White Lion was the most unfortunate casualty of the Seattle scene in the 90s
Posted by kjbrandon75@reddit | GenX | View on Reddit | 102 comments
Posted by kjbrandon75@reddit | GenX | View on Reddit | 102 comments
Flimsy-Feature1587@reddit
Hair metal was dying under the weight of its own excesses and shitty songs after GnR slapped them across the face and grunge came along and kicked the door open. Even nostalgia can't get me to go back and listen to a lot of it I used to listen to, mostly because most of the songs lacked any depth and were all contrived outside of the guitar solos. There's only so many "girls, girls, girls, party, party, party, cars, cars, cars" songs someone can take, and the Beach Boys songs were first AND better (vocal harmonies, anyway).
honeybabysweetiedoll@reddit
I personally believe Cherry Pie destroyed 80s rock. The worst song ever.
the__tooth@reddit
Just embarrassingly cringy
Jealous-Network1899@reddit
GnR gets unfairly lumped in with hair metal (which I also love) because of the time period they launched. They were a full on balls to the wall rock band closer to AC/DC and Van Halen than Motley Crue and Poison.
Flimsy-Feature1587@reddit
I agree, which is why I mentioned them separately, also, they preceded grunge by just a bit on the timeline, so that's also why I mentioned them first.
Jealous-Network1899@reddit
Your first post reminded me of a snippet from an old Drew Magary review of Poison. “Nothin’ But a Good Time, which Poison’s 3rd best song about having a good time…”
BrokenPinkyPromise@reddit
If you dig deeper than what was put up on MTV, you might perhaps change your mind on the depth debate.
Flimsy-Feature1587@reddit
I am talking about the popular hair metal bands, not anything more esoteric. I listened to Iron Maiden and Judas Priest in those days for that.
/s
BooRadleysreddit@reddit
I actually really miss shallow rock songs. So much of rock since then is just a bunch of bellyaching about girlfriends and parents. I've got my own problems to ignore, why would I want to listen to a rock star's problems?
Flimsy-Feature1587@reddit
See, I also agree about too much whining as well. This is why my path led me to Billy Strings, Sturgill Simpson, Colter Wall, etc....especially Billy. So many of his songs are reflective or redemptive, uplifting and gratifying on levels besides delving into the depths of angst-driven smells of the spirits of teens, heroin addiction or the aforementioned girls, parties and cars!
RolandSnowdust@reddit
Accurate.
BrokenPinkyPromise@reddit
I’m going to disagree with this. Bratta was a phenomenal guitar player, but the band wasn’t putting out great material after the Pride album.
Most unfortunate? Skid Row. Their first two albums are basically no-skips. Then they changed direction on Subhuman Race to keep up with the trend, and it came off the rails.
There was so much talent in that band.
TankSinattra@reddit
Subhuman Race was a good album. Not as good as Slave to the Grind, but still solid. What made them come off the rails was LSD. They're still putting out good albums generations later but the audience is no longer there.
Low_Wall_7828@reddit
Saigon Kick. They were closer to Jane's Addiction than Poison. Atlantic started an alternative division for them. Then the ballad hits and they're out in a box.
Grok_Me_Daddy@reddit
Isn't hair metal/glam metal just power pop?
WickedTLTD@reddit
I don’t know about all that. They were barely conscious and twitching by the time grunge came along to put them out of their misery.
Financial_Friend_123@reddit
Hair metal couldn't evolve because the glitz and vibe is what made those bands so good. But man was it awesome. I'll be listening to Wait by Whote Lion and that sick guitar solo if anyone needs me.
strange_reveries@reddit
Honestly never saw what the big deal was about hair metal. Never could get into it. As far as I can tell it was a flash in the pan because there just wasn’t much there lol it was (imo) a shallow, mediocre, faddish thing that had its little window of time. It’s not surprising to me that its pinnacle of popularity coincided with the time period when seemingly the majority of the Western world was going out of their mind and off the rails on cocaine lol.
BrokenPinkyPromise@reddit
It lasted a little over a decade. That’s about twice as long as grunge.
Sit down.
BlurryGraph3810@reddit
The kids today listen to grunge and wear grunge shirts. They don't even know what White Lion is. Hair metal lasted so long because record companies propped it up so long despite the audience.
BrokenPinkyPromise@reddit
The kids posting videos of them ripping George Lynch solos on r/hairmetal would disagree with you.
And the kids today who listen to grunge and wear grunge shirts do so because they think it’s counterculture. Which is the bullshit that the record companies sold our generation too.
Sixx said it best. Grunge was basically just metal repackaged to market to depressed, angsty kids.
And I think that’s obvious from the way the two were kind of intertwined in the beginning, before the record companies decided to draw that distinction and push one over the other.
Now…is that to say that Nirvana was anything like Poison? Of course not. But..
Was Mother Love Bone anything like…GNR? Was Alice In Chains influenced by Sabbath - the guys who invented metal? Did Soundgarden open for Ozzy?
I get it. Some of you hated 80’s metal. But let’s not forget that there was overlap with grunge. And let’s not pretend like grunge was this organic movement and not prepackaged for consumption by the record companies.
BlurryGraph3810@reddit
I love Black Sabbath. I love Led Zeppelin. I dig a wide range of metal. Don't like the soulless hair bands.
strange_reveries@reddit
I guess I meant more in terms of cultural/artistic significance and relevance, it had a window, didn’t pan out to be as timeless. Now hair metal seems incredibly dated and one-dimensional compared to the various expressive forms of grunge. I think way more people are still interested in and moved by grunge now than hair metal, even if hair metal enjoyed more mainstream popularity in its moment.
I’m sure it was fun for the people into it lol. Cocaine is indeed a hell of a drug.
BrokenPinkyPromise@reddit
I feel like you’re looking at it through rose colored glasses. Outside of some GenX’ers on Reddit, I don’t know a lot of people who sit around contemplating the cultural significance of either.
And perhaps you’re forgetting what it was like on the ground as it was happening. There wasn’t this big divide between the two until the record companies pressed it.
Alice In Chains was on Headbanger’s Ball, not 120 minutes. Mother Love Bone had more in common with arena rock and hair metal than the genre that would become grunge. Shannon Hoon was in the video of “Don’t Cry”. All of those Seattle musicians were raised on Queensrÿche as much as they were The Ramones or REM.
I disagree that “hair metal” sounds one dimensional and dated. And, outside of Cantrell, there really isn’t a grunge musician who was more talented than most hair metal musicians.
When I reach for music from back then, the ratio is probably 65:35 in favor of 80’s metal - hair metal and otherwise. Maybe that’s just me, but I doubt it.
And you mention cocaine like heroin didn’t derail the careers and lives of countless grunge musicians.
I mean like what you like. I won’t begrudge anyone that. But to claim that one is more impactful than the other is just ludicrous.
Ok-Potato-4774@reddit
With all you've said, I remember the feeling I had just before grunge broke when I was a teenager. My older brother was into some of the glam metal bands. He'd be rehearsing out in the garage, playing keyboards, and many of those bands featured them. The whole MTV rock music scene seemed untouchable, like the gods of Mount Olympus. You had to have years of musical training and the right look, to make it. I even looked through the music magazines, and they featured ads for hair extensions and wigs to get the "rock image". It all seemed very superficial yet enviable.
Then, the fall of 1991 rolls around, and the video for Smells Like Teen Spirit by a little known band out of the Pacific Northwest called Nirvana airs on MTV. A buzz builds around it. It's so far removed from the glam metal in fashion at the time. The music is rudimentary compared to, say, Queensryche. There were only three members in the group. It was rock stripped to its bedrock, much like punk had been fifteen years prior. The video is obviously low budget. The band is clad in cheap jeans, shorts, and T-shirts they probably bought at a thrift store. Everything about it screams: HEY, KIDS! YOU CAN DO THIS, TOO!
I think so many people who never thought they could do music began to form their version of Nirvana then. This never quite seemed possible to my generation, then. Sure, you could form a punk band, but making any kind of living off it was anathema. Nirvana proved that times had changed and it gave hope to kids.
redtesta@reddit
Well said
BrokenPinkyPromise@reddit
As was heroin in the 90’s.
Salty_Pancakes@reddit
Lol. My buddy was a huge Vito Bratta fan. He was always showing these crazy solos he was doing in those songs.
Formerlurker617@reddit
Except just about none of the grunge bands are still around. Metal bands still have successful tours.
Taira_Mai@reddit
Hair metal - rock and pop too- became to samey so when Grunge hit it was a breath of fresh air.
Of course the music industry love to run trends into the ground so by the end of the 90's grunge and "post-grunge" was now processed corpo music.
Much how a beloved dish from another country that's discovered in the beginning of the decade is the unhealthy TV dinner in the latter part of the decade.
furie1335@reddit
The band Firehouse hit big like a week before smells like teen spirit.
The final gasp of hair metal
srgh207@reddit
They got treated bad.
Objective_Piece_8401@reddit
They even asked her not to.
srgh207@reddit
😂
green-stamp@reddit
I read this as FIREHOSE and was momentarily confused
Jealous-Network1899@reddit
Someone once told me that the second Firehouse album was the exact same music, track for track, as their first album, but with different lyrics. I never verified this
arroyoshark@reddit
I was cheering the asteroid on. It was like coming up for air.
whipla5her@reddit
Same. I'm a musician and was playing in bands back then, but I've always said that Hair Metal was the disco of the 80's. A lot of those bands couldn't even play and sounded like shit live. It never had a chance at surviving.
green-stamp@reddit
There had to be a flashy guitarist though. I saw Dokken open up for Aerosmith and I was floored by George Lynch, who fucking crushed. I really had no interest in them but that guy ripped everyone's faces off.
whipla5her@reddit
Oh yeah there was some great musicians but I was surprised at how many shows I saw back in the day that were just awful.
j-endsville@reddit
Yeah, you could say that about a lot of post-Nirvana fake "grunge" bands too. Whole lot of those dudes pivoted in 91.
MargnWalkr@reddit
Grunge was the best thing to happen to music ever. Nirvana broke and almost overnight Poison and the like were completely ignored. Great time to be alive.
Existing-Leopard-212@reddit
I was so sick of hair bands by the time the 80's were done. I sill tolerate very few and like only one. Night Ranger.
Dogzillas_Mom@reddit
I’m down to a handful of songs, but I can only think of a couple Tesla songs I still can enjoy.
Weary-Run-2700@reddit
Alice In Chains was the bridge, the best of both worlds, and one of the greatest bands of all-time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oY625fZ5yQ
Trick-Mechanic8986@reddit
I watched them hold their own in Chicago as Slayer fans heckled then at the clash of the titans. I had Face-lift, so I was one of the few there who even knew who they were. A great memory, great band.
bokbokbokbagok@reddit
I miss Layne. I’m glad Will and Jerry have continued to do work.
Middle school, metro bus to pioneer square, after school, hovering in the alley/parking behind the OK Hotel, catching our first listens to “Love Hate Love”, We Die Young, Sunshine before even owning the Facelift tape.
royalchief558@reddit
Agreed…it made my children cry.
BMisterGenX@reddit
I think grunge was more of nail in the coffin then it was the cause of the end of hair metal. It was dying anyway. I was senior in HS 1990-1991 and people were already starting to snicker at hair metal.
Something to Believe in by Poison went to # 4 in September 1990. Their next single Ride the Wind released in January 1991 went to# 38 and they never had a top ten single again.
Purpleberry74@reddit
Cut me some slack, I was a tween/teen at the time and loved White Lion. I still prefer their Radar Love ducks
BottleAgreeable7981@reddit
Same.
LibertyMike@reddit
I like both, but WL's version is superior.
Im_tracer_bullet@reddit
Yeah, I'm not sure that anyone being objective could legitimately disagree that it's a superior version.
Objective-Badger8674@reddit
No shame - I do too :)
GreatGreenGobbo@reddit
I was/am Nirvana fan more than a Grunge fan overall.
I just felt that rock was pretty much dead as meaningful and interesting music. It was just lame party rock.
One exception was The Cult. The first three albums were amazing.
Sadly after grunge was just noise and faux rage from a rock standpoint. Oh we also got pop punk.
kjbrandon75@reddit (OP)
The Cult was one of the outliers during that period. They weren't considered a textbook hairband because they never fit into that mold. They were their own thing.... and it worked!
ModsKilledMe2x@reddit
Searches I’ve done on the cult put it in the genre “goth rock”
Thirty_Helens_Agree@reddit
I watched PBS’s documentary about disco (highly recommended btw) and two hair metal documentaries on Paramount. The two types of music seemed to follow the exact same pattern:
1) Underground party music from a small group of musicians making music for a niche audience.
2) The music gets more popular and more people start making the same kind of music - it’s still pretty good at this point.
3) Explosion in popularity and tons of musicians start making it.
4) Johnny-come-latelies and other poseurs, together with corporate hacks, start churning out soulless garbage music.
5) Huge popular backlash.
bmiller218@reddit
You should add soundscan (ranking based on actual sales) and hip hop meteors.
trukkd@reddit
Hip Hop was a moon sized impact.
coolcoinsdotcom@reddit
See, this is one of my old pet peeves. We are talking about a style of clothing, appearance and perception, not music. Many of the same bands were around long before and after the 80’s. It’s easy to point at bands that don’t exist any more but a great deal of them are still around and making music.
And this meme makes my point for me (as I see it anyway): so-called ‘grunge’ died off as well as a clothing style but many of those bands are still around (at least in the meme Pearl Jam is still going strong).
So, kinda wondering if people will agree or not. People can be very passionate about their music.
szerdarino@reddit
wait… wait
EstablishmentRich460@reddit
Man I had a White Lion casserole but I can honestly say I couldn't name a song off it today without Googling...
asignore@reddit
They had the best 80’s guitarist that wasn’t named Eddie Van Halen. Bratta is in the Hall of Fame of Underrated Guitarists.
1BiG_KbW@reddit
No one ever thinks about the Screaming Trees.
elijuicyjones@reddit
I certainly do.
dustin91@reddit
Great White Lion Snake
Cyrus_Imperative@reddit
Fronted by Yngwie E. Van Alpine
VirtuaFighter6@reddit
Thank God grunge hit. Exposed hair metal for what it was; derivative, unserious and formulaic.
Fire_Trashley@reddit
I’m often a good few decades behind the times, but I don’t think I’ll ever change my mind on grunge. Can’t stand it. The dissonance, the whiny angst of white teens—like seriously, what was sooooo hard about 80s/90s suburbia?? Give me big hair and rock ‘n roll all night & partying every day over some simp in grandma’s sweater who sounds like nails on a chalkboard.
SojuSeed@reddit
It wasn’t about life being hard, it was coming to the realization of how fucked we all were. We might have been able to articulate it very well at the time but, as a generation, we saw the writing on the wall and the music encapsulated that sense of disenfranchisement and disaffected hopelessness. It wasn’t about ‘life is hard because I grew up in the suburbs’ it was about ‘life fucking sucks, it’s all rather pointless, and we’re all getting fucked.
SojuSeed@reddit
Hair metal deserved to die. It had become, as a genre, what Vince Neil is now. The only sad part is that, with the death of Kurt and the music industry’s desperation to sell next product, they saturated the market with grunge knock offs and by 97-98, grunge was basically dead. Had just a few short years of awesome shit and then it was over.
And to top it all off, Hetfield cut his hair and we got Garage Inc.
ygduf@reddit
I don’t care about record sales or anything like that - whoever made Pearl Jam a bigger asteroid than Nirvana is out of their minds.
Kershiser22@reddit
I like hair metal and I like grunge. And I'm not ashamed to admit either.
VirusOrganic4456@reddit
It's all rock and roll to me, but White Lion was average at best.
Oh__Archie@reddit
I went to middle school with a kid who had all the hair metal band t-shirts but he wore them tucked in to khakis. Everyday, no variation. The only thing I could surmise is that he made a deal with his mom that he could wear any shirt he wanted to, it just had to be tucked in. Pretty sure he had a bunch of W.A.S.P. shirts.
j-endsville@reddit
I knew a dude in high school who wore a white leather jacket and had Axl Rose hair sophomore and junior year. Senior year he turned up with his jacket rattlecanned black, had a haircut, and was wearing Misfits shirts. This was 89/90/91.
j-endsville@reddit
Dang, I did not know White Lion was from Seattle. I was into punk, hair metal, and grunge rock when I was in high school.
False-Minute44@reddit
I always thought Cinderella deserved to transcend the hair metal genre.
SaintNeptune@reddit
This takes me back. Every time Metallica would come up I'd just get a look on my face and say "Nah, I don't listen to hair bands." This led to the inevitable sputtering about how Metallica was not in fact a hair band. I'd follow up with "Have you seen seen them?" while gesturing like I have long flowing hair. "Ok, they HAVE hair, but..." for some reason this was a source of endless amusement for me annoying teenage flannel wearing pseudo punk that I was.
We didn't kill that stuff though. We just stuffed it in a box for a few years. The music industry bided its time and brought their vapid rock back. They had less hairspray of course, but post alt rock it was a return of the hair bands, just without the hair!
kjbrandon75@reddit (OP)
Metallica, Anthrax, Megadeth, and Slayer were known as the big 4 of thrash metal, and therefore were never considered hair metal.
deadweights@reddit
Calling any of those bands “hair metal” in earshot, yeah that wouldn’t have been good.
RoninRobot@reddit
Good riddance.
ElectricTomatoMan@reddit
The singer in my early 90's PNW hard rock band was very into White Lion. My co-guitarist and I loved not having to play virtuouistic solos in order to be a good band. Seattle kicked ass
brookish@reddit
I thought you were referring to Great White (I was not fluent in hard rock) and I thought this was a meta post about actual tragedy!
jmsturm@reddit
Boo for leaving off Alice In Chains
HandleAccomplished11@reddit
Well, AIC was definitely grunge, and from Seattle/Tacoma, but they were a bit "hair metal-ish" before 1991.
ThrowRA--scootscooti@reddit
My thoughts exactly!
Quirky-Pie9661@reddit
I can trace the end of metal back to Metallica’s black album. Just something about it made us know the end was coming for metals golden age. Then Nirvana appeared like the Spaniards at the end of Apocolypto 🪦
LizzieJosephinaBobbo@reddit
I loved "Wait", but I think my all-time favorite is "Tell Me". LOVE White Lion!
MadPiglet42@reddit
Agreed! "Tell Me" is always cranked to 11 when it comes on!
LizzieJosephinaBobbo@reddit
It's truly a banger. I can't help singing when it comes in on our playist
5050Clown@reddit
Metallica cut their hair, Guns and Roses survived.
It wasn't all hair metal, it was a certain kind and it just aged out.
I was cheering that asteroid on.
Schmoppodopoulis@reddit
Screaming Trees and Queens of the Stone Age would care to disagree.
Automatic_Fun_8958@reddit
Seattle grunge didn’t last as long as hair metal.
Doe79prvtToska@reddit
Wait!!!
I_Have_No_Name_00@reddit
That was my favorite Vito Bratta solo
BillDuki@reddit
Wait!! I never got to masturbate!
phyllmar001@reddit
Oh... this brings back bad memories. I am a dinosaur and still feel the burns to this day.
Fire_Trashley@reddit
No kidding
EdwardBliss@reddit
"Wait" always transports me back to that summer of 1987
SuhrEnough@reddit
Vito Bratta is one of the greatest guitarists of the era, regardless of genre. He was phenomenal.