ULPT Request: How do I keep this second couch I was accidentally delivered?

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sunshineandsarcasm@reddit

If you received a product that you never ordered, you have the right to keep it as a gift, according to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The seller can’t demand that you pay for the product.

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GoodGoodGoody@reddit

ULPT misunderstands that FTC rule more than sovereign citizens misunderstand licence plates.

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e-s-p@reddit

A company can't send you magazines you didn't ask for and then tell you that you're on the hook for the subscription.

They can't send you something you didn't ask for and then say you have to pay.

If you receive someone else's package or too many items, you're obligated to tell the sending company and tell them to pick it up.

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Also you are just wrong “You also don’t need to return unordered merchandise. You’re legally entitled to keep it as a free gift.“ if the order is someone elses, yes you cannot keep it but if your name is on the package even under the FTC law you can keep it…

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e-s-p@reddit

The merchandise was ordered. I mean go HAM but that's not the way it works.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

Nope the original couch was ordered. The second one, was not. Thats exactly how it works lmao

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e-s-p@reddit

Do what you do. I'm not a lawyer and I'm assuming you're not either.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

Paralegal and in law school lol. The writing is very clear on this

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peepot556@reddit

I’m a lawyer and I disagree with you.

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e-s-p@reddit

Then why am I seeing plenty of actual lawyers saying that if you know the goods are mistakenly delivered, you might need to return them?

If you're a paralegal in law school then I'm a judge.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

Please show me one of these ‘actual lawyers’ 2. Rules on returning is dependent on country laws 3. Just because you dont work in the legal field doesnt mean others dont. Do you want to see my paystub?

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e-s-p@reddit

Yes, please show me. And your proof of enrollment in a law school.

Unsolicited goods and mistakenly delivered goods aren't the same thing.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

LMAO. They absolutely are the same thing sweetheart. Show me an ‘actual lawyers’ interpretation of this ftc regulation. Please go ahead and

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e-s-p@reddit

Oh honey, where is you paystub?

You're gonna be a shit lawyer if you think mistaken delivery is the same as unsolicited.

You can take a look at the legal advice sub. It's been covered there.

US v Helms no. 96-1167 Crim. app. No. 31250. You need to make available, at no cost to you, mistakenly delivered items.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

You linked a military court case 💀 youre fucking hilarious

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Actual_Doughnut9248@reddit

Military court cases are often used as persuasive authority in civilian cases in American jurisprudence. They may not be binding precedent as an Article III court but their reasoning may absolutely influence civilian legal interpretation.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

Im not doxxing myself to some idiot on reddit because they cant fathom there are paralegals in the world 😂 go ahead and link it then champ. Ftc is explicitly clear on this.

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Actual_Doughnut9248@reddit

You offered to show the paystub. Sounds to me like you’re willing to say anything to prove a point, regardless of the facts or situation. Credibility = lowered.

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ragingasianror@reddit

They aren’t denying there are paralegals…they just don’t believe you. Lol reading comprehension and all that, right?

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

Do you want to see my paystub?

You were the person to bring it up.

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e-s-p@reddit

Them why did you offer?

I gave you the case that explicitly said knowingly keeping mistakenly delivered goods is larceny. Be a good "law student" and read the judgement.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

It was rhetorical and anyone with a brain couldve understood that. And you linked a military court case for a military officer who follows different laws then civilians and has no bearing on this lmao

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-e-s-p@reddit

You can seriously just look at any of the strictly moderated legal subs and see that you're absolutely fucking wrong. Unsolicited and mistakenly delivered are nowhere near the same thing.

Also replying to someone and blocking them is lame as fuck. Good luck in "law school" kiddo.

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Actual_Doughnut9248@reddit

Actual attorney here.

It depends on whether a company is trying to “sell” the delivered product/goods/services. If is not being offered “for sale” to the person it was sent to, it likely falls outside the requirement of this FTC rule (it is not a law, it’s an agency issued administrative rule).

While I’m not offering advice on OP’s specific circumstance, it’s unlikely that this rule would apply in a situation of a mistaken delivery, where the business is attempting to recover a product that they have no intention of selling or offering to the deliveree. The key phrasing is right there in the rule, “offer for sale goods…”.

If a company simply wants their merchandise back, and made no offer for sale for their mistakenly delivered goods, the rule does not apply.

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

I'm going to believe you're lying until you show those "million different articles breaking it down."

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

I'm going to believe you're lying until you show those "million different articles breaking it down."

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

You became a judge without being a lawyer? I'm not sure I believe you.

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EtTuBruteVT@reddit

That FTC page makes the law (39 USC 3009) sound a little more clear cut that it is. The law probably only applies where OP has not solicited any order with the company or when the company uses a deceptive business practice (i.e. by repeatedly doing this).

There have been no court cases or FTC enforcement actions that I can find that do not involve a company repeatedly doing something like "padding" the quantity, swapping to more expensive brands and charging more than was agreed upon, getting people to sign up for confusing subscription probrams, or refusing to cancel an order (in a reasonable time frame from placo g the order). The history behind the law also seems supports this interpretation (you can read up on the kind of scams in the 60s that this law was written in response to, some were really shady).

So while the courts have not explicitly ruled that a single honest mistake duplicate shipment violates this law, my opinion is that one would not be able to successfully argue this law to keep a single honest mistake duplicate shipment without payment.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

“If any person, firm, partnership, association or corporation, or any agent or employee thereof, shall in any manner or by any means offer for sale goods, wares or merchandise when the offer includes the voluntary and unsolicited sending of any goods, wares or merchandise not actually ordered or requested by the recipient, either orally or in writing, then the sender of any such unsolicited goods, wares or merchandise shall for all purposes be deemed to have made an unconditional gift to the recipient thereof, who may use or dispose of such goods, wares or merchandise in any manner he deems proper without any obligation to return the same to the sender or to pay him therefor.”

I mean Virginia law is pretty clear on this and the fact that the INVOICE had two couches on it means he does not need to return it.

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e-s-p@reddit

Your reading of this is very different than mine. Voluntary and unsolicited. The couch was solicited and was an error. You also can't keep you neighbors package if it was dropped off.

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HopefulTelevision707@reddit

It was unsolicited. The dude never ordered the second couch.

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EtTuBruteVT@reddit

Except the order was solicited and it was a clear error. These laws always hinge on there being no preexisting order/contract/solicitation between the parties to define "unsolicited". Here the OP solicited an order but there was a clear error in sending two couches.

Legally he must return or pay for it, but unethically he can probably make it so difficult that they let him keep it (e.g. by charing a "reasonable" storage fee, charging a pickup fee, making them lay the fees in advance, only being "available" after 10pm, etc.).

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e-s-p@reddit

Ok

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Actual_Doughnut9248@reddit

But your state treasury will still expect you to pay taxes on it

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Akshue@reddit

No, but they can demand you make it available for no-expense pickup. If it was a legitimate mistake, you technically can be sued under “Unjust Enrichment”.

This also applies if someone like Amazon misdelivers a package, the actual recipient shows up, and you refuse to hand it over.

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jalapeno442@reddit

Wow! I never knew this

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e-s-p@reddit

It doesn't work like that.

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jalapeno442@reddit

Why does it have 600 upvotes and I’m downvoted lol

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e-s-p@reddit

Because people are dumb

People are confusing mistaken delivery with unsolicited delivery. They are very different things.

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Seeayteebeans@reddit

ULPT - and then tell them you peed on it.

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jbaxter119@reddit

It's 2024, just tell them you've made love to the couch.

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LotharMoH@reddit

Sure, come get it. Will it matter if I JD Vanced it thoughh? Asking in full disclosure.

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To_WAR@reddit

Sorry dude, I Vanced your couch.

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modestmidwest@reddit

JD'd

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jbaxter119@reddit

I put in whatever felt right. Maybe a little cream-filled number

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freeparKing33@reddit

Ok good

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NoGoat912@reddit

Dirty Mike and the boys ran a soup kitchen on that thing

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bethemanwithaplan@reddit

Tell them the vice president came by and now the couch is sticky

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Theresanrrrrrr@reddit

I think it’s called jdvanced!

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MissO56@reddit

poppie?

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blaspheminCapn@reddit

Piss disk

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316cedric@reddit

Or your dog did

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jessewalker2@reddit

Why tell them? Just do it!

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pinkypowerchords@reddit

PAPI PEED ON MY SOFA

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breadmakerquaker@reddit

Piss discs!

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Paxuz01@reddit

Finally!

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breadmakerquaker@reddit

FINALLY!

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Eachares@reddit (OP)

Great to know, thank you!

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_My_Angry_Account_@reddit

Just a heads up, the law they are referencing does not apply on this instance since it was a mistake on the order and not an attempt to scam you.

The company can't make you pay to return the couch but they can bill you if you refuse to return it.

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Popular-Drummer-7989@reddit

This!

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

You can keep the couch by paying for it. Your question is answered. The unethical part is paying for something you did not order.

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zEdgarHoover@reddit

Make up your mind. Or did you omit a "not"?

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

You seem confused.

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zEdgarHoover@reddit

Indeed. Because what you wrote seems either overly clever or contradictory.

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

In what way?

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FishingReport@reddit

What couch?

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Eachares@reddit (OP)

They took a picture of the couches… do you think I can still get away with it?

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Schickie@reddit

Tell them you sent it to the FTC . They can pick it up there.

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kwh0102@reddit

Did they take pictures of you bringing it inside? If not then idk what couch, maybe it was stolen who knows

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Ok_Maintenance_27@reddit

I would go with the FTC and simply state the law and say you’ve put it outside bc no room. They really don’t have a leg to stand on. Legally, unsolicited packages are considered gifts.

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HoxhasDeadbeatDad@reddit

Just don't respond to their calls. Even better make your voicemail be that dead line tone and make your cell phone send their call directly to voicemail.

Lock your card if you really think they will try and change you. But if they charge, they have no leg to stand on. A CC chargeback is pretty easy to prove if you have the original receipt.

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Otherwise-Topic-1791@reddit

Same couch, different day. Didn't move it inside before they came back for a second photo.

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TR6lover@reddit

Just let them know they probably don't want it after Uncle Charlies unfortunate murder on the couch.

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joesephed@reddit

Maybe say your dog already peed on it?

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notie547@reddit

are they a small family owned company or a large private equity owned company? If the latter, then I would trell them you gave it good will.

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RealAdamRoth@reddit

Id send the company an invoice for storage for the retail value of the couch. Show per day cost. If unpaid after 30 days the couch will be destroyed. Couch cannot be picked up until paid.

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Eachares@reddit (OP)

This is why I love this sub lol

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limellama1@reddit

Per the FTC you're legally allowed to keep merchandise wrongfully delivered to you.

FTC page. Scroll about 3/4 the way down. Word for word it says "You also don’t need to return unordered merchandise. You’re legally entitled to keep it as a free gift."

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GooseRevolt@reddit

This is in order to stop companies from sending you stuff, and then demanding payment

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TheGreySaint@reddit

Exactly, what will the company do? Demand payment after sending a free couch?

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thebeardedman88@reddit

Or to keep a free couch?

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RyantheRaindrop@reddit

Originally the law was made for a couch but they've extended it to other things.

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melanies420@reddit

JD is that you?

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Legitimate_Risk_24-7@reddit

One is for sitting, the other is for fucking.

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melanies420@reddit

For now, but once January 1st hits no couch is safe

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DrummingNozzle@reddit

Just whatever makes sense

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KBilly1313@reddit

Guess he’s not on r/dontputyourdickinthat

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Demerlis@reddit

so is the law a living couch? or are we just following the words on the paper

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Weird_Brush2527@reddit

Legally no

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GooseRevolt@reddit

Yes you could also take advantage of it to keep a free couch, I’m just referencing the origin of the law

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grey487@reddit

I remember my business law teacher covering this one extensively. Other commenter is correct on the intent to stop businesses from sending stuff and demanding payment.

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Gildcod@reddit

This got tremendously funnier to read. I literally read your comment and grabbed some packages for my wife. LOW AND BEHOLD A PACKAGE HUNDREDS OF POUNDS. I was accidentally delivered a roll of chicken wire 6 feet x approx 100 yds

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Gildcod@reddit

Yooo WHAT!?

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Gildcod@reddit

Yooo WHAT!?

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The_F-ing_FCC@reddit

I hate when I see this. This IS NOT THE SAME SCENARIO

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IndyAndyJones777@reddit

I stopped listening when you started screaming.

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dirtymoney@reddit

When I was a kid 45 years ago. I remeber seeing PSAs on Sunday morning TV about this. It portrayed an eskimo comically getting a fan in the mail.

It seems that it used to be a scummy business practice to send people unsolicited merchandize and then demand payment or pay to send it back.

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EtTuBruteVT@reddit

The law they refer to there does not cover when you ordered from a company and the wrong item/quantity was shipped, only when you didn't place any order with that company and an unexpected item shows up.

The FTC page is unfortunately worded incredibly poorly in that regard.

Now they certainly can charge them a reasonable storage fee or pickup fee (especially if you have to take off work or something).

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mschach88@reddit

I agree sold furniture for a long time. If we overdelivered an item 10 minutes away from our own store we were screwed. If the customer was "nice" they would work with us to pick it up. However all of our threats were empty. Let's say you bought a very nice $2000 couch. Shipping it back to California costs several hundred dollars. If they get it back it's now used and worth 1/3 of that. Any threat of legal action beyond that would require a few hours from a corporate lawyer at an inflated hourly rate. So the best this company could hope to do is break even. They will only come after you on a moral principle in which they will lose money. Most companies have no morals and hate losing money. Much easier for them to write off the item. They write off a $2000 loss however they probably paid around $1200 for that loss. I would expect them to ban your from future purchases but other than that not much will happen.

Source slightly drunk former salesman not a legal expert.

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FJB444@reddit

Painting with bodily fluids.

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OkayestHuman@reddit

It is you, JD!

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noresignation@reddit

This. If it’s a big corporation, they likely know this law already. Small business owners, you might have to educate them. Either way, a written letter sent to their headquarters referencing this law, and the penalties for continuing to press you, and demanding that they stop contacting you should be sufficient.

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GoodGoodGoody@reddit

Except they presumably signed for both. Keeping the extra one is pure theft and not at all covered by that FTC rule.

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bking@reddit

Depends on what OP signed. They weren’t clear on that.

“I received two couches” fuckin’ great. Congrats.

“I paid for two couches and received two couches” possibly an issue.

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jugo5@reddit

It's yours. You giving it back would be nice but not required.

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bb12345throwaway@reddit

not just storage, also the lost wages for the day off work you'll have to take to be at home when they pick it up

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GoodGoodGoody@reddit

Meh. If they signed for the delivery of both the whole now I want to charge for unexpected storage falls through.

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mostundudelike@reddit

Please check with local towing companies to determine market rates in your area.

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Gunz1995@reddit

Exactly.

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BigBeeOhBee@reddit

Do you plan on doing business with them in the future? If yes, send it back. If no, fuck 'em.

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RunninOuttaShrimp@reddit

Ghost them and then still do business with em regardless. Assert dominance.

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asst-to-regional-mgr@reddit

Just use spouse’s name or email instead, they won’t know it’s you

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liefchief@reddit

Why respond at all?

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AzizThymos@reddit

Change number and close email address. Deny all knowledge. Enjoy free product

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MRicho@reddit

You have an invoice for two couches. The problems is in their accounting section if the dollars don't match the purchase and delivery.

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button_24@reddit

I thought you guys already came and picked it up?

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forewer21@reddit

Or something like, Pick up window is 8am to 8pm. I'll call you when it's ready for pickup.

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KunSagita@reddit

This is genius!

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hominyhominy@reddit

This exact thing happened to me! We just never answered the phone calls. Eventually they stopped calling. They really had no recourse.

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scarykicks@reddit

Just say you never received a second couch.

If you signed for it charge them for storage like another poster stated.

Or just ignore it.

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VixenTraffic@reddit

Just change your bank account. It shouldn’t be too hard. I had to do it when my car was broken into and my checkbook was stolen.

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exWiFi69@reddit

I once had FOUR tv’s delivered to my house. I didn’t even order them. I accepted the first two but felt bad about the others and declined. I wish I kept all of them. They can’t do shit. That’s on them.

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Shoddy-City8336@reddit

If you want the couch keep it. They are banking on you being "nice" and returning it.

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WarmestSeatByTheFire@reddit

Something similar happened with me with a refrigerator. I was legitimately out of town in the weeks following the mix up and by the time I returned they'd forgotten about it.

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CFOCPA@reddit

I would tell them you are only available for pickup between the hours of 10pm and midnight on Saturdays. Let them figure out how to get a delivery company to get there then.

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DarthJarJar242@reddit

Legitimately just don't respond to them. They can't force you to return it or pay for it. This is called unsolicited merchandise and they can't force you to pay for or return it. It's federal law.

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Badgraphics@reddit

Say you threw it away as you had no room for it. Unless they pay you storage fees I don't see a problem.

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spookybotanist@reddit

Ghost. If they email with a pickup time and date, make sure you're not home or don't answer the door. They'll probably give up pretty quickly.

I would recommend you wait a while before posting it somewhere to sell the extra couch if that's your intention.

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CounterfeitAIDs@reddit

This is the real ULPT

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dogedaysofsummer@reddit

What second couch?

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FJB444@reddit

When they delivered it to you it became your property. You're under no obligation to help correct their mistake. You are not an employee of the company. They accidentally delivered you product, said product is now your property.

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Fantastic-Waltz-7917@reddit

Think there's an according to Jim episode about this

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e-s-p@reddit

Keeping it might be theft under the law because you know it is misdelivered and not an unsolicited item sent to to. Be careful.

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alicat777777@reddit

You accepted delivery. If you deny them the right to pick it up, I am wondering if they will just charge your credit card.

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Ndtphoto@reddit

Tell them JD Vance stole it and they're not gonna want it back.

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PhilMeUpBaby@reddit

Put it out the front.

Dress up like a hobo homeless person. On drugs.

Get photos.

Send those photos to the company, advising them that the couch is outside awaiting pickup.

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OnlyFranks-@reddit

I once received the entire Garth Brooks collection on vinyl. No record of it in my account. I've never heard anything about it. This was 7 years ago.

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Red_Velvet_1978@reddit

I'm kinda jealous

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ilbub@reddit

“Oh no, I’m so sorry to tell you that we’ve been trying to deal with a bedbug infestation. Not sure if it came from my recent order with you, but I don’t want to spread anything to your warehouse, so I’ve had to trash it.”

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ButterscotchButtons@reddit

I once ordered a bedroom set from West Elm. Called right after placing the order because I changed my mind about the dresser and the night stands. Bed shows up, and the dresser and night stands were there with it -- cancellation must not have gone through on the fulfillment side, even though I got my refund.

They called and emailed saying they realized their mistake and needed to arrange a time to pick up the three items I didn't pay for, so I just ignored them.

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zomgitsduke@reddit

"I'm leaving it outside come get it before trash day."

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FirebirdWriter@reddit

I did this with a bed. Not to keep one but because the company no showed three times. So I gave them a deadline and put the thing out. It was gone by the time someone turned up 3 weeks later and the driver went "Oh. You were serious?" "Yeah. I'm not sure what part of "I need to access my kitchen and it's blocking my wheelchair access" wasn't serious. You all can eat the cost of fucking with my access."

0 issues since. I am sure the decision makers who decided to NOT tell me they had cancelled pick up in the office are unhappy but... It does happen. Be really annoyed OP it sells it

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6hooks@reddit

I left it outside because I didn't have room for it. Someone must have taken it

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Maddog504@reddit

This is the best choice OP

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pinkypowerchords@reddit

Boom

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Lapetitepoissons@reddit

You don't need an ULPT, anything specifically delivered to you that you didn't order is legally yours

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melonheadorion1@reddit

what couch?

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Smooth_Maize_9511@reddit

Find a way to casually mention how you were just so tempted to keep it after having to throw out all your old furniture, due to those bed bugs that just keep coming back.

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deftoner42@reddit

"What couch?"

"Yeah, it was delivered."

"2? No, just 1."

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WingmanZer0@reddit

Just ignore them. I don't think they have any recourse and probably won't push the issue very much. Obviously change tact if they threaten to sue you or something like that.

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delicate-duck@reddit

If you weren’t home when they delivered, just say someone must’ve stolen one. Unless it’s not one of those couches you have to assemble yourself and it comes in a box

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Wiizze@reddit

Just keep it and ignore them, they can’t charge you or make you return it

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jdools33@reddit

Don’t reply but also report your credit card as stolen (the one you purchased it with) so they can’t charge you for their mistake. Your new credit card will arrive soon after you report missing with a new number.

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antilumin@reddit

Last year we bought a powered recliner couch with a center console that usb ports and stuff. White glove installers bring it in and set it up… only to be confused. Turns out while the recliners had the right power plugs, the center console was a completely different style and not useable.

Called the company and they said they could replace it but it would take weeks… or we could just keep it for free.

Free couch!

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