Rebuild Marine Diesel - Learning
Posted by InvideoSilenti@reddit | sailing | View on Reddit | 38 comments
TLDR - Looking for an actual salvage engine to learn on by rebuilding. Not something that has been looked over and is for sale on a shelf. Not something with 2000hp meant for powerboats. Gulf coast, central Florida. Difficulty finding an actual salvage yard rather than a chandlery selling used engines already tested, repaired if necessary and sitting on a shelf for sale. I just wanted to find something that maybe went through a sinking, pulled from a boat since destroyed, replaced with a new engine, etc. Maybe 30-60 hp. Single head. Preferably without any head warping, no or limited computers, no turbo, etc. Serpentine belt would be nice so I could have a chance at installing a second alternator (Leece-Neville is on the list) in the nebulous future, but beggars and choosers right? Any places to actually inquire? I am willing to drive a fair long distance to get what I want.
My wife and I will be buying a sailboat sometime between now and this time next year. Basically dependent on what we can find at a given price, etc. The majority of what would be expected of us as cruisers I can already do or expect to acquire hands on experience with in short order. Marine specific hands on experience is short, but 40 years of leisure woodworking, 20+ of minor electrical, lifetime of computer work, reading books (Dashews, Calder, West), blogs (remember Bumfuzzle anyone?) and the goldmine that Youtube has become on this subject have given me plenty of base knowledge, if little experience in some areas, to start. I have no concerns about fiberglass work, the mechanics of sailing, electrical, etc. We are planning on joining the Englewood Sailing Association as volunteers to get hands on with what we can over the next year. We have been planning this for a long time and the bottom line is, engines are the one area I have little to no confidence.
Feel free to tell me I am off my rocker, but please include ideas as well since I am going through with this one way or another.
Tools are not really an issue. Have all the basics. Would be getting a stand, valve compressor and ring compressor as necessary, pulling tool, feeler gauges, etc. Whatever is needed, as necessary.
My only real experience here is once, 20 years ago, being asked to change the oil in a single cylinder, 4 stroke tilling machine. I did this. Then it wouldn't start. I would assume they got it working again when I wasn't around, but this was not exactly confidence building. My life to date simply has not offered opportunity to work on engines, much less diesel or marine diesel engines.
There do not appear to be any local classes at a JUCO or Technical College that I could take. Becoming a car mechanic sure. Nothing diesel or marine specific. There is a class about an hours drive away at the "Sarasota Power and Sail Squadron", but it does not appear to teach what I want to know. I can change filters and measure fluid levels without attending a class on the subject.
So i have settled on finding an older marine diesel to rebuild. In one of his books, Calder said - paraphrasing here "any idiot who can follow instructions can get a manual and rebuild an engine". Seems I will be the idiot to test his theory. Pistons and cylinder sleeves if needed, but a simple rebuild otherwise. No desire to replace the camshaft if I don't have to. I would like to do this fairly cheap, relatively speaking, in case I blow it up. The problem is, where do I find something like this?
When I search for marine salvage yards and the like, i am greeted with a series or returns that range from boat towing, leisure powerboat dealerships, and West Marine. A place like "Don's Marine Surplus and Salvage" looked promising, but they appear to sell "known good" and rebuilt engines. They don't appear to offer what I am looking for.
Any ideas on places to look, specific places and not just "wander down to the boatyard and see if anything is sitting around", are welcome. I tend to be a bit shy when it comes to just showing up somewhere and walking around not even knowing if that is allowed or not.
Final note: I cannot remember the term, and cannot find reference to it with a quick search, but avoiding the older diesel that sprays diesel around the compartment would be a must. I do hope to make use of this when I succeed.
bill9896@reddit
On the other side of the state, try contacting Oliver at Yachts and Diesels in Fort Lauderdale. Tell him what you are looking for and why. He’ll be genuinely excited to help. He has a HUGE inventory of salvage engines. In his endless warehouse will be the perfect candidate for your project.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
THANK YOU! I want to do some more investigation first, the suggestions of getting an outboard seem practical, but if I go forward with this, definitely on my list. Thanks again!
bill9896@reddit
And one point that has been brought up in the discussion, but not emphasized enough, in my opinion: Would the project be FUN? It's true that a sailor does not need to know about the interior of his engine. Pistons, rings, crankshafts, bearings, are not essential knowledge even for the long distance sailor. All the bits hanging on the outside of the engine are where the problems occur. Like alternators, pumps, starters, fuel pumps, etc. But if rebuilding an engine is something that would fuel your joy of learning, and give you a sense of accomplishment, then dive in.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Fun for me is generally a bit different. Interesting is fun. Outside my experience is fun. Practical use when done is something to make me grin like an idiot for a few hours.
Engines are just such a huge blind spot for me. I don't mean in the manner of theory or book study, more along the lines of "step 1: remove x with..", and you do so an some little piece falls out and you are like "WTF is this?" This generally does not happen to me with electronics or electrical, or anything else real. Or, when is it ok to hit it with a mallet? Use a breaker bar? Heat it up? When do you give up on penetrating oil? It's the mechanical nature in practice that is such a huge blind spot for me.
Carburetors are a real weakness. Well, intimidating. Took one apart with some friends years ago. For a Cagiva motorcyle. Cleaned it up, didn't really dismantle it, it would later work but something about that part messed with me. Didn't understand how it worked well enough to suit me I guess.
Friend's first car. 57' Chevy with a 327 Vette engine. You had to get under the thing with a screw driver to get the damned start to engage. Kept taking it in to get the starter replaced, often under warranty. Took months for anyone to figure out the problem. Block has a small crack that kept letting the starter fall loose. A positive experience with mechanical would be nice to me.
Being able to add a second alternator, and switch it from v-belt to serpentine for that purpose if necessary, would be high on my list. From what I have seen and read, yeah, not trivial.
On a side note: I am actually enjoying this thread.
jonnohb@reddit
Focus on the sailing, and finding a decent boat. I wouldn't worry about spending all that time and energy on tearing down an engine to rebuild that you won't have a use for when it's done. Once you have the boat, if you still want to do this project then you can look for an actual engine candidate to rebuild as a repower.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
I am struggling to find a proper analogy. Not knowing what I am getting in to does not work well for me. Yanking the engine from a boat I just purchased while it sits on the hard or a mooring, going no where, incurring cost, etc.. - just rather bothers me as a concept. Almost like the whole "leaping without looking" kind of thing. It appears the cost of a class would cover most of the cost of just buying a derelict and learning on your own.
Are you suggesting I am over preparing? I do tend to this.
JettaGLi16v@reddit
Have you ever driven a car / motorcycle / scooter / moped? I assume you followed the same sequence you are trying to apply here? Starting by rebuilding a different engine?
Re-wiring your house or apartment would probably be a more applicable skill set for buying an old sailboat.
We just bought a 1979 boat with a slightly unhappy engine. Moved her from Ft Pierce to Daytona two days ago. I believe my issue is in the fueling system. Old diesels are fairly robust.
jonnohb@reddit
Yes you are over preparing. Do you even know how to sail yet?
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Very little experience. Few hours on a catamaran on lake. A friend's power boat. Little afternoon rides where I was not expected to crew. Here's the thing, and it is my fault for not putting it in my opening statement, I don't fear my ability to learn what I need to there. I fear a blown engine and massive expense right out of the gate.
jonnohb@reddit
You're overthinking it. Go sailing, learn to sail well and you won't be worried about whether or not your engine works. Also marine diesels don't just blow up out of nowhere. If you're looking at decent boats and get a proper survey you will be fine.
Effective_Store_9083@reddit
Actual diesel mechanic here
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Acquiring a "marine" version seemed to be the best option for something that might actually fit in a sailboat after the fact. Meaning it would already have the heat exchanger and I wouldn't have to go hunting or adapt something. I believe they used to "detune" the "marinized" versions of diesels to put less stress on the engine.
I am familiar with Kubota. Beta uses them to "marinize" and they, alongside Yanmar, seem to be the gold standard. The bonus being they are heavily used outside of the marine industry. Parts widely available that do not get the dreaded "marine" label tax.
I am certainly not in a position, from a space standpoint, to buy an old car or tractor. All I have available is about 1/3 of a standard size 2 car garage in Florida. With an HOA to boot. Not like I can buy something like this, somehow get it to the house, and leave it on the driveway while I pull the engine or something. This is just not in the cards at all. Have a smaller SUV, not a truck.
I am curious about the $5k cost. That seems completely out of whack with the rebuild kits and my research watching or reading of others doing this. I am looking at a rebuild kit right now on a 3TNV88, a little short on the power I would probably be headed for, but seems a good example to use. The rebuild kit, with pistons and rings, no wrist pins, is $525. It does seem you could drop a couple grand on having to machine the block and/ or head IF that is needed. Something I would hope to avoid. The cost of honing (assuming it is not too thin for this) or boring doesn't seem bad, but all the other jobs can add up. IF they are needed.
My thought on a rebuild was not as deep a rebuild as it seems you might be writing about. Are you talking about a deeper kind of rebuild or am I missing something? Buying a new or lightly used Yanmar seems to cost little more than the price you are quoting me.
I was told to stay the hell away from the injector pump. After seeing an exploded diagram, yeah, I have no intention of screwing with that. Looked more complex than the engine itself.
I am chuckling to myself because the day before i posted this, when i was investigating some tool costs and making lists, I mentally reminded myself to make sure i got one in inch-pounds as well as foot-pounds. I would expect the digital ones can be switched to metric if needed, but I have not yet investigated that.
I may just get a manual and read it for the time being, Seems the best short term answer.
Turimbar_Maethor@reddit
I know that you just said you don't have the space, but I'd have to parrot what the parent comment said. Diesel engines are pretty much diesel engines. Learn how they work, and you'll be good.
The rest of the Marine aspect comes from cooling and exhaust routing. Learn the basics of how ANY engine works, and you'll be well on your way, learn the specifics of diesel, and you're even better.
Getting hands-on with an old tractor, skid steer, generator etc. is going to be easier than finding a sailboat.
Best of luck no matter what!
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
I may look at a used outboard. Some knowledge there, and as a backup on the dinghy thatI hope to go electric. Seems my best bet. Maybe even a dead simple 2 stroke
jh937hfiu3hrhv9@reddit
Get a junk lawnmower from a lawnmower repair shop and rebuild it. Everything will translate but ignition systems and fuel injectors. The diesel has no ignition system and it's best to have a specialty shop rebuild injectors anyway.
Effective_Store_9083@reddit
This right here is exactly what I'm saying
An engine is an engine is an engine
You're gonna garf up piston rings on a lawn mower Just as bad as you're gonna on a diesel... the difference is a mower engines rungs are maybe 10$ vs who knows what for a diesel
Childofglass@reddit
You’ll likely have to call them. The overwhelming majority of people don’t want an engine to rebuild.
Additionally, you’ll likely face the issue in the future of some of the engines components not quite matching up with the existing components in your future boat.
An outboard is easy, but an inboard isn’t as simple. You can’t just drop whatever one you have lying around in and expect everything to line up.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Being able to make use of it would be a bonus. A really nice bonus, but a bonus none-the-less. I certainly do not expect to just build and then drop into place without consideration of mating with the transmission, space issues, mount issues, etc.
Childofglass@reddit
I’m just curious what the purpose of doing this is?
It is very unlikely that rebuilding an engine is going to help you when something breaks. Diagnosis is not learned from a rebuild. In fact, a significant amount of automotive mechanics don’t rebuild or even replace engines. I used to work with those that did only because we dealt in foreign makes that frequently needed to be decarbed- and even that isn’t a full rebuild. If you mess up the timing chain you can destroy the engine block and then you’ll have to take it to another guy to deal with because you won’t have and won’t be able to afford the specialist tools to fix it- but it can be ‘fixed’ for a price.
Call any scrap yard and tell them what you’re doing, I’m not from your area so I can’t tell you where specifically, but you really should practice on something that is smaller, easier to source parts for and cheaper to replace before starting on a big engine.
And also you should consider what you’re hoping to learn from this project. You’re likely better off learning routine running repairs on a lawn mower or outboard instead. Cleaning a carburetor, diagnosing a starting issues, tracing wiring issues, changing oil and fuel filters. Rebuilding an engine teaches you none of those things and it’s far more likely that you’ll encounter them than a fried engine that you need to rebuild on the move (which is impossible unless you keep the requisite parts on board, which are also expensive in many cases).
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
I am struggling to respond to this. I have now written and deleted 4 or 5 replies for being incomplete or unsatisfactory. There is much to reply to here. The shortest version is, "to know." An easier answer is "Fear." It would be nice to have something of practical value at the end as well. Thus my preference to rebuild something rather than take a class. It's the DIY attitude to a certain extent. If you DIY, maybe you spend as much as a repair would have cost, but at the end you know what you are doing and have the tools to boot.
I am not looking to become a mechanic. I do not expect to learn diagnosis. Something that I understand, from someone who does have extensive experience, only comes from years of experience. I want to know what I can do. What options I have if we get an older boat with "unknown" engine hours and it dies in the first 6 months. Can I rebuild it? Can i swap it out? Can i do at least some of this without having to incur a loss of $20k of our reserve savings after purchase to pay to have it replaced? If I do replace it with one we just rebuilt, then I have an engine that should be good for a long while.
Honestly there is just so much to say here and I am tired and really struggling to reply properly. The areas you brought up I do not fear either fixing it myself, fixing it with a little help, or paying a pro to sort out. I do, absolutely, fear -> purchasing an older boat, having the engine die, and be faced with the loss of a substantial amount of our reserve right off the bat.
You are dead correct in some ways. Sorting out some of the issues you mentioned would be of more likely use to me. But I do not fear them. I do fear having to replace the engine with a new one and a professional install.
Childofglass@reddit
I completely understand and I also prefer to do things myself but I’ve had an older car and a family full of mechanics in addition to working as a service advisor and now I’m doing that but with semi trucks.
Truthfully, diagnosis is the most important part of any repair. Bad mechanics are bad because they misdiagnose or lie about their diagnosis outright.
Your repair bills will be much smaller is you can diagnose running issues and all of the other common ones I’ve cited, getting parts and doing the work is inexpensive. Overhauling an engine is something that takes weeks of full- time work by an experienced mechanic. Even if your engine dies, you’ll then have to pull it, source the parts and rebuild it- this is potentially months if you get the wrong parts initially or longer if you put it back together wrong. Seriously.
This is not likely to be your biggest problem.
If you’re really worried about your engine dying, buy a new (or remanned) compatible one when you get your new boat, install it when you are ready and keep up on routine maintenance- that engine will last far longer than you’re expecting.
Seriously. Running repairs and electrical are always going to be the least predictable and most urgent. Most engines also don’t just die, the progressively have more and more issues. The exception being if something gets in your fuel or oil that ought not be there. Good maintenance prevents most of these issues. Looking at the engine regularly catches problems before they bad enough to have a catastrophic failure.
Do you work on your own car? Maybe start with that…
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
The car is actually too new to need anything but an oil change, which it just had.
The good news is I tend to be proactive and meticulous. Regular maintenance, clean fuel, oil and air, checking for loose connections, doing it right the first time. All a part of me. Just how I am.
After reading everyone's replies, I am going to forego this for now. Perhaps I will even get a chance to help someone else rebuild theirs before needing to take it on myself.
Side note: You previously mentioned messing up the timing chain. I thought pretty much all modern engines were keyed?
Childofglass@reddit
Yes, but if you’re rebuilding something older, it may not be. Also if you get the wrong chain it may have extra links and a cheaper one may stretch and break. If you don’t have all of the guides and tensioners positioned correctly it could jump and destroy your nicely rebuilt engine.
There’s a reason why rebuilds are expensive.
It’s nice to have a new car! My first car was very far from new and it taught me a lot about common car issues. An older boat is the same way. Get a survey, get something good and you’ll have a chance to learn the basics and then when you get something shiny and new you’ll be more appreciative and be able to take care of it better because you know more.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
I should have taken a couple of classes years ago with some friends. I expect to enjoy much of the work. Not all of it, but quite a bit.
issue9mm@reddit
Replying down here just so you know I've read to this point. I identify with you strongly, and have the same need to prepare. Others are right in that it shouldn't be an obstacle to sailing, but you can pursue engine internals on the side while you do.
That said, Jim Zima of Great Lakes Diesel (I think that's the company name) has a bunch of courses online that you can take. He also offers it in person if you can get people together to chip in (or are willing to overpay for it) but as someone who NEEDED to know how things worked enough to have a feeling of preparedness, you might be able to get away with one of those.
I learned of it by taking his advanced diesel master class as part of the Annapolis Boat Show's Cruiser University program. It was widely informative. It's not college, but in person, he brings engines and tools into classes and you can play around with removing impellers or fuel pumps or whatever you want.
It got me over the need to buy an old diesel block and build it from scratch, but even if it doesn't do that for you, Jim is a guy who gets old/bad engines as part of his business and could probably at least point you in the right direction if not outright sell you one.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Than you for this. I may well look this up.
IanSan5653@reddit
Have you actually been to Don's? I doubt every engine there is "known good". It's a massive place packed full of rusty parts. Go check it out - even if you don't find an engine it will be worth the experience.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Cool. Thanks. I will probably do this. Just a of a trip. I was judging by their website.
IanSan5653@reddit
Their website doesn't list anywhere near everything they have. Just the nicest stuff.
FarAwaySailor@reddit
Good on you for trying to learn, but the chances of you having to replace a piston-ring at anchor so you can motor into a harbour are 0 - so engine rebuild skills aren't really going to help you.
Having to replace some filters to get the engine running again so you can motor into harbour is quite common. So servicing skills are far more useful.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
I don't fear leaning servicing skills. Even on the fly. I do not expect to rebuild a blown diesel main while bobbing around and then motor myself in. However, having a newly rebuilt engine in place shortly after purchase, or being in a position to know I can rebuilt it, is important to my peace of mind.
FarAwaySailor@reddit
Your priorities are a bit confused, because you don't have a boat yet. Needing to rebuild your engine is not going to be the thing that sinks your boat or prevents you getting into a safe harbour. You could even put 'rebuild engine' on the boat's to do list, it's just unlikely to reach the top for a long time.
Instead of spending the time and effort on this, I would spend the time and effort on finding your boat. Once you have it, the things that are more important than rebuilding the engine will make themselves known.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Probably correct. My personal curiosity is probably not a good enough motivation to incur this time and expense vs. other areas.
HelicopterUpbeat5199@reddit
I have a defunct diesel on my 24 ft sailboat. I use an 8hp outboard. Someday I want to pull out the diesel and get rid of it. If you want to come out to the Seattle area and pull the thing out of my boat, you're welcome to it.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
*chuckling* - Yeah, that is a bit of a drive. The trend seems to be parallel hybrid. Which would be wonderful, but the expense it incredible. Some of the replies here are giving me pause. As to whether or not I really need to do this.
HelicopterUpbeat5199@reddit
Yeah, life will throw you many broken things to fix. Congratulations if you need to go looking for them!
nomadicsailor81@reddit
Check your local community college she see if they have classes on small desiels. Perhaps not the awnser topper looking for, but perhaps something to look into.
InvideoSilenti@reddit (OP)
Already tried. Will continue looking but I don't see anything so far.