Noam Chomsky Has Been Proved Right • The writer’s new argument for left-wing foreign policy has earned a mainstream hearing.
Posted by Naurgul@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 339 comments
For more than half a century, Noam Chomsky has been arguably the world’s most persistent, uncompromising, and intellectually respected critic of contemporary U.S. foreign policy, seeking to expose Washington’s costly and inhumane approach to the rest of the world, an approach he believes has harmed millions and is contrary to the United States’ professed values. As co-author Nathan J. Robinson writes in the preface, The Myth of American Idealism was written to “draw insights from across [Chomsky’s] body of work into a single volume that could introduce people to his central critiques of U.S. foreign policy.” It accomplishes that task admirably.
The central target of the book is the claim that U.S. foreign policy is guided by the lofty ideals of democracy, freedom, the rule of law, human rights, etc. For those who subscribe to this view, the damage the United States has sometimes inflicted on other countries was the unintended and much regretted result of actions taken for noble purposes and with the best of intentions.
For Chomsky and Robinson, these claims are nonsense. Not only did the young American republic fulfill its Manifest Destiny by waging a genocidal campaign against the indigenous population, but it has since backed a bevy of brutal dictatorships, intervened to thwart democratic processes in many countries, and waged or backed wars that killed millions of people in Indochina, Latin America, and the Middle East, all while falsely claiming to be defending freedom, democracy, human rights, and other cherished ideals. U.S. officials are quick to condemn others when they violate international law, but they refuse to join the International Criminal Court, the Law of the Sea Treaty, and many other global conventions. Nor do they hesitate to violate the United Nations Charter themselves.
The record of hypocrisy recounted by Chomsky and Robinson is sobering and convincing. No open-minded reader could absorb this book and continue to believe the pious rationales that U.S. leaders invoke to justify their bare-knuckled actions.
The book is less persuasive when it tries to explain why U.S. officials act this way. Chomsky and Robinson argue that U.S. foreign policy is largely the servant of corporate interests—the military-industrial complex, energy companies, and “major corporations, banks, investment firms. The picture is more complicated than they suggest. For starters, when corporate profits and national security interests clash, the former often lose out. Also, other great powers have acted in much the same way, inventing their own elaborate moral justifications. This behavior preceded the emergence of modern corporate capitalism.
Why do Americans tolerate policies that are costly, often unsuccessful, and morally horrendous? Their answer, which is generally persuasive, is twofold. First, ordinary citizens lack the political mechanisms to shape policy. Second, government institutions work overtime to “manufacture consent” by classifying information, prosecuting leakers, lying to the public, and refusing to be held accountable. Having written about these phenomena myself, I found their portrait of how the foreign-policy establishment purveys and defends its world view to be broadly accurate.
Despite some reservations, The Myth of American Idealism is a valuable work that provides an able introduction to Chomsky’s thinking. Indeed, if I were asked whether a student would learn more about U.S. foreign policy by reading this book or by reading a collection of the essays that current and former U.S. officials occasionally write in journals such as Foreign Affairs or the Atlantic, Chomsky and Robinson would win hands down.
I wouldn’t have written that last sentence when I began my career 40 years ago. I’ve been paying attention, however, and my thinking has evolved as the evidence has piled up. It is regrettable but revealing that a perspective on U.S. foreign policy once confined to the margins of left-wing discourse in the United States is now more credible than the shopworn platitudes that many senior U.S. officials rely on to defend their actions.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
It’s kind of insane our country is so naive and brainwashed that we think we actually invade countries for freedom and democracy and the bad things that happen along the way are just oopsies and not the entire point. And then the people who reveal this reality to us, who are very smart people to be sure, are heralded as geniuses for describing basic imperialism. I can only imagine what people that exist outside of an American information environment think of this being seen as revelation by some in the American elite. The people who have the institutional power, work in government, and write in Foreign Policy magazine really believe their own propaganda, but after the latest failed war maybe the people that are using material analysis to understand the world actually have a point.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
It's an opinion piece and your comment is just an opinion of what "we" think and what other vague, amorphous, groups of people think. "material analysis"
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
I mean there’s a clear elite opinion on foreign policy that doesn’t need to be described by me and is laid out in the article. The fact that there is a highly educated, highly paid person, who’s job it is to inform people of the reality of geopolitics that truly believed in American exceptionalism for decades is an indictment on our education system and his class. That elite opinion is taught to people in school and is clearly what a lot of people in America think.
Like ask a person why we want Ukraine to be part of NATO or why we are giving them weapons. They are going to ignore the cynical reasons which they aren’t informed of in the news media and talk about America protecting a small nation against a bigger nation. However, I think a lot of people are questioning that narrative now that we are openly supporting Israeli expansionism and colonialism.
jackofnac@reddit
I think it’s important to recognize nuance on the topic in Ukraine. I think the United States has often supported good causes for bad reasons, or picked and chosen their good causes to support because of ulterior benefits. That’s how I see Ukraine - not many clearer justified causes in the world right now than Ukraine fighting to protect its sovereignty against a wannabe fascist regime. The US supporting that cause, conveniently because Russia is a geopolitical foe and threatens American influence in Europe, does not make the cause itself a bad one.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
I think if you look at it only from 2022 or 2014 you can see it as American self interests aligning with the moral good. However, there is a longer history here of NATO expansion and Russian/Soviet and US tensions.
One of the big issues is Bush withdrew from the ABM treaty and Trump withdrew from the INF, both of which had decreased the likelihood of nuclear war in Europe. Bush in 2008 also announced he would expand NATO to Ukraine and Georgia which are on the border with Russia. This would mean NATO nukes and troops could be stationed on the border. There is also the issue of the Maidan Revolution where a pro-Russian elected government was ousted with the help of far right Ukrainians (maybe overstated?).
I think you can still make the argument that a Russian invasion was wrong, which I would say so, and it makes sense to support Ukraine. But, I think if America doesn’t get involved in Ukraine there wouldn’t be a war. Every time NATO got one country closer, Russia protested and wanted to negotiate an end to expansion, but the US ignored it. That isn’t to say that Russia is blameless and it wasn’t unjustly meddling in Ukraine itself, but that’s Ukraine’s neighbor —the truth is it will have to find an accommodation with Russia somehow.
TommyYez@reddit
I'm the Budapest memorandum, Russia agreed to the post Soviet borders and Ukraine agreed to give up their nuclear arsenal. That should end every discussion about this. If Ukraine still had their arsenal, pseudo non sensical reasons which not even Russia gave for invasion would have been dismissed immediately, Russia wouldn't have invaded.
jackofnac@reddit
Of course - even with Ukraine there is no side wholly good and wholly bad. But let me ask you this? Why have Eastern European countries been clamoring for NATO membership? Every one of them know without western protection they are likely to be another Chechnya.
Without sounding like I’m pretending American imperialism is any more noble, Russia has largely brought these issues upon themselves.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Well I think Chechnya is different because it was a part of Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union, but there are other examples you could point to for sure like Transnistria. I can see why eastern Europeans would want to join, but I think NATO should have known its limits when Russia threatened to invade twice and eventually committed to it. There are probably some other things to think about too when it comes to the economic transition and the rise of right wing governments post-1991, but I think I mostly agree with you. The transition away from the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact was very messy.
PerunVult@reddit
Chamberlain would be proud of your policy of selling out other people.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Inshallah. So you think Russia is going to invade the rest of Europe? Do you want European boots on the ground to start WWIII?
PerunVult@reddit
So, you think hitler will invade rest of Europe after annexing Czechoslovakia?
Do you want British boots on the ground to start ~~WWII~~ another Great War?
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
So you are going to enlist to serve in the next nuclear war? Many young Ukrainian men don’t want to fight and I don’t blame them it looks awful. I don’t know how you think Ukraine is going to win here. They are putting old men on the frontline. Putin may be bad, but he is also not Hitler, he’s just not.
PerunVult@reddit
It will be hard to do, considering I will be dead due to ruzzian first strike if WWIII scenario you insist on, happens. And, boy, you do your BEST to make it happen.
It WOULDN'T be so awful if allies didn't trickle equipment and capabilities. Thanks for concern over escalation, hand wringers like you and penny pinchers it's way worse than it had any business. And THAT'S what's emboldening ruzzia. Same as how lack of enforcement of Versailles treaty, no decisive reaction to annexation of Austria or Czechoslovakia made WWII ineviteable, YOU are working as hard as you can to MAKE WWIII inevitable.
There is and all long has been only one way to prevent WWIII. By giving Ukraine weapons they need to defeat the invasion. Drip-feeding gear and restricting uses over escalation concerns only makes WWIII more likely.
Their methods are the same. Parallels are obvious.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Dude you are ODing on Ukraine War propaganda. It's physically impossible for you to spell Russia without 2 'z's like its 2022 again. Just make peace, even if they remove all the restrictions on Ukraine's weapons, Russia still has 3 times the population. I don't think its possible to take back territory now. I'm sure that's also the point of slow walking the weapons, the US wants to drag the war out as long as possible to bleed Russia. Putin is the same as Hitler? The most you can say about Ukraine is he is doing cultural erasure not genocide. The modern day comparison to Hitler is Netanyahu. You're not a serious person man, I don't know what expected from a guy named Perun when I'm talking about Ukraine.
MoreOfAnOvalJerk@reddit
Are you personally witnessing what happens in wither Gaza or Ukraine? There’s an insane amount of misinformation on both sides right now, especially on the anti-israel side. The anti-israel stance has been more or less co-opted by russia as one of the mechanisms to drum up trump support and take away biden support.
Trump is a sympathizer/puppet for Putin. Russia has also implemented the most sophisticated and successful psyops probably ever, managing to convince several countries to self destruct without having to shoot a single bullet (brexit as well as trump getting elected twice)
Any news/opinions/comments that are pro russia or favourable to putin’s agenda, need to be taken much more critically by default.
I dont disagree at all with you that Netanyahu is an awful person. He’s not causing remotely the same kind of global damage that Putin is though.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Blaming Russia for Trump and Brexit is the Democrats and Labour’s way to blame someone else than themselves for the disasters in their country. The rot is within American and British society, it isn’t coming from an outside force. People have hated the neoliberal policies of Clinton and Harris or of Thatcherite Conservatives and New Labour for a long time. This is the response to that.
What is something that is misinfo on the pro-Palestine side? Palestinians don’t have a propaganda apparatus while Israel has one of the most sophisticated propaganda apparatuses in the world. I’m seeing direct video of exploded Palestinian kids while Israel is trying to present Israeli soccer hooligans initiating a race riot against Arabs in Amsterdam as a pogrom against Jews. The US is even spreading Israeli misinfo with Biden echoing talking points directly from the Israeli government. You have this completely backwards. All Palestinians have are their camera phones.
The things I learned about post Cold War Russia come from PBS, John Mearsheimer, Ian Shapiro, and Timothy Snyder. I haven’t been looking deeply at the war in Ukraine for a while because both sides’ propaganda make it actually impossible to know what is happening, I gave up after a year. All I know is that Russia has gained a lot of ground on the map and each Ukrainian counter offensive is a failure.
MoreOfAnOvalJerk@reddit
The rot argument only goes so far until you realize that about half the american population are convinced of “facts” from an alternative reality - many can even be directly fact checked themselves.
It’s not the political leaders that are causing this mind rot and deception. It’s targeted misinformation campaigns executed by sociopathic Americans as well as hostile nations like Russia and China.
Tiktok right wing misinfo went up dramatically prior to the election, coincidentally supporting the guy who said he won’t ban tiktok.
Putin’s greatest success has been convincing Americans of mistruths to divide themselves and self destruct. In many ways, this reminds me of Austria’s greatest success, convincing the world that Hitler was German and Mozart was Austrian.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
When I talk about rot I’m not even talking about social issues mainly, I’m talking about economic issues. Neoliberalism has been the reigning economic ideology since Reagan and Thatcher The ostensibly left wing parties in Britain and America has year after year caved to those policies which increase inequality and give working people a worse standard living than previous generations.
That is the rot I’m talking about and it doesn’t take a misinformation campaign from a foreign power to do it. Even if you think the conflicts in these countries are manufactured, they are being stoked primarily by actors in those countries.
Americans are right to be angry because life sucks right now and no one is even promising to make it materially better. The only problem is it isn’t marginalized communities that are to blame as misinformation would want you to believe, it is neoliberal politicians and the wealthy.
MoreOfAnOvalJerk@reddit
There is tons of misinformation economic wise. Covid impacted all countries and America has recovered better than most. Grocery stores double dipping on a recovered economy but not lowering their prices is not a Biden problem and Trump is not going to address that either. Of course, that doesn’t stop all the (very successful) attack campaigns addressed at him and the convinced hordes of people who voted for Trump thinking that’s how they’d get cheaper eggs at the checkout.
Globalism and capitalistic greed have caused American manufacturing jobs to greatly shrink, hurting blue collar workers. The misinformation in this case is that the dems are the sole supporters of this regime and that Trump is going to overturn it. Not only will he not overturn it, he’ll help capitalists further erode workers rights by removing laws that enable unions to form and negotiate, as well as regulations and laws that ensure employers must maintain safe work environments.
In terms of international trade and deals, he’s open for business. I don’t mean he’s making America open for business. No, he, personally, is open to giving you access to American resources and intel if you bribe him.
Despite all this, all the corruption, all the blatant bribe taking, all the absence of justice, he still won both the presidency and popular vote.
The reason is misinformation campaigns that have convinced people that he’ll fix their economic situation. That he’s not corrupt. That only dems (who happen to be anti russia) are responsible for neoliberalism, globalism, and all the blue collar woes.
If Americans weren’t so misinformed, Trump would not stand a chance. Dems would have been forced to put up a better candidate much sooner as well.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
No one in America is comparing there situation to other countries they’ve never been to or thought about before. They make a simple calculation: am I doing better under the incumbent or am I not? And they vote from there. Inflation is hitting people hard and that is real. The average working class person isn’t an amateur economist.
The grocery prices are a Biden problem, he may not have the votes in Congress to get a price freeze done, but he should have used the bully pulpit and tried. Also Kamala in the last weeks, when it was too late began running on that. That attitude that it’s not his job to improve people’s living conditions, including stopping price gouging is why the Democrats lost.
Most polling and interviews suggest that people don’t like Trump as a person, but voted for him because if the blue team isn’t lowering prices then maybe red team will.
onespiker@reddit
He is an IR American offensive realist. His mindset is exclusively all about American empire building and to keep it unchallenged.
His main ideas after the cold war was that USA should make Japan and Germany thier enemies now and get close to Russia.
That American should give up all of Europe to Russia so that USA and Russia could be friends against China.
onlysoccershitposts@reddit
"Why did you tell daddy that, when he threatened to punch you over it twice before? It's your own fault that he hit you."
RollinThundaga@reddit
We're talking about the United States here- looking at it as a bad actor on the arc of many decades is inaccurate, our government changes interests too drastically between administrations to chain together more than the most recent decade or so as any coherent chain of actions on our part.
The fifty years of the Cold War was the extreme exception in this regard as considered from the standpoint of our history as a country, rather than the rule that the Chimsky camp makes it out to be.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
I think you meant to reply to my first comment so I hope I understand what you were trying to say:
In my opinion you just aren’t familiar with the lesser known aspects of American history. In addition we can’t ignore the well known and larger foundational history of settler colonialism that the country is built on that lasted from 1607 to around the 1890s and slavery. Usually that fact is just taken as a necessary evil or thought of as a relic of the past when the US still reveres the leaders that established those systems.
The lesser known aspects I’m referring to would be like Fillibusteros in the mid 1800s that tried to conquer new slave states in Latin America, our conquests in the Spanish American war, Yankee Imperialism in the Caribbean even in the supposedly isolationist days before WWI.
Those pre-WWI interventions were done at the behest of big businesses like the United Fruit Company even more nakedly than is done more recently. There is a clear connection between the Banana Republics of yore and regimes we helped support and installed in the Cold War. We still do coups today like in Bolovia, Evo Morales is thought to have been ousted with the help of the United States to get better deals for lithium, famously with Elon Musk’s public approval.
RockstepGuy@reddit
He did, Ukraine and Georgia tried to get in and applied as a package, they were.. denied entry to NATO because their constitutions didn't allign with what NATO wants.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
It’s always the US’ final decision to add a country to NATO. It’s the most powerful member by far and has historically been the only country that fully funds its army. The biggest reason NATO expanded in 2004 was that Bush wanted more countries to join his invasion of Iraq and in exchange they joined NATO. Ukraine and Georgia were also a part of that “Coalition of the Willing.”
Georgia didn’t get in because Russia invaded them, I think their membership is still considered to be deferred indefinitely. If they referred to an issue with their constitution it was probably a face saving measure.
bxzidff@reddit
Russia has done more to expand NATO than the US ever has
Icy-Cry340@reddit
That was necessary to put MAD to rest - we need to be able to fight wars with major powers again and win.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
What is the clear elite opinion? I’d like to hear that; you’ve already described to us our opinions.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
So more opinions about opinions.
“material analysis”; the great science
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
When he wrote “indispensable nation,” the author was literally quoting Joe Biden, the President of the United States and Madeleine Albright, Bill Clinton’s Secretary of State. Like what do you want me to say man?
Yes, material analysis versus liberal idealism. Why did we invade Iraq? is it because we wanted freedom and democracy or is it because we wanted to weaken a regional power and give Dick Cheney’s former company Halliburton millions in contracts rebuilding the country?
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
So no one thought of Saddam as a regional threat?
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Yes they did consider him a regional threat, but that isn’t liberal idealism that is realism. They didn’t care if Iraq was democratic or not, it was too powerful. And as we know by the time of the 2003 invasion Iraq wasn’t as big of a threat after the First Gulf War and sanctions. It also famously didn’t have WMDs. Even if a country is your rival, a liberal international order doesn’t allow you to pre-emptively strike another nation.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
You are the one pigeon-holing opinions into other peoples mouths.
So the actions in Iraq weren’t driven by liberal idealism or freedom and democracy but in actuality they were realist actions? Shocking.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
You were speaking as though you disagreed with me. And you know that although the invasion was carried out for cynical reasons it was called “Operation Iraqi Freedom.”
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
The entire premise of the invasion of Iraq was the threat posed by Saddam’s regime.
intelligent_dildo@reddit
Let’s hear from mister intellectual here about all the real threat saddam posed. Bunch of morons in this threat talking out of their asses.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
There are a multitude of reasons for believing Saddam was a threat, WMD being one of many reasons given. Whether or not you agree with Saddam being a threat is not the point.
intelligent_dildo@reddit
Are these WMDs with us in the room right now?
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Wow, a parroted tired cliche. I would have never expected it from the guy completely and utterly missing the point.
Beatboxingg@reddit
Are the wmds in the room with us now?
Wooden-Agent2669@reddit
Which WMDs?
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Chemical, biological, nuclear, etc.
Is that kind of stuff about freedom and democracy?
10000Lols@reddit
Lol
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
I’m in sweats searing up a pork chop right now but thank you
10000Lols@reddit
Lol
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Chimichurri too. Langley wishes they had me.
10000Lols@reddit
Lol
Wooden-Agent2669@reddit
https://govinfo.library.unt.edu/wmd/report/report.html#overview
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
What can I not do 20 years later? We are agreeing that the public reason given for the invasion of Iraq was the regional threat of Saddam's regime-- not freedom and democracy.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
The threat was presented as Iraq attacking the US, specifically with WMDs. “We don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.” It was a made up threat. Even though this might not be directly “freedom and democracy” related, it still relates to American idealism. America would be fighting an evil country that if left standing would attack it first.
The neoconservative rationale behind the invasion was explicitly explained as promoting freedom and democracy. We were supposed to topple Sadam, enact a de-Nazification (de-Baathification), maybe do a new Marshall Plan, and boom we would get a new Democratic Middle Eastern ally just like Germany went from adversary to ally post-1945.
AyyLimao42@reddit
No. It was just pro US rhetoric. The fact that you're even engaging in this discussion shows how brainwashed Americans are.
Who is the threat after all? Iraq or the ones invading countries across the globe and facing next to zero consequences?
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Why does questioning opinionated nonsense make me brainwashed?
traversecity@reddit
Have a peek at the loan collaterals and such for Ukraine, the multinationals scooped up that breadbasket and mineral wealth. A lot, not all of the US motivation for prompting Russia’s actions are a wealth grab.
All good until Russia is pushed too far into a corner and begins using battle field nuclear weapons. The clock is ever so close to midnight.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Yeah, I mentioned Ukraine in another comment. Lindsay Graham, as most conservative lawmakers do, uncouthly blurted out that Ukraine has mineral wealth that he wants the US to control. Democrats have the same intentions but they phrase it better, using that freedom and democracy language a bit more. The weapons sales to Ukraine are also really good for stock-prices and such. You can even sell it as “Military Keynesianism.”
There were two chances where America and NATO could have promised to leave Ukraine in exchange for something that Russia could give up. Even though they have miraculously held for this long, I can’t see them winning the war.
303uru@reddit
You’d have to have had your head in the sand for all of American history to not see that the “we” majority had thought exactly this.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
I’d like to see evidence for that. I don’t think you could find a single poll where “freedom & democracy” was at the top (or even anywhere near the top) of American’s minds as the reason for the invasion of Iraq.
I’m having a bunch of people argue with me about WMDs instead, kind of proving my point 🤷♂️
Beatboxingg@reddit
True.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
I made it very easy for you to show that if you wanted to, but here you are with nothing
Beatboxingg@reddit
you dont know how silly youre being which is hilarious. the sad silly not the fun kind
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
> here you are with nothing
BakedOnions@reddit
it's not opinion if it's backed by an amalgamation of historical events
SeatKindly@reddit
I do want to throw this down because I largely agree with Chomsky’s analysis from a top-down meta perspective. He isn’t wrong, those at the helm have by and largely done everything they do in spite of the values that individuals such as myself do genuinely hold dear.
It’d take me hours to give a critique that captures my frustration in a meaningful conversational manner, and unfortunately I have assignments due today, so I’m typing this during a small break. Unfortunately for now it has to be heavily, heavily simplified. I do hope it sparks some meaningful conversation that I can come back to once I have more time.
I think that while Chomsky is indeed correct in his assessment, he is also critically flawed. Global stability as a whole is largely thanks due to freedom of maritime movements brought about by the US forcing the ocean to remain uncontested and open for all nations. Were this not the case significant portions of the ocean would be claimed and managed as territorial waters by which blockades and forms of state sanctioned piracy would likely abound. These types of manipulations and actions lead to violent outcomes, or at the very least a means by which to manipulate and control lesser states.
Likewise the establishment of the UN and NATO have served as a mechanism to both maintain western Europe’s strength, but also give them the means to air grievances in a manner more consistent with the democratic principles we hold dear. Without them, would Germany have recovered post-war? Would the continent fallen into varying wars again en masse? Would the EU have ever taken shape?
Additionally, while our interventions are largely destabilizing in nature there are dozens of cases where the US has entered as a stabilizing force. Korea of course is the most notable example, but in modern years I’d like to ask what would happen had the US and its coalition not aided in the fight against ISIL/ISIS? I’d also like to remind people that while the US failed its campaign in Afghanistan for… a plethora of reasons. The women of Kabul were getting educations and rights they hadn’t seen in a century because of our presence there.
All this is simplified, and I’d love to offer more detail, more examples, and naturally significant evidence to support my point. However I’m short of time now and simply wanted to get the gears turning. Thus, I’ll end with this. Chomsky is right, the US often is selfish, ignorant, and by and large hypocritical. Yet, where we go good does tend to flourish in some form or another. It happens far too consistently to be called a fluke, so I’d largely say that there are two political classes steering the US. One is of course the ones Chomsky criticizes. The others are far lower on the pole, but capable of influencing decisions on the ground in a location to spread the ideals and beliefs that we as a citizenship would like to say we believe. (Even if I’m deeply upset with my countrymen at present).
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Thanks for the reply. I don’t think that everything the US does is bad, I was saying it acts on mainly non-idealistic reasons and that should be obvious to people like the author.
I think the freedom of movement argument is unfalsifiable because we don’t live in a multi-polar world. In a multi polar world a regional hegemony would do the job locally. That is going to be an eventuality anyway as America has to pull back from its commitments and other countries get stronger. However, I think you can argue that smaller SE Asian countries altruistically benefit from the US Navy’s actions limiting China’s encroachment on their waters.
The UN is probably as good as we can get for now, but the critique is that the US selectively applies resolutions and the law, allowing it to be imposed on its enemies, but not itself or its allies. I think there are some benefits to US hegemony, like in the Cold War the US coerced weakened European powers to give up colonies to stop them going to the Soviet camp. However, we know in the same period the US was carrying out coups and even supporting continued colonial rule if the independence movement was communist like in French Indochina or South Africa.
I think Europe definitely needed a way to stay secure post WWII, but NATO and the response, the Warsaw Pact created the possibility of nuclear war on the continent. NATO in the post Cold War era has also destroyed Libya and the prospect of expansion precipitated war in Ukraine. I honestly think NATO is not working for the average European with heightened gas prices and increased refugees from Libya, Syria, Ukraine, and Afghanistan.
I think Korea is more complicated than it seems because the right wing government in South Korea was mass killing socialists before the North invaded. The division wasn’t supposed to be permanent. The South was also ironically the poorer part and under military rule, its only in the 80s that things got better.
ISIS wouldn’t exist without the 2003 American invasion and later US intervention in Syria.
It’s good that the women of Afghanistan got an education, but we supported the mujahideen in the 80s that replaced the Soviet backed government. The pro-Soviet government was also educating people. The Taliban’s creation was facilitated by US, the Pakistani ISI, and Saudi money.
Super_Duper_Shy@reddit
Those are good points about Korea. I'll also add that the US is the one who decided to split the country in two.
And not only did the right wing government in the South kill a lot of socialists, they and the US destroyed the democratic and socialist reforms that the Korean people had started creating for themselves after Japan was defeated.
So I wouldn't call the US a stabilizing force in Korea in any way.
onespiker@reddit
The poorer vs richer wasn't much to do with either north or south pre 1950s. Japanese had invested the most factories in the North because that were most of the recources were extracted.
The North was also under a pretty harsh military control apparatus but yes they were indeed richer until the 70s.
The North Korea got more extreme and isolated because of the war but also because Sovietunion was trying to take control and tried to coup it aswell.
Super_Duper_Shy@reddit
Most of the buildings and infrastructure in North Korea were destroyed by the US, were there still enough Japanese-built factories left standing to make a big difference?
I don't think I've ever heard of the Soviet Union trying to coup NK.
Aromatic-Teacher-717@reddit
But America bad.
Beatboxingg@reddit
Yes.
bjran8888@reddit
Modesty leads progress, arrogance makes you drop behind
bxzidff@reddit
Tell that to the wolf warriors
bjran8888@reddit
China's economy is about the same size as the 27 countries of the EU combined, yet the EU only condescendingly blames China.
Who is humble and who is proud?
BorodinoWin@reddit
imagine being Chinese and lecturing on humility.
Don’t you have some fish to steal?
bjran8888@reddit
Laugh, I don't know what country you are from, but do you want the second most powerful country in the world to just take a beating and not fight back against you?
Just taking a beating and not fighting back is called cowardice, not modesty.
Who really started the confrontation in the first place?
Is it us, China?
BorodinoWin@reddit
Go on, demand that all nations recognize the updated 100 dash line putting the entire solar system in Chinese territorial waters.
Show us that famous Chinese humility by claiming sovereignty over the sun.
elitereaper1@reddit
China does not claim those things. Stop being a hyperbolic dumbass.
BorodinoWin@reddit
It’s a joke, being used as a communication device to highlight the fact that China (in all its humility) is literally stealing territory.
elitereaper1@reddit
No, they are claiming it like the other countries in the area. They are not alone in claiming territory. But okay. Let ignore the vietnam, Phillipines, Malaysia and all the others.
Terrible joke and delivery.
onespiker@reddit
Just look at the map and how ridiculous chinease claims are compared to the rest.
Thier claims have already thrown out in UN ones since the evidence doesn't exist.
BorodinoWin@reddit
The 2nd Thomas Shoal is completely within Phillipine national waters. China has no right to lay claim to it.
In addition, China is the only nation building military bases in the Spratleys, which forced the closer nations to lay claim or lose their sovereignty.
This entire mess is all China’s fault.
bjran8888@reddit
China has maintained this claim since 1949.
I'm curious as to how you rate the Biden administration, after all, he suddenly announced a dramatic expansion of his sovereignty claim of 1 million square kilometers in December of last year
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-12-22/us-claims-huge-chunk-of-seabed-amid-strategic-push-for-resources
BorodinoWin@reddit
That claim is based on international law regarding continental shelfs, and does not intrude upon other nations territorial claims.
Please stay on topic from now on.
bjran8888@reddit
Nice use of the double standard.
BorodinoWin@reddit
If China made a claim based on their continental shelf, as mandated by international law, I would call them humble.
China has made their claim based on their Empire’s territory, and their regional dominance.
this is not an act of humility, therefore China is a not a humble nation.
BorodinoWin@reddit
ah yes, stealing African and South American fish by the billions.
this is “fighting back” against the evil West.
bjran8888@reddit
You can talk about yourself, but how do you convince Latinos?
https://www.reddit.com/r/asklatinamerica/comments/1gt1s7m/what_your_opinion_regarding_perus_mega_port/
I look forward to you convincing them.
BorodinoWin@reddit
What does that have to do with anything?
This is a conversation about China’s lack of humility.
It doesn’t have anything to do with infrastructure projects in South America. 😂😂😂😂😂😂
bjran8888@reddit
ok
bxzidff@reddit
"luxury of criticizing China" true words of humility lol. You are hilarious. Seeing criticism as a luxury is the very opposite of humility. And it would be nice if in your response you actually addressed the wolf warrior diplomacy I mentioned, a form of diplomacy that is also the very opposite of humility
bjran8888@reddit
Are you saying that Europe is free to condescendingly criticize China and the third world regardless of the facts (or even to suck up to the US Democrats)?
Ok.
You probably know by now why the Western “free world order” is bankrupt in the third world.
BorodinoWin@reddit
What about the people who live overseas and can actually see the positive impact that US diplomacy has on the world?
I understand that the important events never make it into your tiktok algorithm, but what would you say to people who have first hand experience in witnessing positive development?
GloriousDawn@reddit
Europe here, what the fuck are you talking about ?
BorodinoWin@reddit
Why am I seeing this yap coming from the nation included in the Marshall plan and protected by NATO while only spending 1% on their military.
American diplomacy, eh
elitereaper1@reddit
I'm sure Israel is happy. They get weapons and protection to continue their genocide.
Yay for America and genocide Joe.
BorodinoWin@reddit
If you think Biden is encouraging genocide, just wait until January.
lol… just you wait.
The man who has sent billions of dollars in humanitarian and financial aid to Palestinians vs the man who wants Netanyahu to “finish the job”
elitereaper1@reddit
Under biden. Israel has received weapons and protection in the UN.
Also, biden has admitted he's a zionist. So there's that
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/i-am-zionist-how-joe-bidens-lifelong-bond-with-israel-shapes-war-policy-2023-10-21/
BorodinoWin@reddit
Like I said, just you wait…
just wait until Trump defunds USAID.
You will see the difference between tiktok telling you there is a genocide, and an actual one.
elitereaper1@reddit
Just tiktok?
Not the world aid workers, the american doctors, the Palestinian themselves. The various representatives at the UN.
don't worry. Both genocide joe and genocide trump can be genocidal.
At this moment. 40,000+ ppl have died under Biden and Lebanon attacked, Iran attacked.
BorodinoWin@reddit
world aid workers, american doctors, Palestinians, the entire UN…
all funded by American taxpayers through the Biden Administration.
You want to cry about evil Joe, feel free. But you will see the difference soon when NGO and humanitarian funding dries up.
Then, when an actual famine happens in Gaza, don’t come crying to me.
AnualSearcher@reddit
Geocentrism, Manifest Destiny, sh*t ton of nationalist propaganda... what could go wrong right?
NicodemusV@reddit
Lmao ironic coming from Portugal, sit down.
According_Elk_8383@reddit
Every country is nationalit, every country has geocentrism, and that’s not ”manifest destiny” is.
Typical Reddit comment.
AnualSearcher@reddit
Not even gonna answer the first two lol, but I have to ask, do you know what commas are and what their use is? Tsk tsk tsk
According_Elk_8383@reddit
I’m not sure how to answer that, considering my posts use them properly.
AnualSearcher@reddit
You clearly don't my friend. Apparently you can't understand when a comma is used to separate elements in a sentence/sequence.
According_Elk_8383@reddit
Im not really sure the response you’re looking for - you’re objectively wrong, and I can’t do anything to change that.
AnualSearcher@reddit
Do yourself a favor and go learn how punctuation works. Farewell.
According_Elk_8383@reddit
This post is ironic.
Mii009@reddit
Who is "we"???
jokinghazard@reddit
The people who re-elected Bush
Mii009@reddit
That was well over a decade ago, neocons have lost major favor in the republican party
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Americans
Surrounded-by_Idiots@reddit
And its coalition of the willing
Icy-Cry340@reddit
rhetoric for the plebs
imperialism is based, that's the real problem with these types' never-ending bitching
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Fuck yeah dude! Might makes right! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
bjran8888@reddit
Dude, the US is not the only powerful one!
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
Might makes right! 🇺🇸🇷🇺🇮🇱 I mean this is a thread about US foreign policy and he’s an American hog
bjran8888@reddit
ok
According_Elk_8383@reddit
Oh no please, explain when that wasn’t true - and what country does it better.
Jemerius_Jacoby@reddit
They can come closer than close, yeah Original they never will be Nobody does it better
_AutomaticJack_@reddit
"Manufacturing Consent" was a virtuoso performance, however the extent to which he fawns over non-western authoritarian regimes lethally undermined his credibility long before he got old and senile enough to say shit like "given how much Putin likes him, Trump might not be that bad..."
grizzlyfoshizzly@reddit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZslCx2nErI
Here's a brief interview with him from June 2023. You don't have to get more than 30 second in to hear him say that Trump running again will be "a disaster for the world for many reasons". Do you have a source to support him saying "Trump might not be that bad," because this took me a minute to find, and everything I've heard seen him say on the matter for close to a decade has been about how Trump would be the worst leader the US could choose on climate, peace, and many other issues.
_AutomaticJack_@reddit
I'll see if I can dig it up....
IIRC it was in the context of the horror show that is the Clintonite wing of the Dem party, so definitely more relative than absolute, but still cringe....
grizzlyfoshizzly@reddit
Any luck?
_AutomaticJack_@reddit
All of the responses I've gotten for my searches thus far are about him using praise of Trump as a part of his condemnation of of Biden's Ukraine war policy. It's a similar set of keywords and a similar rhetorical device and newer so it squats stop the memeosphere pretty roundly if I have some time tomorrow during a deployment might take another crack at it, but don't hold your breath...
grizzlyfoshizzly@reddit
I Googled "chomsky comdemns biden's war policy" and the first result is Noam Chomsky: Biden’s Foreign Policy Is Largely Indistinguishable From Trump’s. I'm gonna drop this b/c I'm pretty sure you're just fibbing
_AutomaticJack_@reddit
I kinda figured that's how this was going to go, especially since I don't have any real time to devote to this tangent, but I figured I'd at least make a good faith effort. Have a nice evening!
hazza-sj@reddit
Oh dear, did he really say that? That is bad.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Chompsy's got some good criticisms but you need to remember to never actually cite him. Because his genocide denial pretty much eviscerates him as an actual credible source.
He's the original "America bad therefore, people we bombing good" thinker that pretty much all tankies are nowadays.
The fact that he's still willing to die on the hill that the US intervened in Yugoslavia because "we were trying to destroy the last socialist regime in Europe", and not that there were multiple ongoing genocides in the region has seriously hurt his credibility
ZeistyZeistgeist@reddit
And, as a Croat, this is why I cannot take Chomsky seriously. Consistent denial of the Srebrenica genocide is what made me dislike Chomsky, in a similiar manner of Hasan Piker being an apsolute buffon during the opening stages of the Ukranie-Russo war; their entire worldview was them going full "MURICA BAAAD" and blatantly ignoring the multitude of issues that, guess what, had little to nothing to do with America.
That take made him the patron saint of Yugonostalgics who yearn for the old Yugoslavia days, quoting Chomsky and wholeheartedly believing that Yugoslav Wars were some secret CIA plot to destroy Yugoslavia (ignoring the fact that Tito's death massively destabilized Yugoslavia, there were already ideological cracks from both Belgrade student protests of 1967, the 1973 Croatian Spring, Yugoslav economy being in freefall for much of the 1980s with inflation skyrocketing to 3500%}. It also made him a patron saint of Serbian pro-Russian, anti-EU/NATO/West skeptics and ultranationalist Greater Serbia fanatics. Sure, some of you might be saying "but he was misunderstood, he said he just did not AGREE with the definition of genocide" - the very fact that such people hold him in reverence should tell you that even if he was misunderstood in your view, how do you justify this?
Chomsky's problem is the same as it would be for Hasan today - people who are so hyperfocused (for better and for worse) on the wrongs of American imperialistic policies, they still have such an Americo-centric focus on the world that they are just the opposite side of the coin of people who glorify and approve of American imperialism - infantilizing other, smaller nations and cultures and turning it into a supposed case study of American imperialism, unable to accept that NOT ALL CONFLICTS GLOBALLY ARE THE FAULT OR RESULT OF AMERICA. And frankly, his view of the US intervening Yugoslavia to destroy the "last socialist regime" is insulting - we would destroy ourselves, no problem, and sometimes, shit like that happens.
Maardten@reddit
Nail on the head. I hate it when people talk about countries as nothing more than pawns in some global geopolitical chess-match, ignoring the fact that these countries have their own identities, histories and motivations.
Like when people say 'Nato/EU should stop encroaching on Russia'
Excuse me? Why would the people of Ukraine/Sweden/Poland/The baltics/Finland be able to make that decision for themselves?
anders_hansson@reddit
It's not a decision you can make on your own, and the decision is not made in a vacuum where you can completely disregard geopolitical realities.
If you want some perspective, try imagining Mexico saying "We'll join a nuclear deterrence alliance with China", and that the US response is a resounding "Every country has the right to determine their own national security".
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Chomsky never denied a genocide. He criticized the media for using the term inappropriately, a bit like you are doing right now, to manufacture consent for war.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
He definitely denied a genocide, he also denied Pol Pot was doing anything bad and it was all propaganda.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
You're gonna have to provide a source for that. In the years that people have been shitting on Chomsky for what they claim he has said, not one person has been able to produce a quote attributable to Chomsky where he has denied any genocide or war crimes.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
In the article, Chomsky and Herman described the book by Gareth Porter and George Hildebrand, as a “carefully documented study of the destructive American impact on Cambodia and the success of the Cambodian revolutionaries in overcoming it, giving a very favorable picture of their programs and policies, based on a wide range of sources”. Chomsky also attacked testimonials from refugees regarding the massacres, calling into question the claims of hundreds of thousands killed. Chomsky does this on the basis of pointing to other first hand accounts that show killings more in the hundreds or thousands. He does not deny the existence of any executions outright. According to historian Peter Maguire, for many years Chomsky served as a “hit man” against media outlets which criticized the Khmer Rouge regime.
He constantly downplayed the severity of what happened in Cambodia as just propaganda when it was happening.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
So he has never actually denied any genocide, as you claim. As a linguist, he has questioned the use of the term by mainstream media when there was very little evidence to back up that claim.
Chomsky was a big supporter of the Communist regimes in Asia, which to me is a ridiculous position to take as a self-proclaimed "anarcho-syndicalist". He arrogantly chose to continue supporting them even when their atrocities were brought to light. Chomsky can be rightly criticized for many things without having to invent positions he has never taken or distort the ones he has.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
That’s denying a genocide. He’s denying that the large scale massacres are even happening so of course he’s denying a genocide.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
Where? What were his words, exactly? I'm not interested in someone else's interpretation of what he said or meant.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
You can dispute what is claimed in my quote but it’s obvious this is what he said. You’ve admitted it yourself already. He was constantly downplaying what was happening in Cambodia as it was happening.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
He was questioning the reports because the media had been publishing outright lies about the wars in Korea and Vietnam. He, rightly or wrongly, blamed U.S. foreign policy for the massacres because the U.S. military had been recruiting Vietnamese civilians for infiltration and subversion operations, creating an extremely dangerous atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia in the region.
I think he was wrong. People tend to see the world as a reflection of themselves. He was naive in his belief that people are generally good, as most "good" people do. People are whatever you allow them to be and the atrocities in Cambodia and elsewhere prove that.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
Yes that’s denying a genocide and being wrong about what is propaganda and what is real. That’s the issue everyone is bringing up that the guy who is speaking as an authority in what’s propaganda got it totally wrong in the face of genocide.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
No. Denying a genocide after the fact is one thing. Questioning reports of atrocities being carried out before the full picture is known is something completely different. Nobody knew it was a genocide until many years later when investigators could freely enter the country and carry out their investigations.
In this regard, he was correct in questioning the truth of the reports because they were only based on witness accounts. How many times have we seen baseless claims of genocide in Ukraine or China? This is why Chomsky was so resistant to the use of the word in early reporting, before anyone had any concrete evidence of what was going on. Now it is being thrown around so much that it is beginning to lose all meaning.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
There was an abundance of information saying a genocide was happening, he just incorrectly painted it all as propaganda which is ironic given he built his career on calling out propaganda. It is a massive smear on his legacy.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
It's easy to look back and pass judgement on those who may have taken an incorrect position due to bias or past experience.
You still have yet to provide a single quote attributable to Chomsky regarding Cambodia or genocide.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Bro, he 100% denied genocide in both Cambodia and Yugoslavia
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
An excerpt from a rather scathing critique of Chomsky's position on Cambodia, published in 1984.
https://newcriterion.com/article/censoring-aoe20thacentury-culturea-the-case-of-noam-chomsky/
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
Barnes discussed the Khmer Rouge with Chomsky and “the thrust of what he [Chomsky] said was that there was no evidence of mass murder” in Cambodia. Chomsky, according to Barnes, believed that “tales of holocaust in Cambodia were so much propaganda.”
CLE-local-1997@reddit
That's genocide denial. It literally no different than when modern fascists try to downplay the Holocaust,
Billych@reddit
The U.S. dropped more bombs on Cambodia than Japan, that atrocity is downplayed all the time despite literally leading to the Khmer Rogue takeover because of all the recruits from buring down the country side and killing half a million people. People like to leave the Khmer Rogue recruited basically on revenge and act like they popped out of the ground.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Ok? Yes the us played a role in tge rise of the khmer rouge.
They also gave them support after the Vietnamese invaded Cambodia.
Literally has nothing to do with genocidal denial
ToWriteAMystery@reddit
You should read up on Cambodia and Chomsky. I’ll wait for you to get back.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
I have. At least a bit more than the random nonsense posted here on reddit without any source or reference.
An excerpt from a rather scathing critique of Chomsky's position on Cambodia, published in 1984.
Chomsky has never actually denied that a large proportion of the population of Cambodia was murdered by the Khmers Rouges. He could not deny it. Instead, he has consistently tried to change the subject—to suggest that this is not the central issue of recent Cambodian history.
https://newcriterion.com/article/censoring-aoe20thacentury-culturea-the-case-of-noam-chomsky/
BorodinoWin@reddit
I couldn’t imagine being this delusional.
Quiet-Hawk-2862@reddit
He doesn't have a problem using the term inappropriately to manufacture consent for Iran's unending proxy wars against Israel though of course
gerkletoss@reddit
https://www.newstatesman.com/the-weekend-interview/2023/04/noam-chomsky-interview-ukraine-free-actor-united-states-determines
https://truthout.org/articles/chomsky-a-stronger-nato-is-the-last-thing-we-need-as-russia-ukraine-war-turns-1/
https://thebrownandwhite.com/2023/04/11/noam-chomsky-sparks-russia-ukraine-war-debate-the-brown-and-white/
https://chomsky.info/20220408/
borealisxdd@reddit
Bro you really believe this shit that you are saying? You intervened to secure a victor that suites you guys, and to make sure that the last socialist regime is toppled. Please man, do a favor to me and never believe you live in a country that does things out of the goodness of its heart, like intervening to stop multiple ongoing genocides.
Sincerely, former Yugoslavian
CLE-local-1997@reddit
XD
We intervened because you guys were massacring each other and it was a threat to Regional security and it only took us a few years to get off our ass and act like human beings.
Socialism died when the serbians attempted to seize control and centralize power. Then all the other republics and all the other people groups decided to just fuck off so they didn't want to live in greater Serbia and then the serbians decided what they couldn't gain through politics they would attempt to gain Through Blood and kicked off years of genocide.
No one said we did it all the goodness of our heart. we did this because destructive Regional Wars and widescale genocides cause Refugee crises and Regional instability.
And the funny thing is the peace agreement we secured kept Milošević in power XD. His own people overthrew him, years after
thegodfather0504@reddit
Thats the excuse they told you.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Were you not around back then? There was a massive Refugee crisis and calls from all sides of the political Spectrum and we still waited 3 years.
finalattack123@reddit
You are choosing to ignore a pretty large body of work because you found a single flaw.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
It’s a pretty damning flaw. To be a major critic of US foreign policy but have had denied and supported the genocides that US foreign policy opposed really invalidates your credibility. The guy has written a lot of good things but him as a person is not as legendary as people on the internet try and paint him.
finalattack123@reddit
I think people who seek to diminish his contribution will of course say this.
People make him legendary because of the accuracy of his statements and foresight.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
Well his statements and foresights haven’t been accurate all the time. To deny the genocides in Cambodia and Yugoslavia and claim it’s all propaganda is a pretty big fuck up, especially from the guy who is claiming to be an expert on what is or isn’t propaganda. This is why people want to diminish him from the pedestal that blind followers like yourself put him on.
finalattack123@reddit
He never said “it was all propaganda”
The fact you’d lie about that says a lot about your position.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
No he was saying that it was Western imperialist propaganda trying to paint the Communist regime as evil. That all the information and people saying it was happening were falsehoods pushed by America. You don’t even understand the criticisms of Chomsky. Do you think he was just unaware of what was being said?
finalattack123@reddit
That propaganda exaggerated them.
Which has been proven to happen countless times. Weapons of mass destruction. Babies in incubators being killed. All proven to be amplified lies pushed by the US government.
gerkletoss@reddit
Well his linguistics work is irrelevant in this context and everything else he does is garbage, so I'm not sure what you're referring to.
finalattack123@reddit
Didn’t read the article?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
A lifetime of denying and minimizing genocide, is not a "single flaw"
It demonstrates an academic, incapable of getting over his own bias, and calls into questions the objectivity of his scholarship.
" America bad, therfore anti-American is good" is shit thinking
finalattack123@reddit
Yes. But you seem that’s what you need to do.
Nothing wrong with being blindly loyal to your country.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Being blindly opposed to a country is no more good than being blindly loyal.
finalattack123@reddit
I’m not choosing to dismiss any information.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
I literally said my first comment there are good criticisms he made. So clearly I'm not either
magkruppe@reddit
it is telling that this is the top comment on an article discussing U.S. foreign policy. as the article states, his greatest contributions have been critiquing the outcomes of U.S. interventions, not the motivations behind it
CLE-local-1997@reddit
It's discussion the contributions of a man who's academic credibility died with Miloševic.
There are MANY critis if us forign policy, let's not cite someone who's reputation is ruined
magkruppe@reddit
his reputation is not ruined, stop being dramatic. his work is still essential reading for anyone interested in American foreign policy, and thus citing him is important to ensure people continue to read him
if people followed your advice, it would lead to less awareness of Chomsky work which is a net negative
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol. It literally is. Amongst his academic peers he is a piranha, he's not a historians, or an academic expert, he's a linguists, who overstepped his academic credentials, and used it to downplay genocide.
There are WAY better wrightets on American imperialism then chomsky, hes just famous because of his legitimately groundbreaking work as a linguist, so he speaks over experts
RollinThundaga@reddit
Pariah. Pirahna is a carnivorous Amazonian fish.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Doesn't really change my point
HystericalGasmask@reddit
He was just helping you out bro
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Correcting people's spelling and grammar especially of English might not be their first language or they might be using a text to speech model in order to make up for a disability it's just condescending it's not helpful
hazza-sj@reddit
They weren't being condescending, they were being genuinely helpful. I was baffled by the word piranha, until they pointed it out I did not realise it was meant to be pariah.
RollinThundaga@reddit
Slight correction; there was pedantry in my intent.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
No one in all of Internet history has ever thought that someone correcting their spelling was helpful. It always comes across as condescending.
And as always will
hazza-sj@reddit
Maybe, but if the original comment is unintelligible then it is necessary none the less.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Then if you can't understand a comment don't worry about it and move on
ariehn@reddit
It's not a question of spelling or grammar.
Pariah and Piranha are two completely different words with two completely different meanings. It's not like typing Their instead of They're.
phillyvanilly666@reddit
You’re flagged US and A, dude, nobody cares about your spelling per Se, but there is a little difference between a piranha and a pariah. I have a feeling your criticisms on his views and on this particular topic, especially railing down on his profession as a linguist is funny as I ask myself: Where’s your credentials?
Wordsalad for minimum characters
CLE-local-1997@reddit
I have repeatedly said he's one of the most respected linguists on Earth multiple times in this thread. His linguistic credentials is literally the only reason anyone took him seriously
RollinThundaga@reddit
I wasn't trying to.
magkruppe@reddit
you are overlooking a lot of his contributions, most famously media criticism and the idea of manufactured consent
to write him off as just a linguist who has overstepped his expertise is incorrect. he is not an academic who is striving for objectivity, so it is natural he is rejected from those corners. but his reputation among the wider public, non-academics, is doing fine
CLE-local-1997@reddit
What contribuition!?
The manufactured consent isn't some groundbreaking academic work. It's a good book but it's a book that covers well trodden ground but academics have been writing about since the birth of mass media.
And is reputation certainly isn't. Most normal people think him as an old communist crackpot whose Sims for genocidal maniacs. Most people on the left see him as a washed up apologist for us imperialism because of his support for us involvement in Kurdistan.
He's disgraced in all relevant fields. He just has name recognition
magkruppe@reddit
yet he is still frequently cited by countless people, on the left and right who critique American foreign policy. he was interviewed on both The Ezra Klein Show and Conversations with Coleman in 2021, not to mention all his other appearances on TV and podcasts and events
linguistics?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
... being brought up by random strangers on the internet is not being cited. He is often cited in Academia but as a linguist I can't think of any serious academic research on any topic he discusses that has cited him as a source.
... so he was the guest of a podcast that's not even in the top 50 podcasts. Yeah he's constantly brought out by Russia today because he fits the narrative they're trying to push
XD. I'm sorry what? Why are you riding his dick so hard. It's just nonsense to say he's the most influential intellectual. Fucking Jordan Peterson, is more influential than him. That's how irrelevant he is that some Canadian Junkie telling kids to clean their room is more influential
magkruppe@reddit
ok he is interviewed by the BBC and gives talks at events throughout the country. you are weirdly trying to paint him as some irrelevant thinker, when he is probably the most famous academic in the world
and Peterson is a good example. just because he is intellectually unserious doesn't mean he isn't influential. you don't have to like the person to acknowledge their impact on the world
CLE-local-1997@reddit
He is irrelevant
Being interviewed once every couple of years by a mainstream media source, is the closest hes been relevance in decades.
Most famous? XD.
He's not that into you dude. He's not even in tge top 100. Half the astrophysics on earth are bigger names then him. Neil degrees tyson is WAY more famous, and academically relevant,
Chomsky has never been relevant outside of small group on leftists sycophants, who arnt turned off by his genocidal detail, and linguists.
Your delusional if you think he was ever this super influential academic.
He wasn't.
And now he's way more known for being a genocide denyer then a critic if us imperialism, since he's spent the last 10 years calling for a permanent us occupation of another Syria to protect the kurds
misterawastaken@reddit
This is hilariously unhinged levels of mass replies for the critique of someone you find irrelevant. It seems at the very least that Chomsky lives rent-free in your head.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
My family's from Croatia so yeah people who denied the genocide do tend to live in my head rent free.
The fact that Chomsky has been driven into irrelevance because of his genocidal views makes me happy and I have no problem explaining how he became so irrelevant
misterawastaken@reddit
Just because you assert Chomsky as irrelevant does not make it so and displays how little you understand academic discourse. It speaks for itself, I really don’t need to continue.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
I'm fairly aware of his academic discourse. As an actual academic he's a linguist and while he was extremely influential at one point many of his theories have been debunked or dismissed or just not viewed as important or essential in academic fields.
He's not a historian. He's not an expert on the subjects he talks about with us politics or the Balkans or cambodia. Is actual academic specialty is linguistics
misterawastaken@reddit
No, you are speaking past my point. You are asserting he is not influential in academic circles past his specific linguistic training, and I’m telling you that is wildly incorrect. As a PhD myself in a completely different field, his work is so influential and foundational that it still is widely cited across many fields, including psychology/behavioural science and political theory.
Just because you don’t like him and/or his seems to be shunned in US mainstream discourse does not make him irrelevant.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Oh no I'm asserting that he's not influential in academic circles at all. That he used to be quite influential in linguistic circles but his influences waned as his theories are no longer in Vogue
misterawastaken@reddit
Then as I said, you have no clue what you are talking about.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Then you shouldn't have any trouble presenting examples.
misterawastaken@reddit
Google is your friend. Just look up his citations mate, I’m bot going to do the work for you. It really is not that hard.
Fenecable@reddit
lol, what a clown response
Fenecable@reddit
But actually.
Provide examples.
Massive-Ad-925@reddit
"There are MANY critis if us forign policy, let's not cite someone who's reputation is ruined"
Like Dick Cheney
BorodinoWin@reddit
imagine your greatest contribution to anything being simply known as a complainer.
CharmCityKid09@reddit
Chomsky will never not find an ulterior motive for any action the US/West takes that doesn't completely demonize them and, at the same time, infantilizes the opposite side.
geologean@reddit
Fair. An anti-imperialist from the Imperalist culture is still informed by their imperialist biases.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol what? There's no such thing as an imperialist culture. There's just Nations that are strong enough to impose their will. Every Nation would be an imperialist Nation if it was strong enough to be one. Every nation would be a victim of imperialism if it was weaker.
That's it. That is the dichotomy of global geopolitics.
geologean@reddit
The imperialist culture develops after having established dominance. All countries would and will do it. But the current top dog still has obvious and subtle imperialist biases baked into our thinking.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol. No.
The " might makes toght" idea is already baked in to geo poltics
sigmaluckynine@reddit
But that's Chomsky's point, you literally just made his point in saying this
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Wow really? He has some good points? Man if only the top common in this thread was me saying that right off the bat
sigmaluckynine@reddit
Hahaha fair - so I'm taking it that you were trying to make a point? But wouldn't you just be agreeing with the other person than?
Shieldheart-@reddit
Carl Schmitt, is that you?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
... I think he would have viewed that as a fundamentally good thing and that Nations have a right to impose their will why I view it as a condemnation of human nature and the fact that power corrupts.
So we're coming to the same conclusions we're just coming at it from two different angles
NeuroticKnight@reddit
Capitalism is the global imperialism, but there are lesser imperialism, existence of boko haram, doesnt make beating your wife okay. Noam Chomsky takes it to extreme,
123yes1@reddit
The Soviet Union was definitely doing Imperialism. This is not a capitalism v communism thing. This is a big/rich/powerful country and small/poor/weak country thing.
Mizukami2738@reddit
Perhaps you should refresh your memory a bit, Croatian and Bosnian war ended in 1995, war in Kosovo was 4 years later.
Also the genocide claims were claims were dismissed ICJ for Croatia, Serbia and Kosovo, in Bosnia it pertained only to Srebrenica specifically for Bosnian Serb military with Serbia being blamed for not doing enough to prevent it.
You could have just used a more fitting term called ethnic cleansing (it was literally created because of yugoslav wars), btw I blame Serbia for all those wars.
Icy-Bicycle-Crab@reddit
Which is nothing but a euphemism used to downplay genocide.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Deliberate_Force?wprov=sfla1
The nato intervention was in 95....
Mizukami2738@reddit
They are a distinct terms but they do overlap, every genocide is an ethnic cleansing but not every ethnic cleansing is a genocide.
Ethnic cleansing is basically an in between term toward genocide. The term was created post yugoslav wars in order to classify ethnic expulsion that don't meet the strict requirements of Genocide.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
No, it's the other way.
Evrey ethnic cleansing is a genocide
Not evrey genocide is ethnic clensing, as there are other forms of genocide
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You're really desperately trying to split hair Spirit if you remove a group you destroy a group from a geographic area. That is genocide. They are no longer there. They are destroyed.
The fact that you're trying to claim it's only genocide if there's some mad crusade to hunt down every single member of an ethnic group down to the very ends of the Earth is really a stretch.
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
I never even suggested such a thing. The only stretch is this ridiculous narrative you're trying to push.
If a group of soldiers enter a village and kill everyone with blonde hair, that is a genocide. If they load everyone with blonde hair into a truck and move them to another village, that is ethnic cleansing. This is not a difficult concept to understand.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Literally both are genocide
Was it not a genocide when the us rounded up all the natives and sent them to reservations?
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
For some tribes it was a genocide, because there are no descendants of those tribes living today. For other tribes it was ethnic cleansing, because they exist today in a place other than their ancestral homeland.
Words have meanings.
_AutomaticJack_@reddit
Words have meanings indeed...
The United Nations defines genocide as the intentional destruction of a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group, in whole or in part.
This, rules as written, means that in addition to the staples like mass killing and mass rape /forced intermarriage, things like preventing people from speaking their native language, openly practiced religion, stripping them of their histories, heirlooms and other cultural artifacts, forcing foreign cultural norms or any other of a thousand different sorts of othering, forced assimilation, or subjugationare technically genocide if it was done because you want their culture to stop happening.
Almost of all the tools used to accomplish ethnic cleansing are the tools of genocide. Basically the only way you can even kind of ethnically cleanse without it being genocidal is mass deportation and even that is skirting the line, if they end up separated from friends and family and stripped of all the things that have cultural/historical significance for them.
Like you say, genocide is a spectrum, but ethnic cleansing isn't as much on it, as much as it runs almost entirely parallel to it... While obviously less severe than going full Auschwitz, "I don't want you / your culture to be here" is almost entirely a sunset of "I don't want you / your culture to be...
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol, so it's only a genocide if you succeed?
Now you're engaging in genocide denial against the freaking Native American Spirit even the US government doesn't deny that genocide.
You're so wrapped up in your ideological defense you are down playing the Native American genocides
Please get some fucking help
PierreFeuilleSage@reddit
-cide means killing. The US did genocide natives, which always includes ethnic cleansing.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Are you really honestly trying to harken back to the Latin root as a justification for it that? Words evolve beyond their Latin roots all the time in english. The Latin root for fetus refers to the mother of a child and now it refers to an unborn pile of cells.
PierreFeuilleSage@reddit
Current genocide definition still says destruction of a population. Like the other person said, displacing is ethnic cleansing. Killing them (destroying them) is ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Also for your latin, not as a noun:
fētus m (genitive fētūs); fourth declension 1. A bearing, birth, bringing forth. 2. Offspring, young, progeny. 3. Fruit, produce
You're thinking of the adjective which can mean pregnant.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
And you and his long since recognized ethnic cleansing as destruction of a population.
If there was a community in a location one day and that Community doesn't exist the next day that Community has been destroyed. Even if the members were just gathered into a bus and forcefully relocated to Oklahoma
PierreFeuilleSage@reddit
The community is now in Oklahoma, wouldn't you say? It hasn't been destroyed. It's been forcefully moved.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Ask the members that now like in Oklahoma what they think.
Geophahy is part of community. Cultur is tied to construction and geography and art that can't be mov3d with people
No community survives intact when the roots are torn up. History proves that.
Angry_drunken_robot@reddit
But Rwanda?
If the actual idea was the genocide, why hasn't the USA/NATO done anything about the other genocides going on at the time or since?
alficles@reddit
Lol, yes. I even feel weird citing Chompsky Normal Form, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with his language work.
turbotableu@reddit
I liked when he entered into the West Bank through the Allenby crossing and deliberately made a show of how he didn't get the right visa because he used the wrong crossing
So either he did that intentionally to cause a stir or didn't research it beforehand and felt stupid
SpaceBoggled@reddit
Don’t forget his links to Epstein - i.e. having dinner with him after he was convicted and getting very offensive about it. The man is a simp for Russia.
Billych@reddit
Chomsky didn't force the west to support proxy Chetniks and Ustache so they could poison the diaspora communities with insanse ultranationalist rhetoric so eventually a Croatian-Australian Ustache regiment could go back to Yugoslavia in the 90s and commit war crimes. Chomsky didn't support Chetniks in San Diego who hired mercenaries to go back and fight those Ustache.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol. What?
Yugoslavia collapsed because the serbians tried to centralize power, and the rest of the ethnic groups said " nah, fuck that" and left
demonspawns_ghost@reddit
_AutomaticJack_@reddit
Ok, good to hear we are on the same page about the Serbs being genocidal, authoritarian fucknuggets...
CLE-local-1997@reddit
This article literally backs at my point and bringing up Croatian fascists and their war crimes in World War II and the Croatian war crimes during the Yugoslav War including their genocide doesn't really change the fact that yogoslavia collapsed because of the ethnic serbians
lookmeat@reddit
See that's stretching it a little bit too much to keep "America the bad guys". See the whole idea of "good" and "bad" guys only exists in fictional narratives. I'm the real people are people and they do good and bad actions. There is no good side, there is no "this is the side that is right".
You've completely validated the original statement "don't quote Chomsky", because while he had some good and deep ideas, he also had some ideas that, in hindsight, were radically wrong. This means that trying to use him as a source of authority would backfire, as instead of discussing the ideas we'd go on a rabbit hole to try to invalidate Chomsky's arguments by arguing he made mistakes, and trying to defend these, sometimes indefensible, mistakes to argue Chomsky never made a mistake. And then we never talk about the improvement.
And it's a shame that Chomsky didn't realize he as an American was also an idealist whose actions and words meant times went counter to his ideals. To get the inquiry to realize the mechanism through which idealists end up doing the opposite of those ideals. Simplifying the world, seeing everything in black and white, and putting yourself in a situation of making moral judgement on third party issues. That said it doesn't mean his exploration and challenge of US doctrine didn't have value or insight, it just wasn't any more perfect than the system it criticized.
bjran8888@reddit
So the U.S. can continue to do the wrong things (like supporting Netanyahu's massacre of unarmed civilians) without reflection and under the illusion that third world countries will naturally support them?
ok
CLE-local-1997@reddit
What the fuck are you talking about? How could you even try and draw that conclusion from what I said?
bjran8888@reddit
Your point seems to be "America doesn't need to rethink and can keep doing what it's doing now."
If I'm wrong, please refute me.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Well then maybe you should learn English cuz my point is Noam Chomsky can be easily dismissed because he's a genocide denier and so you shouldn't cite him as a source.
bjran8888@reddit
Then the U.S. can continue as it is without rethinking, and I have no problem with that.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Hey here's an idea? Maybe site an actual Source instead of a man who denies genocide. It's really not that hard to back up the good points of Noam Chomsky because there's actual evidence to back it up. The man himself is a crackpot who sacrificed his credibility on the altar of Serbia
No one is rejecting his claim. They're merely pointing out that he's not a reliable source of information
bjran8888@reddit
Is it difficult to have a debate based only on the reasoning and points he makes? Not difficult.
Then why not do so? We all know the reasons.
Just dismiss the person and go ahead and pretend you're right.
I don't have much more to say. Won't reply again.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
You know what's even easier? Having a debate with the facts, and not bringing in a genocide denier.
Chomsky isn't the only critic of us power.
Please don't. Your not making any sence
spaceqwests@reddit
Even if we accept that the US bombed to destroying the last socialist republic in Europe, that’s a good thing.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
No destroying other people's governments by ways of foreign intervention is never a good thing. Socialism was long dead and you go slavia and it was killed by ethnic and fighting triggered by the serbians trying to concentrate power, following the death of Tito
BillyYank2008@reddit
The US used foreign intervention to destroy Nazi Germany, but I guess that's never a good thing eh?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The Nazis declared war on the americans.
BillyYank2008@reddit
Ok, the British then used foreign intervention to destroy the government of Nazi Germany. Was this a bad thing?
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The Nazis invaded a British Ally Poland.
BillyYank2008@reddit
So intervention against an attack not involving their country directly.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Buddy you're definitely should have intervention is Defending Your allies then you have a weird definition of intervention. Because most people would consider a country your ally with to be an inherent part of your geopolitical strategy meaning you were already involved you didn't interfere in anything
BillyYank2008@reddit
Sure, I agree, but I was trying to show you that your statement that intervention is "never good" is shortsighted and inaccurate. Sometimes, there are bad things going on in the world, and intervention to stop it is the right thing to do. Perhaps if the allies intervened when Germany invaded Czechoslovakia, it would have been better. Perhaps if the US had gotten involved in 39 instead of 41.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
By showing me examples of things that aren't interventions?
esperind@reddit
Never? That was basically the original america first isolationists position in the 1930s. Hopefully we all know who that went.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
Lol what? The US toppled tons of government in the 1900s-1930s
esperind@reddit
yes, and one very important one, that hopefully we all know was necessary.
Your dealing in absolutes is what I am pointing is out problematic. You said its never a good thing to intervene in foreign governments. If the isolationists had their way in the 1930s, the US would have let Nazi German continue to burn the whole of Europe.
CLE-local-1997@reddit
The Americans didn't topple the nazis. We won a war they started.
finalattack123@reddit
Got some specifics to back up your first paragraphs claim?
Delicious_Clue_531@reddit
This isn’t even mentioning anything he has done towards cambodia. Like, Jesus, the guy is connected to so many awful people who pioneered “America bad,” or various genocide denials, I’m often shocked he hasn’t seen his reputation get ruined more than he already has been.
Command0Dude@reddit
Chomsky is a shitheel who never forgave eastern Europeans for throwing off the soviet yoke and seeking NATO security guarantees.
Ukraine was invaded by Russia twice and all he could talk about was how the war was the fault of America, somehow, and not Putin. And that Ukraine should roll over and surrender to the Russians. Thereby eviscerating his credibility as an anti-imperialist.
ddgr815@reddit
Weren't the original Ukrainian territories invaded full of ethnically Russian people who spoke Russian and wanted to be part of Russia?
How many Ukrainians and Russians have to die for you to decide the war might not be worth it?
onespiker@reddit
They spoke Russian yes but wanted to be apart of Russia is hard to say.
The donbass republics where created by Russia intelligence and thier own Army going into Ukraine and directly killing local authorities and taking over them. Saying we are now independent ( want to be a part of Russian).
ddgr815@reddit
Thanks.
Sounds like the KGB was taking notes from the CIA.
onespiker@reddit
Still to American focused this is something Russia/ soviet union has been doing for a long time.
It's not a new thing for powerful countries to do
Cheeky-burrito@reddit
Did they speak Russian? Yes.
Did they want to be part of Russia? No.
NeuroticKnight@reddit
Depends when now yes, 1970s no, it was Russification by Stalin that caused that. It is like most of the houses in west bank are owned by Israelis, but that alone is a spurious argument. Kinda like that.
ddgr815@reddit
Thanks for the explanation. I read that somewhere and honestly wasn't sure if it was misinfo.
Bad_Ethics@reddit
What Russia is doing to Ukraine is no different than what the UK did here in Ireland, Ukraine doesn't deserve arbitrary partitions imposed upon them by their colonialist neighbour, like we have had done to us.
Rift3N@reddit
If Britain invaded Nigeria or Spain invaded Venezuela do you think Chomsky would go "hell yeah take back what's rightfully yours, and they all speak your language anyway" or explode in a anti-imperialist verbal diarrhea?
Ginger564@reddit
Pretty sure this was the same argument made by hitler when he annexed the Sudetenland and I think you’d be hard pressed to find anyone supporting it.
Command0Dude@reddit
People also forget that giving Hitler the Sudetenland achieved nothing. Hitler invaded the Czechs half a year later anyways and completely annexed it.
Anyone who thinks the "peace deal" from 2022 was a good idea (ceding a bunch of land to Russia and then dismantling its military) is a geopolitics dunce.
Command0Dude@reddit
No.
How many Ukrainians have to die before we decide to give them the decency of giving them the weapons they need to fight back against an imperialist invasion?
Christ. Fuck all this "Why fight for Danzig" shit.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
I was sick of hearing about this regarded hippie even when was still alive, and I don't need his corpse taken out and paraded around now that he's gone. Should have stuck with linguistics.
whitisthat@reddit
Um? He’s still very much alive.
onespiker@reddit
He died a year ago.
NetworkLlama@reddit
He had a pretty severe stroke last year that has left him with limited function. As of June of this year, he was still in a hospital in Brazil a year after the stroke, which is why he's been silent on Gaza.
Immediate-Spite-5905@reddit
aw man.
freshprinz1@reddit
Yep. I have no fucking clue, why we are supposed to worship his political thoughts? He's nothing more than any Hollywood celebrity, not any more qualifed than them.
Beatboxingg@reddit
Germany's response to the genocide of Palestinians is nothing short of psychotic. Anything you have to say about chomsky can therefore be dismissed.
VaseaPost@reddit
I didn't know he died, that's great news.
Kaymish_@reddit
He didn't. That other guy is just wrong.
A_Concerned_Viking@reddit
Is this a Chomsky hater cluster fuck? More good than bad has been taken from his work. Old dudes always are a bit "from their time and age". Noam's work will hold up under broad consideration. Details are different for each country.
turbotableu@reddit
Too bad he's too stupid to figure out how to get a proper visa or he would be a global threat
Sierra_12@reddit
The dude denied the Cambodian genocide and believes the NATO intervention to stop the Yugoslavian genocides were bad. That wasn't his old age speaking then. His life premise is, any action done by the US is bad and any opponent of the US is the true victim. That's why he immediately supported the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Smart_Tomato1094@reddit
Bro whoever wrote this article can piss off. Noam Chomsky denies the genocide of Bosnian Muslims because "America bad". This human trash even called the concentration camps at Srebrenica a refugee camp.
SoupRemarkable4512@reddit
Chomsky had some problematic views at the best of times. He supports holocaust deniers, hates the west and is a relic of 70’s style Trotskyite communism. Perhaps even more problematic is his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. They were very close friends and Epstein funneled hundreds of thousands of dollars to Chomsky, he has admitted to this so there is no speculation.
Standard_Ad_4270@reddit
He did not support holocaust denier. In fact, he held himself to the standards of free speech. The case you’re referring to wasn’t him agreeing with the speaker who believed that the holocaust was a lie (or something like that), but defending his right to the freedom of expression. He’s made that point clear.
https://chomsky.info/1989____/
SoupRemarkable4512@reddit
So defended a holocaust denier…
Sierra_12@reddit
Dude. I despise Chomsky and even I know that's not supporting Holocaust denial. Saying that people should have the right to speak regardless of their views is the core principal of freedom of speech. I despise the KKk, but I still believe that if they want to march, they should have the right. Believing they should have the same rights does not make me a KKk supporter.
Standard_Ad_4270@reddit
That’s not the same thing and you know it. It’s adhering to the principals of free speech. You may not agree with it, but the individual has the right to express themselves. That is what Chomsky was defending and I tend to agree with that too.
SoupRemarkable4512@reddit
Hate speech shouldn’t get a pass for being free speech.
borealisxdd@reddit
Yes it fucking should, what is with people not understanding what freedom of speech is? If i hate black people for example , and i live in a country that promotes free speech, i am allowed to say i hate them. Same thing for whites, asians, women, men, minorities, etc. Nazis holding a rally in 1939 in MSG was freedom of speech right there.
Standard_Ad_4270@reddit
You’re missing the point. It would still be classified as free speech. You can’t apply it selectively. Orwell mentioned that free speech involves standing up for the speech of people you don’t agree with. He realized that shutting down even the most offensive opinions can be a way for authoritarianism to take hold. Robert Faurisson’s views were reprehensible, but adhering to the principals of free speech means he’s allowed to express his views. This aligns with the views of Mill and Voltaire.
bjran8888@reddit
So it's only natural for the US to continue their behavior (such as supporting Netanyahu)? And then the US expects the third world to continue to see the US as a beacon of justice? ok
SoupRemarkable4512@reddit
Many developing countries have never and will never see the USA as a beacon of justice. Smart developing countries align with either the US/ NATO or China not because they are beacons of justice but because it increases their stability and prosperity. The developing countries that don’t do this are a mess, especially those aligned with Russia.
bjran8888@reddit
It depends on the circumstances. I think many key countries will swing between China and the US to maximize their interests. The most typical are Vietnam and Mexico.
magkruppe@reddit
holocaust deniers? which ones? he is Jewish and is definitely not a holocaust denier
and the Epstein giving him money thing is a lie, you should be ashamed of yourself
he did no receive one dollar from Epstein, it was his own money
SoupRemarkable4512@reddit
He defended holocaust deniers (quick google search gives plenty of sources). He was clearly very close to Epstein if he trusted him with that kind of money.
magkruppe@reddit
instead of apologising for your false allegation and slandering of the man, you instead double down
daviddjg0033@reddit
I read his books in college. Great critiques of America. His views on Ukraine and Russia are absurd
MonitorPowerful5461@reddit
This seems accurate to me. His criticisms of the US are often on-point, after you recognise he limits himself to only the bad parts. But if he's talking about anyone opposing the US, he loses his grip on reality very quickly.
o0ven0o@reddit
His views on the Bosnian and Cambodian genocides are absurd too.
geologean@reddit
Now imagine all the people out there in leadership roles who haven't admitted to having taken Epstein money
Dark1000@reddit
I think Chomsky is largely right, and it's difficult to argue otherwise. The US (like every nation before and after it) acts in self interest, and justified its actions in a cloak of moralistic justification. It uses this to justify itself to its allies and to its people.
I also wanted to add a third, and most important, reason for why the people allow this to happen, which I think has been missed. Sure, manufacturing consent plays a role. But ultimately, Americans, just like people of every other country, do not care about foreign intervention unless it hits them at home. Individuals may care, but as a group, domestic needs and concerns always come first. It is a fact of politics, and it's part of human nature.
olddoc@reddit
I had a discussion the other day with a good friend of mine, and it is indeed hard to find a real qualitative difference between the US doing continuous napalm bombing runs on Vietnamese peasants and the Nazi Luftwaffe using the same rationale on Ukraine peasants during WWII.
They’re just lesser people, no? There’s nothing elevated about the US actions at all.
HKEY_LOVE_MACHINE@reddit
If the Nazi had only done straffing runs with fighter planes, they wouldn't have been made the standard for the most evil power in the 20th century.
...
Hundreds of other nations destroyed cities and villages, with bombs, artillery shells, arrows and torches. They killed loads of civilians that way.
But they didn't set up entire convoys of trains and trucks, to bring millions of people to the death camps. They didn't form entire units (the Einsatzgruppen), of thousands of executioners, to methodically exterminate every single civilian once the army at the front had cleared the area of all enemy combatants. That's the major difference here.
I really hope you're not consciously omitting the Holocaust in your attempt at claiming Nazi Germany is no different from the US in the 70s.
I know false equivalencies are very popular on social media nowadays, but this one really takes the cake.
olddoc@reddit
I specifically said that a US air force pilot doing napalm bombing runs is not different from a German Luftwaffe pilot doing strafing runs on Ukrainian peasants. You think that's not true? You think the US pilot dropped the napalm, but shed a little tear for the poor people down there? Maybe said a little prayer for the little kids that were burned on his knees in front of the bed? Don't be ridiculous.
It's not a false equivalence at all. It's a very true equivalence of one specific example. The fact that you see the need to quickly distance the noble US pilots from the naughty Nazi's by dragging the whole World War with it tells me it hits a nerve too.
According_Elk_8383@reddit
Sure, I mean everything is the same if there are no details - or if you twist the only annunciated details to support your pathological attempt at subverting power structures without means to change them.
According_Elk_8383@reddit
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/250chomskylies.pdf
Chomsky is a misanthropic sociopath who, for whatever reason after creating a foundational (even if otherwise replaced) model for modern linguistics: decided to throw away his intellectual carrier to become a full-time far left puppet.
He’s been ripped apart by writer after writer, academic after academic, and intellectuals of all types. He’s a hollow, listless, weasel of a man.
I wrestle every time he comes up, with whether he believes the nonsense he writes, and if he’s found his place as a mouth peace for thoughtless psychopaths everywhere.
All I know is, he can’t stop being wrong - and it’s hard to find where he’s ever been measurably right.
According_Elk_8383@reddit
http://www.paulbogdanor.com/250chomskylies.pdf
Link broke so here it is again.
Of course the usual morons are rustleing around the comments
”Can you believe people still think we invade countries for democracy” tips fedora nonsense.
waldleben@reddit
Extremely obviously bullshot biased source is extremely obviously bullshit and biased
According_Elk_8383@reddit
Oh, you read every single quote and checked the sources?
Get out of here, I’m not wasting my time.
waldleben@reddit
I cant believe i have to twll you this but the fact that it has sources doesnt mean it isnt wrong. Neither did I cmaim that literally everything said in it is wrong. Chomsky is full of shit on a lot of issues, but so is your random PDF
According_Elk_8383@reddit
Sure, care to point out a list of what it says that's wrong?
waldleben@reddit
Page 46, Point 9.
The claim is "x wanted y", and the "rebuttal is "well actually, this guy said that x didnt want y".
If the standard of evidence is "someone once said something else, even if they have a massive motivation to lie (and literally, demonstrably did in this case)" then the whole thing is cast into doubt.
And before you say anything, im not at all saying that this is the case for all, or even most of the points here. I cant be bothered to check but lets be honest, most of Chomskys opinions arent hard to disprove legitimately.
But if there are a few points proving a complete lack of academic honesty then the entire rest isnt trustworthy either
According_Elk_8383@reddit
9. The Lie: “It might be noted that the ‘boundaries of Zionist aspirations’ in Ben- Gurion’s ‘vision’ were quite broad, including southern Lebanon, southern Syria, today’s Jordan, all of cis-Jordan, and the Sinai.”341
The Truth: The archives show that Ben-Gurion rejected expansionism: “When we agreed to the Partition Plan, we accepted it in all honesty. We did this not because the plan was good or just, but because a small area received through peaceful means was preferable to us than a large area won by fighting.”342
If you check the sources, you can see that you’re misplacing
Context of the individual
Character of the individual
Projecting of intent
Conceptualization of procedure for intent Etc.
Though what you saying can be true in theory, your counterpoint leaves a much wider net.
How would they take the extended territory?
How would they defend the extended territory?
How would they create allies with the extended territory?
How would they police the extended territory?
How would their presence in the MENA function with the extended territory?
You’ve also showcasing your lack of information on Israel’s standing at the time (No European, Asian, or American Allies: and no incentive to align).
I’m not trying to have an aggressive confrontation with you, and I think we clearly both agree Chomsky is often undoubtedly wrong, but I think you’re showcasing a bias yourself here in the selection of this particular section of the text.
waldleben@reddit
I really dont want to argue with you on this, its not the focus of the conversation. We can assume that the correction is true if youd like. The point is that that quote isnt actually evidence against the point made by Chomsky.
According_Elk_8383@reddit
Fair enough, I just disagree with that point. Chomsky is making a claim, both private and public sources don’t back up.
In the initial theory though, I completely agree someone saying “she said x”, and then someone else saying “no she said y” is not a counterpoint that can be defended as evidence: if is a grey area where literally an concept can be place, however.
Waldo305@reddit
Wasn't this guy blaming the U.S for Russia invading Russia? Ar one point this tired old fuck even said that the reason Russia can do this is because of the U.S invasion of Iraq.
He can eat dirt tbh. For an intellectual I don't think he thinks about nuance has he or his supporters thinks he does.
Bman1465@reddit
He's an alright linguistic and a shit person overall with one of the most biased and revisionist views on history and politics, I don't think his opinions should be relevant
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
empleadoEstatalBot@reddit
Maintainer | Creator | Source Code
Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
coverageanalysisbot@reddit
Hi empleadoEstatalBot,
We've found 1 sources (so far) that are covering this story including:
So far, there hasn't been any coverage from the RIGHT.
Of all the sources reporting on this story, 0% are right-leaning, 0% are left-leaning, and 100% are in the center. Read the full coverage analysis and compare how 1+ sources from across the political spectrum are covering this story.
I’m a bot. Read here to learn how it works or message us with any feedback so we can improve the bot for you.