$1500 Dell Precision, 2¢ of Thermal Paste
Posted by Titan_91@reddit | sysadmin | View on Reddit | 50 comments
https://imgur.com/a/X9qdGzv
This insane cost-cutting on Dell laptops, even high end ones, never ends. One of our clients was has a 2 year old Precision 5560, Core i7-11850 with Nvidia T1200 discrete graphics. The laptop was constantly throlokg at 100 degrees sitting at a blank desktop. The thermal paste, or lack thereof, on the CPU and GPU dies was abysmally low quality. It was completely crusted out, looked like 10 year old paste.
I cleaned this stuff off and put on proper Arctic brand paste. Now it idles at 40 degrees, and runs below 90 most of the time when doing intensive tasks.
Draptor@reddit
Bear in mind that different thermal pastes are good for different things. A laptop, for instance, might use a "thicker" paste to mitigate thermal pumping over time. Or they might use a paste that doesn't perform as well as higher end stuff, but has a longer useful lifetime since end users aren't generally going to be the sort who changes their paste every X years and they don't want to deal with warranty claims.
Crusty doesn't necessarily mean bad.
nuttertools@reddit
Crusty automatically means bad. Thick doesn’t but dry does and that paste is mostly dried out.
High performance paste is usually not a good idea for business but a pad would be better than dried out paste.
zeetree137@reddit
Shin-etsu microsi silicone compound.
It's all they use on every machine. It does dry out and lose performance but it's cheap, nonconductive, direct die safe and lasts through the longest warranty they offer
DividedContinuity@reddit
If it's overheating, repaste it. It's a pretty simple rule.
Tymanthius@reddit
How often have you run into this?
I mean, if you make 10k of something, a few of them will have issues.
In addition, what's your environment? That has an effect.
nuttertools@reddit
In the last decade every Dell laptop I’ve opened looks like this within 2 years of purchase. The pads are pretty useless by then as well. Can definitely confirm this isn’t a luck of the draw or single line issue. Light duty in a clean air conditioned office or power user on the floor of a production facility, same story.
woodburyman@reddit
Van confirm their paste is garbage. We have many Precision 5xxx and 7xxx laptops for CAD users. We have to redo thermal by year two pretty much due to heat issues. We'll use quality paste that will last the rest of the lifetime of the laptop. Very heavy users well replace before we even issue the system and they'll be fine for lifetime. These are users with fad software open every day all day.
deltashmelta@reddit
By chance, TIMs are being used for replacement? Something OEM from someone like 3M?
Stonewalled9999@reddit
I am not OP but I've seen this on around 30 of a few thousand machines. To me that is statistically significant relative the the amount of money we spend on these!
Titan_91@reddit (OP)
I've seen it on a batch of Latitude laptops as well. Executives travel with them, mainly. I did some searching and others seem to have the same experience.
PubstarHero@reddit
Arctic is the OG good stuff.
If you want the new good stuff, get Thermal Grizzly.
Its around the same price, gets you a few C lower though. I bought a 10g tube awhile back for like $15-20.
gamebrigada@reddit
Arctic and Arctic Silver are not associated brands, and Arctic certainly is NOT the OG. Arctic Silver is. I don't know if Arctic is purposefully trying to capitalize on peoples association, but they are certainly benefiting from it.
Thermal Grizzly is generally oriented for overclocking users. Make good stuff, but its pricey.
My goto for business is Noctua NT-H1. Cheap, good performance, still gooeye after years in use, and they sell a fat tube on amazon for 15$.
techw1z@reddit
While your first statement is correct, your first paragraph isn't. Arctic is as much OG as Arctic Silver, both have been around for more than a decade. Arctic was much more common in EU while Arctic Silve was more common in US. Both have a long history of great performance but Arctic Silver is not safe to put directly on die because of electrical capacity, so most people should not use it, especially not in laptops.
Artic MX4 is great stuff and very similar to Noctua NT-H1
gamebrigada@reddit
Arctic Cooling released MX-1 in about 2007 from google history, they later renamed themselves to Arctic. Arctic Silver was founded to produce and sell thermal paste in 1999, and have never done anything outside of thermal pastes.
Your comment on direct die application is ridiculous, Arctic silver is not recommended for direct die, but its not because of its electrical properties. Most TIM's aren't recommended for direct die because the gap is very small, the surfaces are far flatter, and you're likely to pump them out. Liquid Metal is the preferred solution for direct die....
techw1z@reddit
Do you have a source for the claim that Arctic doesn't manufacture their own pastes?
Also, your second paragraph is completely incorrect. Arctic Silver has a rather high electrical capacity compared to most others TIMs, so if it gets on any contacts, especially small capacitors, it will screw up timings. Arctic MX-4 does not have that problem, you can drown your whole mainboard and CPU in Arctic MX-4 and it will still run.
gamebrigada@reddit
Well for one they list their Hong Kong subsidiary as the supplier, not the manufacturer. https://support.arctic.de/products/mx-4/techdocs/MSDS_MX-4_231001_Rev3_EN.pdf
Completely incorrect how? Just because you're terrible and overuse paste doesn't mean that everyone else does.
techw1z@reddit
So you have no evidence that they don't produce their own product and just made that up? Thanks for admitting that.
Completely incorrect in that most TIMs have practically zero electrical capacity and this can present a huge problem. Pretty much every source correctly warns about this danger while you act like it doesn't exist. So thanks for showing you are not qualified to discuss this.
I'm done discussing with you now because you are obviously just a troll who doesn't know what he is talking about and just googles for 1 minute to get a half-assed answer with half assed references.
ThorThimbleOfGorbash@reddit
This is weak, but if I can't buy a Dell business laptop with at least a 3 year ProSupport Plus warranty, I know I'm taking a gamble long term.
I_T_Gamer@reddit
This has been an issue for a LONG time. Intel has been accused of this, AMD less so? Unsure about the AMD comment. This is why delidding became a thing.
TheShitmaker@reddit
Running a bunch of higher end latitude models. Every batch has had one or two defective webcams and we had 3 latitudes literally go up in smoke in the last year. One went up in smoke no more than 1 hour from giving it to the user.
skorpiolt@reddit
This isn’t anything new exactly. I used to work in a repair shop 10 years ago, opened up countless laptops of various brands, this was the norm. I doubt that was the entirety of the issue here, but no doubt replacing the paste helped to some degree.
TerrorToadx@reddit
There is nothing wrong with the amount of paste here. Is the paste old and bad quality? Probably.
adrabo_CLE@reddit
I have this very problem with the “covid” generation of Dell Latitude 7310, 7320, 7330, 7340. We’re reworking every one, having users come into the office for a fixit clinic. Dell used some janky silicon based thermal compound then that turns rock hard over time.
struddles75@reddit
That looks like plenty of paste.
deltashmelta@reddit
Most pastes run the risk of eventual pump out in laptops, and some have general longevity problems.
Artic silver has the longevity at the risk of pumpout, where artic MX (different company) has neither.
IC Diamond used to be good for longevity, and resist pump, but it's not being made anymore.
Right now, I just use Honeywell PTM 7950, which has both performance, longevity, and pumpout resistance.
BothArmsBruised@reddit
Tell me you follow LMG without saying you follow LMG. The application here looks fine. Unless they used apple sauce. For an average use this looks fine. Replacing every machine that comes in with PTM is unnecessary and a great way to bill hours if you can. If you're buying an enterprise laptop/machine that needs any altercations after it arrives, your being scammed or you're a shit sys ad. Or your limited by your procurement and they're shit at listing to the company.
deltashmelta@reddit
"on latitude-class stuff that fails"
BothArmsBruised@reddit
You have an enterprise grade machine that your company purchased. Why are you trying to fix it? If it fails your SLA/warranty should include replacement or repair.
deltashmelta@reddit
Sometimes it's more efficient for a local field tech to have a 30 min turn around, than a swap and mailout, as many have large amounts of custom apps and data on engineer-class machines. From factory issues are warrantied, but dells thermal pastes generally give high package temperatures and don't age gracefully.
It seems, perhaps, you may know more about our use cases, scale, lifecycle, and time/dollar efficiency curves than even we do.
Zackey_TNT@reddit
I really dont think the precision series should be used at all. 10k for a mid range desktop. Just never worthwhile. Custom build 5 of them for the same price, if one fails... you have 4..
deltashmelta@reddit
It's a rare day, anymore, that any of our servers or research workstation are total custom built -- only for the most specialized.
Some precisions are mobile to meet the use case -- many of our research engineers doth not hoist, for a desktop form-factor instead.
Some have funding earmarked to OEM purchases. Lifecycle needing standardized parts, firmwares, updates, etc. is also a factor.
Sometimes it's not dollar efficient on the front end, but washes out on the back when considering total lifecycle, downtime, managing exceptions, etc.
richie65@reddit
Laptops are regarded as disposable by the industry.
The one place they can always count on creating a failure within the designed lifespan is by using CPU paste that really cannot last more than (typically) three years at best...
I used to be in the habit of, when buying computers for the family (they insisted that they have to have a laptop) - The first thing I did, was disassemble it, and replace the CPU paste...
I still do this step / task for one of my (mid-30's) daughters, and for my wife....
I don't have to do it as often... Because a laptop will easily outlive its battery - if the CPU paste does not fail.
Then, all they have to do is look for a new battery... I think each was running on 6 or 7 year old laptops... on their second or third battery...
I just bought my wife a new one - So she could run Win 11 (and replaced the paste)
Feeling-Tutor-6480@reddit
Why aren't you logging a pro support ticket?
Titan_91@reddit (OP)
Feeling-Tutor-6480@reddit
Makes sense, I work in house and would not allow my guys to do what you did on a $4000 system
gihutgishuiruv@reddit
No disrespect, but I can’t imagine working in this field with such a mindset.
A tech-savvy 14-year-old could do this.
Feeling-Tutor-6480@reddit
With a fleet of 10000 machines I don't think you can really take that mindset, but you do you
Titan_91@reddit (OP)
Again, it's 2 hours vs. 20 minutes. As an MSP, we don't ask the customer to escalate an issue to Dell we can fix ourselves, and fix it properly. The customer pays us to solve problems, not make phone calls.
gihutgishuiruv@reddit
Likewise. The overwhelming majority of businesses on this planet don’t operate at that scale. Unfortunately, that means that some of us have to actually solve problems rather than playing ticket-mailman for vendors.
Titan_91@reddit (OP)
It's a laptop, not a storage cluster.
zeetree137@reddit
Dell would just replace it with the same but new paste. You want better paste do it yourself. The crap dell uses lasts about 5 years. It's just cheap shin-etsu microsi silocone.
PubstarHero@reddit
Probably because they're going to replace it with the same thermal paste?
I was Subcontracted to work on HP systems for the Navy for a bit. The only thermal paste they gave us to repaste overheating machines was the stuff that comes in a syringe that resembles more of a clay than paste.
aCloakedOne@reddit
I hope you don’t have dell pro support, but I would assume if one were to brick their motherboard doing this that it would void the manufacturer warranty however I’m wondering if someone else would know more
Blue-Purity@reddit
Thank you for doing Dell’s job for them.
They can justify doing this because instead of using their resources you used their own. I’d have used support so that way they have the numbers to say, “hey, 1500 people complained about the thermal paste and we spent X replacing it, we should increase QA to avoid this”.
aCloakedOne@reddit
Looks like he may not (I hope) be paying for Dell support I would assume
aCloakedOne@reddit
I hope you don’t have dell pro support, but I would assume if one were to brick their motherboard doing this that it would void the manufacturer warranty however I’m wondering if someone else would know more
zeetree137@reddit
It's both cost cutting and fits their failure curves. Lasts ~5 years and their longest warranty is 6 HP and Lenovo use similar cheap crap
Titan_91@reddit (OP)
You're welcome, it's what our customers expect. Dell didn't do it from the beginning, and I have no faith it will be done right. Why would it when they can save 2 cents per laptop and drive sales of new laptops when they break?
Blue-Purity@reddit
Because if you follow the process you were supposed to, it’ll cost them more than 2 cents.
zeetree137@reddit
Microsi shin-etsu silicone compound
It's the only paste dell uses. Lenovo and HP are similar. I had a few tubes of Lenovo I just can't find them or I would post it too.
Warning! Not all paste is direct die safe. Pretty sure OP picked one that is but use caution repasting laptops