Tesla Model 3 Performance vs BMW M3 Competition — Track Battle — Cammisa's Ultimate Comparison Test
Posted by SireEvalish@reddit | cars | View on Reddit | 206 comments
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Hugh-Jass24@reddit
Both cars are awesome, but for the price I'd take the Tesla Model 3 Performance + Miata+ GR86 combo over the BMW.
RevvCats@reddit
A Model 3 Performance is $56,630 delivered (tax excluded) and sure you can get $7500 tax rebate but that only applies if you get it in stealth gray, all the other colors cost 1-2k extra and make the car too expensive to qualify for the federal rebate.
Tesla loves to throw in an extra -$5000 of 5 year gas savings in their price and sure over time you’ll save money but that doesn’t come out of your car loan.
A BMW M3c xDrive starts at $86,475 delivered and no you don’t need the $9000 carbon ceramic brakes to kick ass on the track. Cheap steel rotors and track pads work perfectly fine to kick ass.
So the price difference is $29,845 if you want any color other than dark grey, up to $37,345 if you get it in dark grey and get the tax rebate
A Miata Club starts at $33,670 delivered, $38,470 if you get the Brembo package. Even more if you want the RF
A GR86 with the performance pack starts $33,105 delivered, $35,185 if you want the premium trim.
You’re only getting one of the cars not both, which is still a substantial price gap but not as crazy as they make it sound.
mocoyne@reddit
It is exactly the price gap they said, because their car was close to fully optioned, which is over $100k.
RevvCats@reddit
That red model 3 perf they showed on video costs $58,630 and doesn’t qualify for the $7500 tax rebate. If and only if you get it in dark grey that cost comes down to $49,130 after the rebate
An Isle of Man green M3c xDrive is $87,125, you can ditch those fancy 9000 dollar carbon fiber brakes for $500 worth of carbotech of GLoc track pads.
That’s a $37,995 difference, down to $28,495 if you want to get the Tesla in red like the video.
Cheapest Miata can get is the sport trim in black at $30,170 but they showed a grey Miata which means it has to be the club trim and costs at least $34,120
They also didn’t show just any GR86 but a Trueno edition that cost $35,815
So going off the cars shown in the video, the Toyota and Mazda add up to at least $69,935 plus the red doesn’t qualify for a tax rebate Tesla is……
$128,565
That means youd need to put $41,440 worth of options on the BMW to make Jasons statement true. Add on the carbon fiber brakes, add in the $4500 carbon fiber seats, add in 3k dollars for a full leather interior and another thousand for carbon fiber dash trim and the statement is still a lie.
You can get one car for the price difference not two, especially not the two they showed.
cpxchewy@reddit
It's not really fair to compare the two most expensive trim cars shown in the video and not use the same M3C Xdrive w/ carbon package, m carbon exterior package (lol it's different) and some other bells and whistles.
The M3C Xdrive in the video was about 112k. It had the Carbon Package and M Carbon Exterior Package and a few other things.
So yes, it's still less than the Model 3P + GR86 + Miata shown in the video but much closer.
If you're able to use the cheapest miata at 30k, the cheapest gr86 at 30k, and then the cheapest M3P at 56k. that's 116k. Sure, still more unless you qualify for the 7500 rebate (which if you can afford those 3 cars new prob not) but those numbers that you gave are also skewed towards BMW.
RevvCats@reddit
Highest I’ll go on the BMW is $95,625 that with the color as shown in the video and the those stupidly expensive carbon fiber brakes that you don’t need but we’ll option them. No other bullshit options, yes you can spend over 100k on one and you can click on all the option boxes with Porsche and double a 911’s cost but it’s not going to go any faster.
That’s still under the price of the three cars he showed on the video
Cheapest you can possible get the three cars. - $49,130 for the Tesla in dark grey only - $30,170 for the Miata in black only - $31,085 for the GR86 and that one you actually have some choice of color black, grey, dark grey, or blue
$110,485 > $95,625
So it’s a lie when you compare the cars explicitly shown in the video and it’s still a lie when you compare the three cheapest versions of the Tesla + Miata + GR86 against the BMW that isn’t optioned to the gills with needles shit, and it’s even more of a lie when you take off the carbon fiber brakes that you don’t need.
Poverty spec for everyone $110,485 > $85,300 and BMW lets you chose between white or yellow with no up charge.
ctzn4@reddit
Your bias is on full display. He literally said in the video "for the price of that M3..." And you omit that by saying "no other bullshit options," which, of course, that M3 press car would've come with because it's a press car.
You did the hard part of the math, so I'll do the easy one. Let's only look at what we can see and not presume any of the interior options. An) M3 comp xDrive (85,300 starting) in Isle of Man green (+650, with the carbon package (+14,300) and executive package (+1,600 and CANNOT be removed from the configurator w/o taking out the carbon pkg), M Alcantara steering wheel (+500, it's either this or +1,700 for DAPP, one MUST be optioned per the configurator), and destination (+1,175), we will be sitting at $103,525 for the M3. (build)
I don't know how you got $95,625 but even if it's the base car plus a 14k carbon package you're well above 99k. Your math is fishy.
If we dive deeper and speculate on the "bullshit options" that the press car perhaps came with (+2,550 for full leather, +700 for parking assist, +1,700 for DAPP but no M Alcantara steering wheel, +4,700 for M Carbon exterior package), we're at $112,275 (build here) which puts us above your favorably estimated total for a TM3P + Miata + GR86 of $110,485.
In either case, it's about -6.7% to +1.62% of margin, and if he made that claim, there is good reason to believe he did the bare minimum math to allow him to make such an outlandish claim (3 cars for the price of an expensive one).
RevvCats@reddit
I’ve got the configurator up right now. 2025 M3 competition xDrive base price $85,300 - $650 for Isle of Man green - $8500 carbon brake kit - $1175 destination and handling - $95,625 build
You can option the brakes (which again you don’t actually need for that M3 to be an absolute demon on the track) without all that other junk
It’s a misleading price because you can get all that performance for a lot less money than he’s claiming. It’s a misleading comparison and if you want to get the three cars he explicitly shows on the video you’re paying over 125k
It’d be like reviewing a Porsche 911 with a $120,100 base cost, but loading it up with $67,080 of cosmetic options (that’s as high as I could get it, it’s not double as I had claimed but +56% is a hefty sum) and then tacking on the $6900 rear wing which has some performance benefit and complaining the $196,865 car is a bad value (that includes destination and a sport exhaust that had to be paired with the wing) build
HighHokie@reddit
Pathetic
RevvCats@reddit
So you don’t like it when someone does the math and shows Jason’s statement is a load of crap?
The only scenario where his statement is true is if you poverty spec the Tesla, Miata, and GR86 (which btw aren’t the cars he shows in the video) and inflate the M3’s cost by loading it up with every option under the sun.
I’m not even arguing the Model 3 Performance isn’t a value, but you’re reasonable getting it + the Miata or the GR86 without paying extra money. Choose one not both.
HighHokie@reddit
No one is going to out and buy three cars instead of one. The point of that whole segment is to emphasize how inexpensive the model 3 is relative to the vehicle it’s being compared to.
brentsg@reddit
They are called options for a reason. I didn't look at the spec, but there are 3 options (carbon fiber pack, ceramic brakes, racing seats) that comprise \~$18,000. Track focused people will often buy at least 2 of these things, and deep pockets people will grab them all because why not.. but it's silly to frame these as necessary in some hypothetical that involves buying a whole garage worth of cars.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
Good price comparison. I think I'd just get the Miata and not get any of the rest.
MembershipNo2077@reddit
It's also notable that the $7500 rebate in the US is absolutely not long for this world.
Time-Maintenance2165@reddit
I'm not sure what your point is here. It doesn't come out of your car loan, but it's a savings you get every month. So I'd say this is only relevant if you're struggling to get the loan for the car, in which case you shouldn't be spending that much on a car.
RevvCats@reddit
If you’re comparing prices of cars you should be comparing the price you have to hand over to the dealer to get that car. If you’re taking out a car loan you’re paying interest on that $5000 in estimated fuel savings.
It’d be like if Ferrari put a 10k garage queen discount on their website because your estimated fuel usage is zero over 5 years
Hugh-Jass24@reddit
I think theirs was over 100K as Tested.
RevvCats@reddit
Well yeah it was loaded to the gills with options. It had the carbon ceramic brakes (which are cool but you don’t need to go fast on the track), probably had the 2-3k full leather interior, 1000 dollar carbon fiber dash trim, hell probably had the full 15k inside/outside carbon trim + carbon brake package… all stuff you don’t need.
Alright lets hammer down on the cars they showed in the video
M3c xDrive in Isle of Man green without any bullshit options is $87,125
A Model 3 performance in ultra red costs $58,630 and doesn’t qualify for the federal tax rebate, so there’s money coming in on the backend.
$28,495 cheaper loan, yes that’s is a substantial gap but you’re not getting two cars for the difference.
Jason overhyping Tesla!?! Gosh who could have ever seen that coming
And we haven’t even touched on how they completely glossed over the state of the battery after that short 15 min track session and if it was capable of hitting the track again after 40-60 mins.
ctzn4@reddit
Jesus Christ, this community is nauseating. The man posts ONE questionable review and you just can't shut up about it, even after he admitted multiple times that he shouldn't have titled it as a "full review" and focused too much on the technical stuff rather than the truck as a whole package (which is admittedly crap). Talk about throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
RevvCats@reddit
We have one highly questionable review and now one review where in my view he grossly overstates the price gap AND completely glosses over the state of the battery at the end of their short track session. How does that not raise any red flags in your mind?
ctzn4@reddit
I'll link my other comment here so that I don't repeat myself.
The good thing about math is that it is objective. I would not call a $103k to $112k variance in options compared to $110k for 3 cars all in a "grossly overstated price gap," unless you are also into hyperbole as Jason is.
He didn't address the SoC at the end of the session, but I'll push back and say that it is unreasonable to presume an owner who brings a Model 3 to the track (who is already in the rare <1% of owners) will be able to track the car consistently for more than 15 minutes like they're Randy Pobst.
More importantly, it is not relevant to the question he posed for this segment, which is in its entirety "can they both hold up to a 15 minute lapping session without overheating?" The answer was "no" for both cars.
In case you missed it, you're amongst one of the "you bunch of dickbags have already made up your mind." You have manipulated numbers to your advantage every step of the way to try to "um ackshually" a single digit percentage difference in stated MSRP. Find something else to moan about, please.
withsexyresults@reddit
I’ve seen them on track fairly often, the old ones not the new one but they make each session. There’s tracks with superchargers on site that makes it even easier
element515@reddit
Also, I feel like many people buying a m3 aren’t going to qualify for the tax rebate
ChocolateBreadstick@reddit
Well put. I think this is one example of how biased and cherry-picked this review is. This is not professional journalism, it’s a car influencer who is in reality taking money from Tesla. Very entertaining though.
reijin64@reddit
You could also go a model 3 performance and a used F80 and still have money to turn the F80 M3 into a tracktool as well.
Bradymyhero@reddit
You do realize there are other costs involved? Three cars = three insurance policies, needing space for three cars, maintaining three cars, gas in two of them, etc. Not to mention depreciation.
The G8X M3 has hardly depreciated...even examples with healthy mileage are still going for over $60k
ChocolateBreadstick@reddit
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. Comparing MSRPs is never a good method of comparing how expensive a car really is. Especially when for the Tesla they’ve included potential gas savings and rebates that most people affording these cars won’t qualify for.
HighHokie@reddit
Yeah but then id have three cars.
Hugh-Jass24@reddit
Yes I do realize. But you dont have to have all 3 insurances active at the same time. Space is a factor for most people but not for the ones who can afford a new M3 performance. Depreciation only affects when you sell, I keep my cars forever so I wouldn't mind.
hi_im_bored13@reddit
Thats just the comparison they used in the video
e136@reddit
I thought that was a weird comparison. What's so great about both the Model 3 and M3 is they do everything well. If you wanted 3 cars to meet your needs you'd be better off with the M3 long range and the miata
SeaFuel2@reddit
No you wouldn't
Hugh-Jass24@reddit
Ok 👍
CivilBodybuilder5671@reddit
tesla mazda everything 40i owners all the same to proud little people to funny all never experienced real M's
savageotter@reddit
I really hate that Tesla owners have tried to steal the name M3
bro_curls@reddit
Head over to r/Mazda and you got people calling the Mazda 3 a M3 too.
Ian_Kilmister@reddit
I had to stop a friend who called our other friend's Mazda 3 a 3-series.
Prestigious_Good_805@reddit
Tbf the way bmw is headed soon the Mazda will be much nicer than a 3 series
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
This is a top tier r/cars.
I can’t wait until this Mazda circlejerk is over. It was ford about 8 years ago, then Hyundai Kia, now it’s Mazda.
dickmarchinko@reddit
I mean Mazda's are really nice for what they are. They're not BMW's but I'm not gonna act like they're one of the nicer budget brands out there right now.
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
They’re nice but they are not a class above the competitors like everyone on here makes it seem like. New Hyundais,Honda, and Toyota really good too.
dickmarchinko@reddit
In style I think they absolutely are. I'm reliability they're below Lexus and Toyota but above everybody else, at least till recently. Lexus and Toyota have apparently dipped in quality the last half decade but we need more time to tell. Hyundai's aren't in the picture. Interior is on par with anybody.
Above average reliability, some of the best exterior style, average interior, and tech.
It is worth noting out of the average consumer vehicles as being exceptional. Just like Stellantis vehicles are worth noting as being really bad comparatively.
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
They do have decent styling for some of their models, but some like the Mazda 3 hatch are a miss IMO. Too much plastic on the CX-50; the CX-5 is probably one of their better styled models, and the CX-90 is a 2nd. They do look nice, but you end up paying for it with worst-in-class practicality and occupant space for most of their vehicles, which is not competitive when people buy SUVs for the extra space. We rented a CX-5 once, and the rear seat space was a joke; it was barely bigger than my Civic.
Their current reliability is largely attributed to the outdated platforms, which haven't seen significant updates in a decade. Their fuel economy across most models has consistently been the worst in class for years, a fact that often goes unmentioned.
Take a look at how many issues they are having with the new CX-90, don't expect their reliability rankings to stay at 3-4 next year. At least they woke up and decided to use Toyotas hybrid system since they can't develop a decent hybrid system on their own.
Having the least efficient, and least practical vehicles in most segments doesn't stand out as exceptional to me, even if the car has soft touch window buttons.
The other odd thing is, they decided to cut cost on some models by getting rid of independent rear suspension and tried to market it like it was some positive thing, go drive the CX-50, or Mazda 3 on Michigan roads and you'll definitely notice its not positive.
dickmarchinko@reddit
I mean I don't even gauge new models, they haven't gotten the mileage to take into account so many aspects of reliability. So when I talk, I'm talking like late teens into early 20s. I have a Mazda 3, bought it last week, and a cx-5 which we've had for a year plus. We've had pretty much everything except a Toyota/Lexus as far as cars over the last decade plus. Honda was decent, and that's about it. We don't like the style of most Toyota cars.
Least fuel efficient, IDK about that but if getting 37+ miles to the gallon is bad then I'm fine with it being bad.
Handling is a non issue, there's not a car out that I've ever driven that feels bad in the last like... 20 years. There's better, sure, but IDC as long as it's good, which they all are.
Most issues you and others have is nit picked shit.
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
Having the least fuel efficient vehicles in most segments that they compete in, which those things are priority, is nitpicking.
dickmarchinko@reddit
Read my previous comment
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
I did.
You just brush things off that most people care about lmao. You could’ve just went and bought a base model Nissan and called it a day based off how judge things.
dickmarchinko@reddit
Most, not even remotely. You're comparing this sub and the general populace. They're not even remotely the same.
Fuel efficiency is comparable, even if the lowest, that's my point
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
You can tell what most shopper prefer by looking at the top selling SUVs...
p1aycrackthesky@reddit
But dude didn't you know Mazda is a luxury manufacturer now? They raised all of their prices and they also told you they're now a luxury car company, so that automatically means that they are! That's how it works, right?
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
Jinba ittai!
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
I had a new 2015 Mazda 6 and it was nice for a standard mid-size, and I thought it handled decently well, but some of these takes are wild.
argothewise@reddit
What are you talking about? BMW has been putting out good cars in recent years
RepublicComplete1776@reddit
BMW has ALWAYS put out good cars in their lineups. They just so happen to also be into turning a profit.
Prestigious_Good_805@reddit
Ugly, plasticy cheap interiors, enormous screens I’d say they’re on a downward trajectory. I recently drove a new 3 series and it was a definite step below the 2017 gen I drove for a while before
Powerful_Repeat_6157@reddit
Have you sat inside a Mazda and actually felt how put together the interior is? The 3 looks nice buts it’s full of the possibly the flimsiest materials I’ve seen.
Manafont-@reddit
Interesting... In my experience the F30 was a low-point for 3 Series interiors (compared to E90 gen), with the G20 being a massive step back in the right direction.
lowstrife@reddit
Built quality wise it's better, you don't hear the interior plastics and trim of the whole car shift whenever you take a corner. Loudly.
Everything else is still mid as fuck though. I was honestly more impressed by Mini than the BMW stuff. Especially once you go high in price, like the 7 or 8 series. The interior felt the same as the cars which were half the price.
I hate to say it, but the IX was the only one doing something interesting.
Napalm3n3ma@reddit
Can confirm. Own 2017 M2. New ones feel a lot cheaper it’s weird.
bestselfnice@reddit
Oof
Snoo93079@reddit
I went from a Mazda 3 to a model 3 AMA
savageotter@reddit
Call us when you buy the BMW
Trollygag@reddit
Not the 90s anymore.
savageotter@reddit
Have you seen the cloths Gen Z is wearing. it might as well be.
imnoherox@reddit
Text us when you buy the BMW! 🤪
snsv@reddit
You mean an M3 to an M3?
Snoo93079@reddit
Honestly the model 3 feels like an electrified Mazda 3 in terms of driving dynamics. Which is good because I really enjoyed driving the Mazda 3
HighClassProletariat@reddit
I made a Spider-Man pointing meme with all 3 M3s some months ago, made some folks mad.
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
I used to have a Model 3 and an M3. Tesla owners got on my fucking nerves with that shit.
zipciofounder@reddit
I also owned a Tesla for a bit to try out the self-driving.
I won’t say the following is a big reason as to why I sold it, however, this was definitely a factor….
Tesla fanatics are mostly insufferable. I ran into so many of them that just somewhat ruined my afternoon, or morning.
Before I moved, my neighbor kept trying to tell me “I bet your Tesla is more fun than your Lambo!”, I told him about 87 times that it wasn’t.
He was an older guy who was alone, and kept asking me to ride with him to one of his Sunday Tesla meets. One night he asked me after telling me his job has been rough, so I went, and it was like an episode of the twilight zone.
A bunch of guys standing around with the same exact cars talking about PPF and ceramic coats, while talking bad about ICE drivers.
I hope nobody experiences this….
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
Car enthusiasts come in all flavors, and I'm a pretty tolerant guy, but a Tesla meet doesn't seem all that appealing to me. To each their own, but to sit around and complain about ICE drivers is wild.
The coolest thing about car meets is seeing different vehicles and chatting with their owners. I went to one Cars & Coffee and they had all the exotics in their own area, but so many people were scoping out the mint 94 Accord wagon. Seriously, it looked absolutely brand new. That was fun.
zipciofounder@reddit
That is my point as well. Idc what you’re into, but the point of shows is seeing different things.
Everyone can have fun together, the only time you have to avoid others is on rides when you have an exotic, because on rides, exotic brakes are far different from most other sports cars.
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
Yeah, not a big fan of rides, myself. It inevitably leads to someone doing something dumb, unless it's a small group of close friends.
zipciofounder@reddit
I know what you mean, but exotic rides are definitely much safer. Nobody wants to crash into a car that is the price of a house.
I’ve been on many, never seen someone do anything crazy.
However, we have almost rear ended each other a few times, lol.
PhilBird69@reddit
Is this due to ceramic brakes and them needing to be heated up? I've never driven an exotic so I've got no idea.
zipciofounder@reddit
No, exotic cars just stop much faster, and they feel like you’re going slow when doing 90mph-100mph.
My friends and I have almost rear ended each other many times. If I was in my BMW in some scenarios, I would have hit them.
mandatoryclutchpedal@reddit
Lamborghini? Don't care Ferrari? Whatever. Bugatti? Rather watch Archer clips while shitting in a porta potty. Porsche? McLaren? Vette? Classic muscle car? Mustang/Camaro blah blah fucking blah. Don't give 2 shits.
Well preserved everyday car from the 80s and 90s? I'm enjoying conversation with the owner. Turbo K car that looks like it came off the showroom floor pushing massive boost? Yes. First gen MR2 parked next to a Geo Storm TSi parked next to 90s Mercury Capri parked next to an Izuzu Impulse... Camera is coming out
Captain_Mazhar@reddit
Yep. A VW master mechanic near me was peeved that he couldn’t get a Golf R wagon from the factory, so he built his own from an Alltrack and a Golf R hatchback. Last I saw, he was going to get it resprayed with the Golf R’s blue
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
This is the stuff I love. Totally a passion project.
My SS gets lots of attention because people who know, know what it is and it's rather rare, but it's just a car I bought.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
OMG. I remember that. All the talk about PPF and ceramic coats. Lol. The other I heard a lot was colored wraps. So many people would ask me if I was getting a wrap. Or if I PPF my car already.
Oo__II__oO@reddit
All because Ford owns "Model E", and Elon wanted S/E/X/Y
Rabo_McDongleberry@reddit
I know that. But that still don't make it an M3.
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
It doesn't bother me in context (saying M3P in a Tesla thread, for example), but when discussing a comparison between an M3 and a Model 3, you have to differentiate.
ryzenguy111@reddit
Most people I’ve seen at least say M3LR, M3P etc. And only in Tesla, which I think is justified. I don’t think anyone actually calls their model 3 an “M3” irl haha
obeytheturtles@reddit
Yeah I browse the tesla sub quite a bit and I don't think I have ever seen that once.
psaux_grep@reddit
Only if it annoys BMW people, maybe?
cookingboy@reddit
You mean I actually didn’t have two M3s in my garage? 🤣
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
Is that the dryer vent keeping the M3 warm?
I kid! Finished garage with the nice door. Looks good!
savageotter@reddit
Superman spec. Nice
rconn1469@reddit
If you mock them in their stupid subs they get so cranky.
LeftysRule22@reddit
I don’t think this is actually a thing. It gets abbreviated M3 in text on reddit/forums but nobody is literally saying “M3” and reading it in context I read it as Model 3. Like nobody is saying “M3P” that’s just the abbreviation, we still say Model 3 Performance.
savageotter@reddit
Had some ding dong at the chargers tell me that had a M3 at home. Was all ready to engage in some fun BMW chat when I learned they meant Tesla
HighHokie@reddit
No one really does this. On the tesla forums perhaps, but the shorthand makes sense there.
myredditalt5@reddit
I know the Yota and Miata get lots of love from the auto community, but… 0 way any real car person would rather own one than an M3. If you have an M3 you could have owned both and still didn’t lol
mocoyne@reddit
I think their point was that for a "Sunday drive" the m3 wasn't that fun. So if you don't need 1 car to do everything, a daily and a "sports car" could be more fun.
myredditalt5@reddit
I get that. I personally think the G80 is too fast for “ Sunday driving “. It really screams and isn’t tame at all. I just think they gloss over the point that someone optioning a 100k M3 with CCBs is by no means the person that’s in the market for a Miata or GR. Or even a Tesla for that matter. It’s a cost point but still…
sprottythotty@reddit
I’m struggling to understand what prevents a person who makes a lot of money from being allowed to buy a gr86/miata? rich people want cheap dumb fun too sometimes you know?
5167A@reddit
I saw a black Corolla GR at a local taco place and chatted with its owner. Guy was wearing a $25K Vacheron Constantin Overseas and his friend a $80K Patek Philippe Aquanaut.
sprottythotty@reddit
Exactly really rich people don’t need the most expensive car to flex their wealth they usually have more subtle flexes that only other wealthy people understand.
Hunt3rj2@reddit
No, his point is very valid. Most M3 owners are not going to risk their daily on track. It's just too much money to potentially send straight into a wall like Misha did. On top of this actually tracking an M3 is incredibly expensive. All the consumables are just expensive. And at the end of the day as fast as an M3 goes if you talk to reviewers like SavageGeese they will tell you it is a little numb.
So why bother? For the price of a GR86 with an aftermarket oil pan or accusump and oil cooler you get a more fun track car that is far, far less money to risk. It's never going to be as fast as an M3 but driving on track is less about how fast you're going and more about how hard you can push yourself and the car right to the absolute edge of what it's capable of and dancing on that edge. It's one thing to do that nearly perfect qualifying lap once, but to do it lap after lap for 20 minute sessions at a time all day long is a completely different story. To build a car that can also do that for say 3-4 hours is also a big challenge.
myredditalt5@reddit
My brother I have tracked multiple M3s that I’ve owned and done Porsche track days with my dad in his cars. I’ve also taken my BW to the track. Yes most people don’t… but there are people that do track their stuff. It isn’t cheap.. but why pay 35k for a new car…that’s less capable…just to track it anyway? If you don’t want money at risk on the track then run an old stripped down beater. Thats how everyone should start anyway because it is about the drive. They won’t be setting any lap records.
Hunt3rj2@reddit
Doing one track day or two is NBD and not the same IMO. I agree a new GR86 is not the cheapest way to a track car but not everyone wants to drive an NC Miata or Corvette
420bIaze@reddit
I own a V8 muscle car. I'm going to buy a GR86 or Miata as a second car.
I have no interest in owning a modern M3. Aside from the engine, I don't like anything about it.
myredditalt5@reddit
The point is if you have 100k to drop on your car you can obviously have a GR or a Miata. Those cars while good are not in the same class. They are known as great budget sports cars. Someone who wants an M3 will not be cross shopping those cars. Or the Model 3 for that matter
seamus_mc@reddit
I can buy nearly any car i want, i dont like anything new out there. Used to have a Miata, they are great, i have no interest in a modern m3 or any tesla. If i was going to buy an m3 to drive it would be an e30 or e36 like i used to have.
myredditalt5@reddit
My brother… while I get the sentiment there is 0 way you can “ buy any car you want “ and you’d still rather have a Miata. Nice car for what it is but it’s not a world beater or a truly nice car. We are living in a golden age of performance cars and every other enthusiast car for the last 20 years is also available. How are you glossing over Porsche GT Cars, F chassis M cars, various GM cars and Mustangs? Ive had the E36, E46 and G80 M3, along with a ZHP. They are great but they aren’t the same car as the G80. It’s not a fair comparison. The G80 is faster in a way that didn’t exist back then. We’ve simply taken a leap and it’s a different kind of car.
seamus_mc@reddit
Warren Buffet still has breakfast at the same McDonald’s he always went to…
myredditalt5@reddit
lol and he’s boring. Stop idolizing people that aren’t you and live your life
Puzzled_Region_9376@reddit
In the same boat as him. Could own any car I want and would rather have both Miata and a used model s plaid for daily. Honestly could buy a cayman instead of 86 and be happy with all 3
seamus_mc@reddit
New cars literally do nothing for me, I drive what I like and these days I prefer to spend my time and money on boats these days than on cars I don’t find inspiring. Ok, fine you are taking “any car I want” a little too far but if I wanted to drop $300k on car I could buy it tomorrow, but I don’t. So we can forgo hypercars, but even then, I don’t want one. My point stands. I’ve had as much fun throwing a Miata around a track as I did when I owned a 911.
myredditalt5@reddit
I fully understand what you mean. With respect however… I would say you are self declared “ not into the modern car scene”. Which is who my comment was about. If you are dropping 100k+ the GR/Miata combo is not how 99.9% of people would spend it. Despite them being viewed as great cars.
420bIaze@reddit
If they cost the same price, I would still rather own a GR86 or Miata than an M3.
You're right they're not in the same class. I'm not remotely interested in the class of cars M3 is in, and extremely interested in the Miata and GR86 class.
myredditalt5@reddit
So why not a Boxster or a Cayman? Same price as M3…definitively better than GR or Miata? Because you’re being purposefully contrarian lol. Those GR/Miata class is good feeling sports car on a budget. You would be a fool to pay 100k for either of those cars. They aren’t that good.
420bIaze@reddit
Because your statement was: "0 way any real car person would rather own one than an M3"
So I'm just saying I'd rather own a GR86 or Miata than an M3. Not saying they're the best cars ever, there are many cars I would prefer over a GR Miata, of which the M3 is not one.
Yes, a Boxster or Cayman are also preferable to an M3, for me.
myredditalt5@reddit
You said if they were the “ same price you’d still rather own the GR or Miata “. Which lead me to why would they spend 100k on a Mazda instead of just getting the de facto best 100k sports convertible?
420bIaze@reddit
Same price could also mean the M3 came down to Mx5/GR86 price, in this hypothetical.
The subject of this thread is your comment: "0 way any real car person would rather own [Mx5 or GR86] than an M3".
No one is saying the Mx5 is better than all $100k cars, it's just a comparison between the M3 and GR86/Mx5. I shouldn't have to persuade you what your own comment literally says.
420bIaze@reddit
I was just saying take price out of the equation when comparing these two cars, and I'm still not interested in the non-hypothetical more expensive car.
Same price could also mean the M3 came down to Mx5/GR86 price, in this hypothetical.
daver456@reddit
Who’s tracking a new M3? That thing is a barge. I’d probably take the Tesla and keep my S2000 because I’d rather be driving the Honda on curvy roads anyway.
My e46 M3 was small enough to track but my e39 M5, which weighs the same as a G80, was way too big for proper track use.
SkylineRSR@reddit
An M3 and a CT5 Black Wing is crazy. How do you decide what to drive in the morning?
myredditalt5@reddit
I’m keeping the miles off my BW right now because I want to trade it for the new BW Le Monstre haha But I usually drive the BW on weekends and daily the M3. Traffic with a manual BW isn’t great.
DharaniPatel@reddit
Depends if you're more of a car enthusiast or a driving enthusiast. If you're in the latter camp, the GR or Miata is arguably a better option. I have no seat time in any of the cars reviewed (except for a Model 3 LR), but I own the M3s fat, slow cousin: an X3 M40i. Even with 8" of clearance it's easily capable of going way faster on a public road than what's prudent. I imagine that's even more true for the M3, which is probably downright boring anywhere near the speed limit. So unless your cup of tea is yeeting up mt highways at 120+ MPH, the miata seems it'd be overall more fun.
myredditalt5@reddit
Miata is fun for sure. Not trying to be a dick but the M3 buyers Miata/GR is the M2, Cayman or Boxster. The one issue I have as an owner but also a life long car enthusiast… The M3 is and has been truly iconic for at least 30 years. M being the most iconic performance branding for those years as well. To downplay the weight of the badge is borderline car head heresy. That’s why I don’t think the Tesla/lesser car combo is relevant at all. It’s a true M car vs some budget/boutique drivers options. Which are all smaller and less capable on the track
withsexyresults@reddit
Bruh you might be buying too much into///marketing. Had an e46 m3 comp, it was fine but not as good a sports car like a boxster or Miata. End of day, it’s still compromised being based on a 3 series
myredditalt5@reddit
Boxster is one of the best sports cars ever made though lol and you’d be one of the first people to say the Miata is better than the E46. Even though its comparison would be the Z3/4. Look at how Zs hold value compared to Miata’s….
mocoyne@reddit
I commented on the last thread but it bears repeating. Jason (and whoever else helps write) does a great job of framing his videos, rather than applying a generic review formula. “You’ve already made up your mind” out of the gate calls attention to the elephant in the room and lets the viewer focus on the comparison rather than rooting for their team. Master of his craft imo
cfbillings@reddit
Camissa is probably the best automotive journalist of our time without a doubt.
thekhaos@reddit
If Jason counts in the same timeline as Clarkson, then no he’s not
VisioningHail@reddit
Clarkson never really did car criticism seriously, he was an entertainer first and foremost.
Ok-Response-839@reddit
Clarkson wrote columns before he was on Top Gear. The BBC hired him based on his motoring writing - the director even mentioned part of the reason for hiring Clarkson was his ability to criticise cars in great detail.
VisioningHail@reddit
Yeah fair, I suppose it depends what you consider "our time." I wasn't before modern (2000s) Top Gear
And also the last 25 years of his career has been entertainment with a side of car critique on the newspapers so I feel to most people with a memory shorter than 20 years he is still an entertainer first and foremost
rugbyj@reddit
He literally founded the Motoring Press Association, you're judging him by the tail end of his career. The guy put in solid graft for decades before relying too heavily on the slapstick routine.
rconn1469@reddit
Not a long time ago.
420bIaze@reddit
Clarkson did good work 20 years ago
thekhaos@reddit
I mean CHM’s last special came out this year.
If we’re counting him in the conversation, then Jason is in the lineup behind with Chris Harris
Clarkson is clear
megacookie@reddit
I feel Clarkson is the most entertaining and comedic (though he can be occasionally serious), Harris is the most informative and technical, and Cammisa strikes a blend of both.
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
Yeah, I love Harris, but it's a much smaller niche than Clarkson or Cammisa. Cammisa's work on carmudgeon and now with Hagerty is excellent, as long as you don't mind his loveable goofiness (which is intentional).
420bIaze@reddit
His work moved from primarily automotive journalism to entertainment long long ago.
rbp25@reddit
His writing is still automotive focused is it not?
IAmTurdFerguson@reddit
Probably without a doubt
boachl@reddit
In America? For sure. Rest of the world? Maybe top 3
turboevoluzione@reddit
Cammisa isn't bad either
daver456@reddit
Now if only Randy could act!
newtonreddits@reddit
I like his cringey dad acting.
rssin@reddit
I could be misremembering but I think he went to law school, so the strategic thinking makes sense.
GloriousIncompetence@reddit
The director should get some credit! Anthony Esposito has been working with Jason I think since the motor trend days(?), and they are a fantastic pairing. I was glad to see Hagerty scooped up Jason, and even more thrilled to see they hired BOTH of them. Getting Randy too was icing on the cake.
vveenston@reddit
I wish they did comparison with same tires. I've driven both cars at the track, the pirellis are hot garbage at the limit.
HeWhomeHim@reddit
Yeeesss. Tires make an enormous difference.
imjoeking69@reddit
So does suspension. And brakes. And engine. IMO you can’t swap out any part of a car and still call it an objective test or review of the car. Because it’s not the same car anymore
LazyLancer@reddit
Well, tyres are designed to be changed and people use different tyres on the same model of car. So it’s only fair to make comparisons if two different cars using same kind of tyres.
watduhdamhell@reddit
Na, eff that. The two vehicles should be compared utilizing what is available from the factory and literally nothing else. To do otherwise would make no sense.
LazyLancer@reddit
But here’s the trick. The tyres “from the factory” may differ depending on production year or region, but the car is the same.
watduhdamhell@reddit
Sure. So at the time of the review, in the region they are in, get what is available for the car in that region at that time.
It's really not all that difficult a concept imo.
For example, back when the Samsung Galaxy phones had two different cpus depending on the region, I didn't think "well this comparison is unfair, it doesn't use the superior Samsung processor available in South Korea! It used the Qualcomm we are stuck with!" (Back when this was the case).
You compare products with the equipment they come with, in the configuration available to you in your region. That's the game: comparing products from competing companies as they try to sell you something. It's not "comparing the very best, tweaked, tailored version of the product with aftermarket parts or with parts not even available in the country of the comparison."
LazyLancer@reddit
That is a very weird example. You can change tyres on a car for like 50 EUR in a shop. But you cannot change a cpu in a phone.
watduhdamhell@reddit
Holy shit.
So you are changing the tires. It's is by your own admission no longer the same vehicle. It is not the same car. It has changed. "Upgraded."
It is now no longer valid for any comparison test.
Now please stop replying, I can only talk to brick walls for so long.
LazyLancer@reddit
If you change your wipers, it’s no longer the same car uh-huh. UPGRADED!
lowstrife@reddit
On one hand, you want to test the car as spaced from the factory. As "what tires" is a slippery slope.
On the other hand I completely agree with OP, Pereli makes dogshit tires.
LazyLancer@reddit
Problem is, “as specced from the the factory” might be different depending on region and production year - tyre supplier could get changed, but the car is still the same. It’s totally possible to buy a let’s say Toyota Camry on the same day in different countries and they will be wearing different tyres.
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
This only matters if you're testing vastly different cars (or 17 like, you said). You can put any variety of max performance summers on both of these cars without issue. It's not a slippery slope.
I'm all for "as specced" testing, but when the entire complaint is the tires dying on one, it's an obvious disadvantage when comparing lap times. It doesn't affect the other tests.
Like, if I compared a Mustang GT on PS4S's vs a Camaro SS on Cup2's, even though both come that way "as specced", then it's an unfair comparison for track times. When you factor in replacement costs, wet weather performance, daily driving, etc., the track day tire loses every time.
I think even on the same tire, the M3 wins, and it's certainly more exciting to drive, but they have the resources to put both cars on the same tire (and keep stock dimensions).
newtonreddits@reddit
What if they start using 100TW or slicks? Where do you draw the line?
HeWhomeHim@reddit
Agreed. But this is about making it as close to apples and apples in order to compare engine, brakes, suspension etc. Tires make such an out sized impact on performance that it's different. You can have far less power and wayyy better tires and achieve a better lap time. In my humble opinion these magazine lap times should be about eliminating as many variables as possible. Also, You can't take your car to a shop and swap engine or suspension in an hour. Hence it's about price point. And of course this is all entertainment. Who the hell is taking their Tesla or M3 to the track? Like 1 out of a 100 buyers? Point being tires have an enormous impact on performance and are easily changeable to allow for an assessment of engine , brakes, and suspension in order to facilitate Reddit arguments.
imjoeking69@reddit
You’re not wrong. I just think cars should be tested “as is”. If you want to do additional testing to see how better tires affect the car go at it, but it should be an additional data point
Bensemus@reddit
But “as is” only lasts as long as the factory tires do at most. Then the owner could put anything on. Tires really should be changed.
imjoeking69@reddit
This conversation is just a circle. That shouldn’t matter because I can’t go into the dealership and buy a car with whatever tire I want. If I’m in the market for a new car I am looking at what it comes with now and not what it could have in 30 thousand miles. The owner can put on a new intake when the filter needs to be replaced and get a couple extra ponies too. Doesn’t make it representative of the car from the factory
HeWhomeHim@reddit
For sure. One track time "from the factory" and one "modified."
imjoeking69@reddit
But then it’s not a stock car you can go buy right now. I don’t disagree with you about pirellis though idk why every OEM ships their cars with those POS tires
vveenston@reddit
Yeah but everyone has to change tires at some point, apples to apples for perspective.
imjoeking69@reddit
Having sold tires for many years most people - especially tesla people - throw on the same exact garbage as oem. Yes the savvier buyer will buy better tires but that argument just becomes a slippery slope
Spencie61@reddit
If you care about car performance you care enough to put better tires on. It is not a slippery slope to install better tires
imjoeking69@reddit
But you’re not getting that performance the day you buy the car. That’s what I’m getting at. It’s not a level playing field because now it’s an upgraded car vs a stock car
Spencie61@reddit
I really don’t think that should matter here. Tires aren’t like involved suspension mods or tuning the engine. They’re easy to replace, must eventually be replaced, and are the single greatest bang for buck thing you can do to a car. Rest assured if I were to buy a new car today, the tires would last me the distance from the dealer to the nearest tire shop if the original equipment was unsatisfactory
imjoeking69@reddit
So? That’s an extra expense on top of buying the car. You guys are regurgitating the same thing over and over and glossing over the fact that new tires are an added expense and are not representative of how the car is from day 1
Spencie61@reddit
Maybe the reviews you want to watch/read. Savage Geese does control for tire since partnering with Bridgestone. If a car comes with PS4S and another has some Kumho Ecsta variant, which do you think will look better in a comparison?
Tires give you incredible step changes in road holding and braking. You don’t stop faster from speed with bigger brakes, you do it with better tires. You don’t drive faster around a skidpad with trick dampers, you do it with better tires.
SoloPorUnBeso@reddit
I wouldn't consider testing on equal tires to be modified vs stock. You're putting them on equal ground (heh).
If I tested a tuned Elantra N making 315hp vs a stock CTR, that would be stock vs tuned. Tires are tires. They wear and need to be changed.
Let's go extreme with it. If one car came with full winters, would you find it a fair comparison to one that didn't? Assuming all other things are relatively equal, the results of the test would depend on the conditions.
Bensemus@reddit
It’s not hard to have a set of rims and tires ready to go for the new car.
mocoyne@reddit
I think so too. I get why they did it but not only do people change tires, a lot of oe tires go out of production a few years later so theyre even more irrelevant. You wouldn't put pilot sport PS2s or whatever on your car that came with them in 2012.
Spencie61@reddit
I sure as hell wouldn’t put the Porsche spec tires on my Boxster. Tire tech has come a long way, why would I limit myself to the 2 decade old tires of that time
Straight-Job5413@reddit
Some M3s come with the Michelin P4S, just depends on production times and what they’re running
Not_Daijoubu@reddit
Tangent but I'd love to run some Michelin summers... if they actually cared about sizes smaller than 17 inches.
HighHokie@reddit
Yeah we get that, it’s still be nice to see it on the same rubber.
lee1026@reddit
They need the range rating.
CubanLinxRae@reddit
i feel like you have to roll with whatever the factory rolled it out with. the manufacturer probably thought long and hard about which tires to ship to consumers and especially reviewers
HeWhomeHim@reddit
If it's a video about track times then you have to have the same tires. I've been driving in the snow and saw a Subie get stuck but Vette go right by. No question the Vette had the right tires.
Outrageous_Calendar4@reddit
Off-topic but does anyone know where this was filmed at?? Those mountains look gorgeous and doing a drive over there looks like a lot of fun
saazbaru@reddit
Looks like somewhere in the Eastern Sierra but I couldn’t tell you for sure where.
aspartam@reddit
Willow Springs
Outrageous_Calendar4@reddit
Thanks!
FettesBrot@reddit
Tesla has massively, massively improved. I'm honestly happy to see this.
The BMW M3 is still a great and fun car to drive.
The M3 used to be significantly better than competitors. Today, it's arguably marginally better in specific scenarios that many owners won't ever experience.
BMW will still sell thousands of them likely in record numbers for the time being, but they've lost their unique edge long ago at this point, as sad as it makes me to say.
watduhdamhell@reddit
I mean the ATS-V back in 2014 was without a doubt better dynamically in every way compared to the M3, and that made no dent at all in M3 sales.
It's an established brand at this point and people want it when they want to fast four-door compact luxury car no matter how good anything else is.
And perhaps more importantly it's not that the M3 does anything with an edge and each category over its competitors. Rather, it has always been the best all-rounder. Usually near the top in terms of speed, usually near the top in terms of dynamics, usually near the top in terms of interior, etc. it is never necessarily been the best of any of those things in any one particular generation.
yawetag1869@reddit
Has BMW lost its edge? If you want a 4 door sports sedan with crazy performance that is actually reliable, has great luxury and tech, and a manual transmission, then what are your options? Its literally just BMW and cadillac who make cars like this right now.
portnoyx@reddit
You should see the second to last youtube video from "jayemm on cars", about BEHV and the first Audi RS5.
He made the point that the M3 was always sharper than the competitors (RS4/5, C63), but mostly on track and if driven side by side, which almost no one ever does.
Driven on the street, the gap between M3/RS4/C63 it is a completely different story. Each car has it's merits.
He blames the journalists of the past, which gave us the impression, the M3 being the "non plus ultra" of any car, but only counts on a race track.
gropingpriest@reddit
I found that guy when I was briefly cross-shopping a Miata, S2000, and a Cayman. He went from a Miata to a Cayman or Boxster and did a few reviews about it.
He's very enjoyable
x3nhydr4lutr1sx@reddit
I'd be curious about Tesla M3P vs BMW M3/4 sales numbers. Anecdotally, I see much more M3P's than BMW F/G8x M3/4s in the Bay Area.
FettesBrot@reddit
Tesla Model 3 Performance will outsell the BMW M3 by thousand and thousands. In large part due to price.
CubanLinxRae@reddit
m3’s are so fast, hard to wring it out on the street crazy to think about
Imakeshittycardesign@reddit
Seems like people forgot that the old Model 3 Performance already beat the F80 M3 on a track in a TopGear comparison test. At the time I was sure that the gap between EV and ICE performance cars would only get bigger going forward but now the newest version of the Model 3 Performance is trailing the M3/M4 again. So not sure how this is supposed to be a „big surprise“ type of result. And somehow Tesla managed to introduce thermal issues with the facelift which the old one (different batteries) didn‘t have.
Feels a bit like the Model S Plaid review they did a while back where they tracked it against the M5 CS to prove how accomplished the Plaid S is and how outdated the M5 CS. Now the M5 CS is a modern classic and the Plaid is just whatever. I‘m sure both Teslas are great cars but Cammisa has a tendency to overhype them.
deleted_by_reddit@reddit
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Lordrandall@reddit
If I needed an efficient commuter, I would buy a hybrid or EV for sure (but not a Tesla). Until then, manual only for me.
peaseabee@reddit
If you want fun on normal roads and dominant stoplight to stoplight performance, and you can handle the charging infrastructure, the Tesla seems like a clear winner here.
AlgernusPrime@reddit
If you want an appliance that can go 0-60 with crazy torque, EV is a great choice. If you enjoy driving, get the M3. I have a Model Y Performance, 335i, and a Cayman. The EV is for family + grocery trips. The 335i and Cayman is when I want a fun drive.
demonkeyed@reddit
So the answer is Miata, got it.
penis-tango-man@reddit
Insane production quality, interesting premise, and thoroughly entertaining. Jason and his team continue their master class in automotive journalism!
GoHuskies1984@reddit
Thoroughly entertaining to watch.
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