k marked down from $57k.

Being in a snowy state I wish they offered auto transfer cases on them though.

That's one of my biggest issues with fullsize trucks, you have to buy the higher trims to get auto 4WD.

Still may be worth it, I've been waiting to see what else happens at Stellantis.

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dontdoxmebro@reddit

GM doesn’t gate keep their 4Auto behind trim levels on the 1500, although they do limit the availability of 4Lo on the latest model.

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Bassracerx@reddit

Yeah the good thing about the ram classic is your buying into an older platform with lots of parts available oem and aftermarket.

I can see how awd in a truck would be beneficial in the snow . Probably worth it to just get an older sierra Denali

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I_like_cake_7@reddit

GM “kind of” offers a classic version of the Silverado and Sierra. The WT and Custom trims of the Silverado and the Pro trim of Sierra still come with the pre-facelift interior that dates back to 2019. I guess that’s GM’s way of keeping the price down on the lower trims, or just them being lazy, but the lower trims of the Silverado and Sierra are still quite pricey for what they are though, sadly. You could more or less get fundamentally the same truck in 2019 for 15-20% less money, if not even less than that. Inflation is a bitch.

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ILikeTewdles@reddit

Great points, I have looked at the work truck trims but like you said, they're expensive. With a V8 quad cab and the Auto Trac transfer case they're over $53k.

The last new V8 4x4 quad cab truck a family member purchased in the late 2010's was sub $40k with incentives.

$40k is doable to us, $50k+, is not very attractive.

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stevolutionary7@reddit

They have done it in the past, but usually just a year or two.

It would be nice to get a new 2005-era truck though. Not a worn out rusty heap.

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ILikeTewdles@reddit

Right! That's the issue in the salt belt states. I've looked at used older trucks but they're all kind of beat to crap and have rust.

I'd also like to take it on some longer trips but don't really like doing that in old beater trucks.

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molrobocop@reddit

Yeah there's been little things over the years. But architecturally, pretty locked in. Like backup cams came in due to requirements. Stability control came in 2011.

But this is awesome as an owner because you can still easily get parts for your old ass van. And there's tons of videos out there on repairs if you need it.

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happyevil@reddit

You day that like the First Transit isn't the best selling cargo van in the world, lol

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stevolutionary7@reddit

Oh, it's good alright. I couldn't think of anything to complain about beside the brand.

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RKRagan@reddit

Why the Transit hate? I went from a ProMaster to a 3500 Transit and it is great. I’ve put 39,000 miles on it. No issues. PLENTY of power. Mine is the tall and long cargo version. Great work van.

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stevolutionary7@reddit

Honestly, I couldn't think of any problems that I know of so I just went with the tried and true brand identity nonsense.

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penguinchem13@reddit

Trades keep it alive

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PotatoDrives@reddit

We just bought one for work and it wins against all the other work vans in terms of overall cost of ownership.

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CrypticQuery@reddit

Undoubtedly the winner!

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Leneord1@reddit

It's the epitome of giving customers what they want. It's quite literally just a work vehicle that doesn't need to be flashy or anything modern or futuristic

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AlpineTG@reddit

Lexus IS. Basically the same car from 2013 with improvements. I had a 2005 is300, 2015 is250, and currently a 2023 is500. All have been fantastic cars

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ImNotEazy@reddit

Viper Truck. Not sure who the owners are but every one I see is still in good condition, and it has an exotic car engine, but they can be daily driven or Hooned.

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ratrodder49@reddit

I will own one, someday…

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NerdyKyogre@reddit

Username checks out.

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sultan_of_gin@reddit

What about Volvo 240? Production started in 1974 and the design was heavily based on the older 100 -series. They made them until 1993 and I’d say it was still competitive at least in the late 80’s.

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IISerpentineII@reddit

The 2/7/940 platforms are absolute tanks. Also, people are able to make absolutely stupid power on the B230FT with stock internals. They were called the Flying Brick back in the day for a reason, lol

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Spacetweed@reddit

My favorite 240 bit it that volvo developed it's replacement (the 700 series), produced it's replacement, and ceased production on it's replacement all while the 240 was still being made.

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sultan_of_gin@reddit

Would be nice to see how their pricing compared. Sure the 740 has a bit more ”modern” design both in exterior and interior, but they shared exactly the same powertrain and from my experience they drive about the same so maybe the 240 just had better value for money.

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Moynia@reddit

Even the 940 the "successor to the successor" barely eeked out like 2 years of sales pasted the 240 in the US, its nuts.

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Uni_tasker@reddit (OP)

The 240 really came into its own in the 80s. When people think about a 240, they usually picture the refresh with rectangular headlights and the slightly larger grille. I’d also say the same thing about the Saab 900, it debuted in the 1979 but the late ‘80s refresh with the more sloped front end and larger bumper seem more memorable.

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MattTheMechan1c@reddit

A Ferrari 458. It debuted in 2009 and still looks modern by today’s standards. It also has respectable performance that’s not far off from the 488 and F8.

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1orange2oranges@reddit

Mazda MX-5/Miata. Debuted in 1989 and ran eight years in the first body style. The NB second-gen is different, yes, but relies very heavily on the original chassis, such that many parts are interchangeable. It carried through 2005.

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Previous_Composer934@reddit

it also didn't get a gas light until 2004

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OptionXIII@reddit

If it's not an exterior body panel, the safe bet is it's interchangeable across that 15 year range. It's just a matter of knowing which parts to bring in as a matching set so they all work together.

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Bradymyhero@reddit

Can't believe nobody is mentioning the Macan. It's been on sale about 9 years now

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misteakswhirmaid@reddit

Current gen 4RUNNER. Fourteenth year in production. Still the one . . .

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richardmartin@reddit

I have some news to break to you...

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SoftMushyStool@reddit

Wotm8

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thrice_already_today@reddit

Somehow the Ford Flex went from being the most hideous monstrosity on the road, to pretty much the standard design of all SUV/Crossovers.

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HoosierCaliAndy@reddit

I have always been a huge fan of the flex. I rented one way back in 2011 for a road trip and it was great. The ecoboost version is a sleeper also.

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yloduck1@reddit

We owned a 2012 Flex EcoBoost Limited AWD. Bought it new and put 215k miles on it.

Things we could do with the Flex:

2k mile road trips. Repeatedly. Including multiple ski trips to CO with 5 people plus gear plus a Thule ski box on the roof. Fully loaded could sustain 90+ mph across Iowa, Nebraska, and CO. Turbos are also a bonus when you're at altitudes of 10k. An absolute tiger in the snow with proper winter tires.
Move furniture and gear. Cavernous when the seats are folded down.
Move 7 people easily. Small adults could even ride in row 3
Tow trailers. Effortlessly handle anything under 4k lbs
Drag race. Ran a dead heat with my buddy's SQ5 up to 80mph.

It is far and away my family's favorite vehicle of all time. We've owned lots of vehicles from many different OEMs. My kids still talk about how they miss this one.

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elitemouse@reddit

Damn blud just talked me into buying my next winter beater

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victorinseattle@reddit

I got one fully loaded from Hertz with the AWD 365hp TT ecoboost and that car was GLORIOUS. amazing road tripper and supremely comfortable.

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HoosierCaliAndy@reddit

For real. I always rent a car for long road trips. I've done a new bronco, Buick enclaves, all kinds of SUVs and crossovers, but the flex will always stand out at the most comfortable and capable vehicle I ever rented.

Never owned one, but I've kind of been obsessed with them for the past decade or so. I have an alert set up whenever an ecoboost one goes on sale near me.

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andrew2018022@reddit

Was about to say, the flex was ahead of its time. If it released in 2024 it would just be the “latest and greatest futuristic design”

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Recoil42@reddit

The Honda Crosstour also fits that description.

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Staveoffsuicide@reddit

Yes and no. It was a precursor but it’s honestly hideous and it showed what not to do. Meanwhile from the flex we got more squared vehicles and lettering in the back

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Recoil42@reddit

it showed what not to do

I'm not sure how to break it to you that literally every single OEM on the planet is trying to figure out how to make 'sportback' SUVs and 'lifted' sedan-coupes right now.

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Staveoffsuicide@reddit

Oh you’re talking to the wrong guy I think they’re all hideous they’ve never been my thing and when it started to catch on ala bmw x4 or 6 whatever was first came out I was dumbfounded

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Recoil42@reddit

Doesn't matter what you think. They sell, and they are generally where the industry is going. Your personal opinion here is immaterial. What you don't want isn't "what not to do."

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Staveoffsuicide@reddit

Oh I don’t care personally the market demands it and there are other options I was just caught off guard initially which was years ago

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Pitiful-Mobile-3144@reddit

Especially for electric vehicles, they all have that same crossover/wagon look

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ArcticBP@reddit

Yeah, it was widely mocked when it came out but I think if out were released now, it’d be received differently

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Recoil42@reddit

Sure. Look at the Envista, one of the most well-liked cars of 2024.

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18voltbattery@reddit

Nah, that’s an abomination

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Recoil42@reddit

Abominations are in right now, bud.

'Crossovers' are by far the ruling segment across the entire industry. Literally every single OEM on the planet is trying to figure out how to make 'sportback' SUVs and 'lifted' sedan-coupes or to frankenstein their way to some kind of pseudo-aerodynamic compromise. Ferrari makes the Purosangue, Toyota makes the Crown, one of the best-selling EVs in China is this, and the new Macan looks like this.

The Crosstour was just the first one, early to the party.

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Mathblasta@reddit

I don't know why you're getting downvoted, the BMW x6 of today looks exactly the same...

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Riptrack13@reddit

Basically looks like a Toyota crown...

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I_like_cake_7@reddit

At least the Crosstour was a true liftback. It infuriates me that Toyota chose to make the Crown a sedan and not a liftback.

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Sunexus@reddit

At least we have the Crown Signia now.

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pm-me-racecars@reddit

Signia Balls!

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I_like_cake_7@reddit

I do like the Crown Signia quite a bit. It’s a bit of a shame that the SUV/wagon form factor is 3-4 mpg less efficient on paper than the Crown, but I think the extra practicality will be worth the minor fuel economy penalty to most people who are looking for this sort of vehicle. I hope it does well for Toyota.

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Drzhivago138@reddit

Story of most every sedan since 2012ish.

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burrgerwolf@reddit

Shame you’re getting downvoted because it’s true.

In the same vein a modern Pontiac Aztek could do well.

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uchigaytana@reddit

I would even argue that the Flex looks better than the majority of SUVs on the road today. Plus, with a tune, some of the higher trims could even beat the Mustang of the time for straight-line speed.

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thrice_already_today@reddit

Yeah, the s195 mustangs weren't great performance machines. Esthetically they were beautiful when they came out, but that 4.6L 3V took a lot of modification just to make it feel exciting.

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GhostofBobStoops@reddit

Try the 3V 4.6 in an F-150. Then add oversized tires.

I swear to God a drag race between my truck and a 300 pound fat man would be a dead heat

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RoseHil@reddit

The flex is the closest thing we have to an American market/American made station wagon. It's absolutely not the standard shape, most everything is still a misshapen egg or melted soap bar. I love the flex look but have not sat in one, the basic shape though, in theory, leaves huge room available versus it's footprint and height.

I would argue the crosstour is absolutely the market direction. New evs are looking like this all over the place.

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daxelkurtz@reddit

My cousin took his 458 to track. His daughter and her boyfriend came along in the family Flex.

He let the boyfriend do hot laps in it.

The track said he set a new record for quickest lap... in a Flex.

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FNA_Couster@reddit

They're surprisingly quick for what they are but Lord do they piss gas. They also weigh like 5000 pounds which is almost double what I would've guessed.

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Sunfuels@reddit

You would have guessed a 3 row crossover weighed less than a Honda civic?

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FNA_Couster@reddit

I used to drive a Ford Edge which was higher and bigger and that was "only" 4000, so I'd always assumed the Flex was 3500 or so

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Titan0917@reddit

You might want to check the numbers again. The Edge is smaller than the Flex

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quantum-quetzal@reddit

I used to drive a Ford Edge which was higher and bigger

The Edge is the same height and width as the Flex, but the Flex is 13 inches longer.

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thrice_already_today@reddit

Huh..weird Flex...

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jcanfbi@reddit

If I had gold ...

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WillSuckDick4Coffee@reddit

I've always wanted to do a lap in my Flex. It's surprisingly nimble for what it is.

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Uni_tasker@reddit (OP)

I thought it was a pretty unique design at the time, but I was also one of those people that liked the Scion XB. The Flex wasn’t a very popular car in my area, but I could always point it out in the sea of late ‘00s and early ‘10s blobby CUVs.

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bschmidt25@reddit

I kind of miss the mid-2000s boxes on wheels: Scion xB, Nissan Cube, Honda Element. Probably not great for fuel economy, but they were unique in a sea of blobs.

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sinkrate@reddit

The Bronco Sport keeps that legacy alive :)

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Tactically_Fat@reddit

re-releases of any of those vehicles would sell like proverbial hot-cakes.

Other car that was way ahead of it's time was the Pontiac Aztec.

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Kavani18@reddit

At least we still have the Soul. I know it isn’t great, but it’s stayed true to its purpose

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durrtyurr@reddit

I've been in the sales offices of two different Honda dealerships in two states. They both had boards on the wall of the most desirable trade-ins. The Element was #1 on both lists.

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okcumputer@reddit

I absolutely fucking loved my 05 xB.

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Trades46@reddit

When "weird Flex" becomes the norm indeed. The boxy upright design ironically enough migrated to its Explorer stablemate in many ways, but honestly Ford can redesign the Flex to replace the Edge in its lineup and nobody would say a thing.

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FoofaFighters@reddit

The new Santa Fe almost looks like it came off the same line as the Flex.

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Slowmyke@reddit

I always liked the looks. I can't stand most of what people think is attractive. Everything is so fussy, but the flex was understated.

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Nordicpunk@reddit

Those came out when I was in HS and I thought they were super cool at the time.

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arcticrobot@reddit

I don't know, I loved Flex. It was simplistic, utilitarian, spacious.

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jew_biscuits@reddit

Not my taste but agree, a neat and cool-looking design that continues to age well. Always nod wisely when i see one on the road these days lol

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arcticrobot@reddit

Lexus RC F is very ancient design that still competes in IMSA and now WEC GT classes. And even winning championships.

I will pretend this is r/imsa and r/wec, not r/cars.

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dsac@reddit

that interior is not competitive tho

touchpad UI navigation? in 2024?

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SkylineRSR@reddit

Yeah I’m kinda mad about that

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Fart_Leviathan@reddit

and r/wec

I'm not sure you can pretend that if you want to talk about the Lexus being competitive instead of a complete piece of shit.

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No-Stretch-1854@reddit

2014 isn’t old

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Key_Budget9267@reddit

The Lexus IS. At this point, the design is over 10 years old, yet they still keep selling them in decent numbers.

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l322sc@reddit

2025 Durangos are out now and are still riding on the same platform from 2011. They had a refresh in 2014 and again in 2021. They have wireless carplay, wireless charging, modern safety features and still feel and drive very modern. I think they are still competitive.

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Ayatori@reddit

The WRX STI at the time of its axing was basically completely untouched in the performance department since its inception in 1994, and if it was still produced today, it would still be completely in-line with the few hot hatches in production like the CTR and Golf R

Feels weird to talk about the STI like a relic of the past.

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Phlizza@reddit

Wasn't the Evo better in almost every performance metric up until the EvoX got killed?

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Asian_Juan@reddit

Mitsubishi Delica L300 built and designed in the 1980s and still remains to be the main workhorse van and truck in Indonesia and Philippines. It also recently had an new turbo charged diesel engine to comply with Euro 4 emissions

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UltimaRS800@reddit

GTR R35

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Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit

Everyone is focusing on the 16 year old R35 now being surpassed by its competitors, but OP asked about past time periods as well, so this definitely fits. The R35 was more than a full generation ahead of sports cars and supercars that cost 2x or 3x as much when it was released. For example, it was faster than a 430 Scuderia or a 911 Turbo in its release year. Almost every competitor later switched to the same forced induction + DCT (sometimes, + AWD) formula to keep up.

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DepthHour1669@reddit

AWD Turbo V6 with a DCT:

R35: 2007

296 GTB, Artura: 2022

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kmj442@reddit

Certainly not disagreeing with the fact that its still a great car, but now the competition has caught up and surpassed it in many ways. I have a feeling if the corvette doesn't innovate we'll be saying the same thing about the C8 in nearly 20 years.

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djsnoopmike@reddit

corvette doesn't innovate

When have they never?

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UltimaRS800@reddit

Z versions of Corvettes have been fucking supercars worth 3x it's price both performance (track and straight) and relability wise since like C4.

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TH3GINJANINJA@reddit

i think it’s crazy to say the c8 hasn’t innovated since it’s been around. first we got the c8 as a whole, a rear engine. then, shown a flat plane crank z06, another z06 is either released or has been shown off with more power, and the E-ray is slowly making its way into the market. THAT is innovation.

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kmj442@reddit

I think the E-ray was the most unexpected. From normal corvette operations we generally see a Z06, ZR1, etc...higher power, tracky type releases that go for premiums, kind of like the "nismo GTR" type thing. It's not that its not innovative its was just all planned/expected except for maybe the E-Ray, that is truly a new addition to the corvette lineup and very innovative.

I was just coming from it at the same angle as the GTR, when the GTR was new it was VERY disruptive to its segment, it punched significantly higher than its weightclass, just like the C8 did/does. Its an incredible amount of car for the price and a welcome addition to the fight.

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Motohvayshun@reddit

lol Corvettes always innovate. More money is poured into Corvette R and D than perhaps any other sports car aside from Porsche.

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Martbern@reddit

Really? Every other new sports car for the same price will beat it, no?

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UltimaRS800@reddit

No.

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Martbern@reddit

in what metric and for what price? We are talking new here right?

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ob_knoxious@reddit

To be clear when the GTR was new no new car at that price beat it or got close for the first 5 or so year and it was extremely competitive for a decade. It was as groundbreaking as the C8 and C8 Z06 would be more than a decade later.

A base 992.2 is slightly more expensive than the base GTR and is slower in most metrics (although the 911 has never been about topping the charts). The AMG GT is around that price and is slower in a straight line at least. The outgoing F Type R is slower and priced only slightly less than a GTR before options.

So yeah if you have ~$120,000 and want a track performance sports car the now 17-year old R35 GTR is still somewhat competitive in the segment.

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UltimaRS800@reddit

Did Merc not just build a 4 banger AMG GT with almost the same base price as GTR?

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Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit

In Australia in 2024 we don't have super old vans like you guys, so depending on your definition:

Ford Ranger (if you count all the T6 as the same car, 2011), if not probably the Mazda6 (2012)

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macdokie@reddit

Volvo 850 and later V70.

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smoshr@reddit

Second generation CX5 introduced in 2017. Used a heavily revised version of the first generation platform and it’s been basically the same up to the 2025MY. Some additions here and there like the turbo engine in 2019 and a mid cycle refresh in 2022, but no major platform revisions. Arguably still a very usable CUV as long as the size and average fuel economy is something that can be accepted.

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animealt46@reddit

Mazda: We have a successor, please stop buying the CX5.

Customers: nah.

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MSAAyylmao@reddit

Thank goodness the customers said no, damn torsion beam rear suspension is a blight on the platform.

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Quizzie@reddit

I was looking for this one. I know it’s a Reddit meme at this point to hype up Mazda, but the CX-5 is still mostly competitive in its class despite its age and close ties to its predecessor. The motors and transmission could really use an update but the steering is fantastic for EPAS and the ride has a positive sportiness to it at normal speeds. It’s also relatively quiet inside, something that they really improved on from the first gen iirc.

I’m pretty sure the CX-50 was supposed to replace the CX-5 in the way that the new double digit models have all replaced their single digit counterparts, but the fact that Mazda hasn’t let go of the CX-5 is partially a testament to its popularity.

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BTTWchungus@reddit

All they really have to do is put the CX50 body and pre-refresh steering with the CX5's chassis and interior together.

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Jermanthony@reddit

I dont understand the question

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TunakTun633@reddit

This is an interesting question because there are many cars that have seen a few redesigns on an old platform. The Audi A4 is basically at the top of its class, and although it's on "MLB Evo" it shares most dimensions with the MLB-based car that debuted in 2008. In 2017, it saw new electronics, a new powertrain, and... Whatever turned MLB into MLB Evo. Is it a 17-year-old car for this reason, or an 8-year-old car? This goes for basically anything MLB-based.

To stretch the limits even further, the Toyobaru that debuted in 2012 is on a heavily re-engineered 2008-2011 Impreza platform.

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ShadyDrunks@reddit

lol suburban has been made for like 100 years straight

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Drzhivago138@reddit

The Suburban name has been used by GM for 90 years, and before that was in use by other manufacturers. But today's has no relation to the original.

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juttep1@reddit

My 2010 Prius still gets 50mpg on regular pump gas, is comfortable and quiet, and has many modern amenities such as backup camera, hill start assist, emergency accident notification, heated seats, and Bluetooth audio. it is also incredibly cheap to operate. Some models with more options even has lane keep assist and self parking capabilities. Yeah the newer prii.might get slightly better mpg but I think for being 15 years old it's still very competitive and a modern design that has aged well and remains highly practical.

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kable1202@reddit

My European brain really cannot really wrap itself around an XC-90 being considered/indexed as a mid-size SUV. Yes I know compared to a Durango it’s much smaller. But DAMN, when I think about a mid size I think Q5/X3/XC-60

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Uni_tasker@reddit (OP)

If you compare an XC90 with a standard midsize Toyota Camry it is around the same length. But yeah, we North Americans have a pretty stark difference for what we consider small and large. I think the VW Golf is considered a medium sized vehicle in Europe, which is quite amusing to me since the Golf is smaller than 90% of what I see on the road. The best-selling Camry is 2 feet longer than a Golf!

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kable1202@reddit

I mean, the XC-90 (technically) also is a 7-seater. And in Europe I think nobody would consider a 7-seater a medium sized car.

But true, the external measurements are something different. And of course it always is highly subjective: I would call a normal (non-variant) Golf a smaller car, not a small one, but not a medium sized one. This for me is the gold variant/Octavia/A4/3 series,… (even though the latter are a touch larger than the Octavia/Golf Variant).

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Suspicious_Walk_704@reddit

Honda Clarity Plug-in Hybrid

Discontinued in 2021. Even today, there are hardly any vehicles that offer 47+ miles of EV range. Plus great interior and comfortable ride.

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andrewia@reddit

My brother had one for a while, and although it had good range, it didn't like to run from the battery and often kicked on the engine. The partial touchscreen climate controls borrowed from the Civic were also not great, nor the poor rear visibility. I could see the advantage of a phev with less range but a better ux and more powerful motor.

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acog@reddit

The recently discontinued Charger and Challenger. Their chassis dated back to the Mercedes acquisition but the older they got the more they dominated in sales vs Mustang and Camaro.

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amorlerian@reddit

Charger isn't really the same segment though, it is a much larger 4 door car.

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dcchambers@reddit

As much as Reddit loves to hate on it, the Jeep Grand Cherokee WK2 was in production from 2010-2022 with tasteful updates throughout the years. Later model year WK2s are still among the best looking SUVs on the road IMO and I think the new Grand Cherokees regressed in styling.

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OgZero@reddit

The Corvette C5 Z06, go to any track day and the fastest laptimes are probably being put down by one of these. Just too good IMO, the builds are simple, parts readily available... not much needed to make them monsters. Even stock the C5Z is competitive, the track modified Type R that used to track still couldn't really touch a C5Z driven by a good driver (stock or modified).

I'm not even a Vette guy but if I wanna go fast on the track for the best price possible... I'm gonna be a Vette guy. 😁

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solo118@reddit

The XC90 is a fantastic SUV, had 2 of them. For '25 they revised it pretty heavily so we still have an ICE option. Smart move, because not everybody wants all EV

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STERFRY333@reddit

Chevy squarebody. From '74 to '87

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wimpires@reddit

What about the Porsche 718, the ars are basically refreshed 981's which are themselves built heavily on the 991 (from 2011). So much so that up until very recently a brand new Cayman would have come with a CD drive in the centre console.

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Suspicious_Walk_704@reddit

2004 Honda CR-V.

The gear changer was on the dashboard (like many other vehicles) which freed up space in the center. The trunk had picnic table and extra storage for a spare tire or muddy clothes.

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mishap1@reddit

Hasn't the steering column shifter been a thing (and somehow remains a thing) on pickups and SUVs for forever?

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Drzhivago138@reddit

Yes, and it's coming back on some models that historically didn't have one. Though it's not so much the big "ka-chunk" shifter that has a physical connection to the transmission, more an electronic return-to-center stalk.

The CR-V's wasn't column-mounted, it was dash-mounted so they could use the same column assembly for auto) and manual models.

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srsbsnssss@reddit

elise!

like the miata, no competition could touch it from a commercial success perspective

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Taffr19@reddit

In the hot-hatch class I’d say VW definitely pioneered that segment with the Rabbit GTI. Hatchbacks may have existed before but VW made it sporty and fun and all other manufacturers hopped on the bandwagon because the potential of a compact, nimble and powerful hatchback was not only cost effective for the manufacturer and affordable for the common working class it was a memorable vehicle to drive. Granted with the market shifting to SUV and trucks it’s on its way out I’m sure especially with what the MSRP being out of touch but it had a great run for 42 years with multiple variants.

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4x4NDAD1@reddit

Any VW R32

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Sesspool@reddit

Idk if its competitive or our elderly population has just increased

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HP_594@reddit

The S550 is still a very good Mustang in 2024

It was a huge leap from the S197, in many ways. The removal of the V6 and the addition of the Ecoboost I4 was a significant change, since it made the car lighter, effectively improving the handling, and it was powerful enough to be driven as a sports car, with the added benefit of improved FE (emphasizing here on “sports car”)

Just like you mentioned about the XC90, I’m pretty sure the S650 had underpinnings from the S550

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RichardNixon345@reddit

The S550 was still available with the V6 from 15-17.

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TwoPlanksOnPowder@reddit

Indeed it was, and I recently learned that you can tell the difference between a V6 model and an Ecoboost (without waiting to hear the sound). The V6 midels have a tricolor behind the pony badge on the rear, while the Ecoboost models don't

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shellmiro@reddit

Tbf the S650 is basically a cosmetic facelift with a few mechanical improvements thrown in so..

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TheReaperSovereign@reddit

Plus in like 2017 you could get a Mustang gt under 30k

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I_love_quiche@reddit

Do you mean 2027?

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Reduxalicious@reddit

I think there was a Dealer around that time as well that would give you a bare bones Super Charged GT as well for like $40K? Or something around there.

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avoidhugeships@reddit

S650 is not really a new model. It just has some cosmetic changes.

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Specialist-Size9368@reddit

Lotus Esprit
1976-2004, but by 04 it wasn't competitive. At that point it was kept around for US Lotus dealers to have something to sell. It tended to be less powerful than its competition, but was also cheaper and lighter.

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_HKB_@reddit

Not the oldest but IMO the Dodge Durango and Jeep Grand Cherokee has aged pretty well especially the HEMI models, one of the few modern SUV models that I actually like

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LBCvalenz562@reddit

Terminator Cobra

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MichiganCarNut@reddit

2001 996 GT2

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ratrodder49@reddit

The Chrysler 300 was largely unchanged from 2011 to 2023, save for a minor facelift in 2015 and the loss of the NAG1 five speed auto in favor of the ZF eight speed.

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Nomdeplum73@reddit

Tesla Model S

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YANGxGANG@reddit

MB G-Class looked the same from 1979-2019 and are absolute tanks. 80% of them are still on the road and with the prices of new mid-tier SUVs reaching 6-figures, used ones are looking more attractive to the general public. Ones before the 2019 refresh are basically MB parts-bin cars that have relatively cheap replacement parts.

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Difficult_Eggplant4u@reddit

Competitive in what way, I think that matters a bit here. For example, you could take a 2000 Silverado or F150, and, if it was in good condition, it would be very competitive in doing what a truck needs to do. Will it set any records? No. But, pick up stuff, tow something, or carry something? Sure, perfect. It's a truck, not a fancy SUV.

Do you mean same model made for a long time and competitive with a current car/truck? You could pick any Camry and they last forever, very roomy and competitive against any other in it's class.

How about the Avalon? Very roomy, luxurious enough, quick enough, etc. I'd take one any day as a daily driver. Last forever as well.

Lexus R350 is another good one. Can go back 10 years and put it up against most, and still do very well in any category.

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toefungi@reddit

Old 7.3 Fords from the 90s are still working and hauling just as heavy as loads as modern diesels.

Sure they take an extra couple seconds to get to speed and they have less features than modern 3/4 and 1 tons, but they are still every bit as much of a work horse. And many would argue, more reliable than modern diesels.

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g-4-ces@reddit

Jeep Wrangler

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DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit

Back to back 10 year cycles.

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HoosierCaliAndy@reddit

Jeep Cherokee XJ is, in my opinion, one of the best vehicles ever made. As far as off road capabilities go anyway. It's also bulletproof.

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qwertzn@reddit

70 Series Land Cruiser, Lada Niva

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R1200@reddit

BW Westfalia camper. Nothing matches its utility and footprint

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Dud3_Abid3s@reddit

The Jeep Wrangler…EASILY.

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Shomegrown@reddit

GT-R

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PBP2024@reddit

Mazda CX-5

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Neelix-And-Chill@reddit

Gen 2 Toyota Tacoma. Last year was basically a decade ago and I still think it’s the best damn truck you can get. Resale values agree.

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SkepticalAstronaut@reddit

Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio. I own a 2023 and I chose it over a M3. Best car I've ever owned or driven. It's only had minor updates since 2016.

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MrWestReanimator@reddit

☝🏻

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SystematicHydromatic@reddit

Volvo's are crap. They are Chinese owned now and we all know what that means for quality.

Toyota and Lexus trucks have always been the one that stands out.

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Hyyyyh@reddit

Alfa Romeo Giulia.

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kobrons@reddit

The fiat ducato. The current model is from 2006 and still compares pretty well against most of the competition.

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IllustriousSteam@reddit

Gen 1 Honda Insight. From the wiki: “The first generation Insight was the most fuel efficient gasoline-powered car available in the U.S. without plug-in capability for the length of its production run and up until December 2015, when it was surpassed by the 2016 Toyota Prius Eco.”

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Solon_City_Schools@reddit

D40 frontier, 5th gen 4Runner, Ram classic, 70 series Land Cruiser, and LX570 are vehicles with super long life cycles in the 4x4/truck space.

Then of course you have the timeless juggernaut that is the VW Beetle.

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