Help me pick a bottom paint for racing please!
Posted by G-mann1988@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 44 comments
I currently race a S2 7.9 (#391 Wildcat) on canyon lake Texas (quite successfully for our small club). But now i've gotten through most of the major improvements to the boat where the orange peel bottom paint is a limiting factor. My rival (also an S2 7.9, better bottom, better sails) consistently has better boat speed (by about .2 knots) and it kills me. I'm on a "one sail a year" upgrade/replacement plan so please refrain from making those suggestions, I am VERY aware of the benefits and have only a new main to purchase before all sails are less than 2 years old.
The boat is kept on a hydro-hoist or trailer. When on the hoist, only the bottom foot or so of the keel is actually in the water and we are a fresh water lake with minimal risk from zebra muscles accumulating as its VERY easy to knock them off and scrub the keel before racing and i can also raise the centerboard out of the water if i really have a need to. We do have designs to travel to a few bigger fleet regattas (class championship in Racine, Nashville Equalizer, and possibly going back to NOOD's in St. Pete) but these are not the priority. By this reasoning, i'm leaning away from an antifouling paint and more towards a fast, strong, low maintenance bottom paint specifically for racing. I'm perfectly ok with running a "scrubber" along the boat if she's in water for a few days in a regatta away from home.
I'm not sure what paint is currently on the bottom and adhesion is a concern, but i'm not opposed to taking the boat all the way down to gelcoat (mainly to make sure the bottom is faired properly before application)
Please hit me with your suggestions!!!
windoneforme@reddit
If fresh water pretty much all the racers use VC-17. Easy and quick to apply season to season. The trouble is you have to get the bottom down to clean gelcoat before you put it on so the prep for the first time can be a bit intensive.
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
Sounds like I'm almost better leaving the gelcoat then yes?
windoneforme@reddit
Yeah gelcoat stays but getting all the ablative paint off can take a bit of work. Im also not sure but I know they used to have some sort of primer for it but I think they may have changed it. Look it up on the interlux paints website and follow their suggestions.
procentjetwintig@reddit
Coppercoat, three extra layers. Sand and polish.
csdirty@reddit
I usually just wear pants.
Significant_Tie_3994@reddit
There's no kill like overkill. https://www.pettitpaint.com/products/antifouling-bottom-paint/antifouling-speed-coatings/black-widow/
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
Haven't heard of this brand before. Do you have any experience with it or know anyone that does? What's the lifespan and maintenance?
Significant_Tie_3994@reddit
Pettit? It's the standard other marine paints (other than rustoleum, but they went coprorate) hope to achieve
enuct@reddit
idk about standard, that's probably subjective area to area but it's absolutely criminal you listed RUSTOLEUM over Interlux. I'd put totalboat above RUSTOLEUM. Especially for racers vc17 is the absolute standard on freshwater boats.
greatlakesailors@reddit
We've been using VC17m for 5 years and are pretty happy with it. It's super thin and smooth, technically a hard (non ablative) paint but it does wear after a couple of seasons and particularly so if the marina is lax on their dredging.... grr....
It doesn't collect much fouling at the dock, and what little soft algae it does pick up is really easy to brush off with a cloth or soft bristles.
enuct@reddit
Interlux reformulates VC17 every few years, I'm sure come spring you'll be able to find some version of it. They go back and forth with the biolux additive or not depending on new epa restrictions.
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
Vc17 is what I was recommended locally but I always want to get outside and new opinions.
issue9mm@reddit
Pettit Odyssey and Trinidad lines of paints are some of the most popular bottom paints in the world
I put out a bid to three yacht management services for bottom paint quotes, and two of the three recommended Pettit products to me
Guygan@reddit
Black Widow is the best bottom paint, PERIOD. Worth the price.
Significant_Tie_3994@reddit
Antifouling by "try to stick to this"
issue9mm@reddit
Exactly what I was going to mention.
dred124@reddit
VC17 is what we have used. Loved it.
tomato_frappe@reddit
Just be sure to burnish before you splash. We use bronze scrubbers and water after 120 grit wetsanding. If you can see your reflection it's good.
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
How frequently do you have to burnish? Every race?
tomato_frappe@reddit
Just the once after re-spraying the bottom paint. We also race, so the bottom gets scrubbed by a diver regularly. Burnishing and wet sanding is a lot of work in uncomfortable positions, I wouldn't want to do it very often.
melmerby@reddit
Why paint? Just take it all the way down, apply fresh gel coat, wax and let er rip.
gsasquatch@reddit
I use vc-17 in fresh water, I think that's the standard. I only do that because my boat is in the water all the time.
With a hydro hoist, and if you're looking to be competitive in one design, gelcoat is the way.
If it's only in the water a few hours a week like a little power boat then no need for paint. Paint is for if you're in the water all the time.
e.g. Look at the bottom in first picture here:
https://www.sail-world.com/news/280149/J-24-World-Championship-day-3
No bottom paint
LameBMX@reddit
no bottom paint and keep the centerboard up. unless the boats staying in the water, i see very few racing boats with bottom paint, and then it's the vc17.
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
It has been suggested that I take the boat back to gel coat but I don't think that's a viable option. I'm in the market for a paint of some kind.
LameBMX@reddit
curious as to why you feel it's not viable? was it stripped past gelcoat previously?
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
The boat hasn't been faired for years and has a few nicks and dings. Assuming I'm able to take all the current paint down to gel coat without it getting too thin/removing too much. Eventually I'll find a spot that needs to be fillied and then something to go over it. I have enough experience with gel coat to know that applying it smoothly is a challenge. Hence thinking that applying a protective paint of some kind will be easier.
LameBMX@reddit
I thought that was the advantage to soda blasting, when done right it's between gelcoat hardness and the coatings hardness. so the coatings go away and the gelcoat is left undamaged.
still leaves the nicks to fill, and I agree, sanding gelcoat smooth is a pain. I gave up on the gelcoat spots I did on the tender lol. but the bulk of the hull should be smooth as the mold it came out of if the gelcoat is good. and given s2's rep, id expect it to be smooth.
maybe slap another layer of bottom paint for a year, hop on yachtscoring.com and make some road trips to big races and see what they have going on.
no matter what, it's gonna be a lot of work that I wouldn't want to repeat in a few years.
jpttpj@reddit
So, curious. Coming from the old SORC days back in 80’s. We mostly used petit 44 then wet sanded it, mixed baby powder to the paint, filled pin holes and wet sand again, over and over…. As a “matte” finish was beloved to be faster that a shiny finish of any kind. The theory being water beading off the surface created friction and matte finish created a smooth layer to flow by. Is this still the case? I’ve obviously been away a long time
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
I think I've read all the same articles about the "shark skin" paint from the Americas cup same as anyone. Is one better than the other? I dunno. I think a physicist that specializes in fluid dynamics would have to answer that one. I can say with certainly that a faired and boarded hull with a smooth (non orange peel) finish is the place to start. Likely I'll end up with a very smooth wet sanded finish. After that, I'm unsure what's marketing hype and all...
Sunfishdiver@reddit
Have you faired the bottom, and longboard it all out ? You may find it’s the shape over the product as it’s not having to do a lot of anti-fouling.
Also, is this a project you’re doing yourself or is a marine yard doing it for you? What’s your tolerance for doing the job? Are you roll and tipping or spraying?
Black widow can be amazing but the effort to get it there is significantly higher than VC17.
From your Great Lakes S2 9.1 sailor 🙂⛵️
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
All good questions. No the bottom is not faired but it will be and definitely going to longboard and all that. I'll be doing the work with other friends. I can roller tip reasonably well but I'm going to get a friend to do the spraying (or I'll just figure it out)
What am I missing about the black widow vs vc17 as far as application and maintenance?
Sunfishdiver@reddit
We took the bottom to gel coat and faired it and did the whole thing with new barrier coat and infinite sanding. We applied Black Widow and it was just extremely difficult to get to a nice finish. We kept getting orange peel, over and over and over. We waisted sooo much time and money. IMHO that stuff must be sprayed it’s hard AF to roll and tipping and get the desired flow out of the paint. We left the Black Widow on for only like 1 season and switched right back to VC17. But after fixing up the bottom boy did we see a net gain in speed! 😃
We are going to try one more time this year to back to Black Widow cause it’s all the craze but we’re buying a sprayer to do it.
We also templated our keel (maybe not a concern for a centerboarder)but we found the keel was significantly misshapen on one side.
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
Templating the keel (and rudder) are definitely on my mind if I can find the templates. Since both tend to develop crack and get waterlogged, I'll be pulling the out altogether during this process to try and dry them out and seal them up. Thanks for the insight on black widow!
Charles_W_Morgan@reddit
Sounds like you don’t need anti fouling paint. Get rid of everything that’s there. 24 grit. Pick a 2 part paint and follow the manufacturers instructions including barrier coat / other prep. If you do not want to take on spraying, you can get mirror smooth results rolling and tipping then wet sanding and polishing.
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
I'm thinking that the bottom prep will probably require going down to gel coat. By two part pain what do you mean? (I'm a bit overwhelmed by the options) Is that a two part hard epoxy paint? Barrier coat? Have a recommendation?
overthehillhat@reddit
Enth degree focus on weight--
for example:
Boeing 747: Requires about 120 gallons of paint, which weighs around 1,200 lbs (544 kg)
Don't add any weight---
Do subtract anything you can think of
permalink_child@reddit
Baby oil.
enuct@reddit
VC17 is the standard, SR21 from petit is also common and westmarine has a copy of both as well. But as said BlackWidow is becoming more popular but it's going to require a lot of effort to get it comparable to VC17 as you have to burnish it to that smooth finish. Also hope to see you at the 7.9 events, we have a huge 7.9 fleet here in louisville (Fleet 13)
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
I'm thinking that the maintenance requirement may be an impediment if frequent burnishing is required.
enuct@reddit
I don't believe it's frequent, just after you paint. vc is and a barrier of 2000e will be a lot less effort.
jaxn@reddit
At least one of the fast S2s here (Nashville) use VC17. That’s what I have on my J22 and I’m happy with it.
I wouldn’t put Black Widow on if your hoist is the inflatable bags. If it is like trailer bunks it might be fine, but that stuff rubs off on everything it touches when it’s wet.
And yes, come to Equalizer.
G-mann1988@reddit (OP)
Thanks! Vc17 is what I've heard gets used a lot in the S2 crowd but always appreciate new ideas. I've been to Nashville twice as crew and had a blast each time, but I want to be sure my boat is at least nominally fast enough to compete before shouldering the time and expense to start traveling.
The trailer and hoist have bunks and I'm trying to avoid ablative paints for that reason in addition to not REALLY needing antifouling.
jaxn@reddit
I’m in a similar boat. Not heading your way for j22 midwinters this year, but hopefully we will be ready for bigger regattas in the fall.
TriXandApple@reddit
That other stuff looks like it's made for powerboats. If your boat is out of the water, why do you need antifoil? If it were me I'd just go for what everyone else uses: nautix a4 t speed. If you're chasing .2 of a knot, you can polish it back to almost a glass finish and it's quick as hell.
Also, it's not a hard antifoul, which is in my opinion, supior.