Gangs looting Gaza aid operate in areas under Israeli control, aid groups say
Posted by tallzmeister@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 197 comments
shieeet@reddit
So, the IDF gladly double-taps aid workers delivering food with multiple drone strikes, but also looks the other way when local robber gangs abetting the starvation crisis establish military compounds under their noses? Worlds most moral army, y’all.
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
And claims that all Gaza’s police officers are Hamas so they can kill them and prevent them from maintaining any social order.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Wait aren’t all Gaza police officers apart of the Hamas organization as Hamas for years had acted as a illegitimate government of Gaza for what? Decades now?
Mognakor@reddit
Afaik not necessarily, just like police officers in a D or R state aren't necessarily members of either party. The higher up the bigger the chance they are literally members. Of course things get more blurry when using wording such as "associated with" or "working for" because d'uh.
Also helps that in common parlance there is little distinction between different wings of Hamas, e.g. civilian, political, military.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Made worse by Hamas’s common disregard of uniforms and use of human shields.
If the mainline military forces of Hamas disregard uniforms that means that there’s no reliable means to tell if someone on a list somewhere of Hamas payroll is a teacher or a soldier.
Meanwhile Israel utilize uniforms wich means that if you say- enter a music festival during a first strike operation- you should be able to point out active military personnel easily
Mognakor@reddit
Afaik soldiers not engaged in military action are not valid military targets.
Killing someone because they are on a payroll list is not justified under international law. I assume if Hamas said "we found a list of Israeli reservists and killed them wherever they are, just happens thats about everyone between 18-35" you would consider that terrorism and act appalled at calling their families "human shields".
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
No but it’s more precise targeting than what Hamas normally do.
Soldier engaging in warfare are valid target, a common means to indicate that if a soldier is engaging in warfare is if they are in uniform- how can that be done if the standard doctrine is to forgo uniforms?
Mognakor@reddit
Ideally i'd draw a more narrow line than just being in uniform, e.g. blowing up barracks of soldiers pretty much falls under them being on duty but i don't think that should be allowed, certainly not if thats your primary target/you have other means.
How do you decide who is engaging in warfare? The obvious ones, they engage you in combat, patrol, prepare attacks, setup traps etc. You'll never be rid of gray areas, but wherever the line is, blowing up people in their homes is on the other side.
Where the fuck is your moral if the line for dronestrikes for you is "name appeared on some payroll"? I wonder how many victims of 7.10 would remain as civilians if i took just accepted the flimsiest of military connection? And then the rest, too bad they are human shields. Iirc the military civilian rate already is ar 1:3 for that attack and apparently thats okay for Israel, get a bit creative and we're gonna drop that to 1:2 or 1:1.
P.S:
Kinda feel obligated to drop this here since you're so incensed on alleged uses of human shields by Hamas: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human-shields-israel-military-gaza-intl/index.html
meister2983@reddit
What is the other means? Israel's stated intention is to end Hamas as a military force. By now, it appears they will not surrender like any normal military force would, so the only option is to arrest/kill every single Hamas member to end the organization's existence.
If that is the only way to achieve military victory, well then there are no alternatives to "blowing up barracks of soldiers" because taking out every single soldier becomes necessary to victory.
Mognakor@reddit
Hamas agreed to multiple ceasefire proposals that Israel then rejected.
Israel keeps prolonging this and they have no actual plan for the day after, it's been a year and their only plan is "lets kill everyone".
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Blowing up barracks unless it been converted and indecated as converted into a humanitarian facility is inline with the rules of war. Hamas doesn’t have dedicated barracks facilities as standard doctrine and typically have tunnels that run under civilian structures.
Blowing up people in there homes is not the other side if the home is being used as a barracks for military personnel- in the rules of warfare it explistitly stated that doing such voids the protection of such structures. If you have a problem with how the rules of warfare is that is a different discussion that I am willing to have as I-myself have issues with it.
How can you tell if a military personnel is on patrol or setting up traps (a violation of the rules of war) if they don’t use uniform as standard doctrine?
I’m saying that if there’s use of uniform that means that it’s much easier to tell if that payroll line is for military or nonmilitary personnel. To tell if that guy that walked out of the building is a soldier or a janitor.
Mognakor@reddit
People on patrol carry weapons etc.
Here in Germany people in uniform ride for free on the train, how do you know they aren't on patrol or setting up traps.
So soldiers have to wear uniform when they get paid? Is being paid a military action.
What does make something barracks? How do you know they are used as barracks if according to you they can't even tell who the guy living there is? A soldier living in a house does not make the house barracks, not in Gaza, not in the US.
I wanna be really clear on this: If Hamas bombs the house of someone on mandatory military service and kills everyone in there (for the sake if argument lets say they live there), is that a justified and okay according to your standards?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Cops also on patrol carry weapons, if standard doctrine is to forgo uniforms than it’s reasonable to treat anyone carrying weapons as a possible valid target.
Why don’t you pull up the definition of barracks under the rules of warfare?
During peacetime and while the soldier is out of uniform- no. During wartime those reservists should be out of uniform to prevent confusion, if the IDF forgo uniforms as doctrine then they created the confusion in the situation at best that caused a fully packed apartment complex to get leveled.
Mognakor@reddit
What about teachers? You initially commented was about them, do they carry weapons and patrol?
I can't find any official definition, only generic onces, and frankly i doubt treaties concern themselves with the specifics of military installations. But surely you have it ready if it exists.
So killing Israeli soldiers at home is not okay, but Palestinian Teachers can be bombed, got it.
As others have already told you, your opponent committing warcrimes does not allow you to commit warcrimes and definitly not against others. If you wanna say people are losing protections it might apply to those soldiers, but not to 3rd parties. And again turning it around, if Israel is found to commit warcrimes (or other forms of international crimes) you wouldn't accept Hamas using that as justification.
Gaza is considered being occupied under international law, the Westbank is illegally being settled, so surely targetting civilians is fine? Too bad the children of settlers got killed, shouldn't have had them human shields, right?
Ropetrick6@reddit
By apprehending them in the process, using Israel's uncontested drone superiority to trail them and be able to safely apprehend them later, and not targeting civilians.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
That is encouraging the disregard of the rules of war by making the other side having to do more work to respond to the issue.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You don't get to target civilians, that's the foundations of the rules of war. Enforcing that isn't disregarding the rules of war, enforcing it is following the rules of war.
Why is this so difficult for zionists to understand?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Ok- so what exstra work dose Hamas have to do in response to Israeli braking of the rules of warfare?
Ropetrick6@reddit
Hamas already has to do extra work, that's what being an insurgent terrorist organization means.
Also, the Geneva Convention doesn't say you're free to break it once somebody else breaks it, it says you're not to break it under ANY circumstances.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Actually it have provisions that - tho not directly- basically says that.
IE- historical monuments are not protected if used to barrack soldiers, house weapon systems or supplies, use to organized military operations, used as a firing position, or anything else of that nature.
Ropetrick6@reddit
The exceptions are included in the rules. You do not get to break the rules, under any circumstances.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Like- you can’t target civilians.
Well- this is my fully serious question- fully serious- 100%.
Dose that rule still hold if military personnel ensure that there military vehicles always contain at-least one civilian and advertised as such in a bid to render such vehicles immune to weapons fire.
As some argued that Israel tried atlease once when they were (they claimed) trying to emdivact a militant in a bad situation
Ropetrick6@reddit
Under international law, the occupying power cannot bring in it's own civilians into occupied territory. Kidnapping civilians is also illegal, as is using them as meat shields
With those combined, Israel's in the wrong for trying to use civilians in such a manner, being a direct violation of international law.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
So- if Hamas is firing weapons next to a hospital and get counter battery fire they are-
Ropetrick6@reddit
You do not drop 2000lb bombs next to hospitals if you want ANY claim of obeying international laws.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Do you not see the problem with using Hamas' behaviour as your benchmark?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Don’t you see the problem with insisting that the braking of the rules of war means that the side that didn’t brake that rule have to expend more resources and energy in response to that instead of adopting the stance that the side that broke the rule is accepting guilt and blame for the results of them regularly shooting at solders while dressed as civilians?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
What do you think separates terrorists from non terrorists? Evil people from good People? Right from wrong?
Yes, doing to right thing, the good thing, the moral thing, is quite frequently harder or more costly to do. If doing the right thing was always the easiest course of action there wouldn't be evil and wrongdoing.
Condemning Hamas' evil acts while using it to justify your own evil acts makes you no better than the 'terrorists' you so decry.
And, frankly, we expect Hamas to comport themselves properly and stop breaking international laws as well. And unlike Israel Hamas has actually suffered consequences, so don't try and oretend there is any sort of double standard here.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Wanna see the effects of that thinking- look at Afghanistan.
The fact of the matter such abuses of the rules of war followed by moral grandstanding that proven to be a valid tactic that works.
TraditionalGap1@reddit
Are you of the opinion that the abuses in Afghanistan were good?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Are you saying that trying to be ethical was worth 20 years of quagmire?
TraditionalGap1@reddit
No, because 'trying to be ethical' isn't why Afghanistan was a failure. Look, if you're comfortable with war crimes that's fine, just don't be a hypocrite about it. It's not acceptable when Canada does it, when the West does it, when Hamas does it or when Israel does it. Pretending that Israel is somehow justified, making the argument that war crimes CAN be justified, makes it a lot harder to condemn only one side for war crimes
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
I am not comfortable with war crimes- but I am also not comfortable with insisting that you don’t hit below the belt when someone try to hit you below the belt.
Tho hitting below the belt doesn’t give someone reason to hit someone’s kid who didn’t do anything
TraditionalGap1@reddit
RIGHT?! That's what I've been trying to say this entire time! That's my whole point!
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
This situation is more akin to someone ducktaping babies to there chest and attacking people. (Hamas)
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
As for all the teachers, and civil servants. Funny how Israel tries to claim that even active IDF soldiers are completely completely innocent and not valid targets of war and then goes around to claim that even civilian members of Gaza’s government deserve to be assassinated alongside their families.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Wait- so what is Hamas-
a terror group
A Government
A illegitimate Government?
FlippinSnip3r@reddit
Facist governments always rely on a schrodinger's enemy.
That enemy is both strong and all encompassing but also weak and I promise you it'll get wiped out by our glorious army any day now
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
Yes
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Makes sense- it seems like people shift to one or another to try to justify or downplay Hamas’ actions.
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
Or maybe you are just unable to comprehend the nuance that there is a militant and civilian wing, just as there are military and civilian wings of every government on earth. And that does not justify Israel trying to kill every person the identify as potentially being part of Hamas, their families, and everyone around them.
Do you think all the Israelis who were killed on 10/7 who worked in the public sector in government jobs were legitimate military targets?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
I don’t think terror organizations can have civilian wings, such as I don’t think criminal organizations can have legit wings.
It also allowing Hamas get the moral-ethical benefits of both without them having the drawbacks.
Meanwhile Hamas is deliberately muddying the waters by having its soldiers not utilize uniforms as standard doctrine after it started this war with a proclamation of genocidal intent. Israeli have to wait for Hamas to engage in weapons fire to tell if someone is a member of the Hamas armed forces, meanwhile all Hamas need to do is to look for uniforms
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
I will ask again: Do you think all the Israelis who were killed on 10/7 who worked in the public sector in government jobs were legitimate military targets?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
No but there’s clear means to indicate that they are not military targets because the IDF utilize uniforms as standard doctrine.
It’s Apples to Oranges.
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
I’m not talking about the IDF. I’m talking about people who work as government bureaucrats or teachers for the Israeli government. Do you think they deserve to die as you think people who work to equivalent jobs in must deserve to die?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
They do not but I am also saying that this is a apples to oranges comparison because of the tactics used by Hamas.
Let me put it this way- let’s say Hamas had issued the identical uniform to all of its personnel- everyone from teachers to soldiers, and the only reliable way to tell if the uniform is for teacher, cop, or soldier is to get within day- a foot of them. Wouldn’t that make it harder to tell who is what? And should shooting starts while a teacher is walking to teach orphans how to read- they would likely get mistaken for a combatant because of the identical uniform and because that gatar case in the heat of battle looked like a weapon of some kind.
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
Why are you doing these weird hypotheticals instead of the actual facts on the ground?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Because the facts on the ground is that Hamas is intentionally making themselves look like civilians as they preform military operations.
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
Do you think people sleeping in their home with their families are doing military operations?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Do you think that there should be zero consequences for braking the rules of warfare.
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
Are you really trying to argue that 10/7 was justified?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Nope- not justified.
Now are you going to answer the question? And by consequences I mean actions to render the attempt to abuse the rules of warfare to get advantages moot. IE if you are shooting medics- you can’t cry fowl when medics stop identifying themselves as medics and start carrying weapons like regular soldiers
Fuzzy_Yogurt_Bucket@reddit
So you do think that there should be zero consequences for braking the rules of warfare. Or that Israel should be entirely immune to those consequences.
I’m saying that deliberately targeting civilians while engaging in an ethnic cleansing campaign is bad. Can you say the same?
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
I’m saying that there should be battlefield consequences.
IE; if there’s a case of a false surrender and the next group of soldiers form the same organization tried to surrender and got shot- that is a battlefield consequence.
Shooting up a music festival as a opening move is not a battlefield consequence
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Is anyone really surprised? They genuinely seem to be striving to do the greatest evil they can. Starving people, killing children, even killing infants. Now they are letting gangs steal the minuscule amount of aid they let into Gaza, worsening the starvation crisis.
RajcaT@reddit
What should they do to the gangs stealing aid?
AlfalfaGlitter@reddit
What does this question even mean?
RajcaT@reddit
If I'm following the time line correctly. Israel gives the aid, then the aid is stolen correct? So. Is it being proposed isrseli forces should go in and arrest those who are stealing the aid?
AlfalfaGlitter@reddit
If the aid is not reaching its destination, maybe the rest of the world should intervene.
fajadada@reddit
Rest of the world won’t send in peacekeepers because last time Palestinians killed them. Not all of them of course .
Zellgun@reddit
There’s plenty of Palestinian refugees living across southern Lebanon. Why haven’t they killed the UNIFIL forces?
fajadada@reddit
That is the question. But last time the UN peacekeepers went into Gaza was the last time. No country is going to provide security for them if going into Gaza.
RajcaT@reddit
I'd agree with that
Airowird@reddit
The rest of the world gives the aid, it's Israel's responsability to allow the aid to enter occupied territory and, within reason, defend aid workers handing out food.
Not doing so is pretty much an act of genocide.
RajcaT@reddit
Fair enough. However, isn't the aid exchanged first and then stolen after it enters? Wouldn't taking out the gangs stealing it require isrsel to go into the area and arrest those responsible? Doing so, in such a civilian dense area would also be very messy and likely result in a ton of casualties.
Airowird@reddit
Well, exchanged with whom?
Aid workers? They deserve protection from the occupying force, be it Hamas or IDF. (Sadly, their life expectancy was higher under Hamas rule)
Exchanged with Israel themselves? Then they are negligent in providing the local population of occupied territory food. That is at the very least a war crime, and if done intentionally rather than through pure ineptitude, genocide.
As for arresting those possible, I assume there is martial law in effect, or call the gangs Hamas members instead of the aid workers. I'm sure the IDF could find the appropriate way to handle people stealing food from starving people.
Or, you know, don't go invading Gaza in the first place. Food distribution was not this much of an issue 2y ago, Israel is responsible for the desctruction their campaign has brought.
RajcaT@reddit
That's what I'm asking. When is the aid stolen? If its taken long after it finds it's way in, it's likely very difficult to retrieve it or stop no?
IAMADon@reddit
According to Haaretz.
Airowird@reddit
As far as I understabd, it's stolen between the border and where it needs to be, in an area the IDF controls.
So it's Israel's responsability, regardless of how difficult it is. If they can find Hamas command centets under busy hospitals, I'm sure they can find a gang of bandits if they wanted to.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
I think they are a Zionist trying to be clever.
Appropriate-Draft-91@reddit
You're asking what they should do to the strange armed military age males that are operation in areas under their military's control?
You are aware what what they have been extensively documented doing to unarmed women and children, for the past year, and even the decades before that, right?
Ropetrick6@reddit
Y'know, I distinctly remember Israel breaking the conventions on chemical and incendiary weapons by using white phosphorus on a Palestinian school full of children back in 2009. So they're willing to use chemical and incendiary weapons in civilians, but not conventional weapons on these gangs.
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
Arrest them. No torture, no rape, no murder. I’m puzzled that you even have to ask.
RajcaT@reddit
Who should arrest them?
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
The force that took on the responsibility for security under the Geneva Conventions by taking control of those areas in the first place.
LauAtagan@reddit
The internationally recognised responsible country.
So, as long as gaza is an occupied area, that is Israel.
Decency@reddit
Do you get paid to ask bad questions or is this something you do for free?
SpontaneousFlame@reddit
The IDF.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Here https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/australia-says-serious-idf-failures-led-death-world-central-kitchen-aid-workers-2024-08-02/
“An Australian review into the deaths said the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) decided to launch missiles at the convoy after mistakenly believing it was being hijacked by Hamas fighters, who were in fact locally-contracted security guards.
In addition, information about the WCK convoy’s movements had not reached the IDF team behind the strike, it said. This confusion was compounded because Israeli officials could not directly communicate with the aid convoy, the review added.”
cesaroncalves@reddit
You're spreading blatant misinformation
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68742572
It was 100% Israel fault that those aid workers died along with their security personnel.
That part is from your source.
CurlyJeff@reddit
Imagine unironically posting the BBC as a source for anything Israel related lmao
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
What are you talking about? Israel found fault and a break in protocol and fired the officers involved. How is it misinformation if it’s from a former secretary of defense, is trust that more than a news article.
https://www.dfat.gov.au/sites/default/files/special-advisers-public-report-israels-response-wck-strikes-august-2024.pdf
cesaroncalves@reddit
Your words:
This is false.
---
More like, this one case brought about scrutiny and they had to save face...
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Read the report instead of arguing with your opinion. It’s pretty interesting what a military investigation found via what the news reports.
cesaroncalves@reddit
An investigation on themselves, for something they are know to do, by a military that is known to lie and fabricate evidence, ended up finding that it was a version of an "isolated incident".
Rrrriiiiiigggghhhttttt, To find them credible is to be very gullible.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
The Australian military are liars too? That’s a new one. You’re proving my point that you’re incapable of non group think.
“During the aid convoy transit to the warehouse the Brigade Attack Cell contacted CLA with concerns there were armed individuals on the convoy. CLA attempted through various means to contact WCK, first directly to the convoy, then to international WCK contacts. CLA eventually made contact with the WCK Headquarters in the United States who, after multiple attempts, made text message contact via WhatsApp with a WCK member who had gone ahead of the convoy to the warehouse. They replied that the locally-contracted security personnel had ‘fake guns’. WCK Headquarters replied to CLA that they had made contact with WCK in Gaza and would address the gun issue when WCK completed the task. It was difficult to tie down the exact timing of this extended set of communications; however, they appear to have continued after the WCK vehicles had already been attacked, indicating a lack of awareness by CLA of real-time events”
So they had fake guns?
Except one contractor fired a gun from the roof of a vehicle
“At the WCK Welcome Centre, locally-contracted security personnel got on and into the trucks and the convoy continued the journey to the warehouse. As the trucks moved away from the Welcome Centre, one locallycontracted security person on top of the trailer of the third truck fired his weapon into the air. This was clearly visible in the UAV video, observed by the UAV operator and assessed by the Brigade Fire Support Commander to be consistent with Hamas hijacking the aid convoy”
“The FFAM investigation determined that: • The IDF had not deliberately or knowingly targeted WCK personnel. • Notwithstanding good pre-coordination between WCK and COGAT, specific details about the precoordinated WCK aid mission had not been passed down from higher levels of Southern Command to the Brigade and UAV operator. • While WCK had identification stickers on the roof of their vehicles, these were not visible to the UAV operators at night, adding to the misidentification and misclassification. • Noting Hamas modus operandi had been to hijack trucks and vehicles, the Brigade decision makers determined the armed operatives were Hamas.
So world central kitchen failed to follow their route, hired guards with “fake security guns” one is clearly seen shooting in a video. The nighttime uav footage can’t see the markings and somehow it’s all Israel’s fault.
gravygrowinggreen@reddit
So let's see. You expect me to believe that the UAV footage is good enough operators can identify a gun being fired, simultaneously bad enough that they can't identify a sticker designed to be identified by UAV operators. You expect me to believe that the IDF guessed that Hamas had hijacked aid vehicles, but also that they simultaneously did not know they were aid vehicles. That the IDF couldn't identify the trucks as aid workers due to the conveniently failing UAV stickers on the roofs of them, but also that the IDF spent a significant amount of time calling the WCK because they knew the trucks were affiliated with the WCK. Several blatant contradictions in what you write. Seems fishy, to say the least. Almost as if you have motivated reasoning.
But let's accept everything you said at face value. Israel was confronted with a situation where food trucks might have been taken over by hamas. They did not know if there were hostage aid workers on board. They did not know for certain hamas was even on board. With all that uncertainty, they decided to take a shot that would have a significant chance of killing international aid workers.
Your report reflects a damning lack of concern, I would say homicidal negligence, towards aid workers.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
I stopped reading at your first sentence. Guns create a muzzle flash which is greatly amplified through night vision. Most other things especially from a distance are grainy. I guess you would know better though, you must have seen the footage too.
gravygrowinggreen@reddit
That's cute. The "fingers in ears and shouting" strategy to defending your irrational beliefs. We're done here.
perpetrification@reddit
He stopped reading because it was clear you didn’t know what you were talking about. Maybe you should try learning what you’re talking about. That will help.
perpetrification@reddit
Bro, these are the same people that believe magic snipers are headshotting dozens of children in a row for fun because they heard it on the internet. They won’t accept these facts v
perpetrification@reddit
It’s impossible to reason with them. They wouldn’t believe the facts of reality even if they were there and saw everything for themselves. It’s cognitive dissonance and reality doesn’t fit their Jews-bad narrative
shieeet@reddit
Wow, that's crayyyzeeeeeee! Are you telling me Australia’s limp-dicked investigation, where they regurgitated IDF talking points and self-audit - and then merely pinned the blame on criminally gross negligence on the part of the IDF - rather than acknowledging the intentional and malicious killings of aid workers after the fact that they were internationally condemned? Oh boy, that sure was an embarrassing example for me to use when generally gesturing towards the IDF’s otherwise notoriously callous approach to crimes against humanity!
Anyway, in that case, let’s just throw it on the rest of the worldrecord-breaking corpse pile of humanitarian aid workers that just keeps dying and dying in the Gaza killing fields and call it a day.
This is totally not intentional, btw.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
You guys are so silly. Call things disinformation, move the goal posts, discredit a secretary of defense who conducted an investigation due to the team leader and multiple members of the team being Australian nationals. Use random unattributed quotes and point to them as the truth. Sensationalized news headlines are more credible than a report conducted by an impartial 3rd party who lost citizens. Real sad lack of critical thinking here.
shieeet@reddit
Yeah, ugh, me and my lack of critical thinking! I should listen more to whatever the IDF says, even though they keep getting caught lying and covering up their massacres 🤪
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
It’s the Australian special reporter not the IDF.
JMoc1@reddit
Who’s the primary source for the report?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Videos, records and communications provided by both WCK and Israel. It’s not like Israel told him what happened and he wrote a report. He pieced together the evidence and came up with his conclusions.
JMoc1@reddit
So if the primary source is Israel, who performed the strike, I have to ask if the information filtrated from the IDF is completely truthful or if it comes from their PR division.
Furthermore, when you say that part of the source is the WCK; what information was shown in the article from the WCK?
shieeet@reddit
Read the report, bruh. It's 10 pages of the Australian minister being handheld by the IDF, who in turn admits it was all their fault butthey pwomise not to do it again👶
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
It’s 10 pages of the Australian investigator reviewing documents, videos and communications to form his own opinion about what led to the deaths of Australian nationals. But keep reading what Al Jazeera and mainstream media tell you. I’ll trust the guy who spent 40 years of his life analyzing combat.
Nicostone@reddit
They extermination of palestinians. Nothing new, really
TipiTapi@reddit
I am 100% sure if they found this armed gang and fought to dismantle them you would be crying about how they are intruding on palestinian lives and how noone asked them to be police in Gaza.
perpetrification@reddit
This.
IAMADon@reddit
I don't know why you'd think that. It would be the first time Israel or the IDF actually followed international law, and I think we'd all appreciate that.
It's certainly better than helping to strengthen the ISIS-affiliated terrorists by allowing them to steal humanitarian aid and considering giving them legitimate control over it.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
I love when people bring up the world central kitchen. Read the Australian report, they hired armed guards and modified their plans without notifying the Israelis and there was no ability to communicate between the two sides.
BrownThunderMK@reddit
The whole narrative of "khammaaaas stealing aid" has been debunked yet again it seems. And thats not even mentioning that if Israel let in enough aid to feed everyone, these gangs wouldn't even have to steal it because there would be enough food as to make the scalping strategy worthless.
The real bottleneck is the Israeli border crossing where they let miniscule amounts of aid is, which is an obvious warcrime.
ExplanationLover6918@reddit
Why don't aid workers go through the Egypt Palestine border?
snuggiemclovin@reddit
Every zionist accusation is projection.
lightmaker918@reddit
For those of us who don't have short memory, before Israel controlled any area, international orgs blamed Israel for not letting in enough aid, with no critisim of Hamas gunmen stealing all the aid.
Once the IDF relatively controls the area (as most of those still see active combat), the IDF is still to blame for Gazan militants stealing aid.
Seems like whatever Israel does gets condemnation, so maybe it is not really about Israel's actions, is it.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
When has Israel not controlled Gaza? Gazans could not leave Gaza without Israeli permission. Goods brought in only with Israeli permission and only after being checked by Israeli authorities. Does the warden not control his own prison?
CurlyJeff@reddit
Are you not aware of the border between Gaza and Egypt?
lightmaker918@reddit
Gaza was not blockaded between 2005-2007, until Hamas was elected and immediately began attacking Israel. You can't have it all ways, Israel pulls out and returns territory, gets attacked, blockades so more weapons can't be brought in, gets blamed for controlling the group that leverages european sympathy to portray Israel as willful opressors. This shallow analysis is literally what dead Sinwar was banking on when he decided to bring this tragedy on both our people's.
TipiTapi@reddit
Just because you can besiege and blockade a place does not mean you control it.
The point of a siege is to take control.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Under international law, Israel NEVER LEFT.
Also, when you're the one engaging in a blockade, like Israel has been since the 1990's, you are the one in control of what food goes in and out. Israel had control over the foodz and they decided to use that control to starve Gazas civilian populace.
WeeksAtATime@reddit
Yes Israel are all the victims in this….. Jesus Christ no ones buying that shit dude
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
I mean- October 7th- you don’t try to stab someone, scream how your going to kill hem and he’s family, while having a baby carrier on, and cry fowl if the man dose anything other than lay down and die
enilea@reddit
That's treating a group as if they're the whole population and deserve it. The Hutu also believed Tutsi deserved their genocide because of the RPF.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Is it if one side intentionally use tactics to ensure civilians are always between them and the nation they just preformed a act of war against?
WeeksAtATime@reddit
Ahh the ridiculous human shield defence. Hitting all of your talking points I see.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Are you denying that Hamas engage in tactics that intentionally utilize human shields
enilea@reddit
Yes, it is. One side being awful doesn't excuse the other side, especially when one of the sides is vastly superior in military technology. Both sides want to genocide the other but only one has the power to actually do it. It's not like they have no other option but to act like that, destroying and killing indiscriminately and even being proud of it. I think one thing that riles more people up is the "smug" superiority attitude when doing all that.
lightmaker918@reddit
That's a pretty lazy reduction my point to an emote.
Pera_Espinosa@reddit
Can you think of anything Hamas or Palestinians have done that hasn't been blamed on Israel? I'm sure this parallell between the people that blame the Jews, along with every other similarity they share with the generations that came before them, is a coincidence. Just like it's a coincidence that of the 250 or so Christian and Muslim nations that occupy 90% of earth's landmass, there is no call for any of them to be wiped out as a moral stance, and that the only Jewish nation that occupies .02% of the earth is the one intolerable crime of nation creation that needs to be corrected. All on account of the nakba, the 700k Arabs displaced after 7 Arab nations attacked Israel in what they vowed would be a war of extermination.
Israel's greatest sin, and the underlying justification used by people that want it wiped out, is in not allowing its citizens to be ethnically cleansed just as was the case for every Jew that lived in any other part of the middle east outside Israel. No one giving a fuck about us or making the argument we can rape, murder and maim the citizens of those Arab nations from where we were attacked and forced to flee for being Jews.
I wonder how many of these people know how full of shit they are.
Pklnt@reddit
We've reached a point where people believe that international organizations are on Israel for no reason but to hate on Israel.
You guys are genuinely hopeless.
lightmaker918@reddit
Again hand waved my critisim with a reactionary comment, why even write a comment at all?
Pklnt@reddit
Nothing proves your point, the reality is that International orgs shits on Israel for a reason that goes beyond your pathetic victim narrative that somehow these orgs hate Israel just because they want to.
lightmaker918@reddit
Then riddle me this, why didn't the same orgs criticise Hamas for stealing the aid / letting gangs steal the aid.
Pklnt@reddit
Because Hamas and those gangs aren't the main reason why those people are starving in the first place.
Gaza under Hamas' control wasn't struggling to get food. Once Israel started their military operation, they were.
TipiTapi@reddit
Arent the main reason?
Buddy... if Hamas returned the remaining hostages and surrendered every single gazan could get all the food they need in a few days.
The reason there are troubles with supplying people is that its a damn warzone and noone wants to drive a truck full of food through a warzone and get killed.
Pklnt@reddit
Collective punishment is illegal as per the fourth geneva convention.
TipiTapi@reddit
... if someone crashes on the road I want to use and the police does not let me through until the paramedics finish their job I am not collectively punished by them. I am just an unlucky bystander who had the misfortune of being close to a drunk driver.
I still would blame the drunk driver for making me late not the paramedics - who are trying to fix the problem - blocking me.
People get unlucky all the time and people suffer for something others did - you should blame those people not the ones trying to make sure it does not happen again.
Pklnt@reddit
Bro is trying to compare being late to being starved, you are out of your depth, just stop talking.
TipiTapi@reddit
I am pretty sure if you ask the very easily accessible chatbots we have nowadays they will explain what this comparison tried to tell you. So, theres no excuse for you, really.
I thought about it for a minute and I really dont have an easier to understand comparison, you still not getting it is pretty telling to be honest.
lightmaker918@reddit
Article from Febuary "Gaza aid distribution limited by stealing and looting amid famine concerns, Israeli military official claims"
Distribution to the 70% of Gazans the UN says are experiencing "catastrophic hunger" has been limited.
A UN official said it’s been difficult to distribute aid because the security situation in Gaza has deteriorated.
https://abcnews.go.com/International/gaza-aid-distribution-limited-stealing-looting-amid-famine/story?id=108350971
Pklnt@reddit
How does that change anything?
It is Israel that destroyed public order in Gaza, it is now Israel's responsibility to ensure that the aid is properly received.
lightmaker918@reddit
My original argument was overly biased criticism from international orgs, if the point has been made we can be done with that and continue.
Yes, it's Israel's responsibility to make sure enough aid is going in and is being properly distributed to the best of it's ability. Hundreds of aid trucks have been entering for the majority of days into Gaza, as reported by the UN, and given no mass starvation related deaths have been reported, it's been upholding said responsibility.
tallzmeister@reddit (OP)
But its letting gangs operate under the IDF's skirt and control food distribution according to this article - thats literally the point.
lightmaker918@reddit
> Reported by who? Havent the IDF slaughtered more journalists than were killed in WW2 and Vietnam war combined and banned entry to international journalists?
You can't assert IDF targets journalists by claiming a high number of them have died. A large number of people died in this war, and journalists put themselves in the front line. Not to mention journalists who collaborate with Hamas.
Nevertheless, we literally get daily reporting from the northern Gaza, you posted it on this sub, your point is mute.
> BBC: Virtually no aid has reached besieged north Gaza in 40 days, UN says
Sensational headline for the 100th time, have there been any mass starvation reported deaths?
Pklnt@reddit
Yes, somehow ngos whose sole purpose are taking care of civilians, somehow all decided to be "overly biased" against the state that impsed a total blockade of Gaza.
lightmaker918@reddit
Is it really that surprising that people who year after year work with people in a conflict zone on daily basis become sympathetic to their cause, and are willing to use any influence they have to sway the political situation in their favor.
There's no total blockade if hundreds of aid trucks enter every day, is it?
Pklnt@reddit
The pro-Israel brain in a nutshell.
Those aid workers are not sympathetic to their suffering, no, they must be sympathetic to their cause.
lightmaker918@reddit
I pointed to where the UN orgs failed the people they should be helping by not criticising Hamas, it's you who's obviously blind to clear bias.
CriticalReneeTheory@reddit
Never materialized? Hundreds of thousands of people have died already and are dying daily. Are you high or just that racist?
lightmaker918@reddit
Hundreds of thousands, aha. Isn't it tens of millions? You're citing numbers even Hamas doesn't.
snuggiemclovin@reddit
Show me a single credible source claiming that “tens of millions” have died. Gaza only has 2 million residents, and estimates are that 200k have died. You’re exaggerating those claims to fulfill your victim narrative.
lightmaker918@reddit
Hey dude, I was sarcastic to his exaggeration
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
I'm not sure why you're framing this as somehow being the inverse of the previous statement, like Israel are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Before they controlled the territory, Israel were required to let in sufficient aid under international law. After they took control they're still required to allow enough aid in and also required to provide security. These are separate valid criticisms and Israel has done a lot of shit to earn them, on top of the various other clearly demonstrated systematic war crimes like widespread torture and forcing civilians to check buildings for traps etc.
lightmaker918@reddit
> took control
Taking control is not binary. There's still active combat which makes the IDF's core priority to fight militants rather than facilitate civilian responsibilities. Limbo in active war zones is to be expected.
My argument is the critisim is moving the goal post to whatever Israel can be blamed for.
Outside the area? Not letting enough aid, nvm that all the aid is stolen, no criticism for Hamas.
Inside the area and enough aid is entering? All the aid is stolen, no criticism for Hamas continued fighting, which create the chaos conditions which don't allow the IDF to control the area and safe guard convoys.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Perhaps the criticism is just pointing out the various separate things that Israel can accurately be blamed for? There's no obvious reason why someone doing multiple things worthy of criticism should expect to only be criticised for one of them.
These aren't binary opposites. Someone criticising Israel for failing to allow in enough aid, and then later criticising Israel for failing to provide security in an area it also prevents anyone else from functioning as an effective government isn't being a hypocrite. They're criticising Israel twice, and on both occasions those are valid. I don't see the issue you have with this, unless it's just that you don't like Israel being criticised for things Israel does.
lightmaker918@reddit
Correct, my point is where was the criticism from those same orgs for the same actions, just under Hamas.
You could argue they were being pragmatic to allow to continue function, which is fine, but also proves my point about painting a false picture and being disingenuous while delegitimizing a sovereign country's responsibility for protecting it's civilians.
You could also argue they're ideologically captured, which a large part of them probably are.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
I don't see how? Failing to criticise Hamas doesn't really have any bearing on the validity of separate criticism of Israel. If the claim is that Israel aren't allowing enough aid in, that's true regardless of whether the aid tdot does get in is often stolen by Hamas or random desperate looters on the other side.
Not many outside of Israel accept that starving millions of people is a valid form of self defence.
Of course, it goes without saying that the average person who risks their life to provide medical attention to desperate civilians in a warzone is probably doing it out of sheer hatred for Jews.
lightmaker918@reddit
Those criticisms were unfounded, enough aid trucks have been entering, and that Israel isn't limiting the amount of aid entering, as seen by the daily COGAT reports for hundreds of trucks each day for the vast majority of days in the last year.
The main problem back then was distribution, and that was soley on Hamas.
To keep on track my overall point was what those orgs say is biased to paint Israel in a certain light, which is sometimes at odds with actually helping Palestinians suffering through food insecurity.
No where did I claim that is valid, nor do I agree that is what Israel is doing, as evident by mass starvation reported deaths not materializing.
Again, you're misrepresenting my argument. Ideologically captured to help the Palestinian cause does not equate to Jew hatred, that's something only a radical on either side would say.
People willing to go to a war zone to distribute aid and have been there for years, likely have very strong political views on the conflict, and would want to use their influence globally as an outsider to further the plight of the people they're there helping, nothing surprising about that.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
No, they weren't, and aren't. Israel literally blocked everything at the start of the conflict, and continued blocking arbitrarily long after that:
https://apnews.com/article/israel-gaza-rafah-aid-us-senators-2bc2a3c5e5f8af8e2d3f0b7242c1a885
You don't think Israel utterly devastating the entire strip and hitting many times more buildings than Hamas have total members could have contributed to issues with distribution? Or the fire policy that was so lax it lead to IDF hunting down WCK workers with drones on a pre-agreed route, and killing several hundred more over the conflict?
According to Israel yes, but not according to all the various international aid organisations who actually understand these things.
No, but it was the only reasonable interpretation of what you did say, which was that the criticism of Israel over blocking of aid and failing to provide security are somehow counter to Israel's right to defend itself.
Ah, so it's just a generic term for opinions you don't agree with being arbitrarily invalid, fair enough.
lightmaker918@reddit
Obviously there is war and distribution of aid would be affected. Are you really under the impression Israel should not have hit over the number of building Hamas hit, because that's how war works right.
From tens of thousands of strikes, there was one instance of terrible decision making that led to the WCK bombing. I don't believe it matters for you how diligent Israel is in it's war, you'd rather it just not pursue it and get massacred by Hamas and it's proxy neighbors over and over. That's very rich coming from the safety of your home that hasn't been under direct threat in your life time.
If an IRA led Irish government kidnapped 200 people from the UK, and massacred and gang raped 1200 more, you would criticize the UK for going too hard on Ireland while fighting it's army.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Yes, because unlike you I don't accept on faith that Israel have been exvlusively striking military targets. I think the other clearly demonstrated war crimes Israel are known to have committed such as systematic torture and use of human shields show a clear desire for revenge and callous disregard for Palestinian lives, and this is backed up by the rhetoric coming from Israeli politicians and military. To me it is very plausible that the reason they destroyed far more buildings than could possibly be argued to be the number of military targets in all of Gaza is because the war has been partly punitive in nature towards the population of Gaza.
The fact that you believe this to be the one instance isn't a particular good sign for your judgement either. The chances of the only times Israel have struck the wrong people to exactly line up with the number of times they've hit foreigners who could not be portrayed as Hamas are infinitesimal. The vast, overwhelming majority of interactions would be between the IDF and local Palestinians. Similarly the reason we heard about Israel killing their own surrendering hostages in the street isn't because there was one occasion where they shot people who were surrendering. It was because there was one occasion that couldn't be buried and couldn't be claimed to be probably Hamas.
The IRA did kill hundreds of civilians and set bombs off in pubs and bars and streets across the UK for decades. The response wasn't to block the press from entering, level most of Catholic Northern Ireland with missiles and ban the leader of the UN from the country.
lightmaker918@reddit
If Israel was so indiscriminate in it's war, we wouldn't have seen men over represented in the UN data, and the militant to civilian casualty rate be around 1:2.
Let's hear your strategy on how to combat Hamas militants without going door to door, then destroying buildings, many of whom are booby trapped and have tunnel exists at concealed places.
I was talking about a situation where the IRA was the administrator of Ireland, not that it's an insurgency under British rule. Gaza was ruled entirely by Hamas with no Israeli boots on the ground since 2005.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Why not? Men would be outside far more often as Gaza is a conservative society where men more commonly work, and would also take on the social roles of seeking food from aid distributors, digging through rubble to find the victims, searching for missing family members etc. The Srebrenica massacre was almost entirely men and teenage boys and I don't think anyone tries to argue this is proof it was actually discriminate and aimed at military targets.
I haven't said not to go door to door. I've said I think some of what they're doing is punitive. Here's an example of the destruction being clearly described as for revenge.
More than half of the West Bank is under Israeli occupation and their tactics there have also been considerably more brutal than British tactics were. Bloody Sunday was a travesty that was disavowed, lead to decades of investigations, and eventually a formal apology. In the West Bank it would be regular crowd control, and that isn't even hyperbole.
tallzmeister@reddit (OP)
I dont think that in response the UK would have ever flattened ireland with 2000lb bombs, cut off water and food supply, carried out state-sanctioned rape of detainees, killed tens of thousands of women and children, banned all international journalists from enterring, or killed more journalists that WW2 and Vietnam war combined.
“The number of aid workers killed in Gaza in the past year is the highest ever in a single crisis.” Statement by Principals of the Inter-Agency Standing Committee on the situation in the Occupied Palestinian Territory
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/statement-by-iasc-23sept24/
lightmaker918@reddit
Of course you don't, you'd be online claiming any single thing they do is genocide aswell. Always with the what not to do, never with the way to do.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Bro, 2 weeks into this war last year people were saying Gaza was going to be out of food and people would starve to death in weeks. It’s been over a year and there hasn’t been a single report of any starvation deaths. Seems a bit sensational to make this a key point of your argument.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Surprised you didn't know about this, but Israel quite literally blocked all food and water at the start of the conflict:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/defense-minister-announces-complete-siege-of-gaza-no-power-food-or-fuel/
That would have caused starvation for the reason that if you don't have any food, you will starve. Fortunately international pressure forced Israel to end that policy, and that pressure has continued since.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
So you want to argue on the basis of “would haves”? Seems like a weak position to me. Show me another instance of a country starting an invasion and being required to supply their enemy with water, electricity and food from the start? Actually, show me another Arab country who supplies Palestinians with power or water?
tallzmeister@reddit (OP)
You think the fact that palestine is forced to rely on israel for food and water is.... not a sign of a brutal occupation? You think it's a sign of israel's benevolent generosity?!
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/11/the-occupation-of-water/
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
What happened to all of the farming infrastructure Israel left? Oh yea Palestinians smashed the greenhouses and dug up the water pipes. Do you know why Gaza has contaminated water? It’s because they drilled a bunch of wells against international advice and because Egypt flooded tunnels in Rafah which contaminated the ground water. What about the billions in aid that Hamas stole and moved to its leaders? Maybe that could have gone to food and water infrastructure no? Stop infantilizing terrorists.
tallzmeister@reddit (OP)
Stop spreading misinformation please
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
No no, this is quite literally the only thing to consider when arguing that people made a particular prediction 2 weeks into the war. If you want to say that was a bad prediction you need to explain why people should have assumed that a policy of allowing no food or water in would not have lead to starvation.
They weren't required to supply it. They were required to not prevent it from being supplied. Because they enforced a blockade that meant the options were "commit one of the most horrific atrocities in all of human history by starving millions of people to death" or "allow food to be delivered".
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
But nobody has starved to death so it’s a pointless discussion to have
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Sure, because the flawless medical records from the region where 80% of the hospitals have been destroyed with missiles and the press are barred from entering would tell us perfectly if any of the deaths were due to starvation. But then why did you bring up what people said a year ago if it's a pointless discussion?
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Ah yes Israel just bombed the hospitals, there was no way terrorists ever used them as bases because Al Jazeera said they would never. Hamas has bragged about using hospitals for decades now.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
I've no idea why you think that Hamas using some hospitals as bases or tunnel entrances means that those hospitals weren't bombed.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
Remember the hospital Israel bombed? But it was actually a PIJ missile?
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Ah, good point, I suppose if that claim was wrong then we should also assume every other case of Israel committing war crimes was wrong. Although if we extend that logic of an anecdote proving a trend, we also need to assume the IDF always lying.
dave3948@reddit
Well one thing Israel could do is let the PA administer Gaza. Bibi doesn’t want to because it would strengthen the argument for Palestinian statehood. So Israel does bear some blame for the lawlessness.
tallzmeister@reddit (OP)
Yep, Bibi personally oversaw the transfer of 100s of millions of dollars in suitcases stuffed with cash directly to hamas to try and divide the Palestinians
BrownThunderMK@reddit
This Bibi quote is insane with hindsight
This just goes to show that the Israeli government has always tolerated terrorism and Islamism, preferring an occasional terrorist attack, rockets, or even short wars over the idea of (gasp) ending the occupation and giving Palestinians human rights. On 10/7, that calculation turned out to be ruinous.
Of course, they learned nothing over the last year and have decided to triple down on the occupation.
roydez@reddit
It's ridiculous how there are blatant public quotes of how they prop up Hamas as a strategic asset and yet "what about Hamas?" is still like their goto defense.
Atheizm@reddit
It's so amazing to come to this subreddit and read all the hot takes from pieces of shit excusing this absolutely barbaric atrocities because Hamas does it. Hamas steals food aid meant for starving Gazans and then tortures people who take food meant for them.
Hoeax@reddit
What we're looking at is a very simple supply and demand problem.
If it's between starving and stealing, that's an easy choice.
Be grateful you're privileged enough to ignore what making that choice is like.
BrownThunderMK@reddit
Israel apologists not having an ounce of reading comprehension exhibit A:
Justavisitor-0538@reddit
Not surprising, really. Just another IDF tactic to starve the population.
A recent investigation by Refugee International found that Israel is deliberately starving Gaza - and found no evidence of Hamas systematically stealing aid.
https://www.refugeesinternational.org/reports-briefs/untangling-the-reality-of-famine-in-gaza/
UN experts have also condemned Israel's "deliberate starvation campaign".
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/07/un-experts-declare-famine-has-spread-throughout-gaza-strip
A recent estimate put the death toll from starvation at over 62,000.
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/papers/2023/2024/Costs%20of%20War_Human%20Toll%20Since%20Oct%207.pdf
We're watching a genocide unfold before our eyes.
TheBeAll@reddit
The Palestinians are stealing their brothers and sisters aid. The IDF needs to do more to tackle these gangs and orders of magnitude more aid needs to flow in. Sadly the IDF does not give a shit about Palestinians and like you said, is probably letting these gangs run wild on purpose.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they’re collaborating.
CriticalReneeTheory@reddit
The IDF needs to do less. As in, go the fuck home.
TheBeAll@reddit
I agree, but there is nobody else to stop the gangs
self-assembled@reddit
The IDF need to GTFO. They are killing dozens of innocents every day there, do not ask them to become police, that is exactly what they want. "Oh these barbarous gangs of brown people are stealing the food, looks like we need to patrol here forever"
TheBeAll@reddit
I don’t know how that will help the gangs of aid stealers?
CriticalReneeTheory@reddit
If the IDF leaves they won't need aid 🙄
TheBeAll@reddit
Gaza cannot survive without aid, they have no industry or farmland.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
So you want them to patrol but also leave? They’re not patrolling and you’re mad about it? I’m confused, seems like you are too.
self-assembled@reddit
Where did I say I want them to patrol? They only know how to kill children and bomb hospitals. Their presence there is entirely an ethnic cleansing program. I am saying they engineered this entire scenario in order to create a false pretense for more permanent occupation and patrolling.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
These hospitals?
https://www.foxnews.com/world/gaza-hospital-safe-place-hamas-terrorists-hospital-chief-admits-interrogation
https://www.foxnews.com/world/un-accused-downplaying-hamas-terrorists-use-gaza-hospitals-new-report-ignores-important-details.amp
“In its report, the commission also described how “two [Israeli] hostages had been held in [Gazan] hospitals and received medical treatment for their wounds.” What the commission failed to mention, according to Bayefsky, is that the hostages’ “treatment” involved “doctors pouring chlorine and vinegar onto hostage Maya Regev’s dangling foot in order to cause pain,” or cutting “into her without pain relievers.” They also fail to address how “Gazan doctors pulled a bullet from hostage Itay Regev’s leg without using anesthesia while Hamas members spat on him, slapped him and threatened to kill him if he screamed.”
Seems like maybe the hospitals are used by terrorists to hide from the IDF. I’ll give you some leeway because I’m sure you’re new to following this conflict. Keep tik toking bro.
CriticalReneeTheory@reddit
Fox News lol
self-assembled@reddit
Yeah 100 international doctors from around the world who served in hospitals all around Gaza signed a letter saying they all testify that not one ever saw evidence of any Hamas activity ever. They also testified that the IDF shoots children for sport. Seeing as Israel won't allow any outside journalists in to confirm, or provide any real evidence, you can go to hell along with the IDF. Maybe find a better past time than whitewashing genocide.
Your propaganda doesn't work. You can't cite a literal fox news article which only sources IDF talking points. It's bs and you know it.
GR1ZZLYBEARZ@reddit
I don’t need an anecdotal letter to prove what video has already shown. Hamas brought hostages into hospitals at gun point, there are multiple videos of people shooting from hospitals, rocket launchers near hospitals and tunnels under hospitals. There’s the admission of the head of a hospital that he and 16 other people worked for Hamas, there’s video and pictures from his arrest of armed men being marched out of the hospital. But let me guess they were just guards or patients?
There’s also the longstanding knowledge that Islamists use ambulances to transport people and weapons, the Taliban and Isis both employed these tactics. Hamas has admitted to building the tunnels and basically said “there for us and not for civilians, we don’t care if you die”. Israel is supposed to do what? Let them flourish in hospitals? You have a lot of criticisms with no solutions.
self-assembled@reddit
You're talking about the head of the hospital that the IDF tortured to death? Who died after he couldn't walk, naked from the waist down?
https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/05/1149856
BrownThunderMK@reddit
The IDF has been playing border guard to war crimes for years. Never forget Sabra and Shatila were they blocked the exits and watched their Christian allies commit genocide against refugees
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