First boat: considerations on smaller dingy vs keelboat?
Posted by band-of-horses@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 50 comments
I'm struggling with what direction to go on a boat, wondering if anyone can give some advice based on their ownership experience...
I took my ASA 100 in a J24. It seems like a boat like that could be singlehanded but might be a bit much, but perhaps sailing with only the main or with a self tacking jib could be manageable. However, I also have a vehicle that can only tow 2000 lbs and it seems like a small keelboat will likely be over that. Our local reservoir drains in winter so I'd have to haul from the marina to storage and back.
I've also looked at some smaller boats, like RS Venture, Beneteau First 14, Weta Trimaran, etc. These have some big benefits in that my existing car could tow it, I could store it in my garage, and I could explore different lakes and bays instead of just parking at a marina. However it makes going out sailing somewhat more of an ordeal having to rig things up, and it's not going to be as stable or roomy. Also some of these are not as readily available used and are fairly spendy new whereas 20--30 foot keel boats can be found used for $3k pretty easily.
Some considerations:
- I'm in oregon and will be sailing at a local reservoir with a keel boat, or various lakes and bays in the area with a more portable boat. I will not be doing any ocean sailing.
- I will probably sail solo most of the time, maybe with my dog. Might take a person or two out every now and then.
- I generally prefer easy going relaxing sailing and not getting wet. I'm not interested in racing and don't want to have to worry too much about tipping.
Any advice is appreciated!
ppitm@reddit
Follow the advice from /u/Haunting-Yak-7851. Look beyond Bermuda rig to avoid fiddling with stays and shrouds on the boat ramp.
That bring up the third category: the 'character boat.' Technically in the dinghy class, but handling more like keelboats in terms of stability and comfort, designed for going places rather than ripping back and forth inside the jetty. Many of them can be rowed as well, which is useful in fluky lake breezes.
That said, if I was limited to lake sailing, I would probably opt for an exciting, high performance dingy.
evilted@reddit
Can you think of anything similar to a character boat in the States?
ppitm@reddit
Sure, there are loads of traditional wooden (these days, mostly plywood kits) boats to be found on both coasts.
PossiblyBefuddled@reddit
I'd look at West Wight Potters. They're not fast, but they're supposed to be easy to trailer and set up. Light enough for you to tow. I know someone who went to Catalina Island in one with 4 dogs. There also seems to be a decent amount of resources (check out Potter Yachters.)
No idea what they're selling for these days.
evilted@reddit
Usually a lot (in my opinion). The 15s are less expensive than the 19s though. Their cult status seems to be one of the contributors to price. Really cool boats though.
nylondragon64@reddit
A 16 to 19 foot swing keel boat on a trailer is a good way to go. Casual sailing plus you can have a few friends. A small cabin to keep gear dry. When anchored a tarp over boom to keep you dry if it rains. Go camper sailing.
band-of-horses@reddit (OP)
I've definitely thought of this, seems like a good compromise. Something like a Montgomery 15 or Catalina 16.5 with a swing keel or weighted centerboard could be a nice middle ground. I could keep it at a marina slip but then maybe not absolutely awful to trailer and rig if I wanted to go on a trip to another lake or bay some weekend. I also was looking at the Scamp 12' but have debated if that might be too small but I kinda dig it...
They seem a little more challenging to find though but might be worth a drive to bring something like that home.
nylondragon64@reddit
Don't forget the compac 16. Great boat wide and good amount of room . Small cat boats are great too. Shallow draft with swing keel. Great camper sailors.
band-of-horses@reddit (OP)
Yeah I was just browsing the updated version of that, the ComPac Legacy and honestly it looks fantastic and price is decent even brand new, but I can't find a ton of info or reviews on it other than one reddit comment saying it sails like a brick through oil...
But... it sounds like they've made it VERY easy and quick to rig, at 17' it's usable enough in terms of space, and light enough for my current car to tow.
LateralThinkerer@reddit
This is the answer. The smaller and simpler the boat is, the easier it is to go sailing on a whim and there's a heck of a lot less work involved in launching/stepping the mast etc. I've gone from a cabin boat to a Com-Pac Picnic Cat - 14' gaff rigged dinghy that I leave at the local park marina so I can just go on a whim.
TL;DR Small boats sail more.
Are you near Eugene by any chance? Fern Ridge Reservoir is the only sailing venue in the state I've ever heard of that drains off in winter (though I'm sure there are others).
DowntownClown187@reddit
Where are my fellow sharkies at?!
Icy_Respect_9077@reddit
Sharks are a good, solid boat. I was just out on one last week. We tried spinnaker in a 30 knot wind, and it blew one of the cleats right off the deck. Hilarity ensued.
DowntownClown187@reddit
That's nutty, shouldn't happen unless something else wasn't up to snuff.
🤷♂️
Icy_Respect_9077@reddit
Older boat, stuff happens
DowntownClown187@reddit
Fair! Glad you had a good time.
genericdude999@reddit
Sounds like we're doing the same kind of sailing. One benefit with having a more portable boat is you can shop wind conditions on the day you want to sail. We have reservoirs here where the wind is super mild even when it's almost too sporty elsewhere, and some where the wind can be 50 mph+ when it's just sailable and sporty elsewhere, or fun and sailable when it's dead everywhere else. All within day trip range. Also I think it's less boring not sailing the same lake over and over.
So this is what I did. With four outriggers I'm never close to capsizing, and I carry it on a roof rack. I love not having to tow a trailer! 15'4" so the LWL is decent compared to Hobie Islands etc. That seat cushion was custom ordered to fit the seat so I can sit sideways and hike out. Very comfortable. Much higher and drier than a Sunfish and only weighs 55 lb. I believe my setup time is around 30 minutes. Teardown is faster.
gsasquatch@reddit
Racing gives purpose to sailing. It also gets people to go with you. For that, look to see if there are classes, like a bunch of other boats sailing where you are. I think there might be a J24 fleet in Oregon.
You can rent/borrow a truck for $50 for the twice a year you might need to use it. I use my crew's. I imagine 3/4 of the cars in OR are pickups.
Even if you don't race, or don't intend to initially, fast is fun. Fast boats tend to be setup better for sailing, with more skookum rigging and parts. Faster boats respond nicer, are just nicer to sail.
U20, or similar sport boats might be the ticket. I think the U20 is 1500lbs.
A big cat would be cool. Something in the 18' range. This looks nifty, although, a building project: https://www.sailingcatamarans.com/index.php/designs/27-trimarans-under-25/168-strike-18-55m-trimaran-using-a-16ft-beach-cat-for-hulls-and-rig-p100-mainhull-only-or-p150-including-quattro-16-plans Maybe what you do is buy the donor catamaran, sail it, then decide if you want the increased comfort and stability of the tri, and convert.
Marina near me charges something less than a slip for people to park their catamarans or whatever in their lot, mast up. Then it is just launch and go. That could be a compromise. Quick sailing access for that one spot at a reasonable price but not impossible to take it elsewhere. They call this "dry sailing".
Haunting-Yak-7851@reddit
Sailing doesn’t need a purpose.
gsasquatch@reddit
I find once I master the mechanics of a thing, it starts to get boring if I don't have a purpose. Go out and come back? Where's the challenge? Go somewhere expensively without fuel, or measure my out and back against a clock or another boat, that becomes more interesting.
Beelzabub@reddit
Mine is an old Soling; fast, safe, super easy to singlehandedly, cheap, and durable.
limbmaker88@reddit
I got into a wayfarer last year and it makes a great solo camping rig. Easy to rig, trailer, and single hand. Roomy and built for fun dry ish cruising.
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
A 30’ keel boat for 3k isn’t going to be ready to sail.
You can solo a 30. Bonus with an older boat is if you rub the dock it’s not a big deal. Getting on and off the dock is the hardest part of solo sailing IMHO.
Catalina 30’s have a strong owners group and the issues / repairs are well documented. Because of this it’s a great boat for a beginner.
If your going to be day sailing / bay racing get a race boat.
If you’re interested in weekend and cruising get a 30. You can race it, they don’t do bad corrected but they aren’t lighting fast and don’t point like a pure race boat would.
If you want a 30 in sail way condition I would plan to spend 15k.
Cost of ownership is higher with a boat that lives in’s marina.
Towing and stepping a mast gets old. Most guys in my area dry sail race boats.
At the end of the day you have to decide what you want to do with the boat. Having a boat at the dock makes for easy after work sailing, you can spend the night on it and go to work in the morning if you want.
LameBMX@reddit
for me, the sleep deprivation, general exertion and good hot meals combo are currently way more of a struggle than docking. midship spring to end of dock. fwd and helm to point the bow where you want it. I do ok with lack of sleep and extended physical exertion (yea, I'm still trying to use the winches more, but it's so many extra steps compared to poking into the wind a hair and hauling on the jib sheets), anyways, I do OK with those two if I can crank up the food intake (and coffee, but that's easy).
Plastic_Table_8232@reddit
I would say it’s a function of boat size. More LWL means better sea keeping and less physical exertion when not handling sails but harder on / off the dock.
I’m an all weather sailor but this has been my experience.
30’ is easy off the dock solo. 36 - 38 you can still manage solo but have to work at it, 40’ gets tuff in weather if your not blown on, 45 - 50, is tuff, average marinas get small, and even backing out of the dock - it’s tuff to see if the bowsprit is clear of the dock confidently until you log a lot of time on the boat. 45’ * it’s nice to have at least spotter on the foredeck
Haunting-Yak-7851@reddit
For most of the folks that post here a 25 foot cruiser is a small boat.
You're starting out--don't get a boat that makes you buy a new vehicle to tow it.
You're right on the rigging time. If it takes you an hour to rig, you're not going sailing for three hours. And I'd suggest that whatever time to rig is stated in the marketing brochure, you should add at least 50%.
I would look for a smaller boat, and a bonus if it is a simple rig. I have two 20' boats, neither have standing rigging (the wires/cables that hold the mast up). I can go from trailer to water in about 20 minutes.
Instead of recommending specific boats, let me recommend some websites and groups that have classifieds for you to peruse. There's an awesome world of boats beyond the normal racer/cruiser with a bermuda rig.
Pocket Yachters (PNW)
Small Craft Advisor
Small Boats Monthly
Dinghy Cruising Association
LameBMX@reddit
I could get my southcoasts rig up in 30 mins from exiting truck to getting back in truck to launch.
an hour and a half was the norm though. Who tf wants to run around like a chicken with its head cut off on their day(s) off. and being in a rush to go nowhere at a fast walking pace, just sounds so anti what I enjoy about sailing and being on the water lol.
mr_muffinhead@reddit
I have a small 17 foot pocket cruiser with a swing keel. The great part is even though I can stick it in my driveway, there's a local sailing club on a smallish lake that I joined. A couple hundred bucks a year and a parking space on the grass so I can leave the mast up all year unless I want to take it to a different lake.
I realize this doesn't help you much because it's a big of a unique situation. Great situation for learning on my own though and determining what I want in a boat. I've already decided I'll likely keep something at a club regardless. Having to step the mast every time I want to go out would severely demotivate me.
LameBMX@reddit
dry sailing options are quite common.
KeyGroundbreaking390@reddit
If you have a place where you will be sailing for a season at a time, don't let your vehicle's towing capacity be the limiting factor. I've sailed and loved a 3,750 lb Alberg 23 for 25 years and have hired a guy with a big truck to launch at the start and pull at the end of each season for about $100 a pop.
Playful_Pen_9055@reddit
As someone who competitively races a J24 solo, no, they are not good solo boats. They generally have all the halyards at the mast which means you have to leave the tiller to do anything. They are also fairly powerful for their displacement, making them not steer great with a autopilot in gusty wind. They are fantastic boats to sail when you get it right, but not something I’d recommend for someone new to solo sailing to start with. If you have crew I’d fully recommend the j24 as they are a fantastic compromise between comfort, performance, and cost.
CulpablyRedundant@reddit
You had me until you said comfort. Then I decided you were some sort of poorly programmed J24 Russian troll.
Playful_Pen_9055@reddit
Lol, I said compromise. Just cuz comfort makes up a sliver of the pie chart doesn’t mean it there😅
jchrysostom@reddit
Reasonably comfortable for the person driving. Miserable for everyone else…
Playful_Pen_9055@reddit
Haha, you caught me, I’m the one who drives most of the time. But in all honesty, if all the hardware has been removed from the deck and put on the mast or out of the way it’s not that bad. I was more thinking of the downstairs amenities. Although you don’t get much headroom the berths are decently big. Any boat that has better comfort down below takes pretty large hits to comfort
Gl3g@reddit
You should be considering the boats that are close by-that you can easily inspect super easily. Keeping it in a marina will make things a lot easier on you. Get a date-and just drive out and go. After I quit racing my boat, I rarely sailed it, except to date. (30’ keel boat).
danielt1263@reddit
The biggest mistake you can make is to get a boat that is too old or too big (or both).
A 1980s Catalina 30 cost the same as a new Meglis 15 for example, but you likely would enjoy the latter far more.
Also double check your garage idea, especially the height. The mast cradle likely is much taller the you are expecting.
SailingSpark@reddit
I always recommend an o'day Mariner or Daysailor. 19 feet long, so stable and fast enough to be fun. A pedigreed design, and still stable enough for casual sailing. They also made a ton of them, so they are easy to come by cheaply.
Blarghnog@reddit
Haha, if it were me I would get a hobie. Beachable, easy to bring friends. Easy to tow. Lots of fun in a blow. Easy tramp hangout for inexperienced friends and kids.
PuppyGuts27@reddit
Swing keel boat 16 to 19 foot like a com pac. I have a DS16 enough to camp on, paddle, beach it quick for a pee or break and enough sailing options to keep me learning and best of all it's on a trailer ready for any water
light24bulbs@reddit
You know it sounds like you're just day sailing and lake sailing, I would go to fast dinghy if I were you. Plenty of fun, super cheap, less complexity. Dingies are FUN. I feel like we don't see a ton of dingy posts here but I think that's just because people are out having fun and not having problems.
Much much faster than a boat that is trying to be a trailer sailor cruiser or something.
BlackStumpFarm@reddit
A car with a 2000 pound towing capacity will limit you to a dinghy. If you would like a small keel boat, you need to consider buying a bigger vehicle or hiring someone with a 5000 pound towing capacity truck twice a year to help you tow and set up. Depending on your response to these suggestions, we can maybe offer more specific advice.
band-of-horses@reddit (OP)
Yes, the considerations with a larger boat are getting a vehicle that can tow more, or renting a u-haul pickup twice a year to transport to/from storage.
BlackStumpFarm@reddit
Here’s an option for you, for sale in Oregon. You would need to source a trailer. Over my 67 year sailing career I’ve cruised and raced 14’, 16’, 23’, 25’, 29’, 30’, 42’, 57’. I’m certainly that a Catalina 22 swing keel is the very best option to suit your budget and preferred waters right now.
hmspearl@reddit
Fern Ridge? There is a sailing club there - you might see what types of boats they favor. I had a Weta. It was very comfortable and easy for me to sail. It is NOT a dry boat. But on not really blowing days it can be dry and carry a person or two. Though there are plenty of little 14-19' boats that can easily be less than 2000lbs. I like our Wayfarer but I'm not sure what they have available out there. I would be curious if anyone has every tried a Beneteau 14'.
Efficient_Waltz_8023@reddit
Launch and retrieve every time or slip/mooring? Matters greatly to this decision IMO.
What tickles your fancy? Many ways to go here. Are you strictly solo sailing or will you have company and if so how often? Any racing aspirations?
Rent and or mooch a bit and try different things?
I own J24, have had various day sailors and catamarans. I would not solo on a J24, really a race boat built for crew. Hobie 14 or wave, O’day day sailor, sunfish, Rhodes 19, UFO foiler, laser, etc.
HelicopterUpbeat5199@reddit
We used to sail C15s and they're on the more comfortable side when it comes to dinghies. Something like that, that you can launch easily, is what I would reccomend. Get into sailing slowly.
PiggyMan7@reddit
I bought a j24 in sail-able condition with a trailer for 2.5k and I’m happy with it. Normally I’d say the smaller boat will get you out on the water more but if you have to trailer and step the mast every time it may be the other way around.
I keep my trailer at the marina and dolly it to the crane so I get to keep it mostly rigged up and the mast up, see if there’s any options like that.
I wouldn’t want to solo sail the j24 much, maybe a more manageable boat like a Catalina 22 with a roller furling and lines lead aft to the cockpit.
I’d say get whatever will get you in the water the most/easiest.
Nephroidofdoom@reddit
If a J24 and a Catalina 22 were at opposite ends of the spectrum, a Capri 22, would be right at the midpoint.
MisterMasterCylinder@reddit
My marina allows trailer storage and there's a few people that keep a boat rigged on the trailer there and ramp launch when they want to go out. Still a bigger pain than just leaving a slip, but at least you don't have to deal with rigging and derigging the mast every time.
Mynplus1throwaway@reddit
I recently went from a dolphin 15 senior dingy to a Catalina 22 with the swing keel.
I step the mast and trailer every single time. It sits in my driveway.
I usually don't like to go out for less than 12-48 hours because if this. If you're doing it once or twice a season id say it's a non factor. I can get my mast up alone without too much effort.
The dinghy was fun but taking out my girlfriend was never great on it. I would just make note of the comfort factor listed on sailboat data. A dinghy in the size I had also sucked to take out with any of my friends unless they really knew what they were doing.
All of those boats seem like you would be getting pretty wet if you tried to go fast. But they seem a lot more comfy than what I had.
Any plans to overnight or beach and camp?