Social Media and Influence Operations
Posted by majortrioslair@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 17 comments
Where do you go to get real information or discussion these days?
Instagram/Facebook/Twitter/Youtube are captured by neoliberal/right wing/corporate bots. Their moderators actively suppress climate content while allowing literal porn and nazis to run rampant.
So is the front page of reddit. Specifically /r/worldnews, /r/fluentinfinance, and /r/pics have the most obvious bot operations going on (check the accounts of each top post or top comments). Most of the popular subreddits outright ban any discourse in comments that counters an approved narrative.
It feels like the entire internet is getting astroturfed with the exception of "closed off" communities like this (where the mods aren't in on the botting/influence operations). They've actually succeeded in making it impossible for any large scale organization or discourse to occur that goes against corporate/establishment agendas.
Hour_Raisin_7642@reddit
You should read several different sources to discover that each one has their own interest on the real event. I use an app called Newsreadeck to follow several source at the same time and get the articles ready to read. I'm following several know local and internaitonal sources at the same time
digdog303@reddit
instead of looking for a pristine information outlet or unmolested forum, recognize the bias and manipulation in each of them, and understand everything on the screen is an advertisement for something(a product, a candidate, an ideology, a way of living) if not actual propaganda. careful wading and waterproof boots.
nommabelle@reddit
I haven't used it, but my favorite youtubers promote Ground News, which is an aggregator that claims to show articles on 'both sides' for the same news so users can how it's being spun. I've been wanting to try it...
dumnezero@reddit
Media literacy is great if you can build it, but don't expect it to save the world.
nommabelle@reddit
Is it bad if I answer r/collapse? But really, I do think this sub is a great place for important updates and in-depth discussion without loads of bots (perhaps I'm optimistic on that though) or misinformation
I'll eagerly wait for other replies here, because I literally have no idea anymore.
JustAnotherYouth@reddit
There is definitely some counter information / narrative control going on in this subreddit. Doomer mindset can easily feed into status quo apathy, which does fit the goals of entrenched power like big oil.
I’m not techno hope type but even within our current capitalistic systems a lot more could be done to improve efficiency and reduce emissions. Fossil fuel companies run multi billion dollar lobbying and public relations campaigns, they definitely do online narrative shaping.
Don’t get excited this doesn’t mean big oil is worried about /r/collapse. It just doesn’t cost a lot to hire people to promote your messages on Reddit groups (even easier now with AI writing).
ZenApe@reddit
And here I've been writing doomer content for free.
If anyone wants to throw some money my way please do.
dumnezero@reddit
IraJAllen@reddit
I agree with your first sentence. Your second sentence is technically true, but misleading. Your third sentence is simply incorrect, and is at the heart of most NYT-style (i.e., hypercapitalist) invective against "doomers."
If a person doesn't take seriously that political economy and governance structures are also technologies, it's very easy to say that within the current world order a lot more could be done. It "could," in the sense that it's conceptually feasible using existing physical technologies. But most things that theoretically could be done in actual point of fact cannot be done because our governing technologies prevent it from being done and because nobody knows how to build mass movements that credibly threaten revolutionary violence fast enough to make our governing technologies pursue the "already discovered" climate solutions--which would absolutely devastate a number of existing power bases within the ordering political economic technologies of the world--as a sop against revolution.
I wrote about this a fair bit in a recent book, Panic Now? Tools for Humanizing.
It's entirely understandable that many well-meaning people think "the solutions are already here," and it's excusable that many people who have not thought seriously about governance technologies think "building political will" is some kind of "natural," i.e., non-technological process.
But it is not. And the solutions are not already here.
For whatever it's worth, my own view (detailed in the book) is not that this means nobody should focus on a whole range of political and other technological levers. Many people probably should. But it won't be enough to save the current version of the world we inhabit, the Carbon-Capitalism-Colonialism (CaCaCo) world of a very large human population collocated along lines of great complexity. It's just that some kinds of technological solutionism--even though they can't fulfill their promise of "saving the world"--are useful in creating and leaving good artifacts lying around.
To the OP question, I think r/collapse is largely a good aggregator. I use a bunch of other, smaller subs in the same way, alongside a lot of accounts on Twitter and now Bluesky, and multiple conflicting media sources for the specific items of high relevance to me.
I don't think there's any one place a person can, at this point, reasonably hope to discover "the truth" about how things are going in the world. Cobbling together lots of different infostreams, with a particular emphasis on loosely (but not necessarily evenly) balancing the well-understood material and ideological conflicts that orient these, is about the best anyone can do.
That said, a committed person absolutely could--probably not even that complicatedly--write a few algorithms to do the viewpoint weighting, use an AI agent to crawl the web and collate sources, and get an AI summary of overarching trends that links out to key items of interest. You still wouldn't have "the truth," but you could cover an awful lot of ground. Probably doing this pretty well wouldn't need a lot more compute than a dedicated server and a couple cards running one of the open source or quasi-open source LLMs, and wouldn't need all that advanced python skills.
The problem is, the second somebody who's not you or implicitly trusted by you does that, you have no special reason to believe they aren't systematically skewing their results in one or more ways that are non-obvious to you. In an information ecosystem structured above all else by justified mistrust, becoming a "trusted source" is worth impossibly much.
There's no real way out of this bind, unfortunately. For most people, the best option is either to create a private aggregator/compiler/synthesizer as described above or, more readily within reach for most, to follow the highly inefficient path of taking in lots and lots of different sorts of info and weighing each against all the rest and against some more or less self-reflexively articulated parameters for trust or mistrust. Which, obviously, is exhausting.
The good news in all this is that most people probably don't need too much high-quality, granular information, really. Once you accept that CaCaCo really is falling apart, it's useful to keep your eye on a few high-level trends but even more useful to stay attuned to the processes most likely to drive change swiftly or via intensifying cascades in locally specific ways.
After all, the point of the information is to be able to do useful things. And you can only do useful things with others who roughly share your sense of what the data is saying, overall. This is far, far easier to achieve in local ways with locally relevant information. Which is itself not just a part of why everything will in fact collapse but also a bulwark of sorts.
A group of people who focus on developing a moderately clear, locally well-specified understanding of collapse processes has a pretty good chance of setting a local agenda for adaptation that's both reality-based and pluralistically oriented toward human flourishing (as long as that group itself is so oriented, of course). I see in this tremendous grounds for hopefulness, and it shapes my own approach not only to info-gathering but, equally, to specific forms of local action.
I hope for some variant of that for all of us.
235711@reddit
You're right on. First, there is a spectrum of cohesiveness. Second, humans are on that spectrum due to the tools biology gave us such as spoken language, and third, technology can and has moved us on that spectrum toward the Borg side and away from the every man for himself side.
In my mind, you are missing that there are two types of communication: One, normal everyday two-way communication that holds families and work places together regardless of their beliefs but breaks down as the group grows (factorial) and two, broadcast where one member of a group sends a message to many members of the group but cannot receive a replay back from those many.
You're talking about building an aggregator to gather all the broadcast and sort them by relevance or 'truth', but this is our problem. Nobody is actually talking to anybody else and it's just broadcast from above, all the way down, without any chance of two-way conversation.
Try changing the thought experiment from an aggregator that collects what was broadcast that day, to a facilitator that actually allows for two-way conversations and not just broadcast.
Two way conversations with eight billion people are outside of our biological means but one can imagine a two-way aggregator that not only aggregates what everyone else is saying and summarizes it and weeds out the repetition, but also summarizes anything you say and adds your reply to the aggregator back to those who sent the message. This is a type of two-way communication. It's degraded since replies must be summarized and grouped, but it's not zero like we have now.
My premise is that such a machine will increase the cohesiveness of humanity regardless of individual beliefs, in the same way it increases the cohesiveness of families and smaller groups. Beliefs aren't stopping us from working together, lack of technology is. In the same way we couldn't fly to a destination rather than walking before planes, today we can't organize a group to act as a whole before the invention of this communication tool.
Superfluous_GGG@reddit
I would caveat using collapse with a warning about echo chamber content. For all the good posts we get here, there's a lot of substacks and the ilk that fall far below the quality threshold.
Comfortable-Eye-8391@reddit
I don't think bot nets are being pointed at collapse related subs because the money behind them targets people that are still somehow "on the fence"
No serious collapsnik is on the fence. It's just good business 👉 👉
dumnezero@reddit
There are literally countless people trying to make careers as INFLUENCERS. It's normalized so much that, like Trump openly doing evil shit, it goes uncontested.
Here's an older clip of some of the first influencers: http://www.chrisandluke.com/home.html (no HTTPS so ignore the warning):
This shit was super weird 2 decades ago. Here's the documentary: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD176D4C26516DFC2 there's an updated one, but the old one is still great.
And the clip with them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hi63rXnuWbw&list=PLD176D4C26516DFC2&index=11
knaugh@reddit
everywhere. take in all the information and make up your own mind
Shppo@reddit
some good instagram pages imo: @earthlyeducation @climatelurker @mrmatthewtodd
eco-overshoot@reddit
Mostly books and a few blogs.
There are many places you can read the latest news on energy or tech innovations that are going to "save us", they are mostly completely blind to ecological degradation, resource scarcity, and not aware of how bad the situation with climate change is and the second and third order effects of it (economic collapse, societal and political collapse - good luck scaling your tech when SHTF).
There are many places you can read about various environmental issues and climate change, often offering solutions that are energy blind and do not consider resource limitations either - complete fantasyland also. They also do not seem to understand how unlikely a complete system change is. Oh we all just need to go vegan, stop buying things and do X. Sure - do you understand how unlikely that is, politically, and socially? Do you understand the implications of your suggestions, and why people will NOT choose it voluntarily? The US voted for DONALD F***** TRUMP and to drill baby drill because eggs and immigrants.
A lot of mainstream media attention seems to be on economic and political events. That's the best chance to steer us in the right direction because the audience is large, but I don't see that happening for obvious reasons.
Very few people can see the big picture, and if they do momentarily see it, they will usually go back to living denial because it is very uncomfortable at first. I am completely used to these thoughts now and have accepted that collapse is likely to happen soon, but we don't know when and how, and how we will react to it. I am noticing more people waking up.
SCP-fan-unkillable@reddit
Directly from news media websites instead of content aggregators? It won't help for opinionated/biased publishing, but it won't fall prey to bots and algorithms. Stateline/State Newsroom seems pretty neutral to me.