Do Albanians get surprised when they learn they are so disliked in Greece?
Posted by Glum_Cobbler1359@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 116 comments
First of all, I don’t mean to offended anyone. I’m not from the Balkans, but I’m very curious about the region in general, and find all Balkan countries interesting.
With that being said, I know a LOT of Albanians in Italy. Many of them, travel to Greece during the summer. In my experience, Albanians seem to have a very positive view of Greece.
Sure, there are nationalistic Albanians who hate Greece, but those seem to be a chronically online minority. The opposite seems not to be true, most Greeks seem to really dislike Albanians.
I know some Albanians who got really confused and surprised about it, and they were not aware about it at all.
Aquila_2020@reddit
We don't really dislike Albanians. At least there isn't a concrete opinion on them because, well, they aren't a monolith.
The initial bad opinion in the 90s was because, unfortunately, when the borders opened, the albanian prisons also opened, thus creating a negative reputation
But, there are also stories of hardworking Albanians and how similar they are to the idea of the "Greek family man"
So, overall, it is mixed but neutral. It's only recent developments that have soured relations again
Recent developments: Rama's visits where he says that North Epirote is a "dead term" even though the Greek Minority has officially been recognized, human rights violations, and voter suppression in Himara (North Epirus), the chronically online weirdos who claim that "everything is Albanian and Greeks have conspired against us" and apologists for the pro-nazi Cham Këshilla
AllMightAb@reddit
Northern Epirus is a irredenist term historically used by Greeks to claim the land in Southern Albania for Greece. It has nothing to do with the Greek minority. When Rama said North Epirus is a dead term, he means Greece should finally give up their expansionist policies towards Albania.
Greek minority has always been recognized, during the current census the only population area that increased like 200% in Albania are the Greek Minority areas. No one is suppressing anyone with votes and otherwise. The problem with you people is that you dont live in reality, even with the increase Greeks make up around 2% of the population (about 20k people) of Albania. Himara is not a Greek majority municipality and neither are the other major cities in Southern Albania.
Aquila_2020@reddit
Sorry, but no, they literally self identify as that and that's why the offense especially given that the electoral committee refused to renew the voting cards
You're Quoting "censuses" where 10-15% "refuse to state ethnicity" the censuses conducted by the albanian state are the definition of a bad census
Himara hasn't been recognized by the albanian state as Greek municipality, despite its significant North Epirote population (see the celebrations of Beleris election), because hoxha only wanted to recognize less strategically valuable regions and then proceeded to gerrymandered by shifting villages from Greek to albanian municipalities whenever new districts were drawn a practice still used to this day
AllMightAb@reddit
What do you mean self-identify? They are Greeks, recognized by as such by the Albanian state. Northern Epirus is a geographical term used by irredenist Greeks, you want Albania to recognize a Greek irredenist term for apart of its territory? Not gonna happen.
The Albanian census this time around was done accordingly and recognized as such by the E.U and even U.S. You are looking at official government data and disputing it because it does not show what YOU want it to show. Fact of the matter is Greeks are 2% of the population and no amount of claiming some absurd number of 200k-300k supposedly being in Albania is going to change that.
Jesus, if Albania had actually 200k-300k Greeks you wouldn't be able to visit Southern Albania without seeing a Greek flag and their minority movement politically would be a force to be reckoned with. But no, the only place where Greek minority parties win are the places where they are already recognized as a minority.
You see this is the problem with Greeks like you. Everything is a conspiracy to undermine the Greeks, you dispute offical gov data and the reality because it doesn't fit your narrative. nooo there"s 300k Greeks in Albania Korça is majority Greek so is Gjirokaster noooo.
What you are saying is straight up nationalist delusions and i dont see our relation improving anytime soon with people like you.
Aquila_2020@reddit
They literally call themselves North Epirote. My family and friends from there literally call themselves that.
The fact that the authoritarian hoxha regime didn't recognize that himara and agioi saranta had some Greek population is a conspiracy??
I'm not talking about korca or gijrokaster. I'm talking about himara, saranda, dervicani because I literally have family and friends from there.
You are ignoring that North Epirotes do a lot of back and forth between Greece and Albania and the census is only a snap picture which again always has some irregularities in Albania due to corruption. And I never said 300k I said 100 to 200k total
For instance, some of my family from North Epirus studies in Greece, so they weren't counted. We have special programs for the diaspora, like affirmative action. So no, it's not a conspiracy theory, there are real problems with the data.
Also, if your government can be trusted with data, how come the 2011 census had 10-15% as "not stating" 🤔🤔🤔
So how come Beleris won in a place where "there are no greeks" and his supporters there raised Greek flags. Make it make sense bruh
The rest is just weird apologia for a narco states government. Because that's what it is: a place with no rule of law, without social security, where the mafia launders money in the "albanian riviera" and kicks people, Greek AND Albanian, out of their homes. You ever question where all the money came from, when Albania is dead last in productivity in the balkans?
Well, because it would require you to actually change your system instead of being complacent, but you've been convinced that "we're out to get you" when the ones out to get you are your narco government. First they came for the Greeks, then maybe for the Romani and then they'll come for you, and failing to stand up now will ensure you'll fail to stand up for yourself
That's all folks
Hope one you'll change your mind Take care
windio2@reddit
Εισαι ωραιος μπρο
NoDrummer6@reddit
He completely made up census numbers lmao.
Miserable_Sense6950@reddit
Only 13,000 people in the census stated they did not want to answer their ethnicity. For 130,000 people the data was taken from administrative sources. These were people who could not be asked in person.
Serbia's census in 2022 had 500k people with undeclared or unknown ethnicity for the same reason. Bulgaria also had 500k down for the same reason. Romania had 2.5 million. Macedonia also had a lot.
The census was done according to the Council of Europe standards and was observed by them. You are inflating Greek numbers by 4-8 times when there's nothing suggesting that.
In the 2011 census the data being taken from administrative sources were mostly from Albanian areas. There's nothing suggesting that the ethnicity of people taken from administrative sources are different in proportion to the ones that gave answers.
Why should permanent residents of Greece register for the Albanian census? Greeks were probably overestimated for this reason. For example in Dropull there were 3 births and 74 deaths in 2022, which is a beith rate of 0.36 using the census numbers. But apparently it's population increased by 135%, the most of any municipality in Albania. It's Greeks that are permanent residents of Greece registering for the census.
holyrs90@reddit
Bro you know that he was a candidate for the opposition, not some greek party, and most of his votes where Albanians right?
Also his opponent also came from greek minority?
Wtf are u talking about, and this dude is also in jail for abusing power , like srsly, u know nothing about Albanian politics, everyone here buys votes , and does corruption, ah yes Beleri the saviour, lol pathetic shit.
-MrAnderson@reddit
Even with the domestic media's focus on Rama's comment on Northern Epirus (as something provocative), most Greeks don't view this or any other area of Albania as Greek land to be freed or something.
At worst some nationalists believe there is a big Greek minority population on Northern Epirus. Most Greeks just know there is a small recognized minority, and that's about it.
I found Rama's comment totally reasonable. And although Albanians seem to dislike him, he is one of the few Balkan leaders committed to lead his country towards the EU, which works best for the interest of all the countries in the area.
albo_kapedani@reddit
As someone from Himara, I absolutely need to challenge this.
North Epirus idea that all that area is greek and belongs to Greece or greeks should be a dead term. As should be that South Epirus is Albanian. The whole of Epirus has been inhabited by both. Simple.
There's been absolutely no human rights violentions in Albania regarding minority rights. Unlike anyone in the Balkans, ethnic minorities are respected. Just check how many greek and sllavomacedonians have held political and economic power. Greeks in Albania are not abused and humiliated as Albanians are in Greece. Just go to the central parts of Tirana or Athens and see which clubs or restaurants have music from the other country playing.
There's been no voter suppression in Himara, at least. The electoral code is clear. You need an up-to-date ID. Just because the political parties, particularly the OMONIA group, failed to inform their voters about such important information that's not voter suppression.
Albania has a million and one problems but none are the ones you've listed.
Aquila_2020@reddit
Already answered in other comment
The code was changed last minute this year a month or less before the election for the renewal of the ID and required longer waiting time The definition of voter suppression
Flimsy_Snow5374@reddit
Not true. The code was always the same. What changed is the special exemption from the government to allow the voting with expired ID. They knew that most migrants were likely to vote against the gov, so they didn't approve the exemption. So politicians playing politics and water is still wet.
Aquila_2020@reddit
Lol so it did change
Lol and is it a coincidence that among albanian migrants a lot of them are of the Greek community 🤔🤔🤔
Not only that but the platforms changed too so double bureaucracy double stalling and on short notice
https://www.himara.gr/epikairotita/25946-eos-tis-26-iouliou-oi-aitiseis-gia-alvanika-diavatiria-kai-taftotites-meso-tis-aleat
If you actually care about democracy and human rights in Albania, you should be worried. Because the narco state and the money laundering mafia owned hotels are coming for himara now... but they'll come for everyone else too. You're not safe from tyranny until even the Greeks and other minorities are
Flimsy_Snow5374@reddit
Can you read? You said the code changed and the code didn't change.
Also not true. There are more migrants in Italy and central EU than in Greece. That decision applies to all of them. The gov thinks most migrants will vote against them so they didn't approve the exemption. Which they are legally allowed to do. If the migrants cared enough for the vote they would have renewed their ID cards in due time like all the ppl living here do.
As for the rest of your comment it is funny to me seeing a Greek talk about money laundering and human rights, like you are not a corrupt, mafia owned state yourself. Every seen yourself in the mirror... 😂😂
Aquila_2020@reddit
But the laws on deadline and platform did, so let's not play with words you know what I meant
You changed the platform mid July after changing the exemption
Have you seen reports on democracy and corruption cause we are wayyyy above you and most balkans by every metric. And no, unlike you, we are not literally mafia owned so shush the facts are on our side 🤫
Flimsy_Snow5374@reddit
Where are you getting all this from? Because it is so misinformed.
EAlbania has been used to renew ID since May 2020, the elections were in April 2021. A full year to renew the documents for anyone who cared to do so and the process is easier to do now, compared to before. Truth is they didn't care about it until they got paid to vote and given free travel back to Albania.
Oh yeah we have plenty of problems. But at least we recognize we have them and try to fix them, unlike you who deny them. While your mafia is so entrenched it is the gov and you can't even recognize it.
Aquila_2020@reddit
But the laws on deadline and platform did, so let's not play with words
You changed the platform mid July after changing the exemption
Have you seen reports on democracy and corruption cause we are wayyyy above you and most balkans by every metric. And no, unlike you, we are not literally mafia owned so shush the facts are on our side 🤫
albo_kapedani@reddit
No, it hasn't. It has been like that forever. It has been part of the electoral code of the Albanian constitution since 1997, and the code was updated when ID cards were brought in.
Aquila_2020@reddit
Blatant lie, there were changes on July 5th with a deadline until July 26th through aleat, and there were problems for North Epirotes in registering even on the e Albania platform From August 1st it was changed to identitek which means not enough time for a LOT of people.
It's a blatant attempt to silence the opposition and it's shameful that you're defending it
From a local newspaper
https://www.himara.gr/epikairotita/25946-eos-tis-26-iouliou-oi-aitiseis-gia-alvanika-diavatiria-kai-taftotites-meso-tis-aleat
Also look at Beleris statement on this
I've had enough of you uck wannabes
Good day
albo_kapedani@reddit
These are two different things. The electral code is set by the Constitution of the Republic of Albania and the deadline for applying for ID documents set by the Ministry of Internal Affairs and The Council of Ministers. Two different things.
You can have enough of anything that doesn't change the fact. You have had deputy prime ministers, ministers, military personnel, judges, oligarchs, and millionaires from the greek minority. There's zero, and I say zero human rights issues. Do the same with Albanians in Greece. Can you?!
And you can't tell me, a Himarjot about Himara. Simply because you watch the news and read papers. I've had enough of ignorant Greek and Albanian ultranationalists that tell us Himarjots about Himara, our history, and our actuary.
Aquila_2020@reddit
Same result: voter suppression and electoral irregularities, as always in Albania
The albanian state disputes these individuals' greekness to appeal to the ultranationalists
The US literally had Barrack Obama as president, and the African Americans still face issues. This doesn't erase the systemic racism of the albanian state
Yes, millionaires, celebrities etc. You often forget that in the interwar period the chams even had their own political party and full voting rights. Also, Albanians who come here, stay here, and many including my albanian friends don't even want to go back on holidays, meaning their treatment is literally better here than in Albania. He have better Healthcare, more opportunities for them, they've built businesses and raised families. Meanwhile Albania is a cesspool of corruption and narco state with the lowest productivity in the balkans that kicks out its own people for the sake of its mafia.
So yeah even the average Albanian is better off in Greece than in Albania
Yeah but another Himariot's ie my family and friends can.
Instead of realizing how much of a tragedy this is for democracy in Albania you sit here and defend a narco state
Get lost you hypocrite
skadarski@reddit
Yeah in reality North Epirus and the Cham case are basically dead. North Epirus was the most recent one to go. Greeks have always advanced the number of 200k Greeks in Albania, which never was the case (they counted all Orthodox Albanians as Greek). But most left in the 90s for Greece, and those who stayed got their Greek citizenship and pensions, some build hotels in the Riviera. So no, there is no way Greeks in Albania are more oppressed than say Albanians in Serbia or Greeks in Turkey. Every time there has been an incident these last 20 years it is either an isolated case of retards on both sides (death of Aristotelis Goumas, Konstantinos Katsifas shooting incident) or Greece getting negotiating bargains for Albania's EU accession. About the Cham case, most Albanians would like to see the removal of the war law against Albania in Greece. No one think we'll "get Chameria back", it has as much chances as Greece getting back Vorio Epiri, which is 0. But Nazi collaborators or not, the Chams were brutally expelled, their testimonies are terrifying. Don't forget that during the 1923 population exchange with Turkey, Greece called the Muslim Albanian Chams as Turks and expelled half of them to Turkey. The rest were expelled in 1944. And Enver Hoxha treated the refugees like shit.
Aquila_2020@reddit
With all due respect my friend
Thing is the remaining Greeks that actually live there do self identify as North Epirote and even those in Greece still have albanian passports
So it is highly offensive to tell them that they are "dead term" especially when they have rights: to property which is being taken by mafia to build hotels, to education and to free elections which was denied in himara because the committee this time refused to renew their voting cards (unlike past elections)
National self ID in the balkans has always been more complicated but rn North Epirotes are between 100 to 200k according to most sources (the 2011 and other Albanian census with 10-15% "non stating ethnicity" was a boycott from minority groups, remember)
Whatever the number it's higher than the 18 to 25k that the chams ever were and the North Epirotes never committed high treason or collaborationism, unlike the chams
The bad treatment of North Epirotes is completely unjustified
See that's a big problem and btw as you point out these people were even persecuted by albanian communists for crimes on both sides of the border. The reason they got "expelled" is because they didn't stay to be tried and were tried in absentia for the ethnic cleansing in Paramythia and other villages
Not even close to half, and btw back then they swlf identified as muslim first, not albanian hence some mix ups. Also if Greece didn't want them we wouldn't have agreed to keep them and we wouldn't have allowed them to vote or FOUND THEIR OWN PARTY ffs
Yet they still collaborated first with Mussolini in the interwar period then with the nazis
So no, if anything, we've been too kind to a group of people who refused to stand trial and still got jail time in ALBANIA
skadarski@reddit
Property? Everyone is concerned about property rights in Albania. Claiming that mafia is stealing Greek land because we hate Greeks is bullshit. Education? It is done in Greek. Free elections? You mean about Fredi Beleri? That guy is a semi-retard who got caught stealing votes. He speaks Greek with an Albanian accent and Albanian with a Greek accent. About "high treason" I don't remember Chams declaring an Autonomous Republic. I don't remember Chams killing Albanian soldiers in their sleep and walking away scot free, getting arrested for stealing votes and blaming Albania for it, and be rewarded with a nice MEP spot.
There were never more than 100k Greeks in Albania, and that is a stretch. 50k in the 1989 census, 23k in 2023. There are barely 200k people in most of South Albania nowadays, all ethnicities included. They left for Greece for economic reasons. It is very well known that the official Greek figures for the Greek minority in Albania included Aromanians and Albanian Orthodox people. Not counting Albanians who declared themselves Greek to get a Greek passport.
About the national ID part, should we start claiming half of the Peloponnese and Attica because it has so many Arvanites? Athens was an Albanian-majority city before 1821. Should we claim Athens as well?
You must be seriously mentally challenged to believe there is a cabal against Greeks in Albania, or that they are being heavily oppressed or anything like that. Greece has bullied Albania for 30 years on the basis of bullshit claims like this. Go to Himara or Dropull and you will see your badly oppressed Greeks.
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Depends.
Older generation meaning 50+ will definitely a huge chunk hold xenophobic views.
Mid 30’s and 40’s are neutral to positive (some can he negative)
Younger generation, almost all of us had an albanian classmate/acquaintance/coworker. My ex is albanian, some of my good friends are albanians, i had classmates whom are Albanians. There is a joke amonst the younger greeks that we all have “our” albanian but of course this doesn’t mean that there is no xenophobia amongst the youngsters.
It is hilarious to me to dislike someone due to their ethnic background, have i disliked someone who is albanian? Yeah but because they were a shit person not because they are albanian
CypriotGreek@reddit
Seeing how much you defend Albanians here, I think you should get back with your ex!
VirnaDrakou@reddit
He will always be in my heart as my first boyfriend but we are not compatible. We are still in touch though!
PONT05@reddit
oh how cute, he found a girl that resembles his ex greek karaboga /s
nik4dam5@reddit
Found the xenophobic.
a_bright_knight@reddit
hopefully some sense of humor also lands on your radar
nik4dam5@reddit
What's so humorous about what he said?
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Because it's an ex. They are praising where they are from. It's a relationship joke not a racial joke. It could have worked if they were saying good words for a baker, and the ex owned a bakery
VirnaDrakou@reddit
It was a lighthearted joke! Dont worry pal
CrystaSera@reddit
They share a border, that really isnt unusual in these parts
ARedDragon12@reddit
I have never met an Albanian who has liked Greece, except those who have lived there. It always ends up as a heater argument, where the Albanian starts claiming history that doesn't belong to them. Ever more so, Albanians get pissed off when I tell them I am of Souliot descent, to which they start calling "an Albanian in denial" to which I return with a broadside of insults as they my insult my Greekness. Reminding them, that my Souliot ancestors used to annihilate their Turkalbanian ancestors before, and during the Greek Revolution, because they always were the lackeys of the Turks. I have physically gotten involved twice in these arguments. One Albanian even attacked me with a broken beer bottle, and let's just say it didn't end up well for him. In short, Albanians usually stay clear of me, and I am no friend of Albanians.
warbanditGR@reddit
True 100% Balkan moment. A guy with Albanian ancestry and bearing greek flair, is arguing with other Albanians! Only in Balkans you will meet something like this!
jet12355@reddit
Tbh he is probably barely of Albanian ancestry, it’s like those Turks who say they’re Albanian because their great grandfather was albanian or something.
determine96@reddit
We have a saying in Bulgaria "Only one black ninja can defeat another black ninja"
/S
ARedDragon12@reddit
Sunday night Bulgar horde facts.
determine96@reddit
Të uroj mirë edhe ty fqinj !
ARedDragon12@reddit
Më mirë syri sesa nami. Naten e mire, komshi!
determine96@reddit
E shoh që ke shumë në mendje, vëlla! "Nëse nuk ka kokë, nuk ka dhimbje!" Gëzuar !
ARedDragon12@reddit
Molla nuk bie larg molles, komshi. 😁
determine96@reddit
ARedDragon12@reddit
Lower_Squash7895@reddit
Riddle me this,if soulitoes are greeks then why are Orthodox chams from greece who are identical to souliotes identifying as "Αλβανοι" or Albanians instead of Greeks?Souliotes did not identify as greeks prior to the greek decleration of independence, only identifying as greeks because there was no albanian state at the time,prior to the creation of the greek state they considered themselves one with albanians,however the ottoman empire always forced albanians to identify as turks and the ones who did not had to identify as greek,they did not even allow teaching albanian in schools. Furthemore you use the term "TurkAlvan" to identify muslim Albanians, showing that even after 200 years of your independce the greek people still have the same mentality as the Ottomans when it comes to minorities. The muslim albanians were almost always poorer than christian albanians due to them being muslim in the first place to not pay taxes,you and the Muslim chams are identical in everything except faith. To put it simply your denial of your Albanian origins is a result of history being taught from a greek perspective and the greek identity being based on the corrupt Greek and nationalism. Also im not telling you that you should identify as a albanian or become one of those dumb Albanian nationalists, however you actively distance yourself from Albanians and deny something sthat are facts, you cant change were you come from because you deny or choose to ignore it, your forefathers had albanian names and surnames, spoke a dialect of albanian and most importantly identified as albanians, however your nationalism or the Greek mentality that your nation shares does not allow room for minorities. Greece refuses to recognize the orthodox chams of albania as Albanians and has refused to recognize it since the first world war, because Greece conaiders itself only a country for Greeks, your denial of your origin is a result of your countrys core ideals.
ARedDragon12@reddit
Here we go with Albanian essays. I'll riddle you anything you like. I always find it entertaining. Some smartypants Albanian will come to Souliot and tell him, "we brothers" when history proves that rivers of blood separate us from you. But let's dive into your claims because this is like butter on my bread.
Firstly, let's begin with your Cham Albanians, who are a subgroup of Tosks. The vast majority of them are Muslims, with a small minority that is Orthodox, which also used to speak Greek. What makes us "identical" to these Orthodox Chams except religion? And what separates those Orthodox Chams from the rest of the Greeks in Epirus who are Orthodox? Orthodox Tosks, even though migrants to the area are the closest thing to the real deal Albanians, prior to the Ottoman invasion and mass conversion of the Albanians to Islam. And they are pretty similar to the Greeks of Epirus.
Your claim that Souliotes didn't identify as Greeks prior to revolution is a joke. In fact, there is more identification with Greeks than with Albanians, as no Souliot ever before, has claimed to be Albanian. You are more than welcome to show me any evidence of a Souliot claiming to be an Albanian and not a Greek. As a matter of fact. Souliots have always helped their Greek brethren in their prior revolts against the Ottomans. As is exemplified by the 1770 revolt and the revolts of Himara in the 1600s. In fact, the Souliots themselves have claimed to have a blood bond with the Greeks of Himara. Which explains the historical relationships with them. In fact, every prior major revolt in Greece included the support and backing of the Souliotes, and the Souliotes always revolted with the revolts of the Greek nation. Never have they participated in any Albanian revolt. Furthermore, the Souliotes have openly confessed their Greek national conscience even before the Greek Revolution. A fact recognized even by their Albanian enemies, like Ali Pasha, who called them.. Greeks. You are more than welcome to show me evidence where we Souliotes have ever called ourselves "one of with the Albanians" because you are totally clueless and laughable. Talking ignorance and distortion without any evidence.
The fact that you claim the Turks "forced" you identify as Turks is also historically wrong. The millet system placed all Muslims as part of the "ummah" of Mohammed. Everyone else called them Turks, the real name of the millet, was the Muslims. It didn't matter if you were a Kurd, a Turk, a convert, or an Albanian. You were all a part of the same. Ummah. To everyone non-Muslim, you were a Turk. IN FACT WE SOULIITES CALLED YOU TURKS OR TURKALBANIANS AS THE REST OF THE GREEKS DID. Also, the Turks didn't force Islam on you Albanians, but you willingly converted to it to avoid taxes and filled up the ranks of the Ottoman army, and did the dirty work of the Turks suppressing Greek revolts, such as your 11 wars against us Souliotes, of which you lost 10. 🤣 There was no teaching of the Albanian language because your language had no alphabet until 1913. In fact, you Albanians had no national conscience until the late 1870ies and onwards. How the hell would the Souliotes "identify" with Albanians when such a national conscience didn't even exist. Further evidence that the Souliotes never called themselves "Albanians". But there is plenty of evidence, even our own ancestors confessions that they identified as Greeks.
We know our ancestry very well, and we know that our Souliot ancestors spoke Greek as well as their own version of the Arvanite dialect. The fun part is, they were bilingual, like me. And wrote in Greek, as Albanian didn't even have an alphabet Just because I speak another language like English doesn't make me a pasty white Anglo. The key to national identity is identification. And we Souliotes, as you are well aware, identify as Greeks. It has always been so. This is why we always fought for Greeks and never for Albanians. Which brings me to history. We fought 11 wars against the Albanians when we had our own Souliote Confederation. In fact, we forced Albanians whom we called Turks to pay us taxes as a tribute. We didn't tax the Greeks. We never fired a single shot against any Greek in our entire history since our origin in the 1600's. We fought Albanians even after the Souliote Confederation, which the Albanian Ali Pasha destroyed, whike YOU Albanians killed our families and forced us into exile in Corfu. And we returned you the favor in time of the Greek Revolution when we fought you Albanians who were always on the side of the Turk, serving in the Ottoman army. We defeated you along with the Turks and formed Greece.
Which is why I laugh every time some Albanian makes some bogus, unhistorical claims, blinded by his modern nationalism and distorted perception of history. That you even tell him, you are my historical enemy, and he will still persist in his error. Claiming that you are "brainwashed." Laughable and pitiful at best. I know my origins, sweetheart, as I know who my ancestors were and their history. It seems you don't know yours.
Lower_Squash7895@reddit
And how the fuck do you expect me to know that the wiki on souliotes is overran by Albanians? And no, most people dont agree with your views, definetly most greeks
ARedDragon12@reddit
If you read the lower part of my reply, you will understand how incompatible we are. "Most Greeks" is just your personal opinion. Most Greeks, not only agree with me but praise my ancestor too.
Lower_Squash7895@reddit
I agree. Anyways i have forgotten to add something quite important to my arguments page 44 Souliotes saw themselves as closer to Albanian muslims (culturally) and said they had nothing in common with greeks and did not want to fight, however later on they sided entirelly with greece. I already know that nothing will change your mind by the way, just trying to prove a point i made earlier
ARedDragon12@reddit
Oh, so you read my reply after all. Good.
Lower_Squash7895@reddit
Stop grouping me with Muslim albanians. SouliotesSouliotes are christian Albanians who were assimilated later on in history,and they only learned greek after the 18th century,they fought with pro turk Muslim Albanians,however you cannot run away fron the fact that they were Albanians. We are not brothers,Albanians of Laberia have nothing to do with Tosk-Chams like you,as a matter of fact alot of us hate Muslim chams because some of them are drug-reliant, entitled dickheads. You Arvanites always have the tendency to get defensive,cant say too much considering how many albanian Ultranationalists there are. Like i said Souliotes prior to the creation of the greek and state and the war with turks and muslim albanians identified as Albanians,you have not disproven that.
If souliotes were Greeks then why would they have any knowledge of Albanian in the first place? Greeks of thesprotia dont know a word of Albanian.Firstly Albanians were by far the poorest ethnic group in the Ottoman empire, even today the richest people in Albania are Orthodox, you dont know anything but what lies you have learned from the greeks. You have branded me as a turk when i am infact a Orthodox Albanian myself.
The "small" minority of orthodox albanian chams was bigger than greeks in thesprotia prior to ww2(25k muslim albanians,20k albanians 15k greeks and aromanians).You also make the common greek claim that himara was greek, however prior to the 19th century himara was ethnicly albanian and bilingual with the educated speaking greek and albanian, uneducated speaking albanian and the rich speaking Italian
Souliotes only learned greek after the 18th century to communicate with Greeks (check the link i sent you)Also souliotes did not speak "Arvanitka" they spoke albanian that was almost identical to the one spoken in parga today.I know greek, does that make me a Arvanite?No it does not. You dont know shit about your ancestors, you only know them after they became part of the larger Arvanite community in greece.Its not the 19th century anymore,turks dont do shit in the balkans, you identify as greek for a cause that does not exist anymore. And about my origins, i could give you the story behind my surname that dates back to the late 1600s and the origin of my people that dates back before the ottomans but its long as shit.
About the Souliote conflicts with the Muslim Albanians, that has nothing to do with me as overwelming majority of the muslims were Tosks and the ones who were Chams are none of my concern.There were probably also some Labs involved but none of my people are Muslims so yet again nothing to do with me
KopeMaxxer@reddit
How are the Albanians like in Greece i heard men are rowdy and women are debaucherous, is this true
CypriotGreek@reddit
Nobody here really hates Albanians, we dislike Edi Rama (whoever knows of him anyways), and some Albanian internet nationalists
Usually here there are some predispositions about Albanians like how we usually expect them to work in the construction business or being barbers, but old racist terms like calling all Albanians criminals and stuff like that has mostly disappeared from the mainstream, the only racist connotation against Albanians I’ve experienced past 2016 had been calling some HORRID weed “Albanian carpet”
Fuzzy-Tale8267@reddit
Albanians also hate Edi Rama, so we got that in common
JazzlikeAsk8039@reddit
Who is edi rama
CypriotGreek@reddit
The prime minister of Albania
newnewnewthro@reddit
Lol Albanian Carpet? Never heard of that, we usually say pissed on Albanian, as in low quality albanian weed that's been pissed on. Horrible bud indeed.
CypriotGreek@reddit
We also sometimes use pissed on Albanian but here in Crete we usually just say Albanian carpet as it tastes (and looks) like it was plucked from an Albanian’s carpet
Billarasgr@reddit
Albanians were the first incoming immigrants. Until then, Greeks were leaving Greece (emigrants). Greek society did not know what to expect or what to feel. Greece was 99% Greeks before 1991. As I am from a border town (Ioannina) Albanians came through this city first. I clearly remember and will never forget these 100 or so strangers in my playground who popped in overnight. I was 12; I didn’t know what was going on. I never hated any Albanians and I had friends at school playing together. A small part of the society may hate people from elsewhere, but this does not reflect the wider Greek society. Haters gonna hate anyway. If Albanians were not in the country, they would find other people to hate. So, no, Greeks do not hate Albanians.
iIiiiiIlIillliIilliI@reddit
This was true for some people in the past, but not anymore.
dont_tread_on_M@reddit
Not really
Xinpincena@reddit
Greeks are nice people but I have never met an Albanian who LOVED Greece. I would say most of us hold a neutral to negative view about the Greek government. Ps: nato e cresciuto in Italia, posso parlarti anche per i connazionali in Italia. Secondo me hai conosciuto una bolla.
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
I live in Canada and I've met many Albanians that had their childhood/teens/adulthood in Greece (forming years) and they just love it and miss it more than their home country. The 90s were tough for them but after the 00s things got a lot better
Xinpincena@reddit
Ok, because they lived there. To an extent they ARE greek as they got the culture so I can get. My comment was for those who lived mainly in Albania.
RecentCharge9625@reddit
I have met more Albanians who love Greece than who don’t
Xinpincena@reddit
I have to be honest, I don't like for my ethnicity to say that we LOVE someone. It depends on the person. Also, although we and the Greeks some similarities we are pretty different so we can't talk about some brotherly feeling. We get this argument also about Italians but also there, they are neighbours and they helped us so we are grateful but love is really a strong word. Trust me when I say that OP and probably you met a particular "statistical sample".
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Honestly fuck the greek government i am with you they mistreat everyone and are corrupted fucks who care about themselves.
Xinpincena@reddit
Yeah typical shit. In this Albanians and Greeks are almost twins.
elusivemoods@reddit
ngiann@reddit
Personal experience: I am Greek and have lived most of my life abroad. On a recent visit home, I took my parent's pet to the vet. It turned out that the vet was old schoolmate of mine that I had not seen in a long time. Typically, I need a few days when I am back to get my mother tongue rolling again, and on this occasion it took me a bit longer to find the right words as I spoke. She exclaimed that "my Greek was worse than the Greek that Albanians speak". I was so taken aback by this statement, that it was only after I left the practice that I understood that this was plain racist slur.
BamBumKiofte23@reddit
Albanians aren't that much disliked in Greece nowadays. It used to be the case a couple of decades back, due to xenophobia and ignorance.
2024-2025@reddit
My guess is that Albanians got less disliked when non-European immigrants started to come to Greece
Affectionate-Arm-405@reddit
Yup. My guess is well
Zekieb@reddit
That is pretty much the same story for all eastern european/Balkan migrants in western Europe.
RockyBalPunishment@reddit
The only right answer.
Sensitive-Mango7155@reddit
Not from what I saw. A lot of Greeks were mean to my Albanian friend but kind to me when they found out I was Slovene
BamBumKiofte23@reddit
Your experiences are valid. Older people are still around and they obviously succeed in teaching their phobias and hatred to at least some younger people. And I'm far from trying to defend the Greek society as it is today -- we are still close-minded, xenophobic (just look at how we treat newer arrivals) and backwards. It just isn't the case that we "dislike Albanians" if we look at the average Greek.
Sensitive-Mango7155@reddit
Oh no no this isn’t me bashing Albanians I promise because my county isn’t any better. It was just from my experience really. I love Greece and the people were sooo friendly and amazing.
VirnaDrakou@reddit
What age were they?
Sensitive-Mango7155@reddit
Some were young around mid 20s and many were older.
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Then they were bum asses
Sensitive-Mango7155@reddit
Thank you for being kind in your responses. I really do love Greece and the Greeks are very welcoming and lovely people ❤️
VirnaDrakou@reddit
Unfortunately some let xenophobia take over them, bad apples exist everywhere and we are no different.. thank you i hope you had a great time here!
Lgkp@reddit
Anecdote but I had a friend that used to live in Greece (Albanian) and their family were forced to change their surname to something Greek to get their citizenship and also to avoid being discriminated against in the hospital system
LoresVro@reddit
Yes. At least in the online Greek world. Majority seem to hate us for no good reason, really.
sleeping__late@reddit
There are diaspora communities in both. Google Arberesh and Arvanites.
vjosa_e_larget@reddit
Its funny because Albanians are more white shifted but a lot of Greeks might seem to be insecure about their whiteness and sometimes shows against their neighbours. I wouldn't travel there as a Turk or Arab tbh or being clearly non white in general.
Starfalloss@reddit
Albanians here aren’t any whiter than Greeks you guys are obsessed with colour in the Balkans lmao even though it has or rather had nothing to do with anything Albanians we’re disliked cause they are poor, Muslim and history plus the whole northern Epirus thing not because of how they look and the impression they made in Greece at least in the beginning when they first immigrated here was bad being associated with crime and mafia.
BlueberryTrue4521@reddit
Oh yeah, is that why you have a whole thread of Greeks saying they don't hate Albanians, and that was back in the 90s, and ultranationalists don't represent them, but now we are supposed to listen to some story about Albanians supposedly being a menace going around killing people on the street all over Greece? Real believable.
And I'm not saying it's important but Albanians are indisputably more likely to be pale, light haired and blue eyed than Greeks in proportion. Not vastly so, but they still are. Especially with northern Gheg Albanians. There's nothing to disagree with here, it's just the reality.
VirnaDrakou@reddit
I don’t want to ruin it for you or anyone but literally aside from the typical greek/albanian face most of us look alike.
A lot.
vjosa_e_larget@reddit
Same for Italy, if you're not a rich American or North European/German I wouldn't expect nice treatment maybe.
Hiyahue@reddit
People disliked Albanians so much because you can hire 3 Albanians for the same price of one Greek labourer. So many Albanians came when communism collapses that they took jobs away from a lot of people. Why would you ever hire a Greek person when you could get 3 Albanians to do it for cheaper
Traditional-Match-55@reddit
Here is what surprised me about them: Some tiny Albanian wannabe gangsters in my boxing gym started to tell me that todays greek people are not greek, telling me that albanians are the real greeks/spartans etc., I didn't ask for it. They thought I'm austrian. Just before I started sparring with them I told them I'm Serbian and they were like "oh, we are all human". I didn't spar hard, since they were beginners (sport is sport). They were polite and thankful afterwards. But they started to trash talk behind my back the next days. Albanians really have a huge problem with their identity.
SheepherderFree986@reddit
That's my personal experience as well. Greeks generally dont seem to mind or be concerned about them.
ballzstreetwets@reddit
I'm an old Greek and I always thought Albanians are more like Greeks than any other people. Everybody in the world thinks Italians and Greeks are cousins but in reality it's Albanians and Greeks.
Skoteinakias@reddit
From the comments here, it seems the Albanians are the “hostile” ones. While also bootlicking Italy for strange reasons,even though Italians literally look down on Albanians as inferior.
rizlapluss@reddit
Who said to you that Albanians are disliked in Greece?
X90Shaddow@reddit
Albanians and Greeks have a love to hate relationship. They're two sides of the same coin. The anti-Albanian stereotypes have long calmed in Greece. And you'll find that it isn't only 'nationalists' that dislike one another, this is a common phenomenon across Balkan societies.
LektikosTimoros@reddit
Who told you they are disliked?
SnooSuggestions4926@reddit
I mean where are we liked?
usernamisntimportant@reddit
We don't though?
Axil_GR@reddit
Who exactly hates Albanians in Greece? Albanians have integrated into Greek society and the hate and prejudice against them has stopped decades now. Please don't take ultranationalists as an example for a whole nation.
hyenagirl2@reddit
I have family in Greece and the things I've heard them and people around them say about Albanians are worse than the things people in my country say about the Roma population (and Bulgaria is not friendly towards Roma). Granted, my most vocal with prejudice relatives are boomers so it's good to hear the younger generation is doing better.
Psychological_Life79@reddit
Nah we dgaf lol i see greek people similar to us tho all good
klei10@reddit
Albanians and greeks are kinda like cousins
WorldClassChef@reddit
No, that’s why I never go there lmao
BringBackSocom1938@reddit
I think this is similar to how Turks see Albanians are brothers but are shocked to learn they still hold a grudge against us since Skanderbeg. Or how Pakistanis see Turks as brothers only to find out its not as reciprocal as they wish (at least online)
beggs23k@reddit
To be honest, I don't know. I had little experience with Greeks, most of it friendly. In Kosovo or MTG Albanians have no much experience with Greeks. Although I heard there is a minor hatred between. I consider Greeks to be very close to us, genetically and history wise, even though Greeks for millenia were much more advanced.
skadarski@reddit
My friends who lived in Greece but left for elsewhere have told me that the young generation isn't racist, because they all grew together. Indeed, by my personal experiences with younger Greeks, they were very nice. But yes I believe that the older generation is more discriminatory. But younger Albanians in Greece are leaving Greece too. I see a lot of them in Belgium, a lot are in Sweden or in Germany.
And no, Albanians don't really actually hate Greece. But we like to keep them at an arm's distance, because historically they haven't been the best neighbours. Same with Turkey I think. It's a spectrum: there are those who hate Greece (nationalists and Chams who got expelled in 1944), most are neutral, and those who live in Greece that mostly like it. But we don't have anything with the peoples of these two countries. Same can't be said for Serbia though.
itlo@reddit
No surprise, we already know
Senior-Profession711@reddit
It's a myth. Many Albanians have built careers in Greece. There are many friendships and marriages between Greeks and Albanians. They both dislike Slavs and love Anglo-Saxon imperialism.
vjosa_e_larget@reddit
No one dislikes Slavs, it's just teenagers trolling in the internet.
SnooPandas1284@reddit
I don’t think it’s the case anymore. How can I be racist when my least favorite FRIEND is Albanian 🤔? Exactly.
Opposite-Memory1206@reddit
I thought it was the opposite. I used to check out these Facebook groups back in 2012 when I first realised in 2011 at 15 that Serbs were hated and saw all these "Fuck Serbia" pages with Albanians burning Serbian flags and if it wasn't Serbia that was hated then it was either Greece or Macedonia and I was so confused about that. I don't know what the story is behind that, but I thought that during the Kosovo war Macedonia gave place for refuge to some of the Kosovars. I think there were even claims of Greater Albania including parts of Greece and Macedonia, a similar sort of lunacy to Greater Serbia which I only learned about two years ago.