Gangs looting Gaza aid operate in areas under Israeli control, aid groups say
Posted by ODHH@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 498 comments
Posted by ODHH@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 498 comments
ODHH@reddit (OP)
This report confirms reporting from Gaza about the IDF encouraging looting to destabilize the situation.
The IDF has relentlessly targeted any police or Gazan security forces from protecting the convoys but has allowed armed gangs to work under watchful eye of IDF soldiers. There has been numerous reports of hostilities between the gangs and the remains of the police forces in Gaza including reports today of an armed gang being ambushed.
NSFW obviously https://x.com/suppressednws/status/1858640660879802457
lightmaker918@reddit
Gazan security forces.... Meaning Hamas? You do know Gazan police is Hamas.
Lathariuss@reddit
Every government employee in Gaza is employed by hamas. That means absolutely nothing unless they are part of the military wing/brigades.
What youre saying gives israel an excuse to murder any civilian that gets federal wage.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
When Hamas fights in civilian clothes as shown in their own videos, how can you tell if people with arms are Hamas militants or police?
Lathariuss@reddit
Thats the IOFs job to figure out. Which they claim they can.
Now let me ask you a question. When the IOF fights in civilian clothing (like when they dressed as women and doctors to assassinate a patient in their hospital bed), does that allow hamas to kill any israeli with a weapon? Because there is a LOT of them.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
It's their job to figure out?! Wait for them to fire at them before neutralizing them?
Lol is WB an active war zone, where militaries are engaging in daily fire fighting? Does IDF fight in plain clothing in Gaza? A special operation to minimize collateral damage is the same as intentionally avoiding to be identified combatants?
Hamas kills every Israeli they can get their hands on arms or no arms. As evident by their Oct 7 massacre.
You guys are so pathetic, you would go lengths to defend terrorists even when they put Palestinians in danger.
NeonArlecchino@reddit
How have you gone over a year without knowing that hostages were grabbed on Oct 7?
Latter_Security9389@reddit
You really cannot be this delusional to make this point? Tell me you forgot /s.
Hamas taking hostages as an insurance to get some of their prisoners back isn't the same as sparing Israelis.
NeonArlecchino@reddit
It disproves your claim and makes it obvious you're just spreading fear and propaganda.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Your argument is that, Hamas taking hostages was a show of mercy! People are really brainwashed!
NeonArlecchino@reddit
I didn't say anything close to that. I quoted you spreading fear and propaganda by claiming Hamas kills every Israeli they can get ahold of and proved it wasn't true. Whether it was merciful, justified, or anything else wasn't discussed.
FlavorJ@reddit
Clearly there's no room for nuance, hyperbole, interpretation. So then of course you would agree that the arabic "From the River to the Sea" chant is a call for ethnic cleansing, no?
Zipz@reddit
It’s honestly mind blowing how the persons stuck on something so silly
FlavorJ@reddit
Did I say it was silly? I didn't say anything close to that. I commented on the obvious state of discourse and presented an offer for common ground. Whether it was silly, ridiculous, or anything else wasn't discussed.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
What more fear can anybody spread about Hamas after watching them Livestream their acts on Oct 7? They didn't kill them because they were more useful alive for exchanging later. What do you think they would have done if they didn't want to exchange them?
NeonArlecchino@reddit
Did you already forget what you said like you forgot the hostages?
What kind of question is that? There is no purpose to kidnap people without intent to do something with them.
Private_HughMan@reddit
They never said anything about mercy. It just disproves your claim that they killed everyone they got their hands on.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Do you really not think these things in your head before typing them out? Why they took the hostages and if that purpose was fulfilled what would have they done to them?
Once you get your answer, listen to this clip for Hamas' answer
https://youtu.be/hBQ2Psg8HXQ?t=1201&feature=shared
Private_HughMan@reddit
Do you not think before typing these "thoughts" out? I know why they took the hostages. The reasons are irrelevant. You said they killed everyone they got their hands on. If they got their hands on the hundrdes of hostages and didn't kill them, then the statement was a lie.
If you say "I never, ever speed," and then someone shows you a video of you speeding, no matter what your reasoning, your statement was a lie. Saying "I was in a hurry" doesn't negate the statement of fact.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
🤦🤦 why didn't I die before reading this absurdity?!
slickweasel333@reddit
This just proves you're arguing in bad faith. Come on.
911roofer@reddit
Taking hostages is a war crime.
Tw1tcHy@reddit
Lmao imagine actually thinking this is some kind of amazing “Well ACKSHUALLY…” gotcha 😂
steve-o1234@reddit
This is an absolutely delusional response and is (hopefully) not argument made in good faith.
AntiquesChodeShow69@reddit
What a bad faith argument lmao. They take hostages when it’s viable otherwise they just murder whoever they can.
SleepingScissors@reddit
There is loads of evidence of them not bothering elderly Israeli settlers and letting people go during Oct. 7th. This doesn't look like a blood-thirsty A-rab who wants to slaughter every Jew he can find
Latter_Security9389@reddit
You people can't be real! Hamas Livestreamed their massacre but you still refuse to believe it!
https://youtu.be/hBQ2Psg8HXQ?feature=shared
AntiquesChodeShow69@reddit
You’re in the wrong sub bro. People here directly support Hamas, not Palestinians.
Zipz@reddit
That’s the crazy part
They sit here and pretend they care about Palestinian lives and then at the same time support Hamas. No sensible person who actually cares about Palestinians would support them.
In reality it’s they just hate Israelis/Jews
AntiquesChodeShow69@reddit
That’s really all it is. They are so absorbed in being anti-western they will support literally any group that poses as being against the west. Subs like this are just echo chambers full of delusional people propelled by butthurt and lacking any integrity.
SleepingScissors@reddit
Wow, an hour and a half long youtube documentary that does nothing to refute what I actually said. You guys aren't sending your best, is the Hasbara fund running low?
Latter_Security9389@reddit
An hour and a half probably not enough to show you how Hamas killed as many civilians as they could!
I guess someone who says Hamas just let civilians go is delusional enough to ignore everything critical of their world view.
Schuperman161616@reddit
Brother in Christ, did you watch your own video?
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Hostage taking operation, this Hamas fighter must have missed the memo.
"Brother, we don't need hostages, we have a lot already. Kill"
https://youtu.be/hBQ2Psg8HXQ?t=1201&feature=shared
TheCrazyCaveira@reddit
In total, 1,139 people were killed:[j] 695 Israeli civilians (including 38 children),[40] 71 foreign nationals, and 373 members of the security forces.[k][41]
Guys it's okay, 1 Hamas terrorist took a picture with a grandma that equates to them not killing over 700 civilians!! /s
At least the holocaust deniers took about some 40-50 years to start their conspiracies. The oct 7th deniers took 12 months.
roydez@reddit
If that's the case we would've seen a large proportion of dead kids on October 7th. And that's not the case.
CastleElsinore@reddit
Except they killed every kid they got their hands on, and are still holding the Bibas kids hostage.
42 were originally kidnapped as leverage too
Latter_Security9389@reddit
How many children they could have killed that they spared?
roydez@reddit
https://www.timesofisrael.com/14-kids-under-10-25-people-over-80-up-to-date-breakdown-of-oct-7-victims-we-know-about/
According to this breakdown 14 kids under 10 died. If they were indiscriminately killing everyone that number would've been much greater.
The most affected age group was 20-40.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5wel11pgdo
According to this report by the UN the most affected age group in Gaza is ages 5-9.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
I wonder if there was some event nearby where a disproportionate number of people would be young and could have possibly skewed the numbers in the 20-40 range. Who knows 🤷
roydez@reddit
They also reached over 20 towns/kibbutzim/villages. They definitely encountered more than 14 kids.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Kids are not under 10 only.
One of them was a baby under the age of one year — 10-month-old Mila Cohen, killed with her father and grandmother.
According to data by Haaretz, a Bedouin woman at the tail end of her pregnancy was shot in the abdomen while heading to the hospital to give birth, where doctors delivered the baby, but failed to save it.
Additionally, 12 children aged 1 to 9 — 10 boys and two girls — were murdered in the Hamas massacres, according to Walla.
Between the ages of 10 and 19, 36 civilians were murdered, 25 of them male and 11 female.
Let's say your hypothesis is true and Hamas intentionally spares kids, why did they kill these then?
roydez@reddit
Why include age 18-19 which is mandatory enlistment age?
If they were systemically killing everyone including kids more than 14 kids would've died. End of story. We don't even know how many of these 14 were killed by Hamas. They had full control over some kibbutzim and if the goal was to kill kids you would've seen a normal distribution of kids among the killed. Basic statistics and logic.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
You can't take out all 36 because of some who were 18 or 19. According to the UN, 40 children were killed and 36 were taken hostage. So, not an insignificant number even if you look at the killed only.
You don't know the circumstances of how they died for example look at this case:
"In another incident investigated by the Commission, four of the six members of the Even family were killed by members of armed groups: mother Rinat Segev-Even, father Chen Even and their sons 16 -year-old Alon and 14-year-old Ido. Two remaining sons, 11 and 8 years old, survived the attack. According to the Commission’s investigation, the family had been hiding in the safe room of their home in the Vineyard neighborhood when at around midday, militants set their house on fire. The parents decided to take their children and jump out of the window of the second floor of the house. They landed safely and hid under the trees lining the perimeter of their house. At few hours later, militants located them and shot and killed the parents and the two older sons. The two youngest sons hid under their parents’ and brothers’ bodies and survived."
They had no problem shooting kids, the smaller ones were able to hide because they snuck under the bodies.
Report: https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session56/a-hrc-56-crp-3.pdf
roydez@reddit
Funny that you think that "a bigger chunk of deaths was from soldiers" is a gotcha. Even if you take out Nova and battles and look purely at the distribution of victims in the towns/villages/kibbutzim and other places that fell to Hamas the child distribution among the victims doesn't come anything near close to 30% which is their distribution among the population.
This is unlike the genocide in Gaza where the ages 5-9 is the most impacted group and the children and little girl die in proportions like their distribution in the population.
Zipz@reddit
You are focusing on something that doesn’t matter.
Again they killed plenty of children to the point where you can’t say they weren’t targeted.
Again they killed anyone they could get their hands on. Just because their was less children around to die doesn’t mean they weren’t targeted.
Your whole argument is based on a fallacy
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Why not show the numbers and distributions? I already showed you where Hamas had no problem killing a 13 and a 16 year old. Show me the demographics of those places that Hamas occupied and killed other people while sparing children.
Take out the numbers of the rest of the people killed and compare that to children killed. Tell me how much certainty is there that surviving children were spared for sure! Don't just yap about numbers, show the actual numbers.
roydez@reddit
Alright 40 children. That's 3%. Multiply it by 16 and you get Israel's number.
Yeah, definitely not. If they wanted to kill kids more kids would've died and not "miraculously" survive.
Zipz@reddit
They killed anyone they could kids included
You seem confused. Just because their was less kids around to kill doesn’t mean they were spearing them.
roydez@reddit
Yeah... The victims breakdown numbers don't reconcile with that statement sorry to burst your bubble.
Starry_Cold@reddit
> A special operation to minimize collateral damage is the same as intentionally avoiding to be identified combatants?
disguising yourself as civilians is still a war crime
executing wounded militants (who are incapacitated by wounds) is also a war crime.
cutwordlines@reddit
they don't target medical evac choppers when the troops get red triangle'd, so that's already more moral than israeli actions
Hanzel_G@reddit
Please share that official policy paper....
Lamo
That's the only explanation you've got?
Call_Me_Clark@reddit
The U.S. army managed to operate under these constraints in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
I don't remember US army stats in Afghanistan but I don't think the majority of battles in Afghanistan were urban where the population is concentrated like in Gaza. Mosul is a better comparison.
911roofer@reddit
Under international law they’re allowed to slaughter them all. You may not like it, but pretending to be a civilian is a war crime for a reason.
Lathariuss@reddit
I suggest you actually read the international laws and geneva conventions before you speak on them.
Israel violated 12 international laws within 3 days of oct. 7. They violated at least 20 in less than 10 days. I know this because I read the entire documents and listed them all last year. Some are justified under specific conditions of which israel never provided evidence for.
First Geneva Convention: Articles 9, 12, 15. Fourth Geneva Convention: Articles 13, 14, 18, 27,32, 33, 34,49, 55, 58, 59, 89, 91, 107, 108, 132 Protocol I: Articles 15, 17,35,51, 53,54, 56,76, 77,79,81 Protocol 2: Articles 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, II, I3, 14, 10, 18
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Can I say that it’s Hamas’ job to figure out how to reasonably respond to Israeli brakes with the rules of war without themselves braking the rules of war?
Lathariuss@reddit
I doubt youre replying in good faith but fuck it, it depends.
First, do you mean like the peaceful protests they organized in 2018 called the march of return where 200+ unarmed palestinians (including medics) were shot by israeli snipers? Or the diplomatic route like what the PLO have been trying for decades without anyone listening? Or just attacking israel without possibly partaking in war crimes?
Second, do you recognize hamas as a terror group or a resistance group? Both should follow the rules of war but its not exactly a terrorists job to do so. Unless you recognize them as a resistance movement, your point is moot.
Zellgun@reddit
That’s not our problem, that’s the problem for the self proclaimed “most moral army” and if they get it wrong, they will need to pay the consequences.
And no whataboutism about Hamas. Yall claim they’re terrorists so they’re not gonna follow the rules and we should all stop expecting them to.
Israel however claims to not be a terrorist group (despite killing innocent women and children, defending rapists in the military, escorting settler terrorists during their pogroms, killing journalists and aid workers, targeting UN bases) and thus we must maintain their accountability.
So yeah, I do somewhat believe that Israel believes that killed “thousands” of terrorists but there is no indication that those killed were actually terrorists, military trained, part of the brigades. Most likely they were civil servants, bureaucrats with no military training, no protection, out in the open but was targeted because their name was on some Hamas membership list that the Shin Bet beat out of some poor Palestinian janitor working in a Hamas ministry.
The trained, dangerous Hamas militants are the ones that are still arriving, moving around in the tunnels, taking out the invaders and launching rockets. Why do you think the IDF continues to go back into areas they’ve already cleared? Because they’ve been murdering the wrong people for a year.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Ok, if you say so. Hamas is winning! let the war continue!
Zellgun@reddit
There you go ladies and gentlemen. This comment is indicative of the genocidal and extremist rationale that fuels the Israelis and their foreign supporters. This was never about “peace” or security and was always about revenge and violence. They’re just looking for any reason to continue their genocide and protect the terrorists that run Israel.
But sure let the war continue, it will only accelerate the isolation of Israel and the end of the apartheid. Remember Nazi Germany waged war on their neighbors for years, so we must all continue to hold Israel accountable as long as it continues to commit genocide.
CosmicPenguin@reddit
I am once again reminding you that Hamas started the war.
I am once again reminding you that Hamas kills people who try to leave Palestine.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Yeah by deciding to make the state of Isreal in the middle of their own land in the 1940s lol
CosmicPenguin@reddit
Those damn Israelis minding their own business lol
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Honestly if you are going to so dishonest about this conversation go play warhammer and eat your chicken nuggets instead
CosmicPenguin@reddit
Ok then tell me, where are the Israelis supposed to go?
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Not there in 1940s it’s too late now but also you lost the privilege of talking to be by being disingenuous bye. They should end their apartheid regime and integrate into a non ethnostate . South Africa did it they can .
CosmicPenguin@reddit
Deleted comment:
I really don't know where to start explaining that the Israel-Palestine war is not South African Apartheid.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
As I said you cannot have an ethnostate in the modern world it’s disgusting it’s an offence to everyone who has ever fought for justice or human rights. You’re just doubling down here because you’re ok with ethnic groups being Segregated. Nothing I say will make any difference. You just side step any point at all.
CosmicPenguin@reddit
Why would it be too late now? Do you think Jews popped into existence in 1940?
Are you gonna say that and tell me I'm being disingenuous?
SimilarSituation5298@reddit
Lmao do you think people in late 2024 are still ignorant on the history of the occupation to believe that bullshit that hamas started the war?
October 7 happened because Israel is an apartheid regime that controlled an open air prison. And now they are conducting a genocide in that open air prison.
CosmicPenguin@reddit
The city-sized death camp that is simultaneously a cherished homeland.
Or maybe your dad just spent all the food money on shitty rockets again.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Ah you’re just an edgy racist I see
911roofer@reddit
You’ll notice the Nazis had armed guards to prevent people from leaving Auschwitz. Gaza had shopping malls and all the luxuries international aid could buy before the war
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Also now it’s ruins which is also fucked yo so even if we take your view as factual they then destroyed a healthy city to punish its citizens. Wow that’s evil
911roofer@reddit
They destroyed a healthy citizen because that’s where Hamas was launching rockets from. Civilian infrastructure loses its protection when its used for military purposes, but Hamas wants dead Palestinians even more than Israel does. Israel doesn’t care, but, to Hamas, every dead Palestinian is more money in the bank and one less mouth complaining and eating.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
They could have done this in a million different ways dude the bombing campaign was a war crime
911roofer@reddit
By definition it’s not.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Ah yes the morality of technicality. Shame dude
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Both are truly horrific man. Why can’t we hold the IDF accountable too? It’s hypocrisy at the highest levels
911roofer@reddit
Why would they? No one in the middle east is ever held accountable.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Yep especially Israel
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
The holocaust and this are very different both genocidal but in different ways pol pot also didn’t have nazi guards lol. False equivalency isn’t a good argument buddy
911roofer@reddit
Gaza wasn’t a death camp and has never been one. If you had called it a ghetto you might have had a point.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Okay it’s a ghetto . I agree just like the one in poland in Warsaw . You’re really not very good at this buddy you keep scoring own goals. Have you considered your argument might just be wrong?
911roofer@reddit
The Warsaw Ghetto was the worst ghetto in the world. The average ghetto was a center of learning, commerce, and culture.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
This is precisely why there’s rules about Uniforms, so that we can actually figure stuff like this out in some reasonable measure- you even pointed it out;
‘’Maybe Israeli thinks they killed thousands of terrorists’’
It’s quite possible that Hamas- by forgoing uniforms- created a situation where its there fault that civilians are being killed, in equal measure as if they ordered everyone to start wearing Hamas uniform attire.
Also I completely reject the idea that being a terroristic organization or being labeled as one give you a free pass to forgo the rules of war or make it so that it can only be applied one way, all that dose is empower terroristic organization to be able to do more harm as you just created a large set of tactics that would render them operationally immune.
waiver@reddit
They are sniping people waving white flags and kids, they even killed their own hostages while waving a white flag. I think the problem with the IDF is the trigger-happy racism more than anything else.
Zellgun@reddit
Noone said anything about giving terrorists a free pass? I was pointing out the stupid rationale that one side is committing war crimes, so we can commit war crimes in response. One side is a terrorist organization allegedly and will function however the fuck they want. This does not give the other side the freedom to do whatever the fuck they want. I think we both agree with this logic and I apply it even-handedly. Which is why I condemn and call for internal investigations into any war crimes committed on Oct 7th and onwards by both sides.
If mass shooter in America escapes the cops and run into a crowd of civilians, is it okay to open fire on the crowd and then blame the shooter for hiding among civilians? If an armed militant group escapes to an apartment complex in downtown Chicago, booby traps the entrances and forces all the residents to act as human shields. Can we blow up the building and just blame the militants and call it a day?
Can we?
Hamas has military uniforms, we all know what it is, we've seen it in their videos and hostage releases and all their propaganda. Besides since when does this matter? Israel's forces literally raided a hospital dressed as civilians, which was part of the strategy, a practice that is systemic to Israel's military operations.
Why does it only matter when Hamas does it but it's acceptable when Israel does it?
911roofer@reddit
We have laws and rules.
IWantMyYandere@reddit
No. Its very hard to fight morally when your enemy is playing as dirty as possible.
But your comment is exactly the tactic used by Hamas, a terrorist organization. They are just holding out until sanctions hit Israel. This tactic has also beaten the US in Afghanistan.
At the end of the day, the Palestinians are the victims by Hamas and Israel.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
‘that’s Israel problem to handle’ is giving terrorists a free pass by any effective measure- otherwise how do you combat or respond if a terroristic organization dose abuse the rules of war- do you keep identifying your medics if they keep shooting your medics? Do you keep indicating hospitals if they shoot at your hospitals? These are actionable actions within a wartime context.
If one side is not using uniforms- what then? I don’t think the answer should be to kill with abandon- but I think that if one side is abandoning uniforms- then the ‘’consequences’’ within wartime is to frame the results of that as there fault even if it’s 51/100 there fault, IE; Israel get shot at from a crowd and a soldier misidentified a person as the one doing the shooting- Hamas fault as the Hamas militant that was shooting was not utilizing uniform.
The mass shooter in this context to be equivalent have to be actively shooting at civilians and cops alike while running into crowds of civilians- I would say the cops should shoot with the deaths of the civilians in the crossfire being the fault of the mass shooter.
As for the militants- if they are actively firing weapons form that apartment building? Yes, they are at fault, because they put civilians and further civilians in harms way, because to do nothing endangers civilians as well to do something.
If either example have the hostile forces in question not continuing to engage in lethal force- then I am claiming it a apples to oranges comparison.
A singular special force not using uniforms example is equivalent to providing only a few examples of Hamas using uniforms when normally they do not use uniforms. Tho if we are going to be ‘’fair’’, what would be a ‘’fair’’ response to October 7th or the blind firing of munitions form Gaza and into Israel.
By the way as far as I am concerned every single shot that was intercepted by the Iron Dome- was fired with full intentions of effect and with reasonable reason to respond as if that round that was heading to a school but was shot out of the air- actually did hit the school.
LanaDelHeeey@reddit
So basically, “rules for thee but not for me.” Quite literally double standards.
Zipz@reddit
Did you just excuse a war crime and say it’s not your problem ?
IAMADon@reddit
Non-state armed groups aren't required to wear a uniform. Wearing Hamas' bandana, for example, whilst openly carrying an weapon meets the legal requirement. Simply carrying a weapon openly is also enough in certain situations.
Zipz@reddit
Yes because the bandana would be an identifying feature in the situation you are speaking on. It would be considered a pseudo uniform
Hamas does not do that. They wear civilian clothes to purposely blend in with the civilian population to cause more collaterals damage.
Tw1tcHy@reddit
Mmm no, that’s insane clown world shit right there lmao. I expect my friends to generally follow the law, but if someone invades his home, shoots his dog and threatens his family, I’m not going to condemn him for shooting the invader out on the front lawn after the threat has “technically ended” because the invader tried to escape. Deep down most people know how fucking stupid this is.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
That's what's Israel has been doing for decades. Are you defending Hamas here?
Tw1tcHy@reddit
I’m saying that excusing one side for being terrorists therefore you don’t expect anything of them while holding the “legitimate” side fully accountable is a bullshit fallacy. Yeah no, if one side wants to defy all conventions and wage terroristic measures, it’s asinine clown world shit to try to force the other side to abide by every single limitation and fight with one arm behind their back just because the other side “isn’t expected to”. What kind of stupid logic is that?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Which side are you talking about? One is illegally occupying foreign land and opressing an ethnic group under apartheid, the other is trying to fight it with any means. Should both sides be held to the same standart?
Tw1tcHy@reddit
Israel is not foreign to Jews, they’re literally indigenous, continuous inhabitants lmfao.
cesaroncalves@reddit
The indigenous Jews are a tiny minority of Israel's population. You're grouping the invaders and the invaded that didn't get a say in the matter.
Tw1tcHy@reddit
The vast majority of Israeli Jews have significant Canaanite lineage, same as many other ethnic groups in the region, and yes, that includes the “European” Ashkenazi Jews. Immigration is apparently a wonderful way enrich the cultural tapestry in the US and Europe, but in the Middle East it’s an invasion. Gotta love it.
SimilarSituation5298@reddit
What if it was your friend who stole the hose, and that "someone" is the original owner of the house who your friend kept locked in the basement with his entire family?
Tw1tcHy@reddit
Jews are indigenous and have been continuous inhabitants for thousands of years, no house was stolen there 💅
SimilarSituation5298@reddit
5000 years ago.
If that's really logical to you then get out of the us you are living on stolen land that was stolen just 300 years ago.
Tw1tcHy@reddit
You need to learn the definition of continuous.
Yeah, you’re right, all of the hypocrites worldwide should go back where they came from lmao. Less time berating Israelis for setting up a state where they’re originally from and more time practicing what you preach please.
TheCrazyCaveira@reddit
TLDR for those who don't wanna read: I love terrorists and will do mental gymnastics to defend them.
waiver@reddit
Gazan police have uniforms. Also you are trying to justify indiscriminate killing here.
beefprime@reddit
Almost every civilian in Israel is an IDF reservist, does this mean that attacks on Israeli civilians are justified and October 7th was an attack on military targets?
lightmaker918@reddit
You expect them to let random armed individuals roam around while fighting other random armed individuals, who often substitute one role for another? The standard of conduct you expect is ridiculous.
Lathariuss@reddit
These are not my standards. These are the standards of the international community according to international law and the Geneva Conventions.
lightmaker918@reddit
No it's not, you've not even cited the relevant clause, you don't seem to be very familair with either.
Starry_Cold@reddit
They are all going very mask off now.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
Ok doesn’t explain why IDF allow gangs to loot things they are controlling or protecting
lightmaker918@reddit
Since they're busy fighting militants, and policing the local population is not currently their responsibility. That might change as the situation stabilizes, but hopefully it won't be IDF that does that job. It's sitll a very active warzone.
ProbablyNotTacitus@reddit
It’s literally their job under international law as the army occupies an area. But I hear you it’s not exactly easy. However the gangs are linked to militant groups so it’s just very odd all around to ignore them
__DraGooN_@reddit
Who the hell is "Gazan security forces" if not Hamas?
SleepingScissors@reddit
Well considering that Hamas is the entire government of Gaza, from the military (Al-Qassam) to police, to social services, to fucking waste disposal, you might see the problem in claiming that you want to "destroy Hamas" because "Hamas are all terrorists".
Imagine if a foreign country invaded the US and started killing postal workers or census takers because they were "affiliated with the US Armed Forces". Imagine if they started giving out the aid they were forced to deliver to street gangs instead of FEMA because they claim the police providing security is "The US Army stealing aid". That would be kind of fucking ridiculous, no?
blueNgoldWarrior@reddit
This sums up everything. This is the cornerstone of the Israeli farce.
Best_Change4155@reddit
Hamas militants refuse to wear uniforms to distinguish military from civilian members of the government.
blueNgoldWarrior@reddit
Cut the shit. Your pro-genocide propaganda isn’t landing anymore.
You are succeeding in slaughtering and stealing land now in the short term with the protection of America. But you have lost your grip on spinning your false narrative, whatever that means for you in the future we will see.
Best_Change4155@reddit
I recommend you stop inhaling your own farts.
blueNgoldWarrior@reddit
Ooo is someone at a loss for words 😂 Get lost loser
Best_Change4155@reddit
This comment is literally genocide
axeteam@reddit
Most Moral™
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
The Nazis and Imperial Japan was also the government and we had zero problems destroying them
So looks like the idf is doing great and again hamas just needs to surrender
Longjumping-Jello459@reddit
Quite a few Nazis and Imperial Japanese government workers were allowed to be part of the new governments or go to the West for scientific reasons.
tortoisemind@reddit
After they surrendered…
Phnrcm@reddit
Didn't reddit say it is a great injustice and gross how ex-nazis weren't tried and invited to the west instead?
Just find any thread in /til or /history and that is the common thinking.
Patient-Advance-5474@reddit
The Nazis in this case though are the IDF. Palestine was just defending itself from decades of occupation. 🤷♀️
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Completely false. Palestine escalated majorly by invading israel with its 5 arab friends in 1948 to genocide jews.
Then they tried again. On 10/7 so you going to lose land
Patient-Advance-5474@reddit
“Completely false” continues on to spread the most debunkable disinformation.
“The Haifa Oil Refinery massacre took place on 30 December 1947 in Mandatory Palestine. It began when six Arabs were killed and 42 wounded after members of the Zionist paramilitary organisation, the Irgun, threw a number of grenades at a crowd of about 100 Arab day-labourers”
“The refusal of the “Arab League“ to intervene had been a cause of widespread demoralisation of the Palestinian Arab population”
“By mid-May only 4,000 from the pre conflict population estimate of 65,000 Palestinian Arabs remained.”
All of this happened before a single Arab soldier from a neighboring country entered Palestine.
Oh and here just for fun:
Jewish Terrorism and the Modern Middle East
Just-another-weapon@reddit
If you are getting your standards of acceptable behaviour from the time in human history that brought us the Holocaust then you are truly lost.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Except both the allies AND the idf is destroying genocidal terrorists
historicusXIII@reddit
German admin was filled with former Nazis after the war.
Best_Change4155@reddit
Maybe the military members of Hamas can wear uniforms, to distinguish themselves from the civilian side?
123yes1@reddit
I mean yeah but that is also how most wars go when you take control of enemy territory.
If Canada invaded the US, and annexed Wisconsin, it would be pretty stupid of them to allow US tax collectors and post workers and other federal government employees to operate like normal. Those employees are loyal to the US, not to Canada. Canada would either fire everyone and then fulfill these services with their own personnel (if the Wisconsin natives are hostile to their Canadian overlords) or tell federal employees conquered in Wisconsin that they work for Canada now (if Wisconsin natives are more amicable to their Canadian liberators).
Israel should not let Hamas continue to provide government services in areas it controls in Gaza, as they undermine the control that Israel has established in those areas. But many of those services are necessary (like policing) that Israel needs to perform in the territory it controls.
Israel is not being Immoral for removing non-military Hamas agents from power (although firing non-combatants by shooting them would definitely be immoral), but the immoral act that Israel is committing in this regard is their failure in their duty of care towards the Gazans in the regions it controls.
Israel, as the controlling power in the region it occupies, has a duty of care to the population it occupies, which currently Israel is badly failing. Both in terms of adequately supplying occupied regions with food and other necessities, and in terms of providing security to access and distribute that food and other necessities.
kremlinhelpdesk@reddit
Did Israel annex Gaza?
Srinema@reddit
Not yet, if we want to be pedantic
Killeroftanks@reddit
actually countries do that.
in fact its the correct way of occupying the area is to use local groups to carry out daily things. like for example after ww2 germany was occupied by the allies, guess what happened to the police force in germany? kept around because the allies couldnt handle everything a cop does. the only thing an occupying force does, is remove the military, and even then sometimes they would just keep the military but replace the command system with one that views them more favorably.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Given hamas fighters are everywhere among the civilian population of course that makes deep food distribution risky. So the trucks are sent to a certain extent.
Again hamas unconditionally surrendering would resolve these issues and rebuilding including this distribution system can start
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
It would be insane unless the USA started to order it’s postal workers to engage in military operations, plus postal workers and military members have distinctive uniforms, last I check Hamas don’t utilized uniform as a entire doctrine decision.
I doubt Hamas had been keeping its ‘’branches’’ apart in such a manner, tho I am open to be proven wrong.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
The armed wing of Hamas has a uniform, even Sinwar was wearing one when he died,
Hamas is not the only armed group in Gaza but that’s a level of nuance that I don’t expect most people to grasp.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Do they use this uniform when they preform military operations in Gaza?
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Yes they do, at a minimum they wear a headband.
https://x.com/asawinstanley/status/1721889142228050397
https://x.com/upholdreality/status/1848418140885324190?s=46
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Ok- there are Hamas units/times that they utilize uniforms. You proven that.
Tho I find it interesting how it’s only now I even seen people arguing that they had been using uniforms, for months I been pointing out the uniform issue and I kept getting ‘’that’s Israel to figure out’’ or something to that effect.
I remember the October 7th video showed a significant lack of uniforms
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Most people have no idea what they’re talking about.
The majority of Palestinians who crossed into Israel on October 7th were not Hamas they were opportunists.
The Hamas fighters who entered Israel wore full uniforms.
https://x.com/muhammadyo95978/status/1783737503083590043
https://x.com/mo_salah83685/status/1794700385443312087
https://x.com/d1mashqi/status/1712891480589693021
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Then Hamas should had engaged in better operational security and instantly given over all those involved who wasn’t apart of Hamas, or even not done October 7th as Hamas themselves had kidnapped- and thus was targeted- Israeli Civilians.
Taking hostages- especially civilian hostages- especially trying to bargain with those hostages- is a violation of the rules of war.
No- prisoners are not hostages- yes I agree that Israeli need to stop the Gratamino Bay nonsense.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Hamas offered back all of the civilian hostages in exchange for Israel not invading Gaza but Netanyahu refused.
Hell PIJ a different armed group offered the Israelis back two civilian hostages on October 8th or 9th in exchange for nothing but Israel refused to stop bombing for a few minutes to collect them. They were later released with the other hostages during the only hostage exchange that took place but they could have gone home immediately.
LanaDelHeeey@reddit
You’re forgetting the part where that deal was conditional on the release of all Palestinian terrorists in Israeli custody. That’s not happening.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
No that was for the non civilian hostages I’m talking about only the civilians.
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
Hamas should had given back the hostages without any demands. At least the civilian ones.Hamas shouldn’t had taken hostages to begin with.
I will agree that Netanyahu was waiting for a excuse- that dose not excuse Hamas from giving hem one on a silver platter
StarliteStandard@reddit
So you must have a source and pictures for such said uniform? And no Hamas members have ever conducted military operations without such said uniforms?
SleepingScissors@reddit
Right, I'm sure you have tons of proof that Gazan aid workers are being "ordered to engage in military operations", totally not a bullshit claim you pulled out of your ass.
Considering that Israel deliberately targets doctors, journalists, and aid workers I don't think you get to use the excuse "but how are we supposed to know who's Hamas". You clearly don't care either way.
"I have no proof for this statement I made, but it's probably true because my argument falls apart if it's not"
ForgetfullRelms@reddit
It would be easier to determine if Israel cares- or more accurately- harder for Israel to deny claims of abuse if Hamas utilizes uniforms.
Phnrcm@reddit
If you think the main functionalities of Hamas are social service and waste disposal i have a bridge to sell you.
thisnamewasnttaken19@reddit
If you had said Tunnel instead of Bridge I might have believed you.
NonsensicalSweater@reddit
Except Hamas has been known to steal aid for decades, while America gives the most aid out of any country in the world,
"Gaza: UN suspends aid operation after second Hamas-linked theft of supplies
6 February 2009 – The main United Nations relief agency responsible for feeding 900,000 Palestinian refugees in Gaza today suspended all imports of desperately needed aid after Hamas confiscated hundreds of tons of food, the second such seizure in three days."
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-209885/
When Japan attacked the US at pearl harbour 68 civilians were killed, their response to Japan killed over 2 million civilians, you really think none of them were postal workers?
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Considering hamas hide in with civilians of course its tricky and risky to supply food all the way.
Again hamas unconditionally surrendering can cause aid to be reached everywhere
Schuperman161616@reddit
Get a load of this European
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
It's like you hamas has problems with communication
Schuperman161616@reddit
I'm Khhhhhhhhamas
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
good luuuuuuuuuucccckkkkk
SZEfdf21@reddit
They're police forces under the Hamas government. How guilty they are because of that fact is up to anyone to guess since we don't really know.
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
Oh yes, this is conclusive proof of the "Israeli-backed" gangs whose purpose is to "destabilize" probably the least stable place on earth right now.
Incredible.
SpinningHead@reddit
Yeah, weird that the cowards that have flattened everything and want the land would also facilitate starvation. Most moral army.
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
Yeah and take a year to execute a starvation campaign while simultaneously facilitating tens of thousands of aid trucks and vaccines lol.
Absolutely diabolical!
SpinningHead@reddit
https://www.propublica.org/article/gaza-palestine-israel-blocked-humanitarian-aid-blinken
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
Try making a sentence.
Tw1tcHy@reddit
Holy fuck the people in Gaza must have been fat as fuck or well stocked, I’ve been hearing about their imminent starvation and famine for a whole god damn year now lmao. Somebody please, make it make sense.
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
And/or, adequate aid is getting in, despite all of the aid agencies saying otherwise.
I wonder if they'd have any reason to exaggerate the conditions. Couldn't have anything to do with increased donations, could it?
black_flame1700@reddit
Israel is the worst country to trust with anything, first they say they’ve destroyed hamas in northern gaza then they say they can’t let aid into northern gaza bc hamas is stealing the aid then we find out hamas is actually doing the opposite. None of this should be surprising to anyone.
The idf stands around and watched as violent illegal settlers in the west bank attack innocent palestinian farmers so what makes you think they wouldn’t back gangs stealing aid? Anything that hurts the palestinian population the IDF protects.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
Worse than than rapists and murderers of Hamas who do not give a flying fuck how many Palestinians die as long as it makes the nine o'clock news?
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
If even 5% of the civilian casualties in Gaza were a result of Israel going too far, with the other 95% being legitimate collateral damage from aiming at military targets, then that actually would make them worse in a sense. As 5% of the civilians they've killed would be more than all of the civilians killed by Hamas.
The B'tSelem report and various whistleblowers and leaks suggest they're also torturing and abusing more Palestinians than the number of people Hamas kidnapped, and back in August those leaks said at least 60 Palestinians have died in Israeli detention since the war began, so they may also be worse in how they treat captives.
dvirpick@reddit
That's not how this works because Hamas killing fewer civilians is not for lack of trying.
Imagine if on Oct. 7th every Israeli civilian had a temporary protective forcefield around them, and so Hamas attacks and gets 0 civilians. What then? If Israel attacks and goes too far by even one civilian, you would say that they are worse than Hamas?
Intent matters. Israel invests in protections for its civilians, with various defense systems and shelters. Hamas is taking measures to ensure that as many Palestinian civilians die. A sizeable portion of the 95% in your hypothetical would be Hamas' fault.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
It is if you think the consequences of your actions have any relation to the morality of them. For example, most people would not think someone who decided to try to kill 3 billion people but actually killed two people before being shot by the police is worse than Hitler. They'd think Hitler is worse because he succeeded in killing millions.
In terms of the consequences, yes, if the death was a result of Israel killing people unnecessarily. But it's also too preposterous a hypothetical to make much sense. It suggests a world where Hamas aren't actually much of a danger because Israel has access to technology that renders them invulnerable, and so in that circumstance the self-defence was far less necessary.
We don't really have any idea how often that happens, because there's almost no evidence to support the claims about Hamas forcing civilians to stay in buildings to try to dissuade attacks. But maybe some of it could be attributed to them, yes. I sincerely doubt it outweighs the number of civilians killed as a result of Israel considering a building to be a military target so long as it contains building materials, though.
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
My brother in Christ, the Israelis literally rioted in the streets to force the release of Israeli soldiers who were caught raping women in Gaza.
ImAjustin@reddit
Using like 1 random example of like 50 extreme right rioters as any indication of thought or israel belief is just anecdotal at best.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
The comment above is a bit off I think, because the rape was of a male Palestinian prisoner and didn't happen in Gaza. But the grain of truth there is that in that case a majority of Israelis do oppose the rapists facing criminal charges:
https://mondoweiss.net/2024/08/65-of-israeli-jews-oppose-criminal-prosecution-for-soldiers-suspected-of-raping-palestinian-detainees/
ImAjustin@reddit
Mondoweiss is a terrible source. But even in the article you sent, they still want them punished. I wouldn’t say they actively support it in any way.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
They want them to be "disciplined", which is functionally identical to not being punished because it carries no chance of a real punishment such as prison time. It's not the same as actively supporting the practice of rape, but it is the same as saying that you do not consider rape of prisoners to be a punishable offence. Similar to the difference between legalising and decriminalising drugs I suppose.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
Some Israelis, most did not.
Or would you say that the Gazans coming out to play with the corpse of Shani Louk were representative of the people of Gaza?
Tw1tcHy@reddit
I would. Hell of a lot more Gazans out on the streets celebrating the carnage and desecrating dead Israeli bodies, beyond just Shani Louk. The whole world saw the result of what happens when you deeply infect a culture with ideals of jihad, martyrdom and total destruction of your enemy that day.
roydez@reddit
The rapist is not in jail and is brought as a celebrity on late night television.
Standard_Ad_4270@reddit
Not just that. A Palestinian doctor was raped to death in Israel’s torture camp.
Beagle_Knight@reddit
Are your parents cousins?
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
😂
High chance!
Unable_Duck9588@reddit
Are you an idiot?
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Brother, if it’s happening in Gaza, it’s happening at the LEAST with Israeli awareness. If not outright tacit support.
The entire Gaza Strip is 141 square miles. It’s without any exaggeration the single most surveillance place on earth. Between fixed observation towers, SIGINT, drones, and satellites, Israel has COMPLETE awareness of what’s occurring there.
If aid trucks are being looted, they know who is doing the looting. It’s been used as justification for countless documented incidents of civilians being shot on/around aid trucks.
You can’t have it both ways. Israel has spent the last year bombarding us with drone videos used to justify the bombing they’ve done. Citing “intelligence” and especially video surveillance as the reason they’ve selected a building or vehicle for destruction.
So, which one is it? Do they have full surveillance over Gaza or not?
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
I wouldn't mistake "not caring" for complicity.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
When it’s an area under your complete military surveillance and control, yeah I’d consider those two things to be synonyms.
Do you ever actually read Israeli media? Or just what trickles through to Western sources?
Who said anything about 4D chess, Bibi SAID ALL OF THIS OUT LOUD my dude. He was very clear about his intentions to bolster Hamas at the expense of Fatah, specifically in order to ensure a two state solution never materializes.
Do better. Learn more.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-20/ty-article-opinion/.premium/a-brief-history-of-the-netanyahu-hamas-alliance/0000018b-47d9-d242-abef-57ff1be90000
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
I'm just not into this Netanyahu evil mastermind framing of the Oct 7th attacks. Hamas decided to start this conflict off their own backs, unless you mean to suggest Netanyahu was in that meeting with an extremely convincing beard or something?
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Nobody said anything about Oct 7th.
What I said is that Netanyahu made a distinct and conscious decision to allow the creation and funding of Hamas as a political entity in Gaza.
This is a flat out fact. Go read the Haaretz link in my last post for a pretty decent overview. I am in no way claiming that Bibi knew about Oct 7th, or wanted it to happen, or any such conspiracy theory.
But again: let me emphasize over and over. Hamas exists in Gaza because of a political decision by Bibi to use them to help kill the two state solution. Not conjecture. Fact.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
yeah and its part of the same argument that everyone uses to state that everything is Israel's fault.
My apologies, I simply assumed that was coming up next.
Sure but their people also voted them in, so we're erasing agency again.
Pm_me_cool_art@reddit
The vast majority of Gazans a) were not alive or of voting age when Hamas won the elections or b) were alive and either voted against Hamas or abstained from the elections. Hamas won less than half of the vote.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
sure but some gazans at some point did, its part of the story that gets us to today. Everyone does stuff and they get to choose what stuff they do. Sitting at the end and stating its all down to one bloke is erasing a lot of choices from a lot of people.
Pm_me_cool_art@reddit
You're being laughably dishonest here by framing Hamas as the collective responsibility Gazans on one hand but referring to Netanyahu like he's just some guy and not the longest serving prime minister in Israeli history.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
ok, Likud and their bullshit coalition.
Netanyahu gets the flak because so many are convinced he's prolonging the war to avoid his own trial for the corruption charges.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
> yeah and its part of the same argument that everyone uses to state that everything is Israel's fault.
Not everything. Just war crimes in Gaza. Kind of a lot of area between those two spheres.
> Sure but their people also voted them in, so we're erasing agency again.
Yes, who has more agency about what happens in Gaza? Your choices are:
A) The Prime Minister of the nation whose military is in complete control of every facet of life in Gaza. The border, the coastline, the airspace. Whether there is water. Whether there is electricity. Whether food imports are allowed across the border.
B) A random Gazan civilian, who voted in a single election, once, during the George W. Bush administration
Please, please, please keep fucking lecturing me about agency erasure. Jesus christ.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
to be fair taking civilians hostages is also a war crime. I agree with the ICJ position of warrants for both leaders.
You're framing it insincerely. Hamas themselves have equivalent agency to Likud. Most citizens alive today were not able to vote for Hamas back in 2006. However putting everything at the foot of Israel erases the agency of all the other people who got into this present shitty scenario where the leaders of the two political parties with the most agency want nothing more than the opportunity to kill each other and achieve "complete victory".
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
I don't even know what to say to that. Are you claiming with a straight face that the negotiations between Hamas and Israel are basically a meeting of equals? Surely, you are taking the piss right now.
Not just most. SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT. And Hamas didn't even win a fucking majority in that election, they won 44% of the vote. So, back of the envelope just 11% of the current population voted for Hamas in 2006.
You are so close to getting it with that line there. And then you just go spinning off into "agency" land immediately afterwards.
He said agency again! Drink!!!!
You're obsessed with "agency" but can't bear to type a single acknowledgement of the facts on the ground in Gaza.
Who controls the land borders of Gaza?
Who controls the airspace of Gaza?
Who controls the coastline of Gaza?
Who controls the internet in Gaza?
Who controls the water supply in Gaza?
Who controls the internet in Gaza?
Who controls telecommunications in Gaza?
Who controls the ability to hold elections in Gaza?
Who controls what food aid is allowed into Gaza?
But let's ignore all that! We really need to focus on the "agency" of the Palestinians in this situation. Because of a single election held in 2006, at the behest of Netanyahu because he *knew that Hamas would win and it would help him politically*.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
They are the two political entities that controlled their respective regions prior to the conflict, so yes. Compared to an arbitrary civilian of either nation they're more comparable.
and who controls the decision to escalate a conflict by using what little they have, to aggressively attack someone that is obviously going to do what has happened in the past year to you?
Who decides to take civilians hostages and murder them indiscriminately in their homes? Nobody had to do that. Hamas chose to. The Hamas leadership chose to holiday in Qatar while their people died and starved while refusing to surrender.
In the same vein the IDF and Likud also decided to commit war crimes in response to the war crimes committed in Israel, and its not Hamas's fault they committed those war crimes. There were many different approaches the Israeli administration could have chosen in response to the attacks and they chose pretty much one of the most violent options.
Doing the stupid thing that helps Netanyahu politically is still doing the stupid thing that helps Netanyahu politically. Unless we can prove that Hamas were in cahoots with Likud to organise the October 7th attacks, its not a valid criticism.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Sure. But that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing whether Israel/Hamas is a negotiation between parties of equal strength. Clearly that's not the case. On what basis are you claiming that Hamas is an "equal" of Israel?
Israel is a nation state. Israel is nuclear armed. Israel receives tens of billions of dollars in direct US military aid. Israel has an Air Force.
Hamas is state sponsored, sure, but far from being anything close to an actual nation state. They don't have an actual standing army, let alone an Air Force. There's just no comparison.
So you concede the point that Israel is committing war crimes? It sure sounds like you're trying to argue about whether it was strategically smart, or ethical, for Hamas to have launched the Oct 7th attacks. That's not the issue at hand here.
Your analogy is that Palestine is a guy trying to burn his hand on a hot stove, and Israel is the guy who refuses to burn himself trying to restrain Palestine. In reality, the room didn't even have a stove in it until Netanyahu put one there, along with a ton of signs advertising how great stove touching is.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
They're the primary belligerents in the conflict.
I never fucking argued it. I take the stance of the ICJ.
No. I mean if Netanyahu intentionally got Hamas into power so they would attack Israel so Israel could stomp on them like bugs then Hamas still has to choose to attack Israel in order for that plan to work.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
TIL that when the United States invaded Grenada it was a battle between equals, because they were the primary belligerents in the conflict.
You're fundamentally unserious. Goodnight.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
in that context yea, compared to a Granadan or American citizen. When two political entities decide to use violence to achieve their aims then they become comparable. Idk what's hard about this.
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
Pedantic I know, but it's actually a bit less than that because turnout was around 75%.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Thank you for catching that. So it's pretty definitely less than 1 in 10 current Gazans who could have voted for Hamas nearly 20 years ago.
SleepingScissors@reddit
Nobody said anything about Oct. 7th, you guys are literally incapable of actually arguing about anything, you twist words and deliberately misinterpret them because you can't address what's being said directly. He talked about Netanyahu deliberately funding and supporting Hamas to destabilize Gazas future peace negotiations (a fact) and you go "Oh so he's a supergenius that planned October 7th?" Are you allergic to honesty?
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
my apologies, I am simply used to that being the following reach.
self-assembled@reddit
NYTimes reported that the IDF unexpectedly told the entire convoy to move in a day early, gave them just 30 minutes notice, and unexpectedly changed their route in a very specific way which detours from the aid warehouse.
So yeah, the IDF did this on purpose.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
isn't it simply possible that they're being outfoxed by the looters, giving they likely give it very little attention and the looters give it 100% of their attention?
Leaving early via a familiar route might just be them attempting to "outfox" the looters and failing. Ultimately its their responsibility and its obviously sus af given they have been strangling the supply of aid.
self-assembled@reddit
Assuming there are looters, they wouldn't know what the UN and the IDF are planning outside Gaza. So the IDF could have planned this with the UN, without a 30 minute notice, and still been trying to "outfox" looters.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Seriously though? Erasing agency?
You’ve got a literal prison state surrounded on all sides by the most complex border surveillance on planet earth, but you’re going to deny the Israelis agency over what happens in the territory they control? It’s hilarious.
Let me guess. You believe the IDF wholly when they cite intelligence justifying the bombing of an entire apartment building to kill a Hamas operative. But then will simultaneously claim Israel has no knowledge at all about what’s happening to the aid shipments once they cross the border.
Both of those things can’t realistically be true.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
yeah. I see it a lot. People wanna blame something solely on one party so they start framing decisions that could have been taken either way as:
or smth.
The only time I wholly believed the IDF was when they admitted to shooting their own hostages accidentally but that's only because I couldn't fathom a reason why they would lie about it.
I just think the IDF don't care about the aid, nor do they want any other approved defence forces to operate in Gaza at the moment. Combined with the negative press they got when they defended the conveys themselves we're left here.
Its shit, they should defend the conveys but you can bet that if Biden or whoever convinces them to give a shit about Palestinians for a hot moment that as soon as they shoot someone over it then the articles reporting on it will identify the victims as Palestinians as opposed to gangs of looters.
BlackJesus1001@reddit
The IDF triple tapped the fucking world kitchen aid convoy because they thought that a single Hamas grunt MIGHT have been on it.
You're telling me they'll wipe out a clearly marked western NGO convoy to kill a hitchhiking Hamas member but they aren't capable of identifying or targeting these groups of people stealing aid (who are also allegedly Hamas)
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
ya they tetchy.
I think its more they don't care.
article actually states:
nothingpersonnelmate@reddit
It's not really "tetchy" because that implies reacting to something, whereas this was pro-active and extremely careless at best. We also have little way of knowing how many other times they've done this. We only hear about it when the victims are foreigners who can't be painted as "probably Hamas", like the WCK staff or the MSF convoy, but the vast majority of humanitarian workers there are local Palestinians. It's plausible that hundreds have been killed this way, firing based on extremely poor information and guesswork about theoretical links between a guy with a gun and different vehicles somewhere else at a different time or whatever.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
they're always tetchy on absolutely everything. They drag their heels on absolutely everything and act like everyone is out to get them.
probably most of the the time. In this case it sounds like a case of malicious compliance, if they were intentionally planning to move the convey into the looters hands.
BlackJesus1001@reddit
Don't be coy, you know full well the IDF have been claiming that Hamas are stealing aid for months.
Care about aid getting through? Obviously not, but if it was Hamas robbing these convoys at gunpoint they would care about that surely given their current run of targeting anyone even remotely tied to Hamas.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
They stated that Hamas was denying access to aid, not looting it.
Yes, which is why its believable when the article states that the looters are rivals of Hamas.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Didn't IDF airdrop cigarettes sometime in summer?
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Cigarettes, a good that is famously non-consumable. You can just ship some in, and they'll address demand indefinitely because nothing happens to them!
Latter_Security9389@reddit
You are missing the point, cigarettes are a high tax item and Hamas benefits greatly from selling them and they are not some humanitarian aid that Israel will get criticism for blocking. So, I think it makes sense to block them.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
The position you continue to try and defend remains nonsensical on its face. If the IDF is worried about Hamas getting funding from cigarette sales, how the does spiking the price to a $24 *per cigarette* hurt them?
What's the next talking point to shoot down?
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Did you read the article? The crime gang is not under Hamas so they are not benefiting from the higher price, the gang is. Black market is better as it means they can avoid tax, that would otherwise go to Hamas.
JaThatOneGooner@reddit
Ah yes, just what the kids need, nicotine and NOT food.
Latter_Security9389@reddit
Do you guys really not read the previous comments before replying?
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
Whooooosh
JaThatOneGooner@reddit
I don’t think you’re using it right
CosmicPenguin@reddit
And now that he's doing something about that, you're accusing him of genocide.
Strange.
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
If it's happening in areas Israel control and occupy, it's their fucking problem. Next you'll tell me IDF and Israel aren't responsible for illegal settlements in the West Bank because they're only watching and pointing their guns while the settlers throw people out of their homes to steal them.
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
Yes you're right. Everything is Israel's fault.
ImAjustin@reddit
Read it the same way. No matter what happens, israel is to blame, israel fault, israel bad. Every single situation, israel os wrong
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
I stubbed my toe this morning on my bedpost and that was also Israel's fault!
ODHH@reddit (OP)
These are the same people who let Palestinian babies die in incubators, why would letting armed gangs loot be shocking?
Admirable-Spread-407@reddit
I know. The connection between the two incidents is so obvious.
MoistDonald@reddit
It’s almost like those “armed gangs” aren’t at war with the IDF so the IDF doesn’t kill them and a certain crowd can’t decry the exact opposite of what they are decrying now
Super-Base-@reddit
Israel wants the refugees in gaza to starve but it also wants to appear like it’s not at fault and providing aid. This is the perfect solution for them.
gravygrowinggreen@reddit
Turns out there's no ethical way to commit genocide.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Non paywall link: https://archive.ph/Ccuek
CAIRO — As Gaza’s hunger crisis worsens, organized gangs are stealing much of the aid Israel allows into the enclave, operating freely in areas controlled by the Israeli military, according to aid group officials, humanitarian workers, transport companies and witnesses.
Officials said criminal looting has become the greatest impediment to distributing aid in the southern half of Gaza, home to the vast majority of displaced Palestinians. Armed bands of men have killed, beaten and kidnapped aid truck drivers in the area around Israel’s Kerem Shalom crossing, the main entry point into Gaza’s south, aid workers and transport companies said.
The thieves, who have run cigarette-smuggling operations throughout this year but are now also stealing food and other supplies, are tied to local crime families, residents say. The gangs are described by observers as rivals of Hamas and, in some cases, they have been targeted by remnants of Hamas’s security forces in other parts of the enclave.
An internal United Nations memo obtained by The Washington Post concluded last month that the gangs “may be benefiting from a passive if not active benevolence” or “protection” from the Israel Defense Forces. One gang leader, the memo said, established a “military like compound” in an area “restricted, controlled and patrolled by the IDF.”
Aid organizations say Israeli authorities have denied most of their requests for better measures to safeguard convoys, including appeals for safer routes, more open crossings and permission to allow Gaza’s civilian police to protect the trucks. Israeli forces within view of the attacks have also failed on multiple occasions to intervene as looting was underway, aid workers, U.N. officials, transport workers and truck drivers say.
The Israeli military has denied the allegations, saying in a statement that its troops have carried out “targeted countermeasures” against the looters “with an emphasis on targeting the terrorists and preventing collateral damage to the aid trucks and the elements of the international community.” The IDF is “working to enable and facilitate the transfer of aid,” the statement added.
How we report on what’s happening in Gaza
Like other news organizations, we are not able to report from the ground in Gaza because Israel has denied journalists access to the enclave, with the exception of military embeds. Our reporters and contributors — including journalists from Gaza — talk to residents, doctors and aid workers by phone and text message, corroborating their accounts through multiple sources, visual forensics and other tools.
In the latest major incident, 98 out of 109 trucks carrying U.N. food aid from Kerem Shalom were ransacked by armed men overnight Saturday, according to U.N. humanitarian agencies and Gaza businessman Adham Shuhaibar, who had eight trucks in the convoy. The looters shot at the trucks and detained a driver for hours, Shuhaibar said. A statement from UNRWA, the U.N. agency for Palestinian refugees, said the attack caused “injuries to transporters” and “extensive vehicle damage.”
Muhannad Hadi, U.N. humanitarian coordinator for the occupied Palestinian territories, said “Gaza is basically lawless. There is no security anywhere.” Israel is “the occupying power,” he said, so “this is on them. They need to make sure that the area is protected and secured.”
This story is based on more than 20 interviews with representatives from a range of international aid organizations, Palestinian businessmen involved in the transport of goods, and witnesses to attacks on humanitarian convoys. Many spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid jeopardizing their access to Gaza or the safety of their staff. The Post also reviewed previously unpublished U.N. documents on the scale of the looting crisis and spoke with the gang leader aid groups believe is the main culprit behind the attacks.
slickweasel333@reddit
That's a load of horse dung. Even the UNRWA has admitted their shipments have been seized.
waiver@reddit
Does it counts as admitted when the UNRWA deleted that tweet and posted:
"With regards to reports on social media of looting of an UNRWA warehouse. UNRWA would like to confirm that no looting has taken place in any of its warehouses in the Gaza Strip. The images circulating on social media were of a movement of basic medical supplies from the UNRWA warehouse to health partners."
slickweasel333@reddit
You asked the same question of me in another separate thread, and I explained this to you.
That's not a retraction, that's saying "Our aid got stolen en route from the warehouse on the way to it's destination. The warehouses are still safe." I don't know know how you got anything else from that statement, especially a retraction.
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/pWkz0FNRrI
waiver@reddit
You didn't explain anything to me, you completely misunderstood the original tweets and the retraction. I mean, in what part do they mention the aid was "on route to somewhere"? That's something you completely made up.
The UNRWA is denying in clear language that any looting happened and you go "ackchyually what they meant was that [completely made up stuff]"
slickweasel333@reddit
https://web.archive.org/web/20231016132013/https://twitter.com/UNRWA/status/1713887016134295977
They are describing where the robbery actually happened, on the road, and that the warehouses are still safe.
waiver@reddit
Where exactly do they mention a road in that statement? They clearly assert that no looting occurred and that medical supplies were appropriately handed over to health partners, specifically the Ministry of Health. There is no reference to a 'road' or 'en route' anywhere in the text, neither explicitly nor implicitly. How could one derive such a conclusion from the given information?
Well, not according to the UNRWA it didn't happen.
Your other incidents were one that happened in 2009 and another one that shows Gaza police escorting aid trucks something that was supported by the aid organizations and the US Department of State.
slickweasel333@reddit
Who are Gaza police? Hamas, right? And what is your source that this was supported by the US DoS?
Are you talking about this clip, that shows armed hamas members riding on top of aid trucks?
https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-ministry-interior-palestinian-civil-defense-secures-aid-convoy-gaza
waiver@reddit
Yes, that's how they escorted the trucks. Mind you no idea why you use MEMRI as a source when they have a LOW CREDIBILITY rating.
The aid organizations:
NGOs say Israel targeting Gaza police helps looters of aid
https://www.rfi.fr/en/middle-east/20241115-ngos-say-israel-targeting-gaza-police-helps-looters-of-aid
The US Government
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-said-to-ask-israel-to-stop-targeting-hamas-police-officers-escorting-aid-convoys-in-gaza/
slickweasel333@reddit
So Axios says it happened based on a report they put together according to three officials in the Israeli and US government...
And you're talking about credibility when you frame the argument as US officials condoning the Hamas police force via a third-party report. Please take a second to think about that.
waiver@reddit
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/middle-east-media-research-institute-memri/
Axios meanwhile has high credibility, if they say it happened, it happened.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/axios/
But of course if you don't believe them, you can ask the Special regional envoy for humanitarian issues, David Sutterfield.
“The IDF (Israeli Defense Force) 10 days, two weeks ago, did indeed strike at seven, eight, or nine police officials, including a commander whose units had been involved in providing escorts," he replied.
Such escorts were needed because of attacks on aid convoys first by "desperate" Palestinians and "then by criminal elements," Satterfield said.
He denied allegations that Hamas has stolen aid and commercial shipments into Gaza, saying that no Israeli official has presented him or the Biden administration with “specific evidence of diversion or theft of assistance."
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-struck-palestinian-police-escorting-gaza-aid-says-us-envoy-2024-02-16/
slickweasel333@reddit
And how do you know that MBFC is trustworthy? There are multiple threads all over reddit, including r/journalism that warn about relying on MBFC, especially when it takes over your phone screen with mobile ads if you visit the site from a phone.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Journalism/s/C9KYymBaMB
https://www.reddit.com/r/Journalism/s/SSwvXk4s3w
You somehow have a distinct problem with every source I link lol.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Source?
slickweasel333@reddit
UNRWA twitter
NotActuallyIraqi@reddit
They retracted their post.
slickweasel333@reddit
No, they deleted it, not retracted.
The UN also decried another Hamas theft back in 2009, which prompted them to suspend aid delivery. https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-209885/
Hamas has also published video themselves "securing aid" https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-ministry-interior-palestinian-civil-defense-secures-aid-convoy-gaza
waiver@reddit
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/urgent-clarification-unrwa
Regarding reports on social media of looting of an UNRWA warehouse
"UNRWA would like to confirm that no looting has taken place in any of its warehouses in the Gaza Strip. "
"The images circulating on social media were of a movement of basic medical supplies from the UNRWA warehouse to health partners."
Sounds like a retraction to me.
Those are Gaza police in your second video, that's why the trucks weren't looted until the IDF hunted down the cops escorting the aid trucks.
slickweasel333@reddit
That's not a retraction, that's saying "Our aid got stolen en route from the warehouse on the way to it's destination. The warehouses are still safe." I don't know know how you got anything else from that statement, especially a retraction.
waiver@reddit
That's literally not what they are saying, maybe you should practice your reading skills.
slickweasel333@reddit
That's pretty cut and dry. And I'm literally linking you two other instances of theft, one from the UN and another from Hamas themselves. You won't believe UN or Hamas, and I'm not sure what your point is about the veracity anyway. Make your point if you have it.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Link the post.
slickweasel333@reddit
Look at my first comment
Oppopity@reddit
Imgur?
slickweasel333@reddit
https://x.com/Israel/status/1713918249669112145?t=XBPZL9lU-5HGmxrTMnLWXQ&s=19
They deleted the posts, so all that exists are screen captures.
roydez@reddit
Source: Israel's propaganda twitter feed.
You can't be serious are you?
slickweasel333@reddit
Nope, it's reported on other sources as well.
SleepingScissors@reddit
A paywalled article. Wow. Even the headline says they've retracted that statement. And even if it happened, it was the Ministry of Health that supposedly took fuel from a supply depot. God forbid hospitals get fuel. But like you guys always say, "Every Palestinian is a terrorist", right?
slickweasel333@reddit
This is where you can see the deleted post on the internet archive.
https://web.archive.org/web/20231016132013/https://twitter.com/UNRWA/status/1713887016134295977
Theodore_Buckland_@reddit
Maybe you just can’t cope with the fact that the IDF are a terrorist organisation
slickweasel333@reddit
Straw man bait ignored
rednehb@reddit
That is very poorly written for a UN account, looks super fake, and never even mentions Hamas. And no, I don't care if the official Israel twitter account posted a "screenshot" of it.
slickweasel333@reddit
Haaretz and other sources, both pro- and anti-netanyahu have reported the same.
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/2023-10-16/ty-article/unrwa-nixes-statement-accusing-hamas-of-stealing-humanitarian-fuel-from-gaza-compound/0000018b-38fa-d0ac-a39f-b9fa2f1c0000
Mando177@reddit
Any sources that aren’t from Israel and subject to their wartime censors?
slickweasel333@reddit
That's... not even how wartime censorship works. Censors keep sensitive or embarrassing information from being published, they don't make news orgs publish fake stories.
Tw1tcHy@reddit
WSJ mentioned it last year: https://www.wsj.com/articles/gaza-aid-unrwa-united-nations-hamas-israel-45bfbfe
rednehb@reddit
your link leads to a 403 error
slickweasel333@reddit
Fine on my end. Try a different computer. Or just Google "unrwa deletes tweet about hamas stealing aid"
rednehb@reddit
"It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search"
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=+%22unrwa+deletes+tweet+about+hamas+stealing+aid%22
idk seems like you're full of shit lol
ODHH@reddit (OP)
What began in the spring as a largely random phenomenon of desperate civilians stealing from trucks has now morphed into an organized criminal enterprise, aid groups say, and the gangs responsible have become increasingly violent and powerful — compounding the struggle to deliver food, hygiene items and cold-weather supplies to 2 million displaced and hungry people as winter approaches.
In October, the amount of assistance reaching Gazans fell to its lowest point since the early stages of the war, even as U.S. officials demanded that Israel surge aid across the enclave or risk losing some military support. While the threat of famine is most severe in the north, the entire population now faces acute food insecurity, a U.N.-backed panel found this month. COGAT, the Israeli military’s civilian affairs department for the Palestinian territories, has justified restrictions on the flow of goods by alleging repeatedly that Hamas is stealing aid and preventing it from reaching civilians. As Washington urges Israel to allow more trucks into Gaza, looting has become the greatest obstacle to distributing the limited aid that does make it in, according to a U.S. official, who added that Hamas is not behind the attacks — an assessment that was widely shared by those operating on the ground.
“We have not seen any physical interference from Hamas anywhere in our programs, north or south,” an official from a major international aid organization said.
Rise of the gangs
Israel launched its military campaign in Gaza more than a year ago, after the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, that left 1,200 dead. Hamas and other militants took about 250 people hostage. Israel’s war has flattened much of Gaza; killed more than 43,000 people, according to the Gaza Health Ministry; and displaced 1.9 million — 90 percent of the population.
Civil order began to collapse in February, as Israel targeted civilian police officers who had been guarding humanitarian convoys, citing their affiliation with the Hamas-run government. Desperate civilians and criminals began rushing trucks to steal supplies, causing a slowdown in deliveries. Initially, according to aid workers, many of the looters were hungry people trying to feed their families. In May, Israel seized and shut down the Rafah border crossing with Egypt — which had been Gaza’s main lifeline — reducing the number of aid trucks able to enter the enclave. The majority of humanitarian traffic shifted to Israel’s Kerem Shalom crossing, which leads to a part of southern Gaza where powerful Bedouin families, some involved in organized crime, have long held sway.
By the summer, a lucrative black-market trade in smuggled cigarettes — banned by Israel from entering Gaza during the war — was booming, with organized gangs attacking trucks to search for them. Tobacco became a dominant form of currency. A pack of 20 cigarettes now goes for around $1,000, according to Georgios Petropoulos, head of the Gaza office for the U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, calling it a “cancer” that’s “crept into our supply chain.”
He said cigarettes, originally hidden in produce, were now being found inside cans of food, showing that smuggling begins in factories, with much of the contraband believed to originate in Egypt. The smuggling route runs through the Sinai Peninsula and is linked to the Egyptian branches of the Bedouin tribes in Gaza, aid organizations and transport company executives said.
A spokesman for the Egyptian foreign press office did not respond to a request for comment.
U.N. officials say they have repeatedly asked Israel to clamp down on cigarette smuggling — or let cigarettes in legally — to ease the looting epidemic, but discussions have been fruitless.
In a video filmed by one humanitarian worker in June, and shared with The Post, four men stood or sat on an open-bed truck, one of them using a sharp object to cut into a carton of U.N. aid. They were searching for cigarettes, the worker said.
A video filmed by a humanitarian worker in June and shared with The Post shows men using a sharp object to cut into a carton of U.N. aid. (Video: Obtained by The Post) Over the summer, the United Nations and international aid organizations lost $25.5 million worth of humanitarian goods to looting, according to an Oct. 28 PowerPoint presentation obtained by The Post.
Israel cut commercial supply lines to Gaza last month, saying militants were benefiting from the trade, and the number of aid trucks it permitted to enter the Strip plummeted to near record lows. Nearly half of the already diminished food aid the World Food Program moved along the southern Gaza route was stolen, according to the presentation, which was given by OCHA to a group that includes U.N. agencies, nongovernmental organizations and donor countries, including the United States. Gangs used to discard the aid on the road for civilians to pick over after locating stashed cigarettes, an international aid worker said. Now, “in a lot of cases they hijack the entire truck and take it to a warehouse” to resell food and other goods at exorbitant prices on the black market, they added.
Who ultimately profits from the smuggled or stolen goods remains murky. Israeli officials, who have often accused Hamas of hijacking aid and commercial deliveries to enrich itself, acknowledged last week that crime families were behind some of the looting.
“Some looters have connections to Hamas, and some do not,” an Israeli official told journalists at a briefing on Nov. 11, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly.
The man aid groups believe to be the ringleader of the most prolific gang spent time in a Hamas jail on criminal charges before the war, said Adham Shuhaibar’s brother Nahed, the president of the private transportation association in Gaza.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
The internal U.N. memo obtained by The Post identified Yasser Abu Shabab — a member of the Tarabin tribe, which spans southern Gaza, the Negev Desert in Israel and Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula — as “the main and most influential stakeholder behind systematic and massive looting” of aid convoys.
Operating from the eastern part of Rafah, Abu Shabab leads an outfit of about “100 thugs” who attack trucks bringing food and other supplies into Gaza, Nahed Shuhaibar said. He described how the gang sets up berms to waylay convoys along the Israeli-controlled route from Kerem Shalom, where they wait with Kalashnikovs and other weapons.
In one incident in early October, about 80 of Shuhaibar’s 100 aid trucks were attacked and the goods inside stolen by Abu Shabab’s men, he said. The gang has killed four of his drivers since May, he added, most recently in an attack on Oct. 15. Another driver who was attacked last month remains in the hospital with broken arms and legs, Shuhaibar said.
“The hallmark now, as opposed to two months ago, is that there’s a real pronounced violence,” Petropoulos said. “The truck drivers we hire are beaten, maimed, killed.”
The Post reached Abu Shabab, the alleged gang leader, by phone this month. He denied that his men carry weapons or attack drivers. And while he acknowledged that he and his relatives “take from the trucks,” he insisted they do not touch “food, tents, or supplies for children.”
His operation was born of desperation, he said: “Hamas has left us with nothing, and their armed men occasionally come and shoot at us,” he said. “Let those who accuse us of working with Israel say what they want,” he added. “Israel doesn’t need us.”
In densely populated areas farther inside Gaza where Hamas security forces still operate, though with a greatly reduced footprint, they punish merchants who procure goods from Abu Shabab to sell at inflated prices, Nahed Shuhaibar said. “Things are under control” in areas Hamas controls, he said. “The only challenge facing us is the area where Abu Shabab is located” — a part of Gaza that is “under Israeli protection,” he added. Israel did not respond to questions from The Post about Abu Shabab and his alleged criminal activities.
Gaza’s most dangerous road
For months, Israel approved only one route for all aid entering through the Kerem Shalom crossing: a rough road running from the cargo pickup point through a desolate patch of southeastern Gaza.
One humanitarian worker who regularly travels the route said looters typically station themselves a little over a mile and a half from the crossing. Others recounted seeing men and boys even closer to the entry point, some armed with sticks, rods and guns.
While traveling in a humanitarian convoy during a visit to Gaza this month, Jan Egeland, secretary general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, said he saw a group of men carrying sticks less than half a mile from the aid pickup point. Mattresses intended for displaced people were strewn along the road, cut to pieces by thieves searching for cigarettes. Several trucks were attacked later that day, he said.
Adham Shuhaibar and Qaher Hameed, the owner of another transportation company in Gaza, each said their trucks were pillaged just over 500 yards from Israeli military posts.
The Israeli military “sees them and silently monitors everything that happens,” Hameed said.
Egeland, whose organization provides humanitarian relief and psychosocial support for children in Gaza, said “it’s not possible to do anything” in the enclave without Israel’s knowledge.
While the gangs carry out their work openly, local escorts employed by logistics companies were “shot at repeatedly” by Israeli forces in early October, the U.N. memo said, describing one incident involving a quadcopter drone.
Meanwhile, suspected Hamas fighters carrying weapons in other parts of Gaza are generally taken out immediately by the Israeli military, aid workers said. The IDF frequently releases drone surveillance footage of such targeted strikes.
U.N. officials say they have confronted their Israeli counterparts over the lack of security around Kerem Shalom: “At one point we told [Israeli officials], what is that meant to make us think if the only place in Gaza where an armed Palestinian can come within 150 meters of a tank and not get shot is there?” Petropoulos said.
Humanitarian groups have repeatedly asked Israeli authorities to approve other crossings and routes that would allow them to bypass the gangs. For months, they recounted, those entreaties were ignored: “The only route they give us is directly through the looters,” one aid worker said.
When the World Food Program tried to clear another road for humanitarian use in recent months, its team came under fire on several occasions, according to Alia Zaki, a spokeswoman for the agency.
The new route was finally approved by Israel last month, and some aid trucks have begun using it. But looters have already adapted, targeting convoys there as well, Zaki said.
Janti Soeripto, chief executive of Save the Children, said the only way to truly address Gaza’s humanitarian crisis would be to flood the enclave with aid and commercial supplies — undercutting the price gouging that fuels the looting.
“A lot of the disorder goes away when you actually get humanitarian access,” she said.
Aid groups say the lives of untold Palestinians could depend on it.
Morris reported from Berlin, Harb from London, Berger from Jaffa, Israel, and Balousha from Toronto. Lior Soroka in Tel Aviv and Meg Kelly in Washington contributed to this report.
FixFederal7887@reddit
Systemic starvation at play. Or you could say "subjecting people to conditions calculated to bring about their destruction in whole or in part."
Someone should invent a word to summarize the actions above, and hopefully, it includes similar actions under its definition.
The_Bear_Jew@reddit
So now it's Israel's fault that gangs are stealing aid in Palestine? Lol, if a Palestinian committed suicide in China you'd find a way to blame Israel.
Responsible_Salad521@reddit
Unfortunately, Israel is shown to be encouraging the breakdown in societal cohesion by killing any form of police or security.
StarliteStandard@reddit
I mean, the police and security are all Hamas/Hamas-run, so by targeting militants, Israel indirectly destroys the police in Gaza.
It’s kinda a fucked situation here no matter which side you support, if Israel pumps Gaza full of aid, they would end up feeding Hamas, the very group they’re trying to eliminate. If Israel restricts aid to Gaza, they’re starving the civilians, the very group they don’t want becoming terrorists.
waiver@reddit
Considering there are 2.3 million civilians and only 30k Hamas militants no idea why you act like it's a dilemma which option should be taken here. Restricting food would have a disproportionate effect among civilians and would be considered a war crime.
StarliteStandard@reddit
Source?
waiver@reddit
Any estimate of population in Gaza and the estimates of Hamas militants given by the IDF
StarliteStandard@reddit
Thanks, I just checked, you’re right, and you’re also right in the sense that you cannot and should not punish 2.3 million people with starvation to get to 30k militants.
waiver@reddit
If they wanted the hostages back they would have negotiated months ago, it's quite clear that's not one of Netanyahu's priorities. I dont think the priority are either the hostages or destroying Hamas but extending the war as much as possible for political reasons.
StarliteStandard@reddit
I think it’s a combination all factories, negotiating with terrorists gives precedence that you can in fact commit terrorist acts and the country in question will still negotiate you. But it’s also clear Netanyahu is using the war for political reasons, his grasp on power is shaky, he even fired his defense minister Gallant because of political reasons
waiver@reddit
Well, it's quite clear that if they want the hostages back a negotiation is the only way, they have rescued what? 8? 9 hostages? In 13 months.
sulaymanf@reddit
Here’s an alternative; if you want the Gaza public to stop supporting terrorists, then stop treating every Gazan civilian as a terrorist.
This isn’t hard; counterinsurgency programs work by empowering moderates and working with the public to convince them that their best interests are in working with them for peace. Roughing up unarmed children and sexually assaulting women only proves Hamas’ narrative that Israel wants you all dead and the only solution is armed resistance. Netanyahu is allergic to working with any Palestinians at all and cannot name a “good” Palestinian, so he’s only proving Hamas’ point.
StarliteStandard@reddit
Do you have sources to back up your claims that young unarmed children are roughed up and women are sexually assaulted? Just want to read more about that, preferably from reputable sources as well.
Generally I agree with you, if you empower the civilians and make them believe that armed resistance isn't the only way of life, you would have less murderous radicalised young people at your border. Netanyahu is not a good PM, his far right coalition needs to go, this is the view of a large majority of Israel, he would have been voted out of power if Oct 7 didn't happen, now he's using this war to justify brutal methods in Gaza and cling to power.
However I also think that the PA and Hamas don't want to work with Israel either, they're adults with decades of indoctrination and motivation to destroy Israel. They have rejected favourable two state solutions provided in the 2000s as well.
This isn't a conflict that can be resolved by one side, both sides must work together, PA, Hamas, Likud, but that is a dream that we may never see.
sulaymanf@reddit
There’s whole subreddits showing videos of children being assaulted, there’s multiple UN reports, and many many documentaries and videos by journalists. Even CNN has reported on sexual assaults of Palestinian men and women by IDF. I’d give you a list but I doubt your question is in good faith because despite your “Palestine” flair your entire comment history is nothing but repeating Israeli talking points. You seem to think that Palestinians dislike Israel not because their daily life experience is checkpoints and being smacked around by IDF troops at those checkpoints as well as getting spit on by settlers, but you blame “indoctrination” instead. Come on. Every Palestinian I know has personal stories to share and when I visit I witness it firsthand; this isn’t something they learn in a class.
StarliteStandard@reddit
Right so you’re making claims and unable to provide any sources, typical I guess, shouldn’t have expected it from your average “wokeist”
AstartesFanboy@reddit
Hamas are the police. And probably the one who’ve been helping steal the aid in the first place, since ya know, most of the time Hamas militants take everything for themselves when the locals are given it without IDF control of it
total47@reddit
Probably true. I’d like to argue that Hamas is shown to be encouraging the complete destruction of Gaza by refusing to surrender even though they’ve been soundly beaten.
IdiAmini@reddit
As the occupying force, it's literally on the IDF to provide security. If they won't let any third party provide the same, that's the IDF's and as such Israel's fault completely
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Actually they going above and beyond to ensure order
Tw1tcHy@reddit
Just passing along the BearJews rebuttal, in case you wanted to know
CosmicPenguin@reddit
Who are the police in Gaza?
Tell me.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Yep these people just post propaganda from tiktok and run away
HummusSwipper@reddit
IDF engages in firefights with gangs results in people blaming Israel for the casualties. IDF backs off results in people blaming the IDF for not doing anything about gangs.
Meanwhile, no one is blaming the gangs (either Hamas or another Islamist terror organizations) or the "Gazan security forces" (Hamas operatives) for the actual looting and assault on civilians.
Hey remember when Hamas said they had tunnels full of aid and the Palestinians can go f--- themselves? Hamas Has Stock of Food, Water and Fuel As Gazans Scrounge for It - The New York Times , Hamas is hoarding vast amounts of fuel as Gaza hospitals run low, U.S. officials say
'Gaza Civilians Not Our Responsibility': Hamas Puts Onus On Israel, UN
Palestinian Authority Says Hamas Is Stealing Aid Meant for Gaza Civilians - Algemeiner.com
Hamas Diverts Jordan Aid Convoys in Gaza
waiver@reddit
They don't get into firefights with gangs, they don't touch those. They massacred a multitude trying to reach the aid trucks though, 118 deaths and more than 760 injured.
HummusSwipper@reddit
As I've said, people such as yourself will blame the IDF either way based on shaky evidence while refusing to hold Hamas and the Palestinian gangs responsible. You're not here arguing or acting in good faith but rather you're motivated by disgusting bias.
Let's not waste our times, your comment history is filled with inflammatory language and controversial takes. It's obvious you don't think Israel has a right to exist or a right to defend itself, meaning you're here to push your twisted agenda infested with double standards, and I'm not going to give it my time of day.
thirtyuhmspeed@reddit
You can blame the IDF and Hamas, but somehow you feel the urge to defend the IDF and find some mental bridges to justify murdering children. On one other post you called the stuff happening in Amsterdam last week a pogrom, even the major of Amsterdam appologized and said she was wrong calling it like this and the narrative was pushed by Netanyahu at 3 am. Sorry for the rant
self-assembled@reddit
First of all, apparently the IDF unexpectedly told this aid convoy to go in a day earlier than originally planned, gave them only 30 minutes notice to move 100 trucks, which is just plain rude, and told them go on a new unplanned route. This according to the NYTimes. Whatever happened, the IDF planned it.
These people are starving, and there's clearly NOT ENOUGH FOOD. And really the food is free anyway and people will eat it in the end. The solution is more food. This report is infuriating, because somehow Israel uses this as an excuse to let less food in.
StarliteStandard@reddit
Telling them to go on short notice is probably because they’re trying to out manoeuvre the gangs but tbh everyone there is starving, Hamas and civilians alike. Collective punishment shouldn’t be the solution because it just converts your normal civilians into radicals (I mean duh if you have no food because of Israel, you’re not gonna be like “praise Israel”).
virv_uk@reddit
70% of palestinians are ideologically brainwashed / indoctrinated to the point of supporting Oct 7. We only have two examples of fixing that at a population level. We used the same method both times: Subjugate, re-educate, rebuild. Thats how we got two of the worlds most successful democracies / economies: Germany and Japan.
In occupied Germany, if a shot came out of an appartment building they'd send a tank round through it. It didn't take long for the population accepted the allies like a force of nature or god. No use in fighting it, you have to adapt. They stopped letting people fight from their appartments. They didn't 'become more radical'. That only happens when you half ass an occupation.
You save / improve more lives in the long run by fixing the problem.
Get rid of the terrorist ideology, and you get co-operation from their neighbors. (Don't forget the Egyptians hate palestinians almost as much as Israel, to the point of razing all settlements near gaza) You stop wasting resources on teaching hate, the kids learn skills. Stop wasting resources on terror tunnels and weapons, you get water "tunnels" and infrastructure.
Zoetekauw@reddit
Bombs are tossed daily on buildings housing families that not a single shot is fired from.
All well and dandy this tactic if the bombs and killing are overtly a heavy handed reprimand to aggression from Hamas, but they're not. As is, they're indiscriminate for all intents and purposes, and don't send any message besides "we hate you and want you dead".
Btw where are you pulling that 70% number from?
virv_uk@reddit
Have you ever wondered why there is always a crowd when Israel blows up a building in Gaza. It's because they send an evacuation order.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
self-assembled@reddit
85% of Israelis are ideologically brainwashed / indoctrinated to the point of supporting a genocide on the Palestinian people.
Go to hell you racist thug.
StarliteStandard@reddit
I agree with most of what you said and what needs to be done to eradicate radical Islamic ideology. Israel is half-assing their occupation, due to international pressure, as well as the fact they’re outnumbered 100:1 in a Muslim majority region. They can’t go too hard in Palestine or other Arab nations might be more motivated to act.
Ideally, Israel should have done this to Palestine decades ago, invade, subjugate, re educate and rebuild, and by now, Jews and Palestinians would have been living in peace. Instead they half assed everything and let radical Islamic ideology fester.
waiver@reddit
The Clans of Gaza told Israel not to use that road as it was unsafe. Plus there is no way in hell Israel didnt know about one hundred trucks being looted and refused to act.
StarliteStandard@reddit
I mean it’s not their responsibility after it crosses the border. What do you expect them to do? Anything they do to the looters will be decried as “muh civilians genocidal hurdurrr”
self-assembled@reddit
Israel's only goal here is ethnic cleansing. To accomplish that they need to create a narrative that in some twisted way allows them to bring in less food. So starving people evacuate. They engineer this shit intentionally, or the gangs were even IDF soldiers in disguise, I wouldn't be surprised.
StarliteStandard@reddit
>Israel's only goal here is ethnic cleansing. To accomplish that they need to create a narrative that in some twisted way allows them to bring in less food.
That's not true, their goal is to recover the hostages and destroy Hamas at any cost, even if the civilian casualties are enormous. There's no need to spread untrue propaganda, it weakns your position, there are enough things to critisize Israel for.
>So starving people evacuate. They engineer this shit intentionally,
They do this to starve out both Hamas fighters and civilians, some of which were forced at gunpoint by Hamas to stay and be matyrs
>or the gangs were even IDF soldiers in disguise, I wouldn't be surprised.
Unless there is proof of this, again, there's no need to spread untrue propaganda. What Israel is doing is wrong, but call it what it is and be objective
NotActuallyIraqi@reddit
Their goal is to do so no matter what. They literally engage in terrorism against civilians and mass starvation in order to pressure Hamas. They are willing to show that they are perfectly fine with literal genocide if it gets what they want.
And yes, the Netanyahu’s goal is also ethnic cleansing.
StarliteStandard@reddit
I agree with the first part you said, Israel is willing to do whatever it takes to recover the hostages, they would kill a million Palestinians if it means they have to, but no the "goal" is not Ethic Cleansing, the outcome (large civilian casualty) might seem like they are the same, but there is a nuance.
However, another way to look at it is, Hamas is willing to let a million Palestinians die if it meant they could keep and hide the hostages.
There is no "more moral" side here, Hamas will market dead Palestinians as much as they can to internationally pressure Israel into stopping their military operation to recover the hostages, and they don't care if half of Gaza is destroyed. Israel on the other hand, doesn't give a shit either.
Zoetekauw@reddit
Praying Mantis was an attack on military targets in retaliation of an attack on military targets. 0 innocent children were murdered.
It's not about proportionality. Nobody would decry Israel if they killed a million verified Hamas fighters. But they do decry Israel, because they wantonly kill thousands of non-combatants under the pretense of seeking out Hamas.
StarliteStandard@reddit
There’s no pretense here, they’re seeking out Hamas
StarliteStandard@reddit
This is some Alex Jones conspiracy level of analysis you've provided, is everything all right in there?
Thormeaxozarliplon@reddit
What stupidity
"yea Hamas was looting the aid the whole time... but that's also Israel's fault"
Get real. More than enough food as been going into Gaza. Disband UNRWA
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Israel won't let Palestinians guard the convoys and apparently even the IDF isn't guarding the convoys, so yeah it's their fault. That's what happens when you invade a country and take over security
Thormeaxozarliplon@reddit
There is no "guarding the convoys." Hamas STEALS them, puts all the food in warehouses and forces Palestinians to PAY for free aid food.
Open your damn eyes.
waiver@reddit
OHHH Really? You know who disagrees?
The aid organizations:
NGOs say Israel targeting Gaza police helps looters of aid
https://www.rfi.fr/en/middle-east/20241115-ngos-say-israel-targeting-gaza-police-helps-looters-of-aid
The US Government
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/us-said-to-ask-israel-to-stop-targeting-hamas-police-officers-escorting-aid-convoys-in-gaza/
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
You know that no truck rolls into Gaza without a full IDF inspection, right? And nothing crosses the border without IDF approval either. So, every single truck that rolls into Gaza is doing so with *explicit* Israeli approval of both the contents of the truck and its destination.
Where, exactly, is Hamas "stealing" this aid that's out of Israel's visibility or control? Let's hear you game out step-by-step exactly what's happening and why Israel is absolutely helpless to prevent it.
You're insisting we "open our damn eyes", open them for us! If Hamas is stealing the aid so openly, why isn't Israel killing the people who are stealing it? The IDF knows they're Hamas, why are they still alive?
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Because then you’ll screech the idf is bombing aid trucks.
Once they go in its up to gazans to a large point.
Or else hamas can just surrender
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
I love how the thought of Israel directly administering aid to the people they’ve walled off is just completely off the table to you.
Mantiskindenspines@reddit
they tried that. not worth it
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Bingo. These areas are in IDF control
waffle_fries4free@reddit
You mean after all thos bombing Israel still hasn't been able to defeat Hamas?
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
Yep so looks like they gonna have to take over half the land long term
waffle_fries4free@reddit
They didn't have actual control before? This is happening in areas the IDF has said is under their control
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
What exactly is under control? They sure none of the hundreds of thousands of ppl is void of terrorists? Literally the first thing I would do is attack food convoys guarded by the idf.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
So now the gangs in areas you control are Hamas too? Why aren't the terrorists dead after all the death and destruction caused by the IDF?
Round-Friendship9318@reddit
Hamas is not even the group stealing the aid
slickweasel333@reddit
Source?
MeetingHistorical514@reddit
Literally the fucking article that this post is about
The_Bear_Jew@reddit
Which is a huge lie, how could they possibly tell if a gang was Hamas or not.
Other places have reported Hamas stealing food:
https://nypost.com/2024/10/10/world-news/hamas-steals-humanitarian-aid-trucks-from-gaza-strip/
https://abcnews.go.com/International/gaza-aid-distribution-limited-stealing-looting-amid-famine/story?id=108350971
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/destruction-lawlessness-red-tape-hobble-aid-gazans-go-hungry-2024-03-25/
https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-820030
https://unwatch.org/unrwa-staff-stealing-and-selling-humanitarian-aid-gazans-report/
OblivionTU@reddit
yes as the occupiers it’s their responsibility and therefore at least partially their fault
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
didn't they get in a lot of shit a few months back from trying to protect a convey when a bunch of people got run over trying to raid it?
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
"trying to protect a convoy" is a hell of a way to describe killing 118 civilians and wounding 760 by opening fire into a huge crowd of people.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
it is the IDF way. You preferring the alternative or what?
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
So the options are:
A) Do absolutely nothing
B) Commit war crimes against civilians
Talk about the soft bigotry of low expectations. Jesus fucking christ.
waiver@reddit
It's a False dilemma fallacy.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
Would you quit doing this bullshit of providing two options to scenarios that have many options? I know the technique and its bullshit rhetoric. There's obviously a ton of options but the IDF are dicks with genocidal tendencies in the command chain, who are tetchy as fuck, so this is what happens.
IIRC my original argument is that its more that they don't care rather than they're attempting to make this happen.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Would you quit doing this bullshit of providing two options to scenarios that have many options?
Absolutely dying laughing. I literally just codified the two options YOU provided.
I thought you don't like to reduce things to just two options.
You again have erased the third option, which is the option that both this article and myself are claiming is the actual truth.
The IDF is *knowingly creating the conditions for these gangs to exist*. And then, to your point, standing back and not caring what happens next.
So yes, you're right that the IDF doesn't care. Where you're wrong is in your complete and utter refusal to acknowledge Israel's culpability for the conditions creating the gangs they "don't care" about.
benjaminjaminjaben@reddit
Its cause you also did it in the other comment. But sure, the IDF suck. My initial position in that they're not complicit but rather they don't care.
I don't think they're knowingly creating the conditions. They're simply not prioritising the resolution, dragging their heels like they do every step of the way when someone suggests they don't let the Palestinian people starve.
Aye, IDF should withdraw and a peacekeeping force be put in place in the region which should be rebuilt. The ironically named former defence secretary stated that their military goals have been achieved in the region so there's no reason for them to be there. Something should be changed prior to the Trump presidency and the likely 100% guaranteed return of the UN Security Council veto.
OblivionTU@reddit
well they’ve chosen not to let anyone else protect it so
cultish_alibi@reddit
Are you upset that the amount of food is too high? Not enough malnutrition I guess.
imnotcreative635@reddit
I've seen more than enough posts on SM to know that a lot of the "food" that they are getting is rotten
__DraGooN_@reddit
The framing of this article is so malicious. It's like it's designed to trigger a response out of these stupid Western college kids who don't know anything, but still want to be offended and "do something".
The whole article pretends like Gaza was not ruled by a terrorist organisation. That any institution like the police or "security forces" is Hamas.
Asking Israel to hand over aid to armed Palestinian "police" is making things easier for Hamas, isn't it?
waiver@reddit
If Israel didn't want the Gazan Police to escort the vehicles (as the US Department of State and Aid organizations wanted) they should've provided an alternative, something that is their obligation as an occupying power in Gaza.
cultish_alibi@reddit
So add police to the list of things Gaza isn't allowed to have, along with food, medical supplies, fuel, and land.
AstartesFanboy@reddit
Well when the police are a terrorist militant organization no ya fucking don’t. How is that so hard to understand? Every time an aid truck has been, Hamas takes everything for themselves and dosent let the aid go to the population. Guess just letting them do that would make you feel better since the brave Palestinian freedom fighters were able to get the trucks from Israel. Hamas then taking everything for themselves and not distributing it to anybody else and repurposing everything they can to make weapons I guess just is a sad but unavoidable outcome then huh?
NotActuallyIraqi@reddit
Israeli police are also a terrorist militant organization, do you think it’s legitimate to target them too, by that logic?
Scared_Lack3422@reddit
Lollll terrorist militant organization and you think Hamas isnt
AstartesFanboy@reddit
Well, if you’re in a war, and the police forces are directly subservient to the militant arm of your government, actively participating in the conflict and not just focusing on controlling civil unrest or doing their job, then yeah they are. Again, why is that so hard to understand? If they are active participants and not just doing their job they’re targets. Whether it’s Israeli or Palestinian ones. If Israeli police start stealing from aid convoys, and giving resources meant for the people to the government, and take part in the war then yeah, targets. also as we’ve seen they are targets. And have been targeted constantly. This really isn’t the slam dunk gotcha you think it is lol.
sieurblabla@reddit
Add "population" too to the list of things gaza is not allowed to have, as it might contain hamas members.
CastleElsinore@reddit
The UN and Egypt already refuse to move in trucks and have since last December since they kept getting shot at (articles were always in passive voice, no mention of who was shooting at them in the middle of Gaza, just "fired upon")
So it's just the Israelis now.
What's next, Israel leaves the trucks at the border, then gets blamed for that? Or leaves the keys in them, then runs out of trucks, then it's their fault there are no more trucks because they are all in gaza?
New-Connection-9088@reddit
OP’s framing of this is unreal. Palestinians take aid before Hamas could steal it and that’s not only a bad thing, but it’s Israel’s fault. Do you want Hamas to steal it instead? No, I think I understand the game now. When Hamas steals it, it’s also Israel’s fault.
waiver@reddit
Your perspective is quite deluded and contradicts reports from aid organizations. These organizations have indicated that armed gangs, operating under the observation of the IDF, have been stealing aid. In this case, the responsibility falls on Israel, as they killed the Gazan police who were escorting the aid vehicles and failed to provide replacements, which is their duty as an occupying power.
sneakyfoodthief@reddit
The infantilizing of the Palestinians by the west never ceases to amaze me.
They have literally been stealing aid from their own population for over a year now, instead of bending together to help their weak, and Israel is the one who is blamed - psychotic. people in here writing fan-fics about how Israel coordinated these attacks with the Palestinians in order to... starve the Palestinians..?
When Israel was giving away the aid, the Palestinians formed huge gatherings that caused chaos that led to shooting and casualties of civilians.
When the convoys enter refugee sites where Israel doesnt operate at, Hamas steals the aid.
When the convoys enter refugee sites where Israel operates, random gangs steal the aid.
What a shit show, if only they cared for their own people as much as they hated their enemies.
CastleElsinore@reddit
Now thats not nice
You should mention Hamas has been stealing aid since at least 2009 according to the UN
Justavisitor-0538@reddit
Since we're talking about the UN, according to UN experts, Israel is deliberately starving Gaza and Israel's actions in Gaza are consistent with the characteristics of genocide.
giboauja@reddit
This was in response to someone in this post, but I don't want to directly bother them with this opinion, because they're like not up for it. I put time into it so I'm going to post it. 'shrug'. I ramble about Likud and culpability.
At one point it really looked like Israel would have to start forcing some of their settlers out of the West Bank (around 20 years ago). Then Hamas took over Gaza. It really makes you wonder why Israel didn't help the Fatah when Hamas decided to push them out of Gaza and take over the place completely.
If Likud actually cared about Israel's security why allow the group that was willing to recognize you and make peace get pushed out of power by a bunch of under funded thugs. I get it's probably a lot more complicated, but I guess I'm just frustrated by what I see as the real cause of the increased tension and Isolation of Gaza.
Like, how isn't Likud held fcking acountable in any way for all that is happening. The bombings, kidnappings, and murder (on Israel's side). As much as I hate Hamas, I feel it's current political entity is just entwined into the politics of Likud. I barely see them as two seperate groups now, because it honestly feels like they keep giving each other what the other wants.
I have no stake in either country and think both need to learn to live with each other. But any support given has to be predicated that both States are finding a solution to their violence. I just don't get why people who can see Hamas for what they are, can't see Likud for what they are too. They're just a bunch of terrorists with suits on. It's the only difference. They terrorize both Israel and Palestine.
I think the bad guys won across the board in Palestine and Israel. I'm sorry for what's happening to you and yours. I hoped me own countrymen would see the difference between Trump and Kamala, but they only see what's in their wallet. Which wasn't unexpected.
Scared_Lack3422@reddit
Hamas' whole thing is Do Not Negotiate with Israel. Do not normalize relations with them. They publicly and privately execute and torture any Palestinian accused of working with Israel. Fatah was responsible for a number of major suicide attacks. Black September. Also.. pay for slay is still a thing.
Likud sucks and lots of people agree on that and that completely vacating Gaza the way they did was a big mistake but... what was the alternative? An actual military occupation that would recieve international condemnation for becoming an all out war?
Why would it be their responsibility to help a group of people that also behave very violently toward them? Arafat was also full of shit.
Fatah wasn't just like Sorry we suicide bombed you and did Black September! We really in good faith want to work with you! Help protect us from Hamas!
"[Fatah] Delegates resolved not to resume Israeli-Palestinian peace talks until 14 preconditions were met. Among these preconditions were the release of all Israel-held Palestinian prisoners, a freeze on all Israeli settlement construction, and an end to the Gaza blockade.[54]
By affirming its option for "armed resistance" against Israel, Fatah appealed to Palestinians who wanted a more hardline response to Israel."
NotActuallyIraqi@reddit
That’s phony overgeneralizing. Hamas has offered legitimate ceasefires with Israel and Israel broke most of them. Hamas offered a 50-year truce and endorsed a two state solution (which they referred to as a divorce in 2005).
Israel vacating Gaza was not a mistake, and it was an improvement for all, but its progress was undone by Israel blockading and starving Gaza and expanding the settlements in West Bank.
You’re lasting only fragments of the timeline. Fatah offered to give up Palestinian land in exchange for a two state solution, and offered to join Israel in fighting Hamas in exchange for that. Abbas even offered to give up Jerusalem completely as well as the right of return as an opening offer, and Netanyahu refused to sit down with him or give a counter-offer.
Scared_Lack3422@reddit
Lol no they haven't
Specialist-Roof3381@reddit
The worst elements on both sides can escalate the situation and effectively cooperate to ensure there isn't space for tranquility to grow into peace. There doesn't seem to be a solution for this, as you say the worst have won and it seems like the past tense is appropriate.
Israel and Palestine are mortal enemies, it is not surprising that Israel does thing to fuck over their enemies. The lesson here is not "expect Israel to look out for Palestine's best interest", it is that Palestine's love of armed struggle and war, the reason Hamas has support from Palestine, is a suicidal and self destructive strategy which gives the worst elements of Israel everything they want in the end.
It at least makes more sense for Likud to support further conflict because they, 100%, are going to win. Palestine is committing suicide trying to fight them directly instead of cutting their losses and taking any deal they can get.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
I don't think most people understand that Likud and Bibi made a very explicit political decision to empower Hamas. Hamas would not exist in Gaza without Netanyahu's conscious decision to allow them funding.
For those who'd like to learn more: Haaretz has a good overview.
giboauja@reddit
If Hamas is strong Palestine remains largely illegitimate, so a two state solution won't happen. As I understand it at least. I mean he's right, terrorist don't really run states, but then I ask who's also to blame for a 1000 dead Israelis. Most people in Israel recognized this at the start of the war, but if he keeps it going and continues to total victory the propagandic idea that the "enemy" has been defeated will overshadow any logic or reason.
I'm sure in 20 years or so they'll put up some statue for all the lives lost and feel real bad about it. So typical of our species. Our brains are the world's greatest acrobats. The way we let monsters in power so easily is astounding. Israel is no different than your Russia's or Turkey (who has a commonly similar geo political situation to Israel). Peace activists truly have one of the most important and impossible jobs there is. Not many of those in Palestine or Israel these days.
Stay safe out there, sucks we failed to elect something close to human being ourselves. I only hope to god his incompetence hinders his agenda.
NotActuallyIraqi@reddit
The settlers and Netanyahu. The first 9 months of 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinians in 20 years, as Jewish extremists engaged in literal pogroms in West Bank, burning multiple Palestinian towns and shooting unarmed Palestinians, with the IDF standing by or helping. Hamas warned of retaliation and the attacks didn’t stop. After the third town burned and Al Aqsa got raided by armed settlers, Hamas did respond. As Israel loves to point out, don’t cry if the retaliation was worse than the original attack.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Lol, if there's a statue in Gaza to any lives lost it will be dedicated to the Israeli victims of October 7th. I'd wager they completely unleash right-wing settlers on Gaza within the next 5 years.
The path Israel is on only ends one way, and that's as an international pariah state like apartheid South Africa. They're going to seize all of Gaza and the West Bank, and at some point on that path lose their international support.
KalaiProvenheim@reddit
The US and Azerbaijan would be its Israel
Antisymmetriser@reddit
That's a very shortsighted claim, I have to say. Netanyahu has definitely empowered Hamas and helped them maintain control and expand their military capabilities, but Hamas have existed for decades before, and took a major part in the second intifada (mostly suicide bombings), long before Bibi rose to power, and before the Gaza disengagement.
Hamas actually rose to power in Gaza following the Gaza disengagement in 2005, winning a parliamentary majority in the 2006 Palestinian elections. This was followed by the Gaza civil war, where Hamas took power of the strip once Fatah refused to cede control. Finally, after the failed 2007-2008 peace talks with Fatah, Netanyahu won the Israeli 2009 elections (mostly remaining in power since then) and reversed direction in Israeli politics (which were left-leaning up until then) nd backing Hamas. Purportedly in order to "placate" them and reduce the risk of an attack, but who knows the real motivation.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
So your argument is:
Yes, Netanyahu formed a tacit alliance with Hamas
Yes, Netanyahu helped ensure Hamas could access foreign cash funding
Yes, Netanyahu invited Hamas’ existence explicitly to stoke political strife with the West Bank and torpedo the 2-state solution.
BUT! He’s only done so for the past FIFTEEN YEARS STRAIGHT so he’s clearly not primarily responsible?
Did I get that right?
Antisymmetriser@reddit
I don't understand why you think I'm arguing in defence of Netanyahu, he definitely has a role in empowering Hamas and letting them achieve October 7th, but no, he is definitely not primarily responsible for Hamas being in power in Gaza, and the history of this is much longer and more complex than presented in that comment
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
You seem to be placing extreme emphasis on who helped make the decision to call the elections, and not everything that's happened in the past 15 years under Bibi.
The elections themselves are irrelevant to October 7th. What is relevant to October 7th? Hamas' ability to import dual-use goods and CASH into Gaza. Netanyahu explicitly pursued a strategy of allowing Hamas to receive funding, and access to materials that could be used to build tunnels and rockets.
Does this conflict go a hell of a lot farther back than 15 years? 100%
Is Netanyahu to blame for the fundamental existence of this conflict? Of course not!
But when we are talking nuts and bolts of why we are in this EXACT current situation in Gaza, including October 7th and the resulting war, this is 100% Bibi's fault. This is the only logical conclusion to the path that he sent Israel down with his very explicit decision making to make Hamas a military and political presence in the Gaza strip.
Antisymmetriser@reddit
I don't disagree with your main claim at all, the point of the matter was just me adding more context for the control Hamas has over Gaza, which came from winning the popular vote and a civil war against the somewhat more moderate (at least post-2005) Fatah, way before Bibi's current stint as PM. Bibi helped solidify it for sure, and helped them gain power and resources through a "divide and conquer" gambit that went really poorly, but there are many, many factors that led us to where we are now, and simplifying it to "Bibi" is not accurate or helpful
aWhiteWildLion@reddit
I thought overthrowing democratically elected governments is not cool
Absolute Reddit take, your entire post really.
Longjumping-Jello459@reddit
The Likud party has since it's founding been against the 2 state solution. In it's founding charter they literally have the phrase "From the Sea to the River there will only be Israeli sovereignity". Netanyahu has said repeatedly over the years that he is against any Palestinian state forming in the Levant.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
https://israelpolicyforum.org/likud/
giboauja@reddit
Well yeah, thats why its a problem that Likud and Hamas have been running things for 20 years. See
Longjumping-Jello459@reddit
Just adding some context for Likud and Israel for those who don't know that specific bit of info.
AgileCaregiver7300@reddit
All the more need for hamas to surrender just like the germans and Japanese.
Once they did the rebuilding and de radicalization could start
jackdeadcrow@reddit
Or, as we see, the settlers get more emboldened and quickened their demise. The difference is that Americans and the allies have never claimed tokyo or berlin as their “promised land”
RockstepGuy@reddit
A "good hearted" guess could be that in those times Israel was extremely hated and tensions were too high with the Palestinians, the second intifada had finally ended not so long ago, and the retreat from Gaza was still fresh, i highly doubt the Palestinians would see Fatah making deals with "the occupiers" and be like "hey, i like Fatah!", in the end it could had been counterproductive.
It may come as a shock, but the Palestinians dislike the Israeli government, and those who collaborate with them, are usually called traitors.
If i had to take a more realistic guess tho, just Israel balancing Hamas/Fatah so no group becomes a problem, a divided Palestine is a controlled Palestine.
Or it could just be both things at the same time.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Ah, nothing like the soft bigotry of low expectations. "Yes, it is a criminal gang ran by Palestinians, BUT it's the Israelis fault for letting them run rampant because... this memo says so."
Better get UNRWA on the low cigarette supply. That's a violation of international and humanitarian law, as Israel MUST protect that precious tobacco supply.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
It is literally Isreal’s responsibility under international law to provide security for civilians and civilian infrastructure as the occupation force.
The_Bear_Jew@reddit
Provide a source that says an occupying force needs to protect incoming aid.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
The duties of the occupying power are spelled out primarily in the 1907 Hague Regulations (arts 42-56) and the Fourth Geneva Convention (GC IV, art. 27-34 and 47-78), as well as in certain provisions of Additional Protocol I and customary international humanitarian law.
Agreements concluded between the occupying power and the local authorities cannot deprive the population of occupied territory of the protection afforded by international humanitarian law (GC IV, art. 47) and protected persons themselves can in no circumstances renounce their rights (GC IV, art. 8).
The main rules o f the law applicable in case of occupation state that:
The occupant does not acquire sovereignty over the territory. Occupation is only a temporary situation, and the rights of the occupant are limited to the extent of that period. The occupying power must respect the laws in force in the occupied territory, unless they constitute a threat to its security or an obstacle to the application of the international law of occupation. The occupying power must take measures to restore and ensure, as far as possible, public order and safety. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the occupying power must ensure sufficient hygiene and public health standards, as well as the provision of food and medical care to the population under occupation. The population in occupied territory cannot be forced to enlist in the occupier’s armed forces. Collective or individual forcible transfers of population from and within the occupied territory are prohibited. Transfers of the civilian population of the occupying power into the occupied territory, regardless whether forcible or voluntary, are prohibited. Collective punishment is prohibited. The taking of hostages is prohibited. Reprisals against protected persons or their property are prohibited. The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited. The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited, unless absolutely required by military necessity during the conduct of hostilities. Cultural property must be respected. People accused of criminal offences shall be provided with proceedings respecting internationally recognized judicial guarantees (for example, they must be informed of the reason for their arrest, charg ed with a specific offence and given a fair trial as quickly as possible). Personnel of the International Red Cross/Red Crescent Movement must be allowed to carry out their humanitarian activities. The ICRC, in particular, must be given access to all protected persons, wherever they are, whether or not they are deprived of their liberty.
https://www.icrc.org/en/article/occupation-international-humanitarian-law-questions
Israel is guilty of literally every single transgression listed here. Every. Single. One.
The_Bear_Jew@reddit
Literally nothing in what you posted says they have to protect aid from bad actors within the population they are occupying. Thank you for proving my point.
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Forget protecting the aid convoys, it is literally Isreal’s responsibility to provide and distribute the aid itself.
Mantiskindenspines@reddit
They allowed it into Gaza. it's Gazan's problem now. If Gazans want to eat it or set it on fire that's on them
The_Bear_Jew@reddit
That doesn't say they need to distribute it themselves or take responsibility just that it is provided and letting the trucks in is providing aid. You are truly delusional here, seeing giants in the windmills. They are not responsible for how the citizens of Gaza then distribute it among themselves and in fact interfering risks violating the "The confiscation of private property by the occupant is prohibited" part of what you posted, since if they tried to take it from someone it would be taking their property at that point. Similarly the "The destruction or seizure of enemy property is prohibited" stops them from interfering or getting rid of any weapons used by the people of Gaza in securing said aid.
ArCovino@reddit
Every looter the IDF kills is another innocent Palestinian they’re accused of genociding. You’d complain then, too.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
I didn't realize cigarettes fell under that umbrella.
Lazorgunz@reddit
you seem lost, Isra bots are on /r/worldnews
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
I didn't realize the crime families were such a force of good that they should be allowed to steal food and other supplies.
Round-Friendship9318@reddit
You should probably ask isreal why they let them run loose then.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Gosh, imagine if they had dropped the hammer on them. You whiners would have said something like this:
"How can those (((Zionists))) kill all those INNOCENT Palestinians?! Oh, they said they were criminals, but you knwo they're just lying because this one TikTok I just watched!"
Round-Friendship9318@reddit
Isreal is already killing tons of innocents, why do they suddenly care so much about this one crime family?
Is it becease starving palestians helps with the ethnic cleansing? Nah, that cant be!
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Gosh, damned if they do, damned if they don't. Guess the best course of action is to continue what they are doing and ignore the pearl clutchers.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Watching you contort yourself into a pretzel in real-time to avoid addressing any of the massive logical inconsistencies on display here is truly spectacular.
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
So, uhhh, asking for a friend. What does Israel "dropping the hammer" look like?
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
"Crime families" as though Israel hasn't been blocking international aid into Gaza in an effort to starve out the population.
This stinks of apologia
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Okay, then what are you complaining about? They're doing exactly as you pretend they are, so who exactly are you whining to?
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
What level of delusion is this? Somehow the UN, US, and I agree on a set of facts that you disagree with and you think I’m making shit up.
Israel is literally starving a population to death, a war crime mind you, and now they’re refusing to provide as required of an occupying force.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Which "facts" are we talking about again? The entitled crime families robbing supply convoys or Hamas as the benevolent protectors?
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
You're unaware that tobacco is a staple good?
You're unaware that tobacco is one of the world's most addictive substances?
Or you're just taking the piss and relishing the opportunity to joke about what are probably the worst living conditions on the face of the earth right now?
Lazorgunz@reddit
you seem lost, Isra bots are on /r/worldnews
waffle_fries4free@reddit
The same Palestinians who are kept from protecting the convoys are the same ones running the gangs?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Who are these mysterious "protectors?"
ODHH@reddit (OP)
For anyone confused by the insinuation here, Gaza has a police department
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_Civil_Police_Force
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
And who controls the police department?
Oh, why look, the very first paragraph!
ODHH@reddit (OP)
Hamas is the government you silly goose.
They have a civil service too.
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
So you admit, you want Hamas to take over the convoys and steal the aid from its own people.
metamorphotits@reddit
???????
bro please learn to read, you're embarrassing the 79% of americans who can
Kinojitsu@reddit
Ain't no way US literacy rate is only 79% right?
metamorphotits@reddit
it bad
teacherz cri eveytiem
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
What part did I miss? OP stated they had the Gaza Police as an alternative, but as I showed with actual evidence (Not feels, which I'm aware is something you don't operate outside of) that they had been taken over by Hamas 18 years ago when tehy violently took over the Strip. So, who is this mysterious non-Hamas alternative?
metamorphotits@reddit
serious question: why bother talking to me if you already "know" i only operate on "feels"? tell me again how you're the logical one here and this isn't about your feelings, lol.
regardless, the part you missed was the whole damn article. if you had actually read it (again, condolences for your functional illiteracy), you would know what and who is enabling the looting of these trucks, thus revealing the group best positioned to prevent looting. buuuut you didn't, and i suspect you won't.
CarbonatedConfidence@reddit
Are you quoting someone or just making things up. Sounds like you're putting words in someone's mouth.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
That's the point, Israel won't let anyone else protect the convoys...
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Like Hamas? Absolutely brilliant, sounds like you got a future in UNRWA.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
No. Did you that most Palestinians aren't members of Hamas or criminal gangs?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
So who is this official "non-Hamas" protector of convoys you had in mind?
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Gee, do you think anyone in Palestine has a vested interest in making sure the aid gets to the people that need it? Maybe them
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Can you actually provide a specific name, or is it just more ambiguous wishcasting?
waffle_fries4free@reddit
You mean wish casting like thinking that bombing a population back into the stone age will keep the peace forever?
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
No, you are saying that a palestian group should be the ones that distribute the aid, but you are not giving a name of any group who should be given that responsibility
waffle_fries4free@reddit
So unless they're an "official" group, they somehow aren't going to do a good job or will just steal them or....what?
There are people that want nothing but to feed people and give medicine. Maybe Israel might have to talk with the Palestinians they aren't bombing and see if they could guard the convoys.
Or the IDF could guard them, since they invaded and bombed most of the infrastructure
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
The reason for an official group to distribute aid as opposed to random palestians is that a group has history that can be tracked to see if they would be trustworthy, and has accountability by being an official group as opposed to a random person.
If you give the job to a random person, even if they want to do good, there is no history to fall back on to deem them trustworthy and no form of accountability if they just steal aid and go into hiding.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Sounds like the IDF needs to guard them then
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Sure I agree to that, but you were saying that somebody should be distributing them, but don't know who
waffle_fries4free@reddit
I may not have had the opportunity in this thread to say so, but I'll take either one. But it needs to be one or both. Not guarding them then not letting anyone else guard them is awful
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
So which non hamas group should be guarding it? You say you want palestians to guard it, but you ha e not shared which group you want to do it. I think it's fine if Israel guards it if no palestian group is up for the task, but you seem to think that there is a group who can do the job
waffle_fries4free@reddit
I'd bet even official services in the country are done by volunteers at this point. Most of the infrastructure is rubble
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Okay and? The idf doesn't want to trust random people
waffle_fries4free@reddit
A decent amount of the adults have to pass checks to work or go outside of Gaza. If they've been arrested for awful crimes or have ties to Hamas, Israel already knows them too
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Working outside of gaza does not mean they trust them in handling aid. I should not need to explain this to you, I refuse to belive you are this dense
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Please oh please let me know the list of qualifications one needs to help distribute aid in a warzone
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Well for one, trust that they will not just take the aid themself, hence having a proper organization do it
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Which one hasn't been bombed?
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
I don't know, you are the one who is saying that palestians should be the ones distributing aid, and I am trying to explain that 0 governments would just hand random people aid for everyone
waffle_fries4free@reddit
So they can act as their own doctors, their own policeman, their own social workers, mechanics, mechanical engineers and plumbers in the middle of a warzone, but they aren't qualified to help distribute aid in areas controlled by the IDF?
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Correct, because random people with no history of distributing aid. All of those are examples of people who can do a task, because they were trained in said task. You don't just get to be a doctor because no one else is around, the police are controlled by hamas, social workers are trained to do their work, engineers and plumbers are trained for their work, they are all trained to do a job that is not related to handing out aid.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
None of those doctors or engineers or policeman have a clue how to get supplies from the border to the places that need them?
If they can't, then the IDF should have already been doing it. Blaming these thefts on all Palestinians in areas controlled by the IDF when no other local organizations are allowed to help is cruel
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Again, I agree that the IDF should be doing it, but you have been claiming that palestians should do it by just handing the aid to random people
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Those Palestinians that stole the aid are responsible, I think this issue is manufactured since Israel created nearly the entire environment where all this is happening and controls nearly facet of Gaza.
Regular Palestinians are being given a fixed deck of cards and some people wonder why they aren't winning the game
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
Im not surprised they aren't winning, they were given a shit deck, a goverment that doesn't care for them, and a country their goverment picked a fight with that also doesn't care for them. It's a tragedy for the palestians people that is not easily solved
waffle_fries4free@reddit
I appreciate you saying that. And I agree with what you said about their government (Hamas), they don't care about them and they do definitely deserve to be destroyed.
I appreciate the back and forth. Have a good night
Proper_Razzmatazz_36@reddit
You too
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
So that's a no, you actually don't have a name or solution or name, just the usual bullshit.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Yep. Guess Palestinians have to starve since they didn't get their 501c3 paperwork filled out. Good thing this recent conflict will secure peace forever!
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
That's right, double down on the fact you were making much ado about nothing and can't bullshit your way out of it.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Man, it's almost as if the Israelis may have to talk to Palestinians or guard the shipments themselves. What a conundrum!
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
"Talk to Palestinians." Of course, it was so simple! Hey guys, this guy has solved the Israel-Hamas war! There it is folks, this guy has a future in wartime logistics.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Oh, you're right, most of them are children anyway. Let's just level the place
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
So you're saying all the criminal gangs are now children? Or is that the mysterious protectors? Either way, is it wise to entrust supply convoys to children?
waffle_fries4free@reddit
The word doing all the heavy lifting in my last comment is "most." As in "most" of the causalities and fatalities in Gaza have been these kids you just started thinking about
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
According to whom?
waffle_fries4free@reddit
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-gaza-war-palestinians-statistics-40000-7ebec13101f6d08fe10cedbf5e172dde
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5wel11pgdo
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
LOL
roydez@reddit
He gave a BBC link to a UN investigation that sampled and verified 8200 deaths.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Is that LOL a better source for death toll numbers or does Israel basically agree with these numbers?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Yes, the Hamas ran Ministry of Health is your source, the same one you don't trust to protect and distribute form supply convoys, but some other mysterious protector groups you have zero clue exists.
I really love the cognitive dissonance here.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
I tried typing that into Google to see the much better source you had for how many children are dead in Gaza but it doesn't pull up anything...
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Does Google have an office there or something? And who was the mysterious protector you had in mind again?
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Yes, because if you can't figure this out, then no one can. Bombs for peace! Fuck those kids, amirite?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
I mean, as far as we all can tell, you believe that Palestinains should rape and murder for "justice."
waffle_fries4free@reddit
You've shown me the error of my ways. You're exactly right! Even the infants in the incubators are just as responsible as Hamas! They'd just grow up to become terrorists because they all hate Israel for no reason, since Israel treats them all so well! Really appreciate you walking me through it like that, makes total sense now
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
Yes, you are justifying rape and murder. That is why this conflict can't be resolved when one side believes that this is an acceptable means of resolution and then coddled by online tankies.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Where did I justify those attacks? When I said Israel shouldn't be killing so many kids or when I said they should help them guard aid shipments?
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
"Oh, you're right, most of them are children anyway. Let's just level the place."
" Guess Palestinians have to starve since they didn't get their 501c3 paperwork filled out. Good thing this recent conflict will secure peace forever!"
If you want serious answers, try actually answering questions that you directly made assertions about. Otherwise, I'm just going to treat you like you've been acting since October 8th. If you don't really give a shit (Which i suspect you don't), then continue wasting time online.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Qualifying your first comment by calling "soft bigotry" for Palestinians not stopping gangs from stealing the food when the IDF is actively stopping Palestinians from doing anything about guarding the convoys told me you're not serious from the jump. Silly responses get the same in kind
Own_Thing_4364@reddit
And there you have it. Game on, back to our regular show!
AntifaAnita@reddit
It was the Police until the IDF murdered them all for handing out aid.
BlackJesus1001@reddit
Armed civilians, Hamas wasn't the only armed group in Gaza and many civilians worked as guards with whatever old guns or clubs they could find.
Most are now dead or hiding, accused of being affiliated with Hamas or simply killed because they were holding weapons in the open (even when included on NGO itineraries cleared by the IDF)
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
"Protecting" the convoys by diverting all the stuff to their stashes?
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Who? The Palestinians that can't guard them or the criminals stealing them? Unless you don't know the difference between enemy soldiers, criminals and the other 98% of Palestinians
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
They're the bloody same.
waffle_fries4free@reddit
Ah yes, impeccable logic, every Palestinian is just another member of Hamas or criminal gangs.l
Waffles86@reddit
There we go. Israel is absolved of all culpability of the death they cause because of Hamas. Don’t ask for proof, that’s antisemitism.
Israel is absolved of all culpability of the lawlessness that follows the complete destruction of Gaza because why cant these starving Palestinians who have been blmbed for a year just follow the rules?
Nothing can justify October 7, but October 7 justifies everything huh?
valentc@reddit
Because they're in control of the regions. No other government exist in the region, so who else is going to provide security?
Do you seriously think Israel has no responsibility to allow safe distribution of aid?
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? Are you seriously making a joke about the lack of aid to the region and people turning to crime?
Why even make a stupid ass comment like this? What possible ason do you have for being such an evil trash person?
bananasrfuzy@reddit
"What the actual fuck is wrong with you? Are you seriously making a joke about the lack of aid to the region and people turning to crime?
Why even make a stupid ass comment like this? What possible ason do you have for being such an evil trash person?"
First time speaking with a zionist? They happen to be a disgusting group of people.
Pklnt@reddit
Israel's MO: "We're going to make a military operation there, but whatever happens isn't our fault nor our responsibility."
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
And when the IDF shoots the thieves they get to have big shrieking headlines about how da evul Joos are killing starving gay Palestinian infant girls who were just trying to get a crust of bread.
BlackJesus1001@reddit
The only time they even claimed to have shot someone in defence of a convoy it was later revealed they just opened up on a crowd of civilians.
They've hit more convoys themselves than the thieves.
IDFbombskidsdaily@reddit
Huh?
PhilipRiversCuomo@reddit
Thank you for not even attempting to address the gaping holes in your logic here.
So, you acknowledge that Israel is purposefully creating a shortage of a staple good with extremely inelastic demand (e.g., one of the most addictive substances known to man). But you're unwilling to acknowledge that Israel bears any culpability for the *extremely* predictable result of blockading tobacco supplies.
You're accusing the IDF of being so naive and stupid that the ADL is about to highlight this comment as antisemitic. Israel damn well knows that choking the supply of cigarettes would create a massive and lucrative black market for tobacco and therefore gangs/violence/chaos.
If Israel doesn't want to be held accountable for what happens in Gaza, they should stop the military occupation of Gaza. It's pretty fucking simple.
When you hold unilateral control over the coastline, border, and airspace of a territory, people blame you for what happens inside of said territory.
AstartesFanboy@reddit
I’m always amazed at how “intelligent” and “smart” people are incapable of free thought and take everything at face value, incapable of believing that anything supporting their point of view could possibly be misinformation. It’s wild
EternalAngst23@reddit
So… Hamas?
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