Why should I use a soft shackle instead of a bowline for sheets
Posted by pembquist@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 70 comments
I sail on a 30' San Juan in pretty casual racing. Had a new crew for a race who was a bit barky, liked to tell people what to do. He seemed appalled that we didn't have soft shackles for our asym lines. I don't really get it. I use them in some places on my own boat but I feel like I can tie and untie a bowline faster than I can open and close a soft shackle and there is just less stuff to mess with.
Am I crazy?
phil_hoskint@reddit
Easier during sail changes, less likely to snag on something during tacks and gybes. Tylaskers are the quickest for sail changes but, as someone else said here, prone to damaging heads of crew members.
Teknos3@reddit
Back in the 1970’s Dad had stainless steel shackles on all the forward sheets.
santaroga_barrier@reddit
for having two captains on the crew, yes- that's crazy
get_MEAN_yall@reddit
With a soft shackle spliced directly into the 12 strand dyneema core of the sheet there is no lump to hang up on the forestay. It's marginally better than a bowline but really not a huge difference.
AshamedTax8008@reddit
True. But some people think one second matters in handicap racing. Which it does, but hey, it’s a beer can, let it go.
I would think any kind of shackle (or no shackle!) is better than a bowline though. No offense OP, but you really should upgrade your sheets. Especially on an asym, it’s a top flight win or lose sail, we owners spend a lot of money on those and their halyards, you should drop some coin on a light weight sheet. We use one long length and attach to the clew at the center with 1’ whip with and eye splice at one end and a soft shackle at the other. We can use this sheet on other asym sails, code zeros etc as needed.
maldovix@reddit
metal shackle is a great way to send your foredeck guy overboard with a split head
boatslut@reddit
After 40years on the bow ... J-locks (metal shackles) are the least of my worries.
AshamedTax8008@reddit
I don’t understand the down votes? No metal shackle here at all. Just splices. One long sheet and a whip of the same material at center. That’s pretty standard here.
ExtraTallBoy@reddit
I think the down votes are because your comment reads like every reply on SA. I think much of the conversation here is more geared towards cruising and beginners (my observation). Plus it goes against the narrative of OP not needing to change anything.
No disagreement from me though. I need to make a set of sheets like this. There's just a lot of other items on my work list that come first.
Also, it's pretty intimidating to a lot of people to learn how to splice for some reason. No idea why, but when I show people stuff I've made on my my boat they are always blown away that it's possible to do as a non-pro. Great way to save a few bucks though.
AshamedTax8008@reddit
Understood. Thank you!
thebarold@reddit
To me this attitude is what is killing racing.
thereasonrumisgone@reddit
I laughed hard when I came across the victor's rum going for 12$ at specs. Doesn't taste as good when it's bought instead of earned, but the stormies were still dark.
light24bulbs@reddit
I refuse to have any more unsheathed lines at the masthead. Not sure if you're implying an unsheathed line. The sun is a killer.
get_MEAN_yall@reddit
Spinnaker sheets are typically stored after use.
light24bulbs@reddit
Oh, I missed the spinnaker part
Playful_Pen_9055@reddit
You can also taper just the middle of the line (ie have a foot or 2 of cover on the end) then use a sacrificial line when at the dock
light24bulbs@reddit
I'm having trouble picturing this one but that's ok
Playful_Pen_9055@reddit
I mean you basically sky your halyards with a retrieval string. The cover on the end is usually a dyneema chafe cover to protect the lines from chafe as it exits the mast as you sail.
light24bulbs@reddit
Oh. Take the sails off AND sky the halyards. I don't do either of those on my boat but I guess with a different setup it would make sense. Thanks!
chadv8r@reddit
How to tell if someone is from down south without them telling. Skying halyards 😅 (most likely California or TX ) am i right?
light24bulbs@reddit
Beats me it's just what they said above. We do say that on the west coast
pembquist@reddit (OP)
I will have to remember that if we get new sheets, right now we live in the land of Sta-set!
chadv8r@reddit
Honestly should only take an afternoon and cheap knitting needles, maker, and pliers to either splice a loop or make some built in soft shackles. Once you make one or two you start finding more uses.
Beelzabub@reddit
And easier on the teeth of the foredeck crew
GeoffSobering@reddit
The only reason I can think of is if the load is near the limit of the sheet-line. Then, the 50% loss of strength in the knot would be significant.
For an asym sheet on most boats, this probably isn't an issue.
Elder_sender@reddit
Nope, you’re just good at knots and not overly susceptible to marketing pressure.
Guygan@reddit
Yup.
Soft shackles are the Flavor of the Week for racing boats.
wkavinsky@reddit
Flavour of the week, yes, but also, a great leveller - OP is great at bowlines and knots, but that level of knowledge isn't the same in all people.
Bob_Lablah_esq@reddit
Agreed, Soft Shackles are the flavor of the week but, competency in the usage of coupled with a wisdom of using marlinspike is more than invaluable in the sailing world.
Proper knowledge of marlinspike and proper execution there of is more than just smoother transit while casual sailing, more than a fast time around the northern/windward mark, more than securing your ground tackle and traps, it very possibly will save your life or a crew mates life and I guarentee at some point it will save you and others from an unnecessary injury.
IanSan5653@reddit
I personally like to have the ends of my sheets as spliced loops, then a soft shackle to the clew. This eliminates knots that can catch on the forestay and shrouds, plus reduces weight that can pull the sail down in light air (only really makes a difference if your sheets are already lightweight).
But I am obsessed with rigging. I would never judge anyone for just doing bowlines. They're significantly easier, cheaper, more foolproof. Plus, if you don't have problems with sheets catching, why solve them?
Llee00@reddit
but when properly tacked each time, why would knots on the clew catch on the forestay?
IanSan5653@reddit
It's honestly more likely the shrouds than the forestay. Doesn't happen on every boat but the chances are definitely higher with larger genoas.
u399566@reddit
The only place where we had sheets ending in soft shackles were the jib sheets of a TP52 I was sailing on. Given that this jib is relatively large, hence has significant pull on the sheet I feel the shackles were simply easier to open that bowlines which might have tightened up easily.
But yes, this seems to be a rather niche application. Nothing wrong with bowlines, though, your mate was being a smartass, I guess..
miahmouse@reddit
No t-rings?
Pretend_College_8446@reddit
Keep the bowlines, jettison that crew member. You said it was casual racing, people like that ruin the fun time for everyone
ovideos@reddit
Honest question: Doesn't the soft-shackle create a possibility of it breaking due to chafing and losing both sheets at once? For race-day that's not an issue, but I mean if you're cruising across an ocean or something.
And no love on here for using a single line for both sheets, just cow-hitching it at the clew?
Dfiala@reddit
I find that soft shackles reduce how much my sheets snag on things. Unless you're having a problem with this there is absolutely no difference.
n0exit@reddit
I have a 150% Genoa, and I set up my sheets to attach via bowlines when I first got the boat. They tend to get caught on the shrouds, so at some point I will re-do them. Splicing a loop into the sheets and attaching them via soft shackle is an option, but I'll probably just wait until they need to be replaced and use a single sheet with a cows hitch because that's even simpler and low profile.
Sounds like you allowed foredeck into the cockpit. Keep them on the rail where they belong. /s
TheFluffiestRedditor@reddit
Sounds like that deckhand could do with a promotion to rail meat.
LameBMX@reddit
I did the cows hitch on my SC, it was nice. the bowlines liked the shrouds. the ericson i havent had much for hangups under normal circumstances with bowlines.
iy803@reddit
Hey you can't talk to the foredeck like that! We're in a union, man! I'm filing a grievance with my local F.U. 69!
petesabagel86@reddit
3 reasons why I prefer a splice and soft shackle
Genoa sheets get past the shroud much easier.
your bowman won’t take two bowlines to the face if the sail is flogging.
Looks cool.
RoostersoftheSea@reddit
I use buntline hitches (which is basically just tying a line to itself with a clove hitch; it’s also a four-in-hand necktie knot). They’re easy to tie, work themselves tighter, and rest right against the clew so they tend to get caught less than a bowline.
oldgrayfox00@reddit
I haven’t raced for some years, but the major advantages of a bowline are strong, lightweight, and untieable . And if you have a second the bight(loop) in the bowline can be tied right snug to the clew.
RoostersoftheSea@reddit
I think the buntline hitch basically has all of those advantages although it can be a little bit harder to untie after being under a lot of strain. But there’s one bigger advantage with the knot being so close against the clew: the sail tends to get caught less on the stay and if it’s on a spinnaker the pole can get even closer to the clew.
kjc-01@reddit
I don't wear a tie very often anymore, so have to think about it when tying. This is going to eliminate that pregnant pause in front of the mirror where I think "How do I do this again?"
RoostersoftheSea@reddit
Hah! Well if you ever find yourself having to wear a bow tie, just remember that it’s only a square knot that’s slippable on both ends. A little harder when it’s around your own neck, but we’ve actually all know how to tie a bow tie this whole time!
Efficient_Waltz_8023@reddit
Who is the captain on this boat? Because the captain is always right.......
pembquist@reddit (OP)
I don't think the captain knows what a soft shackle is exactly but she decided to drop the barker from the rotation. I'd have kept him in but would have told him to moderate, contributions always welcome but it isn't a democracy and he isn't the dictator:)
vaneynde@reddit
Good move
nspectra@reddit
They help me when I’m racing. They don’t hang up nearly as much. I make my own so cost isn’t an issue. In our club regatta last weekend, it was blowing a little too hard for my symmetrical spinnaker and when I tried to jib the pole the spin back-rapped around the forstay. Had to cut the soft shackle off. Still able to get second in that race. And didn’t need cut my expensive spin-sheets. I for one love soft shackles.
PossiblyBefuddled@reddit
Bowlines are great, but in addition to getting caught on the shrouds, they can also come undone when not under load.
FarAwaySailor@reddit
our genoa sheets are 14mm polyester. Bowlines are heavy and painful/dangerous when flapping. They also get caught on rigging frequently. I spliced 3m of dyneema to the end of each sheet, so they'd slide through the jaws of the pole easier. I put an eye in the end of each and attach them to the clew with soft shackles. I'm not sure how well a bowline would hold in those dyneema tails.
Overall I'm really happy with this solution - much better for us than massive heavy knots. But then, we're not racing...
pembquist@reddit (OP)
That's interesting, what kind of splice is that between (I'm assuming) double braid and the dyneema? And here is an example of using a bowline in dyneema: https://youtu.be/rAVlg3vBvk0?si=TZsPSDRLuA9Qh2um
FarAwaySailor@reddit
caeru1ean@reddit
No you’re not crazy.
I sail and live on a 44’ cruising mono from 1985. The cockpit winches are huge and our 1/2” sheets were slipping in the self tailer, so I bought some lightly used 9/16” sheets from a 45’ cat, was able to still splice an eye in one end and use a soft shackle. If I had used bowline they would have been the size of soft balls and gotten hung up on the stays.
danielt1263@reddit
Eh... My boat is only 15'. I use a figure eight.
tenuki_@reddit
Wrong subreddit. You want r/hestheasshole.
tomato_frappe@reddit
Had a bowperson accidentally tie a bowline backwards on our code zero, it was pretty sporty breeze and wave state. Six hours later we needed to drop the sail, but the bowline had set so tightly we had to cut it off. Never had a similar problem with soft shackles.
Thats_a_goodbandname@reddit
You're looking at roughly $350 to replace the sheets and another \~$30 for a length of dyneema or Amsteel to make the soft shackles plus a couple hours time if you have the splicing tools. When I did mine (Cal 2-30, Jeanneau 39i) there was a lot less friction on the shrouds and it looked super cool, but some of the newbies didn't understand them. So, if your sheets are old, replace them. If not, replace the talker.
2airishuman@reddit
I don't race. For jibsheets I use XL3 with spliced eyes and use three turns of a small-diameter long-length soft shackle to attach them to the clew. I find that this is less likely to hang up on stuff than a pair of bowlines. I used bowlines before and they were less faffing around but they got caught on the dinghy and the chainplates. I'm always shorthanded so this sort of thing is a major consideration for me.
Nearby-Writer-9205@reddit
My preferences as a racer:
These points scale the larger the boat and the more racey the boat is
ButterscotchNo7232@reddit
I use soft shackles on my roller furler genoa because bowlines get caught up on the stays when tacking. I wouldn't use on a spinnaker unless for some reason you have a problem with the bulk of the knots.
GloveOpposite8398@reddit
I assume you hoist from hatch and has a bowsprit. Knots get hung up easily. Also, in the event a dowse goes wrong, lines get crossed - sometimes a bow guy/gal quickly undo soft shackles instead of rerunning sheets to the stern. Don’t knock a good bow crew. Sound like an opportunity to optimize.
blownout2657@reddit
If the sheets are not getting hung up on your shrouds when you rack you do not need them.
No_Brick_6963@reddit
Sailing for 50+ years and have always deferred to the “tried and true”. Anybody talks about replacing a bowline with anything throw them overboard.
futurebigconcept@reddit
Tying a bowline is absolutely faster than messing with a soft shackle. Of course, that's not the only consideration.
JaseTheAce@reddit
I’ve raced with plenty of these barky types.
Usually they’ve heard the opinion somewhere else and repeat it to make them seem more experienced.
In these situations I just say “oh, why”?
Half the time they realize they now need an answer for a second hand opinion, the other half they have a real reason and you just learned something!
fergehtabodit@reddit
" because that's what the use on" as if that's all that matters...not that the driver has been sailing the same piece of water since he was 6 and the main trimmer has done America's Cup racing
madworld@reddit
I moved from a splice and a soft shackle to a bowline because the splice bulge jams up in the whisker pole. They each have their benefits.