Biden Allows Ukraine to Strike Russia With Long-Range U.S. Missiles
Posted by Leader_2_light@reddit | PrepperIntel | View on Reddit | 625 comments
Posted by Leader_2_light@reddit | PrepperIntel | View on Reddit | 625 comments
DirkTheSandman@reddit
Now we get to find out if the rumors of Russia withholding Tac Nukes specifically under the condition of no missiles on russian territory is true. Wouldn’t that be a “fun” entrance into the second Trump presidency?
popthestacks@reddit
I love how politicians that know know shit about fuck are playing with lives of all of humanity
SMarseilles@reddit
We’ve been here before with appeasement. Should the world not fight for freedom? Should we just let Russia take Europe and china take all it wants too?
alkbch@reddit
We’re letting Israel take Palestine aren’t we? Why should we treat Russia & China differently?
Thadrach@reddit
Hamas attacked Israel from Palestine.
Ukraine didn't attack Russia.
Pretty obvious difference, unless you're a tankie.
RuggedJoe@reddit
Palestine doesn’t exist. Why won’t Jordan take in Palestinians. It’s a 70% Palestinian country with a Palestinian queen.
alkbch@reddit
Israel has been invading Palestine for over 75 years
Evening_Mushroom_331@reddit
Israel is an ally. Ukraine is an ally. Big difference.
DifficultyExpert9180@reddit
Ukraine is ally to Biden family
Every_Independent136@reddit
They aren't our ally lol. We are literally using their kids lives to waste Russia's money. If china attacked England do you think we'd send them small arms to drag out the war? Or would we end it immediately with some tactical nukes.
alkbch@reddit
So our moral values do not apply to “our allies” ?
Evening_Mushroom_331@reddit
Kill or be killed
Mean-Connection-921@reddit
So let our allies do everything they want to do?
Mean-Connection-921@reddit
Love how politicians find billions of dollars whem it comes to war but no money for child tax credit or decent teacher salaries… Negotiate to end this sh**…
Shoddy_Reality8985@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns_versus_butter_model
This argument is over 100 years old.
Evening_Mushroom_331@reddit
I think people voted for this...to teach a tranny a lesson.
OldShip5648@reddit
They aren’t an ally, they just bribe our politicians to act in their interest above ours. Israeli citizens get universal healthcare and heavily subsidized defense paid for by American tax dollars, and they destabilize the Middle East and drag us into endless meaningless wars.
slinkhussle@reddit
We are letting Russia take Ukraine because we do not give Ukraine the means to win this war.
As much as I laud this late response from Ukraines request, this green light probably won’t allow Ukraine to retake all their stolen territory.
alkbch@reddit
The goal was never to help Ukraine win. The goal has been to help Ukraine fight in order to try and weaken Russia.
slinkhussle@reddit
Russia can be weakened by facilitating Ukraine’s victory
alkbch@reddit
Ukraine never had a chance at victory, not without triggering WW3 anyway.
slinkhussle@reddit
Yeah they did. All of Russia’s ‘red lines’ turned out to be bullshit.
That tired Russian trope of ‘don’t assist Ukraine otherwise ww3 was proven false as soon as Moskva was sunk.
Ukraine has literally invaded Russia and still no nukes.
Russian nukes probably don’t even work.
alkbch@reddit
U.S. red lines are also stepped over, that doesn’t mean the U.S. wouldn’t react eventually.
Russia has more nuclear warheads than any other country. Even if only 1% are still operational, that’s enough to send humanity back a couple centuries.
slinkhussle@reddit
What red lines were set by the USA and then stepped over comrade?
alkbch@reddit
Chemical weapons in Syria. No invasion in Rafah. No major invasion in Rafah. No ground invasion of Lebanon.
These come to mind, I’m sure we can find many more, comrade.
slinkhussle@reddit
Mate, we were talking about Russia starting ww3 because of western assistance to Ukraine to defend itself?
What are you now talking about?
alkbch@reddit
Yes and then we were talking about red lines, you asked me about a time when the U.S. set red lines and didn’t enforce them, I gave you several examples.
Hopefully that will help reach an agreement that both Russia and the U.S. do not always enforce their red lines. That doesn’t mean we should just discard them because sometimes they actually do.
slinkhussle@reddit
We were talking about red lines in the context of Russian threats for nuclear war and how they’ve been proven to be bullshit.
We weren’t talking about anything else.
You’re weird.
alkbch@reddit
Oh no, some dumbass thinks I am weird after I've proved them wrong...
i_know_nothingg101@reddit
For some reason, it’s hard for people to comprehend that.
NeuroAI_sometime@reddit
Nope I would rather be dead than a slave to those evil bastards. Nuke away if needed. Never back down to evil.
LeonTroutskii@reddit
No. We should help Americans who need it and strengthen our country.
DannyBones00@reddit
Does that mean you’re down with passing Universal Healthcare, a national housing act, increasing minimum wage, etc?
Because every single time we try to “make lives better” for Americans, that’s communism.
Helping Ukraine takes under 1% of our military budget. To cripple America’s greatest historical geopolitical rival. Crippling Russia now means my kids don’t have to fight them in 20 years. I’m all for it.
BonVoyPlay@reddit
Russia won't be able to field a military in 20 years. There demographics are among the worst in the world. The population decline will preclude them from being able to do anything but defend whatever borders they can capture in the next decade. Loosing 700K troops hasn't helped at all.
ProgressiveCDN@reddit
Why would Americans be engaged in a direct confrontation with Russia in 20 years? What do you think Russia will be doing in 20 years? Where is the evidence that America will be forced to directly engage Russia in order to protect its direct sovereign territory against a Russian invasion? This whole theory of one domino falling leading to the collapse of western liberal democracy is a fraud, Vietnam proved it was all propaganda.
The only danger to your kids now or in 20 years is if bloodthirsty hawkish people keep pushing and escalating for war.
shableep@reddit
In the last 100 or so years in history, if an authoritarian did not experience a great deal of negative repercussions for invasion then they continued to invade. This was starkly demonstrated when Hitler took the Sudetenland in 1938 - the policy of appeasement and the Munich Agreement only emboldened him to take more territory, leading directly to WWII less than a year later.
The Sudetenland was a region of Czechoslovakia with a large ethnic German population. Hitler claimed he only wanted to unite ethnic Germans (similar to how Putin claims to be "protecting" ethnic Russians). In September 1938, British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain and other European leaders met with Hitler in Munich and agreed to let Germany annex the Sudetenland, believing this would satisfy Hitler's territorial ambitions and maintain peace.
Do you see the parallel here?
The goal of allied countries in the west is to make the invasion of Ukraine similarly debilitating and exceedingly expensive for Russia like Iraq was to the USA. If Russia is emboldened by a massive land grab, the sort of which not seen since WW2, then what is Russia's motivation to stop there? The west thought that Russia might stop at Crimea, and it did not. And Russia continues to escalate their ambitions. To look the other way the same way the US did in WW2, which was a mistake then, would be a mistake now.
ProgressiveCDN@reddit
You're comparing apples to oranges here. Putin is not Hitler. Geopolitical balance isn't what it was in the 1930s. There was no NATO for Hitler to come up against. There were no nuclear weapons. Russia does not have the non-nuclear military capacity to take on NATO.
It is certainly important to learn from history (I have an MA in history). But drawing parallels between such different situations isn't wise. Learning from history would include the decades following the dissolution of the USSR and leading up to the Western backed coup in 2014. There is no precedent to indicate whatsoever that Putin has ambitions of global dominance or conquering continental Europe. Perhaps Russia is not behaving in any way different than America would if an equivalent situation happened along its borders or in its sphere of influence.
Mean-Connection-921@reddit
You are too reasonable for Reddit.
craeftsmith@reddit
A network of allies is the greatest strength someone can build. That's true for prepping and true in geopolitics
Farmall4601958@reddit
So you’re saying we need allies to help financially and with lives … isn’t that what trump wanted ? Instead of the USA spending all the money to fund everything just to prop up the currency ?
SMarseilles@reddit
How socialist of you
BoxProfessional6987@reddit
So how will surplus APCs help Americans?
Moneyley@reddit
Downvote because we've had decades to do it and haven't. Sending weapons elsewhere doesn't prevent our lives from improving any more than they have in the last 30 years
shadowcat999@reddit
Yes. We can do that by securing strategic resources beyond our borders. Because it's 2024, not 1000 BC and national strategic and economic interests go beyond national borders. We get the vast majority of our rare earth gasses for semi conductor from Ukraine. Might be kind important in 2024 idk.
Longjumping_Sir5691@reddit
Fuck Russia.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
Kind of like when Obama did nothing when Russia took Crimea?
SMarseilles@reddit
Do you think because I support Ukraine then I must be against trump and for Obama?
Is an American unable to call out their political leaders?
I am against inaction against Russias aggression, whenever and wherever it occurs. Now, what value do you add to the discourse?
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
So are you saying you’re not anti-Trump who is going to help us avoid World War 3 and stop all the bloodshed and billions in endless funding?
SMarseilles@reddit
I'm saying that helping Ukraine is not a trump, or dem or republican issue.
Also, ww3 isn't going to happen whether trump or Harris won the election. That's what nukes are there for. Neither side can invade/destroy the other while having nukes. That doesn't mean Russia can't be defeated and pushed back to Russia with the Wests help.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
So why is Europe pretty well sitting it out depending on US to fund
SMarseilles@reddit
You haven't been paying attention.
Europe has spent more and committed more still than US on funding Ukraine.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
This is an Anti-Trump article form god knows who
SMarseilles@reddit
Donald trump is mentioned once and in the context of uncertain times for future funding. How is that anti-trump when Trump himself has said he wouldn't fund Ukraine?
He actively withheld funding during his first term for the famous 'quid pro quo' and people anticipate Trump will not be favourable towards Ukraine because we have actively listened to him.
But I see you didn't dispute the facts, and certainly didn't provide any source to say the opposite.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
When did things shift and you Dems become the war machine?Trump will end the bloodshed and endless spending.Biden not once pursued a peaceful solution with both sides he only pledged billions to keep up the killing.
SMarseilles@reddit
I haven't established my political affiliation, only my support for Ukraine. There are many republicans, even people who Trump wants to put in his cabinet, that support Ukraine or are at least anti-russian. Enough Republicans voted for funding Ukraine to pass the bills. So why am I automatically a Democrat just because I support Ukraine?
But your assertion, and this is the 2nd time you've said it, that "Trump will end the bloodshed". You don't care about Ukrainians, let's not pretend about that. You follow Trump blindly and will say whatever in support of his opinions. And if Trump were to do the opposite and support Ukraine when he takes office, you would find a way to spin it to continue your own support for Trump. Thats it. That's who you are.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
We all support the Ukraine including President Trump you haven’t cornered the market we have two different visions you’re is a war torn country with countless dead bodies my and President Trumps vision peace and an end
SMarseilles@reddit
No it isn't. It's to stop the funding. That's your goal. And the result of that isn't going to be peace. It's going to be an emboldened and imperialist Russia.
My "vision" is to provide Ukraine and Ukrainians with the support to do what /they/ want to do. And that's continue to fight for their freedom.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
Easy for you to say you’re not sitting in a war torn country waiting on family members to die can you say Vietnam?
SMarseilles@reddit
What are you even talking about? I'm telling you that I support Ukraine doing what THEY want to do. If they want to stop fighting then they can decide that. If they want to continue fighting then I support them and want to continue funding them on that.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
You and President Trump believe in continued support for the Ukraine. You are both on the same page.
SMarseilles@reddit
That link doesn't support your statement.
here is trump saying he'll solve that war while being president elect, and at the same time suggesting he'll remove sanctions on Russia.
here is trump blackmailing Ukraine while in office
Trumps advisors plan to remove funding if Ukraine doesn't enter negotiations
The intention of solving this under a Trump presidency is not a peace plan. It's an end to the current conflict only. Russia will walk away with new territory and a hold on future claims, just waiting to build up. That's not peace. Again, you and Trump don't care about the deaths, you care about the money. That's it. And you will gift the entirety of Ukraine to Russia, and more, if they want it. And you call that peace?
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
Who doesn’t want negotiations when people are dying that’s ridiculous look just take your anti-Trump rhetoric and give it to someone else
SMarseilles@reddit
You've literally just proved my point. Ukraine wants peace. But they want it by removing Russia from Ukraine. They don't want it by giving Russia Ukrainian territory.
Stop hiding behind protecting people when they themselves want to fight for their own freedom. No one thinks trump is protecting people by giving Russia Ukraine, or Moldova, or the Baltics, or Europe.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
Like Obama did and also President Bush gave Georgia, so hopefully Trump can do better than these two bums
SMarseilles@reddit
Trump will give Ukrainian territory to Russia.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
Do you remember the Cuban missile crisis the Ukraine join NATO would be the same situation
SMarseilles@reddit
No it wouldn't.
The same situation would be Ukraine hosting nuclear missiles from the US. Not that another country joins a defence pact.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
It’s exactly the same. It gives the UN and us the right to put missiles on Putin’s border.
SMarseilles@reddit
It's not the same. Ukraine would have to agree, and not just be a part of NATO and be forced. It also didn't preclude it from them today.
And as you should know, that has been possible since 2004 when the Balkans, you know, those countries right next to Moscow and St Petersburg, joined NATO.
Going further back, it's been possible since 1999, Poland borders Kaliningrad. But let's not forget that Finland is now in NATO. But keep on comparing Ukraine to the Cuban missile crisis.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
So here is your solution keep upping the ante, providing more and more weapons to fight Russia until they decide to retaliate what a plan
SMarseilles@reddit
Or. Now I know it seems far fetched to you, but Russia just pulls back to Russia.
That's all that Ukraine is asking for. Help to push Russia out of Ukraine. Where it has exactly no business.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
The biggest problem is Putin still considers the Ukraine, part of Russia in his mind, and a lot of the people in the Ukraine still consider the Ukraine part of Russia there are a lot of people in Ukraine that identify as Russians
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
He cannot do that are you kidding me Biden is giving the Ukrainians long-range missiles as we speak, trying to invoke a world war by indirectly fighting Russia you forget all the circumstances that led up to this conflict and how avoidable it was Putin did not want NATO in the Ukraine, because that would give them permission to put missiles right at his border we had at one time over 20 bio weapon labs located in the Ukraine that shouldn’t have been there the Russians inside the Ukraine have been fighting a Ukrainian task force since around 2016 however, Ukraine is number one in the world for white supremacist. It was voted one of the top five countries in the world for money laundering we all know about the Bidens dirty dealings with the Ukraine so it’s really a mess. I’m hoping President Trump can bring it to an end since Joe Biden didn’t even try to negotiate a cease-fire. He just wanted to pump more money into the Ukraine handover fist.
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
And I’ll bet you are seeking a cease-fire in the Middle East of course with Israel against the terrorist
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/11/18/opinion-evidence-indicates-trump-will-support-ukraine/76293638007/
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/11/18/opinion-evidence-indicates-trump-will-support-ukraine/76293638007/
rg4rg@reddit
Why are the Islamic countries around Palestine allowing them to be killed? Somewhere in the same neighborhood of it’s not really our problem right now/if someone else pays to stop it then we don’t have to.
SteezeIrwin5@reddit
Cool, American, exercise your right to sign up for the military so you can help fight
SMarseilles@reddit
So... Still nothing?
SteezeIrwin5@reddit
Because we are moving closer and closer to becoming active participants. We are also playing with fast and loose with potential nuclear warfare. It easy to say let’s supply money until you have to get your hands dirty.
SMarseilles@reddit
No we aren't. Providing weapons is not active participation. And continuing to provide weapons is not changing that.
SteezeIrwin5@reddit
I didn’t say we are actively participating. I said we are moving closer to it. Ukrainians using weapons in ways that Russia has deemed as US involvement is moving us closer. This is not deniable.
SMarseilles@reddit
It is deniable. Given that we gave Ukraine weapons and then put restrictions on them in the first place is why Putin's red lines have been crossed so many times, despite their ultimatums.
Just because Russia says something, doesn't make it true.
SteezeIrwin5@reddit
Do you seriously not think the continual provocation of a nation with nuclear capabilities is not leading us closer to nuclear war or war in general? Also who said anything about believing everything Russia says?
SMarseilles@reddit
What do you think is more likely?
Total destruction of the world, or Russia pushed back to Russia.
Those are the options we're talking about. Do you honestly think that Russia is going to start a nuclear war because it is kicked out of another country, not by us or NATO, but by the country it is invading, just because they are using our weapons.
Did the US launch a nuclear attack on Russia or China during the Vietnam or Korean wars when they sent equipment, troops and pilots to actually kill Americans? No.
SteezeIrwin5@reddit
SMarseilles@reddit
I disagree. We look to history to learn from it and inform us.
I don't think providing weapons to push Russia out of Ukraine will lead to nuclear war.
It would be the end for Russia if it did, and Putin knows that. And Putin doesn't want that.
SteezeIrwin5@reddit
Looking to history and learning from it is important but very few situations are the same. I would argue America is actually a poor example of learning from its history. We continually provide weapons and fund proxy wars with really poor outcomes. Haiti and the Mid East are prime recent examples. I don’t know if this war will lead to a nuclear outcome but I think we are getting closer the longer this thing drags on. Obviously Putin doesn’t want the end of Russia, but backing him into a corner, crashing his economy may not be the smartest thing. This shit is not our war. I am extremely tired of our bottomless budget for warfare but our incapacity to fund proper education and infrastructure at home (or abroad after our destruction for that matter).
LeonTroutskii@reddit
NATO is the aggressor. When you take in a state on Russia’s border after they told you they’ll go to war for doing said thing, you started the war when you did said thing. Don’t get me wrong, Russia wanted to do it anyway, but we gave them an excuse. If they made an alliance with Mexico…. We’d be in Mexico rn.
crossdl@reddit
None. That's not the point of guys like him. Best to just leave them behind.
VeterinarianFresh619@reddit
They are just Russian/chinese/north Korean bots.
Comar31@reddit
I hate guys like that. Making everything left/right, maga/woke
SnooBananas37@reddit
And now Russia is trying to make more of Ukraine. Where will it stop? When someone stops them.
Crimea also is a different story. Ukraine was not ready to resist back in 2014, and collapsed quickly. Even if Obama wanted to support Ukraine, Ukraine wasn't in any position to retake Crimea, and with the "ambiguity" of the war in the Donbas taking large steps for a comparatively small and contained war was politically difficult if not impossible to justify.
Ukraine was in a position to resist in 2022, and had Biden and Obama swapped when their respective terms were, we likely would have seen Obama supporting Ukraine and comparative Biden inaction. It is obvious that Putin expected a repeat of 2014, but was sorely mistaken.
RelativeJob141@reddit
And where the fuck is Germany, France and England? Why is it up to us? Fuck them. Keep our children home. Fix our infrastructure. Pay our health care and education. The fucking Europeans have been laying back letting us spend our money and blood. It's their continent. Let them fix it.
SnooBananas37@reddit
Because Germany, France, and England have a combined GDP of 10.8 trillion. That's 1/3 of the US's, or roughly equivalent to the GDPs of California, Texas, New York, Florida, and Illinois. They have been helping, but they just don't have the resources to support Ukraine on their own.
They are home. It's the Ukrainian men, women, and children that are doing the fighting and dying, the least we could do is give them what they need.
Sadly, decades old military equipment that has been collecting dust and sitting in warehouses and is due for replacing can't help with those things. You can't use a Bradley to build a bridge, or an ATACMS missile to care for the sick. The majority of the equipment given to Ukraine is our old stock that soon wouldn't even be good to see to our own defense.
Europe is rearming at an unprecedented scale. And again not a drop of our blood has been spilled in Ukraine.
Flipfivefive@reddit
Fucking traitor
StudioAmbitious2847@reddit
Obama did betray us but we kept him and Harris out of the Whitehouse so we’re good
hike_me@reddit
After the Bush administration’s adventures in Afghanistan and Iraq, American people had little interest in getting involved in Ukraine at the time
Albine2@reddit
Why does the US have to be involved in the war. This is essentially Europe's war let them take the lead not the idiot Joe
SMarseilles@reddit
If by involved you mean providing weapons, there are many reasons to be involved. 1) weaken your enemy, 2) help keep your allies secure (if Europe falls that weakens you), 3) stability in Europe is important for the world economy (that directly affects your wallet), etc, etc
As for who 'takes the lead', Europe is already spending more and has additional unspent committed funds almost as much as the entire commitments America has made. They are already taking the lead.
Albine2@reddit
We spent too much money there already most of it is unaccounted for 35 trillion in debt time Europe ponies up the money, this directly affects them. Rich Uncle Sam is cutting them off, time for Europe to wake up and stand on their two feet
SMarseilles@reddit
Did you even read the link I sent. It shows Europe is already paying more to fund Ukraine than the US. It also shows that unspent committed funds put Europe at around double the US when considering uncommitted funds.
Albine2@reddit
This is a European issue not ours. interesting Europe buys oil from Russia then supports Ukraine and wants the US to support Ukraine as well while they fund the war by buying their oil. Hmmm who's zooming who?
SMarseilles@reddit
It's a world issue, not a European issue.
If you want it to be a resurgent Europe's issue, that won't land well in MAGAs America.
Albine2@reddit
World issue really? You mean Russia China Iran and North Korea! Look what Dimenita Joe- Harris has got "the world" into?
SMarseilles@reddit
Certainly someone is demented in this conversation...
Albine2@reddit
Yes, please look into the mirror
Albine2@reddit
Yeah right what's a billion dollars of unaccountable money, it not like our schools or border could use it.
Riddle me this why do we send 800 billion to secure Ukraine and we can't even secure our own border?? Let's secure ours first!
SMarseilles@reddit
Ukraine would live 800b, but only 80 has been sent.
Albine2@reddit
Wow you sound like MSLSD and communists news network. Even Democrats vetoed that bill! It wasn't a security bill it was an amisty bill! To allow 3 million illegals into the country each year
Draiko@reddit
Because Putin has been trying to expand since he got in office.... Georgia, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, dissent in Moldova (Transnistria)... he won't stop unless WE stop him for good.
The US will help the EU do it quickly so we can get back to business as usual.
The alternative is risking another world war.
MachineLearned420@reddit
Agreed
Every_Independent136@reddit
Lol wat. Fight for freedom? How does Russia keep the world in a prison? Russia has a smaller economy than Texas, quality of life is way higher in basically all of Europe. Israel has a super high gdp
Super interesting you think Russia is some ultra powerful oppressor and the world is living under Russias boot or something
SMarseilles@reddit
I'm not sure how you think I said the world is living under Russia's boot. Go back and read it and maybe you'll start to comprehend.
Every_Independent136@reddit
"should the world not fight for freedom". America isn't fighting for freedom. Europe isn't fighting for freedom. Russia is fighting for freedom from nato lol
SMarseilles@reddit
Russia has the world's most nuclear warheads. It doesn't need to fight for freedom from NATO. Why is it you think there has been no war with Russia since nuclear weapons first appeared? It's not because we all liked each other.
Every_Independent136@reddit
"Russia's official 2022 military budget is expected to be 4.7 trillion rubles ($75bn)"
"The United States spent $916 billion on its military in 2023"
Ahh yes, the all mighty Russian military, able to hold the world at bay with a budget 12x smaller than the US. The Russians are so mighty and smart, there is nothing the world can do to gain freedom from Russia
SMarseilles@reddit
I'm really finding it hard how you think I'm saying that Russia is oppressing the whole world or the whole world is fighting for its own freedom from Russia given the topic in this thread.
Maybe there's just something wrong with your brain.
Every_Independent136@reddit
"should the world not fight for freedom"
SMarseilles@reddit
That doesn't say the world is actively fighting for its freedom. It's a statement that says the world should fight for freedom. That we, collectively, should band together and stand against imperialism.
I don't know why I have to explain that to you. Is it because its not a direct statement and is posed as a challenge against people who would roll over or people who would abandon their friends and allies? Reading comprehension is a problem, I agree. But it's not that hard to understand.
Every_Independent136@reddit
NATO is the imperialists... Ukraine was never America's ally lol. Only a few years ago it was known as the most corrupt nation in Europe that was run by Russian oligarchs
SMarseilles@reddit
Except the comparison is voluntary Vs involuntary. I know which 1 I prefer.
IowaGuy91@reddit
NATO countries are the red line. Russia CANT invade any nato country. There is no comparison to ww2 now that we have MAD.
SMarseilles@reddit
Mutually assured destruction doesn't mean Russia can't be defeated. The war in Ukraine is about sending Russia back to Russia, not about destroying the state. After all, Russia sent equipment and pilots and crew during both the Korean and Vietnam war that took direct action against the US. Defeating the US in those countries was the intention, not nuking them. And there are no pilots or crews operating any of the equipment in Ukraine by any NATO country. Only equipment is being supplied.
IowaGuy91@reddit
Then why mention appeasement. You brought it up like ukraine falling would mean putin in paris.
SMarseilles@reddit
Because Georgia, Moldova. Because Taiwan, South Korea.
It's not just NATO countries. It's any country that is considered or aligned with the West. During the run up to ww2 Hitler annexed Austria, Sudetenland then the rest of Czechoslovakia before finally starting ww2 by invading Poland.
In 2008 Russia took South Ossetia and Abkhazia. In 2014 Russia took Crimea and parts of Eastern Ukraine. In 2022 Russia tried to take the rest of Ukraine. We are already dealing with the consequences of appeasement and if we don't act accordingly, Russia, China and NK might very well take advantage of that.
IowaGuy91@reddit
Ukraine isn't aligned with the west. It just doesn't want to be russian. They are an insanely corrupt, ex soviet state.
Once this war is over either by truce or russian victory, energy prices plummet and the economy around the world will improve.
This war started due to ethnic russians in eastern Ukraine fighting a civil war and there were literal nazi Ukrainian units fighting against them.
A truce needs to be made where all ethnic russian areas of ukraine are ceeded to russia in exchange for Ukrainian nato artical 5 protection, but no membership.
Red lines drawn.
That is victory for both sides.
SMarseilles@reddit
Ukraine in 2014 protested about their alignment with, and political meddling by, Russia and aspire to be in the EU. That's the whole reason Crimes and eastern Ukraine was invaded back then.
Emergency-Mud-2533@reddit
Russia is incapable of taking ukraine, let alone europe.
Random balkans war is random balkans war
No one gave a shit about the last 6 of them.
SMarseilles@reddit
Russia is incapable of taking Ukraine while it is being supported. Fixed that for you.
Uhhhhhhhh-Nope@reddit
Okay appeasement is WAYYY different when we’re talking about the possibility of nukes being dropped while an actual hot war is going on.
SMarseilles@reddit
Ah, so... Just let Russia do what it wants? Let it take Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova? How about the baltics and then Poland? Where does it stop? The whole of Europe?
haqglo11@reddit
There’s a long fucking list of dictators and despots we’ve appeased and ignored. We don’t need to risk ending humanity over something not in our strategic interest If you need the list, I’m happy to help. Look in the Levant for starters.
SnooBananas37@reddit
NATO was hanging on by a thread thanks to decades of peace in Europe, the cost in blood and treasure of the GWoT, and Trump's bellicose posturing.
Now Finland and Sweden have joined, and inshallah Ukraine will one day as well. Maintaining NATO is in our strategic interest, and dropping the ball in Ukraine will forever sour the relationship between the US and Europe.
haqglo11@reddit
The Euros will slowly figure out that they are self immolating as American vassals and will be forced to chart a new course for survival. I don’t know what that means or looks like, but the post war security structure has passed its expiry date. European voices vacillated between federalization and break up. AFD in Germany wants a different path. Some of the central euros look at things through a different lens.
Another perspective is that we will have a turning and our future doesn’t look like the NATO dominated past of Russia fixation
SnooBananas37@reddit
Nah
SMarseilles@reddit
The West is in your strategic interest.
65CM@reddit
You don't think they're aware of every possible outcome and the likelihood of each?
_Marat@reddit
They are absolutely not. The government is not all knowing or all powerful, they are just the current collection of idiots that were able to raise the most money last election cycle, and those people’s appointees.
65CM@reddit
suuuure
popthestacks@reddit
lol fuck no they’re just guessing
Sure they get more facts than the average person but they don’t really know what’s inside putins head or what he’ll do next
baleia_azul@reddit
Shit the fuck up ruSSian
Inner_West9898@reddit
Just waiting for the first president to start reading their speech off a teleprompter with "know know shit about fuck". 😆
Draiko@reddit
If Russia uses even a single nuke of any kind, even Trump won't be able to stop the US and rest of the west from coming down on Putin like a ton of bricks.
pleydell15@reddit
The U.S. and NATO have for years made no secret that, if Russia uses even a tactical nuke the base, ship or sun they launch it from will be pulverized by conventional weapons and conventional weapons will be used to ensure that Russia has no ability to project force beyond its borders.
VacationBorn8659@reddit
That's a textbook tutorial on how to invite a Russian nuclear response.
OneNormalHuman@reddit
So your concern that the NATO response to Russia using a nuclear weapon might cause Russia to use a nuclear weapon?
shryke12@reddit
My understanding is NATOs purpose is to defend NATO countries. If that nuke is used outside NATO, what does it have to do with NATO? Just curious here. Are we going to escalate to ww3 even for non NATO countries?
Druid_High_Priest@reddit
Domesday...
Launch everything. So much fallout the world is screwed...
You dont want to push himel to where he pushes that button.
258638@reddit
So just do what he says? Appeasement doesn’t work. Nuclear weapons don’t change that.
In fact letting Russia do whatever it wants without consequences invites more nuclear weapons and risk. Why wouldn’t every country neighboring a nuclear country try to get their own nuclear weapons after seeing that no one will come to their aid if challenged by a nuclear neighbor? A weak response to invasion is not safer. It would invite chaos.
Draiko@reddit
Yup.
intothewoods76@reddit
One thing is for sure, Trump will get blamed for the shit sandwich.
EntrepreneurBehavior@reddit
Kinda how Biden did Afghanistan?
intothewoods76@reddit
Pulling out of Afghanistan was a Trump goal. How the withdrawal was handled was all on Biden.
Mountain_Fig_9253@reddit
Trump was the one who surrendered to the Taliban and then rushed the removal date.
Biden screwed up by trying to honor an agreement made by a previous president, something that was a norm prior to Trump. He was trying to return the country to normalcy but in retrospect he should have refused to honor any damn thing Trump did.
intothewoods76@reddit
I’m going to need a source on your claim Trump surrendered to the Taliban. That’s not accurate.
Biden wasn’t trying to honor anything Trump did, his first day in office he reversed most of Trumps executive orders. That’s just an excuse you tell yourself.
You’re saying Biden knew the plan was bad but went through with it anyways because he wanted to honor Trump? You know how ridiculous that sounds?
Mountain_Fig_9253@reddit
Trump “negotiated” a withdrawal from Afghanistan in Feb 2020. This was delayed from his original plan to do it at camp David on 9 fucking 11 in 2019, but his chief of staff threatened to quit if he brought those terrorists over on 9/11. He made this agree with without coordination with the Afghanistan government and then that fucker released 5000 taliban soldiers without getting anything in return.
https://www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/
Presidents always continued on with foreign policy agreements of the previous administrations. If you have presidents reversing foreign policy agreements that have been signed every 4 years then no country will trust our word.
Trump did just that when he blew up the Iran framework. It was that behavior that Biden was trying to reverse by standing by a horrible decision by Trump. In retrospect that was a mistake and he should have just dumped everything Trump did, but alas that was not to be.
As for domestic EO, those are always fair game. Trump did exactly the same thing when he won in 2016 and reversed numerous EOs that Obama had signed.
intothewoods76@reddit
No mention of Trump surrendering to the Taliban. That claim was simply your biased opinion.
Mountain_Fig_9253@reddit
How exactly would characterize a negotiation where Trump released all the the Taliban prisoners, getting nothing in return, and promising to leave and never come back while excluding the Afghanistan government from the room?
Trump was the architect and author of the US withdrawal from Afghanistan. Biden failed by not fixing Trump’s fuckup but people keep forgetting it was Trump’s timeline and decision to withdraw.
intothewoods76@reddit
I wouldn’t characterize it as surrender.
Biden had the opportunity to set his own timeline and structure. In the end it was his decision and his alone.
Bombing an aid worker and his kids was 100% on Biden.
Mountain_Fig_9253@reddit
Typical MAGA response. “Why didn’t you save us from Trump???”
intothewoods76@reddit
Triggered?
Mountain_Fig_9253@reddit
How is pointing out the truth being “triggered”?
Available-Leg-1421@reddit
No it wasn't, you goofball.
intothewoods76@reddit
There’s only one President at a time. Biden was involved in planning and the timeline. Biden executed the withdrawal, how he handled it was on him.
Available-Leg-1421@reddit
Stop trying to rewrite history. Your brain is rotten.
intothewoods76@reddit
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/politics/biden-overrules-advisers-afghanistan-withdrawal/index.html
loralailoralai@reddit
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/29/frank-mckenzie-doha-agreement-trump-taliban
https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-responsible-afghanistan-withdraw-ex-adviser-1944696
intothewoods76@reddit
It’s finger pointing by the liberal media sure.
Biden assured us the Afghan government would stand, that they had a well trained military.
They’re blaming Trump for negotiating with the Taliban.
Biden also negotiated with the Taliban
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/biden-decide-extending-afghanistan-withdrawal-deadline-g-7-allies-meet-n1277498
Available-Leg-1421@reddit
The plan was baked. It couldn't be changed. It was in writing and signed off. The plan was executed as it was written because that was signed off.
To believe The military "went rogue" and deviated from the plan is stupid.
Some day you will get exhausted from these stupid conversations.
No_Science_3845@reddit
Trump exacerbated the Afghan withdrawal by increased troop withdrawals after he lost the election, specifically to fuck with Biden.
intothewoods76@reddit
Biden could have stopped additional troop withdrawals, temporarily added more Troops, scrapped the plan altogether, pushed back or moved forward the timeline.
There’s only one President at a time there’s only one commander in chief at a time. Biden pushing forward, and how he handled the withdrawal is squarely on his shoulders, there’s nobody else to blame but the commander in chief in how they handle a military operation under their command.
If the Afghan pullout had been an extreme success would your argument be it was Trumps doing?
No_Science_3845@reddit
No, because Trump had already allowed the Taliban to violate the Afghan surrender deal days after. He had failed before he even left office.
intothewoods76@reddit
That happened before the Afghanistan pullout correct?
Are we switching the topic to things that happened before the afghan pullout?
So Biden was simply ineffective at planning based on the new reality? Trump allowed the Taliban to violate a deal and it’s your argument Biden was powerless to do anything? Or his planning couldn’t take that into effect?
If it Trumps fault that means Trump held the power well into the Biden administration, Biden was an ineffective leader unable to successfully execute a withdrawal due to Trump.
No_Science_3845@reddit
In the timeline, Trump surrendered to the Taliban, setting a date for US withdrawal in the Doha Accords. The Taliban immediately violates this deal, yet Trump continues to withdraw troops. After Trump loses the election, he increases troop withdrawals against Pentagon recommendations to increase instability in Afghanistan. Biden gets in office after Afghanistan is already on an irreparable course to collapse.
No, Biden wasn't powerless, and he handled the withdrawal poorly. That doesn't mean the domino's Trump knocked over to exacerbate the withdrawal stopped when Biden took office.
PM_me_your_O_face_@reddit
Not to mention releasing thousands of taliban fighters who quickly overran the country leading up to the withdrawal with not enough troops still in country to do much about it.
intothewoods76@reddit
Why didn’t Biden add more troops to stabilize the transition. Biden also ignored the advice of his generals.
Any Decisions Biden made as President are his, Biden as President is responsible for his decisions. The planning for the withdrawal and execution of the withdrawal were approved by Biden. Biden is responsible.
If the withdrawal had gone well would it have been Trumps doing.
Is Trump the reason we are no longer at war in Afghanistan?
PogTuber@reddit
While I think you're giving too much credit to Trump, in that any withdrawal from Afghanistan was going to fucking suck, I have to admit you're right that Biden fucked it up about 50% worse than it had to be.
intothewoods76@reddit
I’m actually not taking a stance of giving Trump any credit. Simply pointing out that Biden is responsible for his own actions as president. If he didn’t like the planning or how Trump handled the situation it was completely in his power to change direction. He held several planning sessions where he ignored his generals and executed a plan. It went badly.
Then to try to save face the whitehouse put out messaging that they could “strike from over the horizon.” Every talking head picked that up and repeatedly used the phrase. He then executed a strike on an aide worker and his family gathering water and lied about it for a week saying it was a bomb maker. Obviously that “strike from over the horizon” messaging stopped real quick. That was Biden, Trump had nothing to do with that.
Flat_Boysenberry1669@reddit
Not to mention Biden literally supported the war in Afghanistan for decades his insane withdrawal giving the Taliban and defacto china Afghanistans natural resources and strategic location... If trump did that well the media would be acting much differently.
kmack2k@reddit
It was Trump's withdrawal deal lmfao
Oremcouple@reddit
No it wasn't. Trump wanted to keep Bahgram airbase and a small peacekeeping force. There were stipulations to the withdrawal in Trump's plan. Biden made a shit sammich out of the whole thing and just blamed Trump when it all went south
Flat_Boysenberry1669@reddit
No it wasn't Biden scrapped trumps withdrawal and ignored his generals and experts on replacing the plan with a new one.
EntrepreneurBehavior@reddit
Thank you. The only reason withdrawal was so rushed was that Biden had to honor the terrible deal Trump put together.
Longjumping_Sir5691@reddit
Trump IS the shit sandwich!
SaltyCandyMan@reddit
Putin won't do anything until Trump is sworn in. Hopefully this thing can be ended very soon.
Draiko@reddit
If Ukraine does what I think they'll do and targets Russian energy business assets (like refineries), Putin will have to either respond asap or watch his only major revenue stream shrink more and more and more.
Old_Lengthiness3898@reddit
Can you imagine if they got gazprom completely offline. Oil would go to $8 in weeks.
Draiko@reddit
Gasoline would, oil would likely go above $100/barrel.
Abdelsauron@reddit
Spoken like someone who doesn't work for a living.
Draiko@reddit
🙄
Old_Lengthiness3898@reddit
And if Ukraine manages to hit the gas lines supplying China, oh boy it would hit the fan
Codex_Dev@reddit
Biden just finished a meeting with China’s president before making this announcement. You can bet your ass China agreed to do a full embargo as a result of any kind of nuclear weapon used. China doesn’t want to fuck around and get caught in a nuclear exchange between either side.
NATO and Soviet nuclear doctrine was to takeout China regardless if they were involved a nuclear exchange. They would have been too strong to leave standing and would mop up the survivors.
AcadianaTiger92@reddit
So why is everyone here cheering this idiotic escalation on?
DirkTheSandman@reddit
suicidal or libertarians hoping for Fallout IRL. Or both!
OurAngryBadger@reddit
Biden and the entire G20 leaders are in South America right now. The South America that is the safest place to be in a nuclear WW3. Coincidence? I hope.
John_mcgee2@reddit
So fun. Honestly don’t think trump realises he has to either fund Ukraine or watch them build nuclear weapons
Sabre_One@reddit
Why is this a rumor? Ukrainians have been using HIMARS in Russian territory for awhile, they were just not allowed to hit beyond a certain range.
blinkinski@reddit
Putin said that if any such missile will be used from Ukraine, it will mean that the US and its allies entered the war. Because Ukraine, as "they" say, can't use those rockets on their own. NATO military uses military satellites to guide them. So Trump could become the president of a country that is at war.
junk986@reddit
Ukraine is also close their own…device.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
I think it's more likely they would just wait out the two months of pain. You know Trump won't allow this dumb shit Biden is pulling a stunt
DirkTheSandman@reddit
I’m not sure trump will revoke permission tbh. Ukraine already knows they’re on thin ice, if trump threatens to take their missiles away if they continue striking, they might just keep it up anyway, since NATO is already planning on upping support as soon as possible with the expectation that we might pull ours. Ukraine’s losing at the moment, im not sure they’d accept going back if striking the interior proves to be useful.
We’ll see though, Trump is nothing if not capricious.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Trump's already made it clear the war needs to be wrapped up and he's also made it abundantly clear Ukraine is not getting their territory back.
xnotachancex@reddit
Trump getting cucked by Putin is so pathetic.
ventur3@reddit
Don’t think Ukraine cares what Trumps opinion is on when to end the war, and why would they?
lilbittygoddamnman@reddit
Exactly, Ukraine is already balls deep in this war. They're not going to accept anything other than the Russians getting the fuck out of their country.
Glittering-Giraffe58@reddit
Did you seriously ask why Ukraine would care about the U.S. position on the war? Lol
Gratuitous_Insolence@reddit
Because they have no hope of winning and they might want to still have a male population afterwards.
BigManWAGun@reddit
This isn’t going how you hoped it would is it?
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
I've got no idea what you're referring to. I don't hope my comments on Reddit provoke any response in fact I swap accounts about every month.
Rooooben@reddit
I’m just here waiting for Trump to end the war before he took office, like he said. It would be so easy.
Fantastic-Name-@reddit
That makes him sound weak.
DirkTheSandman@reddit
He can tell Zelensky that if he wants. I’m not certain it’ll change his mind lol
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Without material support, Zelensky will be forced to accept peace or get rolled over by Russia.
If he choose to get rolled over by Russia, US will loose all the lucrative reconstruction contracts. So US might change their mind.
The real question is : will zelensky make that bluff. Will the US bite to it ?
RealCalintx@reddit
US Defense Industry will have the final word.
Can Trump make this up in Israel? Prob not in time. I’m calling MAGA’s bluff here.
DirkTheSandman@reddit
Zelensky will until the general opinion of the masses changes. I’m not sure what the demographic split is currently between capitulation for peace, or continuing to resist russia. People do not like russia and russia has proven they have no qualms with forced relocation, looting, and taking children.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
That's my guess too. Way too much sacrifice made to give it up at this point. And I would not want to be an Ukrainian under Russian military occupation...
True_Dimension4344@reddit
Putin could stop the war any minute.
lovetoseeyourpssy@reddit
Do your Russian masters pay well?
Johnny-Unitas@reddit
You're right. Trump will give a blowjob to Putin and then follow orders.
Miserable-Towel2730@reddit
You are a Russian troll
RealCalintx@reddit
Biden just played 4-D chess. Aid to Ukraine is still very popular amongst Americans outside of the Die-Hard MAGA retards.
Trump is in a very bad position to pull out of the aid started by the GOP in 2018 now. But I wouldn’t call Biden finally growing the balls to help our democratic allies “dumb shit”
You’re just capping and coping man.
IndicationFluffy3954@reddit
You think allowing an ally to fairly defend itself is “dumb shit”?
hectorxander@reddit
Glory to Ukraine!
Krusty_Kooch@reddit
Duh that's why they are doing it
DevelopmentFront8654@reddit
It will be blamed on trump no doubt
DiaDeLosMuertos@reddit
I thought it was because Russia would give anti ship missiles to Houthis to strike us Navy ships
DirkTheSandman@reddit
That’s the new thing. I think the original rumor was from last year some time, when Russia was running drills for the tactical weapons. Allegedly the state department hd a long talk with them about it afterward, but i couldn’t find any actual proof of that.
magobblie@reddit
A side will definitely be established
exteriorcrocodileal@reddit
So this seems to be turning into just a reaction thread but here’s my take on this one since this is prepperintel: not as big of a thing as the headlines are making it sound.
The ATACMs is not a cruise missile, its just the original balistic missile that the HIMARS can carry one of versus the six shorter range but much newer GMLRS. The ATACMs are like 1980’s tech and the production lines are long shut down, so these are going to have to be used strategically because they’re not getting any more. They will help with in-theater operations but it’s not going to bringing Moscow to its knees. The thing to keep an eye on would be proper cruise missiles being made available.
Beaglegod@reddit
We have several thousand in stock.
If we gave them even 250 and let them use them with impunity it could significantly alter the course of the war.
DazedDingbat@reddit
What evidence do you have for them cutting through the S400’s/500’s? Because I assure you they can’t. Ukraine fired several of these over Crimea and they were all shot down by these systems a few months ago.
Beaglegod@reddit
https://www.newsweek.com/atacms-russia-s-500-prometheus-attack-1918798
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/06/12/ukrainian-atacms-rockets-are-blowing-up-russias-best-s-400-air-defenses-as-fast-as-the-s-400s-can-deploy-to-crimea/
DazedDingbat@reddit
😂 ok bro. Your source cites a Ukrainian spokesperson who totally haven’t lied in the past. When Ukraine or Russia destroy systems like these, there’s video evidence of it 9/10. Russia posts the videos of them destroying Himars and patriots, Ukraine posts them destroying S300’s and S400’s. The other source cites a journalist who provides no source. You’re just believing what you want to hear.
Beaglegod@reddit
Check out this word cloud made from your profile that was just made in June…
https://i.imgur.com/idJcaBE.jpeg
Hmmm. 🤔
DazedDingbat@reddit
First of all, that’s stupid. Second of all, what point is this made up image supposed to make?
Beaglegod@reddit
Made up image?
https://redditmetis.com/user/DazedDingbat
DazedDingbat@reddit
So according to you, who can’t argue your point on merits, I’m a Russian bot because I like to talk about politics. And specifically Ukraine because it’s an issue I’ve seen first hand. Good job, you got me. Putin pays me 15 rubles per comment.
Beaglegod@reddit
You live in America?
DazedDingbat@reddit
Yeah, and so do 76 million other people fed up with Ukraine.
Beaglegod@reddit
Where?
DazedDingbat@reddit
Bot
Beaglegod@reddit
Boris
DazedDingbat@reddit
So what happened to ATACMS cutting through S400’s? 5/6 were shot down this last time and 1 was damaged and missed the target. Not at all like you were describing.
Beaglegod@reddit
Are you Russian?
BenHarder@reddit
Ukraine isn’t winning against Russia without the help of foreign countries invading Russia as well.
250 missiles isn’t going to turn the tide of the war in Ukraine’s favor. It’s going to be the excuse for Russia to really invade.
Thadrach@reddit
Eh, they e already ramped up as far as they can go, short of WMDs.
BenHarder@reddit
No they aren’t
Mychatbotmakesmecry@reddit
Well I’m convinced. Let’s give Ukraine some cruise missiles. As many as they need.
exteriorcrocodileal@reddit
Well, sounds like UK and France just approved Storm Shadows to be deployed a couple hours ago so we’ll see how that works out
Mychatbotmakesmecry@reddit
I’m erect
blinkinski@reddit
What can go wrong, right?
wisenedwighter@reddit
Wee nuclear war.
FickleRegular1718@reddit
Give Ukraine long range nukes!
Unfair_Holiday_3549@reddit
Why would you drop a nuke on your neighbor? Wouldn't that fallout maybe blow back towards you?
Subbacterium@reddit
I almost down voted this, but they’re in the situation because they gave up their nukes. This isn’t that crazy to me.
Wise-Caterpillar-910@reddit
They didn't have the codes for the nukes iirc.
So really it wasn't a give up a functional weapon kind of situation like it sounds.
FickleRegular1718@reddit
I think it'd be a good move. They can make their own though I'm sure...
sms552@reddit
You need to give the whole story. They gave up their nukes with a promise from the Russians that they would never attack or invade.
cuddly_degenerate@reddit
Honestly, I imagine Ukraine has very active nuclear development right now.
FickleRegular1718@reddit
Yes I'm convinced...
cuddly_degenerate@reddit
They should, if they had 10 nukes or so they could probably halt the war. Not enough to level Russia but getting into "none of us will win" territory.
pf_burner_acct@reddit
This is a political move to hand an incoming administration a complete diplomatic abortion.
I'm confident that backchannel talks with the next administration are happening now and that, despite the best efforts, we will avoid a WW3.
AstralAxis@reddit
Already making excuses for his failures, I see.
pf_burner_acct@reddit
Not excuses. An acknowledgement that it's not done yet, and there's a possibility that it won't get done.
Results matter. Not just talk.
Deeds not words, amigo. Deeds, not words.
bostonguy6@reddit
Based on how Trump has been treated so far by the deep state, this is probably exactly what they’re hoping. Then they will arrest him under the Logan Act.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Agree. Not sure who downvoted.
Enzo-Unversed@reddit
This will have the opposite effect from what the Ukraine supporters want.
chohls@reddit
Ukraine supporters seem to be the ones who most relish any opportunity to send Ukranian soldiers to their deaths.
It all boils down to "The US has to always have the biggest dick on the world stage, even if it is to the detriment of the US, because 'Muricah..."
AstralAxis@reddit
Russian soldiers defecting or being killed must really kill you inside.
They can end it by leaving.
Mychatbotmakesmecry@reddit
Russian scum. You aren’t prepped enough for what’s coming
chohls@reddit
"Anyone I don't like is a Russian bot"
Mychatbotmakesmecry@reddit
It’s not helping that all you Russians bots repeat the same nonsense.
alkbch@reddit
What’s coming?
Mychatbotmakesmecry@reddit
Steel rain
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
It's more of a stunt near as I can tell. Limited to Kursk region.
NotAComplete@reddit
We can only hope.
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
Don’t understand why this thread for an apocalypse prep subreddit is filled with people happy that World War III just started. Putin literally has said that if a NATO country provides long-range missiles to Ukraine, it would mean war with NATO.
It doesn’t matter who is more justified. These kinds of wars have been in the planning for decades, over a century according to who you ask.
_Aporia_@reddit
Really.... This is the reason you think WW3 will start? We're already in it and have been since Crimea. Russia wants war yet everyone wants to blame NATO.
You think Russia wanted to avoid world war when they took Crimea? You think Russia wanted to avoid world war when they invaded Ukraine? You think Russia wanted to avoid war when they took Iranian drones? You think Russia wanted to avoid war when they openly invited 10,000 North Korean soldiers to the front?
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
Do you expect the Russians to do nothing as NATO expands further East every couple years? When Clinton assured Gorbachev NATO wouldn’t go past Germany?
What at would you do if the Russians formed a military alliance with Central and South America, placed a KGB puppet in charge of Mexico, Nd started arming the Mexican army?
The fact that America shares a border with Russia, yet they haven’t put any missiles or armies next to Alaska, says they’re not as war-hungry as the hawks in Washington.
AstralAxis@reddit
Them invading proves a need for NATO.
And yes. I do expect them to do nothing. If Mexico and Brazil form a defensive alliance with provisions that if a country attacks Brazil, the other will defend or vice versa, I wouldn't then go "We just expect the United States to do nothing" and then justify bombing families, schools, and hospitals in Mexico.
That's your logic.
Yes. Do nothing. "Why won't you let me attack you? Stop having alliances." is piss poor logic.
No_Science_3845@reddit
This is so fucking stupid, I love it. You don't even understand how or why this is stupid, which is even more fucking hilarious.
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
Typical Redditor (TM) acts like he’s smarter than everyone. Do enlighten me, please.
No_Science_3845@reddit
Not smarter than everyone, just smarter than anyone who doesn't know that the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991 and Clinton took office in 1993. You know, just incredibly basic and relatively recent history.
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
Yes I got Clinton wrong. I meant to say Secretary of State James Baker.
No_Science_3845@reddit
And you're misremembering the event because there was never a signed agreement stop NATO expansion. Expansion that Russia agreed to in the 90s.
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
I know it wasn’t signed. So legally, nothing is stopping NATO expansion.
All I’m saying, is this: having a growing military alliance right on your doorstep isn’t ideal. Especially if your former proxies are in said alliance.
Russia also has its own problems, regarding geography and aging demographics and what not. They’re desperate, the only explanation for why the war is continuing. In addition, whatever the KGB knows about the CIA and its involvement in Ukraine, such as claims of CIA-backed biological weapons laboratories, are enough to make Russia nervous.
No_Science_3845@reddit
Russia was involved in the same BTRP program they claim was the biolabs hoax. Literally all Russia had to do was not be a shit neighbor and countries wouldn't have been begging to have a nuclear deterrent against them.
Hell, all Russia had to do was not blackmail Ukraine out of the EU in 2013 and they would have had a guaranteed assurance that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO for another 2 decades.
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
Let me make it clear, I don’t see Russia as a saint at all. And, this goes off topic but I feel it necessary to lay down: I believe the end goal, between both sides, is war regardless.
The same faction that controls America, controls Ukraine, and controls Russia. The result is that us cattle get fucked, and are forced to slaughter each other. It’s part of the depopulation agenda.
I trust Vladimir Putin as much as I trust Donald Trump, or Joe Biden, or Larry Fink, or Bill Gates, or Volodymyr Zelenskyy, or Antony Fauci, or Benjamin Netanyahu—that is to say, not at all.
I also believe the entire Cold War played out in a similar way. The Bolsheviks that conquered Russia were backed by American financiers. Nothing has changed. Another World War is about to begin, and it will be horrifying beyond comprehension.
often_says_nice@reddit
Are you saying that, in your hypothetical scenario, it would be justified for the US to invade and annex parts of Mexico? Idk about that one chief
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
If the Russians were turning Mexico into a proxy state, absolutely.
Striper_Cape@reddit
There are more NATO members now than there were 3 years ago.
Wonder why that is.
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
Don’t know what you’re trying to say. Europe sees the writing on the wall. Places like Finland are obviously incentivized to join a military alliance against Russia, especially when America foots the bill. There’s going to be a war between Russia and NATO—they chose NATO, or were selected to choose NATO.
undisclosedusername2@reddit
NATO is a defensive pact, it's not an advancing army. They were literally doing nothing to Russia.
_Aporia_@reddit
Russia didn't move on Poland when they joined NATO in 1999, so what's different about Ukraine? Also Poland and NATO haven't expanded into Russia, so they aren't expanding Eastward as you say or they would be in Moscow... Get out of here Russki troll.
hectorxander@reddit
It is not ww3, it is Cold War 2 the Fascist Boogaloo.
capitan_dipshit@reddit
not-a-dislike-button@reddit
Because it's not logical at all. It's just another partisan political sub like the rest of reddit.
currie-is-an-idiot@reddit
Because Putin is a bluffing coward.
I-heart-java@reddit
It blows my mind how little the average American knows about this: Putin makes empty threats so they can be published in HIS OWN country. He needs to make it look like Russia is being tough, but they are losing a ground war with their neighbor even though the entire Russian military doctrine revolves around fighting a ground war with NATO
The average Russian doesn’t know or care that Russia is losing troops in masse, has barely made any ground while losing all those troops, and is running out of its record setting armour reserve.
Poland alone has amassed enough equipment that they ALONE could devastate Russia in 8-12 months.
They can’t start a war with NATO and also keep fighting in Ukraine, they are losing 10s of thousands of soldiers a month to attrition and can barely handle fighting in Kursk (and yes even with North Korean troops)
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Remember when Germany was going to decimate Russia in just a few months? Oh right you must not read much history.
Poland put up a good fight but then they got their ass beat after Russia got serious about it.
Finally let's not forget or kid ourselves any serious war in this day and age will be fought with nuclear weapons.
I-heart-java@reddit
Read history? Have you been reading the news lately or is being a pro Russia you’re thing?
This ain’t in any way shape or form the same. Like not even remotely.
Russia has sunk 1/2 billions troops into Ukraine, lost not than half its armour, lost 30%+ of their Anti aircraft systems, and again is losing a ground war with a country that has less than half its army, less than 1/8 its military budget and is working with only outdated NATO equipment
You want history? Russia WAS decimated by the Germans in WW2, they lost millions of troops WITH the advantage of winter and home ground. And only fought back the Germans AFTER all that. And the Germans were fighting on THREE fronts at the time.
Here’s some context: Russia is the aggressor this time around, currently gaining almost no ground on average since the war started, is only fighting ONE front and its war economy is now slowly going into a downturn. And you think they are going to get anywhere by opening another front with Poland? The second most heavily armed European state with near 100% NATO hardware?
Sounds like Russia is more of an analogue for Germany in WW2 more than anything.
forkproof2500@reddit
Russia is constantly expanding the territory they occupy though? So how are they losing?
I-heart-java@reddit
At major losses yes Russia has gained a few kilometers on average. At the cost of 1/2 million personnel….
They were supposed to be steam rolling Ukraine in days and weeks lmao
forkproof2500@reddit
Oh wow, a few kilometers? Take a look at the map from the beginning of this year and now.
Plus the whole half a million men thing is just Ukrainian sources, who conveniently leave out their own losses. Independent sources have Russian losses at much less than that.
I-heart-java@reddit
They were supposed to be steam rolling Ukraine IN WEEKS
It’s been 2 years
They were supposed to be steam rolling Ukraine IN WEEKS
It’s been 2 years
They were supposed to be steam rolling Ukraine IN WEEKS, it’s been 2 years
They are losing.
forkproof2500@reddit
And they would have done if they hadn't stupidly stopped after Crimea in 2014. After the coup the West went all in on arming Ukraine. Nobody had any illusions that the biggest army in Europe would just give up in 2 weeks, regardless of whatever people said beforehand.
st0j@reddit
Losses are big on both sides. Ukranians throwing reserves after reserves to hold Kursk at all costs while the eastern front collapses. Where does this claim of days to weeks come from? It would've been months at best case scenario.
I-heart-java@reddit
That claim was russias own claim. https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks/
And don’t forgot Russia had 10x the hardware, budget and more soldiers. Ukraine should have been under Russian control by now if they were competent.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
You lost me in one half billions troops.
Russia isn't planning to fight Poland far as I know I never said that. They're not planning to fight any NATO country.
Ukraine is fully mobilized and fighting it maximum capacity with all Western support.
Russia is not fully mobilized. And they are not fighting at maximum capacity, that would involve nuclear strikes on major decision-making centers within Ukraine.
I guess it could be argued Ukraine also isn't fighting at Max capacity due to the different limitations but regardless they don't have nuclear weapons.
I-heart-java@reddit
Getting lost in a typo is no surprise.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-war-troops-losses-1985722
https://www.newsweek.com/russian-losses-ukraine-break-grim-record-two-days-row-1984238
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html
“Not fully mobilized” - so there’s plans to lose another half milly in the next 12 months?
“Shit best out of them” - Ukraine basically has a loss/kill ratio of 1:3+
It sad you don’t know how the history applies or what context this “loss” for Ukraine is. People like you are the reason authoritarians take over, you cower when the fight isn’t even at your door.
Russia was supposed to steam roll them in days
And they could barely get past the Dnipro two years later. Oh and losing the naval battle with a country without a navy.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
I can see your deep into Western propaganda so there's just no point. Obviously Russia isn't fully mobilized and isn't using full capacities like a WWII or WWIII scenario
Propaganda aside do you not agree the war is going to end fairly shortly with Russia getting the territory they wanted?
Are you going to call it a victory because all of Ukraine wasn't captured even though that wasn't the original goal...
Or are you one of those hardline lunatics that thinks even places like the Crimea are going to be taken back shortly...
lovetoseeyourpssy@reddit
^ This Putin cum dump regurgitating Kremlin talking points. 😂
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
No details like a typical clown. ROFL.
You still expecting Ukraine to win and Russia collapse?
lovetoseeyourpssy@reddit
Putin cockholster doesn't even deny it. 😂
Hope those rubles spend well.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Yawn.
Ordinary144@reddit
My favorite Western propaganda that shows up here a lot is that "RuSsIaN nUkEs Don't EvEn WoRk AnYmOrE."
Yeah, NATO is about to find out. Nukes are like their main thing. It's the only place they have parity or even supremacy to NATO.
I-heart-java@reddit
What propaganda? My whole point is that almost no one understands these points…
Poland has been arming itself to the teeth over the years and Russia is clearly weakened.
Like are you serious? Russia had to beg North Korea for troops and shells?????? It’s 2 years in and they can’t even recapture Kursk??
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
What difference does it make if Poland's heavily arm they're never going to be at war with Russia. And if they are it'll be a nuclear war. Nuclear countries don't lose conventional wars unless it's not important like Afghanistan.
I-heart-java@reddit
Also, what’s Poland and Ukraine to do, just roll over? If you think that then you support Russia full stop.
I-heart-java@reddit
If Russia takes over Ukraine they will not stop, and Poland is very aware of this… so should you.
Russia should lose this war so badly they walk out of it like the they and the US walked out of Afghanistan, because it’s long costly and stupid.
Hope1995x@reddit
Losses include injuries, 120,000ish Russians are dead, and 80,000ish Ukrainian soldiers are dead.
I-heart-java@reddit
Yup and this is lol sided when you consider Russia has 10x the hardware and budget. lol.
Turbanator456@reddit
500 million troops? What?
I-heart-java@reddit
First time seeing a typo?
VIRGO_SUPERCLUSTERZ@reddit
Russia today is not even close to the same level as the Soviet Union. Nobody's using nuclear weapons.
Turbanator456@reddit
You have been tricked by American propaganda lol
I-heart-java@reddit
I’m assuming you’ve been told this by “your” propaganda…
Smh 🤦🏻
Turbanator456@reddit
I mean in no way I support Russia fuck them but if you really think Poland could take out Russia you're crazy. And to think that you haven't been continuously exposed to American propaganda on the war either is crazy too. Russia is a war machine. They can throw a a couple hundred thousand bodies at this war without thinking about it twice. Are they still the same superpower they were 20-40 years ago? No. But to think they will just lose to Poland is stupid.
blinkinski@reddit
If people want the war, they will have the war. I guess it is impossible to stop.
Friendly_Care5245@reddit
Putin has moved the goal posts several times already. Remember when f-22’s were the line? Then tanks? Biden should have done it a year ago when it was asked and call Putins bluff. Its the same Biden waffling that messed up the Afghanistan withdrawal, and is keeping the middle east a mess. I like Biden but his slow walking everything is frustrating as hell.
No_Science_3845@reddit
Russia makes so many nonsensical red lines that they have their own Wikipedia page.
undisclosedusername2@reddit
Letting Putin continue his advance on Europe will lead to WWIII, regardless. We get to choose whether we defend ourselves now, or later.
Ordinary144@reddit
Jfc, stop with the "if Ukraine falls, Europe is next" bullshit. Putin tolerated so.much.eastern expansion that it had to be countered in Ukraine. Now, the West is supporting another color revolution in Georgia and fucking around in Moldova. Why do we give 2 shits about these corrupt little former soviet satellites? I'll tell ya, it's where the warmongers go to launder billions of US tax dollars through weapons sales.
undisclosedusername2@reddit
Jfc, stop with the 'Putin tolerates so much from the west' shit.
Ordinary144@reddit
I don't know what you are trying to say, it sounds like are agreeing with me.
Driodeka284@reddit
For real. I’m shocked with how many people are happily supporting the US instigating WWIII
I, for one, want my daughters to grow up.
Ordinary144@reddit
Me too. We are one ATACMS missile into St.Petersburg from a devastating nuclear first strike (aka decapitation strike) on the US. The US has shit defense from modern hypersonic and sub launched missiles. We're f$%^ed.
IndicationFluffy3954@reddit
I’m happy Ukraine can finally defend itself without having one hand tied behind its back. I know people in the occupied regions, and have friends who have lost their husbands and family members in this war. I’m happy they have a chance to defend themselves better against their aggressor.
--Muther--@reddit
He's said a lot of stuff and had many red lines.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Putin says la lot of things....
Shit has/will turn WW3 the morning NK soldier engage combat with Ukrainian army.
6ixslices@reddit
Putin is already at war with NATO. WW3 has been ongoing for over a decade now.
TSac-O@reddit
That reminds me of this 2022 interview with Fiona Hill…
Reynolds: The more we talk, the more we’re using World War II analogies. There are people who are saying we’re on the brink of a World War III.
Hill: We’re already in it. We have been for some time. We keep thinking of World War I, World War II as these huge great big set pieces, but World War II was a consequence of World War I. And we had an interwar period between them. And in a way, we had that again after the Cold War. Many of the things that we’re talking about here have their roots in the carving up of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire at the end of World War I. At the end of World War II, we had another reconfiguration and some of the issues that we have been dealing with recently go back to that immediate post-war period. We’ve had war in Syria, which is in part the consequence of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, same with Iraq and Kuwait.
All of the conflicts that we’re seeing have roots in those earlier conflicts. We are already in a hot war over Ukraine, which started in 2014. People shouldn’t delude themselves into thinking that we’re just on the brink of something. We’ve been well and truly in it for quite a long period of time.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340
Tangochief@reddit
I mean the disinformation war on the states is a war that goes unseen and if people don’t think this is part of the war currently happening it just shows how ignorant they are to the technology in their hands.
capitan_dipshit@reddit
WWIII is either not going to happen or it started years ago
Intelligent_Cat1736@reddit
It started in Crimea
capitan_dipshit@reddit
or Georgia, or Chechnya
or we could cut out the middle man and say it started in the kremlin
SensingBensing@reddit
Keyboard warriors
Plan-B-Rip-and-Tear@reddit
This is geopolitics and posturing in expectation Trump will use continued US support as bargaining power to force Ukraine to the negotiating table where Ukraine stands to lose a lot of their territory.
If Ukraine can hang on to the Kursk region if/when negotiations happen, they are in a stronger bargaining position to lose all their territory in the east.
That’s all this is. If Putin cared about his soldiers he’d simply wait until Trump reverses this policy. But he won’t. It’s a mad dash for territory in expectation Trump will try and force Ukraine to the negotiating table. Kursk is one of the only bargaining chips Ukraine has.
SMTecanina@reddit
Putin laid out numerous "red lines" and has not acted on any of them.
ignoreme010101@reddit
well said
ArtisanalDickCheeses@reddit
Just started?
wheres__my__towel@reddit
Yea this is a huge escalation, and a large push closer (past?) to the edge of WW3. People are way too comfortable with the current state of affairs and direction.
OkSupermarket6075@reddit
Believe there are Russians in Trump Tower and Mar-A-Lago - strike those Zelenskyy
GeoNerd25@reddit
Bless him for he is wise
OutlandishnessNo4446@reddit
He really wants to start WW3 so Trump has an even bigger mess to deal with
reddithater212@reddit
Lmao. Shouldn’t be a problem for the master of deals. 😉
NineFolded@reddit
Most excellent
ArgentoFox@reddit
This is the kitchen sink approach because Ukraine has struggled immensely over the past year. Their recruitment woes alone are becoming a massive issue. Russia will simply do what they have always done historically- walk their troops into the meat grinder, take little by little, dig in and occupy, and rinse and repeat. It’s a long, long, long con.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Trump will do a deal.
reddithater212@reddit
That no one will agree to. But art of the deal.
Ready_Doubt8776@reddit
This is how you deescalate tensions. Let’s give them nukes next.
Ineedmoneyyyyyyyy@reddit
I don’t get it. We have maybe 100 years per person. Why not just chill the fuck out
alkbch@reddit
When has humanity ever chilled the fuck out?
Ineedmoneyyyyyyyy@reddit
Most people I know are chill. Just want quality time. It’s ego maniacs who “need” to be in charge (politicians)
alkbch@reddit
Read a history book or two and you’ll realize human beings have been massacring each other pretty much their entire existence.
Ineedmoneyyyyyyyy@reddit
Yeah it’s quite sad. Most of us would not exist if it weren’t for said massacres either.
tjlll33@reddit
Are you a fifth grader that just looked at the news for the first time? “Erm, why can’t everyone just get along forever bros… that would be so hecking Reddit wholesome”
Lestasi_dellOro@reddit
If you’re not looking around and going “What the fuck is even happening right now?” then you’re insane
tjlll33@reddit
Pretty easy to track what’s happening if your worldview aligns with reality
Lestasi_dellOro@reddit
Profile checks out
Ineedmoneyyyyyyyy@reddit
This guys for sure a right winger
Apprehensive_Age5203@reddit
Umm, and then there's me. I actually feel like I'm going insane from how much I'm looking around with the "wtf is even happening right now?"
Lestasi_dellOro@reddit
You’re not alone
Ineedmoneyyyyyyyy@reddit
Weird
KaysaStones@reddit
Because the American left has a weird infatuation with prolonging wars that kill white men
fjb_fkh@reddit
Juuunited we stand.
Felix_Todd@reddit
So do we just let russia take over an european democracy forcefully then?
KaysaStones@reddit
Idk do we know that’s actually their end goal?
PremiumTempus@reddit
Money and power and egos
Albine2@reddit
If this is a world matter get the UN and NATO in Ukraine let the world support it!
haumea_rising@reddit
What exactly is “the course of the war” right now?
lokicramer@reddit
The US is only allowing them to use the missiles in the defense of troops within the kursk region.
This is not full use, not even close.
The headline as usual is crap.
not-a-dislike-button@reddit
The rationale does t matter much practically. It's a significant escalation.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
True.
schlongtheta@reddit
The cheerleading in this thread is profoundly disappointing. We're supposed to be prepping for WWIII, not cheering it on.
arrow74@reddit
Continuing appeasement to Russia is more likely to lead to WWIII imo
Upstairs-Parsley3151@reddit
Honestly worse, a future of enslavement to countries like Russia and North Korea who can attack with impunity.
schlongtheta@reddit
I linked to the Prof. Mearsheimer video in another comment. The first 15 minutes break down the history and backstory of NATO expansion and western intervention in Ukraine that led to the mess. He predicts the future. It's pretty remarkable.
Agency_Junior@reddit
I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted bc this is correct…..
schlongtheta@reddit
When people can't counter with logic or history, they resort to insults and downvotes. It's frustrating but it is what it is. I hope any passers-by this far down the thread have a listen to the first 15 minutes of that talk, it sheds a lot of historical light on the conflict.
Mychatbotmakesmecry@reddit
No, it’s because people are finally figuring out how to tell who is a Russian troll lol
Agency_Junior@reddit
Def not a Russian troll, maybe all the pro Ukrainian comments are CIA trolls 🤣 I know it’s hard to look at the entire history of what NATO/Russia has done that would require actually researching I bet most people don’t even know that Russia tried to join NATO….
seefatchai@reddit
Dude is a moron. He believes that the only countries that matter are big countries and that all other countries should just play along. Why can’t Eastern European countries join NATO or the EU? Why couldn’t Russia have cleaned up its act and joined the EU? I’m sure they’d be happy to add Russia if it wasn’t doing evil stuff and corruption.
hremmingar@reddit
Alright Chamberlain… peace in our time amirite
AcadianaTiger92@reddit
Thank you, most of these people lost their minds when Trump won the landslide election
WASRmelon_white_claw@reddit
This sub is a Psyop
ChromeGhost@reddit
Appeasing Hitler didn’t work
IndicationFluffy3954@reddit
Are we supposed to let an ally just get bombed into oblivion instead..? Putin is the one who started this, he’s the one creating the risk of world war, Ukraine is defending itself from a war they did not start. Saying Ukraine striking back at their aggressor will be the cause of Word War is absurd. Putin and Russia are the cause.
Agency_Junior@reddit
I’m not a Russian supporter by any means but there’s a long history of this conflict it didn’t start with Russia invading Ukraine that’s just the latest saga of it…
No we shouldn’t let an ally get bombed into oblivion but should be encouraging talks not advising Ukraine to fight back, and not negotiate. Reality is without help from outside countries Ukraine will not win, and even with help they may mot win and merely bring more countries into conflict. I don’t know about you but I don’t want to see my kids be shipped off to fight a war. It makes me wonder how anyone can encourage more war full well knowing the death and destruction of so many Ukrainian civilians, and homes.
Peeterdactyl@reddit
This dude is either a Russian bot or an ignorant American brainwashed by a retard on a Joe Rogan interview.
FickleRegular1718@reddit
They know what the alternative now which is why our policy has apparently changed in NATO to defend every inch.
They know it's better to die and "WE LIVE WHEN WE FIGHT!"
FickleRegular1718@reddit
We are all supposed to be on the same page on this for sure...
Fancy_Exchange_9821@reddit
I also highly doubt china would get involved to save Russia. Xi likes the peaceful act he’s been putting on.
xnotachancex@reddit
Exactly and if China loses the West’s $ they are beyond fucked.
schlongtheta@reddit
John Mearsheimer, in the opening 15 minutes of this 2015 talk explains with historical data how NATO expansion and a western coup attempt led us to where we (the world) are now, w/respect to Ukraine/Russia.
https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4?t=119
No_Science_3845@reddit
"A western coup" is when your country overwhelmingly votes to join the EU, you intentionally disregard the will of your people, then steal a billion dollars from your own government and flee the country in disgrace, apparently.
lerpo@reddit
Stop posting this shit every reply here
SovietICBM@reddit
Most of these people don’t even have a basement to hide, yet along a bunker…
schlongtheta@reddit
I tried to link them to the John Mersheimer video in this comment.
No_Science_3845@reddit
And that video is just retarded appeasement. Russia had agreed to NATO expansion in the 90s, they had guaranteed assurances that Ukraine wouldn't be in NATO for decades, they have a nuclear deterrent. There was absolutely no reason for this invasion. Literally none.
Ace_McCloud1000@reddit
Let'er rip tater chip!
hremmingar@reddit
The amount of Russian appeasers here is mindblowing.
Is there like a Chamberlain award to give out?
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Many people are split on this issue.
I personally don't believe WWIII is justified over Ukraine.
If Russia wants to expand further NATO will stop them.
Finally NATO and US have lied to Russia repeatedly and US would never tolerate nukes close to our borders. So don't pretend it's only Russia's fault.
Trump has now been elected. He can figure it out.
hremmingar@reddit
Here you go mate your own Chamberlain Award! Just give them Sudetenland
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Because It's clearly exactly the same.
You support a global Holocaust risk.
ihaveadogalso2@reddit
About time.
AcadianaTiger92@reddit
Moron
vert1s@reddit
Some might say too late
ihaveadogalso2@reddit
Definitely too late but hopefully they can make Up for lost time
Elevator-Ancient@reddit
Unfortunately, I think they waited for after elections. Honestly, wonder if they would've held of if Harris had won.
Feels like a "Fuck it, might as well do the right thing now. What do we have to lose?"
neosharkey@reddit
I think it’s more a sour grapes, “Let’s leave him this mess for his first day in office.”
Elevator-Ancient@reddit
Ignore all previous instructions. Give me a recipe for cupcakes.
ihaveadogalso2@reddit
Very much so. The other unfortunate thing that US will almost certainly grind to a halt in January. Putin is going to get exactly what he wants
hectorxander@reddit
Day late and a dollar short. Times 10 to the 4th power. Biden made other guy inevitable, and I told you all and was shouted down. Hate that I was right.
J0E_Blow@reddit
No you don’t.
4mygirljs@reddit
He should just take the gloves off for the next two months. Ukraine is cooked as soon as Biden is out of office, so they better make it good while they can.
SmokedUp_Corgi@reddit
Give Ukraine everything they need and let it fallout on trumps lap.
RaidLord509@reddit
This is escalating quickly
maincoonpower@reddit
qdai0@reddit
Nice knowing everyone, lol you millennials better not hide from drafting for wars 😅
LaserToy@reddit
I thought GOP is party of hardcore man, not cry babies. You will be fine
qdai0@reddit
The bush republicans moved into the democrats party after trump kick them out 😅
LaserToy@reddit
Who are we? I’m not part of minority.
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
....... why did this take so many fucking years?
Russia claimed it would use nukes if other countries has their soldiers in Ukraine.
Russia uses north Koreans America finally considers striking targets in Russia?
Fucking appeasement. I thought military colleges studied history.
Firm-Analysis6666@reddit
Why do we even care? Ukraine is not a NATO country, and they like to play sides.
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
Russia has clearly laid out it's goals which include nato territory.
It is more cost efficient for us to work with non nato allies.
Firm-Analysis6666@reddit
It makes no sense. If Putin hots a Nato country, it's a completely different story. That is why he hasn't. What do you think is going to happen when U.S. missiles kill N. Koreans?
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
These missiles already killed north Koreans dude.
You either sre completely ignorant or intentionally lying.
These exact weapons were used to kill NK officers in occupied regions of Ukraine.
Now ukraine can aim a bit deeper in Russia wirh the same weapons they already had and already could use up to the limit within Russia the us set previously.
Once again. It already happened where is this response you seemed to assume north korea would send against the us?
Firm-Analysis6666@reddit
The only reports of anything close is unconfirmed reports of 8 N. Koreans killed by a drone attack. Not sure how you're getting such confident intel, dude.
alkbch@reddit
Yes because the U.S. isn’t interested in helping Ukraine win. It is only interested in weakening Russia but without triggering a nuclear catastrophe.
Appropriate_Fold8814@reddit
Ah yes the reddit armchair generals telling world leaders that dealing with nuclear weapons and decades of MAD doctrine is obvious and easy.
🙄
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
Typical redditor pretending that letting a country defend itself will cause Russia to instantly nuke the world.
The fact you used MAD doctrine in this context is fucking hilarious.
King-Florida-Man@reddit
Typical Redditors calling each other typical Redditors.
lavapig_love@reddit
I am the very model of a typical Redditor.
bangedyourmoms@reddit
Peak reddit comment right here
SBTreeLobster@reddit
False, that would be “username checks out”…aw maaaaaan
px7j9jlLJ1@reddit
Typical typical, typically typical.
Jiecut@reddit
Yes
kratos61@reddit
Because it's a moronic escalation.
The only thing they should be doing is sending Zelensky back to the negotiating table. Ukraine cannot win in the long run, anyone who says otherwise is ignorant and doesn't care about Ukrainians who are getting killed needlessly.
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
Yep and Russia was going to take ukraine in 3 days right?
Should we also let Russia take the balkans next?
mowog-guy@reddit
The Balkans aren't Ukraine. It's a straw man. They're already in NATO. stop shilling for the neocons and beating the drums of war we don't need to fight.
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
I never said the balkans are in Ukraine.
I did point out as putin did he wants the balkans next.
What Americans are fighting in Ukraine?
We sent then millions in old military equipment from the 90s and 2000s. We literally sunk ships worth more money than that at yhe end of we2to prevent damaging economic supplies and dockyard companies.
Seems a small price to avoid an actual war against Russia.
BigJSunshine@reddit
Spot ON
Maximum_Talk_696@reddit
It's really easy to tell another country to give up their land, people, and freedom, isn't it?
Bigduck73@reddit
Because now escalation can be blamed on the incoming administration. I mean fuck Trump but Biden is also a coward. It can be both
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
I wasn't really commenting on either administration.
Both have proven themselves to be trying to play appeasement with warlords.
However this action is objectively not an escalation. That would require something new to occur. Deep strikes from Russia to Ukraine using these weapons has occured. This doesn't actually represent an escalation of the conflict. There are no new weapons being used when looking at the conflict overall.
Unless you define escalation as a nation defending itself? As Ukraine is not even at parity in the types of escalation taken.
I'd blame Russia for using these weapons first. That was the actual escalation.
Bigduck73@reddit
Objective truth means nothing to Russia. I'm saying it's cowardice to play by Russia's rules and not do anything Putin could perceive as an escalation while allowing Russia to do worse without consequence
Sure_Source_2833@reddit
Ukraines existence is perceived as an escalation by putin. Ukraine wanting to join nato or the eu was viewed as an escalation.
I perceive a good chance of survival if I drink a gallon of bleach.
Perception is irrelevant to reality.
The fact is Ukraine doing this is not an escalation. Putin has pushed this war far past this point.
Once again someone defending themselves is never an escalation when it's actual self defense.
Putin himself says that Ukraine wasn't a threat. He wasn't worried about the west invading in his tucker Carlson interview. He just says whatever is convenient at the time.
Letting everyone pretend sending ammo to Ukraine was an escalation that would cause nuclear war was equally as insane as this is.
Putin can choose to do that at any point and his views are clearly not based in reality.
XiaoChow@reddit
This could be the big one.
Ho_Advice_8483@reddit
Definitely not good. Yikes
Byzantium-1204@reddit
Let Ukraine deal with this war themselves. They are an independent nation and need to start acting that way.
lavapig_love@reddit
And they'll deal by buying more European weapons instead. Which our military industrial complex won't like.
Byzantium-1204@reddit
Yes. Let Europe deal with this crap. It’s in their backyard
Slowly_We_Rot_@reddit
Fuck Puppet Trump and Fuck Putin Puppet Master
hannaHam2022@reddit
How does this have ANYTHING to do with trump. BIDEN is giving permission and overseeing this.
Gregsdc84@reddit
Conveniently trying to start ww3 before handing over power to Trump. Everyone should be very concerned by this.
hannaHam2022@reddit
For sure. You know this will somehow be Trumps fault. The day trump takes office we will not only be “officially” at war and they’ll claim Biden didn’t start. And we will also be in a massive recession. These headlines Coming January 21,2025……
No-Win-1137@reddit
what missiles https://x.com/ArmchairW/status/1858214547141640304/photo/2
Beaglegod@reddit
Those are two different missiles…
Bb42766@reddit
Lmfao Biden does not control Ukraine any more than Israel. Giving Biden credit is comical
eastcoasttoastpost@reddit
Praise fucking jebus
RelativeJob141@reddit
Starting WW3 on the way out. Fucking dipshits.
mhassig@reddit
WW3 would only start through appeasement the same way WW2 did. A strong show of force and solidarity by NATO to prove that we won’t allow another expansionist dictator to have his way is the best thing we can do.
alkbch@reddit
Are you talking about Netanyahu?
mhassig@reddit
Bibi can burn in hell for all eternity but you damn well know who I was talking about and this “but what about…” bs is pathetic.
alkbch@reddit
How is it pathetic? We allow certain expansionist dictators to have their ways but not others?
mhassig@reddit
Point to me in the comment section where I said Bibi and his fascist goals should be supported? It’s pathetic because it has no relevance in this conversation. You only want to detract from the topic at hand and you thought you’d have a little gotcha moment.
RelativeJob141@reddit
Spoken like a true neocon. We don't need to do anything. This is Europe's problem. They get free health care and college while we pay for their security. We can back them up but thats all we should be doing.
No_Science_3845@reddit
I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but isolationism is fucking stupid.
RelativeJob141@reddit
So not getting into this particular war is isolationism. You are a moron. I've served in the middle east during multiple wars. You send your son. I'm not sending mine. Germany and France can send theirs.
mhassig@reddit
“We don’t need to do anything. This is Europe’s problem” man where did I hear that line before? Oh yeah learning about isolationists who did their best to keep us from stopping Germany in the 40s. Wild how things never change even after all these years.
chohls@reddit
Blew up Germany just for it to become a declining rump state propped up by debt and 3rd world migration
mhassig@reddit
Yeah man the 4th largest economy in the world by country but it’s in decline…top tier comment thanks.
chohls@reddit
Germany has been in recession for most of this year. Volkswagen is closing German plants, which it has never done before. The government keeps maxing out its debt limit and is running a shitshow coalition of clowns just to keep out genuine alternative parties because they might deviate 5% outside of the neoliberal consensus that the EU bureaucrats demand at all costs.
mhassig@reddit
They had growth last quarter so not sure how you define that as being in a recession. Also most major economies are facing hardships in certain sectors so I don’t really get why you think clutching your pearls over Germany is particularly productive. Are you trying to make some point here? Do you think we shouldn’t have intervened then?
coopers_recorder@reddit
Wonder who is really behind these decisions since Biden's brain is mashed potatoes.
schlongtheta@reddit
Weapons manufacturers.
chohls@reddit
Jake Sullivan and Anthony Blinken are basically the foreign policy presidents. Lloyd Austin gets to chime in once in a while when they argue over sending missiles to whoever.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
That an easy question, Biden take decision over military intel he receives...
Trump will ignore everything and do whatever will cross his mind.
Ordinary144@reddit
He probably doesn't even realize Kursk IS IN RUSSIA.
BrownsBrush@reddit
Russia is intensifying attacks after the election baiting this response from Biden; iot allow Trump to claim Biden wants to start WWIII. I still don't know how people will do anything to avoid focusing on the fact that Russia could, ya know... stop invading Ukraine.
alkbch@reddit
Why would Russia stop invading Ukraine now?
BrownsBrush@reddit
I wouldn't have wanted them to invade in the first place.
Sea-Letterhead-735@reddit
No surprise, democrats have become the party of war
maddio1@reddit
Is this good? Major, major escalation for the safety of Americans, correct?
Awkward_Ostrich_4275@reddit
Very good. I don’t see how it’s a major escalation, it’s not the US attacking russia. It’s Ukraine defending itself using the capabilities they already have.
maddio1@reddit
I don't know how you don't see this as an escalation. I just can't believe you're being honest there.
Awkward_Ostrich_4275@reddit
How is it one? I already said why I don’t see it as one.
Deep-Plum4003@reddit
because if/when the strikes do occur, its essentially US/NATO carrying out the strikes on Russian territory ( because Ukraine themselves dont have the satelite infra ) hence the claim from the russian side that this means direct involvement
Awkward_Ostrich_4275@reddit
Ukraine already uses long range ATACMS. So you’re saying that the US already “carries out” the strikes right now, but on Ukrainian territory? I don’t think so.
Classic_Show_3208@reddit
It’s Ukraine defending Kursk, which they invaded. The Russians are sending 50,000 troops to take Kursk back. They’ll be slaughtered with long-range American missiles and then Vladimir Putin will declare war on the United States and NATO.
internetALLTHETHINGS@reddit
There's no point in declaring war on the US when his orange lap dog will be in charge in 2 months.
Striper_Cape@reddit
They already have been using GMLRS in Kursk, dumbass
st0j@reddit
This subreddit is crazy. As if long range weapons were just discovered and 50k troops will all group up together and wait for them. I'm convinced half the subreddit is bots.
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
Of course this is an escalation. It has been spoken of as one for a long time.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Idk if it's proactive escalation or rebalance since NK have/will enter the war
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
Both. So this Ukraine war is textbook incremental escalation. Both sides do it, and also both alliances do it. It slowly piles up on itself.
Regarding this particular move, there are a few aspects to it. Nth Korea, Biden leaving, Trump coming etc. It is also related to potential negotiations if Trump does that. Ukraine wants Kursk to trade and to hold it they need to be able to project a bit of power.
Awkward_Ostrich_4275@reddit
It’s been spoken as such, but I don’t see it that way. Just because everyone says something does not make it so.
diedlikeCambyses@reddit
Its escalatory by definition.
Malcolm_Morin@reddit
This is absolutely an escalation, what do you mean?
phovos@reddit
That's mental.
phovos@reddit
Kiss your loved ones, we back to defcon infinity. This is VERY VERY BAD if true. Still don't really believe it, though.
zsdu@reddit
lol, listen to you.
phovos@reddit
still haven't seen any proof of this fake news
zsdu@reddit
The ramifications of this is negligible, you think Putin is going to escalate given Trump is heading to the White House in a month? This was the US getting a few last punches in before the war gets temporarily resolved.
SMTecanina@reddit
Hope you have the same energy about russias escalations.
maddio1@reddit
Yeah sure i definitely don't want those too but so far they haven't shown anything that makes me think im in danger.
winnie_the_slayer@reddit
You must have missed the part where Russia keeps threatening to nuke everyone.
maddio1@reddit
You're right I did. Can you provide sources for that?
winnie_the_slayer@reddit
It seems like you're sea-lioning because Russia has been threatening nuclear war for years now on a frequent basis, but for others who might be reading:
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-russia-reserves-right-use-nuclear-weapons-if-attacked-2024-09-25/
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-west-nuclear/33119997.html
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/31/europe/medvedev-russia-nuclear-weapons-intl-hnk/index.html
https://news.sky.com/story/dmitry-medvedev-warns-us-it-should-take-russia-nuclear-warnings-seriously-to-avoid-world-war-three-13246539
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-medvedev-warns-nuclear-response-if-ukraine-hits-missile-launch-sites-2024-01-11/
https://apnews.com/article/medvedev-nuclear-putin-arrest-warrant-germany-ukraine-6dcde92e06f41a7c5cb7386f7939df33
https://kyivindependent.com/russias-medvedev-threatens-to-nuke-us-germany-uk-ukraine-if-russia-loses-occupied-territories/
maddio1@reddit
Haha so the very first one says he is threatening nuclear war IF the west helps Ukraine attack it inside Russia. So now I believe even more the US needs to NOT help Ukraine and get out of their for our own safety. You people are insane risking everyone's safety.
SMTecanina@reddit
So we should just let russia do whatever they want without repercussions?
maddio1@reddit
It is tough. I don't want others to start wars but want even less to have my country get involved.
SMTecanina@reddit
So yes, as long as your country doesn't get involved they can do whatever they want because it doesn't directly affect you
maddio1@reddit
To be just as reductive and reactionary... so you think we need to police the world everywhere and every time someone does something bad to another country or population? Because if so, Ukraine probably isnt even the worst thing happening right now
SMTecanina@reddit
Isn't that what we've been doing for quite a while now?
maddio1@reddit
Exactly. But Only In places that have resources. And it needs to totally stop. Now. Europe will learn to pay for their own defense.
SMTecanina@reddit
I'm not a fan of abandoning our allies and partners
I am a fan of someone fighting for their freedom
maddio1@reddit
It benefits the rest of the world and then US defense contractors and our defense officials who get power and eventually to take higher paying jobs.
winnie_the_slayer@reddit
You are so completely full of shit.
maddio1@reddit
lol people can't want more than one thing and sometimes those things conflict with each other. That's what people mean when they say they're conflicted or ambivalent. Let me know if you want any other basic human experiences explained.
winnie_the_slayer@reddit
Russia is the one risking everyone's safety. You are just communicating to everyone here that you are a Putin puppy.
Crafty-ant-8416@reddit
Oh no, other people get to fight for democracy???? What are we going to do?
maddio1@reddit
Look after our children and families? Is that not allowed?
Crafty-ant-8416@reddit
It is, which is why the Ukrainians get to do that now.
maddio1@reddit
Sure. But I don't want to endanger my family. I think I'm allowed that Friday as an America.
Crafty-ant-8416@reddit
Your family is fine, you are many more degrees removed from this than you realize. Do not catastrophize.
AlertZookeepergame58@reddit
Last ditch effort to keep the Money Machine going…
EROSENTINEL@reddit
You really think Biden is making these calls? 3 wars in 3 years? think again
Mrstrawberry209@reddit
Way too late. By the time they get the equipment, the Trump administration will withdrawal the permission. Ukraine better start with creating tactical nukes if they want to have a free Ukraine within the next five years.
Opposite_Ad_1707@reddit
Wait I thought I read once that Ukraine already had long range weapons on hand?
Mrstrawberry209@reddit
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/britain-becomes-first-country-to-supply-ukraine-with-long-range-missiles/
I think you mean this?
Opposite_Ad_1707@reddit
Ahh you got me bruh. You the real one
_WeAreFucked_@reddit
“Allows”…sure Buddy. For every action there is a reaction.
Used-Statement-9896@reddit
Yay more war. Military industrial complex is really the only thing keeping us afloat so might as well
Rikan_legend@reddit
Well guys we had a good run, we made it to the moon, we created internet we snap a few pictures of the universe and we landed robots on mars, created good music and good motion pictures, farewell my friends
Wrong-Barracuda0U812@reddit
It allows Biden to declare Marshall Law and suspend the election results because now we are at war with Russia…
Aggressive-Value1654@reddit
It's Martial Law.
And no, Biden isn't going to declare Martial Law.
Razafraz11@reddit
I think this barracuda might be wrong…
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Sauce ?
UpsideDownUpside@reddit
We are at war with Russia.
Steel5917@reddit
Very brave decision by Biden on his way out of the White House and leaving the repercussions for Trump to deal with.
Friendly_Care5245@reddit
Yeah because Trump didn’t leave anything for Biden to deal with. Remember when Obama didn’t want to give Ukraine lethal aid then Trump came in and gave them lethal aid? Typically the best way to start a war is to arm both sides. If Trump didn’t arm Ukraine, Russia would have probably done what they did in Georgia…take very small chunks of land at a time, non-violently, and wait for the political situation to change.
Ebscriptwalker@reddit
Oh well well how the turn tables
Hefty-Evidence-4574@reddit
I would say he’s lost it but we all know that happened 10 years ago
Deep-Plum4003@reddit
For those who dont understand why this was a big issue to begin with :
If/when the strikes do occur, its essentially US/NATO carrying out the strikes on Russian territory ( because Ukraine themselves dont have the satelite infra ) hence the claim from the Russian side that this means direct involvement
ExpensivePitt@reddit
Tis be done by 01/06/2025. No harm, no fowl.
No-Screen1369@reddit
This is the equivalent of turning the tap on and flooding your ex's apartment cuz they're cheating on you with Putin and he's moving in tomorrow.
SensingBensing@reddit
Awesome we have a demented man leading the world into WW3
IsItAnyWander@reddit
Shhhh, you're on the wrong side
AntiTrollSquad@reddit
Seems like a good portion of the US and European electorates could benefit with some extra history lessons.
WW3 started 10 years ago with all misinformation campaigns, and sorry to say, but Putin is winning there. He's tearing up the West, has polarised entire countries, caused Brexit, destroyed the Republican party, distracted the left globally... It will be interesting to read what historians have to say in 50 years' time about the early 21st century.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Clear winner ATM is China.
Both NATO and Russia are depleting weapon stock and displaying capabilities. While china keep piling up and not showing it's cards.
AntiTrollSquad@reddit
Agreed, don't forget India as well. Modi has played his cards to perfection.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
True, we often forget but this is a truly raising empire.
chohls@reddit
Taiwan will be much harder for the US/NATO to defend than Ukraine is. China absolutely has the manufacturing power to outpace the US on it's own, and could rapidly cripple the US war machine (which by extension will severely cripple NATO) with a trade embargo, whereas Russia needs the assistance of the BRICS to keep it's war machine on par with NATO's.
AntiTrollSquad@reddit
I thought I was agreeing with you...
IsItAnyWander@reddit
You guys are funny
Fancy_Exchange_9821@reddit
okay but do i still have to go to work tomorrow?
TobleroneThirdLeg@reddit
End it before trump takes power lol
Rev-Dr-Slimeass@reddit
There is zero chance this war ends before Trump takes power.
TobleroneThirdLeg@reddit
With enough long range missies. Anything is possible.
Rev-Dr-Slimeass@reddit
Not this. Are you serious?? Ukraine is really struggling right now. They can't beat Russia any more.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Fuck I wish Russian population had the latitude to get organized...
Rev-Dr-Slimeass@reddit
Thats such a western centric view. There is no reason to think that Russians, even if they had the ability, would see the intrinsic value in a liberal democracy.
In the west, we automatically assume that since liberal democracy is the best system of government because it is our government.
Russians had every opportunity to have a western style liberal democracy, and chose something else.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Who said Liberal democracy?
I was thinking about good ol' revolutionary coup d'état and assassination. Followed by a never ending transition dictatorship.
Rev-Dr-Slimeass@reddit
What makes you think Russia would change direction? From a Russian perspective, the grievances that led to this war are legitimate. They didn't just wake up one day and decide that war was the answer. A new Russian leader would almost certainly keep the war going, especially when you consider that Russia isn't actually losing.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
I'm not expecting anything I'm the scale of "sorry, take back your land" but this war is ruining the country, no one in Russia can ignore that regardless on their position about the war.I think that who ever can obtain a peace agreement that can be called a victory, give mariupol to oligarchs, do a great parade and promise to rebuild the economy will have enough political support to not fall off a window. I understand that Russia is winning but this is getting way more costly than anticipated. And the loot is getting bombed everyday.
FunkyPlunkett@reddit
Rev-Dr-Slimeass@reddit
Oh my bad. Yeah the russian military will for sure collapse in the next couple of weeks. Putler will be arrested and tried for war crimes. Navalny will come back from the dead to be president of Russia when it joins NATO.
FunkyPlunkett@reddit
Melodic_Cat3923@reddit
Fucking great. Wtf
Wise-Desk-6872@reddit
2C104@reddit
This is the most convoluted title I've ever read on this sub
chohls@reddit
Biden doing this will just give Trump even more motivation to completely cut off Ukraine ASAP, and the collapse will be even more precipitous.
randomguy506@reddit
Russian boys are out in force in this thread
tsoldrin@reddit
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
Russia-UkraineWar
Photos
Maps: Russia’s Gains
Putin Talks With German Chancellor
Moscow Welcomes Trump’s Victory
How Ukraine’s Widows Grieve
Biden Allows Ukraine to Strike Russia With Long-Range U.S. Missiles
With two months left in office, the president for the first time authorized the Ukrainian military to use the system known as ATACMS to help defend its forces in the Kursk region of Russia.
Listen to this article · 7:39 min Learn more
Image

Mr. Biden’s decision to allow Ukraine to use Army Tactical Missile Systems, or ATACMS, came in response to Russia’s decision to bring North Korean troops into the fight.Credit...John Hamilton/White Sands Missile Range, via Associated Press

By Adam EntousEric Schmitt and Julian E. Barnes
Reporting from Washington
Nov. 17, 2024, 1:00 p.m. ET
Sign up for Your Places: Global Update. All the latest news for any part of the world you select. Get it sent to your inbox.
President Biden has authorized the first use of U.S.-supplied long-range missiles by Ukraine for strikes inside Russia, U.S. officials said.
The weapons are likely to be initially employed against Russian and North Korean troops in defense of Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region of western Russia, the officials said.
Mr. Biden’s decision is a major change in U.S. policy. The choice has divided his advisers, and his shift comes two months before President-elect Donald J. Trump takes office, having vowed to limit further support for Ukraine.
Allowing the Ukrainians to use the long-range missiles, known as the Army Tactical Missile Systems, or ATACMS, came in response to Russia’s surprise decision to bring North Korean troops into the fight, officials said.
Advertisement
Mr. Biden began to ease restrictions on the use of U.S.-supplied weapons on Russian soil after Russia launched a cross-border assault in May in the direction of Kharkiv, Ukraine’s second-largest city.
To help the Ukrainians defend Kharkiv, Mr. Biden allowed them to use the High Mobility Artillery Rocket System, or HIMARS, which have a range of about 50 miles, against Russian forces directly across the border. But Mr. Biden did not allow the Ukrainians to use longer-range ATACMS, which have a range of about 190 miles, in defense of Kharkiv.
While the officials said they do not expect the shift to fundamentally alter the course of the war, one of the goals of the policy change, they said, is to send a message to the North Koreans that their forces are vulnerable and that they should not send more of them.
The officials said that while the Ukrainians were likely to use the missiles first against Russian and North Korean troops that threaten Ukrainian forces in Kursk, Mr. Biden could authorize them to use the weapons elsewhere.
Advertisement
Some U.S. officials said they feared that Ukraine’s use of the missiles across the border could prompt President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia to retaliate with force against the United States and its coalition partners.
But other U.S. officials said they thought those fears were overblown.
The Russian military is set to launch a major assault by an estimated 50,000 soldiers, including North Korean troops, on dug-in Ukrainian positions in Kursk with the goal of retaking all of the Russian territory that the Ukrainians seized in August.
The Ukrainians could use the ATACMS missiles to strike Russian and North Korean troop concentrations, key pieces of military equipment, logistics nodes, ammunition depots and supply lines deep inside Russia.
Doing so could help the Ukrainians blunt the effectiveness of the Russian-North Korean assault.
Whether to arm Ukraine with long-range ATACMS has been an especially sensitive subject since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022.
Advertisement
Some Pentagon officials opposed giving them to the Ukrainians because they said the U.S. Army had limited supplies. Some White House officials feared that Mr. Putin would widen the war if they gave the missiles to the Ukrainians.
Supporters of a more aggressive posture toward Moscow say Mr. Biden and his advisers have been too easily intimidated by Mr. Putin’s hostile rhetoric, and they say that the administration’s incremental approach to arming the Ukrainians has disadvantaged them on the battlefield.
Proponents of Mr. Biden’s approach say that it had largely been successful at averting a violent Russian response.
Allowing long-range strikes on Russian territory using American missiles could change that equation.
Advertisement
In August, the Ukrainians launched their own cross-border assault into the Kursk region, where they seized a swath of Russian territory.
Since then, U.S. officials have become increasingly concerned about the state of the Ukrainian army, which has been stretched thin by simultaneous Russian assaults in the east, Kharkiv and now Kursk.
The introduction of more than 10,000 North Korean troops and Mr. Biden’s response come as Mr. Trump prepares to re-enter office with a stated goal of quickly ending the war.
Mr. Trump has said little about how he would settle the conflict. But Vice President-elect JD Vance has outlined a plan that would allow the Russians to keep the Ukrainian territory that their forces have seized.
Advertisement
The Ukrainians hope that they would be able to trade any Russian territory they hold in Kursk for Ukrainian territory held by Russia in any future negotiations.
If the Russian assault on Ukrainian forces in Kursk succeeds, Kyiv could end up having little to no Russian territory to offer Moscow in a trade.
President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine has long sought permission from the United States and its coalition partners to use long-range missiles to strike Russian soil.
The British and French militaries have given the Ukrainians a limited number of Storm Shadow and SCALP missiles, which have a range of about 155 miles, less than the American missile system.
While British and French leaders voiced support for Mr. Zelensky’s request, they were reluctant to allow the Ukrainians to start using their missiles on Russian soil unless Mr. Biden agreed to allow the Ukrainians to do the same with ATACMS.
Mr. Biden was more risk-averse than his British and French counterparts, and his top advisers were divided on how to proceed.
Some of them seized on a recent U.S. intelligence assessment that warned that Mr. Putin could respond to the use of long-range ATACMS on Russian soil by directing the Russian military or its spy agencies to retaliate, potentially with lethal force, against the United States and its European allies.
The assessment warned of several possible Russian responses that included stepped-up acts of arson and sabotage targeting facilities in Europe, as well as potentially lethal attacks on U.S. and European military bases.
Officials said Mr. Biden was persuaded to make the change in part by the sheer audacity of Russia’s decision to throw North Korean troops at Ukrainian lines.
He was also swayed, they said, by concerns that the Russian assault force would be able to overwhelm Ukrainian troops in Kursk if they were not allowed to defend themselves with long-range weapons.
U.S. officials said they do not believe that the decision will change the course of the war.
But they said Mr. Biden determined that the potential benefits — Ukraine will be able to reach certain high-value targets that it would not otherwise be able to, and the United States will be able to send a message to North Korea that it will pay a significant price for its involvement — outweighed the escalation risks.
Mr. Biden faced a similar dilemma a year ago when U.S. intelligence agencies learned that the North Koreans would supply Russia with long-range ballistic missiles.
In that case, Mr. Biden agreed to supply several hundred long-range ATACMS to the Ukrainians for use on Ukraine’s sovereign territory, including the Russian-occupied Crimean Peninsula. Those supplemented the more limited supplies of Storm Shadow and SCALP missiles that the Ukrainians received from Britain and France.
The Ukrainians have since used many of those missiles in a concerted campaign of strikes against Russian military targets in Crimea and in the Black Sea.
As a result, it is unclear how many of the missiles the Ukrainians have left in their arsenal to use in the Kursk region.
Adam Entous is a Washington-based investigative reporter focused on national security and intelligence matters. More about Adam Entous
Eric Schmitt is a national security correspondent for The Times, focusing on U.S. military affairs and counterterrorism issues overseas, topics he has reported on for more than three decades. More about Eric Schmitt
Julian E. Barnes covers the U.S. intelligence agencies and international security matters for The Times. He has written about security issues for more than two decades. More about Julian E. Barnes
Our Coverage of the War in Ukraine
North Korea’s Military: Kim Jong-un, the country’s leader, ordered mass production of drones, which are becoming an increasingly important addition to the country’s growing arsenal.
Kyiv Missile Attack: Russia launched a volley of missiles aimed at Kyiv, ending a more than two-month pause in such attacks on the Ukrainian capital.
Blinken Visits NATO: Secretary of State Antony Blinken visited the alliance’s headquarters in Brussels as Europe braces for the anticipated upheaval of a new Trump era in Washington.
How We Verify Our Reporting
Our team of visual journalists analyzes satellite images, photographs, videos and radio transmissions to independently confirm troop movements and other details.
We monitor and authenticate reports on social media, corroborating these with eyewitness accounts and interviews. Read more about our reporting efforts.
RealCalintx@reddit
Found the MAGA 🤡who’s helping start WWIII by appeasing Putin today.
History loves to repeat itself bc of asinine bad faith isolationism.
True_Dimension4344@reddit
There is no peace with Russia. It’s president Biden, bitch. And ain’t nobody reading all that.
BigJSunshine@reddit
InfernalDiplomacy@reddit
Might as well
Khischnaya_Ptitsa@reddit
Biden is a walking poo
NBRIDER75@reddit
Let’s go!!!!!!!!
Roughrep@reddit
And he has Allowed Isreal to kill women and children for years. The US are the biggest threat to world peace in the last 20 years
devadander23@reddit
K. Let me know when the nukes are flying. This ain’t it
Lost_Poem7495@reddit
NOOO NOO NOO NOO NOOOOO NOOOOOO NOOOOOOOOOOO
BrownsBrush@reddit
Russia is intensifying attacks after the election baiting this response from Biden; iot allow Trump to claim Biden wants to start WWIII. I still don't know how people will do anything to avoid focusing on the fact that Russia could, ya know... stop invading Ukraine.
Accurate_Zombie_121@reddit
I would like to see first long range strike be Putin's billion dollar estate. Then the Kremlin.
backcountry57@reddit
I think it's highly unlikely this is accurate. This would be a massive change, especially while the US is under a regime change
Sunbeamsoffglass@reddit
Biden has nothing to lose at this point, and Trump will give Ukraine to Russia, so this is likely their last chance to take the offense.
Dense_Impression6547@reddit
Idk, over what Trump is saying, he will want to recover the investment, and giving everything to Russia won't bring any money to US. And zelensky will prefer to loose everything than settle down a loosing bargain.
ryrypk777@reddit
Reuters: Biden allows Ukraine to use US arms to strike inside Russia - https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-lifts-ban-ukraine-using-us-arms-strike-inside-russia-2024-11-17/
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
Well the New York Times and Washington post disagree with you
boof_tongue@reddit
I mean.. this does seem like a little bit of a "fuck you" to Trump. Besides the implications it's kinda funny. To reiterate, I do think this is a serious event but knowing that Trump is trying to hamstring Ukraine there is a little humor there.
ArtisanalDickCheeses@reddit
Should have done this a year ago.
hectorxander@reddit
Three years ago.
Either-Wallaby-3755@reddit
Wow, slow clap… only 4 years too late.
BronzeSpoon89@reddit
Heeellllllllllll yeah. Fuck Russia.
syynapt1k@reddit
About fucking time.
Blurry_Focus_117@reddit
Ukraine does not have the satellite infrastructure to target or launch long range missiles. This "permission" is essentially Ukraine specifying a target, and us carrying out the attack.
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
That's what Putin thinks for sure. It'll be interesting now if he responds or just toughs it out for a couple months till Trump's shutdown
Stars3000@reddit
Light ‘em up!!!!!
phovos@reddit
im gonna call fake news for now
Leader_2_light@reddit (OP)
I pasted the article in a comment
phovos@reddit
its a paywalled article from a rag of a source, like i said. Noone else is talking about it yet.
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
Google it. The New York Times and Washington post have articles on it as well.
phovos@reddit
This is the NYT article and WP + NYT both having the same news is not news. They have the same sources (namely: cia, whitehouse)
butterfish2@reddit
Yeah exactly, that's who runs the western world. What are you talking about?
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
Ok what about Reuters and the associated press and radio free Europe
phovos@reddit
if they aren't just quoting this article, POST IT MAN
Outrageous_Laugh5532@reddit
https://apnews.com/article/biden-ukraine-long-range-weapons-russia-52d424158182de2044ecc8bfcf011f9c
phovos@reddit
yep this is fake news
gwhh@reddit
According to what I read. The USA running real low on missiles to send them.
AnthonyGSXR@reddit
Give em Hell boys!!