Where does the South Start & End?
Posted by RandomRon005@reddit | AskAnAmerican | View on Reddit | 363 comments
So I moved from VA (Not NOVA) to PA a few years ago. When I tell people here that I moved from VA, they say they don't consider it The South & the first thing that comes to mind to them was DC (Not even Richmond).
The way I've always seen it, unless something had changed in the last few years I left, was the Grey Areas of Stafford, Fredericksburg & Spotsylvania, while anything south of that was considered the start of the South.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Here's a pretty easy checklist to know if you're in the South or not:
1: Are you below the Mason-Dixon Line?
2: Was your state a slave-holding state during the American Civil War?
3: Is there a Waffle House anywhere in your state?
4: Can you get sweet tea at Applebee's?
If the answer to all four of those is "yes," then you're in the South, much to the chagrin of most Marylanders.
Wood_floors_are_wood@reddit
Ok what about Oklahoma then?
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
They weren't even a state during the civil war, so no. They're considered Midwest, although southern Oklahoma would beg to differ. We can compromise on that one and call them Southern Midwest.
Wood_floors_are_wood@reddit
But the Indian tribes in Oklahoma had slaves and fought with the confederacy.
But, as an Okie. We’re not Midwest. I’d take Southwest before midwest
Agent__Zigzag@reddit
I always figured Southwest was NV, AZ, & NM. Maybe even El Paso. Never Oklahoma.
Wood_floors_are_wood@reddit
Western Oklahoma is pretty southwestern in some aspects.
My point however is that Oklahoma isn’t the Midwest at all. We have more in common with New Mexico than Michigan in my opinion
Agent__Zigzag@reddit
I’ve always personally considered Oklahoma as part of the South like Florida & Texas. All 3 have asterisks that make them sort of different from an Alabama, Mississippi, etc.
Wood_floors_are_wood@reddit
Yeah, definitely not southern like Mississippi lol
Your_Worship@reddit
If Arkansas & Missouri are considered southern, then I don’t think Oklahoma is a stretch.
But then again, many don’t consider Texas southern either. Being from Texas, but having lived in 4 other Dixie states I’d have to agree that Texas is kind of its own thing.
TigerDude33@reddit
think they are the south.
proscriptus@reddit
From up here in Northern New England, we would all consider Maryland 100% in the south, and we're not so sure about Delaware and Southern Pennsylvania. Southern New Jersey's looking awfully Chesapeakey, too.
whiskeyworshiper@reddit
If Philly isn’t a Northern city, I don’t know what to tell you. Understand you’re from Vermont so that skews your perspective just as mine is skewed being from South Jersey.
proscriptus@reddit
Nah, Philly gets a pass. It's like a twin to Boston. I'm talking down where you get to be a few miles from Wheeling or Morgantown. You know, Pennsyltucky.
whiskeyworshiper@reddit
South Jersey is a bit different than ‘Chesapeaky’ too. Maybe down by the Delaware Bay where there was once a thriving ‘Baymen’ culture centered around fishing and oystering that is true; but most of people in South Jersey are clustered within 20 miles of the Delaware River around Philadelphia in Burlington, Camden, and Gloucester Counties. These places are much more ‘Northeastern’ in nature.
That being said, just listening to the accents - a person from Philly (or South Jersey or Northern Delaware) sounds more like a Baltimorean than a New Yorker, so I understand why the Delaware Valley gets lumped in with the Mid-Atlantic versus the rest of Northeast.
My view is the Mid-Atlantic is kind of like Appalachia in that it’s split across the greater regions of the Northeast and the South.
RegressToTheMean@reddit
I don't know. I'm a Rutgers alumnus and married a woman from the Pine Barrens. It might be close to Philly from a distance perspective, but culturally it's very, very far apart.
I remember the first time I drove to her house from Massachusetts and when I finally got there I asked, "Where the fuck do you live?! I played count the Confederate flags on the way here" (this was about 25 years ago before the racists got more bold)
whiskeyworshiper@reddit
Check out Chester & Bucks County PA and count the confederate flags. The exurbs of Philly (and Baltimore and NY) have plenty of racist people flying confederate flags.
Redbubble89@reddit
Disagree.
I have grown up here and it's not the south despite all those answers being yes. I've never been to a Waffle house because the land is too expensive and it's too far north but I have seen some on the interstate in other parts.
Virginia is like 4 different state and the DMV or NOVA is not the South.
ilBrunissimo@reddit
I live in NoVA but am originally from NY.
NoVA is definitely the South.
Alexandria feels very Southern.
Is NoVA southern like Charlottesville or Richmond? Not in the same way.
But it definitely isn’t northern like Baltimore or Philadelphia.
Redbubble89@reddit
Because you're originally from NY. Alexandria isn't south.
ilBrunissimo@reddit
It’s got old plantation houses and the Whole Foods is across from the slave market. And up until not too long ago, Us 1 was called the Jefferson Davis Hwy.
It has one HS because of forced integration, similar to the checkerboard of Section 8 housing.
Old Town feels like Charleston. Chirilagua feels like Chirilagua.
True, it isn’t Southern in the same way as Jackson or Birmingham. The constantly rotating military and government (contractor) population have an influence.
But, absolutely none of it feels like the North.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Disagree all you want, but Virginia was a former Confederate State, for Christ's sake. You can't get any more "in the south" than that.
softkittylover@reddit
Not just any confederate state, it held the capital of the confederacy.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Exactly. I get that a some people don't feel culturally connected to "the south" in Northern Virginia, but a hell of a lot of other people in Northern Virginia do. It's easy to find yourself in a cultural bubble in NOVA. Pennsylvania has a similar problem, where most of the state refers to Philly as "The Peoples Republic of Philadelphia," and a surprising amount of California is actually deep conservative country.
brookish@reddit
Californian here and by area, CA is overwhelmingly a red state. Hell, the northern part regularly tries to secede in order to form a confederacy-like state of its own. Thank god for my little coastal blue dot and the capital.
XelaNiba@reddit
God yes.
I'm originally from Kansas and had family out in Redding whom I did not meet until my teens. I expected to feel like an uncouth country bumpkin next to my California cousins.
I was gobsmacked to find that they were incurious hillbillies. They weren't stupid people, just uninterested people. My sisters and I were worldly sophisticates by comparison.
brookish@reddit
This is exactly it! The nature of red state-type people isn’t a considered set of conservative values, it’s an utter lack of curiosity!
4myreditacount@reddit
Cultural connection is what it is though. Like for example, southern Florida is more geographically "the south", but most people consider only northern Florida a part of the south, or they consider none of Florida the south. So now it's completely definitional. Which imo, very silly. And it's odd, because for example I grew up in charleston, which when I grew up there it still sorta felt like the old south, but I grew up without an accent, I grew up among people who had just recently moved there, and the city as I grew up became a lot more regular american the more I grew up. My grandmom still makes the sweetest ice tea you've ever tasted, we still make boiled peanuts, and my family is still relatively religious, but things around them are starting to change. Intermarriage with the north (and I don't mean that derogatorily, but i do think its got a huge part to play in cultural dilution), the internet making "cities" feel very similar, the people that used to live in the city being pushed out by high rent prices in favor of people escaping the cold lands of the north. I really think what's southern is defined very loosely as "what southerners remember the south to be" so northern Virginia, near DC, does not have many traces of the south left regardless of its history as the state of Robert e Lee, the state that housed the capital of the confederacy. I think that what is the south is ascribed to southerners is a process of erasure. Maybe not on purpose, but culturally it feels like northerners want to live in the south, without having to live with the south. And they are honestly succeeding in that goal. There are no longer southern cities. Charlotte is not distinguished by the fact that it is in the south. Atlanta is not distinguished by its southern roots. Texas may have some of that left, but Texas has always been southern adjacent anyways. Some say this is a good thing, I think we are going to lose a lot.
Jdevers77@reddit
That one is a little different though because south Florida was all but uninhabited during the civil way. A couple forts and outposts but that’s about it. Miami became what it is now well after that time and a big bulk of the people from the get go just aren’t even from Florida or the South.
4myreditacount@reddit
I dont see how that's that impactful. I'm not trying to separate the south from what culturally it was during the Civil War. I'm saying it does matter if it "feels" like the south. As in, Miami doesn't feel like the south in the same way that north Virginia doesnt feel like the north. That's kind of exactly what I mean. Geography be damned.
tee2green@reddit
The location wasn’t chosen for cultural reasons; they wanted the capital to be as far North as possible for strategic geographical reasons.
Interesting-Fish6065@reddit
Isn’t what’s known today as the “Confederate” flag actually the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?
softkittylover@reddit
Exactly so!
https://www.nps.gov/anti/learn/historyculture/flags.htm#:~:text=The%20Confederate%20Battle%20Flag%20–%20a,carried%20by%20Confederates%20at%20Antietam.
yesIknowthenavybases@reddit
I’ve got some in laws that live in SW VA. Calling their town a “former sundown town” would be downplaying it.
They’re real nice folk, as long as you’re Baptist, straight and white.
UnfairHoneydew6690@reddit
So? You can get racist old hicks in any backwards little town anywhere in the country. That doesn’t make them southern.
creamcandy@reddit
Y'all don't have Waffle House??
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
25 states don't have a Waffle House.
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
People in Indiana are absolutely shook while reading this list. Won't stop them from flying a Confederate flag, though.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Two things that piss people off, Marylanders being told they're in the South and Indianans being told they're in the Midwest.
JThereseD@reddit
I grew up going to my parents’ vacation place in Maryland and moved there as an adult. I definitely consider it to be the South as do the people I know.
Gilamunsta@reddit
Technically Maryland is in the South as the Mason-Dixon line runs along the MD/PA border, and it was a slave-holding state, but it didn't secede from the Union during the war.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Never said a word about secession.
TigerDude33@reddit
no it's Missouri that gets spun up.
arcinva@reddit
Well, Missouri was half south. It had competing governments, which was an issue with all of the border states, I think.
Though, to my East coast self, I think of Missouri as Midwest in modern day.
steveofthejungle@reddit
Proud Midwestern Hoosier here. We’re not the south, and never were the south.
goodsam2@reddit
Indiana has a separate lineage from people from Kentucky IIRC. Other states people came from more northern states.
Rocket1575@reddit
Michigander here. You're South of me......lol
Ibn-Rushd@reddit
I'd welcome it. Not that I even believe that the state is southern but because I get so tired of random redditors who drove through once on i-95 or who have never left Montgomery telling me the southern culture *I grew up in as a 15th generation Marylander* can't conceivably exist anywhere in the state.
Like I get that rural Maryland is a minor slice of the population but it would just be refreshing to not have to argue I exist for once.
Zaidswith@reddit
I'd tell you you're not, but that's just because I'm from Georgia and live in Alabama. I give anyone a hard time about being southern if they aren't from the Deep South when I venture out.
3mptyspaces@reddit
Sorry homie. You’re probably a good driver, too, and tired of hearing about the DC-suburb MD drivers who all suck.
WingedLady@reddit
*Hoosiers
And most people I know from Indiana are well aware they're midwesterners.
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
Chuck County entered the chat.
Secret_Number_420@reddit
that's racist, not Southern
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
"It's muh Southern (Indiana) heritage!"
Secret_Number_420@reddit
it's racist wherever you plant it
mysecondaccountanon@reddit
Same with Pennsyltucky people. Every time I see a Confederate flag flying up here, I’m like we’re not even the south, we weren’t in the Confederacy, you can’t make that phony “heritage” claim even, like we were solid Union.
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
I see more Confederate flags in Indiana than I did in Virginia. But TBF, I lived outside of DC.
RedRatedRat@reddit
They may be mostly conservative, but Indiana is absolutely not the South.
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
I think you missed the point.
Kellosian@reddit
Albertans are in absolute shambles realizing that they're actually Canadians and don't border Alabama
SeawolfEmeralds@reddit
Its strange comparison and length of time.
When they reference did your state own slaves or something along those lines that's a big indicator on what their intention is, to equate a group of people with slavery.
The South had no major city other than New Orleans the term send it down river is a direct reference to the North sending their shit tier slaves down river most would consider factories of the North today's modern day slave plantations. look at where the child labor and illegal immigrant violations are found today. Factories
Most people today are active participants of slave labor simply ask look at their hand did they get that telephone from the telephone factory around the corner where they make the telephones or
SeawolfEmeralds@reddit
The South are the border states.
Above is Midwest heartland
Between is Angus beef.
Then California and Colorado
Then rail freight mining
Then snow.
Then America light
East is pharmaceutical opioid
West is silicon valley tech grift homless
enstillhet@reddit
Isn't Indiana where the Klan is headquartered these days?
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
I don't know about now but it was the birthplace of the 2nd Klan, or something like that. There were definitely sundown towns not too long ago. A black friend recently told me there are towns here that she still won't drive through. I'm not from Indiana so this is all wild to me.
enstillhet@reddit
Interesting, I thought I read something about that a few years ago but a quick Google search isn't showing much. Either way, that Google search did find that in Goshen today residents awoke to KKK flyers all over the place. So there's that. Sigh.
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
Yeah, that's been happening the last few months around the state. Though the Klan on the flyers seems to be out of Kentucky. At least the flyers I've seen.
arcinva@reddit
I am a Virginian through and through and I've never seen a list so perfect and succinct. 😂
I'd add one thing, too: Though is isn't "the South", you have to remember that the Appalachians extend up into western PA and that area plus southeast OH, WV, and KY have a very southern feel even if they aren't technically part of the South.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
WV and KY both meet the requirements of this list. Ohio doesn't, and frankly is more Midwestern in feel than anything else.
arcinva@reddit
I have a friend from southeastern OH originally and they always jokingly call it northern KY.
ikonet@reddit
The inverse of # 4 is the big one for me. If you have to specify “un-sweet” tea to get a plain iced tea, you’re in the South.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
That's when you're in the Deep South, yeah.
Then you've got my favorite parts of the South, where there's boiled peanuts at the gas station.
Gullible-Display-116@reddit
I live in Virginia and I've never had anyone ask me "sweet or unsweet" when I ordered an iced tea.
RegressToTheMean@reddit
I've been in Maryland for about 16 years and my wife and I are transplants (Jersey and Massachusetts respectively) and neither of us can stomach sweet tea.
The amount of times we get sweet tea when one of us orders iced tea is too damn high
Appropriate-Date6407@reddit
Pronounced “bowl’d”
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
That's more of a Texas pronunciation.
RhubarbGoldberg@reddit
I fucking love gas station and roadside boiled peanuts. God knows what I've actually consumed, but idgaf.
Iamonly@reddit
Had a sales lady ask about boiled peanuts (she was not from the south) and she wanted to know where to get good ones. My response was to drive north on this highway to the 4 way stop and buy some from the old black guy on the left.
She looked at me like I had three heads. I told this story to my wife, who is black, and my wife just said "but you told her the truth".
Gatorae@reddit
Having lived and traveled throughout the South I also fail to see anything at all odd about your directions.
Jdevers77@reddit
None at all. It is all but identical to the answer for the question “Where can I get good tamales around here?” just in a different part of the country. If tamales don’t come from a cooler stored in the back of a truck they just aren’t going to be that good. If BBQ doesn’t come from a place that may or may not be a crack house, probably not that good. If boiled peanuts come from a big corporate gas station on the highway, probably not that good.
eugenesbluegenes@reddit
Am from California, had that exact thought about tamales.
CrowSucker@reddit
5 Does your biscuit taste great.
Aura_Sing@reddit
Not true. \^5 year old southerner. Tea always came unsweetened with big sugar shakers on the table and packets of sweetener. This "sweet tea is the default in the South" is relatively new. I know very, very few people that make sweet tea at all and let people do whatever they want to the regular tea they provide.
Golbez89@reddit
That really does seem like a simpler way of doing things.
3mptyspaces@reddit
…which s how they do it up north. You want something other than straight tea, here’s what you need & you do it.
Golbez89@reddit
I'm on the IL/MO border so so kinda on the line between unsweet and sweet tea lands. Pretty much everyone I know has a preference and sweetening it yourself seems so much easier and honestly smarter. I've had some that's so sweet I can't drink it.
3mptyspaces@reddit
Yeah, I like 2/3 unsweet tea and 1/3 lemonade. That’s about as sweet as I can stand.
shepard1001@reddit
But that's not really what southerners call "sweet tea". Sweet tea has to have the sugar inserted while the tea is boiling to supersaturate it.
Aura_Sing@reddit
Exactly - I'm saying it was not much of a thing - you never saw it in a restaurant and only very occasionally at someone's house
MCRN-Tachi158@reddit
My first time in DC I ordered an ice tea. Waitress said I probably wanted unsweetened ice tea. I said yeah. She said my California accent gave it away.
I’ve never tasted sweet tea, even to this day. So I didn’t know it was a thing
Turdulator@reddit
I’m an unsweetened guy too.
Sweet tea is good, but I never drink it because you can feel the diabetes coursing through your soul as you swallow it.
arcinva@reddit
It really depends on who makes it. If I get a sweet tea from McDonald's, it tastes like tea-flavored syrup. blech I guess my grandmother and mom just never made it quite as sweet as some people do.
Delicious_Oil9902@reddit
Delaware answers yes to all these too
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Yep, and Delaware still held slaves after the American Civil War ended. Juneteenth only celebrates the slavery that ended in the former Confederate States. Delaware didn't give up its slaves until the 13th Amendment was ratified.
It's a bit of a sore point for some of the people living there.
Delicious_Oil9902@reddit
They ratified the 13th amendment in 1901
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Not according to the National Archives.
HughLouisDewey@reddit
You're both right. Delaware initially rejected the 13th Amendment but then voted to ratify it in 1901.
But that doesn't matter because once the requisite number of states ratified it, it became law for the whole country, whether that state voted for or against it.
Delicious_Oil9902@reddit
Interesting - I thought I read Delaware was one of the last states to actually ratify it.
NamingandEatingPets@reddit
New York also had slaves but no one would ever call it the South. There are assholes everywhere, they’re just more highly concentrated where the weather doesn’t require snow boots that often.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
New York was not a slave state during the American Civil War. New York is not south of the Mason Dixon line.
NamingandEatingPets@reddit
New York was not a slave state, but slavery was permitted in New York, and about 20% of the population of the state consisted of enslaved people. Sounds pretty slave-y to me, latitudes be damned.
whiskeyworshiper@reddit
Delaware is East of the Mason Dixon line so technically it does not
Measurex2@reddit
Not quite. Delaware is uniquely east of the Mason-Dixon line.
Ibn-Rushd@reddit
I went to a restaurant literally 50 ft north of the Transpeninsular Line in Fenwick and they did not have sweet tea when I ordered it, confirming the south does in fact end at Maryland and not Delaware 😛
Artvandelay29@reddit
Maryland is unequivocally not the south.
I grew up going there annually and nothing about it fits in culturally with any southern state despite what the Mason-Dixon Line says
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Most Southern states don't have much of anything in common culturally with each other, either. "The South" isn't all one, big, umbrella culture, no matter how many people try to shoehorn it in that way.
Your_Worship@reddit
I don’t know. Many agree on college football, common cuisine (think biscuits and gravy), outdoors like hunting and fishing, arguing about whose state has harsher summers, trucks, Christian, etc.
goodsam2@reddit
Biscuits and gravy is not southern but Appalachian.
I was in Charleston and they had terrible biscuits and gravy.
Your_Worship@reddit
I’ve had bad pizza in New York. One bad experience doesn’t mean it isn’t a southern staple.
The Appalachia region stretches from NY to MS.
Buy just about any cookbook that focuses on Southern Cuisine and it’ll be there.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
That's rural, not Southern. You'll find most of that anywhere you have rural areas in the US, although they may swap harsh summers for harsh winter, depending on the locale.
Jdevers77@reddit
Hell parts of southern states have little in common with other parts of their own states. Memphis is about as much like Knoxville as Tucson is Seattle.
abbot_x@reddit
From 1939 to 2021 the state song was “Maryland O Maryland,” which was a call for Maryland to join the Confederacy.
daybits@reddit
I’ve lived on the eastern shore for several decades and can say we are southern af. I laughed at how confidently wrong you are.
Ibn-Rushd@reddit
I grew up in southern Maryland and moved to the Mississippi delta and came to the exact opposite conclusion lol. The culture I grew up in was unequivocally the south.
smuthayamutha@reddit
My visits to the eastern shore have definitely felt more southern. The Chesapeake with its narrow passages, shallow depth, and brackish water is very different from the coastal culture of the northeast.
Ziggity_Zac@reddit
I worked in Aberdeen a couple of years ago (I am from the western part of the country and work all over the US) and heard Maryland referred to as "the south" many times by Marylanders while I was there. In my mind, they were "northeast," and when I mentioned this, I was corrected. They said "mid Atlantic" or "the south".
catsandcoconuts@reddit
mid atlantic period. apg? lol.
Ziggity_Zac@reddit
No, I'm in construction.
catsandcoconuts@reddit
word. but yea def “mid atlantic”! md, de,ne,south nj maybe.
Orienos@reddit
Maryland is the south of the north and Virginia is the north of the south.
enstillhet@reddit
Wait, do Marylanders want to be in the south or not? I don't even know.
Dark_Tora9009@reddit
I don’t and don’t consider it to be so. I mean it’s historically a border state, but all of the sort of population centers are far more similar to Pennsylvania and Delaware culturally than anywhere in “the South.” We’re a small coastal state, ran on industry, trade and immigrants for a long time, we’ve been politically one of the “bluest” states forever.
Sure, Southern Maryland will feel more Southern, but Western Maryland is undeniably Appalachian and more Appalachian than Southern Maryland is Southern imo. There’s also a heavy Appalachian cultural influence in parts of the Baltimore metro due to migration for the steel industry during the depression. So I would actually say we are more hybrid mid-Atlantic/Appalachian than we are Southern. There’s also the argument that Baltimore is a rust belt city.
Our accent is also not remotely Southern outside of Southern Maryland. It’s pretty similar to much of PA and Delaware and again certain areas have an Appalachian twang, but there’s no Southern drawl.
enstillhet@reddit
Fair enough. Thanks for the detailed response. It's good to hear from an actual Marylander about this (is that the correct demonym?)
Dark_Tora9009@reddit
Yes! We are called Marylanders! I’m a funny representative though, I was born and raised here but my family is from NYC and for most of my life I didn’t really consider myself a true “Marylander” but as an adult I do. Part of that is that for such a small state, it’s surprisingly diverse in culture and life style… so I grew up around the more “Appalachian” influenced culture but later moved to what I guess it the more “Mid Atlantic” type area and feel much more at home.
Anyways, I think historically as a colony, we (and Delaware as well) were more Southern but my understanding is that the development of Baltimore and industrialization in the 1800s really changed that… we suddenly had more in common with Philadelphia, New York and Boston than the Carolinas or Virginia. Delaware maybe it’s the connection to Philadelphia and growth of Wilmington. Then more recently the north of DC suburbs became a magnet for college educated folks and immigrants and even more “blue” than Baltimore. PG county (east of DC burbs) is interesting though… that feels way more Southern, but it’s also majority Black and I believe it is one of, if not the wealthiest, majority Black counties in the country; regardless it’s also a Democrat strong hold… so again, all in all, were politically way more like New England and the Tristate area than the South.
tee2green@reddit
Most don’t.
But it has rural areas just like every other state does, and rural areas are politically conservative which correlates with Southerness.
enstillhet@reddit
I mean, I am from rural Maine and we would never consider ourselves southern. But Maryland, to my very northern eyes, looks like it is the south when I look at a map.
tee2green@reddit
True, but then there are people in Alabama and Georgia who look up at Maryland and shake their heads at the idea of those people considering themselves southerners.
enstillhet@reddit
Yeah. It's all about perspective. I can see why someone in Alabama might think that just as I can see why I think Maryland should be considered the south.
If you asked some Mainers they'd say the south starts somewhere around southern Maine. Others might say Connecticut is the south. It's all perspective mixed with personal opinion.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Most don't, no, especially in Baltimore, Annapolis, and areas just north of DC. Get out in the sticks and you have a bit of a "Mid-Atlantic" streak.
touchmeimjesus202@reddit
Southern Maryland is the South to me
tibearius1123@reddit
Texas is not the south. We don’t fuck our cousins like those inbreds.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Fun fact: cousin marriage is actually illegal pretty much all of the south. Know where it's legal? California.
That said, yes, Texas is still in the South, but it's a different kind of south; it's the Southwest.
inevergreene@reddit
As someone who grew up on the AZ/NM line and now lives in the South, Texas is neither the Southwest nor the South. It’s just Texas.
tibearius1123@reddit
California sucks too, minus the weather and natural environment.
itds@reddit
I’ll make it easier.
“Did this state secede from the Union during the American Civil War?”
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Not all states that held slaves seceded.
itds@reddit
That’s true, but those that did not secede are considered Northern states. Kansas, for example.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
The five states that held slaves during the American Civil War and didn't secede were Missouri, Maryland, Kentucky, Delaware, and West Virginia. The only one of those four that might have an argument against being in the South is Delaware.
Kansas entered the Union as a Free State three months before the war began.
3mptyspaces@reddit
And yet most people don’t think of VA as the south.
Dark_Tora9009@reddit
To me it depends on the part of Virginia, but it is almost like a gradient. Nova really isn’t “the South” but it is more so than Maryland. You cross that border, even on 495, and there’s something different over there. Maybe not a ton of Confederate flags until you get another 30 miles down 95, but plenty of Gadsden flags. People bitch about taxes and like going to church a lot more than we do over here. Even just like the shopping centers and layout… it just feels different. Though I would actually say the same about PG county Maryland come to think of it… it always feels sort of like Georgia to me down there, but rest of the DC-Baltimore area doesn’t at all.
3mptyspaces@reddit
Oh yeah, our states have a lot in common this way.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
The state that held the capitol of the Confederacy, home of Robert E. Lee, is definitely the South.
3mptyspaces@reddit
I know! I live there. I’ve been all over the South and few people I meet there consider Virginia to the “The South,” as they see it. That’s all I’m saying here.
Measurex2@reddit
I'd contend most people consider it part of the south. From the 13 colonies past the Civil War it's certainly identified as a Southern State.
3mptyspaces@reddit
Hardly anyone from anywhere further south does. Even though we were equally traitorous.
StarSines@reddit
I accept that as a Marylander all I can really know for sure is we have the best crab cakes, and I don’t even know that because I’m allergic to shellfish 🥲
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
It's okay, your heart is pure.
the_sir_z@reddit
This starts to fall apart with Texas. No one can seriously claim El Paso is the South, it's 100% Southwest. That said, East Texas is absolutely the South.
The border does not easily fit State lines.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Yeah, the divider is about where the Mountain Time Zone was in 1919-1921, more or less. Texas is kinda in its own category.
Really the list only works East of the Mississippi.
the_sir_z@reddit
I maintain the border is around I45.
Austin and San Antonio feel more Southwest as well, and Fort Worth calls itself "Where the West Begins".
But your line has merit, as well.
WokestWombat@reddit
Also to the chagrin of south Floridians.
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
Eh, they're North Cuba, anyway.
tee2green@reddit
I don’t hate any of these in isolation, but if it results in MD being labeled a Southern state, then something is missing from the model.
Altruistic_Squash_97@reddit
Is there a Belk?
LoudCrickets72@reddit
For my state, 1 is debatable. Yes to 2 but remained in the union, yes to 3. Maybe yes to 4? Either way, I don't consider MO the South.
5YOChemist@reddit
Dude the south like follows 44. Joplin, Ozark:definitely the south, Pacific:maybe; STL, NoCo absolutely not.
AcidReign25@reddit
Being in Ohio which literally is part of the northern border, #3 and #4 make zero sense to me. WH are everywhere. Every Applebee’s I have ever been in has both teas. That being said, most of the Applebees anywhere near me have closed. .😂
ComesInAnOldBox@reddit
That's why you have to have the first two, as well. Ohio is North of the extended Mason-Dixon (i.e., West of Pennsylvania, to follows the West Virginia border) and wasn't a slave state during the Civil War.
As for the Waffle Houses, there are currently 25 states without them, and you often won't find sweet tea in most restaurants in a lot of states in the US (actual purpose-brewed sweet tea, not the Raspberry Tea you'll find in the Rockies).
cmhoughton@reddit
Virginia is below the Mason-Dixon Line, so it’s in the south.
The MD line is the straight line on the southern border of PA to where it goes across to the western border of Delaware…
That line was used to decide the borders of Virginia, Maryland, Delaware, and Pennsylvania in the 1700s and was later used to decide which new states were free and which were slave-holding.
I’m not sure Marylanders consider themselves to be ‘Southern,’ however…
DrGerbal@reddit
Every state with an SEC Team + North Carolina and Virginia
tu-vens-tu-vens@reddit
And minus Missouri.
madman54218374125@reddit
I get interested in this on the Western side. Texas is south, it's west, it's southwest?
cocolovesmetoo@reddit
Texas is all three - the south, just texas, and southwest. It's that big. The east side of Texas is undeniably the South. The west side of texas is for sure the southwest. It's the middle that is up in the air (Austin, TX).... so we just call this group uniquely Texan.
madman54218374125@reddit
good point!
Educatedrednekk@reddit
Well nowadays the South like all places, has mostly lost any real uniqueness. Especially since Trump, when people in Ohio are flying rebel flags and trying to become Alabama.
Vast_Reaction_249@reddit
Just so you know, Texas is Texan and not Southern.
ilBrunissimo@reddit
Virginia is tough.
NoVA folks will split on whether it is southern or not.
The editors of Southern Living magazine regularly do features on NoVA, especially Alexandria.
If you know the South, you see it in NoVA.
But venture out to Charlottesville and you’ll see a Belk, Krogers, Cane’s, and plenty of other Southern businesses and it becomes obviously Southern.
OhThrowed@reddit
It's arguable and argued about amongst the southerners.
jephph_@reddit
Eh, Northerners can argue about it too. After all, “where’s the South” is the same question as “where’s the Nortg”
Speedhabit@reddit
The east, the far east
thunderclone1@reddit
If you keep an ice scraper in your car for more than half of the year just in case, you are in the north
Rogers_Razor@reddit
Neither my scraper nor my snow broom ever actually get taken out of the truck.
creamcandy@reddit
I look to see if I have one a couple times a year. If I'm lucky, I find one in the car.
GeorgePosada@reddit
Eh from my perspective the South can have most of the disputed area. Hell, let them take Delaware too
Secret_Number_420@reddit
Delaware, slave state
hazcan@reddit
I was much older than I should have been when I learned that the Mason-Dixon Line would cut through South Jersey if it didn’t cut south around Delaware.
TheDinosaurScene@reddit
The problem is neither side is trying to get more territory. They are both being more exclusive.
which leaves a 3rd party in the middle
jephph_@reddit
lol fair enough
nlpnt@reddit
Anyplace you can't get Canadian TV over-the-air.
Measurex2@reddit
Sure but when I hear folks saying "ya'll" in Ontario then everything I know feels wrong. Left is right, up is down and short is long.
omnipresent_sailfish@reddit
OP trying to start a Reddit fight
Speedhabit@reddit
The south is from pa to Florida or the Carolina lowlands
PenPoo95@reddit
I consider KY, WV, NC, SC, TN, GA, AL, MS, LA, northern FL, and VA minus NOVA to be culturally southern
cocolovesmetoo@reddit
I would for sure add Eastern parts of Texas.
cavalier78@reddit
The Northern boundary of "The South" is Virginia and Kentucky. Leave out Missouri.
The Western boundary is Arkansas and Louisiana. Everything South and East of these states is "The South".
The upper half of Virginia is really a Washington DC suburb at this point, and is basically an invasion by people from the Northeast. Technically the South, but occupied territory.
Missouri is where the South stops and the Midwest begins.
Texas and Oklahoma are where the South stops and the Southwest begins.
Southern-Ad-802@reddit
East Texas is the Deep South. Central Texas is just… Texas. West Texas is the Southwest.
cocolovesmetoo@reddit
This is the most accurate comment I've ever seen about Texas and the South.
RiverRedhead@reddit
I think of NOVA as "not the south," the 757 as "Diet South" (mostly because of the generalizing culture force of the military presence) and pretty much everything else in VA as definitely Southern. Only about a third of the VA population lives in NOVA, so it's not really representative of the state writ large.
TinyRandomLady@reddit
Oklahoma is part of the South. It wasn’t a state during the American Civil War, but the five civilized tribes fought for the confederacy.
Borkton@reddit
the MD/PA border
Aggravating-Grand840@reddit
North of Richmond
creamcandy@reddit
But where is Appalachia? It's not really north or south, it's a different culture. Maybe they're the buffer between? Or maybe they're just in the mountains, where it's beautiful.
Kitty_Queenx@reddit
I'm also from VA (not NOVA) and encounter this a lot. NOVA and the rest of Virginia are VERY different from each other. Different accents, everything. IMO you are southern. So am I. If you ask anyone from NOVA they will most likely tell you that you are from the south too but they are not. Lol
Roy_F_Kent@reddit
In Florida the north is in the south but the south is in the north.
HavBoWilTrvl@reddit
Having lived in Ft Lauderdale, all I can say is amen, brother.
South Florida is actually a piece of New York that broke off, floated down, and got stuck on the Keys.
HavBoWilTrvl@reddit
The Mason-Dixon line is a surveyors line that divides North from South. There is some debate on how far east The South, as a region, extends.
A good rule of thumb is, if a state fought on the side of the Confederacy, it's a Southern state .
WhichSpirit@reddit
If you were part of the Confederacy, you're the South. The South isn't limited to the traitors but stay in your lane, Virginia.
Pyroluminous@reddit
Southern States Border: Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Texas, and anything south of these states.
Southwest: New Mexico, Colorado, Utah, Arizona.
West: Nevada, California, Oregon, Washington
Midwest: Kansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Iowa, South Dakota, Wyoming, Nebraska.
North: Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan
IDK: Illinois, Indiana, Ohio.
Potato: Idaho
Northeast/“New England”: Everywhere else not referenced above.
Juicy_Hamburger@reddit
I’m from Delaware/Maryland and I don’t consider us as the South. But not really “northern” either…Mid-Atlantic feels right. As for VA, it depends on where. Like NOVA would not be the same as other parts of VA
OK_Ingenue@reddit
I’ll say the South the west end of the south is in East TX and includes Houston.
thux2001@reddit
The south starts wherever a few flurries and a little ice wreak havoc and biscuits and gravy is a standard breakfast option
NicklAAAAs@reddit
The answer to a surprising number of “where does this region end” questions is “around Kentucky.” Appalachia? Around Eastern Kentucky. The South? Around southern Kentucky. The Midwest? Around northern Kentucky. The plains? Probably Missouri, honestly, but maybe western Kentucky if you wanna stretch yourself.
Abefroman12@reddit
The South begins at the Florence Y’all water tower when you’re driving on I-71/75 south from Cincinnati.
Tom__mm@reddit
Love that Florence water tower. Maybe more historically significant is the Ohio river itself just north of the water tower. It was once the border between slave and free. Kentucky and Indiana share the river boulder but what a world of difference.
SensationalSavior@reddit
Henry Clay and Cassius Marcellus Clay went brrrrt back in the day. Kentucky history is wild when you dive deep into it and realize we actually mattered back in the day lol
Ok_Stop7366@reddit
The most powerful senator of the last 20 years, and the longest serving senate majority leader in us history is from your state.
You’re still relevant.
SensationalSavior@reddit
For the wrong reasons tho. This state is beautiful with a huge amount of farmland, natural resources and amazing people. We just get over shadowed by a ancient turtle, disregarded because of prejudice, and honest ignorance of the value of our state.
If they ever pass recreational marijuana, this state will literally explode with cash. Some of the best bud I've ever had came from this state. Until then, they'll just keep promising industrial jobs then bailing once they secure funding( looking at you Brady industries).
yellowodontamachus@reddit
Kentucky’s a mixed bag, right? Tons of potential with all that farmland and landscapes, but it's frustrating seeing it consistently overshadowed. Moving to PA, I realized how underrated Kentucky’s history and resources are. If they legalize weed, it could bring a wave of new money. Some of the states have done quite well after doing that. Companies like Brady and their broken promises hurt, though. That's where services like Aritas Advisors might step in, especially if Kentucky businesses want to navigate the financial landscape more strategically.
SensationalSavior@reddit
What really hurt this state, and my area specifically is when they moved the steel industry out of it. Some of the best steel in the world was made 8 minutes down the road, now the only thing left in this area is a gigantic hospital. Between CSX, Armco/AK steel, and all the supporting industries, my area was set to be the next Louisville. Then piss poor planning, social engineering, and greed ruined it all. "Can't let those hillbillies off the governments teet, they'll realize we've been fuckin em for years" sorta ordeal.
We have all the things needed to become a MASSIVE industrial hub again, except the money. We have a giant river to ship, massive train yard, 2 interstates within an hour of each other, etc. Just no one wants to take that gamble.
Maybe I'm overthinking things.
yellowodontamachus@reddit
Kentucky’s definitely got all the right ingredients to be an industrial powerhouse, it’s just missing the key funding ingredient. I hear ya about the steel industry—it's hard seeing an area’s potential wasted because of poor leadership and greed. When I think of states turning things around, I’ve seen companies like Aritas Advisors support small and mid-sized companies in strategic ways, just like how good ol’ CSX used to boost local economies. Imagine if we could channel energy into something like Louisville just exploded with bourbon buzz. Kentucky could use a finance hit—there’s no shortage of grit and spirit there, that’s for sure.
TheLizardKing89@reddit
It’s debatable but Virginia is definitely in the South. If your state was part of the Confederacy, you are definitely in the South.
EyesWithoutAbutt@reddit
South Carolina
maisymowse@reddit
I'm a Virginian. I always say it's not all that southern geographically. It's more mid-atlantic. But I would still say it's culturally southern, but not in the same way Alabama or Louisiana is. I think Virginia counts because of it being the capital of the Confederacy. Additionally, I'm from the western part of the state which is part of Appalachia. So it is definitely more rural. So I understand why some people look at NOVA and say, 'no' but look at the Blue Ridge and say 'yes'.
scorch148@reddit
Here in VA usually the general consensus is that Richmond is the line and everything north of it is "the North"
Wooden_Cold_8084@reddit
Where is the center?
scorch148@reddit
Richmond right smack in the middle of the state haha
rrsafety@reddit
VA is the south.
Wooden_Cold_8084@reddit
It's all these northeasterners who are full of bad takes
AngryManBoy@reddit
Want to see me start a fight? Texas isn’t the south.
Wooden_Cold_8084@reddit
Texas is Texas
GuitarEvening8674@reddit
Robert E. Lee was born in Virginia for Gods sake... his old home was turned into a cemetery as punishment... how could Virginia not be a southern state?
Wooden_Cold_8084@reddit
Because they're not Alabama/Mississippi/Louisiana/Georgia
TopImpressive9564@reddit
You could get technical about the actual boundaries by going off of confederate states historically but culturally it’s a bit more difficult
For boundaries on each side roughly:
North: basically a line up to right below NOVA suburbs. Also includes Kentucky, West Virginia(?) South Missouri
West: it technically ends once you hit Texas, because Texas is Texas. But East Texas shares a lot culturally with the South from what I’ve heard over to Austin, along with parts of Oklahoma and Kansas as well but that’s kind of a stretch, ultimately it’s kinda mixed over there between Midwest and Great Plains imo
South: ends halfway through Florida.
East: Coast.
It could be entirely different based on experiences but this is the closest to what I’ve seen
jlanger23@reddit
I always claim it in Oklahoma because our culture is Southern. Most Oklahoma families came from the Appalachians or lower South and that culture carried over. Pretty much all of mine either came from Kentucky or Tennessee in the mid-1800's.
morefetus@reddit
I ordered tea in Oklahoma and it was sweet.
Ihasknees936@reddit
I'd argue that the South ends in Texas by the time you hit I-45. I've lived in the I-35 corridor, Brazos Valley and the Southwestern most part of the ArkLaTex and there's definitely less in common with the general South in Texas once you leave the piney woods.
Your_Worship@reddit
Same. Grew up in ArkLaTex. Lived in Ark, La, MS, MO. Didn’t see that much of a difference between any of those states (Southern Louisiana being an exception) and North Eastern Texas.
1maco@reddit
It’s still the Mason Dixon line.
Yes a lot of people migrated to DC or Miami but they’re still the south.
Nobody says RI isn’t New England anymore because it’s too Catholic rather than Protestant. So Miami is still the south even if it’s Latino and DC is still the south despite it having migrants from the North and west.
There is a campaign by “marginally” southern cities like DC, Houston, Baltimore, Miami to claim their not really Southern because it’s “shameful” in professional circles to be associated with like Rural Alabama.
Rbkelley1@reddit
The south ends at Triangle, Va.
vadabungo@reddit
As a person that lived a large part of my life in Geneva county Alabama, the answer is Alabama, Mississippi, and Georgia. Also northern parts of Florida. Maybe parts of South Carolina and Tennessee. (Maybe)
As far as official. I guess Alabama up to Maryland/Pennsylvania line. East of the Mississippi
Leinad0411@reddit
Strictly, I’d say the South begins at the old Mason-Dixon Line. This is also how the U.S. Census Bureau defines it. Which makes me a Southerner. But like most things, there are degrees of Southerness. For example, South Carolinians don’t consider Virginians to be Southerns. I’d say they both are.
Ill_Pressure3893@reddit
Hell.
Secret_Number_420@reddit
I like this map
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CKuEDm4FpcQ/W9yUeGQBqcI/AAAAAAAAKss/dV0VXB7_9DoPqEumyy-Cup-0bTGy1F-lACLcBGAs/s1600/Southern%2BCulture%2BMap%2B%25282%2529.jpg
MortimerDongle@reddit
Yeah, when I think of Virginia I think of Alexandria or Leesburg, which don't feel very southern. But certainly other parts of the state do.
For me personally, I think south of Richmond is a decent line, but it's not perfect, certainly there are places north of there that feel more southern and places to the south that feel more northern.
warneagle@reddit
I live in Arlington and there’s nothing remotely southern about it. You can’t find Waffle House until you get to Richmond so I would say that’s the cutoff.
MillieBirdie@reddit
What? There's loads of Waffle Houses in Prince William County which is hours north of Richmond.
Top-Ad-5795@reddit
I live in Leesburg and would concur. South of Richmond is the start of “The South”.
Dr_Benway_89@reddit
Yeah I think a good rule of thumb as to whether someplace is Southern - is there a Waffle House nearby?
MillieBirdie@reddit
I'm from Nova and most of us still consider us southern. Virginia was literally a southern state.
I don't think someone from PA gets to decide lol
PaintsWithSmegma@reddit
The Mason-Dixon line. But I'm from Minnesota so a lot of the country is south of me.
Nice-Stuff-5711@reddit
Where rednecks begin!
OshkoshCorporate@reddit
ive been told by my deep south friends that west virginia is southern-adjacent. as for virginia id say around/past roanoke maybe?
Schneeder7@reddit
Virginia is the northernmost southern state to me. I consider Maryland and Delaware to be the northeast tho. Missouri is the midwest, Kentucky and West Virginia are the south as well
goodsam2@reddit
Parts of Maryland get pretty southern but most people live on the 95 corridor.
thatguywithatoaster@reddit
I mostly agree with this, however, Kentucky/WV in my opinion have a different culture than much of the south. They are distinctly Appalachian, however, if I had to categorize them either northern or southern, I'd definitely choose southern.
SensationalSavior@reddit
Eastern Kentucky is Appalachian, western Kentucky is more Midwest. Then you have lexington, which is just confused about what it is.
Measurex2@reddit
Because of the drinking?
SensationalSavior@reddit
It's like caught in the middle of all the zones so it's partly all of them. I've seen a tractor on a road, followed by a Ferrari and a beat up 80's chevy 1500 right beside the airport. Shits wild down there.
smuthayamutha@reddit
We in the northeast do not claim Maryland either. It’s definitely culturally distinct from New England + NJ + NY.
jeremy_bearimyy@reddit
I've always heard south NJ to Virginia be called mid Atlantic. It doesn't fit either north or south very well.
GeorgePosada@reddit
I view it as its own subregion of the northeast. South Jersey has more in common with Delaware and Maryland than it does with NY or even North Jersey
RiverRedhead@reddit
I think most of why people say VA isn't the South (despite it being the first southern state by founding date) usually comes down to at least one of three things:
Martin_Z_Martian@reddit
Kentucky is not the south.
Kentucky/Tennessee is Appalachian.
Schneeder7@reddit
The south has different groups within it. When looking at the 4 basic regions of the us (west, south, midwest, northeast), Kentucky and Tennessee are the south. Also, Tennessee is literally where the KKK started
Martin_Z_Martian@reddit
My guess is if you ask 100 Americans you are going to get 100 variations on an answer.
Scheminem17@reddit
I saw a model once that plotted a line of counties from VA thru Texas to form the boundary for “The South.” The criteria for these counties was: “if I go into a McDonalds and ask for an iced tea, will the default be sweet or unsweetened?”
I have always chuckled at this measure as, while it is humorous, it isn’t entirely ridiculous.
Exciting-Half3577@reddit
If you're not in New York State you're in the South. If you're to the east or northeast of New York State you're in the part of the South that used to burn witches.
Exciting-Half3577@reddit
Seriously though it's not really a great question. There are a bunch of cultural maps of the U.S. on the internet. This is a pretty good one (below). It shows a lot of different "sub-regions" that are certainly legit like Acadiana in southern Louisiana (which is "the South" but nothing like North Carolina or Georgia) and the Great Lakes region because there's a lot of cultural similarities between Buffalo and Duluth. The Great Lakes region also has its own accent that's distinct from, say, Pennsylvania. People in Chicago have a similar accent to people in Rochester, NY.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Maps/comments/n9hx3r/united_states_cultural_regions_map_lower_48/
Reverend_Ooga_Booga@reddit
Culturally or historically?
EmmalouEsq@reddit
The Mason Dixon line is where I always think of it.
katekyne@reddit
I'm from Missouri and many of us consider southern missouri the south and northern missouri midwest. Might just be my specific area though
HVAC_instructor@reddit
I think Kentucky is a southern state. I would clarify Virginia to be Southern as well.
PAXICHEN@reddit
Williamsburg may have been the south, but it ain’t no more.
trae_curieux@reddit
I think per the Census Bureau, DC is categorized as part of the South, but in my mind, I have a separate category of "mid-Atlantic" states (or districts, in the case of DC) that are too far north to be a part of the South, too far East to be part of the Midwest, and too far South to be part of New England. DC would fall unto this region, in my mind.
I usually demarcate the northernmost part of the South at Arkansas, Kentucky, and North Carolina, and westernmost part is at Louisiana or maybe the eastern half of Texas.
PineapplePza766@reddit
I think va is kinda mixed
Plow_King@reddit
i'm from missouri and went to school with a guy from virginia. he once asked me is we have alligators in missouri.
Funneduck102@reddit
When I drive into Maryland from PA I can kinda feel the shift lol
verifiedkyle@reddit
Civil War defines it for me - grew up in New Jersey
holiestcannoly@reddit
As someone from PA, if you are below the Mason-Dixon line, you are from the south. Not to mention Virginia was fighting for the right to continue to own slaves (the South) in the Civil War.
Beneficial-Horse8503@reddit
Where they say y’all.
cdb03b@reddit
The Mason Dixon Line is where the South begins. It ends in East Texas.
ButtSexington3rd@reddit
It's got something to do with Virginia. I don't know how it where the line is, but somehow Virginia is involved.
jephph_@reddit
The easiest and most accurate method:
https://imgur.com/a/hEPVfZH
Your_Worship@reddit
Simple, yet accurate.
Opportunity_Massive@reddit
Maryland and further south is the south. I grew up in Virginia, lived in Georgia for decades, I know the south. Maryland has a lot in common culturally with the south, which you can feel when you visit. But that’s where the south begins, and it gets deeper as you go south. The south ends at north Florida and in west Texas.
Gomdok_the_Short@reddit
Kentucky. But I've heard there is a region called Pennsatucky.
VillagerOfTheWest@reddit
As soon as you start hitting rural areas south of DC It begins. VA isn’t as ‘Southern’ as other states, but it still is the South. MD and South Florida also aren’t included.
nlpnt@reddit
And the South ends at Orlando. South of that you're in South Florida which is its' own thing.
problyurdad_@reddit
I drive from northern Wisconsin to Tampa twice a year and I would say it starts getting “south,” around the southern tip of Indiana/Illinois in terms of the Midwest. As you get into Kentucky it rapidly ramps up.
Galaxy_Ranger_Bob@reddit
At the limits between the suburbs and rural countryside.
wisemonkey101@reddit
The other day I went into a restaurant that smelled like Pine Sol. Reeked. I left immediately.
evergladescowboy@reddit
If it seceded during the War Between The States, it’s a Southern State by the Grace of God.
Altruistic-Ad-3062@reddit
The quote I ever heard about VA was that it is the most “northern southern state” and the most “southern northern state”. Something like that! Went to Richmond over the summer and agreed 110%
Crayshack@reddit
I grew up in NOVA. I always thought of the northern border of the South as the Occoquan. Though, I've also heard the Rappahanock argued and Quantico settled on as an acceptable compromise between the two. So, where I lived was not the South, but most of Virginia was.
Measurex2@reddit
Checking the map, there's a waffle house in dumfries so this tracks for me.
bfhurricane@reddit
As soon as you leave Richmond south on 95, you’re officially in the South.
NOVA may not be “north,” but it definitely isn’t “south.”
AdFinancial8924@reddit
I agree with you. I would say once you’re south of the DC metro in VA you’re in the south.
Zziggith@reddit
I live in South Carolina. I was once called a northerner for being born in North Carolina.
No-Conversation1940@reddit
I don't know, but I grew up in southern Missouri. I never had the impression I was anything other than Midwestern, and neither did the people around me. Maybe we're just too dumb to know what we are, and we need people from other parts of the country to lecture us.
voteblue18@reddit
I did the road trip from NY to Florida multiple times when I was a kid and my parents always said that when we entered Delaware from NJ that was the start of the South. I don’t know. We never spent any time there so I can’t speak to how culturally South it is. I would say Maryland is a better starting point.
washtucna@reddit
I consider The South to be any state that had legal slavery as of April 12, 1861.
colorcodesaiddocstm@reddit
does it matter anymore. lots of folks escaping NY NJ CT IL to move to SC GA TN FL TX
HoyAIAG@reddit
Anything south of state route 82 in Ohio
Illustrious-Lead-960@reddit
These things are always subjective debates of semantics.
RespectableBloke69@reddit
Officially: Mason-Dixon line
Anecdotally: I think Virginians are a little yankee and I know South Carolinians think I am
Technical_Plum2239@reddit
It's not deep South but it's the South. It's in the Southern portion of the country, especially historically, below the Mason Dixon line. Cotton, cotillions, Jim Crow, Slavery, Confederacy, sweet tea, barbeque origins, peanut farms.
I have NO idea why someone would want to gate keep it so much-- and I am surprised someone from the North thinks it's not Southern enough. Seems weird.
Crayshack@reddit
In my experience, it's usually people who are in the borderline areas that don't identify as Southern that gatekeep it. A lot of people in this thread say that I live in the South, but I've never considered myself to. I've always thought of my region as the Mid-Atlantic, not the South. Culturally, I have much more in common with New York and Boston than I do Atlanta or Jackson.
Technical_Plum2239@reddit
Yeah, but Massachusetts people? People from Massachusetts are basically 3/4 fairly recent immigrants. It doesn't make Massachusetts not New England.
Crayshack@reddit
What does that have to do with whether or not Maryland is a part of the South?
taffibunni@reddit
The south is defined by where the tea is automatically iced and sweet. It starts in an undefined area of southern North Carolina.
flaminfiddler@reddit
I live in Maryland. When I cross the Potomac into Northern Virginia, the trees get taller and greener, the red brick buildings of the Northeast turn into glass and concrete, and the highways get wider. It just feels Southern, even though our political views and culture are pretty similar.
ChefMomof2@reddit
At the Mason Dixon Line
paiddirt@reddit
It’s the south. People in NOVA aren’t from long time VA families so that area has culturally changed. Rest of VA is still the south.
calicoskiies@reddit
I consider Virginia part of the south.
robbert-the-skull@reddit
Geographically and historically it ended around the Appalachian mountain range. So many people moved north from the Appalachia though that culturally it's a bit muddied.
cantseemeimblackice@reddit
My PA cousins would call us in MD southerners.
WokestWombat@reddit
Typically these questions work to define whether a state is in the south:
Is the state below the Mason-Dixon Line?
Was the state a member of the confederacy?
If you order iced tea, do you get sweet tea?
Is there a Waffle House?
Were there Jim Crow laws?
Is chicken and waffles a thing?
If you answered yes to 3 or more, your state is in the South. Sorry, Maryland and Florida.
Vachic09@reddit
The northern point is somewhere between Quantico and Fredericksburg on the coast. The southern point is around Orlando. It extends west to eastern Texas. Kentucky and West Virginia don't really qualify except maybe a few bordering counties.
Heykurat@reddit
The capital of the Confederacy was in Virginia. Of course it's Southern.
LeadDiscovery@reddit
It starts where you smile at the twang in their voice, goes all the way down through to where you can't understand them at all, then back to the twang and you find yourself somewhere near Texas.....
Infinite-Surprise-53@reddit
I feel like everyone either thinks that Virginia is the official capitol of racism or entirely a DC suburb
Altruistic_Squash_97@reddit
South of Spotsylvania County in VA
KithMeImTyson@reddit
I'm over here in Kansas, like, "Why's it matter?" Just don't answer the door when anyone knocks 😂
Eyesliketheocean@reddit
Mason dixson line is the start of the south and ends at the gulf coast.
guywithshades85@reddit
Draw a straight line that goes through Harrisonburg and Fredericksburg that goes through the state. North of that line is north, south is south.
Low-Cat4360@reddit
Even Southerners debate this to no end. The change can Southern to not-Southern is gradual, there is not an exact line. Some states are partly Southern but gradually transition to something else the further you get to the state line. No two people agree where to mark it
GoDisney@reddit
If you ask for tea and they say they have raspberry tea or hand you hot tea, it is not the south.
Tiny_Presentation441@reddit
On the eetern seaboard, it's richmond VA to Ocala FL.
JWC123452099@reddit
Can I choose a non-Chinese restaurant at random and have a better than 50% chance that the fried chicken is good?
Is an inch of snow a public emergency
If the answer to the first question is "yes' and the answer to the second question is " no", in this yankee's opinion, you're in the south.
no_good_namez@reddit
People generally tend to think of the US East Coast as having a North-South divide, traditionally at the Mason-Dixon Line and colloquially either in DC proper or south of the NoVa DC suburbs.
People who live in that area consider themselves the Mid-Atlantic, which is a term really only used by that region and demographers. It stretches from somewhere in New Jersey to somewhere in Virginia.
Almajanna256@reddit
The boundaries are best indicated by ancestry. Where Germans settled is the Midwest; the English areas are broken into four isolated parts; the NE, South, the Mormons, and the West Coast. There are other populations (like Italians or the Black Belt) which help reinforce these boundaries. I used a map of counties with most frequent ancestry to make this conclusion.
Virginia is one of the founding states of the South being settled by the Cavaliers and including Richmond. If Virginia has more in common with the North than the South, then the old regional boundaries don't make any sense. But it probably doesn't considering the accent and hospitality culture yet remain in most of Virginia.
I think the SEC minus Missouri is a good indicator of boundaries; however, as someone from the "deep north" with a relative in the Ozarks who played in a sports conference with Missouri teams, I gotta say Missouri is not exactly a Great Lakes culture and is definitely a hybrid between the two regions.
Kaurifish@reddit
There’s a fascinating book (pretty out of date now) The Nine Nations of North America where the author mapped businesses with “Dixie” in their names to show the area.
Ibn-Rushd@reddit
I like the variation on its map that separates off the Tidewater. Eastern Virginia and North Carolina is by far the most familiar part of the country to me as a Marylander.
Ok_Stop7366@reddit
Mason Dixon line is generally considered the cut off.
There’s many who will argue about the margins.
No one would argue Tennessee, South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, Alabama, Arkansas, Louisiana.
Few would argue Virginia, Kentucky, North Carolina, W. Virginia, Northern Florida.
A few more would say Maryland, Delaware, Texas aren’t.
Only some would include Southern Florida, Oklahoma, Missouri.
devnullopinions@reddit
Starts at S and ends at the h 🙃
Asking for a beginning and end of what would essentially be one or more closed polygonal shapes on a 2d map is not well defined.
Top-Ad-5795@reddit
I live in NOVA and I know it’s a little self centered but I think anything south of NOVA (Richmond is a good marker) counts as the south. People who say it isn’t haven’t been there. It’s every bit as rural and southern as say, North Carolina.
deebville86ed@reddit
I mostly grew up in south Mississippi, and down there we basically only consoder the deep south when speaking of Southern states. Like Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, Georgia, and the panhandle of Florida. Maybe Arkansas and Tennessee. Everywhere else is the north. Texas is it's own thing.
To the rest of the country, it typically starts at the Mason Dixon line
AntaresBounder@reddit
As a Pennsylvanian, the Mason-Dixon which separates PA from Maryland.
mklinger23@reddit
I'm from PA, but I always viewed Richmond as the start basically. Northern VA (DC suburbs) is like the end of the northeast. Maybe after Fredericksburg is like the last northern town/city.
UltraShadowArbiter@reddit
Starts at the Mason -Dixon line and ends at the southern tip of Florida.
John_Fx@reddit
South is more of a culture than a region
Lupiefighter@reddit
From Fredericksburg. We are definitely the midline point where both exist and mirror each other. It is weird as hell considering we are a Civil War town.
FrankCobretti@reddit
If you have a street named after a Confederate general, you’re in the South.
Yes, Alexandria. I’m looking at you.
Meilingcrusader@reddit
I would say like 40-50 miles south of the DC line in Virginia
Ok_Temperature_5019@reddit
The further south you go, the further south the Mason Dixon line will be. Simple as that
A couple of old barbers tools me they figured it was somewhere around Montgomery.
catsandcoconuts@reddit
no it’s a defined line i grew up in elkton/newark.
suspiciousmightstall@reddit
As an Alabamian, not terribly proud of that fact, I consider the south (*modern day*) anything below TN between MS and the Atlantic. Except FL, FL may be the southern most tip of the continental US, but make no mistake FL is a land all on its own. It is not part of the south. Technically KY and VA, but not really imo.
SyrupUsed8821@reddit
You have to understand that almost every southerner has a different idea of what the south is
catsandcoconuts@reddit
and every northerner does too. lol. i don’t identify with the south at all
cikanman@reddit
Being someone who lived up and down the rest cost I'll say the closest consensus is north Carolina and South is THE SOUTH. folks from up north say Maryland and south, but i think both maryland and Virginia will agree they are neither north or south.
Ibn-Rushd@reddit
As a Marylander I want to die whenever people ask this question
Uhhh_what555476384@reddit
Historically it was the "Mason-Dixon" line which was the survey line that set the Maryland-Pennsylvania border.
catsandcoconuts@reddit
yep, this is the correct answer in the mid atlantic. my ex’e father lives right on the md/pa/de border where the mason dixon line was originally established (it’s a big weird rock). there is also a line on 273, there’s a road called mason dixie rd that connects md and de.
nine_of_swords@reddit
Even though I don't agree with the rankings on this site, it all depends on if you view Alabama or Georgia as the more quintessentially Southern state. (Or South Carolina, but that tends to be more puritanical about it, and almost revisionist)
This isn't a merely positive vs negative view of the South thing either. For example, a Georgia view would more lean into a heavily pro-business carte blanche access view as well as a more agricultural presence, whereas an Alabama view involves more involvement of unions and the trades and agriculture has been more fading. An Alabama view is way more preservation focused (historical sites, environment) vs a more business at any cost progress for Georgia (vs almost Lost Cause-y with SC).
But yeah, depending on which of the two/three is most emblematic of the South, the boundary will change.
Horror-Box-6014@reddit
I live close to Maryland. I'm in Pennsylvania. I was under the impression that the South started at the Mason/Dixon Line right over the border in Maryland.
nospecialsnowflake@reddit
I think Virginia is unique in that people who live in the south often say Virginia is not part of it, but people who live in the north often consider it the south.
So in my head I think of it as a “mid Atlantic state.” Solved the problem for me about as well as it probably can. Virginia is just different- it’s a land of “is and isn’t.”
piscesinturrupted@reddit
You hit the wrong part of California and you could ask yourself whether it starts here. Southern may be a state of being more than an actual place atp
Ceorl_Lounge@reddit
Stafford and Fredericksburg are where I think the "South" starts. Had to pull up a map to think it over. South of 234 or West of US-15 is definitely "Real Virginia." It may not be "Deep South" but it's definitely Southern.
showmethenoods@reddit
There is no perfect answer, because the “South” is more a cultural concept than a geographical one.
To me the only actual southern states are what people would refer to as the “Deep South”. Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina and Florida (a whole different argument for Florida lol). States like Arkansas, Tennessee, Kentucky, North Carolina and Virginia have “Southern” parts, but idk if you can call them southern.
No-Conversation1940@reddit
I don't know, but I can tell you as a child of southern Missouri that no one voluntarily accepts us into their region. Everyone says we are somewhere else.
HughLouisDewey@reddit
The pre-SEC Southern Conference.
Or alternately, the 1992-2011 Southeastern Conference coupled with the current Sun Belt Conference. That should broadly work.
donerstude@reddit
The south ended August 9th 1865
backintow3rs@reddit
Many of these comments don't really explain/address the culture of the South. In my opinion, Southernism has expanded far beyond the borders of the Confederacy.
I would consider most of Appalachia, most of Missouri, half of Kansas, and the Northern half of Florida to be part of the South.
WashuOtaku@reddit
Officially, the Mason-Dixon line.
Unofficially, depends what a person's interpretation of the South is and isn't.
Suitable_Tomorrow_71@reddit
The South is pretty much "Any former Confederate state" as far as I'm concerned.
Dr_Benway_89@reddit
I wouldn't consider Northern Virginia very Southern. It's an area with a lot of transplants and international immigration, so a lot of the population doesn't have a strong tie to the South or Southern culture. A lot of the people with Southern accents there probably themselves moved from someplace else in the South to NoVA! When you get past Fredericksburg, then it's more Southern, but even Richmond doesn't feel that much to me. Of the localities mentioned, Stafford has started to get incorporated in the NoVA sprawl, Fredericksburg has some Southern characteristics (e.g. Antique stores with too much Confederate memorabilia for my liking, but you can find that in the North some too) but also is tied some to DC commuters, and Spotsylvania I haven't spent as much time in to say.
CaptainAwesome06@reddit
I'd say Fredericksburg, VA to Orlando, FL. Once you're North of Fredericksburg you get into the outskirts of NoVA. Nobody should be calling that the South. Northern Florida may as well be Alabama Junior so I'd think it starts to trail off by the time you hit Orlando. Further South you get into Miami territory.
moneyman74@reddit
South of Cincinnati....
Ineffable7980x@reddit
This is one of those questions that does not have a definitive answer, but from the point of view of northeasterners, the south begins below DC, which means Virginia on south.
yellowdaisycoffee@reddit
I'm also from Virginia, living in Pennsylvania.
There was a distinct southern culture in Richmond (where I'm from) growing up, and my whole family has a drawl. I consider it the south.
Joliet-Jake@reddit
Virginia is part of the South, but it’s 15hrs North on the interstate from the part of the South that I live in, which does tend to make it feel like a different region to me.
lesliecarbone@reddit
Officially, the Mason-Dixon line,
Unofficially, Fredericksburg.
DOMSdeluise@reddit
if a state seceded, it's the south. simple as.
warneagle@reddit
I don’t consider anything north of Richmond to be the south, but there’s also a distinction between the south in general the Deep South, which I would consider to only be SC/GA/AL/MS/LA/northern FL.
TheBimpo@reddit
Cultural areas are not the same as politically defined areas. Culture is subjective.