TLOU2 should have shattered records. They sold 4 million copies of the game the first week from the legacy of the first game alone. It then took them 2 fucking YEARS to sell 6 million more while having frequent and substantial sales.
The game made money but when I say Druckman lost Sony millions of dollars in POTENTIAL revenue had he just not made his shitty game or if Bruce was still there to filter out all his shitty ideas.
If it takes an average of 5 minutes to buy a copy of the TLOU2 and if people were buying a copy constantly for 4 years than the number is way less then 6 million. Even if the purchases were done by natural causes then the number is vastly overstated.
And the ends of people believing that 6 million copies being purchased used to justify the creation of an independent gaming company that is immune to criticism.
TLOU2 was gonna underperform the first game no matter what you did because it shouldn't have existed. The ending of the first game was so impactful because it was ambiguous, and a sequel would be forced to answer those questions. I think a lot of people recognized that.
TLOU2 easily could've happened. All you have to do is make it an anthology series following other survivors and maybe throw in a cameo of Joel and Ellie.
If the plot had just focused entirely on Abby and her revenge quest against Ellie and Joel it would've worked much better. The plot structure was just weirdly put together and we already knew who Ellie is so we don't need to spend most of the game playing as her.
Yeah forcing players to care for a character the game actively tries to make you hate prior to the 180° was never going to work. A game that forces lessons about "MuH ReveNgE BaD but OnLy WheN yOu, the PLayEr, WanTs it" is only going to annoy people.
I get what they were going for but we ended up with players intentionally getting Abby killed by Ellie just for some semblence of the story they'd actually want.
That'd be dope. Also make Joel's death not so fucking stupid. He's not immortal, so I could absolutely accept him dying, but not him walking into a room full of strangers and saying his full name aloud.
Except he didn't. Tommy was the one who introduced them by saying their first names. They had also been living a peaceful life for about 6 years in jackson, regularly trading with travelers. There was no reason for them to suspect otherwise, and especially with an angry horde of infected outside, you might as exchange courtesy to the people your stuck with.
The old joel wouldve left abby for dead in that ski resort.
That story plot is precisely the reason why Bruce is needed to counter Neil's shitty ideas. Neil wanted to create a similar revenge story in TLOU1, Bruce told him to shove the idea up his ass coz it makes 0 sense in a post apocalyptic game where ppl are struggling to survive.
If TLOU1 is about someone going on her revenge fantasy, Neil won't be given a chance in hell to make a sequel coz it would have sold like shit.
The revenge angle works well for a sequel though. If the game is an exploration about us as people making the protagonist of the sequel the daughter of the man Joel killed in the first game for his own selfish reason is just good drama. Joel killed a father who was going to kill his "daughter" and now the daughter of that father is out for revenge.
It clearly doesn't coz this setting is post apocalyptic. Suffering and death is the norm, revenge is a luxury when you are worrying if you are able to survive the next day from zombies, diseases, enemy factions, hunger, natural elements, etc. Abby isn't fking special for losing her father in that shitty world.
This angle has such heavy ludo narrative dissonance when you slaughter an army of people playing as both Ellie and Abby in the game. What is next? Do we play the next game and we play a character related to someone whom Abby/Ellie killed? It is just good drama by your logic right?
Or is Abby/Ellie the super special snowflakes that is ok to risk their friends and families lives for the sake of revenge in a post apocalyptic world where everybody and thing wants them dead.
It clearly doesn't coz this setting is post apocalyptic. Suffering and death is the norm, revenge is a luxury when you are worrying if you are able to survive the next day from zombies, diseases, enemy factions, hunger, natural elements, etc. Abby isn't fking special for losing her father in that shitty world.
The focus of the story is on the characters living in the world, not the world itself. The setting is there for hurdles, tension, and tests of character. Abby is special for the simple fact that she's a protagonist and the story would be pretty boring if she was just forced to accept her fathers murder and go around collecting scrap metal until accidentally dying of tetanus.
This angle has such heavy ludo narrative dissonance when you slaughter an army of people playing as both Ellie and Abby in the game. What is next? Do we play the next game and we play a character related to someone whom Abby/Ellie killed? It is just good drama by your logic right?
Ludo narrative dissonance is a valid complaint of these cinematic styles of game. To the point that a subversion is considered novel like the twist in Spec Ops: The Line where the normal John Action Man game play is met with abhorrence at the end. You're expected to suspend your disbelief for the sake of the overall narrative. Whether you think a particular game did it well enough or not is down to taste. If it makes you feel better you can melodrama instead as most revenge stories are.
Or is Abby/Ellie the super special snowflakes that is ok to risk their friends and families lives for the sake of revenge in a post apocalyptic world where everybody and thing wants them dead.
No that's literally the moral of every revenge story. Pursing revenge will cost you everything. Both Abby and Ellie have people they lose and get killed for their choices.
The focus of the story is on the characters living in the world, not the world itself. The setting is there for hurdles, tension, and tests of character.
True, but if the world bends to characters, it will make 0 fking sense. Joel just so happens to save Abby and gang in the right place and time. Joel just so happens to tell strangers he met who he is. Everybody in Abby's crew is willing to go on a 70+km journey by foot in winter while fighting off zombies just to kill Joel based on a personal vendetta. Also, let's not get me started on how bloody Abby and Ellie are so lucky to survive a ton of injuries and death defying events throughout their journey.
Abby is special for the simple fact that she's a protagonist and the story would be pretty boring if she was just forced to accept her fathers murder and go around collecting scrap metal until accidentally dying of tetanus.
It would be 100x more interesting to learn about Abby the scrap collector trying to survive in a post apocalyptic world than someone's revenge fantasy. Coz at least it seems more human and relatable than Neil trying his damnest for us to sympathise with an absolute psychopath who value her own wants over others needs.
Suspend your disbelief...down to taste.
TLOU2 is a narrative heavy game, Spec Ops is a narrative heavy game, it's gameplay needs to be in service of the story. The former did it horribly and the latter did masterfully. You don't kill an army of grunts and FORMER COMRADES and then come and tell me that rEvEnGe iS tHe bAD.
Pursuing revenge will cost you everything
It clearly didn't for Abby. Abby stabbing her former comrades in the back for lev is the reason why she lost everything. So even the revenge is the bad narrative that falls completely on its face.
But that destroys the girl boss fantasy. Look at my copy and paste female hero who’s better than the original protagonist. Don’t like her too bad she’s the main character now.
I agree with that, there was a lot more potential, but Sony sucks and its ran by morons who hire creatively bankrupt hacks and Druckmann is their best hack. TLOU as a franchise has been a crown jewel for Sony cause they have so few exclusives, its amazing how they’ve managed to milk that cow.
Meanwhile they refuse to revitalize older franchises that people love and they have nothing interesting in the works. Just more crappy remakes and remasters.
The Last of Us 1 and 2, Uncharted 1 and 2, and some of the Jack and Daxter games. A lot of people are pissed because of how bad The Last of Us 2 hit, and I’m on that train. Thought the narrative was a slog.
Let’s not forget he wasn’t the sole writer for most of these games, in fact I believe The Last of Us 2 was the only one where he had full creative control by going solo.
The director of Uncharted 1 to 3 said she wanted to work for Naughty Dog because they were the best and she left before The last of us 2 because they were no longer the best, if that doesn’t raise red flags, I don’t know what does.
You’re absolutely right. Dude needs somebody to rein him in some. I don’t think he’s terrible at what he does by any means, but he definitely isn’t the guy to leave all of the creative freedoms to.
Good to know, I can safely ignore his slop then. I hope he hires Sweet Baby Inc and puts so much social engineering in it it flops. We coomers are a silent, powerful market force.
Before people of the other sub screenshot this, add me to the screenshot please. And a reminder that the shitty plot of TLOU2 was inspired by Niel Druckmans deep hatred for Palestinians(and that's just that parts he admitted). Also when likes on Twitter we're still public, he was liking posts from accounts that regularly post Israel propaganda.
That's just the shit he admitted. He also doesn't take into account what Israel did and still does. He still stands with them and supports the propaganda so I don't believe he has changed.
But as I said in my last comment, he had an agenda the entire point of this shitty game was for you to feel that feeling he felt. He wanted you to hate Abby and then see her POV and understand her. He sacrificed pacing and cohesive writing all to service this stupid ass idea he got when he was 20. The game is written the way that it is because any other way would ruin the plot twist which is the entire point of this game.
Main point, he came up with this garbage story and then inserted Ellie and Joel into it. Making a shitty sequel to a game that should never had had one.
Bro, love how people say outrageous statements about what some one ‘has said’ only to find out they said absolutely nothing even close.. just because he is Jewish does not mean he hate’s Palestinian you fucking mogg
Yeah that's why the woke crowd went from cheerleading for him to despising him.
If anything he's kinda politically homeless now since I doubt the typical gaming conservative is going to rally around his games since "owning the chuds" was an obvious goal for TLOU II.
He was squarely in the woke camp until they started attacking something he was conservative about (Israel) and the conservatives who wouldn't have cared about his video game politics are obviously the same ones who wouldn't have bought them anyways so he's kinda fucked.
Deimos_Aeternum@reddit
Everystein. Singleberg. Timeowitz.
RelentlessBandit@reddit
That's it g0y, you're outta control!
Deimos_Aeternum@reddit
Please, don't take my foreskin
Bobthemurderer@reddit
Your crimes are so heinous, they're going to take your fiveskin.
A_for_Anonymous@reddit
Now lay here on this mattress
Mammoth_Juice_6969@reddit
OY VEY
ihaveahugedong69420@reddit
I’ve a riddle for you that will boggle your mind
Who’s worn out their welcome times a hundred and nine?
Just like me Batman, they’re known for their pranks
They call you “oppressor” but own all the banks.
Puzzleheaded-Bag9088@reddit
Too late g0y1m, I've already ordered another 6 million Palestinians into your country. Have fun you g0y!
reddit_has_fallenoff@reddit
Basedman
Blightsun@reddit
Kek
droogvertical@reddit
Fail upward? I don’t like his games very much but you cannot deny that he’s earned a lot of $$$ for Playstation.
jayvancealot@reddit
TLOU2 should have shattered records. They sold 4 million copies of the game the first week from the legacy of the first game alone. It then took them 2 fucking YEARS to sell 6 million more while having frequent and substantial sales.
The game made money but when I say Druckman lost Sony millions of dollars in POTENTIAL revenue had he just not made his shitty game or if Bruce was still there to filter out all his shitty ideas.
WaftyGrowl3r@reddit
6 million seems like a bit of an overestimation.
Otherwise_Agency6102@reddit
If it takes an average of 5 minutes to buy a copy of the TLOU2 and if people were buying a copy constantly for 4 years than the number is way less then 6 million. Even if the purchases were done by natural causes then the number is vastly overstated.
throwout176@reddit
Don't forget to factor in the mass dumpsters of people throwing away their copies of the game.
Otherwise_Agency6102@reddit
And the ends of people believing that 6 million copies being purchased used to justify the creation of an independent gaming company that is immune to criticism.
Lucroq@reddit
No, you see we need that gaming company as a bulwark against our competitors in the market who are creating games in the same creative area.
apirateship@reddit
The math doesn't add up
TurtleStepper@reddit
You have been banned for anti-semitism.
AgentSkidMarks@reddit
TLOU2 was gonna underperform the first game no matter what you did because it shouldn't have existed. The ending of the first game was so impactful because it was ambiguous, and a sequel would be forced to answer those questions. I think a lot of people recognized that.
BotAccount2849@reddit
TLOU2 easily could've happened. All you have to do is make it an anthology series following other survivors and maybe throw in a cameo of Joel and Ellie.
yan-booyan@reddit
So do it.
BotAccount2849@reddit
Do I look like I work at Naughty Dog?
the_marxman@reddit
If the plot had just focused entirely on Abby and her revenge quest against Ellie and Joel it would've worked much better. The plot structure was just weirdly put together and we already knew who Ellie is so we don't need to spend most of the game playing as her.
Timpstar@reddit
Yeah forcing players to care for a character the game actively tries to make you hate prior to the 180° was never going to work. A game that forces lessons about "MuH ReveNgE BaD but OnLy WheN yOu, the PLayEr, WanTs it" is only going to annoy people.
I get what they were going for but we ended up with players intentionally getting Abby killed by Ellie just for some semblence of the story they'd actually want.
Triplebizzle87@reddit
That'd be dope. Also make Joel's death not so fucking stupid. He's not immortal, so I could absolutely accept him dying, but not him walking into a room full of strangers and saying his full name aloud.
MalevolentDisciple@reddit
Except he didn't. Tommy was the one who introduced them by saying their first names. They had also been living a peaceful life for about 6 years in jackson, regularly trading with travelers. There was no reason for them to suspect otherwise, and especially with an angry horde of infected outside, you might as exchange courtesy to the people your stuck with.
The old joel wouldve left abby for dead in that ski resort.
Ihatememorising@reddit
That story plot is precisely the reason why Bruce is needed to counter Neil's shitty ideas. Neil wanted to create a similar revenge story in TLOU1, Bruce told him to shove the idea up his ass coz it makes 0 sense in a post apocalyptic game where ppl are struggling to survive.
If TLOU1 is about someone going on her revenge fantasy, Neil won't be given a chance in hell to make a sequel coz it would have sold like shit.
the_marxman@reddit
The revenge angle works well for a sequel though. If the game is an exploration about us as people making the protagonist of the sequel the daughter of the man Joel killed in the first game for his own selfish reason is just good drama. Joel killed a father who was going to kill his "daughter" and now the daughter of that father is out for revenge.
Ihatememorising@reddit
It clearly doesn't coz this setting is post apocalyptic. Suffering and death is the norm, revenge is a luxury when you are worrying if you are able to survive the next day from zombies, diseases, enemy factions, hunger, natural elements, etc. Abby isn't fking special for losing her father in that shitty world.
This angle has such heavy ludo narrative dissonance when you slaughter an army of people playing as both Ellie and Abby in the game. What is next? Do we play the next game and we play a character related to someone whom Abby/Ellie killed? It is just good drama by your logic right?
Or is Abby/Ellie the super special snowflakes that is ok to risk their friends and families lives for the sake of revenge in a post apocalyptic world where everybody and thing wants them dead.
the_marxman@reddit
The focus of the story is on the characters living in the world, not the world itself. The setting is there for hurdles, tension, and tests of character. Abby is special for the simple fact that she's a protagonist and the story would be pretty boring if she was just forced to accept her fathers murder and go around collecting scrap metal until accidentally dying of tetanus.
Ludo narrative dissonance is a valid complaint of these cinematic styles of game. To the point that a subversion is considered novel like the twist in Spec Ops: The Line where the normal John Action Man game play is met with abhorrence at the end. You're expected to suspend your disbelief for the sake of the overall narrative. Whether you think a particular game did it well enough or not is down to taste. If it makes you feel better you can melodrama instead as most revenge stories are.
No that's literally the moral of every revenge story. Pursing revenge will cost you everything. Both Abby and Ellie have people they lose and get killed for their choices.
Ihatememorising@reddit
True, but if the world bends to characters, it will make 0 fking sense. Joel just so happens to save Abby and gang in the right place and time. Joel just so happens to tell strangers he met who he is. Everybody in Abby's crew is willing to go on a 70+km journey by foot in winter while fighting off zombies just to kill Joel based on a personal vendetta. Also, let's not get me started on how bloody Abby and Ellie are so lucky to survive a ton of injuries and death defying events throughout their journey.
It would be 100x more interesting to learn about Abby the scrap collector trying to survive in a post apocalyptic world than someone's revenge fantasy. Coz at least it seems more human and relatable than Neil trying his damnest for us to sympathise with an absolute psychopath who value her own wants over others needs.
TLOU2 is a narrative heavy game, Spec Ops is a narrative heavy game, it's gameplay needs to be in service of the story. The former did it horribly and the latter did masterfully. You don't kill an army of grunts and FORMER COMRADES and then come and tell me that rEvEnGe iS tHe bAD.
It clearly didn't for Abby. Abby stabbing her former comrades in the back for lev is the reason why she lost everything. So even the revenge is the bad narrative that falls completely on its face.
AgentSkidMarks@reddit
I'm down with that, other than the Joel and Ellie cameo. Cut that out entirely and give us a new story. I'd support that 100%.
Coronabandito@reddit
But that destroys the girl boss fantasy. Look at my copy and paste female hero who’s better than the original protagonist. Don’t like her too bad she’s the main character now.
ReallyDumbRedditor@reddit
A sequel where Joel and Ellie save the world would've been fine.
Balthazar3000@reddit
The good timeline
Existing-Help-3187@reddit
Google says it sold 10m total.
facecampalltheway@reddit
What's 6 + 4?
StephenRodgers@reddit
21
Paradox@reddit
You stupid
Jaruut@reddit
64
SlowTortoise69@reddit
Akshually, I am a moron and can't do simple arithmetic.
jayvancealot@reddit
Yeah 4 million at launch, then another 6 million after 2 years. It was in 2022 when they announced they reached 10 million.
LimpMinded@reddit
That's what he said numb-nuts
droogvertical@reddit
I agree with that, there was a lot more potential, but Sony sucks and its ran by morons who hire creatively bankrupt hacks and Druckmann is their best hack. TLOU as a franchise has been a crown jewel for Sony cause they have so few exclusives, its amazing how they’ve managed to milk that cow.
Meanwhile they refuse to revitalize older franchises that people love and they have nothing interesting in the works. Just more crappy remakes and remasters.
Sage296@reddit
Fall
PlantationMint@reddit
I don't like his games, so he is a FAILURE - anon probably
MausBomb@reddit
Other than The Last of Us II most of the games he made were both financially successful and popular with fans.
Mohwi@reddit
Well well well
Frank_the_tank55@reddit
“it’s the Torah“
throwout176@reddit
Just don't try to shoot it.
Neither_Notice_3097@reddit
“My people used to pray here”
p4th_m4k3r@reddit
What video game atrocity was he in charge of again? Fallout? Far Cry? Backpacking simulator: Japanese edition?
Temelios@reddit
The Last of Us 1 and 2, Uncharted 1 and 2, and some of the Jack and Daxter games. A lot of people are pissed because of how bad The Last of Us 2 hit, and I’m on that train. Thought the narrative was a slog.
EH042@reddit
Let’s not forget he wasn’t the sole writer for most of these games, in fact I believe The Last of Us 2 was the only one where he had full creative control by going solo.
The director of Uncharted 1 to 3 said she wanted to work for Naughty Dog because they were the best and she left before The last of us 2 because they were no longer the best, if that doesn’t raise red flags, I don’t know what does.
Temelios@reddit
You’re absolutely right. Dude needs somebody to rein him in some. I don’t think he’s terrible at what he does by any means, but he definitely isn’t the guy to leave all of the creative freedoms to.
p4th_m4k3r@reddit
Ahhh, man, I was pretty much right. I was thinking of TLOU and Unchartered when typing those names. Well, games are shit, what are you gonna do.
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Fall?
I mean, there are certainly good examples of people falling/failing upwards, but Druckmann ain't it.
Extremelysolid8492@reddit
You haven't played Last of us2
Mitche420@reddit
Literally the greatest game ever made but go off king
Extremelysolid8492@reddit
What game? it is movie because how little impact gameplay has
Sage296@reddit
It wasn’t a bad game
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
I haven't. But yet the game was highly critically acclaimed despite being controversial with fans, and far more importantly, sold a morbillion copies.
So no, he isn't failing upwards.
Free-Design-8329@reddit
That’s what companies care about right? Acclaim
And by acclaim i mean a bunch of journos getting under the table benefits to act like the game is 9/10 and a return to form
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
Nope, companies care about dollars.
Druckmann made a lot of those.
vmpafq@reddit
People were gonna buy it anyways because of the name recognition. It was terrible
Extremelysolid8492@reddit
Cod also selling well but that doesn't mean it is good
MalekithofAngmar@reddit
We would also not say that COD is "failing". We would just say that it's a mass produced cash-grab. Low quality, but successful.
AgentSkidMarks@reddit
From his wikipedia:
I feel like there's a TLOU2 joke in there somewhere
Deimos_Aeternum@reddit
That actually explains a lot
iHateReddit_srsly@reddit
This actually happened to him after that game came out. He was attacked by a fan who was unhappy with the game.
cosplay-degenerate@reddit
Lol nice try. It was an accident. His friend did it when he was 16 and required 30 stitches.
IFuckSlow@reddit
Ah, so his friend could tell he had a thing for muscle girls and was trying to mercy kill him.
cosplay-degenerate@reddit
We can only speculate.
Chimney-Imp@reddit
Bro is Andrew Ryan
AnotherScoutTrooper@reddit
Joel was a self insert the whole time!
ReallyDumbRedditor@reddit
it was before he even worked on TLOU1 though
AgentSkidMarks@reddit
In TLOU2, Joel gets beat to death with a golf club
Sledgecrowbar@reddit
Good they got away with it then.
Jack-of-Hearts-7@reddit
Holy fuck lmao
AvgBeautyEnjoyer@reddit
No early life nessecary
Zee_Fake_Panda@reddit
Oh vey
Jorah_The_Explorah_@reddit
Be creative director at company
have creative control over new product
shocking
themastersmb@reddit
Better hope that new law goes into effect that makes it illegal to point out things, especially a pattern of things.
A_for_Anonymous@reddit
The Coincidence Act
Total_Network6312@reddit
A_for_Anonymous@reddit
Good to know, I can safely ignore his slop then. I hope he hires Sweet Baby Inc and puts so much social engineering in it it flops. We coomers are a silent, powerful market force.
Neither_Notice_3097@reddit
First thing I looked up lol
jayvancealot@reddit
Before people of the other sub screenshot this, add me to the screenshot please. And a reminder that the shitty plot of TLOU2 was inspired by Niel Druckmans deep hatred for Palestinians(and that's just that parts he admitted). Also when likes on Twitter we're still public, he was liking posts from accounts that regularly post Israel propaganda.
Interesting_Bat243@reddit
link?
jayvancealot@reddit
https://imgur.com/neil-druckmann-explains-his-inspiration-writing-tlou2-washington-post-article-HgMvH8G
You can find the full article on Washington Post.
He wanted to tell this shitty story and decided to use TLOU(which didn't need a sequel) to tell it.
1234_Okay@reddit
The whole point he is trying to make is that his initial gut reaction to the brutality done to his people was wrong, and gross.
jayvancealot@reddit
That's just the shit he admitted. He also doesn't take into account what Israel did and still does. He still stands with them and supports the propaganda so I don't believe he has changed.
But as I said in my last comment, he had an agenda the entire point of this shitty game was for you to feel that feeling he felt. He wanted you to hate Abby and then see her POV and understand her. He sacrificed pacing and cohesive writing all to service this stupid ass idea he got when he was 20. The game is written the way that it is because any other way would ruin the plot twist which is the entire point of this game.
Main point, he came up with this garbage story and then inserted Ellie and Joel into it. Making a shitty sequel to a game that should never had had one.
Valuable-Drummer6604@reddit
Bro, love how people say outrageous statements about what some one ‘has said’ only to find out they said absolutely nothing even close.. just because he is Jewish does not mean he hate’s Palestinian you fucking mogg
regman231@reddit
Had had
yan-booyan@reddit
Man, i love Naughty even more now. What an awesome dude.
MausBomb@reddit
Yeah that's why the woke crowd went from cheerleading for him to despising him.
If anything he's kinda politically homeless now since I doubt the typical gaming conservative is going to rally around his games since "owning the chuds" was an obvious goal for TLOU II.
He was squarely in the woke camp until they started attacking something he was conservative about (Israel) and the conservatives who wouldn't have cared about his video game politics are obviously the same ones who wouldn't have bought them anyways so he's kinda fucked.
Free-Design-8329@reddit
I love to hear good news in the world
Crispicoom@reddit
Erm, based alert?
TJLaserShepard@reddit
I cant wait to have expectations subverted
Sensitive_Potato_775@reddit
"Druckmann" is German for "pressure man". Most Jewish names sound pretty funny when translated from German.
ApprehensiveBat4732@reddit
Does it included more muscle mommy porn
Sledgecrowbar@reddit
I bet this guy just loops the scene when Nick Offerman parts the crusty rats nest of butt hair with his dong.
sirhappynuggets@reddit
You’re just not the target audience anymore I guess
Skyp_Intro@reddit
Because they suck harder than gravity pulls.
_Rook_Castle@reddit
Dudes too late, Cuck Simulator is already a thing.
throwawaypartypost@reddit
Train tycoon