Pattern entry
Posted by Obvious-Energy9469@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 34 comments
Thoughts on an upwind entry with multiple planes already in the pattern? Seems dangerous to me.
Posted by Obvious-Energy9469@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 34 comments
Thoughts on an upwind entry with multiple planes already in the pattern? Seems dangerous to me.
barcode-username@reddit
People need to stop making up their own pattern entries. We already have published procedures, why change it up and confuse everyone?
JJAsond@reddit
It looks like they entered on the upwind and flew the pattern that way
MeatServo1@reddit
Right, which is not a published procedure. There’s one way to enter when approaching from the downwind side – on a 45° – and two when approaching from the upwind side: enter on a 45° to the downwind or cross midfield, maneuver as appropriate, and join the downwind on a 45°. Notice a theme here? A sloppy lap around the airport beginning on the upwind is neither correct nor safe, especially when there are other planes in the pattern. Plus why do all that and then fly that dog shit end of a downwind to final?
See AC 90-66C, pages A-2 and A-5.
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
Agreed 100%
JJAsond@reddit
It does look pretty horrible
vtjohnhurt@reddit
Not atypical for an uncontrolled airport. That you were surprised when something like this happened suggests that you're not familiar with uncontrolled airports. It's dangerous to expect everything to happen 'by the book'.
When you're joining downwind on 45, it's quite common to have a conflict with a plane that is already established on downwind. It's not easy to spot the traffic that late in the game because you have to look over your left shoulder to see them. I'd suggest that before you start to enter on 45, and even before you descend to pattern altitude, that you scan the airport area for traffic. It's easier to spot traffic when they're flying perpendicular to your path.
Be sure to watch out for aircraft on midfield crosswinds.
Thegerbster2@reddit
This is why I like the fact a midfield join is the standard up here
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Any chance they were doing/practicing an instrument approach to a circle to land? Not saying that justifies things or gives them right of way, but worth thinking about.
andrewrbat@reddit
Uh that would be a really really weird/bad circling approach. To do an entire 360 around the field from an approach seems insane.
AlexJamesFitz@reddit
Yeah it's definitely unusual, but I could see a case for it as a training technique in VMC to show a student how low/close you need to be. Not something I'd do with other traffic in the pattern, though.
andrewrbat@reddit
Idk. I cant see it being useful at all. I cant imagine ever doing this in imc.
hawker1172@reddit
No wrong overfly and teardrop if not on the 45 downwind. End of discussion.
sammyd17@reddit
Is this even an overfly with a teardrop? Looks like a straight in, change of mind, join opposite downwind, cross through the upwind, join downwind.
hawker1172@reddit
Which im saying is wrong
sammyd17@reddit
Yeah I agree, even more so with people in the pattern.
MostNinja2951@reddit
How many planes is "multiple"? Where were they at the time of the upwind entry?
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
I guess I should have clarified on the initial post - there were two planes in the pattern at the time, we were making our calls for a 45 to the downwind for left traffic on 09 and the traffic that entered on the upwind came screaming across the crosswind to enter the downwind cutting us off on the 45 and not making any calls until they were established on the downwind. Lucky to have seen them and did a 360 to avoid.
MostNinja2951@reddit
So you're at fault then. The traffic already in the pattern (on the crosswind leg) has right of way and the 45 degree entry is not established in the pattern. It's your responsibility to time your entry to make sure you don't conflict with traffic already in the pattern, and to break off and come back if necessary.
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
They weren’t already in the pattern - they were joining the pattern.
MostNinja2951@reddit
Once they were on the crosswind leg they were in the pattern. This happened while you were still approaching the pattern on the 45, meaning they had right of way over you.
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
Right of way is given to the aircraft at the lower altitude (which we were) My concern was more so with the safety of that entry with two planes already in the pattern and two joining from opposite directions. 45 to the downwind (less than a mile from you be established) and the upwind entry shown.
MostNinja2951@reddit
Only on final. And you shouldn't be lower, in the 45 you should be at pattern altitude.
Where were the other two planes? When I asked about traffic you only mentioned traffic on the 45 not yet in the pattern.
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
It’s not confined to final in the reg. We were at TPA. The other aircraft was higher than us. We were the ones joining the pattern on the 45 with one established in the downwind about to turn base and another plane on the roll.
MostNinja2951@reddit
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
My friend - read it from where it says “When two or more aircraft are approaching…” - It’s is stating that if you are approaching (not on final) the aircraft at the lower altitude does has the right of way, however, can not use this rule to overtake someone who is on final.
MostNinja2951@reddit
Again, the context is aircraft on final. The first rule handles aircraft on final vs. others, the second is very clearly explaining how to handle the case not handled by the first rule where two aircraft are both on final.
Or do you think you have right of way over an aircraft 2 miles out on the 45 at TPA + 100' while you are 2.5 miles out at TPA? Do you think your being 100' lower means the plane ahead of you has to yield to you and allow you to pass?
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
It’s not specific only to final, though final is most mentioned. Also, no I do not think that. I do however think the point of my initial post got lost in this back and forth. Fly safe.
MostNinja2951@reddit
But that would be the inevitable consequence of your interpretation. Both of you are approaching the airport and you are lower than the other aircraft.
If your interpretation leads to absurdity that you reject then the alternative is that the rule applies, as I said, only to aircraft on final.
Individual_Sir_8582@reddit
Does it not make logical sense that the aircraft already in the pattern and is lower would have the right of way compared to an aircraft approaching the airport not in the pattern or at pattern altitude.
Motor-Individual8888@reddit
I would say it depends on if what he did was okay depending on the positions of other planes in the pattern, making good radio calls, and being vigilant. Who even knows if the poster is jorking it on flightradar24 all day looking for retarded shit to point out or if he had any context to this.
Far_Top_7663@reddit
That was standard pattern entry for one runway where I did my PPL training. Airspace was restricted 1 NM North of the field so there was no room to do a 45-degrees midfield entry. The 2 differences however is that we would deviate more to the South when approaching the airport and do what would be a 45-degree entry for the opposite runway, and then cross abeam the departure end of said opposite runway with 1000ft AGL before turning left for downwind of the intended runway.
Other p[possibilities are:
- They were following ATC instructions
- They originally intended to land on the opposite runway but then they changed their mind (still not a nice entry for the opposite runway either)
Far_Top_7663@reddit
That was standard pattern entry for one runway where I did my PPL training. Airspace was restricted 1 NM North of the field so there was no room to do a 45-degrees midfield entry. The 2 differences however is that we would deviate more to the South when approaching the airport and do what would be a 45-degree entry for the opposite runway, and then cross abeam the departure end of said opposite runway with 1000ft AGL before turning left for downwind of the intended runway.
Other p[possibilities are:
- They were following ATC instructions
- They originally intended to land on the opposite runway but then they changed their mind (still not a nice entry for the opposite runway either)
Obvious-Energy9469@reddit (OP)
Lower altitude has right of way. We were on our 45 to the downwind.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Thoughts on an upwind entry with multiple planes already in the pattern? Seems dangerous to me.
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