So why do Serbs, Croats, Bosnians, Herzegovinians, Montenegrins, etc. speak the same language?
Posted by One-Cryptographer772@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 180 comments
Let's be clear: they obviously understand each other and communicate without any obstacles.
Sad_Philosopher_3163@reddit
They are completely different languages, as evident from their distinct names for the languages. This high level of intelligibility can be illustrated with the word coffee.
Serbs: Kafa
Croats: Kava
Bosniaks: Kahva
Beni_MK@reddit
Is that really different words with high mutual intelligibility or just different standard written forms of dialectical pronunciations of the same word? Just a thought...
Zandroe_@reddit
I miss Top Lista Nadrealista.
Key-Ocelot-8054@reddit
It is the same language, coming from a Serb.
People just refuse to accept that fact haha
Due_Instruction626@reddit
The answer to your question is "The Vienna literary agreement". In the middle of the 19th century prominent croatian, serbian and slovene writers met in Vienna and conceived what would end up to be a standard official language for South Slavs (Serbo-Croatian). Before that Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and so on spoke different dialects albeit somewhat mutually intelligible. There was no standard language and basically every village or town had their own tongue. They agreed on a common standard language and based it on a southern shtokavian dialect (eastern herzegovinian). That dialect is the basis of modern Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and so on. Shtokavian was spoken mostly in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in some regions of Serbia. In Croatia it was spoken mainly in Slavonia. Kajkavian and Chakavian were more wide spread there. If it wasn't for that agreement maybe modern Croatian would end up to be based on the Zagreb dialect of Kajkavian which would make it much closer to Slovene than to Bosnian/Serbian/Montenegrin. Who knows what would have happened. But yeah that's basically the reason why the languages are as close as they are, that was the foundation and then add to that the fact that all those people lived for 70+ years in a common country. RIP Yugoslavia.
Psychological_Life79@reddit
To me all those slavic languages sound the same as russian, lol
Arbo96al@reddit
I can only separate Polish from other slavic languages, polish people talk fast as fuck like they are speed running every conversation they have
TomatoVEVO@reddit
They also say kurwa in every sentence at least 10 times
greekgirl002@reddit
Easy answer ,because they wanna be smart , saying they speak 4 languages
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
The correct question would be: Why do a people who speak the same language and have the same ancestry identify as different from each other.
Zandroe_@reddit
Great power politics.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
How did great powers play a role in it? Genuinely curious.
Tokmica@reddit
Dont listen to this. We were separated from the middle ages. Mostly because of religion. Croatia (west), Serbia (east)
Zandroe_@reddit
So Nemanjići were Croats?
Tokmica@reddit
Still talking nonsense?
Zandroe_@reddit
Nemanjići were notoriously Catholic before Stefan Nemanja, it's something of an embarrassment to certain Serbian nationalists and caused some Party of Rights figures to consider them Croats. That's nonsense, of course, but it would follow from your criterion.
rakijautd@reddit
There was no Nemanjić dinasty before Stefan Nemanja, the clue is in the name.
Zandroe_@reddit
How would you call Zavida and Tihomir then, proto-Nemanjići? Zavidovići?
(And Stefan Nemanja was likely Catholic himself for the first years of his life.)
rakijautd@reddit
Vukanović which wasn't Nemanjić, since Nemanja was the founder of the dynasty. It is true that Stefan Nemanja was baptized in a Latin rite, as they were living in the area under Roman Catholic jurisdiction, however as we can see by his sons and monk days he followed an Orthodox branch of Christianity. Bare in mind also that the split between the two was far less wide and permanent than it would appear today.
Tokmica@reddit
Nonsence is your way of argumenting. The serbian orthodox church exists from the middle ages. Guess where the orthodox church was leaning more?
Zandroe_@reddit
"Leaning more" =/= "Serbs are Orthodox by definition".
Tokmica@reddit
Sure, the orthodox church always preffered the west over the east
Zandroe_@reddit
At this point I don't think even you know what you're trying to say.
Tokmica@reddit
I am refuting your argument where I show that it has nothing to do with modern "big powers" but a millenia old separation. The same argument "big powers destroyed yugoslavia" is used by communist sympathisers and has nothing to do with common sense
Zandroe_@reddit
Nations don't date back millennia, nations arose around the time of the French Revolution onwards. In the Balkans, this is a process that has not stopped even today (e.g. the Montenegrin nation).
By 1900, the consensus in Croatia was Yugoslav unification. All of the major parties supported this (including the Party of Rights), which obviously didn't sit well with the court in Vienna. Therefore they supported the violent, chauvinist Pure Party of Rights and its paramilitary forces, which were the only ones insisting on a separate Croatia and would "famously" later give rise to the Ustaše.
Tokmica@reddit
I am not talking about nations. Learn to argue
Zandroe_@reddit
Then what are Croats and Serbs, vegetable varieties?
Tokmica@reddit
You can look.at it that way. We are volovsko srce, they are grappolo
Zandroe_@reddit
Austrian and Hungarian governments supported extreme Croatian nationalism (the Pure Party of Rights) to prevent the South Slavic part of the empire from breaking free.
Tokmica@reddit
What are you talking about?
The Rakovica revolt (Croatian: Rakovička buna) was an armed uprising in 1871 led by Croatian politician Eugen Kvaternik against authorities of Austria-Hungary, with the aim of establishing an independent Croatian state at the time when it was part of Austria-Hungary.
Zandroe_@reddit
I'm talking about Frank's Pure Party of Rights from 1905.
skvids@reddit
oh yeah, before that we were identifying as illyrians
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
I see. Thanks.
31_hierophanto@reddit
Because nationalism, that's why.
bayern_16@reddit
Why didn’t the ‘Yugoslavians’ assimilate to one people kind of like Germany did? My wife is Serbian and all six first counsins and brother married ‘’Americans’
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Well, tbh, Austria and Switzerland do exist.
bayern_16@reddit
Czech and Slovak as well. Still doesn’t answer the question. My first actual girlfriend many years ago was Croatian. To me, it was the same food culture language etc. I get the difference now, but is it really that different
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
I meant that Germans also created three countries: Germany, Austria, and Switzerland. They have the same language, same genetics but identify differently.
As for South Slavs, I guess religion had something to do with it.
-Against-All-Gods-@reddit
✝️☦️☪️
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Yep. Except for Montenegrins.
Emotional-Ice-111@reddit
Wrong. Even Montenegrins. 'Cept for them, it's the LACK of faith. Most of them are Tito and communist fanatics. They utterly despise Orthodoxy with a passion.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Really? Never heard of that.
Emotional-Ice-111@reddit
It's become a point of divide. Basically, a Serb in Montenegro goes to Church, while most Montenegrins hate it.
-_star-lord_-@reddit
This is not completely accurate for latest stage of the development of a separate Montenegrin identity in the newer generations of the past decade where a significant minority of self proclaimed Montenegrins attend Serbian Orthodox Chruch and speak Serbian (census 2024).
It is generally correct to say that the development of a separate Montenegrin identity has revolved around a communist, partisan, anti-Chetnik, anti-religious ideology and loyalty to Yugoslav unity and therefore, rejection of downgrading to the ethnic identification rather than unitary ‘Yugoslav’ during the breakup wars. The wars brought with it the economic and cultural downfall and the feelings of nostalgia and despair were quite strong in Cetinje in Montenegro which was one of the biggest communist strongholds in Yugoslavia.
It must be noted that a significant minority of former pro communists became pro Serbs.
Emotional-Ice-111@reddit
It's quite an interesting phenomenon with many intricacies. Way easier to just type a short comment lol
-_star-lord_-@reddit
But yes as a general rule, if Montenegrin is anti-Serb most probably his (great) grandfathers was a partisan or someone who greatly benefited from the communist regime and deeply connected to the communist ideology. I’ve seen this to be true in my family and basically every pro Montenegrin one I’ve ever met.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Had no idea. Thanks for explaining. While, I hate communism and the partisans, I have warmer feelings towards Montenegrins from now on just for being anti-religion.
YeeterKeks@reddit
😴
infiernoverde@reddit
What’s funny is that regardless of the different religions they may have, they will still go up and say; “why isn’t Slovenia and Croatia united”, “why isn’t Montenegro and Serbia united”, “why isn’t North Macedonia and Bulgaria united”, etc.
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
Actually when South Slavs came to Balkans there were two tribes Serbs and Croats according to out history books. Is that bulshit or not don't know.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
I don't much know about it, but I lean towards: It is bs. There might have been two tribes, but they were certainly not called Croat and Serb. Also, genetically the two modern nations seem to be the same.
alpidzonka@reddit
Why would you lean towards that? The source that calls them Croats and Serbs is from the 10th century.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Just read about it, and it seems there are two theories. One who says Croats and Serbs have different ancestry. And the other who says they come from the same tribe.
While there might be some truth in it, I don't know how one would explain them having the same genetics. Even, though, I must admit, I'm not an expert in their genetics either. Do you know how they differ?
alpidzonka@reddit
I don't see how genetics plays a role here, the earliest sources we have mention two tribes. Nothing there implies they need to be genetically very different at all. Plus, it's possible that the areas that are currently majority Slavic in the Balkans were already majority Slavic in the 6th century, before the arrival of the tribes called Serbs and Croats in the 7th century.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Lmao. The sources that mention Serbs and Croats locate them in different regions, far from each other. So, they could not have been the same genetically.
There is zero chance for the regions that are now majority Slavic to have been Slavic in the 6th century since there is archeologic, linguistic, historic, and genetic evidence regarding that.
alpidzonka@reddit
Yeah, no, not even true. De Administrando Imperio says both for Serbs and Croats that their homeland is beyong Hungary, bordering the Franks, and then for Serbs he says bordering White Croatia and for Croats he says bordering White Serbia or Boika.
Yeah, there is, you just don't exactly know it apparently. What I said in my comment is that it's possible, mind you. Now with that, you can check out John V. A. Fine's The Early Medieval Balkans pages 28-31 and 38-41.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
"Procopius also speaks of Slavs living in the vicinity of certain Thracian cities, suggesting that by the middle of the sixth century a certain amount of Slavic settlement (as opposed to raiders coming, raiding, and then returning beyond the Danube) had begun in the Balkans. Procopius confirms his own statements by giving in the course of his works a fairly large number of Slavic place-names in what is now north and east central Yugoslavia (particularly along the Morava and Timok river valleys) and northern Bulgaria. These places were clearly well established by the early 550s when Procopius wrote. Some Slavs were settled as federates in the Balkans (their settlements could be responsible for some of the place-names) and others were already fighting for Justinian in Italy. Thus at least in the northeastern Balkans, south of the Danube, by the middle of the sixth century there already was a fair number of Slavic settlements. Probably, though, this settlement was relatively small-scale (compared to what was to follow), for there is no evidence that regions had lost their Roman character and become slavicized yet.
...Then they returned home across the Danube. The Balkan peninsula was thus open for annual plunder but was not occupied by the Slavs in a major way. Though there was some limited Slavic settlement, much of it could have been colonies of federates with military responsibilities settled by the Byzantines inside the Balkans. "
alpidzonka@reddit
You convieniently ignored the other part where Fine describes two 6th century Slavic settlements in Bosnia recently dug up by archaeologists, and then speculates that since they were secluded it's unlikely they were the only ones. As well as the part where Fine points out that the massive wave of Slavic migration started between 570 and 580, so most likely prior to the arrival of the Serbs and Croats. Anyway, it's like you don't see you're the one going with strong statements here, "zero chance", "absolutely not" etc, whereas I only said it's possible.
In any case, there's (currently, iirc) no solid evidence to believe the majority of Shtokavians carry more descent from the 7th century Serbs and Croats than from the Slavs which we know less about since they didn't form states yet, which came a generation earlier. Which could be the reason why we're not genetically distinct, even if the two tribes were genetically distinct in their original homeland. Which we also have no good reason to believe, since they were recorded as two bordering tribes in DAI, as I pointed out.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
I see no claim of archeologists finding Slavic settlements in Bosnia? Not in those pages. He does talk about when the massive migration started, and with it, he states that they were still on a small scale.
I say zero chance because there have been numerous genetic researches in various Balkan regions recently. They show that until the 13th century, native balkan people are the majority around the Danube. Only afterward do Slavs start becoming the majority.
We're talking about the Danubian region, which is in Northern Balkans and way above where Slavs live today.
I don't think any "he said/she said" comes before genetic proof.
alpidzonka@reddit
I said pages 38-41 as well, this was on page 39.
Can you link what you're referring to?
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10752003/
alpidzonka@reddit
Where does this say what you were claiming exactly? The 13th century isn't even mentioned.
Anyway, I've read through it. It says that it's lacking data on 500-700 CE so it doesn't quite map out the earliest Slavic migrations, but it acknowledges they did begin during the 6th century. It also mentions that perhaps they could have been as massive as they were due to the Justinian plague emptying out the Balkans, which is also what I've heard already elsewhere. And it says because of the number of fully Eastern European individuals from the 8th and 9th centuries, it seems to point to a long process of migration encompassing many generations. And also how the data is skewed toward urban populations, which would typically be less Slavic, I think this is quite relevant as well.
So, can you point me at the paragraph I seem to be missing where it backs up your claims?
I also just want to remind you this whole convo started with you saying you think Serbs and Croats arriving to the Balkans as two distinct tribes is bullshit, a laughable claim, and we've gotten to you sending me on a wild goose chase throught articles from Google Scholar on some unrelated stuff. And even those don't back you up, it's pretty annoying.
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
You are projecting. That's exactly what you did. You sent me a book that said exactly the contrary of what you were claiming.
Look at the dataset. Most of the excavacated sites don't have majorly Slavic DNA until 1000 CE.
The 8th-9th century were mixed populations, so not majorly Slavic. There are numerous other papers backing the same, to add to the source you sent me yourself.
But suit yourself by believing whatever you like.
4gregat@reddit
Im not going to join your argument, but I have to give you my respect for your patience and articulation with the other guy
alpidzonka@reddit
Thank you!
AhmungDihtung@reddit
I mean, Constantine VII called them Croats and Serbs in the 10th century, I don't think he had political reasons to invent those names
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Fair.
Zandroe_@reddit
There were certainly two (probably elite) groups called something like "Serbs" and "Croats", that had a special relationship with the Roman ("Byzantine") empire and came to rule a part of the Balkans after the Slavic migration to the area. But you can't draw a straight line from these to the nationalities "Serbs" and "Croats" which finished forming only in the 20th century, really. For example, the area north of the Gvozd was never called "Croatia" ("Pannonian Croatia" is an invention of nationalist historians).
kruska345@reddit
Becauae Serbo-Croatian was invented after the creation of nations. It was created specifically for a creation of Yugoslavia. Prior to that, Serbian and Croatian werent the same language.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Literary_Agreement
Its pretty wild that so many Croatians and Serbs wrote in this thread, yet no one gave a correct answer
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
Interesting. Didn't know.
According to the article, it seems to be more of a standardization, though.
Were the languages different enough to be able to call them different languages?
kruska345@reddit
Serbian and Croatian as standard languages didnt exist, only Slavic dialects which got standardized in 19th century due to era of nationalism.
For example, in Serbia there is Torlakian dialect, which is a buffer dialect between standard Serbocroatian and Bulgarian
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialects
Or Slavonic-Serbian, which doesnt sound like a Southern Slavic language at all, which was spoken in Vojvodina
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavonic-Serbian
and in Croatia there is Kajkavian dialect which is a buffer dialect between standard Serbocroatian and Slovene.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian
And Chakavian
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian
The most widespread of them was Shtokavian, which was the basis of standardization and it was spoken in the entire Bosnia and in large parts of Croatia and Serbia. Local dialects of Shtokavian differed among each other much more than standard Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian do now
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
I understand. What I'm reading, though, is that those were dialects that were standardized. Not different languages.
kruska345@reddit
Because they got closer to each other through forcing of standardized language and nowadays are mostly mixed with standard Serbocroatian.
If their 19th century forms remained until today, they would definitely be considered different languages, cause the 4 dialects that I cited to you arent intelligible to a speaker of a standardized Serbocroatian. I stuggle to understand modern form of Chakavian and Kajkavian, and they were even more different than standardized language 200 year ago
alpidzonka@reddit
I don't think this is really that uncommon
Odd-Independent7679@reddit
It's not. However, it clarifies OP's confusion better.
SolivagantWalker@reddit
Obviously to have debates duuuuh
Hellcat_28362@reddit
smešan ili smiješan??????
Statakaka@reddit
Смешен
TigreImpossibile@reddit
Smotan
DinoTh3Dinosaur@reddit
Da
4BennyBlanco4@reddit
Are there some differences in spelling and vocabulary like calling English, American and Australian different languages
Zealousideal-Put1250@reddit
Because Serb is their daddy.
Snoo16681@reddit
zbog sira
stepanija@reddit
31_hierophanto@reddit
You must be eating a lot of popcorns right now.
stepanija@reddit
Luckily I love Popcorn
onchobg@reddit
Because of this
Suave_Serb@reddit
It is 100% the same language. Nationalist politics dictate they're "different."
Like how there's a "Montenegrin language." Which doesn't exist. It is just Serbian. But hey, I get to put "Montenegrin" on my CV here in Canada. Thanks, Milo!
CrystaSera@reddit
Cmon, they have 'ś', whoch proved useful when I started learning polish, I mean 95% of people dont use it, but thats beside the point
skvids@reddit
The standardized versions are all controlled by different institutions, so in practice, yeah, they're different languages right now.
Suave_Serb@reddit
Then I guess I don’t speak English, I speak Canadian. Or Australians don’t speak English, but Australian.
HeyVeddy@reddit
Technically french in France and Belgium, or German in Germany and Austria, etc. doesn't make them different languages because of different ruling governments
MysteriousSociety353@reddit
But germans sticks together, balkans trying to kill themselves since forever :D
skvids@reddit
language is far more complex than what you're putting forward here. here's a famous quote on the topic
to get strictly on point: yes. what you're calling german here is actually considered "high german", a language subfamily that includes, among others, standardised germany german, austrian german, swiss german, luxembourgish german, amish "dutch", yiddish, etc.
HeyVeddy@reddit
I know it is, and language is one of my geek topics but forgive me for saying this, you can't just say "the standard versions are controlled by different governments so in practice they're different"
The languages are de jure different but de facto the same is what we should say. Ultimately de jure and de facto is the distinguishing mark here
skvids@reddit
But that is literally the 1 defining factor of what makes a language perceived as such.
language being one of your "geek topics" doesn't change the agreed upon definitions upon which the entire linguistic community operates. no one is arguing serbian and croatian are two completely different languages with no relation. they're arguing for pluricentrism.
HeyVeddy@reddit
My issue is your word "in practice" because speaking two different languages implies not understanding each other, and thus you're implying that a Serbian and a Bosnian can't understand or communicate with each other.
If your perspective is two different languages can communicate and understand each other perfectly (i.e. Canadian English is one language and american English is another language) than fine. But I don't think anybody cares to have that perspective other than the politicians who manage those technicalities.
On the ground, where it is spoken by the people, a person in Pula can speak with a person in niš speaking standard croatian and Serbian. And that's because the formal language is actually stokavian, not Independent Croatian and Serbian etc. the same way the language is English, and not American, Canadian, etc.
skvids@reddit
that... is a VERY weird assumption on your end. there is a reason "mutually intelligible languages" is a term, and they don't even have to be as closely related as BCMS. or are you going to argue that danish, norwegian and swedish are the same language? that dutch and german are? italian, spanish, and portuguese?
correct. i'll do you better: scotland english is also separate from england english, etc. you're literally trying to dismiss established and accepted categorizations because, what, they don't sound right to your "geek interest"? again, there's a reason the concept of mutual intelligibility is a thing.
yes, now you're getting close to my point: slavic languages are a dialect continuum and any language delineation is inherently materially and politically influenced. to reiterate: BCMS is definitely a thing. but so are standard croatian, standard serbian, standard montenegrin and so on. unless, again, you want to argue that kajkavians are actually speaking slovenian and chakavians speak something else entirely.
HeyVeddy@reddit
We know that cakavian and kajkavian are different, and that isn't standard croatian or what is recognized as standard Croatian, it's recognized as kajkavian for example. What you learn in school, and hear in the media, in both Croatia Serbia and Bosnia is basically the same stokavian with ijekavski or ekavski more or less. It's not kajkavian in Serbia for example, it's stokavian in the school and media in all four countries.
Danish Norwegian and swedish all came from their proto language and are intelligible-ish, sure, but so is Macedonian and Slovenian to Bosnian. It's the same thing, some went a direction into a clearly separate language like Macedonian, and some didn't, like Bosnian and Serbian etc.
As for having Scottish English a thing, you're maybe thinking of scots? A separate language from Gaelic and english. But standard English in Scotland is completely the same language as standard English in Canada albeit with their own accent. If you want to consider Canadian English a separate language than I guess the world is full of multilingual speakers without knowing it and we can thank the random politicians who come to power and claim it as a separate language.
If Hercegovina splits into a separate country, I'm not going to recognize Hercegovina as a separate language, I'll recognize it as stokavian. You're free to call it Herzegovian if you'd like to though
skvids@reddit
man idc about this enough to argue with someone who acts like the average person calls their language shtokavian/chakavian/kajkavian
and no i was not thinking of scots, though you could put it in that category as well, even if it's less intelligible with other varieties of english. but fucking hell man. you're the worst language discussion partner i've ever had.
HeyVeddy@reddit
People do say "they speak cakavian" or "kajkavian" there and they do say "this or that place is stokavian".
And no one says "I speak Canadian" or "American" either but it is what it is
skvids@reddit
fucking incredible. how you continue to miss the point so bad is beyond me.
HeyVeddy@reddit
I'm sorry I ruined your day
skvids@reddit
its all good its already coffee and cigarette time so its all forgotten friend
HeyVeddy@reddit
Hell yeah
Comprehensive_Dot174@reddit
The linguists community absolutely does not agree or operate this way
jesushatedbacon@reddit
I love how they used to write smoking notices on cigarette packs in 2 languages and it’s exactly the same thing
Fickle-Message-6143@reddit
In Bosnia it is in 3 languages...
Atsir@reddit
Ya but all of us Serbian hiring managers in Canada know what you’re smoking
Suave_Serb@reddit
They'd understand the game you're playing. Think stupid Canadian hiring managers know? Nah.
Atsir@reddit
As a Serbian hiring manager in Canada… yes
XtrmntVNDmnt@reddit
Actually, the Serbo-Croatian (or whatever you want to call it) language is better divided in Shtokavian, Chakavian, Kaykavian and Torlakian dialects that are not tied to any modern national entities. Modern standardised versions of Serb, Croat, Bosniak and Montenegrin are (the four of them!) based on the Eastern Herzegovinian subdialect of Shtokavian. Which means that the modern standardised language(s) used in the four countries is/are not "an ancestral language" nor a "local variant" but a semi-artificial codified language based on the same dialect.
RT_456@reddit
Because they're all essentially the same people and were once together as one country.
Professional_Fun839@reddit
In 19. Century croatian and serbian intellectual elite wanted to create a standard language - srpskohrvatski because they had plans of making a united nation, at first it was an illyrian idea, later it was an south slav idea - yugoslavia. Today the language and dialect that is most spoken in croatia bosnia serbia and montenegro is standardized srpskohrvatski but its now called hrvatski, srpski, bosanski etc. They are similliar like us english and british english and australian english. Before 19. Ce croatians and serbians spoke in their local dialects wich can be very different one from each other even in same language.
Zandroe_@reddit
Because culturally all of these groups - and you've named a mix of ethnic and regional terms - descend from the same few waves of Slavic migration into the Balkans, and while the south Slavic languages developed into a dialect continuum the same as late vulgar Latin, not enough time has passed for there to be any real unintelligibility between them. Slavic languages are very young.
Psychological_Life79@reddit
Cool, iv never read into the details did they migrate from russia or some other region?
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
The talk that Slavs migareted from russia is empty talk from uneducated nationalistic Serbs. Birth place of Slavs is Ukraine. There are lot of profs for that, the most obvious one is that with any Slavic language, most similarities are with ukrainian. Some of old archaic ukrainian words are same as we and Croatians speak today.
We joined Huns with there battles with romans and after Atila died Huns moved back to Asia and some settled in today's Hungary. If you did ever asked your self, why is Atilla most common male name in Hungary or why there language has no similarities with any other European language, that's the reason.
West Slavs, Poles, Slovak, Czech, Sorbs begon to settle to the west. South Slavs moved more south deep into Roman territory for better climate and better fields.
There is one funny story from our journey south. Romans at borders had small forts with few guards just to keep eye of dangers comming. One of those forts was called maybe by Slavs or by Huns Bech(Beč Serbo-Croatian) and it was near roman town of Vienna. Today only we, Hungarians and Turks (which they picked from us or Hungarians) call Vienna Bech.
Stverghame@reddit
Not a single Serb claims that. If anything, it is a trope used by Albanians when they say "Dirty magjup go back to Russia".
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
Idk what Albanians are saying, I know a lot of public figures claiming we started from Russia downwards.
Stverghame@reddit
Who exactly? I ask a honest question, as I absolutely never heard such a claim
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
Only šešelj said that 6999 times. Like we are immune to dum people.
Stverghame@reddit
I never saw such an insert in which he claimed that, but then again, I am allergic to his voice and presence, so I don't even have the chance to hear it from him.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
That not even worse one. There is deretić with claims we are no Slavs and we where always in Balkans...
Psychological_Life79@reddit
Nice , this theory seems more plausible I guess , Ukrainian steppes also the birthplace of the Cossacks, i have a Cossack friend, very reliable guy.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
We are all very reliable trust me bro 😂
Zandroe_@reddit
No one knows for certain but I think most support a Slavic urheimat around the Pontic Steppe or the Polesye region, so modern Ukraine, Belarus, Poland.
Psychological_Life79@reddit
Cool, before the war there iv visited the black sea and sea of azov and i loved it.belarus not yet lol
peacokk16@reddit
Except Slovene, since the area of nowadys Slovenia (and eastern half of Austria, before Bavarian/Germanic migration) were first subjected to a migration from the north (West Slavic language group) amd around 150 years later from the south (South Slabic language group, which became more dominant then West Slavic)
Zandroe_@reddit
The timeline doesn't make sense, common Slavic doesn't start to disintegrate until around, what, 900? By that time Slovenes would have settled roughly in the current area. In any case, these putative west Slavs haven't left a cultural legacy in modern Slovene.
skvids@reddit
this is literally "slovenia good, balkans bad" nationalist talking points and it is braindead. slavic languages are a dialect continuum which is obvious to anyone who spends even a second looking at anything more than the standardized versions.
unless this person seriously wants to claim that kajkavci, međimurci/prekmurci and slovenian/croatian istrians speak completely different languages.
Darezi@reddit
Once they were all one nation living in the Western Balkan, with different regional dialects and religions!
Then came the big foreign Western powers with their own interests and decided that they needed to divide this nation into different ethnicities since they couldn't have any influence and control over them.
First, they started the division by religion by Catholics, Muslims, and Orthodox. Then later the division started by geographical regions, Slovenians, Croatians, Serbians, Montenegrens, and Macedonians! And the latest division was the new ethnicity the Bosnijaks!
And the people were stupid enough to fall for the division!
Zoning_Law3@reddit
We all speak the same language. We just can’t agree on what to call it.
ClinicalJester@reddit
Yugoslavian, maybe? :)
Sea_Public_5471@reddit
As someone once said to me: “A language is a dialect with an army”, that’s basically it. Used to be the same language but multiple dialects, then we had a war and divided into different countries who all wanted their own proprietary language. The difference is minute, it’s like the many variations of English, i.e. British and American, so everyone (except Slovenians) can understand each other.
CriticalHistoryGreek@reddit
Because they're brothers in denial.
Za bratstvo i jedinstvo, živela Jugoslavija!
MLukaCro@reddit
Politics.
When picking which dialect to base the official language on, both Croatian and Serbian linguists picked the similar dialect to promote Yugoslavism.
Hrevak@reddit
Politics? More like "common sense".
Zandroe_@reddit
The štokavian dialect was used by a majority of Serbs and Croats. Sure, you could have had a "Croatian" derived from kajkavian, if you're comfortable leaving Dalmatia, Slavonia, Lika, Dubrovnik and large areas of "central Croatia" behind.
Actually that would've reduced Croatian even beyond the famous Virovitica-Karlovac-Ogulin-Karlobag line but there you have it.
neljudskiresursi@reddit
Because they are having hard time learning these new ones invented by politicians
Zandroe_@reddit
It's difficult when Serbs invented every term in widespread international use. Damned Serbs!
Zandroe_@reddit
(In case it isn't immediately blindingly obvious, this is sarcasm. Croat nationalists refuse to say fucking "sekretar" or "bataljun" because obviously battalions were invented by that Serb Machiavelli.)
SolivagantWalker@reddit
Jel koristite sada u govoru za samoglasnike i suglasnike nove reci poput otrvorenike i zatvorenike?
Zandroe_@reddit
De ne jebi me, zatvorenik. Moguće da Sanda Šunkica i njen jezični SS to sad guraju, hvala Alahu ja sam u prirodnim znanostima.
AdvancedAd3228@reddit
Hrvatski je tako milozvučan jezik, a onda se odjednom, usred te milozvučnosti, pojave reči kao što su promiDŽBa, svjedoDŽBa, predoDŽBa, draŽBa...
Eto zamisli na italijanskom, na primer, kako bi to zvučalo...
Mama mia, pikolo bambino pornografikoDŽB
MrDilbert@reddit
Nda, i jedemo mljevenike i ostatke bacamo okolokućnim domobranima.
Ornery_Rip_6777@reddit
Okolokucno vodopišalo
neljudskiresursi@reddit
SteffooM@reddit
YUGOSLAVIAAAAA! YUGOSLAVIAAAA!
wtf_romania@reddit
So they can curse each other.
doctorJdre@reddit
I am wondering whole my life why bulgarians speak macedonian
Cristi-DCI@reddit
To frack with the westoids ;-)
Exposian@reddit
because we can say we speak 4 different languages not including english or some other ones when applying abroad.
Stverghame@reddit
We don't
ZiX2000@reddit
Ovo sad kao ne kontaš jel? Pa nemoj nas jebat
Stverghame@reddit
Sorry, I don't understand, could you please speak English?
smrk_tf2@reddit
How yes no.
(kako da ne)
Stverghame@reddit
I only understand other Slavic languages, I don't understand the ones mentioned in the post (other than Serbian)
BabySignificant@reddit
Jas koga lazam
zla_ptica_srece@reddit
https://youtu.be/uyb5SQA4lRg?si=A_lqy1TCUf6VNY2x
Poglavnik_Majmuna01@reddit
They speak the same language because Croatian and Serbian linguists worked together to create that same language from a dialect spoken by both.
alpidzonka@reddit
You mean like how was this language formed, or do you mean what are the arguments that it's one language instead of four? For the latter question, you said it yourself, the main argument is that we understand each other and communicate effortlessly without obstacles.
Minute_Flounder_4709@reddit
Well why can Jordanians understand Syrians who understand Lebanese people who understand Palestinians who understand Iraqis? I don’t know but it’s probably a similar story.
Imaginary_Plastic_53@reddit
From 1918 till 1991 they all lived in same county and speak same official language serbo-croatian or croat-serbian.
Which other language should they speak?
NightZT@reddit
A lot of burgenlandcroats, which migrated about 400 yrs ago to austria, speak a štokavian dialect of croatian and can almost effortlessly understand serbian, bosnian and montenegrin. So even before yugoslavia the ability to understand each other wasn't really based on nationality but on dialect group, which sometimes goes hand in hand with nationality. There are burgenlandcroats for example who speak a kajkavian dialect and it's quite hard for štokavian burgenlandcroats to understand them, also because they tend to make up a lot of weird words and mix in hungarian, german and even a bit romani.
Imaginary_Plastic_53@reddit
True. There is differences in dialects. When two persons from Pirot have a conversation on local dialect average person from rest of Serbia can only ask for translation. :)
Used-Orchid561@reddit
This factually false, we all speak a dialect of Macedonian as we all know Alexander the Great was a Slav
Glittering-Poet-2657@reddit
Could you elaborate on this point?? I think it’s an interesting perspective and I’d love to hear about it.
Used-Orchid561@reddit
I was just making a joke, but if you want to know, we all speak kind of the same language, since all south Slavic languages come from old-church Slavonic (and before that Proto-Slavic). This is the reason why every south Slav could communicate with each-other, even a Bulgarian and a Croat could understand each-other to some extent.
Languages change over time of course, and there are certain dialects, but especially the languages spoken in former Yugoslavia (except Macedonian and Slovenian) are almost identical. It’s like Flemish and Dutch
Imaginary_Plastic_53@reddit
Do not feed trols :)
Ok_Objective_1606@reddit
Because of the common ancestry in Central Europe, moving to the Balkans almost at the same time, centuries of mixing... It's one people with one significant national trait - they can't agree with their own brother, let alone everyone else. I'm surprised there aren't a dozen more states in the Balkans.
LoresVro@reddit
Because they came from common ancestors (including the Sclaveni) who migrated to the Balkans in the 6th century.
No-Fun8026@reddit
6th century was a mass migration of the Slavs, they existed in the Balkans before that
LoresVro@reddit
Some may have been there, of course. Just as some Greeks were in modern day Ukraine.
But just as most Greeks were not from Ukraine, so were most Slavs not from the Balkans.
Ok_Objective_1606@reddit
Yup, Slavs that were in the Balkans already were mostly in Bulgaria, that's why Bulgarians don't originate from the same ancestors as South Slavs who came from central Europe. Modern day populations of Balkans are however a mix of pre-Roman, Roman, Greek, Slavic... in different proportions.
LoresVro@reddit
Yes of course
MrDilbert@reddit
Ohfofucksake, go read up
kretenizam@reddit
There was a standardization of the language just like every other European country.
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
That's a can of worms you may not want to open
Just_a_spaghetti@reddit
History
Crazy_Button_1730@reddit
Someone just invented the language and it got taught in school.