Failed my CFII for something so stupid. What do I say when I go to airline interviews?
Posted by Real-Ad2497@reddit | flying | View on Reddit | 203 comments
So I failed my CFII oral for something super dumb (please make fun of me for this, #BringBackBullying). My brain was just in a fog after a lot of difficult questions and he asked me what was this number in the approach plate above. I promptly responded DME. He then asked me what was that DME from to which I also promptly responded again, I-LIT. Then he asked me what was I-LIT. And my dumb ass just couldn’t think of it and had a brain fart. After looking in every book I had and panicking that I couldn’t find the answer, I tried to ask for a break just to let my brain calm down for a second but he just went ahead and slapped me with the disapproval which I def deserved lol.
My real question is, how do I explain this in an airline interview without sounding like I don’t know how to fly a plane. Obviously it was a big brain fart and I learned a lot from it but it just seems like no matter what I think of, it’s either I’m blaming my instructor for rushing me through and not going over it (which sounds awful to blame someone else for your short comings), or yeah I was just being dumb. Just trying to get some opinions on how to say this without blaming or calling myself an idiot.
P.s. I finished the check ride and passed. This is my only check ride failure.
TurkishDrillpress@reddit
I failed my private pilot check ride twice.
TWICE.
I was also hired by Delta, American, and Southwest.
Don’t sweat it. Busts happen
Away_Bunch_9210@reddit
Hey, glad I came across your comment. I recently failed my private twice as well, both on the ground for simple things (One of them being I was getting married the next day and was overwhelmed). I mentally am having a hard time getting over the fact that it might hurt my reputation for joining an airline when it comes to interviews. Any advice you’d have for me/things you mentioned when explaining the two failures?
Euryheli@reddit
The people interviewing you are humans who have also made mistakes. You just say that you missed a question, it was something you had missed in your prep, and in the stress of the moment you couldn't find the answer. So you went back and studied more and learned what you needed, and had a teachable moment you took forward to your students and career.
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
Awesome, thanks for that man
Middle_Ad8616@reddit
You passed but failed?
airbss9@reddit
It really is just that easy. You missed the question. You went back, studied it and now you know. You will always bring a students attention to that detail. You’ll be fine. Learn from your mistakes. Good luck.
nfw9001@reddit
As a former interviewer, it is just that simple.
prex10@reddit
"I failed my CFI oral when trying to teach approach plates. I wasn't prepared enough and didn't do my best that day. I went back hit the books and went back in and aces the rest of the oral. I learned that there is always small details that shouldn't go unnoticed and have made sure not to do that since and made sure my students knew that too".
ILikeFlyingAlot@reddit
So I coach people to interview and would edit this response a little bit. I think as you get later in ratings and having so much success previously there is a better way to answer it. I’d go with:
‘To be honest, failing my CFII was a humbling experience. Up until that point, I’d passed all my checkrides, so I followed my usual check ride prep and went into it feeling confident. I What I didn’t fully appreciate was that at the CFII level, the standards are higher, and my usual preparation wasn’t enough anymore.
That experience taught me that the further you go in aviation, the harder you have to work. It pushed me to really double down and strive to be the hardest-working person in the room. It lit a fire under me and I went back studied the material more and passed it the second time. Looking back, I’m grateful for that lesson. It helped me grow and be a better pilot.’
This highlights personal growth, humility, and a positive outlook on failure. It frames the experience as a stepping stone to becoming a better pilot and highlights your resilience and work ethic. This is ideal for a professional setting where you want to show how failure shaped your character and commitment to improvement.
Buzz407@reddit
Interviewer here (not for airlines but still for another serious industry).
The next thing I would have asked after that response is "What would you have said before you got interview coaching and prep. I want to know that you're capable of efficient communication and don't need 3 paragraphs to say you screwed up."
*Deer in headlights*
ILikeFlyingAlot@reddit
You might possibly be one of the worst interviewers ever then. There is no benefit of being confrontational during the interview - the goal of an interviewer is to make someone feel comfortable that they open up and you get a sense of the real person.
Buzz407@reddit
It isn't confrontational, it is about making someone lighten up so that they show me them. Not who they think I want them to be. If calling BS and making them drop the politician routine upsets them rather than making them laugh, they probably won't work out.
ILikeFlyingAlot@reddit
It’s not confrontational? You said deer in headlines……
If someone is giving canned answers, I would respond - I can tell by your answers you’ve prepared for this interview, which suggests it means a lot to you. While I admire your preparation, I want to get to know the real you. So tell me who was the first person you told you failed? Why did you call them? What did they say? How did you feel after the phone call? Were you ever angry about it? If I offered you a weekend float plane package, would you take it or would you worry about another failure? These are real questions that people won’t prepare for that will allow you to hear the real person.
Buzz407@reddit
Based on a glance at your profile, It looks like your focus is the nursing field, I'm guessing in New England. I respect that, it is a hard industry in a really hard place.
My industry is a lot different than yours, I'm not going to pretend to know anything more than that. My exposure to the nursing community is strictly from having dated a bunch of nurses in my 20s and 30s.
I suspect there's a reason we both are where we are. That said, the purpose of the interview (for me) is for the benefit of the company and our customers, fullstop. It isn't my primary role and our turnover is incredibly low. I don't know if I'm a good interviewer or a bad interviewer. All I know is that I'm an effective one.
ILikeFlyingAlot@reddit
It is mostly nursing - where people are not innate sales people, have a hard time talking about themselves, and soft approaches allow you see their true selves. I imagine where people are a bit more sales oriented, competitive it could require different skills.
Buzz407@reddit
My folks would all probably be bad salespeople. My applicants have run the gamut. We get all kinds. When crafting a posting I try not to exclude people coming from unrelated industries if the job doesn't require very specific certifications or clearances. The last hire for an analyst job was one of the special ones. She was an applicant with no specific industry experience and a little nervous. It took about 5 minutes to calm her down and get rid of the wall, then she showed me her brilliance. Easiest decision to hire ever. 2 years later and she's still a star. I can't imagine having to hire for an industry with high burnout like healthcare.
Buzz407@reddit
You're being confrontational.
LeadSledGirl@reddit
Nah, not deer in headlights. I’d bust up laughing at that point and own my dumb mistake on the checkride. Next question.
Buzz407@reddit
That response would 99% get you to second interview. It is the only correct response. :D
burnheartmusic@reddit
This is the cheesiest thing I’ve ever seen. I would take points off if someone said this. If anyone other than a great actor with great timing said this, it would sound awful. Sorry. Some of it is fine, but it’s wayy too much
thestreaker@reddit
^ This right here is why I always recommend professional interview prep. Especially now in a competitive environment, any edge you can gain is worth it.
NuttPunch@reddit
ChatGPT could come up with that response too.
Worried-Country-6730@reddit
And you still used “lit”!
anna_or_elsa@reddit
As someone who listens to interviews, I'd be very impressed with a response like this but everything after the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph is too much puffery. I'd be moving from impressed to inwardly rolling my eyes. The 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph was the perfect conclusion. I would have been impressed with the concise answer.
Reading the next sentence I thought 'Here we go...' and I went from impressed to oh great, the over-rehearsed answer. What I call the "sell job".
I know you are there to sell yourself as the best candidate, you don't need to explain to me you are selling yourself as the best candidate.
I get it, the perfect interview prep course answer, and that is exactly what it ended up sounding like.
The first part was so perfect it made the letdown worse when it rambled on into the "sell job".
FromTheHangar@reddit
My experience outside of aviation is exactly what you describe. Candidates that stop after the first paragraph come across much more genuine than those that try to sell it with something like "I strive to be the hardest working person in the room, it lit a fire under me." It's too much a rehearsed answer.
Same for "my one flaw is that I work too hard". I had a coworker that wrote this in the interview notes as "Pretends to be a unicorn that farts glitter, pass."
muskratmuskrat9@reddit
That’s a great frame. That being said, interviews prep services I understand is fairly common for the airlines. Wouldn’t everyone start to sound the same?
anna_or_elsa@reddit
As in interviewer (not in aviation) YES!
It was a great answer but went on too long.
"That experience taught me that the further you go in aviation, the harder you have to work." was the perfect conclusion.
The rest makes me think "I get it you are selling yourself as the best candidate, you don't have to explain to me you are selling yourself as the best candidate"
I'm impressed by people who can make a concise point and shut up. It's an interview, if I want to know more I'll ask a follow-up question. It shows me you understand the roles of the conversation and the purpose of the "meeting". I want to get to know you, not hear a sell job you rehearsed.
Don't get me wrong, there is a place for interview prep. Some people don't think well on their feet, lack confidence, etc.
All that said: there is no right answer. Every answer is a gamble on what they want to hear, the role you are interviewing for, the mood/personality of the interviewer, etc.
MaxCantaloupe@reddit
I read and spoke that at a conversational pace, and it took 32 seconds. You don't have 32 seconds to listen to the answer of a question that you asked about what someone might refer to as their biggest failure in their career so far?
ILikeFlyingAlot@reddit
Honestly - you have 100 people who have wanted to be a pilot for United, their stories will always sound similar. A coach helps them tell their authentic story to the best of their ability, provides the experience to be confident, which in turn prevents them from common pitfalls. Considering pilots have spent 10,000s of dollars to get to the interview stage, early interviews mean higher seniority, and the next step comes with substantial pay increases - I’d be inclined to cross every t and dot every i before your interview.
anna_or_elsa@reddit
EXACTLY especially the word "authentic". The answers need to sound like your answers. A stock answer is not going to answer a non-stock question well. I'm lucky I don't have questions I'm required to ask.
My first question is always "Tell me about yourself". If you answer I like to work hard and excel at everything I do and try to contribute to the success of my teammates and company you are not off to a good start...
Klutzy_You5142@reddit
As a non-US person just getting my PPL I'm just curious. Do airline interviewers look down upon "too coached" interviewees? I'm ridiculously good at interviewing for non-flying jobs, but I reckon that actually being coached might fly well in airline interviews because it is a very procedural job. It shows you did prep and it shows you can remember your answers which are both good traits. Is that the case?
PlaneShenaniganz@reddit
Long story short, they do. It needs to be polished but not feel too fake and rehearsed.
ILikeFlyingAlot@reddit
I think the success rate of people using coaching services suggests it works very well / I don’t think it comes across as robotic, but as you said prepared and confident both which are good traits for pilots.
Urbansdirtyfingers@reddit
This, but take out "To be honest", unnecessary and makes you sound like you're trying too hard or lying about other stuff
ILikeFlyingAlot@reddit
It’s a bit stylistic, as it is a filler, so if someone didn’t want to use it I wouldn’t be concerned. But once, in an answer like this it acknowledges vulnerability, engages the listener, and enhances impact. It works well because of the flow of the ending. I wouldn’t use it more than once, and only in a setting where you share a failure like this.
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
Thanks for the advice man!
Push_Pull_Humpty@reddit
I'm at the majors, and I failed my MEI add on when teaching the engine failure on climb out in the plane. In short all you have to sell to them is that you know what you did, and don't blame anyone but yourself, and explain how you studied and passed on the second attempt and what you learned from that whole experience.
WhiteoutDota@reddit
This was their CFII
EpicLimaBean44@reddit
Let’s focus on the positives: This is your first and so far only checkride failure. Usually what gets people on checkrides is seemingly tiny things that you just miss in prep, just like what I failed my instrument ride for (in the flight portion, I passed the oral first try).
Like what others have said, we’re all people and people make mistakes. What’s important about making mistakes is showing that you learned from then, which you clearly did.
Congrats on your CFII, and may you have clear skies ahead!
randomroute350@reddit
Has something changed recently with failure criteria? I would think not having the answer to a SINGLE QUESTION would not be grounds for an unsat. Was this your only issue?
more-right-rudder@reddit
I think it’s based on DPE to DPE. If you’re doing well and have one small hiccup I don’t think you should be failed. The written is a 70% pass, we have standards for the flight portion that for some maneuvers are pretty forgiving. If you do well through an oral and miss one thing that isn’t going to kill you or your student I think a DPE failing you is BS.
For my CFII ride I did really well on the oral until he asked me what WAAS allows us to do. “Fly LPV approaches.” “What else?” “….” After 10 minutes of searching every resources I could think of he asked me two more questions and said let’s go fly. Obviously as soon as we were done I was talking to my instructor and we went over what else WAAS allows us to do and I felt like an idiot, but now I’ll never forget it
Rexrollo150@reddit
So what’s the answer? Don’t leave us hanging!
ComfortablePatient84@reddit
WAAS certification allows the GPS navigator to replace all functions of an NDB on an instrument approach, except course guidance on the final approach segment. That said, I wonder if there are any NDB IAP's left active in the United States?
It also allows the GPS navigator to replace the function of DME equipment.
Arx0s@reddit
Here’s the NDB approach from my home airport.
Lanky_Beyond725@reddit
What else does it allow you to do? Missing a major reason to have WAAS....
Shoddy-Muscle-9036@reddit
I believe what you’re getting at is not needing raim anymore?
Lanky_Beyond725@reddit
I was thinking of the rules for the alternates if you have WAAS. Like what type of approaches are required etc.
Shoddy-Muscle-9036@reddit
Ya you can pick a GPS approach for both destination and alternate so long as you use lnav mins
more-right-rudder@reddit
This is the answer the DPE was looking for. It was deep in my brain and I had it half pulled out but couldn’t remember it 100%
jojapay@reddit
KSUN has an NDB approach.
Wasatcher@reddit
I was teaching my 8s on pylons lesson in the CFI initial oral and accidentally included an 8s AROUND pylons graphic. I take full responsibility for not catching it in my lesson plans before the checkride, but I did own it and told the DPE "ah crap, I need to fix this. It's the wrong graphic". Boom, disapproval. I wonder to this day if I'd just kept my mouth shut if they'd caught it on their own without me ratting on myself lol.
more-right-rudder@reddit
Oof that’s a rough one, and from my point of view kind of unfair. You caught it right away, you can pretty easily pull up a correct 8s on pylons graphic and teach from that
Wasatcher@reddit
She said she couldn't let it go because primacy is core to instructing. That picture cost me $800 😭
xia03@reddit
it was a bigger problem than not answering a single question.
the answer is right on the approach plate ILS 04 KLIT, you can’t miss it, and there is even a line pointing to the end of runway placement of the localizer antenna. to a dpe panicking and not knowing where to look probably means lack of understanding of the basics
dirtycaver@reddit
In his answer he alluded to the rest of the issue- he was unable to find the reference for his response. It sounds like the DPE gave him the opportunity to dig through references to find the answer and was not able to find it. For me (as a CFII and army Instrument Examiner) this is the real failure. No problem if he offhand answers a question incorrectly, but when I ask the follow on questions, (there were two) and the student doesn’t know the answers, it’s a concern. As the CFII is a lot about show your references, if then, after the student is aware he has made an error based on my asking leading questions like his DPE did, and then can’t find the proper publication to support his answer (two locations I can think of at least off hand) that is the real failure. He wouldn’t let him go “clear his head” because there is a chance he might go out and google the answer. The DPE acted correctly in my view.
OGJMo@reddit
Agreed, and it likely occurred multiple times in oral.
dirtycaver@reddit
The takeaway for me from multiple DPE experiences is I’m often disappointed that there isn’t an in depth review of the assessment. I get it, they are paid by time, and they certainly aren’t required to do so, but that has always been a big point of my debriefs- particularly in the event of a failure- to ensure that I go through the missed items point by point with references. It helps the student move forward and gives them a thorough (and often emotionally disheartening) overview of their progress.
ComfortablePatient84@reddit
And I suppose when grilled in a ground eval for hours at length, you've never once found your brain exhausted and unable to function ideally.
Yeah, right! I know better and the culture in the airline industry for evaluating its own pilots isn't nearly as ruthless as you imply, much less overtly call for and endorse!
dirtycaver@reddit
I make no implications about the airline industry, I’ve never worked there. But I have taken all these evaluations, for helicopters in the military, where the evaluations are -much- more strenuous, and through DPEs later for my airplane transitions. I’m not judging his performance, but rather commenting on the performance of his DPE, and why his decision to fail OP may have been justified. OP seems to feel that way, but commenters down below are getting their panties in a wad because apparently evaluations should be easy.
aye246@reddit
It doesn’t have to take much; there’s a lot of discretion for DPEs. I’ve heard of some who rarely or even never pass a CFI checkride on the first go…something about not wanting to let new CFIs feel too confident/arrogant.
randomroute350@reddit
Then the entire DPE system needs torn down and rebuilt from the ground up. That's absolute horse shit and not how it should be.
jnelson111@reddit
You must be new here
randomroute350@reddit
just lucky enough to only need a DPE for one rating 25 years ago
mniccum1@reddit
Amen
brucebrowde@reddit
There's no reasonable way to overhaul any complex system to make it fair. However you overhaul it, someone will find a loophole that you did not account for. That's what humans do.
It does suck royally to be at the receiving end. Especially if the sole motivation is to scar someone's confidence. Not that too much confidence is good either, but this doesn't seem like the right way to remedy that.
dopexile@reddit
It depends if the DPE has alimony \ child support payments due and needs to collect the retest fees.
Grand-Amphibian-3887@reddit
What a dick. Why would anyone use this Ahole?
will_tulsa@reddit
I appreciate the spirit of that attitude, but going into a checkride with an expectation of failing people to humble them seems to be missing the mark
will_tulsa@reddit
The difficulty with the ACS is that there really isn’t “criteria” for failing the oral. I guess it has to be that way because of the nature of a complex oral exam, but DPE’s are wildly different on what constitutes an oral fail. Also, you could be wrong on one very important thing or one not so important thing. For example, if you insist best glide in the 152 is 50, that mistake could be deadly, whereas thinking a TAF covers 5 nautical miles instead of statute isn’t safety related.
ComfortablePatient84@reddit
I can tell you what the criteria is for an evaluator in the Air Force. You work directly for the squadron commander, and every checkride you give is reviewed. Any bust you assign will be reviewed in detail. If as the evaluator, you bust someone over something questionable, you won't be an evaluator any longer.
The FSDO's are supposed to provide this oversight. But, this is another area where the FAA weakens itself and as a result the quality of aviation.
randomroute350@reddit
Seems like they should look up and adopt the airline philosophies of "know where to find the answer". Agree to your points.
ComfortablePatient84@reddit
I was thinking the exact same thing. So, the criteria to pass just the ground eval portion of a CFI exam is to sit for three to four hours and get every single question correct?
Because if that is the criteria, then the FAA has allowed a BS system to develop on their watch, and sadly, that doesn't surprise me one iota!
And people wonder why there is a shortage of good CFI's, along with practically everything else.
HolyitsaGoalie@reddit
I found that for CFI it is the case. Sadly last year on my CFI oral I genuinely missed a question about 119.1 for commercial pilot privileges. I failed my CFI oral off of that one question. I come back a week later the DPE walks in and says “did you go over that question you missed?” I said “yes” then he said “great you passed the oral lets go fly” like dude come on I didn’t even get asked the question that I was failed for it was crazy.
Taptrick@reddit
I don’t get it. You were right, it is the DME from I-LIT. It would have been a mistake to say it was the LIT DME…
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
He was asking what was I-LIT though and I just couldn’t say that it was the identifier for the localizer
confusedguy1212@reddit
I’ll sound super pedantic so please excuse me. But the answer is that it’s the identifier of the NAVAID for which the DME in the box is referring to. It is usually the case that scanning the whole chart and in particular the plan view should find you that NAVAID by that identifier.
dirtycaver@reddit
It’s not identified in the plan view, but it is the very first block of the briefing strip on that plate (FAA, don’t know about Jepp)
confusedguy1212@reddit
You’re right about the briefing strip but not about everything else. Almost always the identifier mentioned in the DME box can be found in the plan view this approach included. It’s at the end of the runway 4L in the boldly highlighted box indicating it’s the primary NAVAID for this approach.
dirtycaver@reddit
Incorrect. It shows the Navajos being a localizer in the plan view, but does not identify it as having DME. The only place it identifies both is in the briefing box.
confusedguy1212@reddit
You’re splitting hairs over minutia. The point is practical. You have a distance requirement to identify a point. They tell you what station that distance is measure from. You find said station in the plan view, tune it in, and profit. Hooray you live another day.
Does it matter that the localizer box doesn’t specify the word “DME” in it? No.
dirtycaver@reddit
Yea probably on the minutiae, but that’s why we are here, and I was trying to decide how he might have not picked up the fact that the LOC and DME were tied together. He’s GA. Unlike your big planes he doesn’t have a DME receiver, our mil helos don’t either, so we always use GPS in lieu of DME.
dirtycaver@reddit
Despite my comment above, I felt bad for you too, as it took a minute for me to realize what he was asking you, and then I went back to the plate (that you were looking at) and looked again at the first block of the briefing…hahaha dang.
CavalrySavagery@reddit
It was so obvious to me that I did not understand what was the failure... And I REALLY think you knew it too as I just did, it was too obvious that you missed the answer.
camdiggitydog@reddit
lol, as a CFII I was starting to feel stupid like is it not DME from the localizer? Honestly sounds like the DPE wasn’t very specific on what he wanted, also he failed you for not knowing that it was the localizer identifier? Seems harsh in my opinion, glad you got your Checkride done though.
Valid__Salad@reddit
He couldn’t specify that it was DME to the localizer
LikeHuans4thSay@reddit
But what is I-LIT?
Brendon7358@reddit
I failed my instrument checkride because for some reason I bugged the wrong heading for my missed approach and this caused me to go left instead of right when going missed. I have no idea why I did that, I normally don’t write down left or right turn because it’s obvious but I do now. I have no idea how to explain this either
PhillyPilot@reddit
That’s how you die. But shit happens lol
Thick_Comedian_6707@reddit
I wonder how many people have died on a checkride?
PhillyPilot@reddit
At least 2 in a Piper Arrow.
ArchiStanton@reddit
You don’t have to go into granular detail. A simple- I received a disapproval during my CFI checkride. Simply, I didn’t fly the missed approach correctly. In review and reflection, Missed approaches are critical so I reviewed my methods for prepping and reviewing the chart and after retraining I passed on the next attempt.
bhalter80@reddit
I was commenting to someone last night that if you lose 140 IQ points clicking the mic to talk to ATC you lose 180 as soon as you sign the PBOR acknowledgement for a checkride
InevitableYam7@reddit
Own it. Seriously.
They’re not actually looking to test your knowledge or expose a flaw in your skillset. When you get to interviews; you’ll have passed all that. You’re a qualified pilot. They’re not trying to determine your qualifications; they’re trying to determine your fitness as a person.
The red flag they’re looking for is “The DPE was a jerk” or “Everyone gets that wrong” or “It’s not like I’ll ever use that here.”
They’re looking for “I was pretty frustrated at first but in hindsight, it was really helpful to expose a weakness in my knowledge where I had thought I was a bit stronger. I learned a lot from that experience and I think it’s why I had the success that I later had.”
Or; something that follows that format.
What they’re really looking for is to weed out a combative or ego driven individual who isn’t going to take feedback from check airmen, instructors, supervisors, or even colleagues. Someone who isn’t very teachable is a bad fit for a Part 121 carrier. Regulations change, equipment changes, personalities change, companies change. They want you for 30 years. And they want to know that over those 30 years; when those changes represent a roadblock or stumble in your path; you know how to handle it.
growingalawn@reddit
100% right here
anactualspacecadet@reddit
Say “I was LIT, sorry guys”
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
I’m going with this
anactualspacecadet@reddit
I hear Southwest has a sense of humor, not sure how far it extends but they might think it was funny
aerocheck@reddit
When I was filling out my Southwest pilot Application I used Stuart Smalley,s quote and it worked. Long time ago though when people knew who Stuart Smalley was but I think humor is still relevant as long as it’s in good taste.
drpeppers5@reddit
Currently ground crew for Southwest, humor goes a long way
dopexile@reddit
I-LIT my career on fire
Old-Kaleidoscope-155@reddit
I used to work in dropshipping for a big known company and we had the acronym LIT for lost in transit items. we literally never tired of saying "it's LIT fam"
Pooch76@reddit
"I'm thinking about getting help."
STRIDER_jason@reddit
As others have said, just be honest and humble about it. You learned from it and moved on. Im surprised to hear that you could fail for just a question like this. If you were sharp with all other aspects of approach plates, i would have let this slide, even though it is an important item. Or i would have kinda “led you” back to the top where you could probably find ILIT again….some DPEs just live for moments like this. I hope this one is more fair/nice than this scenario seems. Good luck in your career. You will be fine. Stay positive. You will learn a lot as a cfi. When you have 1500 hours and look back you’ll marvel at how dumb you were back when you got your commercial and cfi’s.
hitechpilot@reddit
LIT is a VOR, I get that. What's the I-?
AgonxReddit@reddit
All LOC identifiers start with an I-. This is to ensure one is using the correct navaid.
hitechpilot@reddit
Yes but this is the first time seeing one with a dash. Shows my low hours and flight range huh?
AgonxReddit@reddit
They always have an I and a dash!
hitechpilot@reddit
In the US?
AgonxReddit@reddit
Yes in the US!
hitechpilot@reddit
Exactly. I'm not. And it's r/flying not r/FAAFlying or something
DudeIBangedUrMom@reddit
I-LIT is the ILS DME, not the VOR.
hitechpilot@reddit
Ohhh well it's written in the plan view AND the frequency identifier (top left)... So yeah, I agree with OP, brain fart. Probably due to stress and anxiety.
coma24@reddit
Did you have the same brain fart? Not judging, just trying to understand what happened when you were asking the question. If you're only flying RNAV or VOR approaches, I could see how someone might be rusty on this. If you're flying ILS approaches, though, it's in your face on a constant basis when you identify the navaid for the approach (either through morse *pause for laughter* or through the on-screen identification).
hitechpilot@reddit
The one I'm familiar with (at WIII for example) doesn't have the dash. For example, ILS/LOC 07L is just ICHL. It's just a thing of "first time seeing one" in my case...
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
If you pull up that plate, it’s just the identifier for the localizer
Candid-Occasion-6707@reddit
I’ve failed two check rides. My instrument for having the wrong approach plate out for the approach (paper plates, this was a while ago) and a CL604 type ride because I didn’t do the go around properly. I interviewed at 2 airlines. The explanation for the failures was that simple. I think it took longer to type this out than tell them. One guy said “no worries, we’re electronic now” or something like that. Both airlines offered me a job though.
I think as long as you’re honest and don’t try to BS them you’ll be alright. This was in 2017. If you could fog a mirror and qualify for any ATP you were hired. I understand pilots are more in demand now. Don’t sweat it.
AirborneCFI@reddit
It’s a great talking point. Don’t worry about it
Prolover12@reddit
Sp what is I-LIT?
child-eater-6000@reddit
localiser identifier
zwaldo@reddit
When I was going for my CFI it was pretty commonly accepted that like 75% of first try’s failed. It’s a hard rating to get…it’s like passing the bar.
PferdBerfl@reddit
Former 121 interview committee member here.
So, just to be clear, you’re claiming that no other questions were missed? The DPE busted you on one chart question, and a trivial one at that?
Tread lightly here. One if two things happened - the DPE is a total dick (which is possible), or you missed more than you’re telling [us]. Is that the only chart question you didn’t know? Were there other areas that he asked questions about that you thought he wasn’t satisfied with? Do you see the conundrum here? As an interviewer, I would need to believe that the examiner is a total ass vs. your simple answer, even if you play the “I learned from my mistake” card. There is still a question of if you’re being truthful with your explanation.
That being said, unless there’s a pattern of checkride busts, you’re fine.
child-eater-6000@reddit
OP said that they were stuck on 2 other questions
VariationFalse8007@reddit
So what’s the right answer? To the question I’m curious 😅
Bernard-beejeezJinky@reddit
New instrument student here - what’s the answer to the question lol
Wackentosh@reddit
Kind of bullshit that the Loc, VOR and airport all have the same exact Identifier. I blame the Clinton’s
ryancrazy1@reddit
Oh shit would have said VOR.
KaHOnas@reddit
That's not at all confusing. /s
Holy jeez...
Remind me to have my crap together if i ever do the ILS 4L at Little Rock.
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
If they did 9/11, what’s stopping them from doing this
SympathyZestyclose13@reddit
“I’m a retard”
jnelson111@reddit
Only checkride failure? Yeah dude I think you’re toast man. I think you should just give up aviation as a career…
(I have 3 failures)
nascent_aviator@reddit
Side note: how is the runway threshold only 0.2 DME from the localizer? Aren't localizers sited on the opposite end of the runway? Or is the DME from the localizer on the opposite runway or something.
prez_2032@reddit
I am wondering the same thing
Reputation_Many@reddit
I did something stupid. Here is what is was. I’ll never do that again. Take ownership of your mistakes.
Good luck out there.
i-like-drum@reddit
LITTLE ROCK MENTIONED 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Maximus3311@reddit
For what it’s worth - I failed my CFI twice. Not my proudest moments. I’m now a captain at a legacy. I know failing any checkride feels awful - but it’s not the scarlet letter that you might think it is.
I can’t speak for regionals (the regional that hired me didn’t care at all) but at least for the bigger airlines they really only care about 121 failures. When I interviewed here I was asked about the failures…the interviewer laughed, shrugged, and we moved on.
In an airline interview they run across a lot of people with failures. If you can turn it into a positive (ie “here’s what I learned from this) then you’re fine 👍🏻
nascent_aviator@reddit
As requested: the "e" in your screenshot is the end of the sentence "Use I-LIT DME when on the localizer course." Pretty good hint! (#BringBackBullying)
Real talk, we all make mistakes. Give yourself a break and work hard to not fail a second checkride!
Dirty_Hornet911@reddit
I’m in Instruments training currently but all that means is 0.2NM distance from the localizer at KLIT, correct? Also the missed approach point for any MDA minimums?
PsychologicalPop8636@reddit
d
DisasterStriking3053@reddit
Question is..do you know what to do at that point?
crimbo19@reddit
I failed my MEI ride for somthing stupid too. Was asked to explain it on DAL interview and proceeded to describe the situation, why it was necessary for my growth as a professional and that I appreciated the examiner holding me to high standards instead of letting it slide. I then paraphrased a quoted from Futurama “I like to be the best kind of correct; technically correct”. They liked that and didn’t get the reference (thank god).
mcsnootz@reddit
You learned from it. The end. No excuses. Just tell them that.
cincybrian@reddit
What was the DPE looking for here? It’s a distance off of I-LIT. I-LIT is the localizer (see plan view). DME symbols are defined in the chart Users Guide (and other sources).
Is there something even more specific being asked?
tdkc7@reddit
Tell them it proves you didn't cheat and are honest about it. That is gold.
teamkillcaboose@reddit
just to clarify, that point would be the MAP for the non-precision approach?
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
Yup
grain_farmer@reddit
I would just avoid trying to minimise the severity of the mistake (i would not care what it is).
Don’t say “it was this annoying tiny detail that caught me out” because that shows your personality is preventing you from being aware of (and addressing) your flaws.
I make final hiring decisions and that’s a red flag for me. People need to use failures to improve themselves.
This was a serious oversight and it made you reassess whatever… aspect of your learning
brucebrowde@reddit
Do you find that people just learn to say that for the interviews or actually improve after they are hired?
grain_farmer@reddit
I mean, it’s also an indicator of soft skills, if you are self aware enough to say something like that, so one way or the other it’s more in your favour.
brucebrowde@reddit
No doubt. I'm just trying to gauge if your experiences suggest that people who have good soft skills are mostly just better bullshitters or actually better pilots.
grain_farmer@reddit
Not in my experience.
I think if you are self aware enough to say it in an interview you’re self aware enough to realise your screw up during your CFII could have ended in a Thai Airways Flight 311 esque death and take appropriate action to self improve.
I think fear of death is a fantastic motivator for self improvement. (I am not so acutely aware of my proximity to death on fixed wing but on helicopters it’s never far behind you)
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
Can’t edit the post so I’ll just comment.
this question was the final straw question, I struggled with a couple of things that I was able to find the answer to but, like I tell my students, DPE’s don’t want you to have to look up EVERYTHING. I struggled with two other things and this was the third thing.
I’ve done all my check rides with this guy and he is fair and gave me more than enough rope to pass. But like I said, due to having to deal with some difficult questions prior, my brain was just fogged and I couldn’t think of the answer.
Merlin2233@reddit
The pass rate on Instructor rides is so high majority of airlines do not care if you have one failure on a CFI/II OR MEI check ride. Especially if you went back and passed. If they ask just tell them the truth and make sure you know the correct answer now. It’s really no big deal. I failed my CFI on pre solo endorsements and never once got asked about it in any of my interviews.
Suuuumimasen@reddit
What's the answer?
StoicMachina@reddit
Tell the truth.
Stick with facts, admit your errors and what you’ve learned from the experience and how you overcame a setback in an utmost positive manner
Alternative-Chef-154@reddit
They will ask you all the failures you’ve had, just be honest and open with them, but honestly they don’t care much about your CFI checkrides since it’s not really required to get there, they more care about your PPL, IR,CSEL/CMEL, plenty of airline pilots got hours not doing CFI work so since it’s not required it’s not the biggest deal in the world, just be honest and open about what happened but just know they aren’t gonna deny you because you failed your CFII, I mean CFI since switching to the ACS has like a 20% first time pass rate anyways.
ABCapt@reddit
Q: Why did you fail your CFI-I? (If they even ask)
A: I had a brain fart, it was an easy answer but I was too amped up and was thinking way too much about it and was going for a complex answer when the real answer was only two words.
BrosenkranzKeef@reddit
Imo, if you think you failed because you brainnfarted on the word “localizer” then you definitely did not fail because you brainfarted. You probably chalked up several mistakes or made at least one big one and this meaningless brainfart was the last straw.
bezzer88@reddit
There's a joke in here somewhere about finding the KLIT surely.
citori421@reddit
I AM THE KLIT COMMANDER
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
There’s no such thing, I’ve searched for years
CaravanPirate@reddit
Thats really sad bro; its on the way to the G.
ScJo@reddit
I just passed ifr. It’s the dme distance from the ils localizer signal right?
Is it a trick question? It’s maybe easier if I see the whole plate i guess
Sweetcheels69@reddit
I’ve noticed that they care less about the extra add ons like CFII and MEI. Even sometimes CFI they don’t care as much. But in all seriousness, your examiner was just being a dickhead for no reason. Next he’s gonna ask what color are localizers in the US? What frequency band are they on? Thats beyond nitpicky imo.
SweetHomeIceTea@reddit
Isn't it 0.2 DME from the AEoR? Also, what is I-LIT?
nathane37@reddit
They’ll ask about past checkride failures. You’ll be honest, say you failed your CFII as you were not as knowledgeable on the material as you should’ve been at the time and it’s made you better and more intelligent due to your failure. Hell, I was fired as an instructor for making back to back mistakes. Went to instruct elsewhere, got better and learned, and then reapplied and got hired again. Talked about it during interview, told them I messed up horribly, yet learned from the experience and got better. They’re looking for humility and responsibility. If you try to make excuses, they’ll see right past the BS and are much more likely to throw your application in the bin. Good luck!
lnxguy@reddit
I have taken 11 FAA checkrides with no failures, but was never asked if I ever failed during an interview. The fact that I showed up qualified and proficient influenced the outcome, I guess...
charlespigsley@reddit
What is “I-LIT”? I’m confused
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
Identifier for localizer
No_Particular_2080@reddit
Hey I’m about to take my IRF check ride out of LIT. Who did you do yours with?
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
It wasn’t out of KLIT. It was just a plate we used
Aggressive-Vanilla93@reddit
what is IlIT? the name of the station ?
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
Identifier for localizer
Cantland@reddit
Honestly that's a pretty ridiculous pass/fail question. Sorry man :( DPE was an ass if he failed you on that single question.
throwaway5757_@reddit
What is I-LIT?
Fun-Estate-3775@reddit
Don’t ever psyche yourself out, if you don’t know the answer simply tell the examiner you will have to confer with the FO on this since you are not sure. As a military examiner I can assure you that it is never expected that you know EVERYTHING. Examiners push to find the limits of your knowledge and then add a little knowledge to your info bank. As an examiner I could tell within 2 to 3 minutes how a guy was going to do.
I once had a dude stepping my office for a check ride with “some questions.” I told him to fire away. His first question was: “Four boost pumps in the wing tanks, are they secured with hex nuts or phillips screws??” I laughed, said: ‘Nobody gives a shit, question time is over, my turn…” Let me give you a quick guess on how his flying was?? (Totally SUCKED!!!)
When I had my interview for one of the majors I had been flying for 12 years in the Air Force. I was (and still am LOL) God’s gift to Aviation after being a fighter pilot, instructor pilot and many other cool things in the Military. I never took the civilian side of an aviation seriously. When the interviewer asked me for the definition of V1 I told him it was simply a lawyered up version of “our” military Go-no-Go speed.
They laughed at me and told me my general knowledge was seriously lacking. Then they stuck out their hand and said: ”Welcome to XXXXX Airlines, luckily we have absolutely the best ground school instructors to get you up to speed.”
Set expectations for yourself high, but if you miss them don’t beat yourself up. Keep looking forward and don’t let mistakes affect your current state. Aviation after all is not what’s behind you, it’s what coming up at you at anywhere between 160kts to Mach 2.
AirborneHentai82@reddit
“I was drunk that day, my bad boys.”
hhmb8k@reddit
I think I like the idea of calling the interviewers your "bad boys" most of all. Don't let them get too uppity. They know they've been bad boys.
PhoenixSpeed97@reddit
I'm glad I didn't decide to pursue flying for a career if this shit got you failed. I have mental gymnastics so many basic things already 😂
Hcstenvall@reddit
Don't think they look at CFI CFII checkride failures.
throwaway642246@reddit
ILS 4L into KLIT
(lol)
Ratty_BeardFace@reddit
Give them a good laugh and show humility. Welcome to the club
Unairworthy@reddit
Stupid failure. I've yet to have a smart one.
freightdoge@reddit
Honestly no one gives a fuck about failures anymore, the door is wide open in that regard. It’s a hard checkride. I would just say you learned never to take passing a checkride for granted
Camanei@reddit
"Where do you apply for the flight attendent position?"
_Red_King__@reddit
This post brought me to a question. Sometimes I see here posts like "failed something, what to do with this bad record" - is this something specific to U.S.? I'm Canadian and I asked a few people here who told me that my pass/failure history is a confidential information and nobody can access it unless it's a serious incident (God forbid) where Transport Canada may share this information for the purpose of investigation. Isn't it true?
mikeindeyang@reddit
In the UK they have access to all your theory exam scores and how many attempts it took to pass check rides.
For example, BA won't hire you with frozen ATPL if you don't have first time pass for instrument rating and above 85% average for theory exams.
tempting-carrot@reddit
The joke among airline recruiters, “ everyone fails their cfi”
I know this was II, but they just care that you learned from the experience.
AutomaticClick1387@reddit
If it’s truly a legit, stupid reason you failed turn this DPE into your FSDO. The FAA is pulling these jackass DPE’s certificates that fail students for no and retarded reasons.
cjonesaf@reddit
You’ll be fine. Be honest and accountable, have a good attitude, and harvest positive outcomes from failure. That’s what they are looking for.
EwanWhoseArmy@reddit
At least for job interviews if you are honest and aware of your mistake it shouldn’t hurt your chances
Especially if you have learnt from a mistake
poser765@reddit
Hey so has anyone here actually had to explain a checkride bust? I have two and other than disclosing them I don’t think any interviewer has ever asked for an explanation.
texas1982@reddit
For an instructor checkride especially, identify the root cause of why you messed it up. Figure out a plan to avoid doing it again. Tell them exactly that.
554TangoAlpha@reddit
I have 2 check ride failures, they were barely even mentioned in about a dozen interviews I’ve done. From small 135 to majors, learn from it and move on.
SkyhawkPilot@reddit
I’m gonna say that it’s not “super dumb.” Yes, as a CFII, you should know this, but with most modern GPS, it will show you the distance to the next fix and the finally the MAP, and not the other way around. Do 50+ approaches that way and it’s odd to see the DME distance when you’re in the hot seat.
Going forward, I’m sure you will not let your students fail on that, and you can explain in an interview how you now have a better understanding at what backup equipment you can use in the event you lose GPS.
Original412@reddit
Dude it’s cfi I wouldn’t sweat it as it’s not required by the airline
VxAngleOfClimb@reddit
Yes. And no.
Yes- If it's the only checkride failed it's not a big issue career killer.
No- It's not required by the airline, but multiple failed checkrides for certificates, recurrent, types, etc can show a trend of failures that the airline may not want to deal with,
scrollingtraveler@reddit
That’s a really silly thing to flub up on an extremely challenging check-ride. I wouldn’t sweat that.
I have a coworker that flew into a TFR and was welcomed by fast movers that escorted him to an airport where the secret service was waiting for him with the local sheriffs department. He is in a major now.
I was at a pilot hiring convention last year and a Delta CA that was doing Q&As for groups of 5-8 people that said during interviews 75% of check failures are CFII. Don’t worry especially that it’s your only failure.
CaravanPirate@reddit
You say that you’ve learned a lot in the ten years since. 😉
capn_starsky@reddit
I failed commercial on landings. They don’t care why you failed, just that you’re mature enough to own it and have taken initiative to improve yourself so you are as prepared as possible for their training.
Agent62@reddit
I've done airline interviews. Failing your CFI is as common as farting. There's a very good chance they don't even ask you about it and if it's really you're only failure, they might ask you simply because they want to know the one thing that tripped you up.
Don't sweat it, but if it does ever come up just be honest in the interview, it's not a crazy thing to mess something simple like that up.
bhalter80@reddit
"I couldn't provide a simple answer to a simple question about what the station providing a distance measurement was, under the stress of the situation I learned to ask for a moment to gather my thoughts and proceed rather than rushing into answers"
Real-Ad2497@reddit (OP)
This is awesome! Thanks!
rFlyingTower@reddit
This is a copy of the original post body for posterity:
So I failed my CFII oral for something super dumb (please make fun of me for this, #BringBackBullying). My brain was just in a fog after a lot of difficult questions and he asked me what was this number in the approach plate above. I promptly responded DME. He then asked me what was that DME from to which I also promptly responded again, I-LIT. Then he asked me what was I-LIT. And my dumb ass just couldn’t think of it and had a brain fart. After looking in every book I had and panicking that I couldn’t find the answer, I tried to ask for a break just to let my brain calm down for a second but he just went ahead and slapped me with the disapproval which I def deserved lol.
My real question is, how do I explain this in an airline interview without sounding like I don’t know how to fly a plane. Obviously it was a big brain fart and I learned a lot from it but it just seems like no matter what I think of, it’s either I’m blaming my instructor for rushing me through and not going over it (which sounds awful to blame someone else for your short comings), or yeah I was just being dumb. Just trying to get some opinions on how to say this without blaming or calling myself an idiot.
P.s. I finished the check ride and passed. This is my only check ride failure.
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