Upcoming administration plans to roll back current administrations stricter fuel-efficiency standards.
Posted by Juicyjackson@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 419 comments
bubzki2@reddit
Just give me one pro classic car law change I beg you.
gumol@reddit
what are you looking for?
Snazzy21@reddit
Repeal ethanol gas requirements
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Add pro-kei trucks in there too.
gumol@reddit
are you referring to some specific federal law?
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
It's a by-state thing for keis.
gumol@reddit
Right. Can federal government force something on the states w.r.t keis?
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
IANAL, I guess if they got enough of a fly up their ass they could, but then you're talking about all sorts of things on the table like safety/emissions inspection regs, license plate requirements, etc.
FuckTheFourth@reddit
Yeah, it shitty that some states are targeting Kei cars but the can of worms that would open up by banning states from restricting vehicles is much worse.
persamedia@reddit
LS Swaps that easily pass smog into new or old cars, so long as the engine passes
bubzki2@reddit
Reduce the 25 year rule, for one.
mettaxa@reddit
Think it’s too late for that to make a difference. All the interesting cars we missed out are already over 25 years old.
BananaH4mm0ck@reddit
S660
rconn1469@reddit
M3 Touring.
mettaxa@reddit
Yeah true I guess there are a few exceptions. A manual F20 120d would also make a great daily. Or the newest Suzuki Jimny.
tduncs88@reddit
Those things are so friggin cool!
MotorcycleCar@reddit
I disagree because I would love a Holden Commodore Ute.
racks1700@reddit
Honda S660
0V3RS33R@reddit
Honda S220
bubzki2@reddit
You’re not wrong.
gumol@reddit
Aren't classic cars typically older than 25 years?
patx35@reddit
My dude, the SN95 Mustang and the Catfish Camaro are both old enough to receive Historic or Antique plates in many states.
CompanyHead689@reddit
Chicken tax get rid of it. Roll back CAFE even more.
thedeadliestmau5@reddit
We need another solid 4 years of good V8’s again. 2017-2020 were good years for good muscle
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
Looks ICE is back on the menu bots !
dsonger20@reddit
Although this might be good for having giant V8s in cars again, at the end of the day, this isn’t good for anyone.
It’s a harsh relatively that large engines, despite the music they make, pollute more. Standards that regulate how much cars can pollute are a net benefit. Companies are forced to innovate by creating more fuel efficient yet equally powerful powertrains and cities benefit by having cleaner air.
HailOfHarpoons@reddit
Depends on how you drive. The average in my i30N (90% city driving) is ~16 mpg. 5.0 Mustangs are probably better than that.
kovu159@reddit
Government can focus on emissions under its control (electricity generation, construction) while the private sector focuses on making EVs people want to buy instead of forcing them to buy them.
Koil_ting@reddit
American makers in the 70s and early 80s were the only ones putting emissions regulations onto the cars and it's funny that they get shit for it.
Lowki_999@reddit
The return of the HEMI is probably the only thing I'll get to enjoy out of this administration. Unfortunately. I guess you gotta take your W's where you can get em.
goharinthepaint@reddit
Solution to the Canada issue is flex-fuel big blocks that can run on maple syrup or poutine
Holiday_Albatross441@reddit
It's OK. Thanks to Trudeau's Carbon Tax we can't afford to run cars any more.
tablecontrol@reddit
a little for the car and a little for me. 2 birds with 1 stone
fatitalianstallion@reddit
Don’t you worry, the economy has been fucked so hard the average person is too poor to afford to purchase, run, and maintain a vehicle either a v8.
Drzhivago138@reddit
That's just making an even better case for incentivizing all small engine equipment to switch to electric.
fatitalianstallion@reddit
Can't handle commercial levels with current electric technology. Battery tech isn't there and infrastructure creates the hurdles. Once the infrastructure is in that would make sense. At this time, not so much.
ExtruDR@reddit
I don’t think that any of the two domestic manufacturers really will do much more than release a few “halo” big engine trucks and sedans.
They know what the future is, and maybe this gives them a few more years at the trough before EV becomes inevitable. Feels like being on BBSes just before the internet actually took over…
The funny thing is that the actual good companies also embarrass the Americans with their “fat” engines on their souped up sedans and sports cars.
I get that you get more for your money with an American “muscle” car or truck, but that AMG still wipes the floor with you, as does every Model 3.
fatitalianstallion@reddit
Mercedes doesn’t currently make a large body on frame suv or a pickup truck.
Pushrod V8s are small, similarly sized to dressed 4 bangers
DORTx2@reddit
G wagen?
fatitalianstallion@reddit
Mid size
ExtruDR@reddit
I am aware. I was more thinking along the lines of cars and SUVs. I mean, you have a good point about the LS, but four cylinders make hella power nowadays, and EVs even more off the line, so if it’s just for the feels (so like these loud harley-riding pharmacists), then I guess there is no counter since it’s a feel and aesthetic thing, not a legit performance or engineering excellence thing.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Haha. Yeah, America Bad! Slow fat cheap cars can’t handle! So McDonald’s. Very dinosaur.
ExtruDR@reddit
First of all, I am American. Second of all, I call them as I see them.
For longer than I’ve been alive American cars have been awful.
Why? Because American consumers are not discerning at all and totally moved by marketing.
The typical American cars were built cheaply for people that couldn’t (and still can’t) tell if what they are buying is good quality or value. This is true of many other things, like American food consumption habits, TV, the actual quality of housing, where Americans tend to go on vacation, etc. Americans kept cars for four or five years and moved on since they couldn’t last much more than that. They waren’t designed to either.
It is mostly cheap, “more is better” slop. Olive Garden and Panda Express consumption marketed as quality food.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
God I love this. Please just meaningfully cite anything you said. Even the incredibly easy to Google things like length of ownership.
While you’re on google head over to flights and book a plane ticket so you can go get some perspective.
ExtruDR@reddit
Are you telling me that the fine American autos made during the big three’s peak in the 70s and 80s were fine designs that were engineered to last for decades, even with the headliners that practically drooped down from the factory and the beer bottles in the door and all that good stuff?
Are you expecting academic citations? Cars were total shit during that time while European and Japanese companies dog walked a very complacent and lazy American auto industry.
The lifeline came with SUVs and even then bailouts and getting sold off to French/Italian conglomerates still happened.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d like me a nice new ‘vette, but I would always know that I’m driving a knock-off Ferrari.
Mojave_Idiot@reddit
Relitigating 50 years of automotive history to grind your axe is crazy. Damn.
ExtruDR@reddit
I don’t really care. It’s not like a rusty old Pontiac ran away with my wife of something.
I just hate that people romanticize or overhype very mediocre products. I mean, there are plenty of people in my generation that have ‘memberberries for truly awful Saturday morning cartoons and snack foods from the 80s. I mean, it’s fine to reminisce, but call it for what it was: crap.
thedeadliestmau5@reddit
They will make what they can get away with by law and what will sell. We saw many great high displacement cars come out during laxed emission standards. More of those cars are driving on the road now than ever and air quality is STILL better than it’s ever been…
RelativeMotion1@reddit
Development cycles are longer than a single presidential term. This won’t really change long term plans. At most, it’ll just keep existing gas powertrain options going for a few more years than previously anticipated.
RiftHunter4@reddit
Dodge is about to unveil the 2024 Last Call Chargers with the "FR On God I'm serious this time" trim.
spvcebound@reddit
"On my Mama" Edition
Realtrain@reddit
Let's be honest, which company is going to start development of a new engine knowing full well that the standards will likely be re-implemented in another 4 years.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
lol. I for one like having breathable air.
kovu159@reddit
This is about fuel efficiency requirements, not air quality.
I for one don’t like forcing all cars to become hybrids and EVs, killing NA V8’s and shortening the life expectancy of vehicles to <10 years due to tiny overstressed engines and fragile efficiency improvements.
juwyro@reddit
For real. I just have to see the pollution from our past and India's and China's present to want regulations for clean air and low emissions.
But also this administration thinks climate change is a hoax.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
In NY we’re having the first drought warning in 20 years, wildfires, temperatures in the 80s in november. Touched 200 aqi
2010/2011 I remember getting a foot of snow every other week. Now it’s almost december and I haven’t touched my parka
Willing to give all my cars away if it means I get to show my grandchildren a proper winter.
NotArguingWithYouBro@reddit
I've yet to change out my Summer tires. It used to be In would swap them out in October. We are coming on December.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
They argue it's a natural cycle.
mk4_wagon@reddit
This weekend I heard from two different family members. One in the camp of "I hate snow anyway, so this is great" and the other was "the earth heals itself". Which... sure... A tree can grow through an abandoned car. But we're fucking things up faster than nature can react.
Averyphotog@reddit
The Earth WILL heal itself, s l o w l y, after the humans have gone extinct.
mk4_wagon@reddit
Correct. I don't disagree with the statement, it's just that the rate it fixes itself is being outpaced by the rate we're messing it up.
UranicStorm@reddit
Well and part of the fixing itself is blotting out the sun and causing mass famines that will kill the human race and most surface life and enter a new ice age lol
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
Looking for being real, the emissions that American cars have on the world are minuscule compared to all of the other pollutants of the world. America can have its v8s, and other parts of the world can have their small engines. America can have solar panels and wind farms while other parts of the world can have coal. Every country should do what it can, but no country can fix it on its own.
FoundryCove@reddit
Well this thread started off by talking about the effect of cars on local air pollution, so whatever global impact they do or don't have is kinda irrelevant here.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
Ya but this is a cars community, not an asthma community
Viperlite@reddit
Air pollution also exacerbates heart disease, causes cancers, and inhibits lung function… and contributes to lung disease. That’s bad for every living thing.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
Being outside significantly increases your chance of dying from lightning strikes. But we still do it. V8s give me joy, joy > the miniscule impact that America's air pollution has on health.
Viperlite@reddit
Air pollution causes close to 100,000 deaths per year in just this country. There are over 283 million registered vehicles in the United States, with over 100 million of those being passenger cars/trucks/suvs.
By comparison, lightning kills about 20 people per year in the U.S.
Multifaceted-Simp@reddit
People have the freedom to move to areas where air pollution is less. No one is forcing people to live in environments where air pollution is higher.
If someone wants to prioritize air pollution they are able to move where they want. If there are enough people that want to move to places where air pollution is reduced then manufacturers would be freely wanting to reduce air pollution.
Also anyone with any understanding of healthcare or public health knows "100,000 premature deaths in part attributable to air pollution" is such a half assed study. Either way the current administration will do what's right and give people their liberties and the freedom to choose where they live
Viperlite@reddit
The people who authored those health studies are in healthcare. Get off your internet research machine.
Also, i cant believe your solution to air pollution is to abandon cities (moving like 100 million people) so you can have a V8. Here’s a newsflash for you. Air pollution blows in the wind and migrates hundreds or even thousands of miles. Many polluted areas are out in the country, like where we drill oil and gas or build power plants or build major highway inter connectors.
Just keep making stuff up to support your viewpoint and personal desire. That’ll totally make it so.
willpc14@reddit
nonsensical idea that's not worth engaging.
it nearly is in some areas with how heavily it's taxed..
not possible with our current public infrastructure
Grants Pass, OR has started this
different implement, but similar sentiment
Grants Pass is also woking on this
technicalityNDBO@reddit
Extinction events are a natural cycle too. Just sayin'.
coloredinlight@reddit
They're also dumb
Mimical@reddit
This is really the key piece of information that people need to understand.
They are really, really stupid.
willpc14@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYTQ7__NNDI
HighFiveKoala@reddit
I can't argue that
sdannenberg3@reddit
They'll dumb it down to their level, and beat you with experience...
SuperGT1LE@reddit
It is a natural cycle
MaybeNext-Monday@reddit
A natural cycle 4 orders of magnitude slower than the change we’re observing. We’re far beyond natural now.
MexicanGuey@reddit
my co workers:
"its getting warmer cuz we are exiting the last ice age. Its all natural bro."
Realtrain@reddit
"And even if it's not natural it's not a big deal anyway"
"And even if it's a big deal, it won't matter until after I'm dead"
xamdou@reddit
In Michigan, it doesn't really snow anymore.
I remember having almost six feet of snow and many snow days as a child.
Now, we're lucky if we get two days where the snow sticks. It usually just melts.
bojangular69@reddit
Same thing for Cleveland before 2012-2013. We used to get absolutely dumped on with snow. I haven’t had a white Christmas in longer than I can remember.
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
Same here in VA! No snow anymore, and I'm 30 and have never even heard of a wildfire here until last year. Now we've had forty three in the last 2 years within 50 miles of my home. My air purifier let's me know about them every other fucking day now. And it's not like I just didn't know they were happening before, they've literally almost got to my house (within 3 miles) multiple times now. And they were within a few hundred yards of my business last year and we had to evacuate.
Last year, in a single week, 25000+ acres burned within 20 miles of my house and every small town around us had drought warning signs saying not to use water unless absolutely necessary.
animealt46@reddit
Climate change is going to be bad, you didn't even list most of the worst effects. But it's worth noting what it doesn't mean. Even if climate change blows past 'catastrophic to humanity' levels, NY will still have harsh cold winters with lots of snow on average.
Dannyz@reddit
Well shit, educate me. What will be the worst effects
animealt46@reddit
Major ecosystem collapse
Food supply chaos due to widespread crop failures and the inability to use traditional 'breadbasket' regions
Unpredictable water supplies and the total drying of major sources of fresh water currently
Coastal region flooding and sea level rise
Mass human displacement from formerly habitable places
MexicanGuey@reddit
Wars will be fought for any available water and farmable land.
Some say its already happening in Russia VS Ukraine. Russia wants to control the breadbasket of Europe.
willpc14@reddit
US states are already having water disputes. No one is immune from it
willpc14@reddit
US states are already having water disputes. No one is immune from it
Activehannes@reddit
It is estimated that at 4C, the Himalayan ice melts at rates that would require us to resettle 700 million people.
For scale, that's twice the US population
MexicanGuey@reddit
The food we rely on will cease to exit. There will be massive famine. 99% of humans will die
MaybeNext-Monday@reddit
If you think food is expensive now, you just wait. Rent will be your smallest expense.
thedeadliestmau5@reddit
Climate Doomers crying in the street and yelling two more weeks at people when nothing actually happens like they say
Mimical@reddit
Tacking on to the other post we know that insect populations are appearing in places that were never seen before, and that major pollinators like bees are at significant population declines. Those two alone can significantly disrupt crop growth and agricultural outputs. New York has a massive agricultural output, massive swaths of the state is just farmland.
As the regular seasons get more weird and as the climate is disrupted those populations swing to their extremes. Further impacting the entire state.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Upstate sure, but nyc hasnt had a “lot of snow” in a good while now, at least relative to the 2000s and early 2010s.
ArcticBP@reddit
I’m in Toronto, its mid November and yesterday I had lunch outside in the park interrupted by wasps…last year I never even wore winter boots once and I think the closest ski hill to me permanently shut down
Carl-99999@reddit
The planet lost.
WatRedditHathWrought@reddit
The planet is fine, it’s just trying to rid itself of a bacterial infection.
laughingatleftoids@reddit
Clean air has nothing to do with the weather cult.
Most people, myself included, want clean air, less pollution and to call out india, china and the third world in general for what they do.
Weather magic is completely unrelated. The hive mind is fully entranced by the cult and believe all that gibberish.
Charming_Cell_943@reddit
We’re referring to carbon dioxide produced by cars which causes the greenhouse effect (higher temps on average, and alters climate). This is the most dangerous aspect of our emissions, and no climate change is not a cult.
marysalad@reddit
Fwiw local air quality (like at street level in cities) is also to emissions controls, CO2 for climate but things like particulate matter and CO for urban areas
Charming_Cell_943@reddit
I agree that both are a problem, I was just addressing how climate change was being called “the weather cult”
ctruvu@reddit
i don’t get calling out india and china when it’s every other country in the world asking them to produce everything for an entire planet
juwyro@reddit
They may be separate issues but they both come from the tail pipe.
cookingboy@reddit
The crazy part is it's hard to even talk about this without violating the "no politics" rule of this sub.
But that's only because American is like the only special country on Earth where half the population/politicians are obsessed about turning cut and dry scientific issues into political issues.
Nowhere else in the civilized world is this a political issue, but here we are, basic modern science like vaccines, climate change, are all being fought against by half the country.
How does a democratic nation function if half the people are this stupid?
Holiday_Albatross441@reddit
It is most definitely a political issue here in Canada. It's going to become more and more of a political issue all across the West as people suddenly realize they're going to have to sacrifice their nice standard of living to try to appease the Weather Gods while China, India and other non-Western countries just laugh at us behind our backs.
cookingboy@reddit
The very fact you deny human caused climate change and attribute it to "weather gods" illustrates everything my comment said. And the fact you are propagandized to believe a green energy transition will lead to "sacrifice nice standard of living" when everywhere around the world proves it's the exact opposite, shows a deeper layer of the problem.
I've never been to India, but I go to China almost every other year. Their EV market share went from 3% in 2019 to 50% in 2024, and they are dumping more money into green energy than the rest of the world combined. And guess what? The economic sectors grew crazy and people's standard of living went up, from lower energy costs to cleaner air.
The only parties this hurt are legacy auto companies with outdated tech (most American companies) and fossil fuel companies.
PubliusDeLaMancha@reddit
I'm convinced the reason America is in decline is because of the bizarre attitude around discussing politics.
They've tried to separate voting from reality when that is in fact the most important aspect of society. Furthermore voters apparently expect decency in return from the people they hate.. It should be made clear that voting for disastrous policies is the least decent thing one can do. And no, we can't just all get brunch together after.
Half the country has seemingly applied the George Costanza "do the opposite" strategy to every aspect of life. Whatever most infuriates experts is their new go-forward position. That is the most cynical vote imaginable, and the easiest to exploit. It's a symptom of a dying republic.
To be abundantly clear, policy and politics are the same thing. Pretending they aren't is the very issue itself.
SizeDrip@reddit
It doesn’t. At least, not at this rate.
WingerRules@reddit
It declines
PlaneCandy@reddit
Breathable air has nothing to do with climate change. Breathable air is literally the emissions from the tailpipe. Its an incredibly simple concept that this sub had a hard time grasping as a good thing for quite a while.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
What do you think the co2 coming out of your tailpipe does? Primary greenhouse gas in human-induced climate change.
And how do you think that high aqi was achieved? Lack of rain, hotter drier temperatures, wildfires. Everything is linked together.
gumol@reddit
While the comment you're responding to is weird, climate change and air pollution are two separate, sometimes conflicting, issues.
You can lower fuel consumption (and CO2 emissions) by increasing smog pollution, and vice versa.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yeah, but my point was I don’t care to separate the two too much because they often go hand in hand.
You decrease smog, increase greenhouse gases, earth heats up, fire or two, your air quality goes to shit anyways.
Bobguy64@reddit
They really don't though. Usually when trying to reduce the amount of pollutants, you make a less efficient engine and therefore make more CO2 and vice versa.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yes - my point being you either get pollutants that either directly hurt breathability, or increased greenhouse gases & global warming, resulting wildfires and whatnot creating unbreathable air regardless
And you can make cars that both get good mileage and have lower pollutants. The wonders of modern technology. The administration above is working towards laxer standards on both.
PlaneCandy@reddit
More rain improves air quality...
hi_im_bored13@reddit
It does https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-21-06-oa-0158
and it undeniably helps with preventing and putting out wildfires - pretty large cause of the awful air quality around here. Like I said it’s all linked.
Hunt3rj2@reddit
It doesn't seem like emissions regulations are going to be rolled back substantially but it's probably fair to say there is going to be a pause in CAFE requirements going up. Tailpipe regulations were barely different. EPA Tier 4 isn't that much more challenging either. Most engines already meet the ULEV70 CARB requirement which is the minimum spec for Tier 4. ULEV125 is the minimum LEV IV CARB emissions standard funny enough, a rare case where it seems like California is actually easier on emissions than the federal government but all of this is not accounting for the fleet average requirements which are obviously going to be more stringent.
So if all of this gets paused at EPA tier 3/CARB LEV III then not much changes other than less EVs/PHEVs coming to market in the near future.
1988rx7T2@reddit
People don’t understand that CO2 emissions regulations and CAFE are not about directly reducing emissions that affect air quality. CO2 is not CO or hydrocarbon. You can have low CO2 and high particulate emissions (smoke on startup for example). That’s basically what a dieselgate diesel did. They actually put out less CO2 in the form of better gas mileage by using less DPF regeneration for example.
Hunt3rj2@reddit
IIRC the dieselgate stuff was really centered on the lean NOx trap which required running stoichiometric once it was full. That would degrade fuel economy quite substantially and generate more PM which would lead to more DPF regens too. So VW just didn't bother to regen the lean NOx trap at all outside of a detected emissions dyno test. Great fuel economy (low CO2), horrible emissions (NOx).
Honda used a lean NOx trap as well, but it was on their Insight which had a dinky little gas engine that would have to run stoichiometric the moment you stepped on the throttle even slightly too hard so there wasn't nearly as much compromise between fuel economy and emissions compliance.
1988rx7T2@reddit
Interesting
Big_Baby_Jesus@reddit
Most Americans don't give a shit about breathable air. So here we are.
Erigion@reddit
As with so many things, most Americans don't remember when the air was terrible in the country.
This was NYC 58 years ago: https://store.nytimes.com/products/smog-covered-skyline?variant=36782995208
We got clean air and have kept it for the most part because of regulations.
Pliskin_Hayter@reddit
58 years ago, we didn't have catalytic converters.
PubliusDeLaMancha@reddit
^most Americans don't remember when the air was terrible in the country
Whats really crazy is that the people old enough to have actually experienced that pollution are the same ones most dedicated to returning to it through their vote
It's almost as if half the country votes out of spite, surely that's a sign of a republic with a long future...
strongmanass@reddit
To put some nuance on it, most Americans don't understand or refuse to believe the connection between clean air, the policies of the public officials they support, and their personal actions. If you ask people if they want clean air they'll all say yes. If you ask them if suiting in an enclosed garage with their car running is a good idea they'll all say no. But they can't or don't want to make the connection between those things and the big picture of town, city, or country-wide air quality.
Pliskin_Hayter@reddit
Pollution from passenger cars accounts for roughly 7% of global emissions.
Rolling back fuel efficiency standards a bit isn't going to make a difference in the air you breathe. Stop pearl clutching.
Utter_Rube@reddit
Fuckin' seriously.
City I live near isn't "huge" by global standards, about a million people, but you can still see the smog if we get a day without a hint of wind.
Savings-Expression80@reddit
US domestic vehicle emissions is a drop in the bucket. I'd rather have jobs 🤷♂️
Utter_Rube@reddit
How do you think tightening vehicle emissions requirements would cost jobs? If anything, I'm inclined to believe the opposite, as more R&D is required and more complex vehicles take longer to assemble, have more parts that need to be manufactured, and may take longer for mechanics to service and repair.
Savings-Expression80@reddit
I never said that. The commenter I replied to quoted a statement suggesting that particular false dichotomy. I replied saying that if there were only two options, I'd prefer jobs 🤷♂️
ArchonOfSpartans@reddit
Have we not had breathable air in our biggest cities for decades? Compared to the 70s smog fest that was LA
hi_im_bored13@reddit
We've continue to have, thanks to regulations.
Drew1231@reddit
Half of the cars in your flair don’t comply with the regulations you’re arguing for.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
They did when new, otherwise they would have been on sale.
Drew1231@reddit
It’s incredibly hypocritical to ask for new regulations that make cars while driving old, fun cars that subvert these regulations.
“I got mine” style politics.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
All 4 cars are in a garage. I take public transit daily.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Air quality isn't a binary concept, we can have a middle ground between unbreathable air and overly strict regulations hampering the industry.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Why do you think the current regulations are overly strict?
GTOdriver04@reddit
That’s what I ironically like about the higher fuel economy regs: it pushes the engineers to develop some awesome stuff.
If Ford knows its customers want a V8 Mustang, but also want 35+ MPG out of it, they’re going to push the envelope to develop it.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
Except that usually comes at the cost of impacting what made it good in the first place. That's how you get things like cylinder deactivation, rev hang, quieter engines and induction, etc. Sure they can keep the V8 but if it's going to have to be straddled with all of that then it sort of becomes a moot point.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Don't forget auto stop start! Literally nobody wants it, and the amount of fuel saved is miniscule, but it helps the EPA tests so it's there. And the fact that it always turns itself on again is due to EPA requirements to allow it to be counted.
markeydarkey2@reddit
10% isn't what I'd describe as miniscule, and transparent auto-start-stop is a great reason why to hybridize (it's not annoying in hybrids).
AndroidUser37@reddit
If you read the article you just sent, the savings are only 10% with the A/C off, and when you have the A/C running (as most people do) the savings drops to 2.9 percent. That's what I'd describe as miniscule.
TheGT1030MasterRace@reddit
I LIKE stop-start. I would never own a vehicle that idled for no reason. If I had to, I'd add stop-start to a vehicle.
PlaneCandy@reddit
Thats more of a problem with the regulation itself
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
Almost like it should be reconsidered and rolled back...
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Reconsidered yes, I don’t know how that’s a case for rolling back. You can implement seamless start stop with a 48v mild hybrid that both reduces emissions and gives a smoother ride at low speeds.
EPA testing, CAFE regulations, no doubt can and should be improved to better reflect the real world, no doubt about that, auto start stop that everyone disables anyways shouldn’t help with scores.
But that doesn’t mean we should lax emissions regs.
PlaneCandy@reddit
Well then too bad? Going real fast in a car is fun, but there's a point where everyone can agree that it is not good for society as a whole.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
Cars are a drop in the bucket and a red herring compared to semi's, large trucks, jets, and boats. It's a scapegoat.
biggsteve81@reddit
And emissions and fuel economy are being improved on large trucks and jets as well. The Boeing 767 is being phased out of production next year because it won't meet emissions standards.
You can improve emissions in all areas; we can do more than one thing at the same time.
Upstairs_Shelter_427@reddit
It is not a scapegoat and it is not a drop in the bucket.
Do not lie - why are you lying?
AndroidUser37@reddit
And we seem to disagree on where that exact point is.
Aero06@reddit
Absolute revisionist drivel. Regulations got us 10 years of choked, ineffectual engines in the 1970's because too many laws were introduced at too short a time between the abolition of leaded gasoline, emissions standards, and fuel economy restrictions in a decade that the American automotive and manufacturing industries never fully recovered after they ceded so many of their sales to the Japanese. Regulations got us Dieselgate because lawmakers implemented the GWSA and explicitly expressed their disregard for VW's wellbeing when they told them they didn't have enough time to re-engineer their cars to meet the standards. Regulations killed the sedan by making small vehicles untenable to re-engineer to fuel economy, exhaust emissions, pedestrian safety and crash safety at a price point affordable to consumers. Regulations killed hybrid development because CARB lawmakers insisted on making no affordances to gasoline-driven vehicles and would restrict sales of cars that weren't "Zero Emission Vehicles." which forced automakers to instead release a decade's worth of half-baked, uncompetitive EV's just to remain compliant.
You can argue that the regulations were a net good for society at large, but acting like engineers just magically rise to the occasion every time a new restriction is put in place, or that cars have only gotten better from restriction-necessitated developments, is an incredibly one-sided narrative that turns a blind eye to a laundry list of detrimental results.
biggsteve81@reddit
There is so much wrong in here I don't know where to begin. We got Dieselgate because VW refused to put DEF and SCR on their engines to keep costs down, not because they didn't have time to re-engineer their engines.
The sedan still exists, but nobody is buying them because consumers WANT CUVs and SUVs. The Accord and Camry are easily outsold by the CRV and RAV4, even when both sedans are arguably better than they have ever been.
And Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, and others are still developing and introducing new hybrids every year; their development has definitely not been killed.
Aero06@reddit
SCR wasn't developed for automotive use until 2005 by which time the standards had already been set, and it was developed for semi-trucks, not passenger economy sedans, it took years for it to be implemented into passenger vehicles by Mercedes by which time it still used defeat software to cheat emissions tests because the standards weren't feasible. The fact that just about every manufacturer ended up using loopholes is a testament to the unrealistic standard these restrictions were set to, it effectively killed the diesel passenger vehicle in the United States. The engineers can't always "build awesome stuff" when unknowledgable lawmakers set the bar way too high.
The sedan still exists, the economy sedan is a dying segment that manufacturers aren't catering to anymore because of the cost of having to completely re-engineer their economy sedans versus the price they could be sold for. A CUV on the same wheelbase as a sedan is allowed to be 20% less fuel efficient and still meet CAFE standards, that's the rub.
Japanese cars are the only ones still building economy sedans because their government has been more accepting of gasoline-hybrid motors (which all of the few remaining economy sedans are switching to in order to meet these standards) on account of them (wisely) appraising their infrastructure as unsuitable for a transition to an EV majority in the near future.
inter_mittent@reddit
During the early 2010's higher mileage requirements led to the advancement and more widespread use of hybrid technology. The rollback following the 2016 election frustrated the out-of-power party, but they saw an opportunity to focus on electric cars with the success of Tesla. Of course some on this sub who favor the current proposed rollback are likely those that exclaim "but why don't they just push hybrids" in response to electric car policy they also don't like.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
>regulation drives innovation
Except there's been even less innovation in the mainstream sports car space than ever before.
* Mustang, Miata, Z, Emira, GR86/BRZ, have all either been milking the same platform for years or have had extremely minor refreshes
* Everything else is based on an existing platform or is cross developed using existing parts
* Really the only car that has done something brand new is the C8
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Porsche with the 911 hybrid system? 3cyl in the gr86? B58/s58 in the supra & m2/3/4? ND2 miata engine is significantly better the ND1 - lots of innovation.
Not to mention - all the sports cars you mentioned still exist. E.g. s650 mustang, more power, yet lower emissions, that’s still innovation. Same for the Z & Emira V6s.
Sports coupes are no longer as large a market as they used to be, less r&d money, less r&d spend, but there is absolutely still innovation in the space when the money is there. The modern BMW inline 6 is a marvel of engineering.
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
>Porsche with the 911 hybrid system
From a technological standpoint it's interesting but from a driving perspective I don't think many are going to argue it's a step in the right direction.
>3cyl in the gr86
Will be cool if it happens I agree.
>B58/s58 in the supra & m2/3/4
I like the B58 but this is where I feel like there's a lack of innovation. The Supra wasn't really an innovation, it was cross developed with BMW and parts shared. Innovation to me would be Toyota developing a clean sheet design. Same with how I feel about M2/3/4 or anything based on an existing commuter car. It's a compromise for cost by reusing parts. Not innovative.
cookingboy@reddit
My dude, we are trying to solve a global crisis here, the fact that Porsche is able to still build fun to drive cars while getting more efficient is incredible innovation.
Prioritize innovation for "driver engagement" over emission make car enthusiasts sound like narcissistic assholes who think their hobbies are more important than the future of the planet.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
If regulations pushed porsche to create a car that’s no worse to drive than its predecessor, but it has fewer emissions doing it, that’s still innovation.
Sorry, meant the 3 cylinder in the GRC. Engineering marvel
I highly doubt toyota would have developed the car themselves had emissions regulations been more lax. Sports coupes are a niche market.
AndroidUser37@reddit
For one thing, CAFE standards are horribly designed as to incentivize larger vehicles on the road. If CAFE got relaxed, there's more room for smaller cars in the market. Additionally, diesel passenger cars seem to have been regulated out of existence here, which is a shame because I really enjoy them and they have some key advantages.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
I do agree cafe favors light trucks too much - but i’d rather they redo the regulations on what a light truck is and/or raise the economy standard for CUVs than reduce the standards for passenger cars
I think we’ve proven by now that clean diesel is a myth, and the benefits don’t outweigh the drawbacks. They have their niche.
AndroidUser37@reddit
The thing is, this isn't as true as it sounds. Sure, VW got taken down for cheating, but the "fixed" 2015 TDIs (the ones with DEF) are plenty clean and still get excellent MPG. Those can get 45+ MPG highway, beating hybrids for freeway commute duty. I also have extensive seat time with a 2022 Suburban Duramax, and that 3.0 I6 gets 25+ MPG highway in a ginormous vehicle with excellent passing power. A hybrid would add several hundred pounds to an already ridiculous vehicle, for less torque and similar MPG.
That Suburban also has had zero emissions equipment issues since new. I think the early 2010s was the equivalent of the malaise era (like when catalytic converters first choked engine output) but for diesels. But now that we've gotten past that era, and good, solid engines are coming out with excellent efficiency, the regulatory environment has shut down the diesel hype train before it could even get started.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Yes, with DEF - that is the complexity I am discussing. Not to mention MPG isn’t the same as emissions - diesel is an energy dense fuel, no doubt, mpg was never the issue, it was C02 & nox. The diesel gate VWs got excellent mileage, with atrocious emissions.
With modern hybrids, you’re getting that extra low down torque and excellent range, but with far, far fewer components (toyota & honda eCVT systems have fewer moving parts than a conventional ice drive train - and obviously no def needed)
Diesels had an incredibly favorable regulatory environment in europe and it didn’t quite work out. Nothing stopping manufacturers from further improving diesel to fit upcoming emissions standards - it’s just clear we’re hitting diminishing returns.
gumol@reddit
Making CAFE apply to trucks is not relaxing, it's tightening.
And lots of disadvantages, smog being one of them.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Their smog disadvantage is exaggerated due to Europe being much smaller / more urbanized. It's also been largely moot since the advent of DPFs and SCR. They also have a CO2 and highway fuel efficiency advantages. Americans drive more highway miles than Europeans do, so more diesels would lower overall fuel consumption. It's also good to have options.
gumol@reddit
having to use DEF is a disadvantage of diesel, yep.
Shmokesshweed@reddit
What's being hampered right now?
AndroidUser37@reddit
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/11/08/toyota-california-ev-mandates-impossible.html
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
When you're incompetent, you sometimes have to go through a little pain.
No surprise that they're whining now that they're behind.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Calling Toyota incompetent is certainly a take.
markeydarkey2@reddit
Their BEVs are really not good and it wouldn't be inaccurate to describe them as incompetent in that realm because of it.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Calling Toyota incompetent is certainly a take.
PlaneCandy@reddit
Hampering industry is another term for spurring innovation. You'd be surprised at what people can do when given the right motivation.
Air quality isnt binary, but it's quite obvious that every percentage reduction in particulates and other pollution leads to an increase in human health outcome.
AndroidUser37@reddit
Except we're hitting diminishing returns. California smog has been at a similar-ish level for 10 years now, despite ever-increasing standards and CARB choking out the enthusiast market. When is enough enough?
strongmanass@reddit
Enough is enough when smog is eliminated. Last time I visited California I could still see the smog line.
AndroidUser37@reddit
I live in Southern California, and trust me, it's never going to completely happen. The geography of the area means that no matter what we do, emissions are going to pile up in the mountain basin. So if smog is a foregone conclusion, CARB should at least allow me to enjoy my enthusiast cars and tinkering.
strongmanass@reddit
Then that means we do everything we can to minimize it, which means ever stricter regulations on fossil fuels and their associated emissions. CARB's objective is clean air; the organization doesn't and shouldn't care about individuals who want to pollute just because their chosen hobbies sre environmentally unfriendly. Your choices on this affect others and contribute to exacerbation of smog. People not caring about emissions is how we ended up in this situation to begin with.
Hustletron@reddit
Well now they are targeted commercial which is the majority of the contribution left, IMO.
Carl-99999@reddit
We need more nuclear! Why is anyone anti-nuclear?
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
No one serious is anti-nuclear exactly, but nuclear power is really expensive and takes a lot of time to get online. There are better alternatives in a lot of cases.
cabs84@reddit
we aren't seeing it here, yet, but battery costs have dropped to the point that solar + battery storage is by far the cheapest way to supply energy.
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V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Because the main reason is Fukushima accident, some people are fearing. However, if you live the place that earthquake not so common or mainland area, you don’t really need to worry about that.
sc0lm00@reddit
Decades of TV and Movies in addition to Russia and Japan having an oopsie. I agree we need more but after leaving Texas I was kinda shocked to see how much we already have on the East Coast.
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
Because how are fossil fuels CEOs are going to be able to afford their 4th Yacht?
Comment_if_dead_meme@reddit
Hey same, but your car not getting 25 mpg instead of 35 mpg isn't causing grandma to wheeze
Kyanche@reddit
I mean most of the people complaining are driving cars that get 12mpg probably.
But beyond that, I'm weighing the difference between a 25mpg car that lasts 20 years.. vs a 35 mpg car that has to get a new engine every 60k miles and lasts about 8 years before getting junked.
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
What fucking car is this? Would love to know. Never even heard of any car being such a shitheap that it needs a new engine every 60k. newer cars are more reliable than ever by the numbers, and are far more fuel efficient on average as well.
GMOrgasm@reddit
its the brand new hyundai strawman
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Don't buy a Subaru then?
patx35@reddit
For gas cars, it has nothing to do with emissions and efficiency, and everything to do with good engineering and proper spending. Remember that EFI cars in the 80s and 90s still has EGR systems, one or more catalytic converters, secondary air injection, and other fun goodies.
For example, I cringe when a modern engine uses rod bearing that are smaller than the rod bearings used in a 1.0L Geo Metro.
Dredgeon@reddit
What we really need are the CAFE laws to be reapproached all they do is motivate these companies to build heavier bloated vehicles, not put smaller engines in.
Mackinnon29E@reddit
They do nothing to hamper American job growth, just profit margins for shitty auto makers.
balirious@reddit
We have that already. Anything further is nothing more than a cash grab
WendysChiliAndPepsi@reddit
Yeah back in 2010 I remember seeing people dropping left and right because the smog was just so terrible. Whenever a high revving NA E92 M3 went WOT by me I almost passed out. I'm so glad everything is a downsized turbo now. 15 years ago people couldn't even step outside and now we can!
cabs84@reddit
tbh, i remember some of the summertime bad air days in the mid 2000s here in north metro atlanta, we had some purple smog days - a combination of very hot weather and very still air. the tall trees behind my parents house, maybe 200' back, had a very noticable haze to them. atlanta lost out on a lot of federal funding for freeway expansion due to noncompliance with the clean air act, and rightfully so. traffic is still garbage here, but the air quality has gotten a good bit better since then.
i couldn't imagine living in LA in the 70s, or NYC in the 50's. you could probably taste the shit.
mk4_wagon@reddit
The air quality of LA in the 70s is one of the reasons my grandparents didn't move there - and that was coming from them living in Brooklyn and then Long Island. My grandmother stepped off the plane and immediately had breathing issues. I lived there 9 years ago and on a clear day you can make out he ocean from Griffith Observatory.
BahnMe@reddit
You're getting downvoted for being right. People seem to be fucking confused stupid confused about emissions and mileage.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
The two go hand in hand. Producing fuel isn’t clean, and while it isn’t the subject of this article, the administration above cut C02 emission regs in his previous term.
Carl-99999@reddit
Now say what you mean.
thedeadliestmau5@reddit
And I like having cheap fuel AND breathable air just like I did between 2017 and 2020
avoidhugeships@reddit
We all want clean air. Has to be consideration for cost and that effect on citizens as well though. We have made great strides in cleaner air and efficiency. We should continue to do so at a reasonable pace.
Quatro_Leches@reddit
they just need to remove some of CAFE's bs laws and keep everything else.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Don't worry, it'll be sold in cans. "Ayre" (tm), it's what all the hustlers are doing now!
hi_im_bored13@reddit
You joke, but I see more and more cars with hepa filtration systems, and there are several countries where I do carry oxygen with me.
tatsumakisenpuukyaku@reddit
I'm old enough to remember how things smelled before these regulations. It was awful
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
Blame the current president. All he had to do was back down and not commit to a second race and you know put the country before his pride
peaseabee@reddit
Just relax the time frame. US passenger cars contribute to 2.5% to global CO2 emissions. Whether or not we stretch out the EV transition a few more years doesn’t make any difference for the planet.
More_Biking_Please@reddit
They also account pollutants which have local effects, such as particulate matter, volatile organic compounds and carinogens. So even if you feel that there were no global benefit, there is still benefit locally to transitioning faster.
gumol@reddit
that's a lot though.
peaseabee@reddit
We have different definitions of “a lot”
Activehannes@reddit
It all adds up. Germany is responsible for 2% global CO2 and my fellow Germans tell me that it doesn't make a difference. If Germans tell me 2% doesn't make a difference, and the franchise tell me their 2% doesn't make a difference, and the British tell me their 2% doesn't make a difference, and the Italians 2%, and the US cars 2.5%, that's already 10.5%.
We are not just looking at cars. We look at everything that emits greenhouse gases and we have to tackle all of that
peaseabee@reddit
The speed with which the US transitions to EV is not a significant contributor to global emissions and climate change. That is a fact.
Other countries can decide what to do irrespective of our transition timing.
Activehannes@reddit
That's not a fact
peaseabee@reddit
OK, Mr. pedantic. How about this: “the speed with which the US transitions to electric vehicles is highly unlikely to affect the global climate.”
Activehannes@reddit
That's not true either? What are you on here?
peaseabee@reddit
Bruh. Why don’t you explain to me how 2.5% and what happens to that 2.5% is gonna make a big difference in the global climate?
Arnas_Z@reddit
Ok, sure. But the US side of things can only change the US 2.5%. so what we do is ultimately worthless without cooperation from everyone else in this pie chart.
Drzhivago138@reddit
So the answer is to just throw up our hands and do nothing?
Activehannes@reddit
Everyone cooperate tho. Every country agreed to the Paris agreement (except president elect). Every country is working hard to combat climate change. Not hard enough. But you can't argue that nobody cares. If 50 different 2% sources go to 0%, we have reduced the effects of climate change. That includes the US cars, which is the largest contribution of US co2 emission
Activehannes@reddit
/u/Arnas_Z
Arnas_Z@reddit
So if you removed all 2.5% hypothetically, would it make a difference? Absolutely not. Passenger cars are not worth worrying about.
gumol@reddit
*US passenger cars are not worth worrying about.
So what is worth worrying about? Everything can be broken down into small enough amounts so that they don't matter.
Arnas_Z@reddit
Not everything, there are other segments that contribute far more. Those are things that should be focused on.
roboticWanderor@reddit
Wrong. This 2.5% number is misleading.
If you are talking about US emissions, the largest sector is transportation, and the largest portion of that is cars and trucks.
There are not bigger slices of the pie that can be "focused" on much better than regulating the MPG of all new vehicles sold.
here is the chart for you: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions
please if you have any brilliant ideas to save the world do share.
gumol@reddit
I’m curious to what those things are
roboticWanderor@reddit
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/energy-and-the-environment/images/CO2-emissions-spaghetti-2023.png
The transportation sector is almost entirely ICE emissions, and the greatest single source of co2 emissions in the US. We are one of the largest markets for new vehicles, and thus the demands from our markets have effects in every other country on the globe.
By reducing or even eliminating the co2 emissions of our own transportation sector, we can drive down way more than 2.5% of global emissions. It is worth worrying about.
rconn1469@reddit
Source on that stat?
gumol@reddit
USA emits 13.5% of worlds CO2
https://www.climate.gov/news-features/climate-qa/does-it-matter-how-much-united-states-reduces-its-carbon-dioxide-emissions
39% of that is transportation, so we're down to 5%
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/energy-and-the-environment/where-greenhouse-gases-come-from.php
Roughly half of transportation is cars (I don't have a source right now though, and this comment is already a lot of work). So it kinda checks out.
Or another way
Annual emissions for passenger cars is 370 million tons CO2 equiv. Global emissions are 37 billion tons. That works out to 1%.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1235091/us-passenger-car-ghg-emissions-by-vehicle-type
https://www.statista.com/statistics/276629/global-co2-emissions
peaseabee@reddit
Yep
flop_plop@reddit
Doesn’t California have their own standards that are stricter than the federal government?
Considering they have more cars on the road than any state, I kind of feel like this is just going to make manufacturers slap a less efficient catalytic converter on it for other states and charge the same amount MSRP.
I don’t see this causing car prices to go down at all.
kingvblackwing@reddit
Genuine question:
How is this supposed to benefit Americans?
Even if regulatory costs are eliminated for automakers, there’s no guarantee that OEMs will pass those savings onto consumers. ICE cars would likely stay the same price, EVs would become more expensive without incentives, and the environmental impact would only worsen.
SeriousMongoose2290@reddit
They will also likely still build to California/EU standards not just US standards. So I’m not too worried.
ResEng68@reddit
California gets to set standards by virtue of a waiver from the Feds.
It'll be interesting to see how long that waiver holds. My bet is 2 months.
lalabera@reddit
States rights though
ObligationSlight8771@reddit
Hopefully it last longer or they figure out a way to get around it
gumol@reddit
California standards might get banned
Agree-With-Above@reddit
Unlikely. As the 5th largest government in the world, not being able to sell there is suicide for OEMs.
AndroidUser37@reddit
CARB's authority is determined based off a waiver from the EPA (the federal government). If the waiver gets revoked, they have no more power to set specific emissions standards for their area, and it defaults to the federal ones.
lalabera@reddit
States have rights lol
gumol@reddit
The reason why California is allowed to set their standards is because EPA granted them an exemption. EPA is executive branch, so this exemption might get revoked.
US president elect mentioned he's looking to curb California authority on cars.
He tried revoking that exemption during his first term, but a court denied it. This time around courts are stacked in a very different way, and if a case about it makes its way to SCOTUS, I'm guessing it's not going to go California's way.
JS1VT51A5V2103342@reddit
Cali is nuts for laws and would NOT back down. They would redo their EV mandate for 2026 instead.
Realtrain@reddit
Is this the "States rights" I keep hearing about?
DemocraticDad@reddit
The issue is that its causing trouble and pain for more than just Californians, Newsome is throwing his weight around to hurt americans in other states as well.
The damage he's caused has exceeded the boundaries of his state, which is an issue no matter how you slice it
Dark_Knight2000@reddit
The truth is that states’ rights as an ideology does not and cannot exist without massive compromises.
If a state wants to fortify its national border, and another state doesn’t, yet both states are part of a union, then nothing stops illegal immigrants from moving to the next state. Same with gun laws. Same with any law that concerns human liberties, rights, and privileges.
“States’ rights” was always a red herring.
Arnas_Z@reddit
RIP Cali, lol. I'm so sad for them, truly.
Deemo13@reddit
They may work around it as they did in the early 2000's and late 90's. For example making a 49-state car and then a CA version.
Dark_Knight2000@reddit
They did that with the BMW N51 engine, a CA only version of the regular N52
Agree-With-Above@reddit
Back then doing emissions for CA only was relatively easy due to the regulations being so much looser. It might have just been a cal change. Now it is tremendously harder
Deemo13@reddit
Similarly with the NB1 Miata. Engine was the same but the cat setups were different.
MSDOS401@reddit
We can always hope
gumol@reddit
States rights, am I right?
thedeadliestmau5@reddit
They get a waiver from the federal government for it so no it’s not States rights
gumol@reddit
this logic applies to anything that is regulated by federal government, which makes the entire “states rights” phrase meaningless.
thedeadliestmau5@reddit
No it doesn’t, federal government must recognize rights. A waiver approved by the federal government for a state to bypass its regulation is not a right it is a privilege.
gumol@reddit
Again, people who the phrase “states rights” are usually upset that federal government is not recognizing the states right, and regulating it themselves instead of leaving it up to states. No matter what the contentious issue is
reegz@reddit
Only when it’s convenient apparently lol
tatsumakisenpuukyaku@reddit
I too love pollution
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deerblanket247@reddit
Their proposed policies aren’t about benefitting Americans. It’s about enriching the themselves, their buddies, and Christian nationalism.
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
The 'Americans' it benefits are executives. Not us
BlackTed@reddit
Who do you thing is buying these gas guzzling cars?
Funny_Frame1140@reddit
These cars will still costs +$50k lol. They aren't going to suddenly drop in price
Nephroidofdoom@reddit
Also common sense also says that most consumers still care about the cost of filling up their cars at the gas pump. Big engines are fun and all but making them less regulated doesn’t make them more affordable to own.
rockomeyers@reddit
This will make small pick up trucks cheaper. Now, an s10 sized truck would face stiff penalties unless it did 50mpg. The new laws require mpg to increase significantly as the wheelbase gets smaller. This is why the big three stopped making trucks that size. There would be no profit.
Those cafe laws actually did the exact opposite of what the originators thought it would do. They were too agressive.
Prices are driven by demand. The manufacturers will build what they can sell at a profit.
Federal incentives are not sustainable. Those "incentives" are really forced spending of your money if you use it. If you didnt use it, you got robbed. Like if you went out to eat with friends, split the bill evenly though you didnt eat anything.
thedeadliestmau5@reddit
Manufacturers directly increased the price of their EV’s immediately after incentives were given by the way
natesully33@reddit
It won't, but it sure looks like an easy solution to the problem of car costs going up, and the "problem" of electrification. Offering easy (non-)solutions to complex problems that appeal to people looking for that sort of thing is going to be the MO for this administration.
Assuming they actually do it, the domestic market will still be full of $80k trucks because automakers like profit. Electrification won't stop because that's where the global market is going. Rivian, Lucid and other small US BEV makers will take a big hit which... removes jobs. I'm not sure cars will even get dirtier or less efficient since design cycles are long and the next admin can just change the rules again, and even if they fight CA emissions states it'll be a prolonged battle I bet.
watduhdamhell@reddit
To play The devil's advocate here, I think the common talking point is that they would chase volume. That is, they are incentivized to pass that savings on to the consumer almost immediately because that means they can sell more vehicles, typically, and they usually make their money on volume, not margin.
How true that is historically I don't know. I'm just playing The devil's advocate!
Arnas_Z@reddit
This would benefit people by discouraging EV sales, therefore creating a better market for pure-ICE/hybrid. I'm all for it.
ResEng68@reddit
There really isn't a way for automakers to pocket potential savings from an industry-wide shift in costs.
Despite some short-term cyclical swings (E.g., covid scarcity), auto manufacture is generally viewed as quite competitive marketplace with strong consumer pricing power. The best automakers eke-out 10% net profit margin across cycles. Many fight to get to 5% across cycles.
If it costs $5k less to sell a truck, you can bet there will be half a dozen companies who would be happy to sell it for $5k less... because if they don't, the others will happily take their customer.
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
It’s free market, isn’t it ? Let customers deciding what they want. /s
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dirty_cuban@reddit
Well it benefits massive multi billion dollar corporations and their obscenely wealthy shareholders. This benefit then trickles down to ordinary Americans. That’s how it has worked for the past 40 years and American voters keep voting for it then we must conclude it has been successful.
MasterChief813@reddit
I mean who really needs clean air and decent file economy?
Bluecolt@reddit
Clean air is a good concern, but I can't help but correlate how unreliable modern engines have gotten with increasingly stringent fuel economy. I'm all about a cleaner environment, but when any gas savings I see are eaten up and surpassed by repair costs, and overall initial vehicle costs for those technologies, our net expense has actually gone up. I'm not saying some tradeoff shouldn't happen to keep our air clean, but just that the overall picture should be taken into consideration.
From a financial POV, less reliable high-strung turbo 4s and whatnot seem to cost more in the long run despite saving some fuel. One repair basic negates a lot of costs saving on fuel. From an environmental POV, there's a carbon cost for all the parts, repairs, engine replacements, etc. that need to be factored in for these higher MPG yet lower reliability cars. For example, Toyota going to smaller turbo motors to comply with clean air that are being recalled for engine replacements by the 100's of thousands creates a lot of additional greenhouse gasses. Smelting aluminum for replacement engine blocks and shipped them all around the world creates C02. I don't think it's arguable that an existing, older, low MPG vehicle kept on the road creates less C02 than manufacturing a new higher MPG car.
I was thinking about this recently, and I think a regulation that grants carbon offset credits to manufacturers for building more reliable vehicles should be added to the environmental regulations. As in, instead of just focusing on what comes out of the tail pipe, also consider how much C02 is produced to constantly repair/replace vehicles. Give manufacturers carbon credits if they can produce reliable vehicles that use less resources to keep on the road. It'd be win-win by reducing overall C02 while giving incentive for manufacturing to design and build reliable cars for people.
SirLoremIpsum@reddit
I doubt this will materially change anything.
Any new vehicle that is going to be debuting within the next 4 years will have already been designed, planned for existing regulations.
And I highly doubt any manufacturer will start commissioning new large displacement V8s in the hope that the next Administration will continue the policies.
California will continue being strict, and US manufacturers will stick in line with that.
A single presidential term is not long enough to meaningful change this kind of thing.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
I do think we might see big engines shoved into things for the US market ala Hemi in the Charger, maybe more V8 F-150s etc
Drzhivago138@reddit
Probably not. The 2.7 and 3.5 V6s have become the most popular engine options even absent any strict MPG targets simply from their better power delivery.
Thomas_633_Mk2@reddit
I could see them putting a V8 back in the regular Raptor at least: that's the kind of vehicle where MUH V8 applies most heavily.
TeriusRose@reddit
I don't disagree, but 4 years is still long enough to dismantle or at least drastically weaken the EPA with the house, senate and courts at your side. And It's hard to say what exactly happens at that point or how long it will take to fix that.
argent_pixel@reddit
The house could (and probably will) flip back in 2 years. Possibly earlier if a few people die or some of the incoming admin accidentally taps one too many rapists to join the cabinet.
I don't see car companies flipping their plans over stuff that won't survive a car development life cycle. The pullback to hybrids is pretty much as big of a change as we'll see I think.
Ferrarisimo@reddit
This guy understands product roadmap planning and the immense lead time and R&D investment required to do so. A change in policy that may only last four years isn’t going to impact plans that the industry has had in motion for over a decade.
TheseClick@reddit
Some CARB rules are stupid like for intercoolers.
Alec_NonServiam@reddit
I just want to be able to modify/build cars and as long as they pass the sniffer specs at inspection I should be left alone.
God forbid someone puts a K20 in a Miata. Illegal here.
Cost_Additional@reddit
Long live the V8
SwiftCEO@reddit
I highly doubt most automakers will drop their EV and hybrid development. Companies move slow and there’s always the risk of the next administration reimplementing the same regulations.
Recoil42@reddit
The big deal for most OEMs (GM, Toyota, and Volkswagen in particular) is that China isn't moving backwards, and is the largest car market in the world. Basically, China's going to drag the rest of the world forward, even if the US and EU governments keep lagging behind.
Koil_ting@reddit
Maybe they should drag themselves forward first in more important departments.
Aurailious@reddit
Yup. No matter what happens now the future is EV. The US auto manufacturers only choice is how quickly they invest and switch. Without investment or assistance they will only fall farther behind.
BIG-SAGGY-TITS@reddit
That’s a very bold statement considering the current adoption rate of EVs.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Global sales have gone from 2.5% to 20% in the last five years and you think that's a bold statement?
BIG-SAGGY-TITS@reddit
Obviously I do since that’s what I said.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Well the numbers are pretty clear, if you're paying any attention.
BIG-SAGGY-TITS@reddit
Largest automotive manufacturer in the world hasn’t gone all in on it and thinks that EV will never fully replace ICE. I’m gonna go with what they have to say vs some dude on the internet who is “paying attention”.
Ancient_Persimmon@reddit
Their 8 straight months of declining sales has absolutely nothing to do with their lack of EVs...
BIG-SAGGY-TITS@reddit
I agree. I think it’s mainly due to the recall issues they have been having the past couple of years.
mishap1@reddit
Rest of the world is still moving forward. Us getting a short reprieve doesn't mean Europe and China don't continue to push forward on EVs.
Jim777PS3@reddit
And they know this rule is at most 4 years long. And California's ICE ban remains on the table.
3gendersfordchevyram@reddit
This is a great comment
WojtekoftheMidwest@reddit
I don't like the government, but I don't like families of four in 11000 lb SUVs either.
bubzki2@reddit
That’s … how we got here
WojtekoftheMidwest@reddit
Didn't get better when we subsidized excess. We personally have a Blazer EV because the government made it cheaper than a fucking corolla hybrid.
mtd14@reddit
Damn how did you find a Blazer EV for $24k?
BigFootEnergy@reddit
By lying
WojtekoftheMidwest@reddit
It's called an employee lease. The Blazer EV RS was an effective $4800 single payment for 30k miles 24 months.
BigFootEnergy@reddit
So the govt didn’t get you the deal, being an employee did.
TheRealPizza@reddit
I believe it if it’s a lease
Br0boc0p@reddit
How is renting a car cheaper than buying one?
TheRealPizza@reddit
Well, to OPs original claim - Leasing a Blazer EV is a lot cheaper than leasing a Corolla, if only because of inventives etc offered by Chevy. Obviously, a Corolla is going to be cheaper to buy outright or finance and definitely is the better choice to make financially but there are definitely situations where leasing can make more financial sense. For what it’s worth, it is not the same as renting.
Br0boc0p@reddit
🙇♂️ touche teacher.
Dark_Knight2000@reddit
Honestly I cannot see a way for leasing as a standard to be either environmentally sustainable or economically viable. It incentivizes cheap planned obsolescence cars, and puts ownership in businesses hands rather than people’s.
The only people it benefits are the people handing out the leases.
WojtekoftheMidwest@reddit
Employee lease + taking advantage of every subsidy for a final price of $4800 single payment 24 months. You guys have access to LEASEHAKR and still assume im lying?
Cars-and-Coffee@reddit
It could be a lease deal. I saw a leasehackr post of $250/mo and $0 down. That could be cheaper than the corolla hybrid.
thememeconnoisseurig@reddit
It's because the EPA regs require SUVs and trucks to be bigger and bigger. The regulations are looser the heavier a vehicle is.
MathematicianShot445@reddit
So the government manipulated the market? I'm glad you got a cheap EV, but I don't want to sign up for the EV infrastructure when I don't have charging in my home. I'll buy a "more expensive" Japanese hybrid (because you got tax breaks due to government market manipulation) over that, at least for 10 years until the EV infrastructure improves.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Which ones are those again?
goharinthepaint@reddit
The imaginary ones
Quatro_Leches@reddit
or literally people commuting by themselves in SUVs either. 90% of cars I see now in the city while going to work are suvs with one person inside
-SUBW00FER-@reddit
What difference does it make if people drive CR-Vs? The Accord gets a whole 1mpg better than the comparable crossover that is the CR-V.
I personally don’t like crossovers. But they aren’t that different fuel efficiency wise vs a sedan.
Sure full on SUVs that usually are lucky to break 20mpg, but crossovers are rarely the issue. Especially with wide roads and huge parking spaces we have in the States.
Quatro_Leches@reddit
the reason for that is simple. because companies really stopped doing much R&D for non suvs. aero alone gets you more than 1 mpg difference between the two, now the weight. wheels, etc.
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lee1026@reddit
CRV holds more stuff than the accord.
Quatro_Leches@reddit
nobody is hauling stuff with their suvs full time to make that difference matter. nobody has stuff in their sedans often either.
Duct_tape_bandit@reddit
I used my 7700lbs tow rating for over 5k miles this year, filling the back with tools most of the time
Many other instances of me hauling large parts, engines, transmissions
WingerRules@reddit
I move people sized speakers with my Escape/CRV frequently.
mach1alfa@reddit
Nobody buys for just the capabilities they need, they buy for the “worst case scenario” that they might encounter. Can you imagine how absurd your argument is when you apply it to performance cars?
Rain_In_Your_Heart@reddit
Noone ever thought "hmm, I'll need an SUV in case I might have stuff to haul someday" before the 2010s. It is an entirely manufactured social phenomenon by billions of dollars of advertising. If people actually cared about having to haul stuff they'd have bought wagons, not lifted hatchbacks.
xqk13@reddit
And that worst case scenario is often exaggerated. The difference is that the US being a first world country means people can actually afford what they don’t actually need, while is many other places people only get what they truly need
RedditWhileIWerk@reddit
Hard to drive a sedan when automakers won't sell them.
I like my Ford Fusion and might have considered buying another at some point, but Ford killed the model.
MechMeister@reddit
Lol, a gas CRV gets over 30mpg and the hybrid over 40mpg. You just chose the wrong vehicle to cherry pick lololol
CampFine3533@reddit
CAFE standards are how we got here causing model bloat and encouraging car companies to make and sell SUVs over sedans. It’s the governments fault.
Carl-99999@reddit
CAFE standards actually inadvertently caused that kinda. Nothing is that heavy (the hummer EV is up there though)
dinkygoat@reddit
Hummer EV, for all its faults and size, basically gets 53 mpge. For something the size of a small house to have Prius-tier MPG-equivalent is pretty damn impressive.
KMKtwo-four@reddit
loopholes that special interests like truck makers fought for is how we got here.
RepresentativeOk2433@reddit
That's the government's fault though.
Fuel efficiency standards for trucks are based on their wheelbase. The law says they have to keep making them more efficient, but it's easier just to make them bigger so they can reach for the lower standards.
Plenty of people would love to have small, easy to handle trucks. There's a reason people are restoring 90s S10s and Ford Rangers and it isn't because they were luxury vehicles.
bishopredline@reddit
And hopefully preempt any stupid laws that the assholes in California pass. Seriously if your from California why do you elect those people
Upstairs_Shelter_427@reddit
It’s none of your business what we do in California.
BIG-SAGGY-TITS@reddit
Fuck yeah. Bring back the V8s baby!!!!!
tablecontrol@reddit
this will not happen apart from a few halo cars. manufacturers know the future is hybrid / EV and they aren't going to spend a ton of money in R&D for a new V8
BIG-SAGGY-TITS@reddit
Ok
accordinglyryan@reddit
Based. The EPA is ruining cars.
F1_Geek@reddit
+1
They need to stop going after small cars. There's no reason why there shouldn't be affordable small cars again.
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
And saving the environment. It's almost like they're some sort of protection agency for the environment and not a car club. Weird.
Bizzzle80@reddit
More crossovers plz
TheArchonians@reddit
I just want k-trucks to be federally legal. None of that "not safe for the roads" bs
SeahawksClippersBro@reddit
redditors in disbelief that people live outside their echochamber again. i hope we can get crx and flip up headlights again.
Drzhivago138@reddit
Flip up headlights were never banned. They only went away because our outdated headlight laws were finally updated with ROW.
Reaper064@reddit
Good
mulletstation@reddit
Yeah totally, in fact, we should mandate LOWER fuel efficiency
15 MPG or less is American
Carl-99999@reddit
7MPG 5 SEAT SEDAN 🦅🦅🦅🦅🦅🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Drzhivago138@reddit
AN AMERICAN TRADITION
8.2 MPG
tatsumakisenpuukyaku@reddit
17.76MPG
erix84@reddit
7.0L with 180hp and 300lb/ft, Murica
Comment_if_dead_meme@reddit
Based
angrycanuck@reddit
Good, should give American companies more years to move manufacturing to Mexico to squeeze the last bit of money from [incoming administration] voters.
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Hustletron@reddit
If he wants to encourage badassery maybe he should just remove speed limits on some of the highways (like the autobahn spurs performance in Germany).
Lordofwar13799731@reddit
We're way to fucking stupid and dickish here for that to work. So many fucking people would die in the first week of that happening lol.
terqui@reddit
Remember who obamas admin instituted the 35mpg fleet requirement by 2025?
Were a month and a half from 2025. Take a wild guess at how that one worked out....
These are feel good laws to appease the constituency. Theyre never meant to be followed through until the end.
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
392 Wrangler Unlimited Final Final Edition THENEXT100YEARS
ggskater@reddit
I want a Wrangler 392 so bad...
C-C-X-V-I@reddit
I'd be all over it if it wasn't sedan only.
8rings_86k@reddit
Don’t forget the “last V8” SRT individual package
DudeWhereIsMyDuduk@reddit
Infinite supply of zero-mile takeoff 315/70/17s for everyone going to 37s...
Briggs281707@reddit
Let's hope they also remove a lot of power from the EPA
RepresentativeOk2433@reddit
Does this mean we can start having small trucks again?
Own-Neighborhood6828@reddit
Yessss bring back the v8s . Fuck the epa
stupidfock@reddit
In the thread: people think cars are a main contributor of climate change. It’s such a small percentage of emissions it should be almost last on the list of stuff that needs fixed in the last decade
TheDirtDude117@reddit
The fuel efficient standards are absolute bulls**t! None of what they have done post 2012 has a positive effect on the environment. All manufacturers do is make larger vehicles to get lower standards.
If anything, it should be inversed. Vehicles that ARE NOT COMMERCIAL should have a stricter standard the larger they are. Smaller cars are more efficient, cause less wear on tires that shred micro plastics into the air, and have less maintenance costs and consumables.
Kei vehicles really should be a special class for the US but under 2L and a certain weight+size. We shouldn't have to kill off a vehicle like the GK Fit for fuel economy standards but be able to make a Dodge TRX...
We should have tax incentives for Civics, Camrys, Prius', and Mavericks NOT the 5 ton Hummer EV that can do 0-60 thru your house in 4 seconds.
niftyjack@reddit
The smartest way to do this would be to have a second set of standards that happens to match the rest of world standards for global A segment cars, which top out at 3.7 meters/150 inches long—Mitsubishi Mirages, Chevy Sparks, that kind of thing. Toyota’s Malaysian partners make a great car in that size that’s $8000 and meets NCAP safety standards, we should be able to buy those.
TheDirtDude117@reddit
Agreed. I didn't look into the size/weight standards but a displacement, price cap, size, and weight limit would be great! I do think we would need it bigger to work under 169 inches long and 69 inches wide would be my measurements.
That would keep the GK Fit, Prius C, and the above cars as well. Could even see some sportier vehicles in this segment like the ND Miata. I would love the S660 Honda successor to be part of it too
cBrownFTW@reddit
But a tunnel through my house would be so neat………
TheDirtDude117@reddit
It would but the HOA banned that one lady making one under her house IRL
MrPterodactyl@reddit
Why do some people on this sub conflate slowing down the pace of or making adjustments to regulations with getting rid of regulations entirely?
MrPterodactyl@reddit
Does this mean cheap manuals won't have rev hang now?
6353JuanTaboBlvdApt6@reddit
LETS GOO. It’s a WIN
xstanloona@reddit
People here say they want cleaner air, yet they drive around in their Suburbans and F-150s. People here say they want to reduce their CO2 output, yet they bemoan the idea of a hybrid Supra/Lexus RC. People here want to reduce smog but gasp at the idea of an electric Dodge Charger. I just don't get it here sometimes.
yaxgto@reddit
But it'll be cheaper supposedly
King_in_a_castle_84@reddit
Is it going to make cars more affordable?
balirious@reddit
Yeah boiii
CompanyHead689@reddit
Great news. I'm sure this is one of the reasons why people voted for the guy.
proscriptus@reddit
RFK Jr is concerned we're not getting our RDA of lead.
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ZaheerAlGhul@reddit
Ice will probably live a little longer, but I doubt we get big V8s back. New cars have already been designed with previous emissions in mind. Wont matter anyways when a lot of wouldn't be able to afford the cars anyways.
DocPhilMcGraw@reddit
This scene played out last time. California and 17 other states are already a part of the ACCI emission standard. Their authority to regulate emissions has been tested in court and California won.
The federal government can repeal whatever regulation they want, but automakers aren’t going to just make radically different cars for two parts of the same country. All this might do is allow some older engines to live on longer to save costs, but it won’t necessarily mean that there will be huge investments into V8 engines all of a sudden.
redstern@reddit
Doesn't matter. The market still speaks, and people don't want new vehicles that are less fuel efficient than previous years.
The people that don't care about that and want their old huge gas guzzling V8s are already driving them, and will regardless of what the government says.
OceanGate_Titan@reddit
Huge win for ICE fans
Agree-With-Above@reddit
There's no difference, because California standards are still there
gumol@reddit
they might get revoked. California doesn't have an inherent right to set the standards, they can only set them because federal government allowed them to do so.
Upstairs_Shelter_427@reddit
We can do wherever the fuck we want in our own state borders.
If GOP wants to play the “states rights” argument - so will we.
peaseabee@reddit
States rights is used by either party depending on whose ox is being gored.
gumol@reddit
Federal government disagrees, and I think the US already had a civil war about it.
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Agree-With-Above@reddit
There was a lawsuit from a few years back, but it led to no changes. OEMs design, engineer and calibrate to the strictest standard.
gumol@reddit
Yeah, but the courts are different than a couple years ago. If it makes to SCOTUS, I don't think it's going to go California's way.
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porterbrown@reddit
Just keep the 3.6 in the next gen Wrangler. No turbo. Pls.
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fobbyk@reddit
As time goes on, conversion to ev is inevitable. So this only helps the American ICE companies momentarily.
Dirtyace@reddit
CT5v blackwing is next on the menu for sure…..
V8-Turbo-Hybrid@reddit
Even it would roll back, I don’t think it would change current new car market, honestly. I don’t think new cars would go cheaper and affordable, most people would still be unable to afford new cars.
Trades46@reddit
So every other continent would continue to move towards EVs except for the USA because V8s. Got it.
Whatcanyado420@reddit
I personally love smog.
Carl-99999@reddit
The only benefit of Mr orange. Maybe. Perhaps. If the economy survives.
Juicyjackson@reddit (OP)
The incoming administration plans to weaken standards on fuel-efficiency requirements and tailpipe emissions finalized earlier this year by the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the Environmental Protection Agency, according to the sources.