Part 135 On Demand Pilots, question.
Posted by Global_Job5022@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 22 comments
Good Morning All,
Before getting into the details of what I’m trying to figure out, I have tried searching on here and reading legal interpretations on 135.267 duty and rest. I’m reaching out to the community to see if they have further clarification on the questions I’ll list below.
1) A pilot lives between an hour to two hours away from base. The GOM requires the pilot to show one hour prior to wheels up. The commute the pilot must make would or would not be considered duty time.
2) The company does not put you on rest each day you are expected to fly. The company guarantees ‘x’ amount of days of per month, but on a daily basis does not give any guidance on when they could call you for duty. Essentially requiring you to be on-call when you are not ‘hard-off’. Example: a pilot is scheduled day on, goes about life and its daily routine, but gets a call at 10 pm to report for a midnight departure. Is this legal presuming the company gave no indication to the pilot he or she was under the 10 hours of required rest prior to accepting flight duties? I don’t want to throw around the term, ‘rolling rest’ until I get clarification.
3) A team is dispatched to a flight where the mission could be completed within the 14 hour duty day. This is a multi-leg mission (A-B-C-B-A) with a reposition to start (A-B), then a charter to a destination (B-C), charter back (C-B), then a reposition home (B-A). The crew lands at B airport to find out the passengers are delayed several hours. Bringing into question that they may go beyond the 14 duty time requirement. Can they continue the flight or reconsider sending a different crew that is fresh or overfly beyond the 14 hour duty day. For reference to this question, the crew will not fly beyond the 10 hours in 14 rule as stated in 135.267(b).
I apologize for the long post. I am trying to ensure we stay legal in the eyes of the FAA.
Sky_Jockey@reddit
I’m a 135 pilot 2+ hrs from base. It’s tough to do. But possible to do it well. Driving doesn’t not count towards duty time. But it also does not count towards rest time. I’m laying in a hotel right now because of that. Currently 4 days straight of flights. Which also means about 20hrs of driving. It’s tough.
For my company, If you are on call Your day starts when you’re up and ready. Get a clear understanding of this from the company. For me it’s 7am-9pm. They cannot call me after that. You “can’t” be on call 24hrs a day. Honestly after 3pm or so a pop up wouldn’t typically be worth it for them. But they could for an overnight which aren’t as common in my 135.
Get a very clear understanding of hard days off from the company.
Global_Job5022@reddit (OP)
Thank you for your response. I agree with you that travel is not considered rest or duty. I want to piggy back off of that. Does your company give any directive to when to duty off? I’ve seen and heard of companies saying 30 minutes after arrival excluding required tasks at hand. My issue would be the hour and half of travel you still have to complete after that 30 minutes. Since travel isn’t considered both duty or rest.
Thanks again for your comment.
Sky_Jockey@reddit
no problem! Duty ends 30 months after arrival. Or when duties are actually done. If for some reason you have to continue working it is still duty. But typically takes 30 mins.
Rest doesn’t not begin until you are home or in your hotel room. Now if you skip the hotel room and go party and try to claim you didn’t rest and can’t work that is a different story obviously. And an FBO snooze room does not count as rest either.
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
Good Morning All,
Before getting into the details of what I’m trying to figure out, I have tried searching on here and reading legal interpretations on 135.267 duty and rest. I’m reaching out to the community to see if they have further clarification on the questions I’ll list below.
1) A pilot lives between an hour to two hours away from base. The GOM requires the pilot to show one hour prior to wheels up. The commute the pilot must make would or would not be considered duty time.
2) The company does not put you on rest each day you are expected to fly. The company guarantees ‘x’ amount of days of per month, but on a daily basis does not give any guidance on when they could call you for duty. Essentially requiring you to be on-call when you are not ‘hard-off’. Example: a pilot is scheduled day on, goes about life and its daily routine, but gets a call at 10 pm to report for a midnight departure. Is this legal presuming the company gave no indication to the pilot he or she was under the 10 hours of required rest prior to accepting flight duties? I don’t want to throw around the term, ‘rolling rest’ until I get clarification.
3) A team is dispatched to a flight where the mission could be completed within the 14 hour duty day. This is a multi-leg mission (A-B-C-B-A) with a reposition to start (A-B), then a charter to a destination (B-C), charter back (C-B), then a reposition home (B-A). The crew lands at B airport to find out the passengers are delayed several hours. Bringing into question that they may go beyond the 14 duty time requirement. Can they continue the flight or reconsider sending a different crew that is fresh or overfly beyond the 14 hour duty day. For reference to this question, the crew will not fly beyond the 10 hours in 14 rule as stated in 135.267(b).
I apologize for the long post. I am trying to ensure we stay legal in the eyes of the FAA.
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JasperinWaynesville@reddit
If you want to "ensure we stay legal in the eyes of the FAA" then you should get an interpretation from the FAA that answers your specific questions. Have you researched all the legal interps on the FAA's DRS (Dynamic Regulatory System?) https://drs.faa.gov/browse
As an aside i just took a look at the DRS and found 15 Legal Interps that reference FAR 135.267(b),
Best
Yotankow@reddit
No. This does not count as duty time.
Again no, not legal as rest cannot "be determined prospectively (I .E in advance)" if you are on call 24/7. You must know each day when your duty starts and more importantly, ends so that you know when your rest period begins.
What you are describing is called rolling rest and is a Hallmark of a scummy Part 135 operator.
longlive737@reddit
Very important note: on 3, you are only correct for regularly scheduled duty periods, eg air ambulance, not your typical charter 135 with varying schedules. 135.267(c) is narrow in scope. See Moody Interpretation Question 2
Yotankow@reddit
Correct! I interpreted his original post that way cuz that's what it sounded like he was doing
longlive737@reddit
Okay gotcha. His reference to passengers being delayed suggested to me they didn’t operate under (c), so it’s ok to go over 14.
Global_Job5022@reddit (OP)
This was a discussion I had yesterday with our DO, and it was a medical based flight. I departed our home airport with the intention of completing the entire mission within the 14 hour duty day. I landed at the second airport to pick up medical staff, when I landed I received a phone call from dispatch saying the OR was delayed 3-4 hours potentially putting our day past 14 hours. I mentioned this to my DO and said that since we had an unforeseen delay during our day we can extend until we call fatigue whether that at the 16 hour mark or the 24hour mark. I’m trying to navigate the regulations to ensure our pilots are in the right incase anything were to happen.
Thanks all for your feedback and discussion.
longlive737@reddit
The important thing is whether or not you have regularly scheduled duty periods. Are you always (or very nearly always) on duty from 0800-2000, or something like that? If yes you are governed by the rules of (c) and cannot go over a 14 hour day. If your show times and duty lengths vary, then you are not governed by part (c) and unforeseen circumstances like those you described could allow for delay past 14 hours.
Global_Job5022@reddit (OP)
I think I’m up against a rolling rest issue. Our company does not notify a pilot whether or not they are on duty or not. I’ve had guys that are “available” on the schedule with no communication from the company on whether or not they are in duty or in rest, but will receive a call at 10 pm to come to fly a flight that leaves at 1 am while being up since 7 or 8 in the morning. This could potentially put the pilot being up 30 hours in theory.
Global_Job5022@reddit (OP)
Thank you for your response. My goal was to ensure we are legal. I’ve seen a pattern at multiple smaller 135 operations. My time is coming to the end of the never ending rat race of 135.
longlive737@reddit
No, driving to work from home is not part of your duty day.
This is rolling rest and is not legal. Orellana Interpretation
Yes, it would be legal to continue past 14 hours if the delays were unforeseen when the duty day was planned. Kidd Interpretation Question 2
Global_Job5022@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the response! Further on point one. I’ve seen interpretations that driving to and from base is neither rest or duty. After the completion of your flying tasks, when would rest officially start? 30 minutes after the flight is terminated or when you walk in your home?
Thanks again and have a great day!
longlive737@reddit
Driving can be considered rest, and quite a considerable drive at that. Converse Interpretation
NoGuidance8609@reddit
Exactly, the choice to live as close or as far from base is the individuals.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
Commuting does not count towards duty time.
CommercialCash1564@reddit
you are wrong, commuting indeed is duty time, it is written in regulation.
Yesthisisme50@reddit
No, it’s not.
RescuePilot@reddit
With respect to #2, beware of “rolling rest”. Your rest time should be defined, and known in advance to be legal. There are numerous letters of interpretation issued by the FAA office of legal counsel addressing this issue, for example - https://www.flycompliant.com/uploads/fars/1/135.267%20jimenez%20-%20(2011)%20(Rolling%20Rest).pdf
Global_Job5022@reddit (OP)
Thank you for the response! I trying to ensure pilots at the company have their time respected and not ran over. Beyond Part 91 flights. The majority of our 135 business is pop up trips, and if pilots are “open” on the schedule, they tend to get a call for their airframe to complete the task. I had the feeling this was not legal and wanted clarification because I had that feeling.