Resources on improving my attitude to become more "professional"
Posted by planteiro@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 30 comments
I'm a developer with 7 YoE who have had the luck of getting to interesting greenfield projects when I have designed with my team from the ground up complex projects, and also worked with knowledgeable people who taught me a lot. My problem isn't technical.
My problem comes with my personal / professional skills, like sometimes I get lost in details that aren't important instead of focusing on the big picture, or I become too stressed about talking to certain people and wondering if my question will sound dumb so I take lots of time to do it. I also tend to space out in meetings a lot and forget the details.
Even reading some comments in this sub and other I often get the impression I'm not "mature" enough to write such comments with substance, even though I "should" because I have a lot of experience.
I'd like to improve on that to become a mature solid engineer who's reliable and trustworthy.
Is there any book / course / general advice to improve my attitude?
Cool-Rule9231@reddit
The only thing that really helped me was just learning by doing. You think you might sound dumb? What are they going to do? Fire you? You think you are not mature enough for your position? Then why did they hire you to do the job?
I think this is mostly imposter syndrome and the earlier you understand that you are the one that is giving them the impression that you don’t own your position, the earlier you can break out of it. The best engineers and managers very the ones that were honest to themselves, also being honest about the good things that you bring to the table.
janyk@reddit
Yes? Why do people downplay this as a farfetched possibility? It happens all the time and it's a painful ordeal to go through. In fact, I'd wager most firings have to do with perceptions of someone's competence rather than any objective analysis of performance. In my 10+ years I have never seen any objective measurements of performance. Only a lot of half-baked opinions and lazy attempts to collect data in order to support their predetermined conclusions with no understanding of statistics.
This article "How I Ship Projects at Big Tech Companies" has been making the rounds and it's tangentially related as it touches on the idea of projecting the perception of confidence and control over your work so that leadership continues to trust you to keep doing it. You can deliver on your projects continuously, but if your leadership was uncomfortable or anxious the entire time the work was in development then they will not want you to keep working on the things important to them.
Engineers have been taught to do their jobs effectively and the good ones also know how to keep learning and developing knew skills. However, they (we!) need to learn on our own that being good at our jobs and appearing to be good at our jobs are two different things, and it's the appearances that get engineers promoted or, at least, safe in their current jobs. Given the potentially drastic consequences on even your current employment, it is absolutely no trivial matter. Engineers need to learn what our culture interprets to be competence - something like confidence and control - and learn how to develop and project those to their leadership. Otherwise, yes, engineers like the OP are at risk of getting fired.
GlobalScreen2223@reddit
It doesn’t matter if you’re experiencing some amount of unfair disrespect or distrust. Sometimes that’s a problem of an abnormal amount of stress your manager or lead is under and has nothing to do with you. You still have to dodge being collateral damage.
janyk@reddit
Responding to the wrong comment?
supyonamesjosh@reddit
100%
My first job didn’t work out because I didn’t take optics seriously. It was a huge mistake.
WranglerNo7097@reddit
One of the best pieces of career advice I ever got was to "develop your aura"
At the time, I was like wtf is that, but now I get it
GlobalScreen2223@reddit
Some would say it’s being codependent but it’s kind of what you have to do. You are responsible for how other people feel about you.
Nater5000@reddit
Although it gets a lot of hate from a lot of people, what you're describing are the skills taught through business degrees. It's not until you recognize that there's a lot of nuance and challenges in managing things beyond individual contributions that you can learn to appreciate what people like MBAs actually do. Obviously you don't need to get an MBA to learn these skills, but it can help to understand how becoming "professional" is taught in a structured way.
So, aside from going back to school to get a business degree, you should explore resources targeted at that audience. I've found the HBR content, specifically their "Guide" series, are pretty well written and get straight to the point. Many of them work fine as audiobooks, too. But there's tons of resources targeted at business professionals that are worth exploring. And, of course, finding mentorship can be the best resource. You have to find someone who (a) knows what they're doing, (b) is able to teach what they know effectively, and (c) has the capacity to teach you (which is a pretty hard set of criteria to meet), but if you can, then you can learn a lot in a way that is specific to your situation.
But my main point is highlighting that what you're describing are the challenges of business. It's the exact thing many engineers ignore as trivial and even beneath them until they wind up complaining on this sub that they're professional growth has stalled because they haven't realized that their magnificent engineering skills don't actually translate to business value. There's a lot to be said about the role of business in society, but just remember that businesses are basically optimization processes built to maximize the bottom line, and you're rewarded accordingly for contributing to that goal. Everything else about your career is effectively just a downstream process or effect of that, so everything you do is (or at least should be) judged by how well you contribute to the bottom line.
Just so I'm clear: becoming a "mature solid engineer" is a matter of becoming a better business professional. Nobody at your company cares how reliable and trustworthy an engineer you are if it doesn't move the company further. So the best way to become a better engineer, in the context of working at a company, is to become better at the business your engineering is supporting.
janyk@reddit
You're missing the point. Engineers don't typically have problems understanding the business and contributing to the bottom line like you claim and that's not the OP's problem here. The problem is communicating and projecting the image that engineers are contributing successfully.
OP's problems are about communicating the strictly relevant information to the right people at the right time without getting sidetracked and working through his self-confidence issues to communicate without coming across as uncertain and unreliable. He is reliable and capable, he just needs to appear the part, too.
As an aside:
Why are businesses hiring engineers and telling them to work on things that don't translate to business value? Is it the engineer's responsibility to decide what to work on or management's?
Nater5000@reddit
I strongly disagree. I've personally seen this dynamic more than I've seen the alternative, including in myself, and it's a common theme among not just discussions like you'd find in this kind of sub, but also at schools, in books, etc.
OP's problems are about communicating the strictly relevant information to the right people at the right time without getting sidetracked and working through his self-confidence issues to communicate without coming across as uncertain and unreliable.
But this is business. That's my point. The fact that you're suggesting this isn't exactly what I'm pointing towards is exactly my point lol. I mean, you don't learn these things during a engineering degree, right? At least not directly, or as a significant portion of the material you study. You do learn these things during a business degree, though. There's typically multiple classes dedicated to gaining these skills.
Sure. And how do you "appear the part"? Where would you look to learn those skills? And those skills are clearly valuable in a business setting, right? Definitely not something that people like the OP, or many others in the same position, are just ignoring. It's hard, and it's something that a lot of people focus on as their main source of value generation.
Being able to "appear" reliable and capable is business, or at least a component of business. Again, there are large portions of business degrees dedicated to learning how to do that. It's not just something you can expect to be able to do naturally, and these are very valuable skills that engineers typically lack because it's not something typically asked of them.
Because it's hard to know what translates to business value, which, again, is my whole point.
People spend years in expensive schools trying to learn what actions to take which maximize business value. It's not just a matter of checking off some boxes; it takes real analytical skills that depend on one's ability to understand how others interpret their actions, which is hard.
When you're dealing with a very dynamic landscape, especially due to the fact that you're working with people, you're basically just busting your ass to try to nudge the odds in your favor rather than select the correct options at the correct time to handle things perfectly. It's a game of probability more than anything, so it will occur that such people will inevitably make the wrong calls and tell their engineers to work on things that don't end up translating to business value.
In a vacuum, it's management's. But the reality is that it's not a binary decision.
There are plenty of people who accept the role of a pure engineer where they simply do what is told of them. Obviously, as humans in clunky, fuzzy systems, we all have decisions we have to make, but an engineer, in a vacuum, really isn't supposed to make these kinds of decisions. That is the responsibility of management. Again, take a look at the discussions in this sub to see this dynamic play out over and over again.
But, if you strive to want to grow into a position with more responsibility (and, thus, more rewards), you do need to make decisions as a manager because that's effectively what you're trying to be. This relates back to the OP's post: the nebulous notion of "professional maturity" the OP alludes to is the ability to make decisions as a manager rather than just as an engineer. The more you do that, the less engineering you're doing and the more managing you're doing.
With all due respect, I think it is you who has missed the point lol.
I'm not sure what your background is, but if you don't have any formal business education, I'd implore you to pick up one of those HBR guides and see for yourself that what you're describing (e.g., "appearing the part," etc.) is exactly what they focus on. Then take a step back and recognize that something like an MBA program is an entire master's degree dedicated to learning those skills. It's not something that a reply to a post on reddit is going to be able to teach, just the same that browsing reddit is going to make you an engineer.
janyk@reddit
Your previous point to the OP was about contributing to the bottom line, which is completely different from communication skills. Now you're backtracking and claiming you were talking about communication skills the entire time.
You're lying and just trying to sound smart and completely failing. Please stop.
Wide-Pop6050@reddit
HBR also has a good podcast series called "On Leadership" that tackles some of these
codeandtrees@reddit
I am not a therapist/doctor/etc... and there is not medical advice but maybe you could look into adult ADHD and see if there are any parallels between your experiences and some of the commonly listed symptoms. Specifically, getting lost in details & spacing out may be related to motivation mismatches. I am not saying you have ADHD but maybe its worth looking into or some of their coping mechanisms could be useful or eye opening to you.
AntiqueCurtains@reddit
Another vote on this. I had an adult ADHD diagnosis and it was a game changer for me. While no one has given me unprofessional feedback, there is definitely a difference in the manner I communicate that sets me apart (for good and bad) and it's a common mode of communication for people with ADHD. Can see how some might consider unprofessional. I'd recommend checking out /r/adhdwomen (it's one of the better subs) and clicking into a few thread that have titles with keywords that might resonate with you. See does your experience line up with anyone else's. Best of luck OP
gnus-migrate@reddit
Why are those little details important to you? I think that's what you should be asking yourself.
I used to be like this until I really started introspecting about why those details mattered. Was it my ego? Was there a real risk that I was worried about? Was i just bored and bikeshedding?
There's no shame in any of those answers, just be honest with yourself, then what you need to work on would become clear.
acme_restorations@reddit
You should read "Turning Pro" by Tony Kern
donny02@reddit
Crucial conversations book
Consultive selling class
Find someone good at it and ask for advice.
Scarface74@reddit
Record the meeting on your phone and use the transcription feature. You can put the transcriptions into NotebookLM. It can summarize information (with citation) across multiple documents. You can also ask it questions.
Anytime I start a new project I want to know.
From my Amazon indoctrination Working Backwards.
WeNeedYouBuddyGetUp@reddit
Great way to get terminated feeding your company meetings into Google 👍🏻
shinysylver@reddit
Yeah, and recording without consent, even in places where not illegal, would generally be frowned upon.
Scarface74@reddit
We already use GSuite for everything. Google already has all of our IP. Besides I checked, it doesn’t train on your data. There are other alternatives that we also use - Gong. After every meeting with a customer, a transcript is emailed to us with an LLM provided summary and we can ask questions based on the transcript
mikogk@reddit
I would highly recommend some kind of light work/professional coaching. Your company might even offer such a benefit. Betterup is probably the first platform to check out if you’re trying to do this as an individual.
I’ll go out on a limb and say you might be doing better than you think. Have you directly gotten that feedback or is it just some way you think you “should” be behaving? If it’s the latter, acknowledge it’s a good thing that you’ve proactively thinking about how to step up. Now just step it up!
A coach can be very valuable to get that kind of understanding and work with you during a short engagement and help keep you on track. More than one time advice from a random redditor at least.
Aggressive_Ad_5454@reddit
Here's a suggestion.
Teach.
Do lunch'n'learn sessions. Explain stuff to people. Let them ask questions. Your audience will be grateful to be learning stuff, and they will ask questions that will help you refine your understanding of what's obvious, what's trivial, and what's important. And, you'll get lots of practice making yourself clear to other people.
We aren't born knowning how to communicate. We have to learn. You got this.
qpazza@reddit
I run all my communications by my wife or chat gpt. They're both better at sounding more professional than I am. Chat gpt ironically is better at sounding like a human than I am.
69Cobalt@reddit
If you're talking to non or less technical people specifically your #1 thought while you're planning what you want to say and while you're saying it should be "do they care about what I'm saying? If they don't why should they?".
If they don't care and there's no reason they should care (I.e. Technical details) then don't bring it up. If they don't care but there's a reason they should then your job as a professional is to understand their motivations and figure out the intersection of their motivation and your motivation. It's your job to give them a reason to care about what you care about, not give the reason you care about it.
Similarly with meetings you have to do your best to be engaged, but with the subject and with the people. If you take the approach that everyone has something you can learn from and you can take genuine interest in other people you will work with them alot smoother.
That being said if you really try to be deliberate with your communication and still have these hats with no change I'd probably recommend trying therapy. You may have some neuro divergent traits that a therapist would be alot more effective at helping with than a linkedin post on professional communication.
seminole2r@reddit
I have the same problem with being afraid to ask questions because I thought people would think I didn’t spend enough time trying to solve the problem myself. This lead to me going down all sorts of rabbit holes in a complex code base, losing time, and delaying my projects. Because this was seen as low productivity I’m now on a PIP plan. Because I know I’ll be leaving the company soon, I just stopped giving a shit and started firing away with questions. And boy let me tell you, it’s so much easier when you just ask right away. You have to be okay with feeling stupid in order to learn. Asking questions is also part of ownership.
casualfinderbot@reddit
When talking to business people, never ever ever go into technical details unless you absolutely have to. The only case where it’s OK is if you’re getting pressed on something and it’s the only explanation (“why is this taking so long?”)
When talking to business people, talk about behavior only. How does this user flow work? If this happens then should that happen? Stuff like that, where a non programmer knows exactly what you mean all the time
shinysylver@reddit
Take notes, have a script, and practice. When I say have a script, I mean go into a meeting with the main points you want to cover written down and make sure you check these off before the meeting is done. If you have things to follow up on, or don't understand, write them down so you can learn or resolve those items. And finally, make sure you're speaking the same language as your audience. Talking to other developers and engineers is one thing, but if you're talking to sales people and stakeholders who aren't technical folks you can't be talking to them the same way. You are likely in a meeting to provide some kind of input like whether something is technically plausible or suggest alternatives to certain processes due to your knowledge and skills, but don't bash them over the head with it.
Focusing on big picture stuff comes with experience and when you gain more responsibility in an org imo.
salty_cluck@reddit
You seem very self aware or you have just received some performance feedback from a manager. Both are good starting points.
There is a fine line between wondering if your questions sound dumb and being a code monkey that just wants the requirements so you can go back to your desk and get the code done. Don't take this as a bad thing, it means you have something to work on. The code is only part of the job as you know. That you space out during meetings is just hurting yourself. Why do you space out? Why not take notes? Do you have some kind of attention deficit disorder or similar? Have you asked yourself these questions already? That you worry about asking questions at all is normal but it's one of those things that comes with practice. Assuming you gave *some* attention at the meetings, other people likely share your question. Being the one to ask a question puts you ahead in the "trustworthy" column. It means you feel confident enough that you'll put yourself out there. But if you're not even present mentally for the meetings, start small, and start taking notes first.
If you don't care, that's fine too. It just means that you're eventually going to find yourself unable to be promoted and in some cases, not hireable by certain company cultures.
Becoming a thoughtful engineer is what you might be reaching for, not mature, though they can be related. This requires you to care about the thing you're working on and who you're building it for.
Far-Citron-722@reddit
Everyone is different and your definition of what's professional vs mine or someone else's will vary.
May I suggest paying closer attention to how people you consider professional behave at work? When you notice them behave in a manner that makes an impression on you, analyze that interaction in greater depth. What in particular impressed you? How did everyone else respond? What led that professional to behave in that way? Where did they get that type of expertise/attitude/demeanor from?
And as for paying attention in meetings, try discreetly rubbing your earlobes, it stimulates blood flow to the brain and helps you stay alert 💪