Is it me or ABCs (American born Chinese) are often more anti-CCP than even your average American is?
Posted by Joseph_Suaalii@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 204 comments
Of course, I’d expect most ABCs to be anti CCP given they grew up with democratic American values. Though at the same time I’ve noticed some of the most virulent anti CCP activists or pro HK democracy etc are second generation Chinese Americans, and while most Americans obviously oppose the CCP many often don’t have virulent feelings against it etc.
CorneliusSoctifo@reddit
The same way as Eastern Europeans, especially those from Warsaw pact nations tend to be more anti-communist?
funny how that works
tyoma@reddit
I believe the quote is something like “the only people to advocate for communism have never had to live under it”.
RelevantJackWhite@reddit
Polling in eastern Europe shows that many people miss it, especially compared to the mess they're living under now
tyoma@reddit
It looks like everywhere except Russia itself overwhelmingly prefers a free market economy: https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/10/15/european-public-opinion-three-decades-after-the-fall-of-communism/
RelevantJackWhite@reddit
Ukraine as well. There are a number of metrics in your link that show there is significant nostalgia for that system.
misanthpope@reddit
Yeah, the part occupied by Russians reflects Russian views on the glorious past when russians could rape and kill the lesser people.
boulevardofdef@reddit
I wonder how much of that is based on childhood nostalgia. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. If you were 17 then, you're 50 today. So everyone 50 and younger has memories of communism exclusively from when they were kids, if they have memories at all.
I know from experience that this is an unpopular opinion, but I personally am extremely skeptical of people's positive memories of anything from when they were children.
evilone17@reddit
I'm also extremely skeptical of the opposite. Vehemently against communism though your parents moved out of Eastern Europe when you were a child? I'm going to believe you and your parents were fed a heavy dose of American propaganda.
pita4912@reddit
Probably all of it. “The past was never better, you were just a child” is my current operating opinion for those that yearn for the simpler times. Millennials think the best time was the 90’s and early 00s. Gen X the late 70s early 80s. Boomers the 50s- 60’s.
Figgler@reddit
It depends on the country. I bet Belarus wouldn’t mind being back in the USSR but I really doubt Poland would.
anneofgraygardens@reddit
i was a peace corps volunteer in rural Eastern Europe and I assure you that plenty of people who lived under communism miss the good ol' days, back when everyone had a job and could take a holiday to the seaside every summer. and when, according to my colleagues, kids were respectful and didn't talk back.
I attribute like 75% of this to rose-colored glasses, but without the command economy propping up a lot of industries, a lot of jobs disappeared, especially in rural areas. (This is not a defense of the system, just an observation of what happened.)
misanthpope@reddit
Those are the people who didn't get killed by the state or repressed enough to flee abroad.
There are people missing Nazi Germany, too.
JakeVonFurth@reddit
That's just regular rose tinted glasses things. Here, watch:
anneofgraygardens@reddit
yes, that's what I said.
But in actual factual reality, a lot of jobs disappeared because they were propped up by the government. The village I did my training in used to have a population of 2000 people and was home to a tobacco company that employed a lot of the people in town. Communism ended, tobacco company goes out of business, eventually pretty much everyone who can moves out out the village. These days there are like 600 people in the village and most of the houses are empty and falling apart.
Did communism work? nah. But for those 600 people still living in the village, it's not hard to understand why they think things were better back then.
InterestingWork912@reddit
I observed the same thing in Hungary. I spent a bit of time in a very poor area 2 hrs outside of Budapest -and most of those folks wanted communism back because when communism fell their jobs disappeared. I don’t think that means communism worked - it just showed that the west didn’t do much to help these areas economically recover. I remember asking someone if they felt more free, and they looked at my like I had a third eye. They basically said they don’t care about freedom, they just wanted a job.
Kellosian@reddit
Also a lot of post-Soviet nations didn't exactly have a great time trying to transition to a liberal capitalist democracy. Russia especially just collapsed into a corrupt, authoritarian oligarchy where all those old government-propped jobs were handed off to oligarchs without even the pretense of "We're doing this for the people"
Bubbly_Safety8791@reddit
Question is about American born Chinese, not immigrants.
rockknocker@reddit
Their parents lived under it.
bfwolf1@reddit
These under 40 yo socialists/communists on Reddit seriously annoy me. Many countries tried communism, and it went terribly. They’re too young to have seen how miserable people were under that system and too far away geographically and culturally to know the still living people who could tell you how miserable it was living under that system. And then they sit there and espouse this nonsense ideology that completely goes against human nature from the comfort of their rich country lifestyle that only exists because of capitalism, and that they don’t appreciate because billionaires exist.
Curmudgy@reddit
To me, much of the problem is that people don't understand why the small scale, ideal communism such as some Israeli kibbutzim, doesn't scale and appears to break down in a prosperous economy, or maybe it's just evolution away from labor intensive farming.
Without understanding why the big communist regimes became authoritarian, and removing the "dictatorship of the proletariat" from the model, it's easy to dismiss those countries as not really being communism.
bfwolf1@reddit
I think much of it would be solved by taking an intro microeconomics course but maybe I’m overestimating the power of education vs learned experience.
People are inherently greedy. We have unlimited wants in a world of limited goods and services. Capitalism leverages that greed to drive prosperity. Communism tries to pretend greed doesn’t exist or can be eliminated in the name of selflessness. It’s no wonder which ideology has been successful.
Mysteryman64@reddit
Top down communism is pretty much always guaranteed to be a failure. Humans are just too slow to respond to signals and the political half of the equation means that small problems often become large crises.
Some forms of socialism might work though. Syndicalism, for example, might work, especially those that focus more on company-specific unions/worker coops rather than industry wide level ones. Since every coop has to compete with every other coop, you still end up with many of the benefits of a market economy, the only thing that changes is how the company profit is divided and how company strategy is selected.
bfwolf1@reddit
I mean, our system allows for a worker owned coop and they do exist in small numbers. But it would be naive to think this could be the dominant model. People will want to invest their money, companies will need investment outside of what their workers can afford. Capital markets are the natural solution.
Mysteryman64@reddit
There are plenty of other methods of raising capital beyond issuing stock. Corporate bonds, standard loans using capital goods as security, and just a general propensity towards larger percentage of held or invested profits.
If you're a consumer of those products (either human or corporate), you might exchange financing in return for a pre-negotiated fixed markup, priority purchasing rights, or any number of other things.
It would be different, but its not inherently unsurmountable.
bfwolf1@reddit
It’s definitely insurmountable if people want to maintain their standard of living. Are we college students talking about how anything is possible or are we serious people talking about continuing economic growth? No country that outlaws 3rd party stock ownership can possible compete in the world economy.
Mysteryman64@reddit
Oh yeah, it's way too fucking late to convert now without massive social upheaval.
It's more of a road not taken thought experiment.
Curmudgy@reddit
Publix is one of the best known “employee owned” companies in the US. Is it an example of communism? I don’t know, because I’m hardly an expert on the subject, but I think it’s an interesting question.
SkiingAway@reddit
Communism (and I use that term very loosely) is possible in a small scale community because people are capable of being relatively egalitarian within their personal relationships.
The rough idea of Dunbar's number is one I agree with - that there's an upper limit on the number of people you are capable of maintaining personal relationships with.
People you have personal relationships with are situations where the "inherent greed" can generally be overcome.
This is why you've got plenty of examples of small tribes/villages and such where they appear to have been able to run a successful group without much structure or greed within the group - personal relations can suppress the greed and maintain enough of a sense of shared well-being.
It's also why it doesn't scale up at all and isn't a way you can structure anything large-scale.
nine_of_swords@reddit
The way I phrase it: "Capitalism relies on self interest to motivate the production of goods and care for others to motivate the general welfare. Communism relies on self interest to motivate the general welfare, and care for others to motivate the production of goods." The issue with care for others is that the power of that motivation drops considerably the larger the group you're supposed to care about. Someone's not going to often put in the same consistent amount of effort to help out some stranger on the other side of the country as they are for their own kid. On a small scale, that care for others can outweigh the self interest, but definitely not on the large scale.
Curmudgy@reddit
That’s an interesting way to put it, and is good food for thought. I like it, thanks.
RiverRedhead@reddit
Kibbutizim are also explicitly opt-in processes with an easily accessible outside economy to draw from if needed. The people who joined and built Kibbutzim were/are really into it, not an entire country kind of along for the ride.
Curmudgy@reddit
Right. But part of my point is that some of them are (or were) more communist than the Soviet Union or Red China ever were - depending on your definition. And people don’t understand or even allow for the difference.
itsthekumar@reddit
They're also tired of late stage capitalism where they're inundated with student loans (if they could even get loans), know a bankruptcy/homelessness is a medical emergency away etc.
bfwolf1@reddit
Capitalism coexists very well with a government provided safety net.
itsthekumar@reddit
There still exists the "donut" where people are "too rich" for certain social services.
And it also depends what the government is willing to provide.
bfwolf1@reddit
Yes, these are all political issues to hash out. But socialism/Communism certainly isn’t the answer.
itsthekumar@reddit
According to you it's not the answer. For some t is.
bfwolf1@reddit
Some think it’s the answer. They are wrong. We have robust evidence to support that. So the question is do people believe in evidence based answers or answer based on their emotions?
PhysicsEagle@reddit
But that wAsn’T ReAl cOMmunISm
ColossusOfChoads@reddit
That's fine and all. But when people extend 'this nonsense ideology' to include universal healthcare, labor unions, free school lunches for poor kids, or higher wages for people at or near the bottom of the socieconomic totem pole, then it's not so fine.
Curmudgy@reddit
How do we educate the people who are convinced Social Security is Communism?
bfwolf1@reddit
Sure, an economic safety net isn’t communism. All the rich capitalist countries have them. It’s just a matter of degree.
I myself am in favor of a UBI.
RelevantJackWhite@reddit
China hasn't gone terribly, as far as economics anyway
Philoso4@reddit
When communism fails, communists say it wasn’t real communism.
When communism does okay, capitalists say it wasn’t real communism.
Reality is damn near every country has a mixed economy. “Pure” capitalism sucks, so does “pure” communism. The question is to what degree do we want to embrace either.
bfwolf1@reddit
When China was actually communist, the people were desperately impoverished. What lifted a billion people out of poverty was them embracing capitalism.
ivhokie12@reddit
Exactly this. Communism got China the worst famine in modern history. Embracing capitalism got them most of what they have. Unfortunately Xi is going the wrong way.
AegisofOregon@reddit
They're not actually socialist, as far as that goes. A more apt description would probably be mercantilist fascism.
AegisofOregon@reddit
Gospel of envy is crazy popular on reddit
theCaitiff@reddit
As an over 40 "socialist" I understand basic negotiation. You ask big, they offer low, you settle in the middle. If your initial ask is where you're eventually willing to settle, you will never get close to that number and look like an asshole who is unwilling to negotiate or compromise.
Currently the US is offering a 7.25/hr minimum wage, no health care, unaffordable housing, and a pretty racist police state.
In return I am demanding state run healthcare, subsidized housing, and a whole bunch of other radical demands.
But I'm an honest enough man, we can't all get what we want. If we can compromise and eventually meet in the middle on wage and price controls that represent a more equitable distribution of resources, I could probably tell my kids "well, we tried and we did the best we could" and go home.
So come to the table and negotiate in good faith, the communists will settle down and go home as soon as the deal they're offered makes them feel included in the new world order.
Working_Mulberry8476@reddit
The most right wing conspiracy theory free market no regulations get rid of all illegals libertarian I ever met grew up in Soviet bloc Germany and moved here as a teenager after the wall fell.
backintow3rs@reddit
Calling it a conspiracy theory when it’s literally the model that overtook and destroyed the Soviet Union is insane
The planned economies of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan wept at the sight of our ice cream ships
Working_Mulberry8476@reddit
I was mixing in all his kooky beliefs into one sentence. He believed in all the Q anon, government is invading Texas, weather control machines, and Jewish space laser type garbage. THAT conspiracy bull.
Jamsster@reddit
Anyone that leaves any country because of political ideology honestly. Expats of a country are more likely to trash on them
bjanas@reddit
I worked for a (very successful, in a sales context position) Eastern European guy. Probably around 50 years old, maybe a bit older, but grew up under communism.
That dude is by far the most vocally "RAH RAH AMERICA! YAY CALITALISM!" person I have ever known. He made a point to bring it up, all the time. I'm glad he's so happy to be here, but gosh it became a lot, at times.
nasa258e@reddit
Or Cuban Americans
astro124@reddit
Yeah my grandmother refuses to ever go back, even to visit
polelover44@reddit
Miami Cubans as well
duke_awapuhi@reddit
Probably. In the Bay Area you’ll see anti-CCP flyers occasionally
Wooden_Cold_8084@reddit
I thought that was more true in the past, when most arrived either prior to the establishment of the CCP, or as dissidents? A lot originating HK, Taiwan, etc.
Though, with China's recent success, even some of those have become more pro-China nationalistic. They've gone through great lengths to get the Chinese diaspora on their side.
c3534l@reddit
There was a Pew (I think?) study not that long ago. You are statistically correct. The first generation of Chinese people do not like the Chinese goverment at all. Most East Asian immigrants retain positive views of their ancestor's country, but China stands out as being particularly unfavorable and Taiwan being particularly favorable.
CatOfGrey@reddit
Me: Southern California's "San Gabriel Valley". I'm a pasty, middle-aged Viking in an Area that is well over half Asian, most of them Chinese.
You're understanding is generally correct, but the situation is quirky.
In my understanding, Chinese immigration was mostly from Taiwan, or Hong Kong. They are usually very anti-CCP. That immigration flow has never stopped. But gradually, there has been a material immigration flow from the mainland. And those folks, well, it's complicated.
On outward appearances, immigrants from the PRC are usually supportive of the Chinese Communist Party. They have been raised with a lifetime of Chinese education, and I have had discussions where misconceptions of the USA are addressed, usually issues of US military overreach, though I've also found that they often have misconceptions about working conditions in the US. I remember telling an international college student that we have material regulations mandating worker safety, for example.
However, it's also important to know that immigrants from the Mainland are still very much under pressure from their home nation. If a Mexican immigrant is not supportive of the current Mexican leadership, I have never heard of any consequence. But PRC immigrants risk getting reported by other PRC immigrants (cultural norms!) and there are supposedly actual PRC agents observing and living in the USA, and I recall news reports of recalling visas, or threats on people's families back home, if folks are actively protesting the CCP in the USA.
A common scam in this area is "the random robo-call in Chinese". This scam is designed for PRC immigrants, but many people get them. The message is in Mandarin, but I understand that the caller basically says "This is the government. You need to get us money now." and people are culturally programmed, that they are highly motivated to pay the extra money, even if it's just a scam. It's apparently much more successful than a US-based "IRS scam", because the victims are extremely unlikely to reject orders from the CCP, even if they are far removed from usual business. You know that the IRS doesn't want Apple gift cards. But the corresponding situation with the CCP is not the same - they are used to corruption, and the cost of hoping it's fake is much higher, when there is always the potential of getting punished while abroad, along with threats against family at home.
And so, on certain days, we might have anti-CCP protests, with substantial counter protests. Violence is rare. I have heard stories of a Mainland resident trying to use the local government to force their next-door neighbor to stop displaying their Taiwanese flag.
flippythemaster@reddit
In a similar phenomenon, Cuban Americans who fled the communist regime tend to be highly conservative as a result of the pendulum swinging the opposite direction. They’re highly skeptical of anything that smacks of social welfare.
shnanogans@reddit
Honestly, I really haven’t heard any of my non American Chinese friends/acquaintances say much about the Chinese government at all. I remember in high school, my ABC classmates would complain when they had to spend a bunch of time in China over winter break to see extended family instead of spending it with their friends here, haha. I think the general American consensus about the CCP is “yeah they’re wack” regardless of ethnicity.
7yearlurkernowposter@reddit
Why wouldn’t they be? They grew up knowing of the horrors.
osama_bin_guapin@reddit
I’d imagine that it’s similar to Cuban families in Florida and elsewhere. If you come from a family that escaped dictatorship, then chances are you have pretty negative feelings about that dictatorship on their behalf
BigMaraJeff2@reddit
Should see what FBI houston posted about the CCP
BigMaraJeff2@reddit
Should see what FBI houston posted about the CCP
LeResist@reddit
I mean yeah because if someone supports the CCP heavily they'd just live in China. Lots of Chinese Americans aren't Han either. Many of them are Cantonese and really don't have any connection to the CCP. People typically come to America for a "better life" so they likely aren't that fond of their home country. You see this a lot with Vietnamese people. I'm not viet but my friend is and she says most of the Vietnamese people in the US are from south Vietnam (the side supported by the US) and do not support the communist government
KeynoteGoat@reddit
This. People who flee Russia -> US are more liberal left wing minded because they fled an authoritarian right wing dictatorship but people who fled china-> US are more right wing minded because they fled an authoritarian left wing dictatorship.
Recent_Page8229@reddit
Left wing dictatorship? I get that they exist, I'm thinking so. Am. But I never thought about China that way.
Dinocop1234@reddit
Why not? What else would the Chinese Communist Party be if not leftist? Right wing?
Recent_Page8229@reddit
I'm not a political science major but myself and most people I would think equate the right wing with authoritarian regimes.
TwinkieDad@reddit
That’s just poor education then. Left/right is about economic system.
Recent_Page8229@reddit
I don't agree with that. I think it's more about non restrictive laws and letting people do what they want within reason. That said, in the US these days a lot of the language of freedom has been prevented in typical ways often seen as we slide down the road of authoritarianism.
TwinkieDad@reddit
The problem is you are using terms you don’t understand. Communism and socialism are explicitly left wing while libertarianism and fascism are right wing. Both sides can have authoritarians.
Swurphey@reddit
Libertarian is absolutely not right wing either unless you're using a brutally oversimplified single axis political chart, you cant possibly put it as anything except diametrically opposite fascism and other totalitarianism. And even then, fascism would still be on the left side of that one-dimensional line, I have no idea of what your working definiton of "right wing" is if you're lumping in completely imcompatable systems like those together based purely on their hate of Communism
TwinkieDad@reddit
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
First sentence.
Swurphey@reddit
Now read what Mussolini said about fascism and socialism. I don't know what your definition of right wing is aside from what Wikipedia says if you're throwing fascism and libertarianism next to each other as neighboring ideologies
TwinkieDad@reddit
If everyone has their own definition of left and right then they don’t mean anything and are useless. I’m using the consensus definitions used by political scientists and historians.
Your issue is you are trying to define left vs right on a how authoritarian it is. That’s an independent axis to left/right.
Dinocop1234@reddit
Why? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever.
Recent_Page8229@reddit
Really, you must live in Merica.
Dinocop1234@reddit
What sort of response is that? Do you believe on us in America are capable of understanding that authoritarianism is unique to either the left or right? Why would you think lost of the world is so ignorant?
Recent_Page8229@reddit
I don't think the world is ignorant at all. In fact the US has certainly slipped in most Categories recently. A lot of European countries have found a good balance certainly better than China.
Dinocop1234@reddit
Then what was up with your response assuming I must “live in Merica” for asking you why you would see the CCP as right wing. Those it came off as you think the rest of the world is ignorant as what I asked was entirely reasonable.
Recent_Page8229@reddit
Your opinion, we're probably closer together in our philosophies than this argument presents but I gotta go earn a paycheck now, have a nice day.
Swurphey@reddit
Recent_Page8229@reddit
I answered the question dinocop. Some people have to go to work. I tried to leave civilly but obviously you gotta go down jerk road.
Recent_Page8229@reddit
Really, you must live in Merica.
roguedigit@reddit
Applying the left/right political spectrum from a western/American tinted lens to China (or anywhere else, really) is a fool's errand. Different histories, different material conditions, different cultures. What's 'authoritarian' to you would just be common civil sense to someone else.
Recent_Page8229@reddit
I have no problem whatsoever doing that. I recognize a lot of people in China are perfectly happy with their system, they built it after all. But there is tons of documented evidence of the horrible things the government does. I doubt you'd want to be a whigur. So just what exactly are you defending?
roguedigit@reddit
I'm not defending anything, just highlighting double-standards. A lot of Americans seem to think of China as a place where its citizens have no say as part of an authoritarian regime, but what does that make self-professed democratic countries that do horrible things like America?
Doesn't it suggest that the average American, unlike the average Chinese that according to them have no rights, is technically more at fault for the horrible things their government does? Or does that mean that America is nowhere near as democratic or left-wing as it claims to be?
ColossusOfChoads@reddit
It's true to an extent. "We the People."
Who says we are? Look at who we just put back in office.
ColossusOfChoads@reddit
Authoritarian verging on totalitarian. The state ultimately runs the economy instead of oligarchs who answer to the state, I guess.
Budget-Attorney@reddit
It’s horseshoe theory.
When it comes to “left wing dictatorship” or “right wing dictatorships” people like to focus on the “left/right wing” part. When they should be focusing on the “dictatorship” part.
Recent_Page8229@reddit
Good point, history is full of horrible regimes that started out with good intentions. They undoubtedly see themselves as the good guys. But generally the left wing is much more supportive of democracy.
hiddentalent@reddit
You need to read more history, because this is absolutely not true. Collectivism depends on top-down authority to reallocate resources according to its doctrine rather than according to the will of the populace.
Budget-Attorney@reddit
The left may be more supportive of democracy.
But left wing dictatorship is going to have about as much democracy as a right wing one
Recent_Page8229@reddit
Yeah a dictatorship is a dictatorship. That's why we strive to have fair elections.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Eh, in my experience people who flee Russia -> US are still pretty conservative. They're liberal and progressive by Russia's standards, sure, but when they hit the US they tend to me somewhere in the middle or slightly right of center.
Cheap_Coffee@reddit
This has been my experience as well. I've worked with many emigres from the former Soviet bloc and I haven't met any that I would describe as liberal.
KeynoteGoat@reddit
I'm talking about modern Russia not the RSFSR, in my experience the new Russian people who fled Putin's antics (so in the last 15 years but especially since the last couple years) tend to be pro EU liberals or social democrats
Cheap_Coffee@reddit
So am I. I was using the reference to "former Soviet bloc" as a geographical description.
Adept_Thanks_6993@reddit
Cantonese is a language, Han is the ethnicity
LeResist@reddit
Ok Cantonese speaking people. My point is they are culturally distinct from people that speak 汉语
roguedigit@reddit
I mean I'm cantonese and I don't see myself that differently from people that speak mandarin, but maybe it's because I speak both. But then again I'm not American and Asian/Chinese Americans are their own brand of unique/weird.
ColossusOfChoads@reddit
What's weird about them?
starshadowzero@reddit
Diaspora Chinese in western countries (which includes ABCs, BBCs, CBCs etc) can have funny/cool quirks from the bicultural upbringing, but they can also be pretentious with respects to their Asia-born 'cousins'.
10luoz@reddit
It probably also has to do with ABC being younger generation and the CCP is both a symbolic and literal representation of old Chinese customs (Confucious) that they want to reject.
Confucious overall does not work in most modern context and especially not with Chinese-Americans who grew up on American Individualism.
Chao-Z@reddit
It's the exact opposite, lol. The CCP is anti-Confucianism and basically against all forms of tradition.
Confucius represents the old ways that Chinese immigrants want to return to, hence why he's such a popular figure in the Western consciousness.
Joseph_Suaalii@reddit (OP)
I’d argue that those Confucianist values are the reason why South Korean and Chinese economies are starting to become stagnant now, and why the birth rates are so low as well.
zugabdu@reddit
Han =/= Mandarin speaker. We Cantonese people are still part of the Han ethnic group.
thedrakeequator@reddit
That's what I thought.
Isn't Cantonese just a dialect of Mandarin?
Sarollas@reddit
They are both dialects of the "Chinese" or Sinitic language.
Xiang, Gan, and Wu are some others.
Mandarin is a dialect itself, not the base.
thedrakeequator@reddit
I knew that the vast majority of China is Han Chinese, but I Haven't ever really studied the Chinese languages.
The only thing I know about them is that they're extremely difficult.
I was reading up about it and apparently Cantonese has multiple tones...... That just seems really intimidating.
Swurphey@reddit
Start with the Cyrillic alphabet, it shares a lot of characters with the Latin script (and Greek too if that's helps at all), actually makes more sense overall in my opinion, and it seriously only took me a few minutes to learn it and only a day or two to get used to too. Korean also looks really intimidating but their script isn't logographic like Chinese, they actually use an (almost?) alphabet too, it's just laid out differently
thedrakeequator@reddit
I wanted to learn Russian, but I actually have my heart set on Hindi. I have already spent about 30 hours studying it and I want to keep it up.
iamcarlgauss@reddit
All the Chinese languages have tones, Cantonese just has more (roughly six) than Mandarin (roughly four).
zugabdu@reddit
No. Cantonese is NOT a dialect of Mandarin. They are related, but separate languages. Mandarin is as incomprehensible to a Cantonese person who has not studied it as Swiss German would be to an Icelander. The Han ethnic group contains speakers dozens of languages, all of which consider themselves "Chinese". Chinese is a language family, not a language, and generally, speakers of those languages are all considered "Han" with some small exceptions.
The reason that the word "dialect" is used in colloquial speech to distinguish the different Chinese languages is because the writing system is usually the same throughout China (although even here, you'll see some exceptions - there are a lot of characters that are only used in Cantonese) and the government (whichever government that has historically been) doesn't like the idea of speakers of the various languages developing separate national sentiments.
thedrakeequator@reddit
I knew that +95% Of China was Han Chinese.
I just never really studied the Chinese languages.
zugabdu@reddit
You're not alone in having this misconception. But the fact that so many people think other Chinese languages are just dialects of the same language causes a lot of confusion. There are dialects within the Chinese languages - Mandarin speakers from Sichuan, Beijing, and Taiwan all speak different dialects of Mandarin. But Cantonese, Hakka, Hokkien, et al, all of those are separate, mutually unintelligible languages.
thedrakeequator@reddit
I should honestly have known this.
I did know that Cantonese was from the Pearl Delta area and that a lot of them immigrated to the United States.
zugabdu@reddit
What's wild is that my grandmother came from Taishan and my grandfather came from Foshan - they're not that far from each other but according to my mom, they had noticeably different dialects (both dialects of the same umbrella family that contains Cantonese).
thedrakeequator@reddit
I've heard that people from different islands in Denmark also can't understand each other.
Language is weird.
It's even weirder when you think that someone from Seattle and someone from Miami speak the same dialect.
Swurphey@reddit
Assuming you don't start getting too far into regional slang at least and even even the "standard" areas can still be identified. I've always considered Seattle to be part of the default American English accent and dialect region that covers most of the country (excluding places like the South, NY, etc. Miami/south FL in general actually falls under here too), but apparently there's a distinct Pacific Northwest accent even though I can never hear it. What's crazy is that I've still been called out as being from Seattle just from my accent (not sure if it's specifically Seattle or it's just the only city people know) when I can't even detect a PNW accent myself and that the majority of people don't even know they have one
thedrakeequator@reddit
Yes, there is an accent, but I consider that to be about a step below a dialect.
Dialects would be like Australia, Canada (eh) and the US.
But calling it a freeway vs expressway I think doesn't' really make the cut.
This is all my opinion.
zugabdu@reddit
Different people living not that far from each other speaking very different dialects has been the norm throughout human history. The notion of nation-states with national languages that stop at international borders is a modern aberration. In the 1700s, most people in France didn't speak the dialect spoken around Paris that we would call French - modern education systems and nationalism made France speak French.
thedrakeequator@reddit
Yes, and English is only one of the British languages.
LeResist@reddit
I didn't say Han people only speak mandarin and I didn't say Cantonese people aren't Han. I feel like my point here is pretty obvious cause I'm trying to make the distinction between the groups cause there's different cultures
LoyalKopite@reddit
We actually have very good relationship with Vietnam now.
roguedigit@reddit
This has gotten less and less true with every generation, btw. The reason why earlier generations of Chinese immigrants are cantonese-speaking is because for a long time most emigration from China came from the south.
That's why when most westerners or non-Chinese people think of what's 'Chinese', they're really just thinking of just one regional flavor of Chinese. Dim sum for example is viewed by non-Southern Chinese as a regional quirk the same way they see lamb kebabs from Xinjiang or spicy food from Sichuan.
starshadowzero@reddit
Everyone's given good examples about why they'd be anti-CCP just based on American upbringing, but I'd say whether they're more knowledgeable about life under the CCP or not, there's possibly a need to be anti-CCP because they're Chinese living in America.
Historically, America hasn't been kind to people of Chinese descent (except for the break when they were the 'good' Asians as opposed to the 'evil' Japanese). Especially in this day in age, I wouldn't doubt there's a pressure to overcommunicate how American and NOT Chinese you are, especially by denouncing one of your country's main rivals.
Of course, ABCs who have secondhand reasons to hate the CCP (via family experiences) are entitled to their grudges, but I feel there shouldn't be any 'extra' need for most ABCs to hate the CCP if they have any awareness of their own country.
For context, I'm a second gen Canadian and I see both the US government and Chinese government as the leaders of stable countries that have the right to exist, yes, in spite of whatever dirt we have on them. Both governments (and of course, the Canadian one too) have committed atrocities, but they are for now, what their people have for better or worse.
TLDR: if ABCs have a legit grievance with the CCP via connections to family or friends who have suffered, their hate is understandable. But if they've never traveled extensively, especially to China, I'd think it's strange if they have what OP calls 'virulent' feelings, especially when the average American doesn't.
tn00bz@reddit
I wouldn't call Americans pro-ccp. A large chunk of them probably have no idea what the CCP is. So yeah, Chinese born Americans, and Chinese immigrants, and even people living in China right now probably hate the CCP more than the average American.
The only Americans that actually like the CCP are chronically online Moaists that even the most devout leftists find disgusting.
a3r0d7n4m1k@reddit
People with more knowledge of the issue and more at stake personally take a bigger issue with the cause of those problems than the average person? Should not be shocking.
vhu9644@reddit
I haven’t noticed this. What I’ve noticed is a much more nuanced view. Of course my view is of the slice having higher than average education and in California.
Most don’t like the social conservatism the CCP brings. Some of them are Taiwanese ABCs (ABTs?) that are pro independence or Taiwanese identity. Some are more or less neutral on the issue, or think that the U.S. has been stoking a lot of hate that puts us in the crosshairs. I have a couple of tankie acquaintances that went to Berkeley. Idk dafuq they doing over there, and it’s weird that they’re both tankies. Most of them prefer democracy to the single party “democracy” in China (again two tankies).
A good chunk of them do think the CCP doesn’t get enough credit for China’s economic miracle. We also are open to certain Chinese products. I know a couple that really like DJI drones, for example. A few are big fans of Chinese mini PCs. Most of us worry about the American response to China affecting us. A good chunk of us have been to China and thought that the cities were pretty cool and that they’ve changed a lot over the last couple decades. Most of the people I’m in contact with speak mandarin, and like half of the mandarin speakers speak Cantonese.
My perception of the average China-aware American is that they have a much less nuanced position and it’s much more directly negative. Most of the average American comments on Reddit boil down to jokes about social credit, censorship, racist tropes about the Chinese people, or some clueless note about Taiwan, the CCP political structure, or Chinese culture. It’s alarming how often you’ll see some random redditor will say something unhinged about the Chinese people.
My perception about the average American is they don’t like China but don’t think about it much and don’t have concrete reasons that formed their opinion. If this is your basis of comparison, then I think most Americans born X would have a more extreme opinion of X than the average American, because the average American just doesn’t think about X very much.
Curmudgy@reddit
Maybe the Wikipedia article on tankies is giving me the wrong impression, but I don't understand why you call them tankies if they prefer democracy over China's single party rule.
vhu9644@reddit
No, tankies are the ones that make it not all lol.
So basically everyone but 2 prefer US democracy.
Curmudgy@reddit
I’m still not following you. The ones that make what? Who is everyone?
vhu9644@reddit
All of my ABC friends/ancquantances except the two tankies prefer American democracy.
Curmudgy@reddit
Ok, thanks. I didn't realize you had other ABC acquaintances besides those 2.
vhu9644@reddit
I’m an ABC that grew up in the Bay Area. I knew a lot of other ABCs
thefumingo@reddit
Yeah, from personal experience (including with my own immigrant family) Chinese-Americans are actually much less anti-Communist than other diasporas from Communist countries, and I actually seen plenty of pro-CCP Chinese Americans while I have never met a pro-Soviet Russian American, for example.
Part of it is because of China's rise combined with anti-Asian racism. Of course, as you pointed out, most people don't think about the CCP much in daily life, so it's a issue that will be more important for Chinese/Taiwanese Americans specifically.
11B_35P_35F@reddit
The most freedom and capitalism loving folks i know are those from communist bloc and middle eastern countries.
cookie12685@reddit
Everyone I know who has lived under such extreme socialism resents it
JoeyAaron@reddit
I haven't noticed Chinese Americans being anti-CCP the way you notice Cuban Americans hating the Cuban government.
mrcatboy@reddit
I'm ethnically Chinese. My grandparents had to flee to Taiwan to escape the CCP during the civil war. So... yeah we don't truck with the CCP.
Tuskrakk@reddit
Have they shared what happened to them during that time? Did they stay in Taiwan or did they immigrate to the US? I'm always fascinated by first-hand accounts of history in action.
mrcatboy@reddit
My parents immigrated to the US and brought my grandparents over later in life. I have heard stories from my dad though. He once knew a guy who was abducted and press-ganged into joining the military on the Mainland. His mother had sent him out to buy soy sauce, and once he was conscripted he had no idea how to get back home (try finding a small village you may not even know the name of in a period where maps and locations aren't as ubiquitous as they are now for the working class).
I don't know if he ever saw his mother again.
deltagma@reddit
That’s because they left the CCP’s China for a reason
Similar to I, as a Russian American, Hate Communism and the Soviet Union.
We left for a reason. It wasn’t working.
LAW9960@reddit
That's true of most immigrant groups having a strong dislike of their country's politics. Most leave their home country because they want a better life and don't like their country/country's politics.
My wife is cantonese originally from Hong Kong and absolutely hates the CCP and discriminates against people from mainland China.
Children are heavily influenced by their parents politics since they're often raised with a similar world view/values of their parents.
thmsdrdn56@reddit
Wait til you see our Cubans.
Arretez1234@reddit
It's a bit hard to like a government constantly threatening to invade the tiny island where most of your family is and has originated from.
amcjkelly@reddit
If you are old enough to remember Bush selling the kids out and watching them get run over by tanks you tend to be very opposed.
Kids brainwashed for decades that communism is cool, not so much.
Mildars@reddit
Don’t get me started about Cuban Americans’ views on Cuba.
manicpixidreamgirl04@reddit
Yes, because they've grown up hearing first hand accounts from their family members about how bad the CCP is.
MeinLieblingsplatz@reddit
I’d love to answer this question, as I am an ABC and study demography, but it’d be a very lengthy discussion and I frankly don’t have the energy for that.
In short: yes, but not exclusively. The Chinese American community is an extremely complex beast. And I would rather not have a bunch of white Redditors drown me out in this thread and be like “yes, duh, America #1, ccp bad. Hur dur dur” when they think the Chinese-American community is monolithic.
thatrightwinger@reddit
Although there is undoubtedly a solidly anti-CCP contingent among ABC, the CCP also controls or influences Mandarin-speaking media like Weibo and WeChat, so a lot of Mandarin-language content is filtered through a pro-CCP filter.
Squippyfood@reddit
From my personal experience this only applies to ABCs who have little contact with China, ie their family abandoned the homeland for economic reasons or were straight up a persecuted class by the CCP.
More well-off families who keep their bridges strong are a lot more neutral on the topic. China isn't anti-capitalist so their own lifestyle doesn't feel antithetical. If anything they believe that the authoritarian regime is the only way to keep the whole country in line.
dracarys289@reddit
Crazy how the people who were raised by those who fled an oppressive regime tend to hate said oppressive regime.
MontCoDubV@reddit
It's not terribly surprising. ABCs are children/grandchildren/etc of people who left China for a reason. They have a stronger personal family connection and are more likely to have people in their family who were directly oppressed/victimized by the CCP. Non-Chinese Americans don't have that personal connection, so their opposition tends to be more intellectual rather than personal.
link2edition@reddit
I don't know if this is a good data point for you, but a friend of mine got her US citizenship recently after immigrating from hong kong. She hates the chinese govt.
Bonus points for her being an engineer. America is still taking the best minds from totalitarian regimes even to this day.
Danibear285@reddit
Critical thinking isn’t required on the internet, this proves it
redditjunky2025@reddit
Most descendants from Communist Countries are that way. They hear of the stories of how bad it was in the old country.
castlebanks@reddit
The same with Americans of Cuban, Venezuelan and Nicaraguan heritage. People who escape brutal communist authoritarian regimes develop a fierce hatred for them or anything that resembles them. It's not a new phenomenon and it's 100% understandable.
cikanman@reddit
Mainly because many ABC or Chinese immigrants have seen the problems of communism first hand or were told the horror stories by their parents. While many Americans who have not been to China have only heard either Chinese propaganda( everything fine) or have seen travel pictures of friends who have gone, thus a glossed over version.
MrBobBuilder@reddit
Ya just like Cuban Americans hate communist
If you see how bad it sucks and come see how great America is , you realize what the bastards kept you from your whole life
PerfectlyCalmDude@reddit
I expect anyone with a family history that involves escaping Communism to be more stridently anti-Communist than the average person whose family history does not. When you or your immediate or extended family had to escape something awful, it's going to be that much more real to you.
needabra129@reddit
So this has to do with our immigration policies enacted during the Cold War that prohibited any supporters of socialism/marxism/communism from coming to the U.S. And not specific to China, but others have mentioned Eastern European/cuban immigrants sharing the same sympathies and this is because those communities tended to be from the landowning classes who lost their inherited status in society through the redistribution of wealth. So literally the opponents of socialism. Source: married to Hungarian whose family had their estates confiscated during the revolution
squarerootofapplepie@reddit
A little different perspective, my master’s advisor is Chinese but unlike many relatives in this thread he didn’t flee China, he left to do a PhD and never (metaphorically) went back. He seems to be more cynical about the CCP than anything, like they’re a political party he doesn’t agree with as opposed to the oppressive force many in this thread are referencing.
Meilingcrusader@reddit
Well yeah, a lot of them moved here during the worst years of Mao. That's their recollection of what the CCP is, how it was at its very worst, when radical students attacked people and the pantries were empty.
PAXICHEN@reddit
I grew up in NJ and never heard the term ABC until I moved to Germany.
cavall1215@reddit
That's probably because their grandparents experienced the shitstorm that was Mao's China, and they grew up hearing horrific stories. And their parents also experienced the CCP tyranny first hand with their own stories, including knowing people who "disappeared" following Tiananmen. If my parents told me that the CCP secretly murdered or tortured their friends and my grandparents almost starved to death for a vanity project, I'd also be pretty anti-CCP.
This is also why the children of Cuban refugees back in the hated Castro and Cuba. Communism sucks ass.
CompetitiveOstrich16@reddit
Same with Vietnamese, Cubans, Venezuelans, Koreans. What do they all have in common?
Techialo@reddit
Gonna be honest, the ones I know don't seem to care either way.
knockoffjanelane@reddit
Yeah duh. I’m Taiwanese so I hate the CCP. Pretty simple.
Odd-Help-4293@reddit
Probably their parents or grandparents came here fleeing the Cultural Revolution, and they heard all about that growing up. Just like how Cuban-Americans hate Castro.
Blue387@reddit
I was riding a bus here in Brooklyn and two Hispanic female passengers were chatting about their lives and they despise Fidel Castro. Just hated him and loudly.
Blue387@reddit
Take a look at our family histories. Our experiences are similar to those Cubans who fled Cuba and still hate Fidel Castro even though he's been dead for years.
My father is critical of the Party and his family fled Shanghai for Hong Kong; he later emigrated to the United States. My uncle still lives in Hong Kong and supports the Party and criticizes the United States.
My maternal grandfather also fled, emigrated to the US, later brought over my maternal grandmother and kids, including my mother. I haven't been back to HK in many years and don't really desire to do so.
Amazing_Net_7651@reddit
Well yeah. Same reason why many Eastern Europeans and Cubans are anti communist.
NUSHStalin@reddit
ABCs aren’t even the worst
Cuban Americans (espeically the new immigrants in Miami) hate Castro and communism so much that they will literally support the Republican Party under Trump simply because the Democrats have become too woke and socialist by allowing Bernie and AOC to be in the party. There’s a reason why US presidents have continuously not acted on lifting the embargo on Cuba despite literally everyone else in the world voting to end it (but considering FL is long-gone for the Dems, we might see some progress being made)
Second-gen Cuban-Americans are not as conservative because they don’t have first-hand experience of communism in Cuba
LoyalKopite@reddit
Not necessary it can go both ways I had Chinese American inmate 64 year old he was born in New York and grew up in HK. I told him I did study abroad in Taiwan. He said that is real China not the one governed by CCP.
Pinwurm@reddit
I was born in the Soviet Union. I’ve been quite vocally anti-authoritarian for as long as I can remember.
Being a good immigrant - and also, being the diaspora - means bringing the best with you, whilst leaving the worst behind.
Soviet or Chinese values relating to art, music, food, family, folklore - all good things. Values for dictatorial governments and lack of freedom? Leave that behind.
cryptoengineer@reddit
Related: I'm 3rd generation Estonian-American. My grandparents emigrated in the 1920s. I grew up hearing about Soviet oppression after WW2 (some relatives were exiled to Siberia). Current Russia doesn't seem any better, and I pray for the collapse of the current Russian Empire. "Moskovia delenda est".
1maco@reddit
This is how most diaspora groups are. Ask your average North Dakotan and they’ll have almost 0 opinion on either Cuba or Venezuela’s governments but Miami Cubans or Venezuelans ? They’ll blather on for hours.
zugabdu@reddit
I'm a left-leaning Chinese American and I utterly loathe the CCP. No one human being is responsible for the deaths of more Chinese people than Mao Zedong. The modern CCP leadership is a bunch of nationalistic thugs who like authoritarianism for its own sake.
idredd@reddit
It’s the same with like every immigrant that comes to the US during times of conflict, particularly any of those in any way tied to the Cold War and/or communism. Same reason why FL Cubans were so rabidly anti Cuba for ages.
Wise_Concentrate_182@reddit
ABC is an American. Exactly as clueless as Americans thanks to the incessant media barrage of only negativity. But the ABC bears the brunt of it for looking a certain way so they’re more sensitive.
MeepleMerson@reddit
I think people of recent Chinese descent (including those born there) in general are more anti-CCP than the average American. One would expect that people with strong connections to a place would be knowledgeable about it, feel some sort of investment in it, and have stronger opinions about it.
I don’t believe most Americans invest much thought in the Chinese government, and some even admire them for their authoritarianism and ability to set social policy (e.g. MAGA).
AllCrankNoSpark@reddit
Do you think they’d have a genetically-based fondness for it or something? What would make them like it more than anyone else? When they’ve chosen NOT to live under it?
epicjorjorsnake@reddit
Can't speak for other, but yes for me.
For background context, my father is from Taiwan and my mother is from mainland China. I've also been to China multiple times.
I'm anti-CCP because China has its problems and I do not like how the CCP is clearly building its military to take Taiwan as well as harassing other Asian countries.
captainpro93@reddit
I think I can answer this one. I am from Taiwan, but most Americans I know are ABC.
Few factors.
China is arguably a quite developed country today, but it was not at all a good place to be 30-40 years ago when their parents immigrated. You are not going to have much fondness for the government in charge if your parents and grandparents told you about a China that went through its low points. You can walk around parts of Bejing/Shanghai and think you are in one of the most sophisticated places in the world today, but this was not true even when I was a kid.
A lot of Taiwanese-Americans in the ABC community. CCP and Taiwanese largely have a bad relationship, especially those on DPP side and pro-independence. KMT side (stemming from the people who fought the civil war against China/ran the old military dictatorship) is friendlier with China, but even they have that historical baggage. I don't think anyone likes having their country threatened with war, so this one I think is pretty self-explanatory.
Many Hong Kongers moved to USA/Canada/UK after the handover was anounced. People who leave HK because China is taking over HK are more likely to dislike China.
People have more virulent feelings towards things that matter to them. Like how Eastern Europeans care a lot about Russia because Russia's actions are relevant to them. China's actions are more relevant to ABCs, so they care more. A Norwegian-American probably would be against the massacres in Sudan, but it doesn't matter to them as much as someone whose parents are from Sudan.
I think this is different with a lot of newer ABCs. There is a lot of old immigrant/new immigrant division here, with newer immigrants typically being significantly wealthier. For example, two of my parents' friends just came here, bought two 4 million USD+ houses that were right next to each other, and then went back to China, because they plan to maybe move back here at some point in the future. This is not an uncommon occurrence, and it is a place where many ABCs are struggling to afford to buy a house, so this kind of behavior just drives housing prices up and people often resent that. I find a lot of the younger children, who grew up in multi-millionaire families with a lot of wealth in China, tend to look upon China much more favourably. I live on the weekends in a suburb with a Chinese plurality, and "fu er dai" is a very common phrase here, essentially referring to wealthy, spoiled, second generation children. It's not as if the ABCs are doing poorly, average income here is still quite high, but there is a difference in perception between people who are "rich" because they came from working class families and became doctors or bankers, and people who are "rich" because they own/are major shareholders of corporations in China and can afford to live here without working. I think there is a moderate amount of resentment from the ABC here because of that which can spill over to disliking the CCP too, because the more recent, wealthier immigrants tend to be more pro CCP.
Dramatic-Blueberry98@reddit
It’s kind of a given that most people whose family flee to another country from their home country aren’t going to be fans of said old government.
Even second generation people are not going to be fans either because they would have grown up hearing the reasons why their family had to flee.
natertottt@reddit
I’m not informed about this at all. But I would just assume that it’s more personal for someone who is ethnically Chinese than it would be for someone who has no cultural ties to the region like me.
AtheneSchmidt@reddit
I have several friends who went to China for work, and ended up marrying and having kids with Chinese women. My take on this is that American born Chinese kids, know enough about the CCP to hate it, but haven't been raised within it, so they don't fear it.
tankengine75@reddit
Tbh, Most people from dictatorships who have immigrated to another country for a better life hate the dictatorship they used to live in
thedawntreader85@reddit
Most Americans are woefully uneducated about the horrors of communism so it doesn't surprise me at all.
mklinger23@reddit
Same thing with Cubans. The Cubans that move here hate the cuban government and their kids usually do as well. And yes I've noticed that about ABCs. I'm assuming it's for the same reason.
Avery_Thorn@reddit
Most ABC people aren't here because their parents got transferred. Most people who move in from China aren't just following economic opportunity or love.
Of course the children of the people who felt the need to run away from the CCP are going to be less favorable of it than those of us who don't have any personal impact from it.
I would venture to guess that most political refugees and children of political refugees have generally negative feelings about the government that they needed to uproot their entire lives and run away from.
Economic refugees and people who move here for other reasons tend not to have this bias, and actually tend to romanticize the old country.
When forming an opinion of these other governments, this is an important set of biases to watch put for.
Bear_necessities96@reddit
Any diaspora that flew their country from dictatorship is like that Venezuela, Cuba have a weird obsession with anti communism and socialist propaganda.
The only diaspora I don’t find that is the Russian diaspora
NonSumQualisEram-@reddit
People who have escaped from tyranny, whether it's Chinese, Venezuelans, Cubans etc have this on their minds on a daily basis and similarly see that comparison with their current lives all the time...
EffectiveNew4449@reddit
Shouldn't be surprising. The US has been the main anti-Communist force in the world since after WWII.
If you ever want to find anti-CCP, anti-Castro, or anti-Ho Chi Minh folk, you can sure as hell find them in the US.
Antioch666@reddit
Well they probably have a lot more insight about them and what it means to live under their rule.
We see the same thing about the view about Putin and Russia. A lot of Americans on the right, even think he's a "good guy" standing up for "family values" and christianity. And wants someone similar in the US. Europeans, especially the eastern block know full well what it means to live under Russian rule and their FSB church.
chococrou@reddit
I don’t think this is specific to American born Chinese. My husband is Malaysian born Chinese (grandparents were born in China) and he and his friends also don’t like the Chinese government.
The_Real_Scrotus@reddit
I don't think it should be surprising that people with recent Chinese ancestry feel more strongly about the CCP than Americans who likely have no real-world experience with China or Chinese politics.
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