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UnitB17@reddit

In service, not sales: customers expect technicians to give them their time for free. They don’t want or expect to pay diagnostic charges. If a technician has to test drive, pull codes and data, research the repair manual/ TSB’s and certainly if they have to disassemble parts of the car to perform function or wiring checks, how is that technician supposed to make a living if they do that for free. That’s their expertise and knowledge you’re paying for partly.

Additionally, asking for diagnosis without preparing to actually fix the car. So the technician has told you what’s wrong and what it will cost to fix but you’re not going to fix it? No we’ve wasted multiple people’s time (the techs, the advisors, your own time, and other customers we could’ve been serving). Of course that last bit is understandable if your $4k cars needs a $4k transmission or something similar. But to come in asking why your TPMS isn’t working and then you don’t want to replace a dead TPM sensor?

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Donr1458@reddit

I’d agree with this more if the diagnostic charges actually included the stuff you talk about.

99% of the time, the tech does nothing more than hook up the scan tool, read the codes, and then guess at which repair it will be.

It’s a 5 minute process (literally, not an exaggeration) and then I’m charged $100-$200 for it.

Even better, the shop throws some parts at it, the problem persists, and just moves to the next guess.

I notice no one ever wants to give back that diagnosis time when they don’t fix the correct thing.

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long-the-short@reddit

Also sexist.

My wife went to ford and they charged her £120 for a diag.

Lol? What is unexpected about this?

Putrid-Mirror-5048@reddit

Lemon law = if you take your car to have the same issue fixed 3 times and still not fixed, they have to buy the car back

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Big_Booty_Pics@reddit

Does not apply to used vehicles in my state unfortunately.

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Donr1458@reddit

I had a similar issue with a Toyota dealer back around 2000. I took an MR2 turbo in because the car wouldn’t make full boost. I paid for diagnostic time only to be told that the turbo needed to be replaced to the tune of $4200. I specifically asked them to check the timing, because the timing belt had been done right before the problem started.

The service advisor outright refused. Instead he told me they found oil in the intake passage (not uncommon on turbo engines) and that the problem is the clutch between the two sides of the turbo was worn out. So, they charged me money, refused to do what I asked, and then described to me how a supercharger clutch works, which isn’t even a part on my car. I took it somewhere else and had the timing checked. It was off and the car ran perfectly after it was timed correctly.

The kicker? 24 years and 120,000 miles later that turbo still works. Had I approved the repair, they probably would have done enough disassembly to need to retime the car to access the turbo. So they’d have fixed the problem inadvertently and I wouldn’t have known they were idiots.

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Bobguy64@reddit

"Had I approved the repair, they probably would have done enough disassembly to need to retime the car to access the turbo."

In what world do you have to remove a timing belt to replace a turbo???

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Donr1458@reddit

In a mid engine car where access is exceptionally tight.

Maybe you could do it without. You probably can, but if these are the same people who told me my turbo has a clutch, I wouldn’t doubt it.

You’ll see all sorts of weird things some mechanics do. On one of my cars (manual Chevy Cruze) when watching videos of how to replace the clutch, one mechanic said he finds it easier to remove the engine than drop the transmission to do the replacement.

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Bobguy64@reddit

I am aware that an MR2 is mid engined and has little to no space for repair and maintenance. Also, just like anyone else, I haven't seen everything. However, you don't have to remove a timing belt/chain to remove an engine from a vehicle.

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Donr1458@reddit

I’m referring to two different vehicles.

The car where the instructional video called for removing the engine was for a clutch job on a Chevy Cruze. Presumably because removing the transmission requires dropping the lower subframe and the tech doing the job found it easier to take the engine out from the top than the transmission from the bottom.

In the case of the MR2, they’d have been taking apart so much stuff to get the turbo in and out that they may have inadvertently ended up fixing the timing issue even though they completely misdiagnosed it. It’s speculation on my part. The point is when you recommend the biggest repair you can, you’ll get into ancillary systems and end up fixing something that was the real issue; so the customer never really knows the screwup.

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Bobguy64@reddit

So, just to be clear here:

1."I’m referring to two different vehicles." well aware. Just stating that, to my knowledge, there is no vehicle that requires you to remove a timing chain or belt to remove the engine, or turbo.

The turbo isn't as hard to replace as you think, I just looked it up and book time is 5.7 hours. The hardest part would be dealing with exhaust fasteners they are either rusty or just about rusted away depending on where you live and how you treat your vehicle.

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Donr1458@reddit

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serviceadvisorshay@reddit

I'm with you. I like when I end up someplace else and they try to "sell" me something.

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Donr1458@reddit

Well that is the issue.

I worked in the automotive industry and now I work as an attorney. Both of the industries have a bad reputation, and it’s not because customers are unreasonable. There are good techs and good lawyers. But the reality is there’s such a large number of people that are dishonest, take advantage of customers or clients who don’t have the knowledge to protect themselves, or just outright take advantage.

Porencephaly@reddit

This happened to us with an HVAC company but then they kept coming back for free until the actual problem was solved. Somehow we don’t expect this of car dealerships.

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moops__@reddit

We had the same with an electrician. Spent hours trying to find an issue and didn't charge us when he couldn't.

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julienjj@reddit

Well, to be clear, electricians typically don't fix problems. Electrician are installers. They install electric equipment to the building code. That's why they always wanna redo the wiring run, the pannel etc... Not working right ? Redo the whole thing up to code = guaranteed to work. Engineering technicians and Professionals engineers find issues and repair them, but typically only on industrial stuff where you can't just redo the electric circuit for 2000$

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skepticaljesus@reddit

Imagine hiring an electrician to fix an outlet that doesn't work and them just wandering around the house replacing six random light switches and then charging you $1300 with the original outlet still not working.

it's crazy (and sad) how close this is to describing my most recent electrical project

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hoxxxxx@reddit

that's called start/stop, it's a feature on newer cars to save fuel!

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Agitated_Key_1331@reddit

I think it really depends on the shop/tech you're talking about. If it's seriously something that I didn't spend a lot of time diagnosing (like a radiator leak in a new blazer, I've done maybe 40 of them) then I'll charge .5 hour instead of the full 1.0. Regardless, I still have to do the paperwork (5-10 minutes) the free maintenance inspection (10-15 minutes that I don't get paid for at all) and the time it takes for the car to come in and back out when I'm done (about 10 minutes)

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WanderingOutdoorsman@reddit

Why does a Dr get paid for diagnostics when they’re wrong constantly?

I think that people who truly believe this should take their cars to a place, get their codes read in advance, and make a guess as to what is causing the problem themselves before bringing their car in to have it worked on. Why not, since it’s so easy? Technicians would love for YOU to be responsible for these “guesses”. It’s not nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

I know how complex the cars are because I was responsible for checking all those systems to make sure they made emissions compliance and worked. Have you ever sat with a car for 2 months straight testing every variation of diagnostic code to make sure those calibrations set off every single diagnostic code correctly? I’m guessing you haven’t.

Here’s reality, you can always find an exception to the rule. Your Audi example doesn’t explain why every car every time needs an hour of diagnostic that the mechanic doesn’t really do. That’s one example of a weird situation that took longer and warrants a fee. But that is the exception, not the rule.

I can’t speak to Audi engineering, but on the cars I worked on, the coolant pump had its own diagnostics where if it wasn’t working right, that code would set as well and let you know to check the pump. Not to mention, if that problem is anything like common, the manufacturer will update the decision tree so you know what to fix. We were always working with our dealers and helping them on the edge cases that were hard to figure out. Once we had a solution, we would update the service software so it wasn’t necessary to spend hours chasing a weird problem. We figured it out once and then let everyone know what to do.

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jdurbzz@reddit

Lmao that makes a lot of sense why you have no clue what you are talking about then haha the level of difficulty in your line of work (which I’m in no way disagreeing with) has no relevance to the level of difficulty I experience in my line of work every day, though it looks like I at least have someone to thank for that now. The fact that you are (allegedly) an engineer for modern day vehicles should be even more reason for you to understand how complicated diagnosing in the field can be, but then again that’s probably why we have to fix your shit so often; because you don’t. You of all people should know that an ECU throwing codes does not always tell you what the exact problem is, it can only tell you what the car/computers are seeing.

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Donr1458@reddit

If you have the codes from the vehicle, it will point you to a small number of issues it could be. From there, if you know how to read and analyze live data, you can usually pinpoint the problem quickly.

Reading codes can be done in a couple minutes. Live data could take longer, but typically only requires a few minutes of driving.

Lmao the absolute irony in someone who has ZERO experience as a technician trying to tell me what I see day to day 🤣 you are incredibly dense and a testament to why automobiles these days are giant steaming piles of trash with a litany of issues.

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Donr1458@reddit

Yes, yes, you are an angry little man.

It sounds like I have more experience doing your work than you have in doing mine.

I’ve done the work of technicians, I helped technicians figure out problems they couldn’t diagnose, and I still diagnose problems and fix them on my own and my friends’ vehicles.

The fact that I do not find this to be that complicated in most cases and understand that most problems are diagnosed fairly quickly while you think these are all major, time consuming diagnoses tells me you just aren’t very good at it.

It’s actually much easier now to figure out a problem than on an older vehicle that was totally mechanical and had no diagnostics and data to lead you in the right direction. If you learn how the car really works, including all the on board diagnostics and how the live data indicates an issue, you’ll find that your diagnoses will get better and quicker in time.

Then you won’t have to scream at people on the internet over your frustration with how hard you find your work.

Or you could just be stubborn and keep doing what you’re doing. If your Audi blows a gasket, you might be able to fix it after 3-4 hours of diagnostic time. I wonder, if you blow a gasket, can your Audi fix you?

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jdurbzz@reddit

You know the funny thing is the more you reply the more it becomes clear you are just talking out of your ass and most likely lying. I can very clearly tell you have no clue what you are saying and are just trying to sound smart by writing long paragraphs.

It’s okay, the real technicians who fix your mistakes every day know how big of a knob you sound like right now. Clearly there are instances where diagnosing an issue will not take a whole hour, but many of them do, and if you can’t understand that then that simply tells me you have no experience in this line of work. And for the times it does take less than an hour, you are not paying for how long it takes me to diagnose YOUR problem, you are paying for my knowledge and experience because YOU were not smart enough to fix it on your own. Especially when a customer just wants a diagnosis to take it somewhere else to have it done cheaper, where it will almost inevitably come back to us anyway to fix the cluster fuck that will ensue bc you tried to save money and ended up costing yourself more instead. See it every day, unlike you clearly.

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Donr1458@reddit

You are a silly, silly little man.

I break my post into paragraphs so it’s easier for you to read and understand. It works better than walls of text. You should try it.

I haven’t had to go to a shop for anything other than paintwork in almost 20 years.

What you are describing is the sort of mental bias that afflicts a lot of professions.

Police deal with criminals everyday. They then tend to think that all people are worse than they really are because they deal with the worst people. Really, criminals are a tiny fraction of the overall public.

Mechanics deal with broken cars and bad owners frequently because it is their job to do so.

You have a warped sense of how most repairs go because every bad job sticks out in your mind and the good ones don’t make as much of an impression. It’s not statistically relevant and overstates the problem.

This is why mechanics will often badmouth almost everything under the sun when the real statistical instance of problems is far lower than what they see.

You even admit that you don’t always spend the hour. So you admit you are charging for work not done and excusing it by saying that’s the value of experience. The way you should be pricing experience is that your hourly rate is higher because you solve problems faster. Then people can pay your higher rate and it provides them value. But I bet you don’t do that. You charge book time and keep the extra money when the repair went quicker than expected.

Because let’s be honest, when it takes less time it’s because it was actually not that hard to diagnose. It wasn’t your experience that saved the time, it just wasn’t a difficult diagnosis, as is the case with most of the problems that cars have.

Stop trying to mask your greed and unethical business practices.

If you are so great and so confident in your work, why don’t you post the name of your business in your next reply so people here can read what you’ve said and decide for themselves if your “experience” is worth what you’re charging?

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jdurbzz@reddit

Lmao you are so out of touch with reality it’s insane. It has also become very apparent that you have no idea how a business is run or how labor rates are set and what they are determined by. I’m sorry, I just can’t continue to have a conversation with someone with such a low level of intelligence and high level of ignorance.

Don’t want to catch your stupid, it is contagious you know.

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julienjj@reddit

Found the guy who thinks the scanner has all the magic answers.

BTW, a diagnostic, is the conclusion of finding the issue, not the process.

The scanner tell symptoms, not causes. Finding the cause require to spend a lot of time testing circuits, scoping signal, reading and analysing data. Software with wiring diagrams and bulletin cost a shitload of money annually, proper scanners can be anywhere between 4 to 10K, plus annual software fees, and these days they are often obsolete after only a few years.

Why is your experience is 99% guessing ? Because problems in modern cars are difficult, and are beyond the skills of most mechanics. Finding good techs is hard, and they dont wanna be paid 30$/h hour anymore when they are good, for doing such shitty work.

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Donr1458@reddit

Found the guy who doesn’t know how to use diagnostic systems and live data to pinpoint issues.

If you’re routinely scoping signals and testing circuits for everything that comes through the door, you in one of three cases: 1. You have the absolute worst luck and only get the hard cases; 2. Padding your hours by doing unnecessary work; or 3. Bad at the work you perform.

BT-DUBZ, if the diagnostic is finding the issue and later on you excuse all the guessing because it’s so hard, are you refunding your customer’s money when the diagnosis was incorrect? Because your own post makes it sound like you aren’t really finding the issue, you’re just guessing because “it’s so hard”. It’s like you openly admit you charge the diagnostic fee and haven’t really pinpointed the problem. So in that case, the customer shouldn’t be paying you a diagnostic fee! Your own post shows the internal inconsistency in what’s going on and why the charges aren’t justified.

The problem sounds more like an educational issue than that cars are so difficult. I have worked on difficult cases where problems were not apparent. They can happen. Diagnostic fees are justified when that is the case. The normal case isn’t like that.

What is the standard case is the tech pulls codes and then just replaces whatever the technical documents tell them to. That’s all they do. It’s 5 minutes of work billed out as an hour of labor that didn’t really happen.

Then, if the repair didn’t work, you don’t see most shops refund that diagnostic time that didn’t diagnose anything. So they are shortchanging the diagnosis and not standing behind it. Customers should not pay for that.

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julienjj@reddit

Just had a 335i the other day towed in from another shop. Would start, iddle terribly, give timing correlation codes then stall. So of course they re-did the timing. Guess what after ? Started, iddled terribly, then stalled again. Scope the lines to the camshaft and crank signals, found the the signal was crashing. The 12v common to those sensors was all over the place, going from 8v to well over 18v. Ended up that oil level sensor was cracked and shorting the supply to the ground thru the oil and causing this voltage spike.

Got another 328i, would code for transmission overheating and would give multiple trans malfunction codes randomly, during each drive. Shop replaced the mechatronic. after checking continuity to all the wires. New mecha had the same issue.

Found the twisted wires of the powertrain can#2 of between the ECU and the transmission had worn thru the insulation inside the harness in multiple places, and was barelly touching, causing the CAN-signal to slightly drift by half a volt.

2017 330i. Would randomly overheat and boils the coolant. Dealer replaced all the cooling hose, thermostat, coolant temp sensors. Dealer spend 30hours on it without finding the issue. turns out, it had a bad crimp in the engine harness. Depending on the outdoor conditions and how the car was driven, the aluminum wiring of the engine harness would barely touch, changing the ohms readout of the thermistor to slightly under the point where the heat management module would open some of the head cooling flaps. Coolant would then boil in the head only, causing the pressure to blow off the cap and empty the coolant system, then the whole car would overheat and give the turn engine off message.

I had an M5 that would not have it's active suspention systems work properly after an alignement, because the steering angle value would not write to the damper control unit. The sole test plan measure was replace the control unit per the dealer and ISTA, it worked fine before the alignment. Unit was 2000$. Dealer tried flashing the module before too. I used a UDS-can injector device to write a value of 000 after copying the can-message the scanner send to the car, then wrote the new value again and it worked. Sure, it only took me 30 minutes to fix this. But our minimum diag charge is 180$, and it's the proper reward for those cases, it's not like anyone else was fixing this either.

As far as a diagnostic charge goes, if you feel you are paying too much, do it yourself. If you don’t have the time/expertise/tooling to do it yourself, then pay me what I think my time/expertise/tooling is worth. Otherwise head on down to the next shop.

That $390 pre/post scan was to protect themselves. And if a customer doesn’t want to pay for that, it’s in the body shops best interest to not work with that customer.

All it takes is one “ever since you worked on my vehicle…” that ended up costing the shop multiple thousands of dollars to repair only to find out at the end the problem was something that was preexisting to them working on it.

Because we know the owner of the vehicle isn’t paying for it. They have been lying through their teeth insisting this concern never happened before the accident. The insurance company isn’t going to pay for it. It wasn’t part of the accident so not part of the claim. That leaves who holding the bag?

Along with that, I am willing to bet that bodyshop has at least 1-2 vehicles dropped off every day that an insurance company is going to pay the repair bill on.

That insurance company will happily pay for pre/post scans on a vehicle because it saves them a LOT of money every year.

Of that 390 the shop probably gets 10-20% as profit and the rest goes to pay their remote vendor who actually does the scan.

Now why would a business owner/manager take on your work where there is both less profit and greater liability?

They wouldn’t, just like the diagnostic tech wouldn’t.

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Donr1458@reddit

That’s plainly nonsense.

First off, if you are scanning the car to protect yourself, why is a customer paying for it? That’s not providing them any service. That’s a service to YOU and for your shop. You should pay that service. It’s called the cost of doing business. Do you also make the customer pay directly for your health insurance and business insurance? I hardly doubt it’s a line item on your invoices.

Are you so terrible at your job that it takes a full hour to pull codes from the car? If that’s how slow you work, your time, expertise, and tooling is worth approximately zero dollars per hour.

Of four shops that I went to, two charged for the scans and two didn’t. If you have a car that’s banged up badly, maybe you need to check for damage to sensors and other issues. A car that has a sub one inch crack in the bumper and a dented fender? Please.

You also miss the point entirely. I didn’t go there for any mechanical issues. I didn’t ask for a mechanical repair. I asked for a touch up on minor body damage. There is no need or reason for any kind of scan on the vehicle. It’s just overcharging for the purpose of overcharging. I’m happy to pay for work that is done. I’m not paying for work that isn’t necessary on my car.

This is exactly why consumers have a bad impression of mechanics and dealers. You can come up with whatever excuse you want. It gives the entire industry a deservedly bad reputation.

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Golgoroth666@reddit

If I have become good enough at my job that I can figure out what’s wrong with your vehicle in 10-15 minutes, instead of an hour, why should I devalue myself and the services I am providing?

Your argument boils down to saying the technician with the most experience/knowledge/tooling in the shop should also be the cheapest.

In what world does the “cost of doing business” not get passed onto the customer? You honestly believe that if a company has to pay amount X for service Y to be performed to your vehicle they are going to do it for free? And yes pretty much any business that has to sublet a $200 service out to another vendor is going to put that in as a separate line item on the invoice.

There's the king of all example of this on a recent Hoovie's Garage video.

Guy has a Bugatti Veyron which won't go into reverse. Mechanics replace the transmission at a cost of over $100,000. The problem doesn't go away.

And that’s a fair point.

Sometimes there are techs that really do diagnostic and repair work. But these days, most dealerships and a lot of independent shops just replace parts until the problem goes away.

If a mechanic is really spending that time to diagnose an issue so it’s fixed once, I’m more than happy to pay for their time. It just seems like that is more exception than rule these days

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but he was doing it so that whatever service he ultimately did advise wouldn't seem so bad. Really was not a fan of that guy.

ah the ole lisa simpson method

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UCBPpcqL10

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SRQmoviemaker@reddit

Our shop does. Also takes off the diag fee if you get repairs.

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Like the $2400 for four new injectors in an old BMW but it’s the catalytic converter that’s buggered

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Vazhox@reddit

That’s where the dealership starts eating the cost. If the dealership didn’t fix the problem and charged you for bullshit or made it worse, they OWE YOU the fix for free. BMW on the east coast use to do that.

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Suck_My_Thick@reddit

I was charged $160 at VW for them to tell me my tuned ECU couldn't be reprogrammed to stock. I'm pretty sure they already knew this ahead of time.

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LewdDarling@reddit

The problem is a lot of dealerships charge a stupid high minimum for diagnostic. $200 even if all the tech did was read the codes which takes 5 minutes.

This customer used a 240V outlet to charge her car, so she unplugged the entire charging unit instead of her car.

Funny thing, she’s always the most entitled customer and has been a nightmare to deal with. She came to pick up the NACS adapter for Tesla superchargers the other day and my coworker recognized her. She said out loud “wow, they know my name!” And I thought “Not for any good reasons though.”

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MaintenanceCoalition@reddit

Blame the manufacturer, most have removed or lessened diag time. Techs won't work for free. I've seen week old trucks with 1k miles have rodent damage, not warranty.

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mustang-GT90210@reddit

If you come in complaining about your FordPass App not working, it could be assumed that it's under warranty. Then the technician removes the front seats and center console, in order to get to the module responsible for that function, and finds it has dried coffee all over it, and corrosion growing out of it.

It's now not a warrantable concern. And the technician is an hour deep into the repair, and would still have to put the interior back together. Should that be free to the customer? Absolutely not. That's why dealerships make you agree to diagnostic fees, even if the car is "under warranty."

Warranty covers defects and part failures, not caused by abuse or outside factors. The vehicle needs to be diagnosed in order to determine whether the repair is covered or not

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Geedunk@reddit

This post (hopefully) wasn’t made as a loaded question, but posting in a hobby subreddit like this we’re going to see all the people doing their best to not spend money. Everyone complaining about a $150 diagnostic forgets time = money in the real world and that the $15 part they bought secondhand for their 4th owner Honda plus the hours they spent on forums or YouTube has a time cost associated with it.

I was/am a car guy, but I’ve been on both sides of the veil too. People, even car enthusiasts, will go out of their way to spend as little money as possible on their vehicles.

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AndroidMyAndroid@reddit

It's a "hobby" subreddit with 6 million users. There are a lot of people here who are not car enthusiasts, or who do not own cars, have never taken their car to a dealership, and who take their car the the dealership for everything from oil changes and car washes and up.

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iSlacker@reddit

Man, I found a local shop that will do a full diagnosis with pictures and everything for $135 on my BMW. That shit is worth every penny. I've paid the 135 had it be less serious than I thought paid it fixed it myself and still saved money and I saved the who knows how long it'll take to find a problem in an N55 BMW.

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libra-love-@reddit

We don’t know if it’s warranty until we find the issue. We had a brand new car come in for electrical issues with only 3k miles. We assumed it would be warranty. Until we found that a mouse had chewed through the wires. That’s not warranty. That’s a customer pay. We can’t predict why something happened so until we know what the issue is, we can’t tell you if it’s warranty or not

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Fragrant-Tale6415@reddit

The dealer themselves don't know if it's covered until they identify the Part Causing Failure which takes a certain amount of time. Manufacturers don't budge on their very complicated assertion of what's covered or not, and they need to know not only exactly what has failed, but HOW has it failed, before they will approve a claim.

If you don't agree to cover the cost ahead of time, should the repair be found non-warrantable, who SHOULD pay for that time spent diagnosing? The dealer? For your car?

But we are the crooks? Extortion? Dude.

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RevvCats@reddit

Seriously, if you want to see real diagnostic work go watch the YouTube channel South Main Auto. Eric digs into electrical systems and finds out what the fuck is going on, not just load up the parts cannon and cross his fingers. That’s the kind of work that’s worth its weight in gold.

kytulu@reddit

I did.

Enthusiasts do this all of the time for things like rod bearings or throttle actuators on BMW M cars or crossover pipes on Land Rover LR4s. If you have to have the guides for the timing chain replaced on the Land Rover V8's from the 2010's then a lot of people go ahead and do things like the water pump since you're already there.

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LordChungusTheBig@reddit

If you can spring it 8.5R is likely what I’m going to be upgrading my mk8GTI to. The R is just a lot better option for the climate I live in because of its AWD system. Still love my GTI to death but already ran up 67k miles in 2 years

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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AutoModerator@reddit

Policy discussion is welcome. However, if your post involves politics AND CARS, please consider submitting to /r/CarsOffTopic.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

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SeatPrize7127@reddit

Reddit's beloved Mazda tried to pull a diagnostic fee on me when I took mine in (it was 6 months old)

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TheGreatGriffin@reddit

We would only charge diagnostic if the repair is not covered under warranty. Like if you say the park assist doesn't work and I find the sensors smashed to pieces from that snow bank you ran into or something.

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Senent@reddit

What if the issue you’re having is caused by yourself because you damaged something? We try to explain to customers even when their car is covered under warranty that they will be liable for diagnosis costs if the issue is not a warranty claim.

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mustang-GT90210@reddit

They do it this way because if a customer comes in and is told "hey everything is covered, you have no worries," and then the repair needed turns out to be due to abuse/outside factors, the customer is likely to give terrible reviews, and speak poorly of the dealership to anyone who will listen. They feel lied to, and blindsided by a possibly large bill that, in their head "they shouldn't have to pay for."

Example, customer comes in with a 5000 mile car, complaining that it shakes at 50mph. Normally this would be wheel balance related. So the tech inspects the suspension, inspects the wheels, and finds a bent wheel. Now it's not a warrantable concern. And technicians get paid by the job, so most will outright refuse to "work for free." Warranty isn't going to pay for this job, so now it's the customers responsibility to pay for the work that has been performed.

By getting a diagnostic charge approved before work begins, the shop and the customer are on the same page.

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IndigoHawk4540@reddit

If a TV is broken, its likely a factory defect or premature failure of an internal component. After all, a TV is simply turned on and off. Conversely a vehicle could have been abused, modified, serviced by a 3rd party, in an accident, etc. A vehicle diagnostic would determine if a given issue/concern is in fact warrantable.

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ChuckoRuckus@reddit

A factory warranty doesn’t cover all parts, let alone all cause of failures.

This is the point. Just because you correctly diagnosed the fault, this doesn't mean you are entitled to the business from performing the repair

Perhaps you can start mind reading if that makes things easier for the problems car mfg. have created.

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Alarmedones@reddit

They go home and fix it dude. You tell them what’s wrong and they save thousands by doing it them selves.

It takes 10 mins to pull codes.

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DukeoftheGingers@reddit

PREACH BROTHER!!!

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xTRYPTAMINEx@reddit

This would be perfectly fine, if the issue was always fixed the first time every time. But it's not. And depending on what system is affected, repairs can add up very quickly replacing parts that don't need to be replaced because they weren't the issue.

gogojack@reddit

It was fun, but a money pit. Replacement was a convertible Mustang.

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LexKing89@reddit

Awe man, it’s a shame it was a money pit. Nearly everything old I want is a money pit 😭

How are you liking the Mustang?

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gogojack@reddit

It was totaled by a drunk driver.

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Small used car lot owner and salesman here. What drives me crazy? lets see

-People who walk onto the lot, look at a car, then walk away leaving the doors open while never once making contact with me.

-People who make an offer that's 30-40% under my price but end with saying it's in "CASH" as if that makes it special. Cash is all I accept. I do not take playstations, pitbulls, a horse, subwoofers or goats as trade or downpayment (yes those are all things I've been offered this year)

-Asking what my bottom dollar is or what's the least I'll take. I already put my best price out there. The internet exists, you can price shop me within a few hundred miles in seconds. My standard reply to that is just what's your top dollar, what's the most you can pay.

- Lying to me when getting financed. The bank will see how much you make, how many other loans you have and when the last car you got repo'd was. Lying to me doesn't get you ahead, it just wastes our time. There's a saying; Buyers are Liars.

-Thinking I'm in control of the interest rate. Nope. While it's true that some places will get a small kickback if they can sell a higher interest load, I'm not one of them, and try to get the best deal for my customers.

- Telling me you don't like the car or my price, then still expecting a test drive. You've already told me you have no plans to buy it. Why try to waste our time with a joy ride?

- People who hop in a car with close to 200k miles and then first thing they do is floor it to redline through all the gears. If you want a performance car, raise your budget and look at something with less miles. These cheaper cars with high miles aren't meant to be abused. That's how you kill them. The cars you see making it to 300k aren't seeing redline every day.

-expecting a car that's over 10-15 years old to be as nice as a new car. They're not and will not be.

-Pretending they know something about cars to attempt to point out an issue in attempt to lower the price. In my former life I was a mechanic, I just hated doing it every day. So I actually know what I'm talking about and regularly call out people on their bullshit. I love it when they go to check the coolant level AFTER a test drive. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've had to stop somebody from opening a radiator while the coolant is still at 210 degrees.

-people wanting more than retail for their trade in. Sorry bubba, your 2004 harley dyna (why is it always a dyna) is barely worth $4500, no way I'm giving you 5k as trade value.

-Expecting a full tank of gas. Sorry brenda; yes, the new toyota dealership down the street gave you a full tank for free when you bought yourself a new $65,000 SUV. You're buying your daughter a $5,000 Jeep, it's not the same thing.

-Talking SOOOOO much. I don't need to know the story of how you and your brother caught a flounder in the summer of 1981 using a fridge as a canoe and what you had for breakfast the next day. You haven't said anything about this car in the past 10 minutes, are you even interested?

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coffeeshopslut@reddit

Expecting a full tank of gas. Sorry brenda; yes, the new toyota dealership down the street gave you a full tank for free when you bought yourself a new $65,000 SUV. You're buying your daughter a $5,000 Jeep, it's not the same thing.

I like how people buying something that's $5000 expects a full tank. Like you're that cheap that you're gonna complain about like $50?

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MNAAAAA@reddit

People who walk onto the lot, look at a car, then walk away leaving the doors open while never once making contact with me.

I feel like I get mixed messages with this - if I'm just browsing with no intent to buy, I don't want to waste your time, so I just quietly look around and walk away. I hear other sales people all the time complain about "tire kickers," so I try to not bug anyone or draw attention to myself if I know I am just kicking tires.

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TheDirtDude117@reddit

My family has owned a small independent dealership that usually has less than 40 cars. ALL of them we have paid 100% for and not Floor Planned (used the bank's money) like new car stores or Buy Here, Pay Here.
We work with local and out of state finance companies (banks/credit unions etc) to help people get a reasonably priced car at a rate they can handle. We don't advertise beyond our own website and a sign, and have been in business for 2 generations, about 25 years.

We usually get lumped in with many new car stores when people come in saying we have vehicles marked up thousands when they are at retail.
The whole "Down-payments are scams, it goes in your pockets" seems to be very common now.

And the simple levels of insanity people have.

Most recently, a Person of Calories came in saying they wanted to test drive our Kia Soul. When we asked if they needed help financing or had their own she simply said "No, there's one in Atlanta (3 hours away) that I want and have a deposit on but I need to use this to drive me and my sister there to get it". Honestly, it was bold. I clarified by asking "So you have no intention of buying this one".

And she responded as if I'm annoying her with "I went to school with the owner's daughter, they said it's okay they let people do this all the time.".
Welp that's that, I went to get the keys, came out and the two Humpty Dumpty sisters were stress testing my bench outside when I asked which one of the owner's daughters they knew. "Oh the older one comes to my salon and I do her hair all the time" so I ask "Hey mom, when did I get an older sister" and she fires back with "Pretty sure I only had boys" The girl tried to double back on her words and talk her way into it but I kindly said we couldn't allow her to drive our vehicle on an extended test drive due to insurance reasons (true) and we definitely couldn't let it leave the state. And we got a 1 star review saying we wouldn't let her test fit herself into the car for fear that a Kia Soul that's designed for Hamsters couldn't handle 2 ladies in the 380s.

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obeytheturtles@reddit

"Down-payments are scams, it goes in your pockets"

Lol what? Like people are demanding zero-down financing as the default? There's no way people are that stupid.

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TheDirtDude117@reddit

A lot of people believe Down-payments go straight into the salesmen's pockets. On some "Buy Here, Pay-Here" places they makeup the interest, the monthly payment, and the down payment and a missed payment usually means a Repo. Most of the "down payment scam" people get their cars repo-ed.

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SciGuy013@reddit

y'know, people complain that school never taught them to be financially literate, and i kinda see where they're coming from, but then i read shit like this and i'm like, oh no, it's a them problem

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TheDirtDude117@reddit

Exactly. Some people can't afford a cheap car so they have to pay what they can for stuff.

It's predatory lending with a different name.

TheDirtDude117@reddit

I posted another in here, I have thousands!

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imaginaryhippo888@reddit

My uncle owns a shop called Al's Automotive. People come in all the time saying they went to school with Al and that Al told them they'd get a discount. Al is the name of my uncles dog.

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I think part of the issue is that before the internet, there was a lot more variability in pricing and discounts to be had. The ability to shop online has put a major dent in that, but you can't fault people for not knowing that it's changed. The customer has no idea that the dealership is only marking the car up $800, and trust in the dealers is at an all time low after the COVID era markups.

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IknowwhatIhave@reddit

Well, new or used prices depend on demand. It’s just that right now there is a lot of demand for most new cars. Last month Jaguar offered me 0% financing for 6 years on a new Ipace….

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obeytheturtles@reddit

Yeah slow play the fact that you've got a cashier's check in your pocket already and pretend like you are interested in financing a huge part of the car and they will bring down the price below invoice. Not sure how well that works these days, but it used to work great. Once the price is firm, tell them you are going to pay cash and they will grumble about it and close the deal.

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phr3dly@reddit

I used to low ball car dealers all the time and got some pretty good deals and some pretty angry salesmen...

I bought a Mazdaspeed 3 back in 2007 when they were just becoming available. In a 5 minute span I went from the sales manager literally yelling at me that he couldn't possibly sell one for $20K ($3K or so off MSRP) to running after me to close the deal when I was leaving the parking lot.

Na, it's one lobbying congress to keep direct car sales banned and then marking up cars they get instantly and then forcing customers to play a stupid game in order to not waste money.

Blaming this game on customers is just ridiculous, it's entirely dealerships that spend money lobbying for congress.

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MN-Car-Guy@reddit

No. If you felt that way you’d just buy from non-negotiating sellers, or just pay asking price. It takes two. Period.

There are several hundred one-price dealerships in the US. Carvana and Carmax. AutoNation. Lithia Drieway. And many, many smaller regional groups.

You absolutely can not do that with most dealers. In fact dealers are pissed off that scout wants to do it with their cars.

Dealerships are awful soulless places.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62721076/dealers-scout-to-skip-dealers-and-sell-directly-consumers-misguided/

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MN-Car-Guy@reddit

So you’re not advocating pricing transparency, you’re pushing for a manufacturer-owned retail chain. All else equal, you’d prefer to pay as much or more to buy direct (whatever that means), even if it were a one-price retail model (ex, Saturn or Scion).

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hutacars@reddit

So you’re not advocating pricing transparency, you’re pushing for a manufacturer-owned retail chain.

Can’t speak for that guy, but I’m fine with dealerships existing alongside D2C manufacturer-owned stores. More competition is great. Let the best man win.

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MN-Car-Guy@reddit

It’s happened before, and the D2C stores closed.

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RandyJackson@reddit

So youre ok with Tesla making 20% margins but a dealer making 6% margins is bad. I see. And you advocate for awful Tesla customer service. Got it

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hutacars@reddit

So youre ok with Tesla making 20% margins but a dealer making 6% margins is bad.

Correct. Tesla’s margins will be used to develop new products and improve existing ones. Next time I buy a car from them, I’ll benefit from the margin I paid them last time. The dealer’s margins just enrich some dealership-owning fuck, and I won’t see any return from that.

And you advocate for awful Tesla customer service.

It’s not awful though? The twice I’ve needed them, they came to my driveway and fixed it while I stayed inside and did my own work. Guess when the manufacturer has such nice margins heading their way, they can afford to create such a luxurious experience.

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RandyJackson@reddit

It’s even better when they cut their prices unannounced and stick their clients with vehicles worth less than half than they were new. It’s impressive to see when people bought the Model Y for $70k and then the new ones are now $45k and they don’t understand why their vehicle is now worth $25k. Award winning leadership right there.

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gor134@reddit

I work at an Audi dealership we do MSRP on custom orders all the time. You're just making a huge generalization about dealerships.

Sure my managers will market a "markup" on RS models but the reality is these almost all sell at or below MSRP, and the markup is just marketing.

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RandyJackson@reddit

I have people come in and pay msrp and taxes and that’s it. I also have people get discounts too. Sounds like you’re very unfamiliar with how dealers operate

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gor134@reddit

So if a dealer sold a car at MSRP no markup you wouldn't buy it? Interesting

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AndroidMyAndroid@reddit

The manufacturer suggests a sale price, then also tacks on delivery. The dealer sets their own sale price, then tacks on delivery and whatever other BS they think someone will not think twice about paying (like $400 for nitrogen in tires) and it's up to you to tell the salesman to cut that shit out of the deal.

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RandyJackson@reddit

If someone came in and said. I’ll pay Msrp and remove the add ons that would be an easy sale. I’d take it every day.

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KingMe091@reddit

I only sold cars for a little bit a few years back, but we always said that buyers were liars. Lying about trade condition is the most common, but lying about kbb trade in offers, offers from other dealerships, not wanting to tell you basic info like trade payoff, etc is totally common.

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NoStatistician990@reddit

And dealers/salesman lie the whole time saying there's no money left in the deal. In the meantime, you're making 10%+ off landed invoice price and financing kickback from manufacturer. You, as a salesman, are only making a pin and flat but the dealer is printing money lol, let alone the endless finance products that are just a blanket insurance policy that are marked up 1000%+. Nickel and dime'd the whole way.

phr3dly@reddit

Buyers are liars and dealers are stealers. Yeah I lie all the time when I buy a car. I show up under-dressed and when the salesman tries to divine my financial position I'll evade or lie.

On the other hand my local Mercedes dealer held onto a $20,000 check they owed me for 2 months ignoring emails, phone calls, and even in-person visits. Not until I paid my attorney whatever the hell he charges me to draft a letter did they give me the money they owed me.

One of the slimiest, predatory cope subs on reddit.

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Smitty_Oom@reddit

I got banned for stating that if that was true, that was unethical and preying on weakness/ignorance made the salesperson is partially responsible for ruining those people's finances/situation.

It was one of my proudest bans.

Don't buy non manufacturer extended warranty...only the "real" ones.....stories there too. -Internally lubricated- parts are an incredibly restrictive definition.

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phr3dly@reddit

If something is wrong, the advice is 'make a payment and we'll work it out'...which is exactly what will make it impossible to re-do anything....once you make one payment you are locked in.

I had a dealership try to Ricky Roma me to avoid returning a $1000 deposit on a special order that was 2 months late.

First the salesman and then the sales manager tried to psycho-analyze me, accuse me of not wearing the pants in my marriage, the works until I, very out of character, became loud and belligerent on the floor of the dealership.

Weirdest experience I've ever had.

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aquamanjosh@reddit

It’s not really unethical not to stop someone. A car salesman’s job is to sell the car it would be unethical if he signed up to sell cars and wouldn’t sell cars because he thought he had a crystal ball and could tell who was going to get repoed. That’s not fair to anyone involved the dealership owner, salesman, or customer because no one actually knows the future and assumptions well….. car salesman’s happen to be full of assumptions.

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t-poke@reddit

I hate to defend dealers and salespeople, but why is it expected of them and no one else to stop people from buying what they can’t afford?

If I walk into a Best Buy and put a bunch of expensive shit I can’t afford on a credit card, no one says anything.

cubs223425@reddit

Yes and no. If you go to a dealer with a secured loan, they have no business telling you off. However when the dealer is the one handling the financing, it's MUCH worse if they're working the numbers behind your back to screw you than if they are running your credit and seeing that you can't handle the loan.

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Trollygag@reddit

Selling is not the same as not stopping.

Your argument could be equally applied to drug dealers working for cartels or gangs, the organized labor exploitation of the Amazonian Amerindians/sub Saharan Africans by foreign mining companies, or call scammers ripping off senile old people and working for bosses.

There is no moral framework that absolves you just because of capitalism or a job description or having a hierarchy.

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aquamanjosh@reddit

Yeah it depends but if you just got a guy who’s a get me done you can even tell them not to buy the car. They look a you and say “oh I’m buying the car, give me that pen.” It truly isn’t always the car salesman convincing or pressuring. Sometimes it’s the idea of the car that can sell itself the strongest especially to someone with no wheels. I definitely hear what your saying though

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deleted_by_reddit@reddit

[removed]

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xt1nct@reddit

r/insurance is really giving them a run for their money.

All the comments there always excuse and protect the insurance companies. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s just a bunch of people hired by insurance companies.

Their opinion on “diminished value” is absolute garbage and not accurate. People are receiving 20% of value after major accidents, but those fuck tards claims 10% is max. It may be true in some states but in others you are eligible for 100% of value lost and not a penny less.

Fuck r/insurance.

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the_lamou@reddit

I didn't get banned, but I DID have a bunch of people who are so lacking in employable skills that their time is valued at $0/hr tell me that it's absolutely impossible to give the receptionist access to up to date information about what cars are on the lot, and that it's literally physically impossible to know where a car might be on the lot without advanced CIA-grade GPS tracking (never mind that you can, you know, just number parking spaces and update them in inventory software from your phone in seconds.)

It's an industry mostly made up of idiots who's primary qualifications is being willing to say anything to anyone at any time to make a buck.

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NoStatistician990@reddit

The car business in general has the shadiest/sketchiest people in it. It's very similar to mortgage brokers prior to the crash. From the bottom to the top (mechanics to dealer group owners). Most big dealer groups will hire anyone, have a ton of lawyers on retainer to cover their asses and its pretty much a free for all until theres litigation from a client.

All of yall complaining about techs being wrong once must habe never been to a doctor. I swear, you wanna see crooks, go to the doctor with something strange. 9 visits, $6k later and still no answer. "You appear healthy, we're not exactly sure...Let's schedule you a follow up 3 months from now (also a charge for the follow up)...and we'll see if the problem us gone"

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oryx-adept-@reddit

I spent two years working very close with most of our sales team. Sometimes you hear the term "were losing money on this", that can be true allllll the time especially over the last year or so. They aren't lying and there really may not be any more room in the deal even though to you it may seem silly they can't come down another 1000.

At least at my dealership they weren't lying but it's soooo hard to bridge the gap with customers as they come in with people already very much not trusting you. Genuine best intentions are not enough for most people with made up minds.

Also it's on average absolutely true that used cars are where a sales person makes their money, new cars are usually "minis" or smallest commission possible. So even though it's a bit "woe is me" you fighting for 500 off a base equinox or other cuv is just not a fun time for any sales person

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Accomplished-Exit136@reddit

I bought a used car from a dealership over 7 years ago, amazing used car that's still running strong today, and I got it for a steal. I asked the sales manager finalizing the paper work how much they made off it, he looked over a few things and said "$12". I asked him why he sold me such a great used car for so little profit and he said they made 5k off the person that traded it in and they'll make 3k off the next person who finances a new one instead of buying this used one.

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OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit

Also it's on average absolutely true that used cars are where a sales person makes their money,

It's where the dealership makes their money. Often (not every time) the salespeople get a fixed commission per unit sold. As one salesman friend (who works at a marquee brand dealership that spans multiple states) told me, he gets the same $250 commission no matter if he sells a Corolla or Audi R8. Whether the customer pays advertised price or not. He gets $250 and the rest of it goes to the dealership. He's not authorized to negotiate anything. He's just the messenger.

I've heard similar from other salespeople over the years.

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OsoRetro@reddit

Not a car dealer but am close friends with one.

Wife and I were at his house for dinner. She’s good friends with his wife. He’s not home yet, we’re smoking and hanging out waiting for him before we start.

He walks in, doesn’t yet realize my wife and I are over, says very proudly:

“Man, we were raping em on warranties today babe!”

If the dealerships go away, so do the service centers. You bought a Ford truck in bunagloo Iowa and overnight you now have to get it 200 miles each way to the Ford corporate service center... You're on your own for towing, and no loaner car.

Nevermind the economic impact it would have

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LiteratureSentiment@reddit

Do you think dealerships would go away if it wasn't illegal to buy directly from the manufacturer? It's very telling that you think dealerships can't compete in an actual free market.

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jrileyy229@reddit

There's way more to it than that... And obviously trying to have a real world discussion and not just be a reddit mob gets crushed out here.

Simply put, you lose dealerships, you lose service centers.

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LiteratureSentiment@reddit

Why would dealerships go away? Allowing for direct to consumer sales to be LEGAL doesn't mean dealerships no longer have a purpose.

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jrileyy229@reddit

And what would that purpose be? Just to test drive cars?

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LiteratureSentiment@reddit

To buy a new car much faster than from the manufacturer, to buy a used model, to get quality service, to get financing on a new or used car, just to name a few. Allowing people to order and purchase a car from Ford directly doesn't mean Ford dealerships no longer have a purpose. It just gives buyers more options and prevents dealerships from having a monopoly on the new car supply and being able to charge whatever they want. It's about having a free market. The fact that you think it would be catastrophic for dealerships is very odd.

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jrileyy229@reddit

Used and new dealers are very different model... Used car lots have nothing to do with this franchise model of new cars.

That's exactly my point, imagine going to test drive models and then going home to order it online because it's cheaper. That would be crippling. Or maybe they didn't have your spec that you wanted so instead of them ordering it for you, you just did it yourself and they made nothing. If you cripple the new car business, you're going to lose all your service centers. That's a big part of the network... And dealerships make basically no money off warranty work. All the service profits come from non-warranty work. So they'll just focus on that. If they're not selling new cars anymore, they'll just cut ties and stop doing warranty work.

This free market you speak of wouldn't work that way.... You would still pay the same amount for the car. Ford has long standing agreements with their dealers that they're going to sell them cars at invoice... Say 30k with a suggested MSRP of 33k and during COVID or whatever dealers were selling them for 35k.

Just because you can buy direct from Ford doesn't mean you're getting the car for 30k or even 33k... If the market supports it they'll just raise the sticker to 35k.

Tesla has done this several times, completely independent of say 'model years' or any kind of upgrade.. they'll just decide there is a 2k price increase starting tomorrow. GM has done this a bunch as well, middle of a model year the demand is so high they will just add 1k or 2k to the price... But instead of a markup called an ADM like the dealership would add, they will just change the base price on the website and update the window sticker.

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LiteratureSentiment@reddit

Every dealer I have ever been to has new and used cars on the lot. And to your point, the manufacturer can offer special dealership pricing and then charge regular buyers a higher amount. You also ignored my point about all the benefits a dealership offers with same day purchasing, financing, and other logistics. You seem to believe more than me that people will immediately boycott dealers if given the option. I think it will simply be something that a small percentage of people do, but most won't bother with the hassle.

Finally, if a manufacturer marks up the price, that makes that model more profitable and the sales will incentive further production of the model. If a dealer marks up the price, the manufacturer sees NONE of the profit. That's how dealers killed the Focus ST. Ford saw none of the profits from the markups and it was an unprofitable car for them to make.

At the end of the day, there is no logic towards making the purchase of a car directly from the manufacturer ILLEGAL. If a manufacturer wants to sell directly it should have that option. Nobody is harmed by direct to consumer sales other than the bottom lines of particularly greedy dealers.

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jrileyy229@reddit

I understand what you're saying... And I completely get it... Not saying any of it is wrong.

My underlying point was the public thinks if they just buy from the manufacturer, they're going to pay invoice pricing because that's what the dealer pays... no, you're going to pay the market price based on supply and demand. Just instead of this government mandated 'sticker' being a reference point that we go up and down from.... The MSRP won't even be a thing, it'll just be the car costs X.

So some flexibility would be nice as the consumer... But the uneducated take is that everyone will start saving thousands of dollars on car purchases wouldn't be true.

So yes, if the consumer is going to pay the same number ordering online or on the lot.

So based on that underlying principle... Wouldn't you rather be able to go to a lot and see stuff in person? Isn't it nice to have warranty service right down the road from you?

And people will say "stupid markup greedy dealer". "Added on these admin fees and financing origination fees" Well guess what, if people are buying them despite that stuff, that's the exact price the manufacturer is going to end up as the list price anywaym

The used car side of house has nothing to do with the dealership model. While many do have them so they can take trades and resell them, Literally anyone can open a used car lot and buy and sell cars. You cannot just go open a GM dealership and service center without getting GMs approval.

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LiteratureSentiment@reddit

At the end of the day this is a discussion over whether or not it should be legal by law to allow manufacturers to sell direct to consumer. Based on this discussion, do you really think it is good for everyone for that to be illegal? Everything we have discussed has come down to how cars wouldn't be cheaper from the manufacturer so it would end up not changing much. Originally you said dealerships would disappear if that happened. Do you still think that?

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jrileyy229@reddit

Yes, I do. There's so much overhead, and I get the consumer perspective... But when the dealer goes, the service center goes, then goes the sub shop and the coffee shop across the street who has 50% of their business from the dealership.

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hutacars@reddit

Nobody had any problems with the dealership model for the last 20 years

Yes, yes we did.

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SwiftCEO@reddit

What? A five year old Corolla with 70k miles isn’t worth just under the original MSRP? /s

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Kidney05@reddit

This turned me off from a Toyota dealer. Couldn’t believe what they were asking for for cars with 50k miles on them.

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SwiftCEO@reddit

Toyota dealers have lost the plot. They act like they’re selling limited run Lamborghinis.

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Discoamazing@reddit

I’m minivan shopping now, wanted to look at a Sienna— They said their entire allocation sells before they hit the lot, so I can’t even see one in person except for a purchased one that I can look at but can’t touch.

Whatever they’re doing is apparently working.

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Kidney05@reddit

I was in the same boat looking for a minivan and ended up with a Pilot lol

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Discoamazing@reddit

I'm surprised you didn't go with the Odyssey instead, any reason?

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Kidney05@reddit

We liked the infotainment system in the Pilot more and we liked it as a whole a little more

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kyonkun_denwa@reddit

My friend's brother was shopping for a minivan in 2023 and they were originally planning to get a Sienna, but they quickly gave up. Things are even worse in Canada, most Toyota dealers were telling them that Siennas had wait times of 2-3 years, and if they wanted one today, then they had to buy a used model that was selling for more than MSRP. Of course, if you were willing to pay a $15k market adjustment, then the dealer might be able to find a way to shorten the wait time.

ArcadianBlueRogue@reddit

It's dumb that it can go that high at all, regardless of credit and financial circumstances. There's some states where the cap is like 16% and that's reasonable for being a "bit of a risk" customer.

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Entire_Activity7391@reddit

It’s all risk based for the banks. If you have risky credit the banks know there is a high chance you’ll default on the loan. They are going to collect as much money as they can as quickly as they can to offset the likelihood of missed payments and repossession. Maybe it seems dumb but the subprime banks are very smart about how to stay in business.

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You_Harvest_Wind@reddit

Not always. I got a crap rate from the (expensive motorcycle) dealer with a near 800 credit score. The rest of the experience was so awful I didn’t fight with them, I just wanted out of there. I got the bike I wanted at an agreeable price. I just re-fi’d with my FCU as soon as I could.

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Entire_Activity7391@reddit

What bank gave you the crap rate? Powersport rates are generally higher than auto rates

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It’s worth that much to someone that won’t get approved anywhere else

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Muttonboat@reddit

The only thing ill say in CarMax's defense is that make buying cars as about as close to appliances as possible.

If the price was a little higher and it meant not working with a car dealership, sign me up.

Also there extended warranty is insane

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thisisjustascreename@reddit

Sales people don't set prices my dude they just soften the message.

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OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit

Very true.

All big dealership salespeople aren't authorized to negotiate anything. They might have a few things they can drop into the conversation like, "We'll fill up the tank for you." But, that's about it.

They are the buffer between the customer and management who do have authority to negotiate.

Why? For the same reasons that you don't have restaurant customers talking directly to the cook/chef and the same reasons that you don't have car shop customers talking directly to the mechanics doing the work or management setting prices for service/parts.

I'm not excusing it, just explaining it.

I recently had a big dealership salesman explain to me that he makes the same $250 if he sells a used Corolla or a used Audi R8. I was like, "You serious?!?!". He's like, "Yup." New car commission was different, but used car commissions were set at $250 a pop.

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srsbsnssss@reddit

then non mgmt sales is another unnecessarily layer, unless they really expect zero negotiations then at that point, the sales dept is completely unnecessary

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OldSchoolSpyMain@reddit

It's unnecessary from your (the buyer's) PoV, but not theirs. Remember, the salesman also facilitates the test drive(s), some paperwork, and general housekeeping. If you worked directly with the sales manager and finance manager, you'd be frustrated because you'd have to stand in line behind the other 10-20 customers there that day also finishing deals.

It's an efficient system just like a cook having a staff of waiters taking orders and running food is more efficient than a 1-man show (like a food truck). Yeah, food trucks work...until they get popular and the inefficiencies are exacerbated with more customers.

(just let me order online)

lol the same amount of staff are involved in processing your paperwork and shipping the car out to you. You think that Mr. Carvana is doing that solo? 😂

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srsbsnssss@reddit

it's unnecessary to most savvy buyers and there are more savvy buyers now than ever before with a wealth of info online

Oh Lord.

One of my biggest pet peeves is people bitching about customers, in any business, coming in "just before close."

If you don't want to work until your posted closing time (and after, given the expected time to process after close) then change the closing time. Period. End of sentence.

If you are open until 8, you should work until 8. If you want time to close the restaurant, dealership, or whatever, and if someone coming in 10 mins till means you get home at 10, then change the closing time to 6, so you can be home by 8.

It's really not that complicated and personally when I was on that side of retail I never had an issue working until the last minute of our official posted closing time. That's the whole point of having a fucking posted, official time!

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"Let me ask my manager." x20. I did the leaving thing, they come back with a good deal. Then they jerk me around with financing and 8000 warranties. Maybe you try to get people out quickly, but statistically that's not what's happened to me or my circle of friends.

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LordDarthShader@reddit

If you are the owner, I guess the profit margin on the sale plus the commission on the sale would make up for the two extra hours of work.

If you are an employee, you are allowing to work those extra hours for free. Here the employer is the one screwing you, not the customer.

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Juicyjackson@reddit

How people go into a dealer without having an idea about what they want is wild, when I go into a dealer, I already know exactly what I want...

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PabloIceCreamBar@reddit

The thing that is most amazing is even those customers that have done all the research and know exactly what they want when they walk in the door, the majority end up buying something else. Maybe something as simple as a different color, to a completely different model entirely.

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bearded_dragon_34@reddit

I’m usually not that person, but have been a few times.

In 2014, I was looking at a leftover 2013 Passat 2.5 SE or a current-model-year 2014 Passat 1.8 TSI.

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UnfitRadish@reddit

Those are always the people that know absolutely nothing about cars. You could bullshit them all day and they'd believe you. All it takes is for them to see a "cute car" or "cool car" and they'll be content driving it home. Not a care in the world if it's reliable or if they over paid.

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Larcya@reddit

That's the thing that annoys me.

Anytime I go into a dealership I get bothered within 10 seconds and I have to just suck it up because I'm not setting foot in your building without a clear idea of what I want.

The only dealership that doesn't do this shit is my local motorcycle dealership and I'm 95% sure that's because I'm on a first name basis with all of the sales people and they know if I need help I'll ask for it.

And I know why sales people basically have to do it, but it still annoys the fuck out of me.

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slow_cars_fast@reddit

Going to a dealer like CarMax is how you drive a bunch of different things and figure out what you want. If you're not into cars, it's possible you didn't think about what next until you got into a situation where you need something new.

Personally, I typically know what I want 3 cars from now, so that's not a problem. 😁

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Affectionate_Mud4516@reddit

And know how much I should be paying. Last time I had a whole spreadsheet printed out in my pocket with different down payments and different interest rates and corresponding monthly payments.

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SciGuy013@reddit

They think it’s going to be a terrible experience, so no matter what it becomes a terrible experience.

I'm trying to buy my first car myself and went in with an open mind, thinking that people are exaggerating how bad it is.

It's worse than people make it out to be.

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spicydrag@reddit

Best comment so far. I work with 21 dealerships. 11 of them I'd go to without hesitation for anything. The other 10 it depends on the purpose or absolutely not.

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corkscrew-duckpenis@reddit

I go to bad dealers besides where I live it’s a two hour drive to go somewhere else if I want something from a certain manufacturer.

Every transaction for a decade I have known exactly what I wanted and negotiated the price before setting foot on the lot and STILL the transaction is a nightmare.

Finance wants to do weird shit. The car has a recall they can’t fix and therefore can’t sell. The title is fucked up in some way. Bob is on vacation and obviously he has the keys for some reason. They forgot to ask for a third pay stub or something. The rebate they promised isn’t available after all. The car was already sold, but don’t worry here’s another one as long as I don’t really need the third row (I fucking do).

I grew up working at dealerships but holy shit do I now resent the hell out of them as they incompetently hold hostage cars I want to buy.

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the_lamou@reddit

They think it’s going to be a terrible experience, so no matter what it becomes a terrible experience.

I very much disagree. I've had exactly three unpleasant car buying experiences in my entire life (out of a total of maybe ten cars owned) and it was always the dealer's fault. And it almost always involves trying to be skeezy as fuck.

My latest one was yesterday. We might be moving to a different continent next year, so I'm downsizing my vehicle needs. We went to Hyundai to take a look at the Ioniq5, because it checks our boxes and is cheap enough that if I have to turn it in after three months on a one-year lease, who cares?

Salesperson was fine, great test drive, we came in with the intention of just test driving and not leasing right away, but liked it enough that we were ready to pull the trigger right then. So the finance doofus comes over... with a foursquare. The numbers are all kinds of bullshit and very obviously don't add up: it's a $59k car with regular negotiated sales prices of ~$55k and $10-15k in rebates nationally, and a ~$37k residual, so the actual lease cost should be ~$3,000. Meanwhile, he's quoting me a $15k one-pay and making up bullshit about how in NY you have to pay sales taxes on the full MSRP — you don't, you pay it on the full lease value, or final cap cost minus residuals, excluding rebates.

Then when I balk, he starts with the business negging "oh, sorry, if I had known you were looking for a more affordable payment, I would have done to the next trim down." No, buddy, I don't think $15k is a lot; I just think it's a lot for a Hyundai, and for an extra $4k, I can to back to an RS e-Tron GT, and don't think that I haven't realized that you're tossing a literal $8,000 of dealership fees in there. Like, what the fuck?

So it has nothing to do with expectations, and everything to do with assholes who aren't terribly bright and who are basically entirely unnecessary to the process(in asked several times for the total lease cost excluding taxes and fees and he kept just pointing to the monthly payment like an idiot.) At this point, you could replace the entire finance and sales department at most dealerships with the three valets and a couple of self-checkout kiosks and create a much better customer experience.

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95% of people are working M-F

People are very, very bad with money. At a high end dealership and I see the most ridiculous trades because people want “lower payments”. Like trading a Q5 with 10k negative equity for a POS KIA that’s 10k overpriced.

I’ve also seen a customer take a one year old BMW(full factory warranty) with drivetrain issues to an Indy shop to get fixed and come back to the dealer with a $25k repair bill expecting the dealer to pay it. When it would’ve been free at BMW.

The average customer is uninformed and not very bright. Those two attributes don’t go together very well when you’re trying to buy a used luxury vehicle.

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rugbyj@reddit

People are very, very bad with money [...] I see the most ridiculous trades because people want “lower payments”

Hey it's me in my early 20s. Not gonna reply to the OP because I'm not a car salesman, but I'll illustrate my point since I'm the other side of what you're describing.

I always considered myself smart (!), however had zero experience with financing. It was stressful, obtuse to understand under the kosh of a salesman, and embarassing because I had very little money.

I had been on a 3-yr PCP of a (new) Kia that was about to end. I came into the dealership and basically said to them; "I like my car, can't I just get a new PCP for it?". Alarm bells should have gone off in my head roughly 3 years prior to me asking this.

What they set up for me was a slightly better model of my own car, with slightly lower payments, for another 3 years.

What I realised years later was that funnily enough, I'm able to organise my own finance. I could have just done so to pay off the final lump sum, which would have come in under my payments over the same period too.

Now, over a decade later, I'm pretty well versed in leveraging my options for payments I can't just stump up the funds for. But Jesus did I make things hard for myself back then.

The top thing I'd say to my younger self, and others, is just to not feel embarrassed, and ask other people for advice. Because you might not know what to even google until someone tells you it's available.

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Gotcha. It's the "get an iPhone for $29 / month if you trade-in that iPhone towards a new one in two years or buy it out for $xxx" strategy, except with automobiles.

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vicelordjohn@reddit

Thanks for the explanation. I have never heard this in my life so I'm guessing you're not in the US.

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tduncs88@reddit

I'm in the US. Just had a few pen pals across the Atlantic back in the days of MySpace. One of whom bought a car with a PCP. I remember him starting to freak out a little bit as the balloon payments itself got closer to coming due. His parents helped him out by securing an actual personal loan for the balloon payment.

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eric_ts@reddit

In the US it is called a Balloon Payment Loan. They are illegal in many states and ill advised in all of them. It combines all of the worst aspects of leasing and financing.

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masterventris@reddit

Balloon payment loans seem to be more where you only pay off the (probably ludicrous) interest, and never pay down the borrowed amount until the end

PCP finance is more like financing half the car, with a deferred payment of the other half. And you can pay the deferred half by giving the car back if you want (for the dealer to sell). You will have paid half the purchase price off by the time you get to the final payment, so it is a lot less loan sharky.

The key part is the car is contractually valid payment for the balloon, so you can always just give the car back if you don't want to pay the cash. And it is very common to do so, and then just get new car on a new PCP plan.

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tduncs88@reddit

I'm california based, so it explains why I've never really heard the term. It's illegal here, apparently.

Yeah, balloon payments in any shape or form are bad news.

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rugbyj@reddit

Personal Contract Purchase, typically monthly payments against a portion of the vehicle, with an optional lump sump at the end.

But yes I also took drugs.

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goaelephant@reddit

... like a lease?

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Careful_Breath_7712@reddit

All good points, and it bolsters the fact that dealerships rarely suggest things to customers that put the customer’s best interests over the dealership’s best interest.

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fcau_sales@reddit

Why is it always fucking Audis?

>People are very, very bad with money.

Something else happened, either before or after, I forget, but the bottom line is it was just people rolling over their negative equity onto cheaper luxury cars

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Arnas_Z@reddit

Someone was upside down on their F10 M5 so traded it in for something cheaper

Someone was upside down on their firstgen R8 V10 and traded it for the F10 M5

What do you mean by upside down? I get that they traded in a car that's more expensive for a cheaper one, but why?

Does upside down mean that the value of the car in it's current state is less than the amount owed on it?

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goaelephant@reddit

Upside down / negative equity means you owe more than the car is worth. For example the loan is $125,000 but the car worth only $90,000. Lets say you divide that $125,000 Audi R8 loan by 60 (5 years x 12 months). Monthly payment of $2,083. To keep the math easy, lets assume that the $125,000 loan already takes into consideration any down payment, interest, tax, registration, fees, etc.

Now, picture you suddenly dont make the high salary you used to make. You got demoted at work, or fired & your new job pays less. The $2,083 monthly payment is killing you.

So you decide to sell the Audi R8. Problem is, its worth $90,000 but your loan has $125,000 remaining. Selling it will cover $90,000 of the loan but you still owe the bank $35,000 because the loan worth more than the car. This margin is called negative equity.

Good news, though. Instead of selling the car and dealing with this, you can trade it in at a dealership and they will buy the car from you. Lets assume they will honor the same $90,000 selling price of the old Audi R8. You are still on the hook for the $35,000 - but if you finance another vehicle from the dealer, they can "roll" that $35,000 "into" a new loan. This alone is going to cost you $583 per month.

In this case, the guy wanted to finance a BMW M5 F10. It was used and worth about $50k. Again, to keep math easy, lets say $50k is all-inclusive price of everything.

So $50k M5 plus the $35k to pay off the remainder of the R8, youre at $85k. Monthly payment $1,416.

So the person was saving $600/mo to "downgrade" to an F10 M5, which actually has 560hp compared to the R8's 520hp. He was able to keep his expensive taste of luxury/sport cars while going for a cheaper monthly payment.

I dont recall if those are the actual numbers, but hopefully you get the point.

I hope that person is in a better place now, or maybe hes not. Maybe he ended up being $25,000 "upside down" on the F10 M5 and went to a car dealership that had a $18,000 old E55 AMG W211 and now "only" pays $716/mo for a car with just under 500hp.

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Arnas_Z@reddit

Ok, makes sense. Thanks for the explanation.

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CorneliusVan@reddit

Car journalist with experience in both sales and service at a large independent dealer. I've become rather cynical.

Service: People don't respect time, don't respect experience, and hear what they want to hear. We try to be honest, and sometimes there isn't a clear answer to your check engine light. It could be this, it could be that, hard to say for sure since the telemetry we're seeing is just barely outside of spec, and there's no smoking gun at the moment. One fix is $300, one fix is $1500. If you want a solution now, let's try the cheaper one first and see. Otherwise keep driving for a bit and see if it worsens so we can track it down. Sound good? Great.

Perform repair. Reset codes. Test drive checks out, but customer advised error codes may return after more driving, at which point we're looking at the costlier repair. Customer understands, pays and leaves. Calls back the following day irate that their check engine light is back on. "You told me it was fixed! I demand you (destroy your schedule for the day and) fix this now (for free) or I'll tell everyone (on whatever car groups they're in)!"

Happens all the time. Can't fucking win.

"Hi, my car is leaking coolant from the back of the engine; you replaced my radiator 6 years ago, this is outrageous." Well, the radiator wouldn't be leaking from there...

"We just did this two years ago, why are we doing it again?" You opted for the cheap aftermarket part that I advised against for this exact reason. Actually, I even made notes about it.

"But (other shop) said they could do it for less!" Well I have the car here, I know what's going on, we've done a lot of these. It's not cheap, but this is what it costs to do it properly, and not think about it again. If the other shop is honest and knows what they're doing, they'll probably tell you the same thing if you take the car there. Otherwise OF COURSE they're quoting you less, they want you in the door. (Or, you know, you're just fucking lying, because I know that shop and that's not what he would have said)

And then the bitching about the diagnostic. Even a lot you in this thread are doing it. Give it a rest. Some dealers are better than others, but every customer is trying to save money, and we have to pay the bills somehow. You say "bro it literally takes five minutes to scan it and guess," I say if I did that for free for everybody off the street who thought it was that easy, I'd be lined up all day with time wasting freeloaders and we'd go under. Sometimes "bank 2 sensor 2 heating circuit open" is a pretty conclusive 5 minute investigation, sometimes "fuel trim max adjustment bank 1" is the start of a HUGE can of worms. If we pull apart the top of engine to diagnose that fuel trim and find a failing intake gasket, I'll waive most/all of the diag fee as it's kind of baked into the repair at the point, or vice versa (and I won't ding you for the full amount of diag on the oxygen sensor, either - it was only five minutes).

Sometimes I'll advise hey, this might take a long time to track down, I might need four hours with it in just diag time. Six hours get spent because my tech refuses to let a problem go unsolved, and wants to be dead ass certain before he calls a $3000 DME - and then the customer balks and walks, and bitches a storm about paying four hours for "nothing (and why did it take so long?)."

For the record, if it's an existing customer who I know will pay for repairs if I say he needs them, I will happily create time in a day to do a quick scan and/or test drive, on the spot, for free. Minimum diagnostic fees exist to cover the losses time thieves create.

It's like restaurants charging $3 for pop. Yeah, it's an egregious markup on the pennies of syrup, water and gas in that glass. You see that, and bitch that the restaurant (that I also used to work in) is making a mint. What you don't see is that that money covers an idiot (the same idiot who balked at the DME) demanding a refund on a well done striploin because it was dry (duh) and took too long (duh). We only had a few bucks margin in that steak, and now we're out the whole cost. (yes the server should have managed expectations better, but I can only blame her so much, because she's a twenty-one year old student who spends her evenings dealing with assholes like DME guy and has been kinda shellshocked into a moderate substance abuse problem)

And don't even get me started on "I read on the forums..." You don't know shit about fuck. I say this because I used to be that guy, and I, in fact, did not know shit about fuck. Let the cooks who cook for a living do the cooking. You can request we do a specific job you read about, you can't request recompense when it doesn't work (but we did find your wheel bearing is basically bluetooth at this point; are you sure you wouldn't rather we do that?).

Sales: Wow financial literacy is non-existent.

If your first inquiry is "how much is the monthly payment?" I already know this is gonna be a waste of time. A unfortunate amount of what we do feels like deliberately allowing time to be wasted, but that's the nature of the biz, I guess. I couldn't stomach it for more than a year.

It's also a very greasy, unromantic industry. Dealers flip cars to each other knowing there's issues that have been concealed, and then lie when you try to fight them on it. It really feels like scam or be scammed at times.

Sometimes you're forced to make tricky decisions when a unit you've bought starts acting up, and the fix will destroy your margin and then some. Make a quick band aid fix and graciously include a (cheap) aftermarket warranty? Auction it and it make it someone else's problem (and then try to stonewall them when they come back complaining)? Just eat the loss and hope you'll make a good returning customer down the road?

A lot of these cars and have been through a few dealers, and came into the dealer network through a no questions asked low-ball trade-in. No one knows anything about these cars. Who owned it? Did they take care of it? Did they service it regularly? Did they smoke? Is this going to be a good car? Bro, I have zero fucking clue. I've seen enough exploded Toyotas and bewilderingly reliable Aston Martins to not know what to believe anymore. We're all operating on the basis that it'll probably be fine, and if not, we'll do our best to work with you and make it fine.

A lot of people really do not even begin to value trade-ins/selling us a car appropriately. You're coming here trying to unload a car, and not only am I saving you the enormous hassle of softly step into my shoes and be a salesman, I'm also absorbing a risk, offering you cash for your shitbox right now, not knowing if I'm buying a grenade that you may or may not have knowingly tried to put the pin back into. I need to account for that, and I also need to account for the fact your shitbox almost certainly needs tires and brakes at the very, very least to be saleable. (Toyota/Lexus people are the worst for this - "oh it always starts and drives, hasn't needed anything, my nephew said that error light is nothing." Uh, no, I had a tech check while we were talking; you need tires, brakes, every control arm, AT LEAST two cats and oxygen sensors, and it'll still be a rusty shitbox). And for the love of all that is holy, this is not Bring A Trailer. If you think your car is worth that, try Bring A Trailer. (why not? Is it perhaps, because you don't want the hassle? Or maybe because your car isn't as nice as you're telling me?)

For sales and service, look man, I'm trying. It doesn't benefit me in any way to sell you a bullshit fix or a broken car. Even in the case of hateful piece of shit that I just want gone, regardless of which side of the shop I want it gone from, I have to make sure it's done right even if we take a loss on it, or else that headache will come back. I never want to see cars come back beyond scheduled stuff, especially if it's a real mistake (and they do happen despite our best efforts, a lot of this is guessing and gambling), because I can almost guarantee I am at least as pissed off about it as you are. I want you to leave happy, I want you to trust me, and tell your friends to trust me, and grow this business.

There's no benefit to giving you the shaft. I want you to feel good about your car as much I want to make a living, so that I can trust I'll be able to keep making a living. We both want to sleep well tonight.

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Clareth_GIF@reddit (OP)

I've seen enough exploded Toyotas and bewilderingly reliable Aston Martins

Amazing 😂.

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Vantage_007@reddit

I've dailied Lexus sedans for over a decade, and my V8 Vantage (which I track) has been the most reliable car I own by a wide margin.

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Vantage_007@reddit

100/100. Have many upvotes.

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soundawake@reddit

As someone who works in sales and used to work in service (not automotive), I felt this in my bones lol

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FriendlyFire_2322@reddit

Mazda salesman here. Buyers are liars. You have to take literally everything a customer says with a grain of salt, because salesman have a bad reputation many people think it’s ok to lie to us/ treat us like garbage. One teenage girl tried to sic her cop uncle on me, lying saying I told her I don’t want to deal with her and yelled at her. In reality I just kindly told her if she has any questions I can’t answer my manager would be able to. He came to the store and tried to get me out of a meeting to fight me. No joke.

In regard to annoying customers by far it’s the “I just want to sit in it, and compare it to every other single car in the market” people. Like you did your research online before you came, you should narrow down your search before you get here so you don’t waste the time of 10 different people. The problem is some salesman are genuinely greasy bad people, but most of us are just dudes with jobs who like these cars. Mazdas are good cars, I genuinely like helping people, but sometimes I want to quit cause how bad the average American consumer is.

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coherent-rambling@reddit

“I just want to sit in it, and compare it to every other single car in the market”

Yeah, that's me. And I'm not about to apologize for it. If you don't want me to waste a bunch of your time, kindly leave me alone while I sit there with no keys. You shouldn't shame anyone for wanting to compare all the different ways they can spend $30,000+++. I sure as hell shame car salespeople who clearly haven't driven their competitors.

Mazda dealers seem particularly bad about this; they seemed pretty chill 10 years ago, but the upmarket push has given them luxury car small-dog syndrome. I was recently looking at CX-90's and took two separate test drives to see how I fit. I have long legs and struggle with leg room in a lot of cars, and I was having a hard time getting comfortable in the 90. I'd have been perfectly happy to sit there and listen to the radio in the parking lot for another half hour to see if I could find a good position for the seat and steering wheel, but the salesman kept being pushy, asking what I was uncertain about and trying to keep a conversation going. I didn't want a conversation, I wanted to get comfortable in the seat without answering 20 questions. I bought a Honda Pilot. It's worse in every single way than a CX-90 except it's got slightly more driver legroom and the dealer left me alone for a while.

I drive a lot for work. I'll do a short test drive to make sure the acceleration and noise level are okay, but a 5-10 minute test drive doesn't tell me how comfortable I'm going to be on a 4-hour drive. This also puts me in a position where I find it genuinely reasonable to cross-shop completely different segments, because my criteria are basically "AWD and comfortable". It could be a car, 2-row crossover, 3-row crossover, or a truck; they'll all do what I need.

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FriendlyFire_2322@reddit

In the nicest possible way, you seem like an asshole to work with. I literally have to go out there and assist you unless you look me in the eyes and say “ I don’t want to work with anyone, please unlock the vehicle. If I need assistance I will ask”. And you don’t seem to have good reading comprehension. I have no issues if you want to come check out the cars and compare them. The problem is when it’s a blatant waste of your time and mine. I have customers who will look at me and say “well I don’t like Mazda but I promised my son I would drive the cx5, cx50, cx30, and cx90 before I go buy a Subaru tomorrow.”

Like dude, you know you’re wasting your time and mine. I understand it’s a major purchase, and I want you to be fully confident in the fact you’re making a well informed decision, but be realistic. I don’t want to spend an hour in the sun/heat for no reason. And it happens all the time.

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coherent-rambling@reddit

My reading comprehension is at least as good as your writing - you're now adding context that was literally not present in your first comment and using it to claim I'm wrong.

You said that it was annoying when someone wants to sit in every single car on the market. You did not say those people had already decided on a different car; that's a different matter entirely. You have now also conflated "sit in" with "test drive", which places different demands on your time.

As for me being an asshole... Maybe, but mostly I'm socially awkward. You're the gregarious salesman who is supposed to be a people person and read between the lines of a social interaction. I participate in a car-salesman/consumer interaction every few years, you do it multiple times per day. You definitely need to say hi, yes. But you do not need to shadow me every moment I'm on your lot. I've had plenty of salespeople from other brands tell me to go look around, take my time, etc, and flag them down when I'm ready to talk. Mazda salespeople are the only ones I've personally encountered who will stay attached to me until I directly ask them to leave me alone.

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just_dave@reddit

Having recently in the market for a car, if dealers just let the "I just want to sit in it" folks actually just sit in it and not try and get all their info and play all their sales tactics the minute someone walks in the door, life would be better for everyone.

Literally I do just want to sit in it to see how the seat feels and also see how much the setting sun blinds me off the Center tablet and chrome

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phr3dly@reddit

“I just want to sit in it, and compare it to every other single car in the market” people. Like you did your research online before you came, you should narrow down your search before you get here so you don’t waste the time of 10 different people.

Each time I’ve looked for a car I always went to atleast two other of it’s segment rivals for a test drive first. Even if you’re fully sure on one of them I think it’s still worth checking since you never know you might find something you don’t like.

Once a car is decided I’ve also shopped the different dealerships for whoever can give the best deal whether it’s trade in value or included services. I wouldn’t need to waste your time in person for this if you just deal through email or call but sadly not all dealerships want to do this for some reason.

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hertzsae@reddit

There is so much about the feel that you just can't get off a spec sheet and the feel is far too personal to truly trust other opinions. As a Mazda rep, the feel is where you win, so you should get that. You'd also get paid a lot less per car or your dealer would have 1/4 of the staff of you only dealt with buyers. And frankly, I'd rather not waste your time, but you insist on sitting in the back seat while I do a test drive.

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PabloIceCreamBar@reddit

Someone from the dealership being in the vehicle is an insurance requirement for a lot of dealerships.

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hertzsae@reddit

Sure, but then blame the insurance company, not the customer. Spending time with customers that aren't going to buy us the cost of doing business. There'd be little reason to pay salespeople so much if everyone walking in the door bought a car.

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PabloIceCreamBar@reddit

I think you’re misconstruing what the original poster meant. We literally have people that come in the door saying “I’m test driving a WRX, a Camaro, a Wrangler, a Tacoma and an A5.”

That’s what is meant by wasting time / needing to do research. Do you want an AWD sedan? A luxury coupe? A pick up truck? What exactly meets your current needs.

You dont know what its like until some lady makes you take her or 5 different test rides because she swears the seats were different. Well the red car had firmer seats lets try that one again.....

or the customers that need to test drive a specific car. like this is our "test drive vehicle" im not digging out stock #214141414 from the back corner of the lot because you need to test drive the Green one......

so, so many more

after 2 years I quit and i can understand why salesman are miserable. people suck and make the job 10x worse then it needs to be

do your research online. know what you want and come to me as educated customer. makes my life sooooooo much easier. "hi im looking for a premium trim Cross track in Silver or Black"

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Donr1458@reddit

So I presume you are always refunding customers every time you do a repair and it was an incorrect diagnosis, right?

The reason you can diagnose so many things so quickly has to do with the engineers that designed those systems to make it easy on you. AKA - me. YOU’RE WELCOME. This would be the reason you’re paying so much for the diagnostic equipment. It’s not some magical skill you have. Most all of the time that diagnosis was provided to you by someone like me.

The technician with the most experience that does work fastest does actually get paid the most. When the book time says it’s a 4 hour job and he does it in 3, he still gets paid for the entire job.

You aren’t spending that much time diagnosing. You’re just padding your bills, which is unethical.

The cost of doing business does get passed down. The services that customers use get built into their bills. But a customer that comes in for paint work doesn’t get the alignment rack built into his bill. That’s already built into the bills when doing alignments. What you’ve actually admitted to doing is an unnecessary service for your own peace of mind and protection that the customer did not request, then charging them for it.

By the way, it is not recommended from all OEMs to scan the car for every job. If you replace my tires, are you scanning codes? If you take a bumper cover on and off are you scanning codes? Of course not. If you were such a great tech and so good at your work, you would have the judgment to know that not all repairs require a scan before and after. The fact that all you can do is parrot what a guideline might say without the judgment to know better tells me you don’t deserve a higher rate.

And finally, what YOU are missing is that if these shops have so much work, why are they padding bills? They could just do the work and serve customers honestly. The fact that both shops that recommended the unnecessary scans followed up with me asking when I could bring the car in tells me they wanted the work and had the time. I rejected them. Not the other way around.

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PioneerDingus@reddit

Dismal communication skills
Not in touch with reality

I will preface this with saying that I am aware that a large percentage of dealerships are owned and staffed by unpleasant and stupid people. I don’t work at such a place with those kinds of people. I enjoy being straight forward with people, makes my life easier.

The number one thing that drives me up a wall is piss poor communication skills from prospective buyers. This takes many forms. First and foremost, the number of grown adults who don’t have their voicemail set up and can’t answer their phone, and then call the dealership saying “nobody contacted me” is absolutely insane. The number of grown adults who answer the phone with “What?” is unfathomable. The rest of the conversation is just one word mumbled answers as their two last brain cells hope to collide again.

Everyone’s time is more important than mine. I’ll call someone back when they ask, they won’t return my call for hours, sometimes days, but if they have to wait 10 minutes, I’ll get a passive aggressive email from them. Sorry I can’t have price breakdowns for 4 different cars fall out of my ass, I’m with a customer who is at my desk, I can’t drop everything I’m doing at a moments notice.

People not being upfront about their goals and expectations. We all hate spending half a day buying a car right? I want to get from introduction to “am I selling you a car or not?” as quickly as possible. If you tell me your expectations and intentions up front. We will speed run this process and get you in and out as soon as possible. It’s not enjoyable or efficient to spend my entire working day with one customer.

I’ve had so many customers say things like “I didn’t think this would take so long” after dragging out the buying process over hours over the most arduous shit.

To my second point of not being realistic…

This is 2024, shit is more expensive than it used to be. You’re not getting a new Palisade for $350 a month with $2000 down, no trade, for 60 months. It’s not my fault you didn’t budget or set expectations ahead of time. We’re not going to lose 5k selling you a car over that.

You saw our lease special on the Ioniq 5? Awesome! Did you read the fine print that says “DOES NOT INCLUDE SALES TAX, TITLE, LICENSE, APPLICABLE FEES?!” No? Perfect! Did you read the part that says “SE RWD STANDARD RANGE, NOT AVAILABLE IN ALL MARKETS?” No? Perfect. That amount is either getting added to your payments or you can put it down. No, you can have it both ways, and no we’re not discounting the car an additional 3k to get there. This more expensive version already has a 4k dealer discount and 15k in rebates.

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sohcgt96@reddit

People not being upfront about their goals and expectations. We all hate spending half a day buying a car right? I want to get from introduction to “am I selling you a car or not?” as quickly as possible. If you tell me your expectations and intentions up front. We will speed run this process and get you in and out as soon as possible. It’s not enjoyable or efficient to spend my entire working day with one customer.

I haven't but I've had lots of friends who worked at dealerships and some who still do. So I specifically make a point to be clear about my intentions if I'm talking to somebody and if I'm there with intent to actually purchase somebody. You know what I've found makes the process go really damn smoothly? Knowing what you want, knowing about what its worth, what your financials look like, and not actually walking onto the lot without an agenda.

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PioneerDingus@reddit

Bingo! The single worst kind of customer is the one who walks through the door with absolutely zero idea of what they want and also no ability to have an opinion. They can’t tell you what they like or don’t like about their current car. They have no specific needs or wants for their next car. It’s like dealing with a petulant toddler. They are also the type of person who will reject the first vehicle you show them after wasting 15 minutes asking qualifying questions about how they use their car, must haves, etc.

“Oh! It doesn’t have a sunroof…I really want one.”

“Well, Susan. Remember 38 minutes ago I asked you if there are any specific features that you would like to have in your next vehicle and you said “no, I don’t need anything fancy”, that’s literally why I chose this car, had to move 8 other cars to unblock it and then brush all the snow off while it’s 9 degrees outside.”

With that type of person I’ll show them two cars and if they’re still not interested and not at all zeroed in on anything, that’s when I say “sounds like you have some more research to do regarding what’s important to you. My next appointment will be here in 10 minutes. Any questions before I cut you loose? No! Great. Here’s my card bye bye!”

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LiteratureSentiment@reddit

So you have deceptive lease specials with lots of fine print and then you're mad that people fall for the trick and want the deal that your dealership advertised to them? Besides, you're not guessing what your fees are, they're just hidden costs that you already know - and you're mad that people have the audacity to be unhappy about that.

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PioneerDingus@reddit

Thank you for proving what many others here have pointed out. Most customers not only don’t know what they are talking about, they then have the audacity to take an attitude over what they don’t know.

We* don’t choose the specificities of a given lease term or special. Those come from the manufacturer.

Please enlighten me as to how the manufacturer can advertise their lease special and have it be accurate at the individual level to every single person who sees it. You won’t be able to because it’s not possible. If 20 people are in a bar watching the TV and an advertisement for Hyundai comes on and says “The 2024 December Sales Event! Leases on the 2025 Elantra for $199/mo with 3k due at signing” (and in the text below very clearly says does not include sales tax, title, license, etc) how can you assume that number would be accurate to everyone around you? In that bar you will likely have people who not only live in different counties with different sales tax rates, they might even live in a different state. Within Illinois for example, your tax rate can be as high as 9.5% or as low as 7% and if you’re in Chicago proper there’s a monthly use tax on leases as well.

For the sake of simple math, let’s say the total sales tax is $3,000, that amount gets either rolled into your payments OR you will have to pay that upfront in addition to the amount specified in the ad. For every change of $1,000, a monthly payment on a lease will change by about $30.

We hammer this into people over the phone, over the internet when providing quotes, etc. They’ll say “yes I understand” and then when they arrive at the dealership and see the same numbers we sent them possibly hours before, we get “oh so you won’t match the lease special?!” That IS is the fucking lease special. Everyone from Mitsubishi to Porsche advertises their leases that way. There is no other way to do it.

Very interesting replies. Thank you to all who participated 👍.

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RIG_PIG69@reddit

Not a dealer but imagine tire kickers coming in wasting your time then demanding ridiculous price cuts and other terms.

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Juicyjackson@reddit

After what happened during covid with dealers asking $100k for Corollas, I have absolutely 0 sympathy for any dealers.

Cashiers don't get paid a commission.

Most salesman at dealerships get paid a commission where the more they sell cars for and the more cars they sell, they get paid more...

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Specialist_Ad9073@reddit

Oh no! People getting paid more! Quick, someone grab my fainting divan.

You sound like the walking bad day I mentioned earlier. You walk in the door antagonizing the person who will be working with you before they make a first impression.

People like you are why we lost Circuit Cities and only have Amazon.

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dcux@reddit

Circuit City went in the shitter for a whole lot of self-imposed problems.

It dumped sales of popular appliances.
When it spun off CarMax, it let a lot of talented management go with it.
Stores became too impersonal and too large.
As Best Buy took off, Circuit City became merely reactive and not innovative
To please Wall Street analysts, it went on a store expansion spree that resulted in too many stores in dicey neighborhoods.
To save money, it stopped paying commissions to its sales force and then fired 3,400 of its most experienced sales people.
When the going got tough, too many C-suiters and directors came and went.
Commercial credit became tight.

I'll admit, I've bought cars a few times in the past, just because the price was too good not to.

Back in 2008 when the economy was crashing and GM was literally going bankrupt I was in the market for a truck. I stopped by a Chevy dealership one Saturday. The place was absolutely dead. Hundreds of cars on the lot and zero customers, one salesman who was playing on his phone.

I drove off that day in a $58,000 MSRP pickup (Chevy 2500, Duramax, 4WD, CC, LB, nice trim) and paid $38,000 for it. Drove it for 3 years before selling it for $35,000.

I'm sure somebody lost money on that deal. Not sure if it was the dealership or GM, but they wanted to sell badly enough that I bit, even though I hadn't intended to buy a car that day.

Likewise my C7 Corvette GS. After the C8s were announced the prices on C7s were just insanely good. $15K off MSRP was too good to pass up. Again was able to sell it into the strength of the Covid used car market a year later and actually make $9K off the deal.

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Specific-Gain5710@reddit

It was the dealer that lost money. There may have been some rebates in there but they were doing everything they could to get rid of those trucks.

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hertzsae@reddit

They'd get paid a lot less per car if they didn't have to deal with your kickers.

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Jimbenas@reddit

Sometimes I’ll be interested in a car but it’s quite far. I’ll usually go test drive one at a close dealership and then see if I like it before I go drive out to look at the one I actually want. Not really a tire kicker just a tester. It’s not my fault they wanna price their cars uncompetitively.

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Pliskin_Hayter@reddit

I work in parts, but I talk with the sales guys/gals enough.

Customers seemingly get their advice on how to buy a car from morons on tiktok who know NOTHING about how to buy a car. Or their dad bought a new car 20 years ago so they want a big discount for repeat business. Some customers have the most ridiculous notion of pricing and they want everything for free. They want floor liners, tow packages, running boards, etc. Thousands of dollars worth of shit, just because. Free.

Most dealers are making maybe 3-4k on a used car in most cases. They can't just knock off 2k because you asked. $500? Maybe. If thats the deal breaker they probably will. But beyond that? Probably not happening unless it was overpriced initially.

On the service/parts side of things, costs are kind of ridiculous right now. In my area, $200/hr is like the bare minimum for a dealership. The price of shop supplies and parts have gotten laughable. On 1qt of synthetic oil that gets sold for like $11 as part of the service dept's fixed pricing for services, we're paying almost $10 for it. Bulk oil is a bit better with us paying just under $5 and pricing it at 8 something. A factory set of pads and rotors are like $250 an axle.

The dealership doesn't set the prices for hard parts. The manufacturer does. We sell it for what they say to sell it at. If we don't, we get in trouble.

Most customers dont ask "probing questions" and even if you went out of your way to discuss car features, most customers really dont seem to care. As a salesperson it usually doesnt seem to matter if you know anything about what your selling. It can help but, with how customers generally are it doesnt make much of a difference from what I've personally seen.

Most customers are terrible to deal with because they just want to to just come in, walk around, point a car and demand a random number as a discount despite not knowing the 1st thing about that vehicle or why it costs what it costs to begin with.

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spicydrag@reddit

In my experience (Chevrolet Rep). A lot of that comes down to having 17+ models that all have a few things change every year, that all have major enhancement every 4-5 years, and all have 100+ stand alone options that are also packaged together sometimes.
(It's a mess i know, hopefully we get closer to Toyota and just have 4 packages to pick from and call it a day) Plus the typical sales person has less than 4 years of experience with a dealership while doing many other items beside product knowledge. Not to mention we have A lot of multi line stores so they have Buick/GMC too. A number of guests now have researched the specific model they want and know more details about it than a typical sales consultant. The ordering managers usually are the most knowledgeable these days when it comes to product knowledge.

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Lol. I’ve done jobs where you need to know MUCH, and I mean much more information then a few combination of trims for cars.

If you want to be a great salesman, you will do your homework. Imagine going to buy a car, and any question you could have, the salesman is able to respond quickly and clearly. Without hesitation.

This is the reason I buy my cars privately most of the time. Dealers and their employees aren’t exactly bright. Hell, when I was just a young back door mechanic, I used to talk to the service department at the dealer thinking they would know something… oh boy….

Last time I had an alignment done at a dealer, they left one side of the car untightened! I only luckily noticed cause I planned on putting my car on a lift for some other work. Imagine what would have happened if I just drove off Willy nilly without a clue. And this isn’t only my experience with one dealer but many different ones in my city. They are monkeys with wrenches.

I think the guy who was working on my car got fired after I had a talk with the managers.

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Remember also that the turnover is insane. Anyone who has worked a retail job knows the public can be grueling.

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spicydrag@reddit

And they do for the most part. They know that different in trims and engines available and colors and main aspects. But its hard to know the hundreds of options on each trim or hundreds of options. Like what trim has black door handles or heated wiper park. At the same time its easy to answer any guests questions. They have a order guide at their fingertips.

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verdegrrl@reddit

Don't forget the changing lease/purchase programs on various models that are adjusted at least once a month. You have to make sure you not only find the right car for the client, but that it also fits their financial needs. It is a waste of time to land someone on a car that won't fit the budget.

It doesn't usually matter. They can sell to 90% of customers without knowing a thing about the product. A salesman is there to make a sale, not be an encyclopedia of the brand, even if the two should be pretty closely related.

People go and buy $1,000+ phones and computers and TVs from places like Best Buy, where the employee who advises the buyer is somewhere between ignorant to outright lying. Cars aren't quite that bad, but the truth is most of this stuff is so easy to find on the Internet that knowing it off the top of one's head isn't very important anymore.

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WutzTehPoint@reddit

People still buy Jeeps. 'nough said.

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13Vex@reddit

My favorite experience is when we got a hugely massive piece of shit used Silverado that a salesman sold to some dude who flew in out of state to pick it up (idk who would do that). Once it was sold, we had to quote whatever was wrong with it and fix it before the customer was supposed to get it. Not usually an issue, free brakes usually. Problem was, this truck needed 20 hours of work. Brakes were completely shot, every caliper was seized, the main bumper connector was burnt up, one of the mirrors wouldn’t stop unfolding… the works. I’m working on it with my mentor and a salesman comes in and says “customer is here, is this almost ready?” as I’m neck deep in splicing wires. “It’s not gonna be ready until tomorrow. We had to get the customer a fucking hotel.

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lowstrife@reddit

(idk who would do that)

You can do that, but you need to be really careful and do your homework. And you can't be "gambling" on used piles, you gotta be buying pretty late model stuff and treating it more or less like a commodity.

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13Vex@reddit

I was in NY. This dude came from Kansas wanting a used, overpriced 7 year old truck from the rust belt of all places. Dudes got lead in his pipes for sure.

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I thought you could get the new Camry as a hybrid AWD though?

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Fit_Equivalent3610@reddit

The first model year for the XV80 is 2025, it's available now because model years always start partway through the calendar year.

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KingMe091@reddit

Limited special editions always are marked up, but maybe not to that degree. It's not like it's a base model corolla going for that much.

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captainsaveasaab@reddit

I’d argue both are awful.

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Bradymyhero@reddit

Fact is that car salespeople are greaseballs.

I drive a car from a "luxury" brand and its leaking coolant. Called the dealer, service dept closed on Sunday. Spoke with Sales mgr instead hoping he could at least help arrange a loaner. Dude had zero sympathy, spoke in an annoyed and aggressive tone as if I was at fault here, and hung up

These guys are bottom feeders of society, one of the least-respected professions for a reason

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Daegoba@reddit

I am forever a HotRodder, so anytime I needed a temp job I’d go sell cars. I loved it. It was my personal joy to put someone in a car they always wanted, or at the very least a car that they needed and were happy with.

Welp,

I’m in between jobs, and a buddy of mine hooks me up at this Dodge dealership. It was a good time to sell. The Chrysler 300 was booming, and the SRT Neon was flying off the lots due to gas prices. The place was right off the interstate, and the owner had both the lots on either side of us, so I could pretty much put anybody in anything. They had just hired this older Boomer dude to oversee sales. He was from New York, and since we were in NC? Couldn’t get him near the customers. That Yankee accent would turn off a Tarheel quicker than a light switch. I liked him well enough, but typical slick-talking hustler who didn’t care about anything but money.

So one day this old couple comes in with their Mercury Grand Marquis. Full size V8 with all the bells and whistles. Car wasn’t 5 years old and had like 40K miles on it. Old country couple that pushed it to the grocery store and church. It was a gold mine for me, as they came in (you guessed it) wanting a new 300, and the Merc I could flip in less than a week for a months pay. I show em every 300 on the lot, but they weren’t ready to spend that much. They give me a dollar amount, and I show them the Stratus/Sebring. This is where it starts to go down hill.

I’m not happy about stepping them down in car. I want to put them in something full size and used that’s at least comparable to what they wanted, but Yankee Boomer is adamant that I have to sell something new. This pisses me off, as my commission is higher on used cars, but he’s throttling me on new so we can hit our numbers with corporate. Ok, whatever-I roll with it. Country folks love the Sebring (lol) so we get down to the negotiations. They want $3K for the Grand Marq. I’m excited as shit because that’s a steal for us, and I can move that thing in a day or two for a healthy profit. Yankee Boomer squashes it. Says we can only give them $1,500. I flip my shit. We argue, and it gets ugly. He tells me to go back and make the offer or I’m on the street. I go and pitch it, and of course Country man gets irate, which I completely understand. I go back to Yankee Boomer and he says “Go back to them and say these words exactly: ‘if I can show you-don’t say give-if I can show you $3K for the Merc, do we have a deal?’ “. I look at him like he has two heads, but I do it. They of course agree, and I take them to finance to get the paperwork started while I go get the car through detail.

I come back, and they’re happy, my sales manager is happy, I think all is good. But something doesn’t feel right. I go in finance and check the paperwork, and sure as shit, Yankee Boomer “showed” them $3K for their trade, but raised the price of the Sebring by an additional $1,500 with bullshit fees and charges that I KNEW weren’t required. He just laughed and smiled when I confronted him about it and said that it’s all part of the game, and lectured me about how I need to get with it or some shit.

I quit and never sold another car at a dealership. I’m still mad about it, but more so hurt that he took advantage of every single one of us in the situation and didn’t bat an eye of guilt about it. Tom, if you’re out there, I hope you step on a lego in the dark.

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notoriousjb87@reddit

Work for a used car dealership. Sales know nothing about cars..(I've been in operations for about 8 years and been in and out of so many cars, I know them inside and out) and the things they bug and ask me about are astounding. Service cuts costs on cars they sell just to get them out the door, trans may be shuddering and about to go but they would rather the sale and come back on a warranty (most times dealers own a part of the warranty companies). The whole industry is a fucking joke...I've been trying so hard to get out but the market is garb.

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wilsonway1955@reddit

Ever since the pandemic car parts have at least tripled in cost.Yes,the pandemic dramatically effected the supply chain.But,it is almost 2025.You can get parts.Lower the prices!

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Top-class-0246@reddit

Sitting the customer area one morning.

A manager came out his office in his jacket and purple socks telling the service advisors. Today's a good day. Sell. Sell. Sell. It's all about the bottom line.

Functional and/or OEM-replacing upgrades (lift, rims, etc) are fine, at least those are easy to spot and it's easy to accept as a buyer. What's infuriating is when dealers add on to the vehicle BS upsell crap to most/all of their vehicles. Stuff like rust/undercarriage protection (here in SF Bay), non-PPF-based paint protection, fabric protection, security/monitoring devices, etc.

It's annoying they do it at all, considering the inflated price, but if/when they pull the "it's mandatory/ not-removable" crap, it's time to go to another dealer.

In my area, Toyota/Dodge dealers are the worst about this. My wife bought a Venza and Napa Toyota had added a $1500 of bullshit. None of it was included in the listing on their site. We walked and she was out of a car for 2 weeks bc she'd sold hers the day before picking up that one. We weren't going to reward dickish behavior with a sale. They eventually called us back and offered the next one they got, before the shit got added on.

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RuinedGrave@reddit

Yeah, that kind of stuff is snake oil. What I’m referring to is stuff with actual tangible value. I’ve had people downvote me when things Toyota adds like first aid kits, cargo tray, etc. aren’t taken off by the dealer because of it being part of the build.

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Sharperc13@reddit

Work in finance so very closely linked to both dealers and customers. There's a lot of expectation in a vehicle sale, which sometimes goes too far. Someone buying a 9 year old 100k miles motor expecting a new car experience. Trying to return for faults 9 months down the line after covering 20,000 miles. I can see the frustration on some of those. (Some.)

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AMCGrandWagoneer@reddit

I work in a dealership (The car company rhymes with “Texas”) and the dealers are among the GREEDIEST human beings ever. They hide keys from one another so they themselves can make a sale to get commissions and treat other people in the back rooms like trash sometimes and put on a fake smile.

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RollingPanda21@reddit

Sales person here. Things that are not under my control.

Sales prices. We don't set them, sales managers do.

Interest rates. We don't control them, the banks do. Some dealerships and lenders have agreements that allow them (F&I departments) to "fluff" the rate by a couple of points. It's important to know what your real buy rate is. Always ask.

Warranties. Most of us don't pitch them to make money. Most dealerships only give sales people a flat rate of $25-$50 for each product sold. We pitch them so that if 6 months down the road, you have some expensive repair, you aren't paying out of pocket for the entire repair. We want you to be happy with your purchase for years. We thrive on referrals. For example, a water pump on some vehicles may cost $300, but a water pump on a Ford Explorer can cost up to $1,700. That being said, stop buying the bullshit they force us to pitch (ex. Paint protection, interior protection, window and key replacement, roadside assistance, etc.) I hate pitching these products, personally I feel they have little to no real value, and often tell my customers that, if they're trying to achieve the lowest possible payment.

Calls, texts, and emails. Most dealership websites don't force you to input your information to see sales prices. If you put in your phone number or email, YOU are essentially asking the dealership to have someone reach out to you. If you don't want them to keep calling, ANSWER the phone and tell them you ARE NOT in the market, and they will stop calling, texting, and emailing. Usually, the salesperson will say something along the lines of "okay, no worries. If anything changes in the future and you decide it's time to make a purchase, we'd love to help you in anyway we can, just give us a call and we'll be here for you, thank you and have a great day" Most of us are required to keep calling, texting, or emailing until we get a NO. We get it. It's annoying, and it feels like harassment after a while.

Lastly, this one is on your salesperson. MAKE SURE THAT ANYTHING A SALESPERSON OFFERS OR PROMISES YOU IS IN WRITING! Usually, this is referred to as a "We Owe," which ensures that the dealership has to follow thru with anything that is promised. Ex. "We owe: second key, $XXX"

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Jbar116@reddit

Im sure this will get lost in new - I’m no longer a car salesman (thank fuck - it’s a miserable existence) but I worked at a CDJR store back in 2017-2018. We were a volume dealer, and times were different back then. The overwhelming majority of new car deals were sold at a loss, because the higher ups would make their profit on kickbacks from the manufacturer and back end financing. As a salesman, we got $100 “mini’s” for selling a car if it was sold as a loss.

The overwhelming majority of people I talked to are HORRIBLE with money. I had one person come in with a 2017 Jeep Renegade that she had bought maybe 6 months before? She HATED the car but couldn’t tell us why. What did she do? She bought a 2018 renegade in a different color. Her credit score was abysmal, and she was signing papers on the EXACT same car - trim level and everything, and toting about $15k in negative equity at a 22% interest rate. I’m talking paying 700+ on a car that’s not even a great car. Due to all the rebates and what not, we were taking a loss on it so I was only going to make $100. I was basically BEGGING her not to sign, but at the end of the day she was a grown woman and she had her mind set.

I made a couple of fat rips off of people in my tenure there - and I felt bad about every single one of them but at the end of the day I had to pay rent and bills. I didn’t last much longer after that. I’m okay with the salesman getting some commission - I mean they gotta make money - but if you want to make any decent money in car sales you have to be ruthless - and this is coming from a guy who buys/fixes/flips motorcycles for a profit -

I’ll never go back.

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TheAnon13@reddit

This thread just confirmed to me how bad dealers are. Can’t wait for the day we get a direct to consumer model or at the very least no markup policy in the US that other countries seem to have. You got people in here talking about customers lowballing yet have nothing to say about their exorbitant markup fees

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Combat_Wombat23@reddit

I don’t agree with the leveraged information. It’s the age of technology. You and me have the same internet. You can google invoice cost for most cars, you can look up just about anything you want regarding any given vehicle. You can get your own financing, or just say no if the price doesn’t make sense to you. No one is “bending you over” unless you let yourself be.

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Combat_Wombat23@reddit

Late to the party. My last dealership sold at sticker, had management that would build actual relationships with customers, did a shitload of service work to the point we broke even or lost money on a fair bit of our inventory. Happy customers, some even became friends.

The dealer I’m at now, same GM from before, but slave to Lithia corporate, all the new cars have markups, management only gets involved when it’s already gone south and that just agitates the client more, service department is fucking worthless, lazy techs, lazy advisors, one of the service advisors complains loudly constantly and the waiters sit right behind her. Previous management was actively stealing money and screwing customers and we inherited that, even with an entirely new staff.

Overall I’m throwing in the towel soon. Had a perfect storm so to speak at my first dealership sold but I see this is how it typically is.

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rkn1@reddit

Car buying process in US needs to change from the private dealer setup. I like the Tesla method of buying it online for a set price. It’s like that in some countries where the manufacturer sets the MSRP for a car and trim level and it’s the same wherever you go in a city. The dealer doesn’t sell at their own price. Makes it easier buying experience. Why do I have to sit over an hour at each dealer to get an OTD quote? Not efficient or consumer friendly.

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Important-Quail-9732@reddit

True but there are downsides to that as well. It puts the manufacturer in charge of services and repairs, less physical locations, and less jobs(dealerships employ 2 million people in the US)

Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit

People think they have amazing haggling skills and get mad when thousands can't just disappear from the car's price.

The truth is most dealerships are moving away from the haggling model and a lot of younger buyers don't want to deal with it, they just pay whatever the sticker price is.

literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Really, that's literally the dumbest thing you've ever heard? Ok, buddy. People wanting to waste their entire day at the dealership negotiating are dumber if you ask me.

And financing terms and extra products don't count as "haggling" if you ask me. A savvy buyer already has their financing set up or knows what terms they'll be able to get. And you can easily just decline all the bullshit additional packages. I'm talking about the guys who will sit there and go back and forth wanting $2k off "just because" and spend 8 hours hemming and hawing to try and save a penny.

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King_in_a_castle_84@reddit

People wanting to waste their entire day at the dealership negotiating over $500 are far dumber if you ask me.

withsexyresults@reddit

Nah shit they attach to the car like aftermarket alarms. When dealers add 5-10k mark ups, it does make sense to haggle and get that down

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Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit

I've bought half a dozen new cars and not once seen a dealer add aftermarket shit like alarms. Does anyone actually still do that? Reminds me of that scene in Fargo where the dude is trying to sell that undercoating bullshit. I feel like that's kind of a bygone era.

As for the markups on popular models, I've never seen anyone successfully haggle one of those down. Why would they when some other chump with more money than sense will gladly pay the markup.

I've never financed a car.

You're the one making the claim that a few hundred isn't worth the time wasted, but seem to be unwilling to back that claim.

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Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit

Sorry, you're right. My bad. I hope we can still be friends :)

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Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit

I apologize, my mama said I ain't too smart I think I've got that forest Gump disease

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Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit

Ok dude, if you're broke as fuck and have to haggle over $200 on a 15 year old used Civic so you can make rent next month I'll give you a pass. I'm talking about people making actual big boy purchases.

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limitless__@reddit

I feel like this is a very recent, post-covid perspective. Pre-covid a car that was listed for MSRP of 40k would end up being closer to 35k. It was often invoice plus $200 or in many, many cases way below invoice due to manufacturer rebates for the dealer. Used cars were even worse. I bought a one-year old car in 2011 that was 44k new, 26k out the door. It was an entirely different market back then.

I think the issue is lots of sales guys are too young to remember how car sales were for literally decades. Now the market has completely changed they are dumbfounded that a guy who last bought a car 10 years ago expects BIG discounts.

I think the biggest failing for dealerships right now is that if they are no-haggle dealerships they need to advertise the SHIT out of that. None of this wishy-washy shit, willing to drop $200 etc. They need to list their vehicles like carmax and carvana do. I bought a car for my son last year and the dealership pretended they were "no haggle". They had a Mazda 3 listed at $12,500 and I got it for 12k out the door including 6% sales tax. If you're going to be "no haggle" actually be that way, don't use it as a sales tactic.

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PabloIceCreamBar@reddit

The issue with no haggle for new cars is there are still stores that will haggle.

For used, a lot of the larger dealer groups are moving to 100% No haggle since most units are unique.

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Juicyjackson@reddit

Only a couple hundred bucks is quite a lot of money...

Who wouldn't want to save a couple hundred bucks?

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Fact0ry0fSadness@reddit

When you're talking a purchase of $40k that will likely be financed over 4-5 years it's inconsequential, like trying to haggle for pennies off your Starbucks coffee.

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liebereddit@reddit

A $300 loan at 6% interest for 5 years would result in a total repayment of $390. sure, it's a small fraction of the whole, but that's real money you don't have and seems to be worth the time. You don't need to be broke as fuck to not want to give away ~$400

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SwiftCEO@reddit

I partially agree with what you’re saying. It’s true that most consumers don’t want to haggle anymore and the industry seems to be moving away from that. I still think you can negotiate a few thousand dollars off most car models though.

When I got my Mazda, I shopped around for a bit. I knew what I wanted. I called multiple dealers and was honest about what I was doing. I got offered anywhere between $500 to $3.5k off. I ended up going with a local dealership that met me in the middle at $2.5k off. No added fees or BS. I was in and out in less than an hour.

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cood101@reddit

Had a customer yesterday who brought his vehicle in for electrical issues. His seat controls were not working. He claimed it was just a fuse issue. It was not just a fuse issue.

He then got exasperated about the fact that it took longer than an hour, and that the techs were attempting to trace down wiring to fix the issue. He said "I don't think they know what they are doing" to my co-worker's face.

As someone who has been a tech for 10ish years on and off, I wanted to pull out a wiring diagram of a 1967 Chevy's electrical system. Tell him to understand it. Then hand him a modern electrical diagram for his 3 year old car, and tell me how easy it should be to find electrical issues.

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Stock-Designer9526@reddit

I don't know if this is true for a lot of other dealerships but at least for mine there were about 2 or 3 people (if that) per department that were the backbone of the establishment. They did a majority of the work themselves.

Most customers are fine, the entitled ones or the ones who think they know more than we do are the problem. I'd rather deal with an uneducated customer than a know-it-all. Or people who people thought they could scam free services or parts out of us.

I did feel bad for customers on days we had to close walk ins because we were busy, but not for the ones that made it our problem. It's not the service department's fault that you didn't plan ahead. I'm sorry we can't change your oil three hours before your road trip, there were and still are many other options.

What bothered me the most was people not knowing anything about their cars. I still don't understand how you could spend sometimes tens of thousands of dollars on something and not take a few moments to research anything about it and then come in upset about a feature of the car (or cars in general) that should be common knowledge. I feel like anyone who buys a new car should at least leaf through the quick guide in the manual in the glove box. Maybe I'm just car autistic

That being said, I loved when the little old ladies came in to fix a setting they accidentally changed or to reset the clock. Or when I could teach customers the little tricks like resetting the windows and lift gate.

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BudFox_LA@reddit

I love this. Love it. Feels like I could have written this. Morons everywhere, man. Morons everywhere.

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BudFox_LA@reddit

I had a mk6, six speed, apr stage 1, plaid seats, loved that car to death but was a bit of a lemon

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PNW_tw@reddit

Buy your own (good) scan tool.

Use independent shops only.

I have a number of cars. None of them will ever see a shop besides mine or one of two trusted independent shops.

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meh-meh_@reddit

Here’s the angle I see: a consumer doesn’t have to go to a dealer to buy a car, but they do because it’s easy. It’s easy, because the dealer is providing a service to the customer. You want a car with financing? Here it is, drive it home. Need service? Okay we got it. Why is it so hard to understand that these services are not free. Think of how many people (including me business owners) need to be paid to deliver these services and products. Want to spend less? Don’t go in.

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TheAnon13@reddit

No the angle is that consumers are forced to go to a dealership because they have no other options as the auto industry lobbies our government insane to prevent or discourage direct manufacturer sales.

Shit gets missed, cars don’t act up doing the inspection process, and, at least with franchise dealers, I would say a solid 95% of cars that fail for various reasons after purchase, surprise us just as much as it surprises you. I generally spot check used cars, and will out 2/3 miles on a car some months driving to auction and what not with nary an issue, but there has been times where we sell it, and 200 miles later something blows up on it.

We sometimes have as much information as you do. Auto check and carfax are often erroneous, missing information, receiving information after the fact (I have seen as late as 5 years after an incident it is reported to either) there is exactly a 0 percent chance we manipulate an auto check or carfax. Hell - If we want to fix a mistake on mileage that WE made, we generally need three years worth of service records in order to do so.

Unless you go to a BHPH, we don’t set interest rates / we would not purposely show you a hire interest rate because you are less likely to buy if that’s the case. SOME banks and captive finance companies give us a 2 point spread. Also, what we own a car for has nothing to do with what it’s worth retail. I have had plenty of used cars I lose money on in order to make a deal. Most dealers rely on volume, service, and back end profits in order to make profits.

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joeshmoethe2nd@reddit

I hate how everyone thinks their entitled to the world, they think they deserve everything discounted, free, or under warranty even though they broke it. And because they broke it, or the manufacturer made a bad product, its not our fault it failed or that you broke it, so dont take it out on us, we just fix your shit. Also, shit doesnt get fixed instantly, and im not the warehouse/shipper, i cant just take your stuff from michiganor wherever and drive nonstop to your location so its there as fast as possible (which still would often tske multiple days anyways. So its not our fault it takes days, weeks, months to get parts, we're not the 1 creating or shipping the parts so dont take it out on us.

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