Do Serbians live better than Bulgarians ?

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biversnirds@reddit

Other than Serbia having higher salaries and Bulgaria having higher GDP, everything else is same-same, so maybe in some areas, but only marginally, same goes for Bulgaria.

But since Bulgaria is in the EU for 17 years, while Serbia has a lot of trouble both domestically and internationally, the fact they're even close is remarkable.

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biversnirds@reddit

Higher gross and minimum wage, lower net due to higher taxes

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xoxowony@reddit

When i was in Serbia it was so so expensive, the people were rude and the infrastructure lacked.

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When was that? Last summer I went to Belgrade from Sofia and the roads and infrastructure in general was waaayy better than that of Bulgaria. Their Chinese brothers did amazing job on building the highways. Other than that I didn't found it much more expensive than Sofia and service was just as rude.

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xoxowony@reddit

It was the same in all parts of Serbia. Let's not just give examples only for the capital. The only good roads were the ones built by the EU, which is probably the one you went on. Paid 20€ for one small chicken leg, a piece of Trilece and some water and not even on a touristy spot. Plus never ever rely on China for infrastructure.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Wrong, all highways are in good shape. There is highway toward Hungarian border, toward N. Macedonian, toward Croatian and toward Bulgaria. There is also almost toward Montenegro, and it’s planned to be toward Romanian.

Is there highway Bulgaria-Romania?

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dwartbg9@reddit

Just like there's a highway from Sofia towards Turkey. A highway towards the coastline and a highway towards Greece. The highway towards Serbia is also almost ready. We have highway connections to the important borders and regions in Bulgaria.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Romania? It’s your most important neighborhood

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dwartbg9@reddit

It's not. We don't have big trade relations, if we didn't have borders this could change (and that's the point) but for now they're not.

Serbia is important - being the way from and towards W.Europe

The coastline - obviously why it's important

Turkey - is where everything from Asia comes and hence it's more important than Romania.

Greece - important for tourism mainly but also trade relations, we have bigger trade relations with Greece rather than Romania.

Turkish and Serbian borders are probably the most important ones, and where most of the business flows.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Why would Serbia be important when Serbia is not in EU, meanwhile Romania and Bulgaria will enter shengen and you could without borders travel to Paris.

So, you would like to pay 25€ to Serbian government and CCP if you travel through Serbia?

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dwartbg9@reddit

That's what I'm saying - currently it's actually faster to get through Serbia since they have a highway all the way towards Hungary and border waiting times are slower since you don't have the bridge. Danube Bridge at Ruse is an insanity and slows down the traffic a lot, hence removal of the borders between us and Romania is a must.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Why Romania and Bulgaria didn’t connect via highway in 17 years of EU? Why would you use Serbian/Chinese infrastructure to connect yourself with rest of EU, instead using EU highways with EU countries?

It’s so stupid tbh. It’s like Serbs need to go via Croatia toward Vienna, because there is no proper infrastructure that connects Belgrade and Budapest…

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xoxowony@reddit

Did you even learn geography? Bulgaria and Romania have 80-90% Danube boarded

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mad_monk3y@reddit

Sure, ofc you can't judge a country by it's capital, but I'm comparing capital to capital and the main roads that lead to them and in the city. I have no idea who has funded the highways in Serbia but they are built by Chinese company and even if they are funded by EU Bulgaria also received funds that are probably in someone's night stand drawer.

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dwartbg9@reddit

The Serbian highways aren't built only by the chinese. They're built from Bulgaria too - look up Trace group which built a lot of stuff in Serbia.

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Motor_Papaya5415@reddit

Lol was that chicken leg of a golden chicken :D that makes no sense at all and I live in Belgrade

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xoxowony@reddit

It wasn't in Belgrade, it was on a random road diner near Jagodina

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Motor_Papaya5415@reddit

That makes even less sense since Belgrade is only expensive city

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xoxowony@reddit

Idk why i paid that much. You'll probably think it's fake, but me and my friend who travelled both orders similar meals and had similar bills

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dwartbg9@reddit

It's not just Chinese brothers - the highway towards Nis was built by us haha.

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

Small part of it and they cut the contract with the company.

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dwartbg9@reddit

https://www.tracebg.com/bg/content/%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%8F

Use Ctrl+F and write Serbia. You can see all their projects there. It's not really small

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

As far as I know they canceled the contract.
https://seenews.com/news/koridori-srbije-cancels-road-construction-deal-with-bulgarias-trace-group-1082106

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dwartbg9@reddit

This an article from 2015 and is just about one deal. You can easily see the projects in Trace's website. You can also see Trace logo everywhere on the southern highway in Serbia near Nis too. Don't know what you're trying to prove? You're not believing that Bulgarians are building the highways in Serbia?

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

I told you what I know. Trace build the highway in Serbia, I have never said that they didn't. But also they had problems and their contract was cancelled. I doubt that they will brag about that in their website.

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dwartbg9@reddit

https://seenews.com/news/bulgarias-trace-group-hold-in-6-7-mln-euro-road-repairs-deal-in-serbia-1200868

You can also see on the website that they have projects from more recent years than 2015, which is when your news article is from.

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mad_monk3y@reddit

That's awesome, yet another example that Bulgaria business man prefer to sell and provide high quality service and goods to foreign countries than to invest into their own country.

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dwartbg9@reddit

Yup, for some reason Trace group hold has built a lot of stuff in Serbia.

gif

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Stealthfighter21@reddit

Their Chinese brothers also did an amazing job with the Novi Sad train station.

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

Definitely we haven't had the same experience. Everyone was sweet with me in Serbia (seriously everyone - with no exception - if there's two countries where I was treated with extreme hospitality, they are Serbia and Albania). I've always found cheap hotels or hotels on Booking.com, everywhere. As for infrastructures, roads look like roads, while in Bulgaria there are the worst roads in the universe, worst than in Romania, probably worst than in Haiti or on Mars. There are some wonderful things in Bulgaria (people kind, food amazing, seaside fabulous) but this is what it is.

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dwartbg9@reddit

You're definitely talking out of your ass about the roads in Bulgaria. Where have you been in Bulgaria?

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xoxowony@reddit

You probably haven't travelled everywhere in Serbia. There were almost no inhabited villages near the bigger cities, no metro, no good roads except the EU ones. Imagine hating on Bulgaria while not visiting every corner, hell even my village where there are 20 people and is almost abandoned has nicer streets than most villages in Serbia.

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

No metro? Bulgaria, as Romania, has metro only in the capital city. I hope you were not talking about me for "hating on Bulgaria", because I am not at all hating on Bulgaria, I love it, but just say my mind. I criticize a lot of things for my native country too, without hating the country as a whole. I humbly admit I haven't visited all villages in Bulgaria and nobody did it for any country. But I was in Dimitrovgrad, Bulgaria (my Bulgarian guests there were the best people on Earth) but a good part of the city was gipsy and it looked, excuse me, worst than what I saw in the worst places in the word, maybe Haiti would be worst. Houses without roofs, naked kids on streets, I wondered, wtf is this place, in all cases, not Europe. Romania has AWFUL, AWFUL places with lots of poverty but I haven't seen anywhere such thing than in Dimitrovgrad. Mind you, I had discovered by change a gipsy favela in Belgrade, it wasn't really better. But slightly better.
Peace.

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Pedre79@reddit

I’m sorry, but Romanian villages are far worse than anything I’ve seen in Bulgaria. And you definitely don’t have the infrastructure to brag about. Most Bulgarians travel through Serbia because of the road conditions in Romania, not to mention that Bulgarian construction companies are now active in your infrastructure market. I love Romania and its people, but for a Romanian to criticize our small towns and villages is simply ridiculous. And yes Sofia is better than Belgrade (as much as gorgeous Belgrade is). Better infrastructure, public transportation, shopping centers, a better city center—and don’t even get me started on business centers.Sofia is surrounded by beautiful nature, including Vitosha Mountain, which is easily accessible for hiking, skiing, and other outdoor activities. Sofia has a historical heritage that most of the Balkan capitals do not have, including Bucharest and Belgrade.

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

I haven't seen Sofia, I can't have an opinion.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Tbf, a metro for the other big cities in Bulgaria is next to impossible. Good luck digging in Plovdiv without uncovering 500 ancient civilizations. And good luck digging in Varna without the whole city collapsing in on itself.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Bro, you are talking about roads in Bulgaria, and I have only experienced in Romania that the entrance from the regional road to the highway is through a muddy meadow. It is around Temisoara.

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

I won't say it's not true. I went to Timisoara from Serbia one month ago and it was fine. In Bulgaria all was absolute horror. But I'm not here to say whose the worst.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Well, its true. Although Temisoara are beatiful in the core od the cinty center, everything outside is falling apart, looks post apocalyptic.

And cables, cables absolutely everywhere (this is not common in Bulgaria), only in Albania is maybe worse.

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xoxowony@reddit

Have you visited Haiti, no, do you compare it to Bulgaria, yes. That's like comparing Romania to Tajikistan. What you're doing here is hating, not comparing or analysing like a normal person would. Anyways, Budapest was better than Bucharest in every way, Bucharest felt like Skopje, fake and dirty

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Stverghame@reddit

Ignore her. She is on every Serbia-related thread talking shit, you can even check it in her history of comments.

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Foxito_007@reddit

Serbians are very rude, and almost none of them speak English outside Belgrade ; The Bulgarians have the best hotel service in the ex communist Europe, but they are still somewhat rustic.

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xoxowony@reddit

Totally agree, customer service was so bad there. Almost all cashiers gave me a side eye or blankly ignored me

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ciprian-miles@reddit

European countries that are not in EU pay higher import taxes and some products are more expensive than in the EU. I experienced this in Belarus and Moldova. My god, i was paying a small fortune on avocados in Belarus and also for Italian prosseco.

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markohf12@reddit

I've spent a substantial amount of time in both countries and I also have close relatives in both countries:

If you are an upper-middle class Serb in Serbia, you will live a better life than an upper-middle class Bulgarian in Bulgaria.

If you are a middle (or lower) middle class Serb in Serbia, you will live a worse life than a middle (lower middle) class Bulgarian in Bulgaria.

Stuff is a lot cheaper in Bulgaria, tax is also really low esp. for cars. The average Bulgarian salary buys you a lot more stuff in Bulgaria than the avg. salary in Serbia buys you stuff in Serbia.

But then again, Serbia is cleaner, has better roads, more luxury stuff to go after and has less low level corruption.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Hmm the GINI index is worse off for Bulgaria than Serbia, suggesting that the income inequality is worse in Bulgaria which is kinda opposite to what you are saying
Also, Bulgaria's average GDP per capita is significantly higher at nearly 50% higher

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markohf12@reddit

Statistics is not always the same as in real life experience.

For example I've been pulled over at least 10 times in both countries, I was never asked for a bribe in Serbia, while in Bulgaria I was asked 9/10 times, it's insane. It's so bad in Bulgaria that I don't even have to pretend anymore, I just add the cash in between the doc. to save both of us the time.

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dwartbg9@reddit

Source: Trust me bro.

I've been driving for over 20 years - only once I've been asked for a bribe here in Bulgaria. Also Bulgarian traffic police all have cameras inside the cars that cannot be switched off and you cannot bribe them easily if anything chances of getting arrested if you offer them bribe are huge. Comments like yours give a false impression and recently I remember reading so many news articles about foreigners getting arrested because they tried to bribe cops in Bulgaria. This was a thing in the 90s, early 2000s, not today.

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markohf12@reddit

Source is own experience.

In Macedonia I’ve never been asked for a bribe either, while I’ve heard from foreigners that it did happen.

Think about this for a second, maybe they don’t ask/take bribes from locals?

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Different types of corruption exist overall. Bulgaria may have more corruption of this nature (which I myself haven't experienced much, but ohwelp), but Serbia's corruption is much more rooted in their government, which definitely impacts the citizens' lives much more in the long run.

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Leontopod1um@reddit

Serbia's corruption is much more rooted in their government

I don't get exactly what you mean.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Serbia is an autocracy... Not exactly democratic in nature either.

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_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit

What do you do to be pulled over so often? In about 15 years of driving I’ve been pulled over 3 times - 2 times they let me go with just a warning and 1 time I got a 20 BGN ticket. I’ve never been asked for a bribe, though to be honest, I’m terrible at reading signs.

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Hot-Cauliflower5107@reddit

I can confirm. Never have been asked for a bribe in Bulgaria. Happens all the time in Serbia even when you enter into the country right at the border. The Serbian border officials always seem to have some concern of find some issue on the car or something. They stop their concerns the moment you slip them 10 euros discreetly. It's ridiculous.

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markohf12@reddit

I’ve heard that it only happens to foreign license plates and in rural areas, I was never pulled over in Sofia, driving to Macedonia all the time.

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Dimitroff95@reddit

more luxury stuff to go after.

This is just you talking out of your ass tbh. I'm not even gonna try and debunk your last sentence cuz quite frankly, everyone with a common sense can see how subjective it is. So stop presenting it as a fact.

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markohf12@reddit

The most expensive posh neighborhood in Sofia "Lozenets", is where Macedonian embassy is and also the neighborhood where I have relatives in and where I spend most of my time.

That neighborhood looks so bad it's laughable. Can not possibly be compared with the luxury neighborhoods of Belgrade.

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Dimitroff95@reddit

Is this a serious comment? I mean unironically this is a serious statement? Lmao. You think Lozenets is the actual best Sofia has to offer? 🤣

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markohf12@reddit

And also the area around it, incl. Izgrev if I am not mistaken is one of the most expensive areas to live in Sofia.

Vitosha (and other similar) does not count, as it's a suburb.

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dwartbg9@reddit

Vitosha is not a suburb.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

You are wrong, Oborishte and Doctor Garden are more poshest, and they are more clean and ordered than Dorcol and Vracar, although Vracar and Dorcol seems bigger.

All 4 municipalities are ridiculously expensive for avarage Serbian/Bulgarian

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dwartbg9@reddit

Lozenets isn't the most expensive and posh neighbourhood in Sofia. It's one of them, but isn't "THE MOST" in any way.

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Pedre79@reddit

Definitely not

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AideSpartak@reddit

I can’t speak about “posh” areas of Belgrade but Lozenets is definitely not the “poshest” part of Sofia and it’s not even close. It just has a reputation because it’s a really large neighbourhood and is very close to the Center as well as it sits between the two biggest parks in Sofia. It’s essentially the poshest neighbourhood that is still kind of affordable. It also really depends on which part of it are you judging it, since it’s a pretty large area.

Actual “posh” areas of Sofia would be the Doctor’s Garden or Oborishte

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_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit

Lozenets is an expensive neighborhood but it is hardly “the most expensive posh neighborhood”. I lived there when I was a student and could afford living there on an entry level salary, which is telling.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

What is more expensive neighborhood?

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_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit

Depends on what you want. If you want to live in the city I’d say the Doctors’ park. If you want to live in a house there are several high end gated communities just after the ring road.

My personal favorite would be the part of East residential area (Изток) just outside of Knyaz Boris’ garden. It is probably not the most expensive area (still very expensive) but it is very calm, the buildings are not crammed and is near the best (in my opinion) park.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

So do you agree with Macedonian guy that for upper middle class and richer class Belgrade/Serbia is batter, because there is best of the best in the region?

Historical neighborhoods in the Belgrade

Vracar: https://youtu.be/4u3lKLKtvPc?si=1adhj4K7JS4FHi_H

Dorcol: https://youtu.be/EnuAwS96aa8?si=CH1Uh6bWQEtWxmuI

Dedinje: https://youtu.be/zZ5EItHaM-A?si=PtkrlETDGC-4kVyV

Senjak: https://youtu.be/jKwjP0ZIppM?si=sWXpLMkwujtNE3zs

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

No my guy, I think he just expressed his opinion. Just because a neighbourhood is considered ''luxurious'' doesn't mean someone wants to live there.

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markohf12@reddit

Yes and that is the reason why I mentioned “if you are a middle class or lower middle class” that your life will be better in Bulgaria, but assuming you make 200k+ EUR a year and want the “best of the best”, in this case, Belgrade has more to offer.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Lozenets is NOT the most expensive posh neighbourhood in sofia lmao. And also, it really doesn't look that bad, idk what you're on about.

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dwartbg9@reddit

Serbia is cleaner? Has more luxury stuff to go after? Like what exactly?

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Pedre79@reddit

More luxury stuff to fo after. Come on, that’s just nonsense. Bulgaria have better and higher-quality properties, tourism, and infrastructure. You’re right about the better roads, but the claim about ‘more luxury stuff’ is simply not true

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

And more smiling people. In Serbia I have seen a lot of people in misery with a good moral. In Bulgaria every single one I know is complaining - or almost.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Recently statistics showed, that Bulgarians are the least satisfied with their lives in the EU. Despite not being the poorest in the EU at all... Soo this just tells you that Bulgarians love to whine and complain really.

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drdr14@reddit

Bulgarian cops have now cameras recording what they are doing everything when they are on shift

It’s very hard to bribe them

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Inna94061@reddit

I dont know but my parrents adore Serbia and go on every ocasion.They will be for New eve as well(on some Banja or sonething) . They say the quality of food in Serbia, the meat and the dairy products are superior and its overall lot cheaper. May be because EU didnt ruin them yet. 🤣🤷

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zla_ptica_srece@reddit

They will be for New eve as well(on some Banja or sonething) .

God, the meme is true

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WhySoSober@reddit

cmon man! Edify us, share the meme!

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zla_ptica_srece@reddit

Some years ago one of our ministers said how tens of thousands of Bulgarians are coming to Belgrade for NYE, people of course made fun of him and ever since there's a meme about tens of thousands of Bulgarians coming to Serbia for every NYE.

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NoPlisNo@reddit

Happy to hear that about your parents :) been wanting to visit Bulgaria

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Stealthfighter21@reddit

People of culture, I see.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

''The EU didn't ruin them yet''
Yet the EU allowed Bulgaria to grow to be substantially richer than Serbia sooo, ig it's a good thing we let it ''ruin'' us?

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

After a 10 second search, Bulgaria is ahead in almost every metric. It is so easy to check, why even bother asking here?

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Apprehensive_Rub4924@reddit

Serbia has a higher hdi tho

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NoSpecific1366@reddit

Bulgaria has a much higher Roma population which also affects hdi. The average ethnic Bulgarian lives better than the average ethnic Serb, but I don’t think there are many Serbs living as poorly as the 600,000+ Bulgarian Roma do.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Yes, thats why I said "almost every metric".
Bulgaria actually used to have a higher HDI, but after covid it took a huge hit. Not sure exactly how that works though

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pdonchev@reddit

HDI is formed only by GDP per capita, life expectancy and average years spent in education (you would expect more variables, I would guess). Due to poor crisis management COVID killed disproportionately many in Bulgaria and decreased the life expectancy.

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MartinBP@reddit

We have a high death rate because of poor lifestyle choices and a very old demographic structure. Drinking, smoking and driving accidents exacerbate the issue massively. It's like that in Serbia too but Bulgaria started from a lower point in the 90s anyway.

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WorldlinessRadiant77@reddit

It’s because of life expectancy. It’s much higher in Serbia, while Bulgaria is at third world levels. Blame COVID, our death rate was second only to Peru.

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Fit-Childhood7426@reddit (OP)

На тея статистики много нямам вяра...Малко като инфлацията.Помня,че когато преди една или две години липсваха лекарства имаше опашки на границата със Сърбия.

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dwartbg9@reddit

*

Typical Bulgarian answer. Also why I'm not amazed this question comes from a Bulgarian even... Bulgarians hate their own country more than enemies even

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

I'm not amazed. Every time I try to tell Bulgarians the things I love about their country and people, a lot come to tell me it's a shithole and it's nothing to like. You'll see it in every Balkan country but in Bulgaria it's second to none.

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TeshkoNas@reddit

Further reinforcing Macedonians are Bulgarians because they fit the mindset so much that they refuse it outright

/s (I'm Macedonian, is joke)

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determine96@reddit

Yeah, pretty much except Bulgaria, the other most nihilistic nation I have seen are the Macedonians.

But at least you have more reasons to be like that with all the drama with your neighbors and your internal political "hostage" and divide you experience.

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LetopisetuRedditului@reddit

Nothing comes close to the self-hating Romanians from r/Romania.

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Infinite_Procedure98@reddit

Bruh Romanians are of 2 kinds: self hating and self loathing. Either "we are the best creatures in the universe" either "we are the worst scum on Earth". Both categories are strong, annoyingly strong. Bulgarians are to me PARTICULARLY self-haters. NOT ALL, NOT ALL. But like... idk 60%? Which is a lot. Romania in exchange is full of self-bragging, and the nationalist speech based on nothing is to me as void and irritating as the one's of those who say we are close to Neanderthals.

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IK417@reddit

I am not self-hating. Of course, I am a bit disappointed about myself.

But I definitely hate You(the rest of Romanians) more than I hate myself.

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CondensedHappiness@reddit

Викаш, статистики мастистики. Че кой вярва на учени,нали?
В Сърбия бил ли си?

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ShinobuSimp@reddit

Let’s not use ChatGPT to give us ratings of something this complex jfc

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Apprehensive_Rub4924@reddit

Slower economic development

Well on a national scale, this is not really true since we‘ve (Serbia) been one of the fastest growing economies in Europe for quite a few years now. And i know that the low base effect is a thing however this doesnt really count anymore for Serbia since the sanctions etc. were 20+ years ago. The gap between us is slowly getting tighter.

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laveol@reddit

Какво й има на статистиката с инфлацията? Често го чувам от хора, които явно не разбират какво мери тя. И тук ли е такъв случаят?

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Exact_Sea_2501@reddit

You can check everything on google. People post here to hear different opinions.

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4ku2@reddit

Must be a serb

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Neka_faca@reddit

Why exactly must it be a serb?

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4ku2@reddit

Is a joke

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Neka_faca@reddit

A joke would need to make sense, this doesn’t really.. in fact it comes off a little malicious, but ok, I’ll take your word for it.. and not that it matters, but OP seems to be bulgarian..

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4ku2@reddit

Not everyone gets every joke, which is ok.

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Feeling-Sympathy-879@reddit

This should answer that question. Tho, for Serbia, the grey economy is pretty big, a lot of money being received under the table etc, which fucks up with the statistics and what you see irl. I'm sure this exists in Bulgaria too, but I don't know how much of an issue it is by comparison. I don't believe the avg Bulgarian lives a noticeably better life compared to the avg Serb, but Bulgaria is part of the EU. Even if it's ranked as the poorest EU country, it still has the benefit of being EU, which isn't something to gloss over. We are by default at a disadvantage.

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Hott_dawg_69@reddit

Does it count if you are openly corrupted and don’t try to hide your under table money under the table? Cuz we got that too in BG

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Mladenoff95@reddit

Open corruption and low-level corrupt deals become less and less with time. As with every developed nation, the corruptions becomes more hidden and on higher levels with bigger deals. It is starting to affect average people less and less, which is something expected.

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AdvancedAd3228@reddit

BG is short for Bulgaria, but also for Belgrade, which can cause confusion.

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Hott_dawg_69@reddit

Ops

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drdr14@reddit

Grey economy is big issue in Bulgaria as well I also get money under the table, my salary is the minimum one, little less then 500 euros paid by bank, and I get 800 more under the table I don’t like it but it’s like that here too

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haadyy@reddit

This continues happening because people allow it... Some do it for money, some out of fear from their bosses, some both, some lie to themselves it is the fear thing. All of them are robbing their own future and elders. The money now goes into the pot for pensioners now but also will count when your pension is being calculated... And there won't be any under the table money once you're no longer able to work.

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Feeling-Sympathy-879@reddit

I assumed as much, I was just unsure how much of the economy is in the grey, and how does it compare to us. What you described is a common thing here too, even more so on a person-to-person basis. You hire X person (not a company) to do a certain job, 90% you'll pay in cash, and that person will VERY likely either not report it as income, or they'll have a fictional company where they'd be legally paying themselves minimum wage and pay taxes on that, while pocketing the rest of the money.

Renting is also a massive grey area. Unless you are renting to a company, 99% of it goes unreported and untaxed And it's pretty much out in the open. It's so big that the country just can't crack down on it. A relative of mine, whose pension is roughly 350-400 euros, "on paper" should be scrapping by, but she's actually doing fine as she's renting out an apartment for 500-600 euros, and has no debt herself.

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drdr14@reddit

Sounds like you're describing Bulgaria as well. I have been many times in Serbia and the countries have similar vibe, we also both share similar traits like "corrpution" "theft", the idea to screw up the system.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Bulgaria is above Hungary and Greece in that website too. We aren't really the poorest outright anymore.

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East_Veterinarian_36@reddit

same in Romania. the situation changes as well when you compare cities. Both your people and mine though still like to complain that nothing changed.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Yep... I really don't get what people wanted. People think that just because we aren't Switzerland 2.0, everything was for nothing. At least Romanians complain way less from what I hear.

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MihaiBravuCelViteaz@reddit

At least Romanians complain way less from what I hear.

🤣 I dont think you could possibly complain more than what Romanians do already.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

You'd be surprised then...

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RegionSignificant977@reddit

It's the same with gray economy in Bulgaria. It's massive.

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_-Event-Horizon-_@reddit

The Bulgarian GDP per capita is approx. 50% higher on a nominal basis and approx. 30% higher on a power purchasing basis, which is a very big difference. For example if our GDP drops by 30% that would be a huge economic crisis. The great recession from 2008 saw lower GDP decrease for example. At the same time there is higher inequality in Bulgaria than in Serbia - the GINI coefficient is approx. 37 in Bulgaria vs approx. 33 in Serbia.

Based on this, I would say that on average Bulgarians have better quality of life, though not significantly better, while if you look at the economy as a whole the Bulgarian economy is noticeably stronger.

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SORRYCAPSLOCKBROKENN@reddit

In 1991 the Turkish GDP per capita was around 10x than that of Bulgaria, nowadays Turkey and Bulgaria have basically almost around the same level of per capita levels and their gini levels are very similar with Bulgaria inching slightly ahead. Based on PPP, Turkey is ahead of Bulgaria although I always take PPP metrics with a grain of salt as it can be manipulated easily depending on what you take as a basis for purchasing power. Bulgaria has a lot of problems sure, and perhaps it is the poorest EU state, however still the growth is commendable and impressive together with Romania. I gave Turkey as an example, because due to very slow economic growth in the 90s and late 2010s Bulgaria was able to catch up.

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Besrax@reddit

I just looked it up. We were about the same level in 1991 as well, both nominally and PPP.

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SORRYCAPSLOCKBROKENN@reddit

Which data did you look at? I looked at the IMF data and the difference was huge for 1991. 3691 for Turkey 336 for Bulgaria at the time.

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Besrax@reddit

I looked at the World Bank data. I also saw the IMF one. It's weird that there is such a huge discrepancy, do you have any explanation?

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SORRYCAPSLOCKBROKENN@reddit

I don’t know as well. Could be due to a lack of decent sampling and sources due to Bulgaria being a Communist state a year before. They perhaps used different data sources, thus the huge difference between those two.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Bulgaria is ahead of Turkey, that's for sure. Average salaries are better here, muuuuuch lower inflation on top of that. Bulgaria isn't the outright poorest EU member anymore, as there are some statistics in which we don't lag behind that much anymore, that is important to note.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

The austerity type economy, combined with our corruption is a big reason for why we haven't increased that much overtime. But average salaries are much higher than what it shows, (Competing with Hungary and Greece here) and it's doing quite a bit better than GDP and GDP Per Capita would normally suggest.

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Nothereortherexin@reddit

According to my Serbian friends... nope.

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Stealthfighter21@reddit

They have pretty unrealistic perceptions about themselves and us.

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Nothereortherexin@reddit

You could be right, but some of them visited Bulgaria for some time and just wish to stay.

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Objective-Bug8037@reddit

And romanian?

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Financial-Detail-618@reddit

I currently live in Bulgaria and was considering moving to Serbia. I did some job research but I decided not to move to there since the salaries was lower and rents were crazy expensive.

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viktordachev@reddit

First we don't really communicate and travel in between that much. Any oppinion would be quite personal and based on a limited experience. For example my sister's family and my mother sometimes go to Serbia for a ski vacantion "Oh, it is so cheap, and not that crowded! Very realxing!". I think Serbia has werer and less developed ski resorts. For me it also means that fewer serbs can afford a ski vacantion even if ther own country (or just don't like to ski).

I also observe that Serbia tries very hard to have very much poluting industries like tires, batteries, etc. We also have problems with rivers that run from Serbia poisoned. These would be a matter of a significant debate in Bulgaria and most probably people won't allow them. For example I have land in a place (actually I am just druinking my coffee before going there) which turned out to have significant deposits of Uranium and gold (not to mention the copper nearby, but we are already the largest producer of coppper in the world). The state and ecology greenlighted and now is up to the local people to decide if they want very, very well paid jobs digging gold and uranium or ban it because they are afraid about the ecology. They would probalby decide to ban. Bacause they are not that desperate. Seems that ordinary serbs usually chose to have worse jobs in something obvioulsy more polluting because I guess they have fewer choices.

Metrics are nice, but how do you compare the free movement (and relocation!) inside EU and therefore world. Every bulgarian can always just decide to relocate and study and work abroad and I have many friends (myself including) that at some point made the decision and arranged everything in like 2 hours. That freedom and possibilities add a lot of value. The smallest thing is that you always have a choice and don't have to work and live in poison.

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KopeMaxxer@reddit

I think the better measurement for quality in the Balkans would be the following:

Healthcare - can every procedure be done within the country (For Albanians, many have to fly out to get many procedures done) or access to quality medicine.

Employment quality - Do you have opportunity for higher status jobs in abundance (Pharma, Engineering, Industrial, Academic and research)

Minimum wage to cost of living balance and how much disposable income is left after necessity spending

Access to goods (in Albania it is extremely difficult to get access to international goods because logistics cost too much, small and poor market so many international business won't even bother due to overhead costs. Many have to travel to Greece or Italy to get materials and goods)

These factor heavily impact even if you have great wages here, if you want to have access to some goods, you will spend more money on transport than the price of the goods itself

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Latter-Village8251@reddit

ahhahahahahah hahahahahhahahah ahhahahahahahahha hahahahahahhahahahahahahah

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Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit

How the f. should we know if we live better than Bulgarians? What ever one or another thinks is irrelevant as we didn't spent good ammount of time in other country to judge upon.

Bulgaria has its own problems, Serbia has its own. People live, breathe.

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ccgq10@reddit

Greece has a huge grey economy and is also part of the EU. I don't think being part of the EU will change that. I also don't think Greece is significantly better than any other balkan country when it comes to standard of living. I would think Serbia and Bulgaria are about the same.

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tamzhebuduiya@reddit

Belgrade looks more like city in EU, while Sofia like city in Russia or Ukraine.

Idk how hardcore pro-EU citizens in Sofia deal with it…

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Pedre79@reddit

Да, 100%.

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Smooth-Fun-9996@reddit

The average Bulgarian is significantly richer than the average Serbian especially when you consider purchasing power parity.

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blunt4ever@reddit

Me, as a romanian it was always hard to choose between a bulgarian and serbian. The bulgarian boys are my brothers but the serbian bitches are queens

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Hot-Cauliflower5107@reddit

No way, maybe some Serbians live better than some Bulgarians in Belgrade or the other large cities. If you take the average Bulgarian and the average Serbian I would say the average Bulgaria lives better. Things seem cheaper in Bulgaria. You get more for your money.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Higher average salaries too.

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ViscountBuggus@reddit

I'm sure you can find notable differences if you go looking for them. Hell, you might even conclude that one is overall better. But to me this question is akin to asking "Are the blind better off than the deaf?"

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Except Bulgaria is better, by a much bigger margin. Bulgaria isn't as poor as you guys love to make it out to be.

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Dangerously_69@reddit

Bulgaria probably wins by an insignificant margin.

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LargeFriend5861@reddit

Far from insignificant.

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BlueShibe@reddit

Bulgaria is in the EU which is a big advantage

Serbia is in very messed up situations

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Pillager_Bane97@reddit

Depends, for example Belgrade is unliveable compared to Sofia when it comes to rents.
And bolt capitals greatly change the numbers on every statistic.

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Blasphemous1569@reddit

It's the same, just that Bulgaria in the EU

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Pillager_Bane97@reddit

Depends, for example Belgrade is unliveable compared to Sofia when it comes to rents.

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etnoexodus@reddit

Bulgaria is better to live in by far, but the average Bulgarian probably makes worse choices than the average Serb (drinking, gambling etc) so based on that, I'd say Serbs have it better (for the new generation at least) due to cultural norms being different.

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OldSky7061@reddit

Bulgarian’s live better by virtue of having EU FoM and thus can leave the country easily.

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Suitable-Decision-26@reddit

Some do, I have no doubt. But also vice versa. I have not used health care or rented in Serbia so I don't know. The food seems to be cheaper.

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Loud-Tangerine-547@reddit

No. Next question.

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Preskomesko12345@reddit

Bulgaria has a much better cost of living

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Feeling-Sympathy-879@reddit

This should answer that question. Tho, for Serbia, the grey economy is pretty big, a lot of money being received under the table etc. I'm sure this exists in Bulgaria too, but I don't know how much of an issue it is by comparison. I don't believe the avg Bulgarian lives a noticeably better life compared to the avg Serb, but Bulgaria is part of the EU. Even tho it's ranked as the poorest EU country, it still has that benefit of being EU, which isn't something to gloss over.

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