Have sprint retrospectives become a place you can no longer be honest ??
Posted by Far-Device-1969@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 149 comments
This is 2nd time this happened (both gov jobs)...
Start out with energy... me and the other guy from commercial sector and know how to get things done.. and looking to steer the ship the right direction and fixed some failing projects and that was good. The general atmosphere is lethargic and management centric with many older people being there for years and just doing their thing without any real passion about coding .. Just maintaining really old apps..
But over weeks I went from trying to explain ways we could really change things to just asking myself 'what's the point'
So now during the retro there are 2 conversations.. #1 The official one where people participate the bare minimum just to get through the meeting and #2 the honest one I have with another developer about all the serious problems we have and how we are frustrated that no one seems to know what they are doing to get these new projects completed (no requirements beyond a email and a xls file.. all the work being pushed to the devs to figure out etc.. )
So I would love to be honest and talk about what I REALLY think but after months it seems it is not worth being honest because all it will do is make me stick out in an unfavorable way..
Anyone else have a job like this ?
HashMapsData2Value@reddit
How are you structuring the retrospectives? Do you only talk about bad things, or do you address good things that happened as well?
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
both.. but for example, if I am being honest then.. The bad is 'It has taken 2 weeks for someone to create a branch in TFVC for us to put our code in and technically we are not supposed to even develop until then'
But nothing will change.. the large majority there is zombified as I like to put it.
Its not a place for my personality where I enjoy coding and hate wasting time but these are the only choices I have in the DC area.
adilp@reddit
Amazon has HQ2 in Arlington and are hiring people especially if you have a clearance. You would enjoy it a lot more there. I went DOD -> Amazon and it felt like I finally found people who challenge me, work like me, have a passion for solving problems and get paid/prestige. There are downsides like it's a higher bar, you can't coast more than 1 quarter or you might get the pip.
All teams are engineering teams, line managers also do leetcode so they are engineering background. It's nice to have leadership who knows not only what it's like to be an engineer, but a good one.
SnooPears2424@reddit
I’m glad you to hear this. I am going through the exact same thing as OP right now, with government too. I came from a medium sized private company, and sorted stumbled into DoD contracting work the last couple of years. I’m really passionate about whatever I’m working on for my DoD client, and I am so frustrated and sad at the low quality of the work (and lack of any work period) from other contractors. Some of these contracting companies literally hire “senior engineers” that I kid you not, do not know which part of a function call is the function name and which part is the input parameter. And I’ve tried teaching them. I’ve put genuine effort in training these people and sending them extra resources, but it doesn’t stick. I started off being empathetic and thought anyone can do anything as long as they try. But I now realize that, beyond complacency, some people are simply not smart enough and have no critical thinking skills for this type of work.
The contracting bosses of these companies play politics, backstab, and obfuscate the problem rather than hiring real people with skills. The government supervisor we work for is corrupt and gets these contracting companies to hire his friends who have no skills.
I’m going to prep for a AWS federal job in a few months, hopefully I get an interview.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I keep hoping to get something in the middle... don't be stressed out constantly.. but also get things done day to day and be proud of something... but these gov jobs are so depressing sometimes
sadly I have been just doing .NET past 20 years
HashMapsData2Value@reddit
> both.. but for example, if I am being honest then.. The bad is 'It has taken 2 weeks for someone to create a branch in TFVC for us to put our code in and technically we are not supposed to even develop until then'
Could a point of discussion then be, "how do we ensure we are not blocked by the 2 weeks it takes for someone to create a branch? Can we escalate this to someone higher? If not, can we use that time for other stuff?"
I'd still recommend you leave of course, it's not on you to change the entire culture.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
we did say that... they said.. yeah... we need to do something about that! and then moved on... they just don't care (in gov)
I miss working commercial on a actual product sometimes.
Lithium1978@reddit
I have never said a single word in a retro. I do join the call but I generally read Reddit while they chat.
1haker@reddit
Its common, also gov job here, just dont give a damn
1haker@reddit
Its common, also gov job here, just dont give a damn
ViceCrimesOrgasm@reddit
Never tell anyone outside the family what you think!
Aggravating-Intern69@reddit
If your manager doesn't encorauge honest feedback and does nothing with the pushbacks I would just stop caring at all. Caring too much will just give you extra headaches and work.
Capable_Hamster_4597@reddit
They don't actually want to do or change anything, if they did it would've already happened. Many european companies, especially german ones are like this too. Usually the places where people are harder to fire than elsewhere.
Find the rare project that isn't like this, start cruising or leave.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I think most are cruising but me and the other guy are on the new azure project which is totally new while everyone else seems to be maintaining old apps... I get a feeling they all are glad they aren't us and can just relax in their world
Still not sure what to do .. Seeing how things progress
bedandbreakfast765@reddit
From what I have experienced a new director eventually gets hired. Hires people lower on the totem pole for newer technology to keep the area going. Eventually they become the old person maintaining old tech.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
At some point something needs to happen.. Maybe they blow it all up and just hire a big team of contractors to fix everything and get the gov managers out of the way
bedandbreakfast765@reddit
It does happen. Jpl is a good example of that. It just takes a long time to root out the cancer I guess.
SamBrintonsLuggage@reddit
I will never work for the government again unless I'm ready to completely check out. I would recommend checking out, or coming back to private sector. I don't think I could do it again, I got too bored and frustrated by it.
hippydipster@reddit
Yup, completely checked out here. 11 months waiting to be told "ok, go!" no go. no nothing. I go for a lot of walks. A lot of money paying for these walks.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
at 49 and knowing nothing but .NET for 20 years I am worried that commercial will be the opposite and ill be back to being stressed out again trying to keep up.. I keep hoping there is a chill gov job but we can still do actual work in a modern way
Known-A5@reddit
The problem is not worker protection laws. It's simply that these things are tolerated or encouraged: If you have a culture with a low tolerance for risk or mistakes for example.
Capable_Hamster_4597@reddit
They're tolerated precisely because of these laws, since getting around them is expensive as hell at scale.
NoPossibility2370@reddit
This is not true at all. Firing people doesn’t create a better environment where people feel motivated to say what they believe. I work in a company that it’s easy to fire people, people get fired often, but the meetings are just like this. People just say yes to everything the boss say, they don’t try to stand up or offer a hot take because they don’t wanna get fired. They just try to do the necessary to not get fired.
Capable_Hamster_4597@reddit
Labour laws that allow you to let people go for good business reasons and a culture of letting people go over small things are not the same thing.
If you or your organization is doing irrelevant busy work and refuse to adjust to a changing business environment your company should absolutely be able to terminate your contracts.
Capable_Hamster_4597@reddit
It's tolerated because of excessive worker protection laws and partially also because the german state holds significant shares in big german companies.
I've seen entire teams of german boomers doing irrelevant busy work that just leaves a paper trail on a bunch of blackhole Sharepoint sites nobody else is using.
Why? Because you can't get rid of these people without expensive corporate transformations and lobbying.
KoalityKoalaKaraoke@reddit
That's kind of a stupid generalisation. In my experience working for both European and American companies it's the American ones that are much more old fashioned and resistant to change. (Governments excluded)
Capable_Hamster_4597@reddit
Sticking to our industry, you can't tell me that FAANG is more old-fashioned than SAP or Siemens I'm sorry.
KoalityKoalaKaraoke@reddit
There are in fact more companies than just those
Capable_Hamster_4597@reddit
Compare the output of the european tech industry then, Dollars don't lie.
Compare the contents of industry media, european companies are still talking about transformations americans went through 10+ years ago.
Neither are signs of an innovative business culture.
KoalityKoalaKaraoke@reddit
Ah, so the higher revenue of American tech companies comes from their superior retrospective skills?
I'm sorry, but what an incredibly stupid argument to make.
Capable_Hamster_4597@reddit
You'd reject that metric too if it existed.
Sheldor5@reddit
harder to fire?
I know a case of sexual harassment in such a place, dude only got moved to a different team instead of fired, also zero legal consequences from HR whatsoever ...
Known-A5@reddit
But that's a company problem, not a legal one.
Sheldor5@reddit
jab at the gov
brazzy42@reddit
That has nothing to do with "people are hard to fire". Sexual harassment is a valid reason for an immediate firing without notice or severance. When it doesn't happen it's either because there's no proof, because the offender has some sort of clout with management, or HR doesn't care / doesn't want the hassle of a potential wrongful termination lawsuit.
Whatdoesthis_do@reddit
Retro’s are tribunals nowadays consisting of a blame being passed around and assigning scape goats. They are absolutely the worst thing in this field and they serve zero purpouse.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
or a chance to speak up and quietly brag which can be helpful
Whatdoesthis_do@reddit
On paper maybe. In reality they are a gathering of toxic people trying to better themselves over each others back.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
That seems to be it. But its not toxic its just that they lost their skills and are worried about when they will stop maintaining they old app and be asked to do something new.. is my guess... most are around the age of 55
Whatdoesthis_do@reddit
I work with people ages 25-35 and its the same. Im not the best dev to go around. I am self thaught and never had a formal education in this field. Have been doing this for seven years now. And i’m noticing i dont have the speed that some of the youngsters fresh out of school have.
I can code and i can do what they do just not at the same speed. And this leads to very toxic conversations with other senior devs ( me being a medior ) .
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I'm self taught college dropout and I have a weird problem where some interviews I do TOO WELL because I know so much about .NET on a surface level
I just want a job and do my best and not feel stressed out but also not fake it and pretend to work while basically doing nothing like everyone else
Whatdoesthis_do@reddit
Fake it till you make it. Just like my two leads.
BehindTrenches@reddit
Some ways of being honest in retrospectives are more productive than others.
What I've seen from the most senior engineers in my org is that they have a different way of communicating things that need improvement than the rest of us. It starts with a different perspective on the problem, like not assuming personal/emotional causes to bad outcomes - which is very hard for me. When they deliver the issue, they focus on supporting data and a positive path forward, it comes out very matter-of-fact and not emotional.
Adept_Carpet@reddit
Part of this is the nature of government. If a problem was easy or profitable to solve, there would be a company out there solving it.
In government, a lot of the work is getting people to recognize a problem, getting people to recognize a solution, making the case that the solution is worth the hassle, etc.
And of course that makes it easy for people who want to hide out and do the minimum to do so. That's the nature of the beast and you'll be happier if you plan around it.
The other option, and probably the better one for you if you want to continue on in the same organization you're with now, is to look for where the other energetic people are find a way to join them. They'll be thinking the same way you are and be happy to have you and find a way to bring you in.
NoPossibility2370@reddit
If it was profitable, not easy.
A lot of major corporations work like the government. I work in a big company and it’s just like OP described.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
on the bright side there seems to be a power vacuum so if someone is willing to step up and put in the effort they could quickly move up the ladder on the technical side. Cause right now everyone does little as possible
nit3rid3@reddit
You're still thinking like you're in the commercial side. Moving up in government is dictated by a single thing: total time in. That's why no one gives a shit.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
and that's fine when you change font color once a month as a job but I think in 2024 maybe it is a unique time where most have checked out but all of a sudden they are being told to write new code and managers just assume they will know how to do it.
casualfinderbot@reddit
I would just ask everyone on the team “do we need our weekly retrospective, if not let’s cancel it”. No one wants to be there, don’t make them show up. Why waste everyone’s time
Tbh, it’s a government job full of unmotivated people. They’re never going to be motivated, they want that job precisely because they want to be some where they don’t have to try.
I think it’s unrealistic to expect change without replacing people. Some people just don’t care, that’s how they are. The only way you could possibly motivate these people is by making them fear getting fired, which even then may not be enough. If you don’t have that power, there’s nothing to be done.
So either try to get them fired, make them fear getting fired, or just focus on what you’re doing and ignore their apathy (assuming you want to stay at this job)
Having the right people is to start with is the most important thing which may already be a lost cause at this point. I would be very careful about spending your own motivated energy trying to fix lazy people
NoPossibility2370@reddit
I work agile in a private company, and retro are just like this. This is not an issue of motivation. It’s a issue with psychological safety, which is a pretty hard thing to change, because if people are afraid of disagree of their boss, they won’t say that they are afraid lol.
sociallydeclined@reddit
Agreed. Forcing an agile culture can be useless in certain instances. If a retro is superficial, why have it at all?
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
this is a cash where agile was forced upon everyone so they officially have these ceremonies but no one wants to be there or gets anything out of it
Ciff_@reddit
Then it does not hold purpouse so pause it for a while, quit doing it all together, or change the way it is done. That would be agile.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
if only I had that power :( ... Us new cloud devs are bottom of the org chart
meisteronimo@reddit
That job blows my dude. Either embrace the unproductive expectations, or go somewhere interesting.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
id be fine with wasting time and getting paid but the project is failing with the managers all getting in the way (And some cases fighting with each other in our meetings)
So the question becomes about job security and when I should start looking.. I really do want to get the job done
new2bay@reddit
Is it possible you could make these meetings useful in terms of turning the project around, even if you don't do a "sprint retrospective" per se during the time?
Alternatively, what would happen if you just... didn't go to the retro? And if the answer to that is "not much," then what would happen if more of the team just... stopped going?
From my own personal experience, even in a culture that embraces the agile concepts of continuous delivery and working software as the best measure of progress, it's not only possible but easy to get in a rut with those retros. There were times in one of my previous jobs where I'd be sitting (or even leading!) a retro, and just the feeling of déjà vu I'd have when we'd talk about what could go better was just maddening!
At one point, we stopped doing retros after every single sprint on that team and switched to having a bigger retro after two sprints. That worked well for where we were as a team at that point. Having less frequent retros meant we weren't forced to come up with ways to improve even if we couldn't really see how we could have anticipated what went wrong during the sprint, or whatever.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
have you ever worked in gov ?
EMCoupling@reddit
You seem to care a lot about a job that cares very little about you or the projects that you work on. Either you accept the trainwreck that is going to come, knowing that you are incapable of stopping it or you jump ship.
bedandbreakfast765@reddit
Sorry you are experiencing this.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I would love to be honest but I'm sure it would be met by silence and awkwardness rather than they 'HES GOT A POINT! YEAH!'
The people we work with who brought us 2 in are concerned about their job I can tell and been lots of sneaky stuff going on.
I just was really hoping this would be a job I could be plugged into a well run machine.. not another disaster
ohcrocsle@reddit
This is where leadership comes in. If you just complain and tell people your frustrations, you're not winning anybody over. You haven't explained why anyone else is demotivated or impassionate, you just kinda rant that they suck. People are different, they've seen some shit if they've been there a long time, go talk to them and ask them what they see going on. Understand their POV, they might be winnable, they might go along with what they see as a good cause. I doubt the new guys coming in and saying "you're doing everything wrong, you should do it this other way" is championing your solutions for you.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
we are looking for allies but we are down to one last person and given hope on everyone else. The only good part is the other new guy that got hired with me most suffer with me.. but atleast we can relate and tell each other its not us that is crazy
keelanstuart@reddit
See, that's the thing that would make sense: cancelling useless meetings. But with government jobs, the customer often doesn't know what they want and everything that they do want is an emergency - at least right then (it's likely to change in the next meeting). The meetings are always the same and very little seems to actually happen....... but if you cancel the meetings, you can't manage expectations. So many government programs, in spite of whatever good they may intend to do, are awarded to companies whose real mission is simply to prolong the contract duration while providing just enough value to not get it cancelled and maybe get an extension.
I hate it. I would love to improve it... but, I'm not sure how when the people hired to manage the programs on the government side aren't often qualified to make technical decisions.
specracer97@reddit
I tried changing it by founding and competing.
Realized that I need a seat in Congress to have a chance. But realistically even a single legislator can't fix this in a post Citizens United and Cruz v FEC world.
keelanstuart@reddit
Hat tip to the Internet stranger.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
what bothers me is the game played around communicating.. It feels like everyone is looking out for themselves and theres no sense of team
keelanstuart@reddit
It is 100% a game.
DeltaEdge03@reddit
ime never suggest cancelling reoccurring meetings. The reason? Some managers justify their existence by living in meetings. If they have one less meeting that’s a hit on their performance
If it’s not a hit in performance, then it’s a hit to their manager ego. This will cause them to will get butthurt and defensive, which is a situation in where rank will be pulled
I’ve been in this spot. Either accept it or change jobs. Fighting a one man fight (as a regular worker) to change department / division / company culture will always end with a loss
ComprehensiveWord201@reddit
Welcome to government work. Once you're there long enough to be respected you can just advocate for change (or do it yourself) but for now life will suck.
Complete-Brick7506@reddit
Always have been. The entire agile bs, is just that, bs
hippydipster@reddit
You can't fix lack of empowerment from the bottom.
This is something the others have learned, and I have faith you will too!
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I thought maybe since we were the only ones who could do the actual real work they might respect us more.. even though we are bottom of the org chart
hippydipster@reddit
You'd think but its not typical. More typical is that the technical folks are feared and disliked by the non-technical.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
yeah.. I guess only at real tech companies they get respected since the people in charge are technical
Managers at these gov jobs play this game where they want to know what I am doing but when I try to get them to sit down and understand they lose interest
hippydipster@reddit
It's everywhere not just gov jobs.
Ch3t@reddit
One job tried to do Agile. We had retrospectives at the end of each sprint. We played all the games they taught at Scrum Master training. Nothing ever changed. We kept doing the same things over and over hoping for different results. We had a retrospective about 6-9 months into our Agile experiment. I rolled the fuzzy dice and won a chance to write a suggestion on the whiteboard. I wrote, "Let's implement one change suggested in any previous retrospective." The scrum master told the CEO I was not being a team player.
SpiderHack@reddit
I found Miro pre-writing out your comments and aligning them into kudos, issues faced, things to improve makes it way faster and more meaningful.
All 3 are fairly simple, allow someone to praise, identify an issue, and propose a solution... Or be quiet about it.
If you can't frame your remarks into something useful for the team and make it short then I don't care about it and it can wait until you do.
But... You need at least leadership to actually take feedback and work towards addressing issues and improving things. Otherwise it is a waste of time.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
the leadership IS the problem. thats why there is no solution
SignoreBanana@reddit
In one of our retros I had raised a topic that apparently struck a chord with a lot of our team and they also heavily weighed in on it. After the meeting my manager expressed to me he was disappointed I hadn’t brought it to his attention first. I had said that I thought retros were the place to do that but I got the sense he was basically reprimanding me for “lowering morale” (as though that was my goal).
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
same thing. you want my opinion? then i tell you and it makes you sad :(
so like i said.. in the end its just a ceremony they put in place because they are ordered to 'do agile'
LiamTheHuman@reddit
My advice is to p video your feedback in a very controlled and careful way in the actual retro.
First just pick one issue per sprint to bring up. This requires you to prioritize and most importantly makes it clearer to everyone that you aren't just complaining about a bunch of things, which can be overwhelming for people used to the status quo.
Second, try to frame it in a way that makes it as cooperative as possible and leave almost zero room for any us vs them interpretation. People working for a long time on a system get invested in it and start to attach how the system runs or processes work to how well they do their job(which isn't really fair or correct to do but still happens). The best way to do this is in my opinion to bring up an issue you had and then ask if anyone else has had similar problems over their longer tenure. Is this a pain point worth looking into? Get them to say yes or no and just hope you hit something that bugs them too. This way it's less, 'I have problems with the current way' and more 'are you guys bugged by this too? Let's make it easier for the next guy'
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
me and the other guy are thinking if we are getting close to leaving this job maybe we should start being more honest and let them deal with it..
They are too entrenched here and the fact that except for my group of 4.. The other 6 people all work on their on independent project and they do their own thing.. I don't think managers even pay much attention... I think it could be different if everyone worked on the same project
LiamTheHuman@reddit
Ya that sounds really rough. Maybe just try to work with the people who are on the same project and ignore the others. If you can get the four of you on the same page, you can maybe start moving things to a better dynamic
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I do.. one is cool.. and the other 2 trying to throw us under the bus.. they been here for years but can't code so they put vague things on the sprint board trying to fake it
LiamTheHuman@reddit
This keeps sounding worse and worse. Good luck, I really hope you can figure it out but hey if you can't there are always other jobs.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
never any bad side to accepting interviewing .. my resume looks awful now though
Relative-Debt6509@reddit
I work in a similar area… and it’s the same. Some of it is the fault of the engineers some of management. More often than not it can be a passive aggressive way for a team lead to publicly give performance reviews. In other times it’s a hot line to management. As someone like myself who works hard in spurts and is pushed into a salaried corporate position I find that I CYA a lot in these retrospectives both in sprints where I’m a rockstar and in sprints where I could have pushed myself harder. As cliche as it sounds you have to have trust and I don’t trust every single person on my team.
gomihako_@reddit
No, but I think one retro every sprint is too frequent, everybody just repeats the same stuff every week because we're too busy "sprinting" to fix the recurring process issues. Quarterly works best for me.
DaelonSuzuka@reddit
Become?
nit3rid3@reddit
It's government...
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
its a roll of the dice.. i think the job depends on if there's a respected long term technical lead in place that keeps things from falling apart or if the managers have taken over
levelworm@reddit
I really hate it. Every time I have to think hard to get something out. I mean what exciting things can happen every two weeks?
I'll tactically skip some of these meetings in the future.
bwainfweeze@reddit
Is that a “things are going well” or a “I dunno what all these other people are whining about”? Low pain threshold can be a problem for team progress, but I’ve always found more problems with high tolerance. It’s hard to go faster or create fewer bugs when certain people think the process has peaked.
levelworm@reddit
It's a mix of "things are going as usual so nothing to talk about" and "there are some issues I mentioned but people have different views so nothing to talk about".
BTW kudos for 30 YOE (I only have 7 and is a late comer, got into IT at 30+). What do you do?
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
ive been doing this 25 years. The hard part is finding something stable where I could always be learning
levelworm@reddit
Can relate. I "hop" ships every 1-2 years, but I was forced to hop either because the company is on the brink of collapse, or was laying off xyz people every quarter...
Damn I wish there were a place that I could be a sys programmer and die in.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
the job before this one was really stable but the most souless place I ever worked... I went to work but it was almost like I was not there...
So then I took this Azure cloud job thinking great! Ill be able to do some interesting cloud code.
So ill have to explain all the job hopping at all the upcoming interview it seems
old_man_snowflake@reddit
This is just government coding jobs. That's where people go to get an easy pension/retirement without having to do any real work.
Government pay is generally crap, so it attracts ... crap. No shade to you, when you're younger you get your experience however you can get it. But realize that anyone who can perform better and has other options, generally doesn't want to work for a government agency.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
you are right.. at the right spot you maintain some app and do 20 mins of actual work.. The downside is everyone loses their skills and any enthusiasm to code... so me and the other guy are surrounded by this
saposapot@reddit
I assume you already tried to give some honest feedback?
If not I would suggest you start small and see their reaction. Don’t just say “this project is absolute shit and unmanaged”.. give a tiny tiny tiny suggestion to improve something significant but that everyone won’t make “personal”.
If that isn’t accepted and improved then just forget it.
If it is, you can start going bigger.
I fortunately try to avoid companies with so much political games and BS all around so I don’t really have first hand experience but Even on my case it’s always political. There’s always a way to frame criticism in a better light.
Another useful tip I try to do when something is REALLY wrong is not say it’s wrong but ask if anyone else thinks this is wrong and if Y would be a better solution
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
since we both contemplating leave at this point we will crank up the honesty and stop being a yes man... I want to feel like I tried to explain to when what is going wrong even if they don't believe me
saposapot@reddit
Still, take it with a diplomatic approach. Otherwise it’s just some cranky dudes that are leaving and are just yelling. If you really want to change something, you need to approach it with proper communication skills
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
we really not trying to go out with any drama... The project is failing again.. The last guys they hired quit/got fired... I want to explain to them without being mean. but the truth of it all is they don't know what they are doing and its hard to say that nicely
Legatomaster@reddit
Better nip that honesty in the bud ASAP. You're in a pretend important meeting, so learn to say pretend important things. Otherwise, id like to tell you that you might make a positive change, but you'll probably just get fired.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
you right I think.. play the game.. don't stand up.. you want to get paid or not? Problem is I am part of the group doing the new development so its not so cozy and they fired the last 2 guys that tried to do this project a year ago
bwainfweeze@reddit
Is your boss in the meeting? That kills retros faster than anything.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
only useful meetings are when its only developers
ezaquarii_com@reddit
I never had issue like that, probably because MBAs were too cowardly to even allow a retro to happen.
However, a successful ones were generally following few simple rules:
Teccs@reddit
I’ve been in Defense/Gov for almost 2yrs now after transitioning from commercial and I’m approaching my limit wanting to go back commercial. There is no drive to do anything other than the bare minimum, and so much red tape that you can’t even see straight. Being driven in the slightest to make things better feels fundamentally incompatible with the field. It’s soul crushing.
I don’t believe you’ll be able to change the team atmosphere if no one is willing. You can always toe the line on your own and improve things without them asking for it. Sometimes it’s better to ask forgiveness than permission.
Due_Conversation9589@reddit
Thank you for posting about this. I have been working for a government contractor for some time now and have experienced this during my entire tenure. The environment is one of general apathy and even when new projects are approved they don’t seem to make it to production. I feel like I’m losing my mind lately and even started to think that I’m being thrown busy work in order to slow me down from delivering on more meaningful projects or ideas. Sounds crazy but my mind goes in circles trying to rationalize what is going on.
Successful-Divide655@reddit
This isn't a them problem, it's a you problem. You need to stop trying to come in and save the world. They're paid to do a job and have no obligation to go above and beyond. Why people in FAANG work so hard is because there's a high correlation between working harder and higher compensation. Or people fear getting fired. Unless you have the power to roll in and fire everyone then you're barking up the wrong tree. If you're this passionate then get a new job where the passion will be rewarded. Some people just want to clock in, get the check, and go home. Nothing wrong with that.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I agree. Its a roll of the dice every job. They never say at the job interviews 'We are mostly checked out and don't even code much beyond a few lines every weeks'
CoolNefariousness865@reddit
At least you have retros I guess lol
Our SM does nothing of value besides schedule our meetings for grooming and standup. I honestly do not understand how/why we're paying this guy north of 6 figures. We're lucky if we talk to him twice a week.
Couple weeks ago I got fed up, and started doing all the SM stuff myself. Our lead/PO loved it, but management not so much haha
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
at this point me and the other dev just do everything to the point that we really don't need managers or all these meetings.. all we ever needed was the reqs so we knew the work that we needed to do .. no one else outside of us two offers any value as far as completing the project
jkingsbery@reddit
If you work with inherently unmotivatable people, things are never going to be good. There is no process cure for working with unmotivatable people.
Assuming that the people you are working with are capable of being motivated, I think it's easy to fall into a rut with retrospectives. Very often, teams use a rotating scrum master, and whoever that person is leads the retrospective, which I think is a mistake: leading a retrospective is a skill in its own right. For people I'm mentoring who are new to the team lead/senior engineer/manager role, I often recommend two books, Project Retrospectives by Norman Kerth and Agile Retrospectives by Esther Derby and Diana Larsen. These are both really helpful in thinking about what a retrospective can be, and how to mix up the format so that you aren't going through the motions.
One thing that contributes to unproductive retrospectives is a lack of follow-up actions. For example: do a 5 Why's conversation on the lack of requirements, and then get a senior person in the room take on the project to use that feedback to improve the process. As the team sees that as they speak up, things start getting better, then you'll see that you get people speaking up more.
Another issue is that sometimes retros have too many participants. People talk more freely around others who have earned their trust. If you have a large team, consider breaking things down by groups of people working closer together, so they can identify pain points that are more relevant to them.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
we have 9 people on 6 completely separate project so I think that is a big problem. No one has any idea what the other person is talking about... all i noticed is this guy has been working on some sort of 'excel import' for like 3 months now!
TheHotSorcerer@reddit
No one is honest in retros. Waste of time
bulbishNYC@reddit
We don’t do retros. The underlying assumption for them is that you are in an Agile environment where people want to experiment how to do things better.
Our developers will not pick up an additional ounce of responsibility, they want to be spoon fed tickets. Our management will not give up an inch of control nor an inch of paperwork. We tried retros but it was a total stalemate, everyone pushing back against change.
HowTheStoryEnds@reddit
One would be a right fool to pick up more responsibility without the authority.
netderper@reddit
The retros I've seen seem to focus more on procedure and process of the retro, agile ceremonial nonsense... not the actual content. We typically have more "managers" (PMs and otherwise) at the retro than actual developers. It is absolutely insane.
Nimweegs@reddit
If they cared about the procedures and processes there wouldn't be any managers at a teams retro. I don't count a product owner as a manager.
netderper@reddit
Product owners are fine. But "customer relationship managers" and other assorted individuals should stay out.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
All I want from managers are clear requirements and we can't even get that.
Pristine_Shoulder_21@reddit
The only people that actually want to be on the retrospective are the higher ups
bicx@reddit
As a manager, I tried my hardest to track retro feedback and try to integrate learnings into future projects. However, it's a challenge to do anything too major, because the roadmap is usually set somewhere over my head. I can only try to squeeze in improvements as that roadmap permits.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
if someone is not saying much and you really want the truth you should talk to them 1 on 1 and make it feel ok to know how they really feel...
I don't do it because there is nothing to gain and possible lowers my job security
Queasy-Group-2558@reddit
I’m not in the US, but over here government projects are usually terrible about efficiency. All the incentives are misaligned, so the appearance of business (instead of delivering actually useful software) is what matters.
That and all the red tape involved in changing processes and doing stuff (as in “you’re not allowed to touch this part of the software because of bureaucracy”) has made several people I know quit.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I wonder if it is not worse than ever in 2024 after years of everyone being complacent maintaining old apps.. maybe the time has come for new dev and people are not ready
Sheldor5@reddit
this is the problem
people have a secure job and there is no way they get fired for being bad/lazy/unmotivated/unqualified so why should they do their job if they also keep their job if they simply don't do their job?
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
its that way for everyone except on this new azure project.. Everyone is shocked things arent getting done and people freaking out.. Not aware that people maintaining a 15 year old BizTalk app don't magically know Azure and how to do cloud dev... we just people stacking bricks to management
YetMoreSpaceDust@reddit
"Become"? Were they ever?
bwainfweeze@reddit
I know there’s a guy on my old team who probably doesn’t know I hate his guts because I realized I was talking to a brick wall and stopped telling him what his behavior was doing to the team and teams around us. There was just no point.
If you stop fighting with someone they may assume you’ve gotten over it instead of written them off.
Downtown_Football680@reddit
I don't do retros for this exact reason.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I would like it if I could only be honest and people were interested in really changing
Whatdoesthis_do@reddit
Wish i had that luxery
tugs_cub@reddit
I have never really felt like it’s a problem to be honest (sometimes you want to be careful in your word choice but that’s a skill). I seldom feel like it makes a difference, though, which seems to be more fundamentally what you’re complaining about anyway. I guess I can think of a few times where raising issues repeatedly in multiple venues, including that one, eventually got someone to take them seriously.
SherbertResident2222@reddit
It depends if the Retro is just Devs or if there are non-Devs there. Ie managers.
Retros with non-devs are just a box ticking task and are utterly pointless. Unless you want to increase your chances of being fired.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
I agree.. once the managers arrive the real conversation ends.. when its devs we got nothing to talk about except the real work we doing
xabrol@reddit
Ww have two retros. One with the client and one with just us.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
im not allowed to talk to the client :(
softwaredoug@reddit
I’d say adjust your process to what’s useful. If sprint retros can’t be done well, don’t waste everyone time.
LiamTheHuman@reddit
Having been on teams that do productive sprint retros and ones that are just checking boxes that it was done, this is the best advice. It's a complete and utter waste of everyone's time to do a retro that isn't steering or revealing anything. No use having a meeting about where the ship should go if no one is steering.
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
It seems the agile thing was just sold to everyone as some automatic way everything works better. Put these ceremonies on the schedule and people magically get more work done. I've seen this before in the gov contract jobs
Far-Device-1969@reddit (OP)
in the end I just try to find my 'island' to work on and have control of my part of the world
Electrical-Top-5510@reddit
it is corporate; nobody is honest, and whoever is honest will be punished. Just go, pretend you are interested and care and go back to code
Southern-Reveal5111@reddit
I have been attending our team's retrospectives for the past 3.5 years, and not a single session has been useful to me. While it’s helpful for understanding how things are going for others, overall, it feels like a waste of time. The discussions focus on what went wrong and what can be improved, but the points are noted down and never revisited.
Nimweegs@reddit
Nah, I've always been very outspoken and strict on these things. People who don't belong in Scrum events get kicked out. They don't like it, and some struggle but when push comes to shove my manager and team have always got my back.
Retro is for the scrum team - developers, product owner, and scrum master. You evaluate the last sprint and see if you can make adjustments. If there are organizational changes its the scrum masters job to facilitate it.
Sidebarring with the other dev might feel nice but that just seems like a venting session. I feel that we as professionals should take more responsibility and agency. In the next retro speak up, say that the retro in current form isn't working and that the scrum master should intervene / find a format that works.
The events Arent fun but they're useful in my team, they weren't as useful when I started but by speaking up and following through it got better. Stand-ups no longer 45 minutes but always under 15, only scrum team talks. Review is structured and business people show up (even though we're a backed team showing json responses in postman lmao), the retro is sometimes short sometimes long.
danknadoflex@reddit
Never voice complaints in a retro or tell the truth only positives. Just make something up that’s a non-negative negative if you have to talk. There is no safe space for this. You have nothing to gain here. The best case scenario is they do nothing. More likely, you may end up with more work, more meetings, more bureaucracy if they try to “solve” problems. Worst case you get on someone’s shit list.