Fertility Rates in the Balkans

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No_Conference8569@reddit

They will pull Ceosescu out of the grave, wake him up with water, and then appoint him as Minister of Health. gif

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Only the number of Turks in Turkey is decreasing lol our Arab and Kurdish brothers are having 10 to 15 children, despite this we are so low, no one around me is thinking of having children in the future, including me, we are doomed, jokes aside, I think the Istanbul thing probably will be like Jerusalem, neither the Turks nor the Greeks are the capital of the Kurdish-Arab Federation

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forzente@reddit

Come on brothers, get back to the roots. Look at Central Asia, keep spreading Turkic culture

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AlegusChopChop@reddit

How many Arabs are there in Turkey?

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hegekan@reddit

Pre-immigration craze (aka pre-2011) it was something like 1%

Now nobody knows.

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Sudden_Shock8434@reddit

We don't know exactly between 4 million and 17 million. The government says 4 million, some nationalist parties say 17 million.

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AlegusChopChop@reddit

Damn, you are fucked

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31_hierophanto@reddit

Ottoman Empire 2.0? Hahahaha.

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inalibakma@reddit

my turkish grandparents have 3 children, my kurdish grandparents have 10 (+2 who passed away)

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groinmissile@reddit

A lot of people were hoodwinked into having smaller families because of brilliant government propaganda about "carbon footprints" two decades ago. Now, they're told that the only way to combat an ageing population is to import more people. You couldn't make it up. Moral of the story is never listen to government

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another_countryball@reddit

There's this article in the Cyprus mail about a woman talking about how she is worried to have kids with the impending "climate crisis", I genuinely struggled to read through it, it is just sad

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Greek_Bodybuilder_95@reddit

Actually this is an argument I hear a lot in France and Germany

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another_countryball@reddit

Yeah, here in Cyprus we try a lot to copy the west and this also includes the hysteria about climate change

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MoreXLessMLK@reddit

“Hysteria.” Ok bro. Over 50,000 people die due to heat in Europe every summer, it’s barely snowing in the Alps, every credible scientist believes in climate change, but sure, it’s all Soros propaganda 🫣

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another_countryball@reddit

So your telling me deciding to end your bloodline because "muh carbon in the air" is perfectly rational and not at all hysterical

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MoreXLessMLK@reddit

Where did I write that in my comments? My comment was about climate change being real, not about people abstaining from starting families due to it. I've yet to hear that anywhere except on the internet. People aren't having families because they can't afford to and women don't want to lose their jobs is what I hear IRL.

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another_countryball@reddit

And when did I state that climate change isn't real? When you made your first comment were you arguing with the things I stated or some made up presumption of what I believe based what you think someone stating what I stated would believe?

You should not assume what people believe and rather argue with the things they said they believe.

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MoreXLessMLK@reddit

we try a lot to copy the west and this also includes the hysteria about climate change

Google connotation vs. denotation and then re-read where you specifically wrote, "hysteria about climate change." Word choice matters, and your choice of the word hysteria vs. something like the more neutral word "concern," sends a clear message about your opinions regarding climate change and how serious of an issue you think it is.

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another_countryball@reddit

Bro just can't accept he was wrong 🙄

Hysteria is a perfectly good word to describe it given what I had previously said, it's not my fault you made a caricature of my beliefs

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Lvl100Centrist@reddit

Not a single person refused to have kids because of carbon footprints. Nobody decided to not have kids because the government told them lol. But I am sure this narrative makes you feel smarter than everyone else.

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inevitable_entropy13@reddit

carbon footprint is actually a pretty stupid statistic made up by BP to try to shift blame on to civilians for industrial, military, and petroleum companies polluting the absolute shit out of the air and water. there is no way that the entire civilian population of the WORLD could even half match the pollution caused by manufacturing industries in china and india and the US military even if they tried and all drove diesel pickup trucks.

source: i am a phd chemical engineer who worked for a large corporation in the environmental sector.

everything you hear about pollution is a lie

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Octavian_96@reddit

Governments didn't rush carbon footprint, companies did.

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amphibia__enjoyer@reddit

Are you sure it isn't rising cost of living, less job prospects/emigration and the availability of contraception?

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groinmissile@reddit

Contraception has been available since the 60s. Cost of living and job prospects is a now problem. This propaganda was sown two decades ago, that's a whole generation lost

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basilmakedon@reddit

lol pure BS. youre telling me the main reason people arent having kids is to reduce their carbon footprint? what kind of bubble are you living in

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Special-Remove-3294@reddit

No it hasn't to the same extent as today. Romania banned abortions till 1989 I think and I doubt you could find condoms or birth controll pills in most of the country during that time. The population was actually growing at the time and it went over 23 million before it started declining.

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bobjohndaviddick@reddit

And the pullout method has been available since the dawn of time.

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BishoxX@reddit

No, its the modern culture.

The poorer people are, more kids they have

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kruska345@reddit

Not true at all.

You all are constantly confusing agricultural societies or societies without contraception with "poorer societies". In agricultural societies, such as the Balkans were all until like 60s and 70s, having more children was an advantage. In industrial societies it is a disadvantage.

In the west, where most people work in secondary and tertiary sectors, its money, its common sense. In Croatia average wage is 1000 euros. Renting an average flat in Zagreb costs 500-600 euros, and on the coast its even more expensive. But yes, the reason is for sure "wokeism and modern culture" in the Balkans where 90% of people are religious and traditional xD

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BishoxX@reddit

In the west, the less you earn the more children you have . The richer you are the less you have.

Its modern culture of having less kids thats about it.

Its universal pretty much everywhere except Israel because of strong cohesive culture and emphasis on having children

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PotentialSalty730@reddit

To be fair, getting bamboozled by such stupid shit is eugenics.

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Sanguine_Caesar@reddit

Found the American

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HalayChekenKovboy@reddit

... I don't know what country you are from but I don't think that happened at all in most Balkan countries.

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kruska345@reddit

No one gives a flying fck about carbon footprints in the Balkans lol.

People dont have money and time to breed like cattle. Thats capitalism

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MatchAltruistic5313@reddit

You don't have money and time to "breed like cattle", but you time for "working like a slave" and money for Netflix, takeout food, cigars, alcohol, and other meaningless activities.

The narrative you propagate is harmful to society. It's not capitalism, it's the likes of you and your friends who are scared of the real world and waste time on escapist bullsh*t, all the while taking your frustrations out on "cattle" that have something meaningful going on in their lives.

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kruska345@reddit

but you time for "working like a slave" and money for Netflix, takeout food, cigars, video games, alcohol, and other meaningless activities.

I dont think you understand that the most people in the Balkans dont really work to become ultrabillionares who spend money on Netflix but to survive.

Average wage in Croatia is cca 1200 euros. Average rent in Zagreb is 500-600 euros per month. And on the coast its even more. And the only Balkan country richer than Croatia is Slovenia, while Greece is on the same level, others are doing much worse. Working 8 hours in this economy is pretty much neccessary for survival and it is impossible for one person to provide for family with an average wage.

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laveol@reddit

What are you on about? Is that some Liberland thing? We've never had any government propaganda different from "have more kids". It's just that people have either left the country or do not want to have kids. Plus a significant portion that remain in Bulgaria and do have kids.

Forcing people into something they do not want is a path to more misery.

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Feeling-Sympathy-879@reddit

Lmao what? People on average couldn't care less about their carbon footprint, and that's supposedly stopped them from having a larger family? No, people just realized that there is more to life than just pumping out children and more importantly, the financial situation is pretty shit across the board. The time when one salary could support a family married couple with 2-3 kids, 2 cars, a dog and a house are long gone.

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Jaylord345@reddit

OH NO, WE'RE DONE

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Even-Bodybuilder-522@reddit

Women rights are to blame too. Now women want to have equal rights, "careers" etc instead of staying at home and having 4-5 each.

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gingergoblin@reddit

Absolutely crazy thing to say

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kruska345@reddit

I assume the majoroty of balkan men would be able to provide for their woman and for their 4 kids without issue if women stayed at home and didnt go to work

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Even-Bodybuilder-522@reddit

In the 90s and early 2000s when the Greek National Debt skyrocketed, the incomes and the household wealth were comparable to those of Central European Countries however the TFR hit a record low of just 1,2 children per women. In the 70's it was like 2,5-3,0. So its not about wealth, its about women neglecting their obligations to the society.

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kruska345@reddit

Yes it is about wealth. In 70s a lot more people in the Balkans lived off of agriculture than today, and having many children is an advantage for agriculture, while its a huge disadvantage for those employed in secondary and tertiary sectors, which nowadays cca 95% of Balkan population are.

And gee, I wonder why women dont quit their jobs to be a breedig cattle for dudes who can barely get by with their own income, let alone provide for a woman and their 5 kids. Why dont they just starve, its for the benefit of our race!!!

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branimir2208@reddit

having many children is an advantage for agriculture,

Its not.

Yes it is about wealth. In 70s a lot more people in the Balkans lived off of agriculture than today,

In that case it should be other way around. People who lived in agriculture lived worse than people in industry.

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kruska345@reddit

Its not

It absolutely is. Kids were workforce from a very young age used to take care of the cattle, to feed the cattle and to work in the crops. Having kids was self suistainable, you have more workforce and then you can have more crops and animals.

In industrial societies children are a burden until they are 18, they have to be financed and tons of money has to be spent on them while they give nothing in return.

People who lived in agriculture lived worse than people in industry

For modern standards sure, they werent able to buy a new iPhone and the hottest car with just milking cows, but they were able to make their own food with just a few hours of work in a day, so they had time, which is also very important for raising kids. In capitalist industrial societies you have to work 8 hours a day to get a small wage so you can survive. I'd say the first option is a lot more suitable for having more kids

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branimir2208@reddit

It absolutely is. Kids were workforce from a very young age used to take care of the cattle, to feed the cattle and to work in the crops.

For a few early years they do not work these chores. Only later they do it. And you forget that they should be fed and care for and when you have small land plot more children is only hurting everybody.

In industrial societies children are a burden until they are 18,

Today yes, but 100 years ago they worked in factories.

they have to be financed and tons of money has to be spent on them while they give nothing in return.

And peasent children need a ton of money.

In capitalist industrial societies you have to work 8 hours a day to get a small wage so you can survive.

So why then people left villages for factories if work was harder in cities? It is a fact that industrial workers had better wages and life than peasents.

hours of work in a day, so they had time,

It depends, they could work those hours during winter but during spring or summer they would work from dawn to dusk.

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casutanta123@reddit

Bro i think agriculture societies are long time gone no offense , you cant say communist Balkans are agriculture societies...

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kruska345@reddit

In the West, for sure. Outside of the West they very much exist.

In Georgia for example 40% of people work in primary sector, 14% in secondary and 46% in tertiary.

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casutanta123@reddit

With all the tecnology i dont know hard to believe but maybe true

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floegl@reddit

He doesn't even have kids. He's just a dumb incel who thinks all his problems were caused by women having a life other than serving him around the clock.

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itstimetotwerk@reddit

Crazy theory…the balkans don’t have low birth rates they just have high emigration rates due to high corruption. We are more religious than Western Europeans, we are more family oriented, less educated (sadly), more sexist (unfortunately) and believe more in the colective, if you look at our birth rates abroad you’d be surprised. We are no Germans lol we are just corrupt. People don’t just have kids because they gotta keep the culture going…people have kids so their kids can have a good life, in a safe country, somewhere that gives them good education and opportunities…everyone wants the best for their kids and honestly the balkans is NOT the best. Stop blaming people, blame governments, they are hired to make OUR lives better

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floegl@reddit

It's a success as far as I'm concerned. There are more things in life other than breeding like rabbits. People want to live their lives as well. Also, this means that whoever is having kids has a lot more time and money to invest in their future. Quality is always better than quantity.

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BishoxX@reddit

So you are looking forward to a major economic collapse due to an aging population , and slowly shrinking population unless something changes ?

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Sanguine_Caesar@reddit

You could easily avoid a demographic collapse through immigration, but people seem to think immigrants are the devil incarnate so they will do everything to stop them from coming, all while simultaneously packing their bags for Germany.

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AndreiTatescu@reddit

So you think the solution is to become new Nepal? Why even bother being Croatian anymore if that is the case?

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Sanguine_Caesar@reddit

Living beside Nepalese people doesn't impede my ability to practice my Croatian culture. Why should I care about the cultures of my neighbours if they're not hurting anyone?

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3acid122@reddit

for the moment, a small amount of people who are not croatian living amongst you does not impede upon the ability to practice your culture, correct. but let me tell you something.

i grew up in london in an area where seeing a fully english person was genuinely rare, everyone practiced their own religion/culture, spoke their own language at home and even outside unless interacting with someone who was not from their country. never for a moment did i ever really think about 'english' culture and nobody would ever even think of introducing themselves as 'british' only the country where their parents were from.

now where am i going with this? well thirty years prior it was a majority english area where everyone had a very similar mindset to yours currently, and im sure they all followed this same rhetoric. until they were in their 50s walking down the highstreet surrounded by people speaking arabic, various african languages, urdu and could not hear a single english word.

but be quick to dismiss this, it is completely unlikely to occur and its not happening.

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Sanguine_Caesar@reddit

You really think multiculturalism is supposed to scare someone from the diaspora? How pathetic do you have to be to find this scary? Is your culture so weak that it can't survive existing alongside others? If so then I seriously pity you: it must be tough living with so much insecurity all the time.

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Taylor181200@reddit

He’s right though. I’m unsure how I got here but I am from the USA. Which, despite rhetoric, is the most diverse and welcoming of any country that has ever existed in the history of the world. I live in a southern border state and the immigration (much of it illegal) is unprecedented. Housing costs are at an all-time high in a city that just 8 years ago was VERY affordable, probably the most affordable metropolitan in the entire country. Immigrants, particularly en masse, eat up resources that would otherwise go to citizens and it’s something citizens of the USA are starting to sober up to after decades of having a very careless attitude about it. All that is left are pockets of people “native” to the area (yeah, yeah go off about Native Americans but it was Europeans that wiped the vast majority out) and everywhere you go you hear every language but yours. And the thing about immigrants is that they tend to cluster together and not be as welcoming to those that welcomed them in the first place and overtime (period of decades) you end up a foreigner in your own country.

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Sanguine_Caesar@reddit

I'm sorry to say but you have been played for a fool. Rich conservative elites are the reason your life sucks, not immigrants, and you have sadly fallen for the same divide and conquer rhetoric they always spew to keep us distracted and fighting each other while they run off to the bank.

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Taylor181200@reddit

Rich elites from both sides invite them in and smuggle them in to undercut labor costs domestically. The average person never had a say in what happens. They just stick to party narrative. By the way, my life doesn’t “suck” despite this. I have not been played for a fool. Fools cling to finger pointing and marginalizing groups not based on merit, but based on belief alone. Aka “Rich Conservative elites”. You showed bias there. It’s not a conservative thing to ship them in. It’s rich northern and western liberal elites that want them here because they will never have to suffer the consequences. The USA is big and they are too far away from any issues that would be created because they live in gated communities that are 95% white Americans and have gated vacation homes throughout the globe (also conveniently not typically located in non-white countries). It’s sort of like how liberal Europeans love to shit on Americans about how “xenophobic” we are while we allow in over 1M legal immigrants per year, typically not from Eurocentric countries, while they live in 95% culturally homogenous societies and want to drown North Africans and Arabs.

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BishoxX@reddit

For now yes thats whats kept the west from collapsing faster then they should have.

But birth rates are dropping in 95% of the world, immigrants arent gonna keep dropping forever

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Sanguine_Caesar@reddit

Fair enough, I just have a bone to pick with people who want to shut the door for immigrants when their own population is declining in its growth rate, especially when it comes from us Balkaners who not so long ago were similarly derided in the countries our people have emigrated to.

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floegl@reddit

As opposed to the thriving economies of countries such as Nigeria, Pakistan, Somalia, etc? They have thriving fertility rates, and they are dirt poor going worse per year.

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BishoxX@reddit

If you dont drink water you die.

Doesnr mean if you drink 2x the ammount you will thrive and do amazing.

You need 2.1 fertility rate to keep the same population and be stable.

Poor countries have high fertility rates because they are poor, they arent poor because they have high fertility rates

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floegl@reddit

We don't need a stable population. There aren't enough resources or well-paid jobs as it is. What we should be doing is investing in robotics to help with the more labor-intensive positions instead.

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BishoxX@reddit

What makes you think we dont have enough resources ? We have way more then we need.

Also yes you need a stable or rising population unless you want a massive recession and stagnation where billions will suffer

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floegl@reddit

Then start breeding instead of having debates on reddit. What's stopping you from having 5 kids right now?

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BishoxX@reddit

I got my whole life to have kids. Ill probably have a lot. What is this attack lol, 0 IQ

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floegl@reddit

Lol, so you got 0 kids, and yet you're preaching about it. Talk again once you actually become a parent.

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BishoxX@reddit

What does me having kids have to do with the argument ???

Do you know how to discuss like an adult ?

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floegl@reddit

This is an argument you already used. Unless you have kids, how would you know what sort of resources one needs to raise them? Talk on reddiy is cheap. You sound very young and naive. Get back to me once you even have 1 kid.

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pydry@reddit

If there's two things capitalist media has taught me it's that in ten years there will be an unemployment crisis because of AI and there will also be a chronic shortage of workers because of an aging workforce.

So, there will be both too much work to do and not enough simultaneously. Dont question, just accept.

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BishoxX@reddit

Idk who has told you AI will cause an unemployment crisis.

People have been yelling that technology is gonna cause massive unemployment and it basically never happened, people always benefit from it because of increased productivity and find other jobs

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pydry@reddit

Idk who has told you

One example from the IMF: https://www.bbc.com/news/business-67977967

Another from the economist https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2018/04/24/a-study-finds-nearly-half-of-jobs-are-vulnerable-to-automation

People have been yelling that technology is gonna cause massive unemployment and it basically never happened, people always benefit from it because of increased productivity and find other jobs

Yeah no shit. The function of what the IMF and economist is saying isn't to be accurate, it's to help people feel a little bit less secure in their jobs so they work harder, for less.

When they claim that we're facing the diametrically opposite problem with a retirement crisis and will run out of workers, they're doing it to try and pressure governments to raise the retirement age so they have a larger supply of compliant workers who will work harder, for less.

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BishoxX@reddit

Lmao talking to anti capitalists is always funny.

You guys are all do delusonal it always gives me a nice laugh

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pydry@reddit

I kind of low key like it when people say "hahaha ur rong" while categorically refusing to address any part of the argument.

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BishoxX@reddit

Im sorry im just not gonna argue vs an anti-capitalist on reddit.

Like we would need to argue for 100 messages to discuss anything meaningful, and there is probably 1% chance of you changing your mind.

Its such a fundamentally different view on the world its hard to have a discussion. Also based on my previous interactions, anti-capitalists dont seem to be very talented in the comprehension department and openness to different/changing viewpoints.

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LetopisetuRedditului@reddit

It's a success as far as I'm concerned. There are more things in life other than breeding like rabbits.

Yeah tell that to the non-european people who are gonna replace us culturally and demographically. Becoming a minority in your own country and going extinct is not success.

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Even-Bodybuilder-522@reddit

Then there should be a childlessness taxation, to provide for those that have kids.

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spiruhristodulo@reddit

There should be a tax on every kid born, they are nothing but huge net polluters for the next 18 years.

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ciprian-miles@reddit

you're worried some kid born in the balkans is a net polluter. while probably one city in pakistan is polluting more the world the the whole balkans region. stop being a clown man.

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floegl@reddit

How many kids do you personally have?

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Apprehensive_Air5547@reddit

Bruh, I've been to Spain... I will happily donate my jizz to Spanish birthing persons in need...

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Anonymous_ro@reddit

Most of the world doesn’t have kids anymore, is not surprising the richest continent doesn’t either:

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Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit

this feels fake, in Iraq, it's kinda common to see people have 10 kids.

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Mangogege@reddit

True heroes

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dinustefanmarin@reddit

Recently South Korea has issued even a 0.75 rate, and some analysts consider China is hiding the real one also, which might be below 0.75. It is what it is...

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Anonymous_ro@reddit

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dkb1391@reddit

Where's Africa lmao

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sncks@reddit

No, I don't want it. Since my kid will tell "why did you made me if you were broke AF like a cigan?"

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31_hierophanto@reddit

Spain and Ireland having post-Catholic declines.

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klebermann@reddit

Having kids is the greatest pain in the ass in your whole life. Yes, it is also sweet, etc., but you will lose free movement, time and thought. This is the reason why people just don't want to live like breeding machines any more.

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Sandstorm_221@reddit

It can go down to the abyss as far as I'm concerned. I'd still rather be drawn and quartered than talk to girls for 2 minutes

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Ornery_Beautiful_246@reddit

Bum ass

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Sandstorm_221@reddit

I just wanna sleep man

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17lej@reddit

The figure for Albania and probably other Balkan countries is too low, it takes into account adults who’ve left who would give birth abroad but those births aren’t counted, Albania should be somewhere around 1.9.

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TinyAsianMachine@reddit

But those kids aren't born in Albania so why does that matter?

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17lej@reddit

You don’t understand what I said, the birth rate shown above is calculated involving all Albanian women between a certain age (inc people who emigrated) and only children who are born in Albania. A proper calculation would only consider women living in Albania. The 1.9 figure is only children born in Albania. This is also the same case for Kosovo and probably other countries with high emigration rates.

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