When people ask me where I want my career to go, I have no idea
Posted by InfiniteJackfruit5@reddit | ExperiencedDevs | View on Reddit | 84 comments
Any of you in the same boat where you're just kind of floating along with no specific target of where you want your career to go?
I don't want to be a manager, hate being a tech lead... I just want to do my job and "go home".
ginamegi@reddit
Yeah same, my goal is to be out of tech in the next 10 years and be able to work somewhere that I’m more passionate about despite potentially less pay. Maybe outdoors industry or something else local and more community driven.
I think that’s a normal feeling?
Designer_Holiday3284@reddit
The worst part of programming is dealing with the all so noticeable corporate and its people bs.
gomihako_@reddit
That's like every industry though
mcmaster-99@reddit
I’ve been very passionate about tech and all but the more I stay, the more I find myself losing that passion for many reasons. I’m afraid of making the switch to something else down the road and also losing the passion for it too.
ginamegi@reddit
I wouldn’t want to ruin a hobby by trying to make a career of it, so I agree with you in that way, but I also believe work doesn’t have to be a boring slog your whole life. I think it’s possible to be passionate about your career and whatever mission is behind it. Software does NOT do that for me lol, but it does pay well…
LittleLordFuckleroy1@reddit
Tbh this is most people in most jobs. Having the luxury of pursuing something that you genuinely care about requires either luck or privilege. And working a SWE job for a decade can buy you the privilege.
LittleLordFuckleroy1@reddit
Tbh the key is to make enough money in software to where it doesn’t matter if you fizzle out on the next thing. Get the f-u money, and you can explore.
huge-centipede@reddit
I find it hard to stay motivated/enthusiastic in much of the tech industry considering how the majority of big tech money consists of side-stepping well established industry regulations to give profit to Stanford grads (airbnb/uber/crypto), make our lives actively worse through cruel algorithms and addictive behavior (phone games/social media corp), or just straight harvesting private data to sell garbage to you (amazon/google).
SmartassRemarks@reddit
I stick to enterprise tech (databases, etc) for similar reasons you expressed
jonathon8903@reddit
I think about this often. In high school, I was so excited to get into software development. Now that I'm just about 4 years into it, I'm already ready to find a way to make just enough money to allow me to work on hobbies. I am at the point now where I feel like I could lose a significant amount of salary, go down to working 2-3 days a week, and still be happy.
JeffMurdock_@reddit
Programmer to farmer pipeline going strong.
alaksion@reddit
I’m a proud “get my tickets done and go home” engineer. Until last year I was really grinding promotions and things like that, then I realized it doesn’t matter. Want a raise? Change jobs and that’s it, no need to stress myself about promos and lose precious time I could spend with friends, gf, gaming, etc
bedake@reddit
I hate how companies will try to bait you with promises of a promotion but to get it they want you to perform at the next level for an unknown amount of time to prove you can handle it but without the pay. Fuck that, I don't play those games. Either promote me or pay me, or I'm going to throttle my effort to match my role and compensation.
LittleLordFuckleroy1@reddit
That’s a fine perspective, but there will be folks with more ambition who are willing to show that they are capable of operating at the next level. Companies will choose that over a “hope” 9 times out of 10.
alaksion@reddit
Sure, grinding is a choice, for some people it’s worth and for others don’t. I’m fine with a senior position and I don’t want to move forward (tech lead, management, staff dev) as long I’m making decent money
Mabenue@reddit
There needs to be some sort of balance. It’s fine when a manager in a 1:1 sets this a personal goal for you to demonstrate suitability for a promotion over a clear timeframe. It’s not cool if this the mantra for the organization and sets unclear expectations for everyone.
Neat_Arm_8072@reddit
This!
johny2nd@reddit
Exactly, you expressed my latest experience and I also ended up with the same resolution. Now it's about doing ok job and preparing for interviews in the future.
alaksion@reddit
Exactly
overweighttardigrade@reddit
It really is all about your values, there's opportunities to work on your values during work but it mostly happens outside of work
SpudroSpaerde@reddit
Senior developer is the final destination for the majority of careers within development so I don't see the issue.
CoroteDeMelancia@reddit
Do true seniors know a bit of everything and can handle themselves well enough in any situation?
SpudroSpaerde@reddit
True seniors sounds like a "no true scotsman"-fallacy in the making. I think it depends entirely on what industry you work in. Certain industries have highly specialized senior developers that would not do well outside of their specific niche.
CoroteDeMelancia@reddit
Like an AI engineer, I guess. While a senior fullstack dev probably learned many different things in his career. I'm currently a junior fullstack at a startup and I already see myself learning Data Engineering, DevOps, QA, and a ton of other things.
kingmotley@reddit
Yes.
zerocoldx911@reddit
Some companies have a culture of move up or out so I guess staff or manager
LittleLordFuckleroy1@reddit
Senior is a terminal role in many companies. There’s simply not enough spots above senior to realistically expect upward movement, and your senior folks are often your most productive. So “out” isn’t incentivized. That’s what makes it a terminal role.
In other companies, “staff” actually means “senior” as described above. But same thing.
UK-sHaDoW@reddit
A lot of companies will simply get rid of you, because they don't expect to keep everyone. They only want to consider keeping who they consider the best long term.
thekwoka@reddit
Yup, there is that whole "people rise to their level of incompetence."
And no it doesn't mean "incompetent people get promoted a bunch".
It means most people get promoted and promoted until they're no longer good at their jobs.
Like dev becomes dev lead becomes manager, etc.
You're good at being a "do what you're told dev" so they make you a "tell other devs what to do as well", and maybe you're good at that, so then they make it "manage the project and developers" but now you're not so good at that.
So now you don't get promoted anymore. You stay where you hit a job you're not good at.
I think there should be more allowance in companies (and people) to allow people to be good in their spot and still have some amount of progression.
deefstes@reddit
This is the correct answer. Even within the role of Senior Software Engineer there is ample opportunity for lifelong growth.
Prioritise growth, not promotions.
potatolicious@reddit
Yep. So long as your company considers your level to be terminal anyway, then you can ride that for as long as you want.
As a manager it's also fine by me - in fact maybe preferable, since I can better allocate opportunities for folks who do want to keep moving up.
Also, this isn't a one-way door. I coasted as a senior dev for a while, just being content making stuff. Then the right opportunity came up that made me want to go for the next level and I kept advancing. None of this needs to be permanent.
bedake@reddit
Even then, most companies can't have/afford a team of only seniors... Which means they only promote you to senior when there is a gap and they need someone to step up to the role... What this means is that you can have a whole bunch of mid levels capable of being senior where they keep leading you on, asking you to perform at senior level to get that promotion they can't offer you yet...
I'm in this place right now, company can't promote me, I know they can't, but I still have to pretend like I want to impress them. Honestly I don't care, I'm happy with my role and pay, Ill just sit at mid level
z436037@reddit
Exactly this... I got here a long time ago, I love it, now leave me TF alone!
d33pnull@reddit
yeah same! All I wanted was to get my senior engineer title, leave me alone
soundman32@reddit
I used to tell them that I wanted their job. Then when I realised what they did, I decided I didn't. Still, it's a good answer in an interview situation.
met0xff@reddit
Is it? I am completely blunt here but with many CVs I see in the current flood of great applicants I am worried that some of them will take the team lead from me ;)
soundman32@reddit
To be blunt, you need to up your game, accept a demotion, or move into management. It's not hard to keep on top of the latest tech, especially if you have a great employer who has training budgets. Even watching a few YouTube videos before you sleep at night is better than 90% of devs out there.
met0xff@reddit
Ah believe me, there's no weekend I don't do anything and am on topic almost all my wake time but that's not what makes you lead a team or not.
If I hire someone for my team who previously led dozens of teams at high profile companies vs me who's been freelancing and startups all my life until we were acquired... and even worse, isn't in such a remote timezone but some other California boy going to lunch with the CEO then I see a threat there. And I don't have someone take over what I've been building up over the last decade... I'm off if that happens and they put some Stanford boy in front of me. And that's what I am seeing at the moment. We don't get the applicants you can easily outwork. Last weeks I've been interviewing a Princeton Maths PhD with decades of experience and currently leads a team at Intel, a Harvard PhD who's at CERN rn, a ByteDance lead who worked on insane scale projects.
Well but then, my managers rejected all of them no matter the credentials and last year it actually happened that they put me and my team below some theoretically more experienced manager from well-known companies. Suddenly we had at least 6 hours of team meetings every week and processes that don't fit a small team, nothing got done in 6 months. Then management dumped him and put me in place again. I am not letting this happen again.
But even if I am not getting replaced, it doesn't help the team if we hire someone with lead aspirations that won't happen in the next years. We've always been a small specialized team and that won't change anytime soon. I need someone who clearly wants to be an IC.
z436037@reddit
I hate the question too, but I don't like how people react to it.
My answer is that I'm a software developer, I'm good at it, I love it, and I want to keep doing it forever. I'm not interested in any kind of promotion. I feel that I'm doing the job I was born to do.
The reaction is usually something like: "What? Do you don't to become like us (management)?". The answer to that (that I've avoided blurting out) is... FSCK NO! #ItsNotTheWinYouThinkItIs #GetOffMyLawn
LittleLordFuckleroy1@reddit
There are a ton of tech companies where this is completely accepted culturally. Usually the software-first ones. Just FYI.
space-to-bakersfield@reddit
It's weird they're so scandalized by this when, even if you do want the promotions, they're so stingy with handing it out to the point where you're better off jumping somewhere else to get one.
InfiniteJackfruit5@reddit (OP)
This is me exactly and I’ve had that same response. Folks thinking I can’t get much older (not even 40 yet) and stay in the coding side of things without getting “aged out”
z436037@reddit
I'm 54... I'm not slowing down AT ALL!
LittleLordFuckleroy1@reddit
Software is one of the few fields where you can just… do what you’re saying, and retire very comfortably.
There’s nothing wrong with it. Do good work, work in interesting companies, make good money.
When you’ve got enough to retire, either retire and do whatever you want, or if you like what you’re doing just keep doing it til you don’t anymore.
It’s ok.
Atagor@reddit
I feel you
There's a tendency to believe that every person seeks for a role shift further
But frankly, it's not the case. Especially taking into account that a lot of higher roles are not about skills but about how well you play politics. It's fun first 10 years, but then.. I dunno, you shut up ego, start counting time/money ratio and go home at 5pm without giving a fuck. It's not about being irresponsible, no. It's about boundaries . Because in the very end, does a company care about an employee during lay off? No. It's a business
jirocket@reddit
Senior+ plus here and I have one more promotion grind left in me. If I could get a 15-20% raise and still work 40hrs/week that'd be the dream. Tricky thing is I'm already a lead so I need to figure out how without the additional responsibility
Comprehensive-Pea812@reddit
Most companies need 2 types of employees anyway, one that go up career ladder in the company or hop to another, and other type that keep the business running by doing business as usual.
netderper@reddit
Financial Independent, Early (partial retirement), Part-time consulting. If this doesn't fit in, I don't care. I could retire tomorrow.
fischerandchips@reddit
how do you find clients for part time consulting?
i'm getting laid off soon. unfortunately i'm around the 6% SWR. i dont need a job ASAP, but i'm going to need one. i like the idea of getting a 6 month job for the summers or something like that, but i've been at the same job for 10+ years and don't know how to find new ones easily.
netderper@reddit
Mostly word of mouth. One contacted me since they knew me from a former employer. Another was referred to me by a former coworker. My SWR is super low (under 3%) so I'm not super worried about income, but I do need something to keep me busy when I finally quit. I'm working on some SaaS / startup ideas but they are slow going...
phonyfakeorreal@reddit
You don’t have to be a manager, you can perfect your craft as an individual contributor and that’s perfectly fine.
koreth@reddit
I've come to believe that career goals, especially long-term ones, are a net negative for a lot of people in our line of work. I'm sure they're great for some people, but just look at the number of posts in this subreddit from people stressing out over "I should have 'senior' in my job title by now, am I a failure?" and "I want to be a staff engineer in five years, and also, can someone tell me what a 'staff engineer' is?" and "I need to be promoted to management to progress my career, but I hate managing, help plz." Concrete career goals seem to be a source of misery, not of inspiration, in a lot of cases.
Setting career goals and seeking promotions is partly about money, which is fair enough. We all like to get paid. But there seems to be more to it than that: a lot of people, like the ones asking OP this question, seem to have been sold on the idea that they're required to set concrete goals stretching out years or decades simply because that's what one does, not because it's the optimal way to achieve some higher-level outcome.
I don't buy it.
Making enough money for your preferred lifestyle with enough left over to save for the future? Enjoy, or at least don't mind, the day-to-day work and the people you work with? Learning enough marketable skills to land another job if needed? Congratulations, you've won the software development career game and it's a perfectly reasonable "goal" to just keep doing that indefinitely.
I also suspect that certain goals end up being self-defeating prophecies. Thinking back on the people I've worked with, the set of "well-respected staff+ engineers" has very little intersection with the set of "engineers laser-focused on career advancement." Maybe just my small sample size, though.
old_man_snowflake@reddit
Every company is very different as well. Senior developers at one company would be junior or no-hire devs at another company. "senior developer" is generally the way they keep developer salaries low -- since it encompasses ~5y experience all the way to the best programmers of our time.
look for companies that go beyond "senior" they're hard to find but they're out there. principal/staff engineer is usually the next step up. google goes further i believe with different fellowship programs.
old_man_snowflake@reddit
I tell them I am exactly where I want to be. I have to be clear I'm not looking to manage a team or have them "build a team around me" I don't want to be a manager, a PM, or anything else.
skidmark_zuckerberg@reddit
I’m a Senior IC - this is the end game. I’m not going to deal with the stress of management, or higher positions with more visibility. The most I do above being senior is pseudo team lead.
I think it’s perfectly fine to be a Senior IC, knock out tickets, maybe influence some change - and collect a check for however long you need until you can retire. I work with a 52 year old developer who has done everything in the past 25 years, and he finally landed back as a Senior IC. His own words: “it’s much less stressful and the pay is still really good”.
Technical-Cicada-602@reddit
Ha ha… I’m that senior IC. I was recently in my yearly review and my manager started talking about what I would need to do to “get to L6”…
“Been there. No thanks. Let some younger guy without a family have it. Got any interesting tickets I can work on?”
ScientificBeastMode@reddit
It’s really weird to me that everyone in management wants everyone else to be “hungry” to step up the career ladder when there simply isn’t room for that. Not everyone can be a team lead or principal engineer, and as everyone climbs the ranks, you generally get more talented engineers but they become more expensive in aggregate. Sometimes the status quo is desirable.
skidmark_zuckerberg@reddit
It’s just really hard in this line of work to set clear work life balance boundaries when you get to certain positions. Even at my job, which has very good WLB, the staff engineer and architect both spend considerably more time working than the rest of us plebs. And they are married with kids! No thanks.
Mountain_Sandwich126@reddit
People assume you need to climb. If your happy where you are and just want to keep doing it, that's fine.
Now , if you're not good at it, that's a different story
fluffyzzz1@reddit
How do you feel about Machine Learning creating more code? What if that affects the need for your job? Would you want to slow down innovation so you can just do your job and go home?
InfiniteJackfruit5@reddit (OP)
As someone who works with it daily, believe me it won’t affect anything lol
fluffyzzz1@reddit
The "senior" engineers I know don't seem to be progressing that fast and they don't use AI
bwainfweeze@reddit
For one, I think people fail to appreciate the value of the average developer who has been there since early days and remember why we did all the crazy stuff we do. Why replacing it with other stuff may end up just as crazy.
And while it can make life easier to have people you can hand any task and they will complete it, having people who can finish a subset of all tasks is far, far better than having flaky people. And having all of any one personality type has worse outcomes than having a mix.
TopSwagCode@reddit
Nothing wrong with being a developer. You don't have to be lead, staff engineer manager or whatever. But saying you have no idea isn't true ;) Sounds like your happy where you are currently. Doesn't mean you don't have options down the line. Also you always have options to look for new challenges in new teams / companies.
ButWhatIfPotato@reddit
I intend to improve forever and ever and ever, I must know everything and do everything, I will know every thought from every living being, I will gain the keys which access the primodial secrets of the universe and understand how life itself is done and undone, I will become the god that makes gods, creation itself will bent the knee, look upon me and ask for guidance!
selfmotivator@reddit
Same boat!
Every other time I'm having a review with my manager, he likes to ask what my 3-yr, 5-yr plans are. I don't know man! I might become a line-cook or something. Who knows?
But people don't like to hear you don't have career goals (and might even punish you for it), so I always have a canned answer prepared.
rforrevenge@reddit
A canned answer like what?
selfmotivator@reddit
Something along the lines of looking to keep expanding my skills as an IC, then will evaluate whether the management track is for me in two or so years.
It's not untrue. But not quite true either.
coder111@reddit
It's work. You're selling your life 8 hours a day, so it's best to sell it dearly. Your pay matters, and your pay 5 years from now matters as well. So check what kind of positions pay the best, and aim there.
In terms of career progression you can go into architecture and tech skills, or go into team leads/management. Maybe a bit of both.
Also it helps to know the industry you work for. Learn some finance if you work for financial companies, learn some accounting if you work for accounting companies, learn some marketing if you work for a marketing companies, etc. It will help you talk to business side, and it will let you make better decisions.
ImmemorableMoniker@reddit
We spend so much of our time working. I encourage you to think about long-term goals that will keep it interesting.
For about 5 years, I had a goal to get into a particular industry/job role. It was quite different from what I was doing, so it took a lot of learning and transition roles to get there.
Then I got there, looked around, and said, "what's next?"
It took me a few years of chewing that question to figure it out. For a while, it was "keep building confidence where I am." There was plenty to learn, and I had several folks around me who I admired and wanted to learn from. Eventually, I felt confident where I was and saw a few paths forward to explore.
It's engaging to have long-term goals. I encourage you to think about it every so often, and when other folks ask it's OK to say you're thinking about it. If your attitude is "just do the job and go home" maybe that's OK for a while, but to me it sounds like a miserable routine.
WolfNo680@reddit
Honestly, as someone in a similar boat to OP, making these kinds of "long term" goals always feels like an exercise in futility - my parents always told me to do the same thing and every single time, nothing I wrote ever worked out - so I eventually just stopped doing it. I have more immediate goals (getting a new job at X kind of company) but things like 3/5 year plans feel so nebulous.
How do you "plan" for something 5 years down the road? Similar to our actual jobs - if someone asked you to plan out a feature on a 5 year timeline you'd think they were nuts, no?
Not trying to be dismissive, but just trying to understand what you get out of it because it's never worked for me.
ImmemorableMoniker@reddit
I view career goals as aspirational statements as to where I want to go. Generally, I like to have one big one. As time goes on, smaller goals that can contribute to the larger goal pop up and might be my more immediate focus, but they are only useful so long as they contribute to the larger goal.
In 5-10 years, I want to start my own company. That's my long-term goal.
So what do I need to do to get there? Well, one gap I see is to better understand what is actually useful work vs. what folks do at work to feed their own egos. How the puck do I answer that? I express my curiosity to others and listen. Folks in management-focused positions might have advice, or book recommendations, or meetings I can sit in on. Great - here are some short-term things to explore.
Perhaps one value to goals is to focus my curiosity? I'll have to think on that.
If I get to 2030 and haven't started my own company I'll have a good deep think about if my long term goal is still valid. Maybe it's not, and that's OK. Maybe it is and I have to put my ass in gear with more immediate and aggressive short-term goals. We'll see when we get there.
I hope that helps. If you want to keep chatting feel free - I find this kind of conversation very interesting!
snes_guy@reddit
I'm assuming this is someone asking you in an interview or a one-on-one a question like "where do you see yourself in five years?"
These are open ended questions, not something with a fixed answer that you are expected to know. They are giving you an opportunity to explain why you're the right person for the job – either your current job, a prospective job, or a future job that might open up eventually.
jacobjp52285@reddit
So I’m doing this exercise with all of the engineers on my team right now. What I would say is, if you’re in the position you want to be in for the rest of your career, that’s fine. You still need to grow and get better so that you continue to be marketable if something were to ever happen to the company. I would still push you to do consistent professional development, and create bigger and stronger skills.
Frankly, if I see an engineer on one of my teams that does not want to grow and does not want to consistently get better, my question would be is this the right career path for them. That said, there are plenty of companies out there that only expect you to do your job, they don’t expect you to grow, they just want a result. I would say though, with the changes coming to our field (12-36 months away) you’re going to regret not adapting and growing.
RegrettableBiscuit@reddit
My job is just my job. I like writing code, and I want to keep doing it. My actual goals in life have nothing to do with my job.
grizzdoog@reddit
I just wish I could find another job after getting laid off. SE II, three YOE. Be happy you are employed!
Rubix982@reddit
I would like to explore, but that takes time, and I do not get free time in my day to day life.
I will still like to program and be in IT, but not want to deal with corporate stuff.
Zerodriven@reddit
Head of Engineering.
Dev > Got annoyed with how things were working and changed it, got recognised > senior dev > repeat > Dev manager > repeat > promoted to head of Dev > found more stuff that annoyed me but on a bigger scale but no power to fix it > trying to get head of engineering to solve these problems.
I'm in never ending meetings.
I want to go back to writing code sometimes :(
DeterminedQuokka@reddit
I mean I don’t tell people I have no idea. I know where I want it to go, exactly where it is.
levelworm@reddit
Senior could be your boat? In my case I don't even know which domain I should pursuit. I hate what I do right now and want to get into low level programming, but have too little energy to make the transfer.
ScientificBeastMode@reddit
Just say you want to grow as an individual contributor, especially in various technical specialties, and over time take on a mentorship role for fellow ICs. Just say you love being an IC, and you don’t want to leave that space for now.
Most managers understand that, and they honestly probably love that. Managers love really solid ICs on their teams.
HRApprovedUsername@reddit
I’m in the same boat. I try to treat my job like a job and just do what I’m asked and tune it out after hours. Unfortunately it seems hard to make it far like that.
ScientificBeastMode@reddit
“Making it far” requires taking on more responsibility. And more responsibility requires not tuning certain things out, and devoting a lot of your focus to those things. That’s just part of the job of staff+ engineers and managers. Not everyone needs to take on that role, though, and that’s totally fine.
Designer_Holiday3284@reddit
You clearly have an ideia what you want, you just said it in your last paragraph.
It's not a problem to not want to manage others. To each their own. You apparently want to keep specializing in your technical field and to have a good work life balance.