last week, 6 trucks filled with ammunition for Ukraine were successfully blocked by Greek Marxists in Tyrnavos, why do so many Greeks leftists hate Ukraine?
Posted by Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit | AskBalkans | View on Reddit | 676 comments
KafkasCat7@reddit
You can't be asking why Leftists hate NATO, lmao.
NATOs purpose was to fight communists and serve the "Western interests". They've been an anti communist organization since the beginning who has also done a lot of shady things
More_Dog402@reddit
Yeah. But this is not about NATO in the first place.
These people in Ukraine are killed for NO reason in 21st century. Everyone should be human and try to help as much as they can.
itisiminekikurac@reddit
You're quite wrong. NATO is the reason Ukraine is being attacked, so it is about NATO too.
And Russian people are dying for no reason aswell. Giving more weapons to Ukraine won't make them die less.
You have to stop thinking of countries as live entities, they do not make decisions and are lines in the sand, especially once a war breaks out.
aderpader@reddit
Russian people are dying because they are cowards who refuse to stand up to putin. And i donate 200€ a month for drones to Ukraine to help them kill more
itisiminekikurac@reddit
Well I hope the same happens to you in that case. If you're willing to fund bloodshed on innocent people drafted to military, you should accept the same fate tomorrow.
ZimnyKefir@reddit
Western ambitions of Ukraine people are just an excuse for all Putin's fans.
itisiminekikurac@reddit
Ukraine is in a shutty position. It's pretty much a DMZ of east/weast dick mesurement. And I'm all for western ambitions, but I am against puppeteering.
ZimnyKefir@reddit
Ukrainian folk expressed their will to join western sphere of influence. For Russia it was just last chance to grab the cobtrol over these territories. No puppeteering in here, just people's will.
Fantastic-Donkey-252@reddit
"The people" arent to be trusted
itisiminekikurac@reddit
Zelensky created a puppet state out of previously quite a sturdy nation that wouldn't let neither Russia or America dictate it's course. It's visible as we're virtually in the same situation.
Burrelinho@reddit
Ukraine was a Russian puppet till 2014, hence all the corruption an poverty in Ukraine
denkbert@reddit
Have you ever spoken to an Ukrainian? From the perspective of some of them, they successfully ousted a corrupt government in 2014, a thing a lot of people wish for their country. Only that then their neighboring country invades under disguise. So they defend themselves which leads to the neighboring country shedding the disguise and invading "officially". And btw. this is a standpoint from Russian speaking Ukrainians that fled Donbas. even they don't want to be Russian.
And sure, a lot of Maidan protestors wanted to be closer to the EU, but they only became anti Russian after the invasions. And they "went West" even harder because it is the only bloc supporting them. For their own gains, sure. But there is nobody else for Ukraine. No China, Brazil,... It may surprise you, but smaller countries have their own agency. Maybe not Serbia, I don't know.
itisiminekikurac@reddit
It is what I said. Ukraine used to have agency until Zelensky. Also yes, I have spoken to many Ukranians, most of them EU leaning as I am, many of which don't like what Zelensky's done to the autonomy of Ukraine.
ZimnyKefir@reddit
Sturdy nation? It clearly shows you have no idea what you are posting about. Sociological situation in Ukraine was unstable since the collapse of Soviet Union. Lack of ethnical cohesion, large amount of Russians living in these territories, fuelled by corruption and oligarchy only deepened political destabilisation.
itisiminekikurac@reddit
Sturdy in a political sense. Ukraine wasn't either Russia's or NATO's pupept for some 25 years.
Sociological situation does not exist, I guess you meant social. Also Ukranian people always shared their land with many Russians, ex Soviet nations are all deeply divided by class and corrupted, so idk what in the fuck are you trying to say.
Ukraine was not a one party state after 1991 until Zelensky. Also don't speak of Ukranian people as a single entity, it's disrespectful and incredibly missinformed.
Pekamaan@reddit
Dont bother... echochamber..
ZimnyKefir@reddit
It was never sturdy politically neither. Western aspirations were growing especially among western Ukrainians, since Kuchma left the office. Zelensky changed barely nothing in this regard. Don't put words in my mouth, that I've never said.
Versatilo@reddit
Aah yes Euromaidan surely didnt show that Yanukovych was a Russian puppet, he is currently living in exile in Russia.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Why is Finland not attacked? Finland is smaller and his less population to raise an army. Putin literarely let Finland join NATO. But you are a Serbijan, the true little Russians of Europe.
ColossusOfChoads@reddit
Russia broke off much of Karelia a while ago. Elderly Finns are still mad about it, but it's more or less a geopolitical non-issue. I don't think Finland has anything more that Russia might want to take.
In the hopefully far-fetched scenario where Putin moves on the Baltics next (Estonia, etc.), that's when it would cause real problems for Russian forces.
itisiminekikurac@reddit
Only reason why I won't answer this obvious meme of a question, is that your implication about Serbs is hateful. And since your parents didn't, it is not my duty to educate you, prick.
fk_censors@reddit
But he is right. Unfortunately many prominent Serbs, like Djokovic or especially his father, are showing themselves to be violent communists who support the Red Army and its hammer and sickle banners no matter how much evil it is prepared to do again. They worship satanic violence for some reason, I don't know what it is with Serbian society that promotes such values.
inalibakma@reddit
The ''west'' has been sending just enough weapons to keep the war going at a stalemate. Their purpose is to get as many people to die. And the'yre succeeding. In the end, there will be a ceasefire with russia annexing parts of ukraine and all of those lives will have been lost for nothing.
PriestOfNurgle@reddit
"See?! It's Zelenski's fault!! I'm so clever!"
somegingerdude739@reddit
The logical conclusion to your own logic is that every aggressor should just win all the time lol
Theban_Prince@reddit
No he says that keeping Ukraine War going for so long without giving enough to push for an actual win hurts Ukranians more than simply going for peace like, a year (or more) ago.
Its WW1 all over again, only its not even the West fighting in the trenches but "those people in the East".
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
You think Russia wants to stop? They think they are winning. You think Ukraine will stop resisting and become slaves? Just like Greeks were slaves in the Ottoman Empire?
Theban_Prince@reddit
I dont understand what are you trying to say or why you are bringing Greek history in this?
If it was in my personal power Europe and America would have ended this war on March 2022 at the latest.
But they didn't, and now America is about to pull back even from the low effort they have done. Europe has been even more tepid in its support, and I doubt this will change, much less take up the void left by the US. So what the end game in this situation?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Trump want them t ostop. Will Putin listen to him? POTUS has zero leverage, unless he wants MAD. Ukraine will not stop, they know what it is to be slaves of another empire. How will you force them? I rather have my taxmoney go to Ukraine then to the EU.
Pekamaan@reddit
Get out from your echo chamber and face reality.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Get out of your disinformation gig and report on the zero line. They can use you in their meatwave assault.
Scared_Ad7301@reddit
This is ten years ago. From BBC. The very same network that promotes Russians are Nazis nowdays. Cope harder next time.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Who was talking about nazi's? WHo is promoting nazi's? Russian PMC's like Wagner and Rusich promote themselves. Putin is using same excuses to attack Ukraine as Hitler used to take over Czechoslovakia.
Who is coping now, Ivan? GTFO and go to zero line for your tzar.
Pekamaan@reddit
Sure.. i wouldnt mind an extra citizenship.. great idea!
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
See, you don't need to fight with people. Just find something else where you agree on
PS: if I am correct, you will be fastracked getting Russian citizenship when you join their military.
Pekamaan@reddit
Yup.. hell garisoning lisbon would be nice
Lazy-Mammoth-9470@reddit
I personally agree with you. No one wants to be enslaved. Like the greeks were by the ottomans and, like many, were by the greeks too (and others by other nationalities and races. Slaves have been around as far as long as society has pretty much). Enslavement is wrong in today's society for a good reason.
ExcellentBox1651@reddit
if the russians wanted to make ukrainians slaves they could right now. The Ottomans enslaved the Greeks a sign of brutal repression to quell nationalism. The world would frown upon that kind of behaviour now. You're simply trying to get a rise.
Pekamaan@reddit
What do greeks have to do with ukranians shelling russian speaking majority citurs after the brutal 2014 elections? Ignoring the minsk accords inviting this war upon them.. they fucked arround and are now in they are in the long process of finding out... when you poke the bear dont be schoked when it mauls you
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
It were Russian irrigulars hiding behing hills shooting at RUssian pseaking Ukrainians. Like the Russian army is killing the Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine now. The Ukrainian speakers are 'save' in the West and central of Ukraine. The bear is isnt poked. Their mad tyrant decides he wanted to own more slaves and attacked his neighbour.
Pekamaan@reddit
For the emperor!
somegingerdude739@reddit
Unless of course you count the foreign legion. They should send more but youre being too cynical
mwa12345@reddit
Seems logic isn't your string suit.
Or u jump to facile conclusions.
The person's response also implies the est hasn't given enough arms to Ukraine to "win".
somegingerdude739@reddit
He is saying how the war will end, and that all of the deaths would have been pointless because eventually it will be negotiated.
He fails to recognize thats what fucking war is. It will always end in negotiation and war is just the set up for that negotiation.
How would the talks have gone if ukraine capitulated immediately?
jamvsjelly23@reddit
No, the argument is that the west is intentionally prolonging the war, sacrificing Ukrainians in the pursuit of weakening Russia. Everybody knows this war will end in a peace negotiation with Russia winning, but the west continues to send supply shipments to Ukraine, prolonging their eventual defeat.
somegingerdude739@reddit
Thats an overly cynical approach. Countries have to defend themselves also
jamvsjelly23@reddit
It is a cynical approach, but isn’t that war? Fighting to the death to occupy land that contains valuable resources certainly isn’t a positive or optimistic approach to life
somegingerdude739@reddit
But to say that countries givong 10s of millions in aid is just sacrificing ukraining lives isnt?
Theres cynisism and then theres looking for dark meaning in everything
jamvsjelly23@reddit
Who knew there was any brightness in war. Certainly not the people that have seen it. And if you’ve seen it, I don’t know how you could find any positive and brightness in the reasons for fighting a prolonged war with only one inevitable solution. This is WW2 where a war is being fought to stop the Nazis and fascists. This is a war over land and resources. It’s a war of attrition only one country can win. Continuing to provide aid to the losing side, without providing sufficient aid for that side to win, only drags out their inevitable defeat.
The only way for Ukraine to win is for the west to take a more active role in the fighting and they won’t do it. So if they truly wanted Ukraine to win, why are they not doing everything they can to ensure that happens?
somegingerdude739@reddit
Brighness not in war but in the support ukraine is receiving. If you ask them would they rather have western equipment or not, i think youll find they would rather have it
In terms of amount of equipment. Im sure youre aware that peacetime production of military equipment is slow. And also it takes a long time to ramp up.
And on top of that, you have to expand your own military also to counter the threat,
Im sorry that the west isnt giving aid in sufficient quantities to destroy a nuclear superpower in short term
Mehan44_second@reddit
What's your saying on Trump's involvement that would "end the war"?
Versatilo@reddit
You completely forgot about the sanctions that are currently in place which was done in order to put pressure on Russia?
Sanctions takes time to work and eventually it is planned that there are enough pressure on Russia to make them stop.
Ukraine have recd alot of weapons, however Russia is in a war economy and can therefore match what Ukraine is recieving and what Ukraine is destroying.
The west is not going to put their own economies in a war economy to help Ukraine as nobody here wants 20% interest on their mortgages.
It is also important to note that the west have put restrictions on the use of the weapons to avoid being pulled further into the conflict as nobody here wants to go to war/enter war economy… the sanctions should screw Russia like Venezuela is screwed eventually - Venezuela was sanctioned in 2005 and what Russia have recieved are much stronger sanctions.
Sanctions work, it just takes time, and nobody really knows how bad it actually is in Russia right now and what the long term damages to their economy is.
inalibakma@reddit
Really? Do they though? Or do they increase the wealth of the rich by taking away from the poor? You're a socialist, that's a shame you can't realize it.
Versatilo@reddit
Considering that Russia is running with 21% interest while the rest of Europe have around 3% i would say yes.
Im not a socialist, i just understand why interest rates goes up and down.
Not raising the interest would screw the currency which you now see with the Turkish lira.
InvaderDolan@reddit
Europe would be better to put restrictions on their petrol/gas purchases ;) All those sanctions are clown’s performance because their actual work is laughable and Russia has a lot of European money AND sanctions not to send it to Europe again so russia spends those money in China. In the end, Europe helps russia more than to Ukraine, and China gets al those money. China and USA get all profit and Europe pays for it being under the direct threat.
7_11_Nation_Army@reddit
If you repeat the narrative that Zelensky is damaging Ukraine, you are serving рutin's murderous war.
InvaderDolan@reddit
I completely agree with you as Ukrainian.
keymouse8801@reddit
True, because anything above could and will be taken as active involvement and thus when shut hits the fan we all become legitimate targets.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Lets have Greece or Iran invade Turkey and watch Erdogan surrender. Or would Erdogan lead the fight for Turkey's existence? Knowing that Erdogan is afraid of nobody, I think he would fight, just as Zelensky is doing.
I agree on Putin (he is 21st Hitler) and BIden (who vetoed/delayed other NATO countries support).
inalibakma@reddit
What point are you trying to make?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
YOu mentioned Zelensky with BIden and Putin. I am asking you, given you flag, if you would support your leader surrendering at 1st sight or expecting him to lead the defense of your xcountry (asumoning doesnt exist ofc).
Tilladarling@reddit
I’ve always wondered why Turks and Indians seem to sympathize so hard with Russia
inalibakma@reddit
Low IQ typical. I literally said that russia is on par with the US. Both are equally bad.
Tilladarling@reddit
It’s not like your entire post is permeated with contempt for “the west” or anything… not at all…
No western country has been anywhere near as close as awful to Ukraine as Russia has been. It’s their choice to fight, just like 🇹🇷 feels it has the right to fight PKK. There’s a reason why “Russia is a terrorist state” is common nowadays
SpookyPotato9-9@reddit
No eastern country has been anywhere near as close as awful to 🇮🇶, 🇾🇪, 🇸🇾, 🇨🇺, 🇲🇭, as 🇺🇸/nato has been
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
None of these countries you mention have been anywhere as bad as occupied Ichkeria.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Russian propeganda+trade (In case or Turkey)/ historic friendship (in case of India).
GRemlinOnion@reddit
Where did he sympathise with russia? The west wanting an ongoing war with russia is fact, otherwise they'd have actually supported it by now instead of giving them ammunition.
Queasy_Evidence_8237@reddit
If the problem is that they aren’t receiving enough support then why is cutting off what little they get supposed to be sympathetic?
Tilladarling@reddit
The EU isn’t a war machine like Russia. Our economy is t geared towards weapons production. There’s simply no way to deliver all the weapons needed. It has nothing to do with wanting a drawn out war that gains no European economy
Tilladarling@reddit
Where did I ever accuse you of that? I’ve never replied to you
Prior_Material_2354@reddit
The Russo-Turkic wars, the Soviet Union trying to claim Turkish territory in WW2, on opposing sides in the Syrian Civil war, Turkey shooting down a Russian fighter jet in 2015. I don't exactly see any sympathy going on lol
mwa12345@reddit
This. Turkey Has probably fought more wars with Russia in the past 150 years that the west . Such a stupid claim that the poster from turkiye was sympathetic to Russia.
That is brain rot. More so when you realize turkey provided drones that the Ukrainians used a lot to stop the initial invasion in 2022
mwa12345@reddit
Think you didn't read the part where he /she said 'this is Biden, zelenky, Putin against humanity ' or similar.
Fantastic-Donkey-252@reddit
But it is about Nato, and countering Russian expansionism from further threatening Nato nations
When the question of not just the ukrainians killed but also the russian lives lost is asked suddenly the supporters of ukraine are alot less humane
Remeber kids, millions of dollars worth of weapons saves lives
30mart1972@reddit
everyone, public and politicans, are already helping ukraine as much as they can
on the other hand, there is lots of help from the public for palestine but 0 from politicians
or yemen, where 65.000 children were starved to death by american-zionist-saudi-emirati coalition - very little help outside the muslim world and also 0 from politicians
being human requires to be a voice for all human suffering, not white suffering or european suffering but human suffering
Next_Yesterday_1695@reddit
I'm going to break it down to you. Take 100 average men in Ukraine and ask them if they want to fight. Then ask them if they can do anything about forced conscription. It's quite obvious that sending weapons to Ukraine at this point is fueling the war.
ConsequenceWeekly827@reddit
You mean like you did to bosniaks and albanians in the 90s ?
Wanjuan_Li@reddit
Well the people of Ukraine also killed Polish, Jews, and Russian speakers for No reason.
slimebor@reddit
That was in 1940s
No_Confusion5016@reddit
Oh there are many reasons you just failed to acknowledge them at the start and now you're so deep in this propaganda that you don't wanna see the reasons
GeneseeHeron@reddit
The grafiti on the truck says "NATO KILLERS GO HOME". So I'm going to go put on a limb here and say it's partially about NATO.
TechnicfreakHD@reddit
Well, the pro-Russian people believe that Russia is justified in attacking Ukraine because Russia felt threatened by the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO, a defense treaty organization. For them it is about NATO, and most of them equate NATO with “the west”. So they’re anti-western, and thus anti-NATO, and thus anti-Ukraine. Or in other words, they’re idiots who are easily convinced
AnizGown@reddit
Yeah... People are killed everywhere.. People just don't care anymore. Turkey bombs Kurdistan, Israel is bombing Palestine, Azerbaijan vs Armenian, Somalia vs Somaliland, Sudan civil war, Burkina Faso vs Mali, Myanmar civil war etc..
Most people are unaware, and only pay attention to those conflicts that massmedia pick and choose show
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts
DelyanKovachev@reddit
Did you take your pills commie?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Don't bother too much. Many Putin sympathiziers here. Or vatniks as in Russian pro-Putin people are called.
577564842@reddit
But of coure it is. Before Nuland came around, people would geniously have hard time locating Ukraine (the Ukraine back then) on a map, and would think it is one of the communist or ex-communist (again, hard times to tell the diff) *stans.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Nuland went there to beg to the Maidan protesters to let Yanokovich stay in power. Just like Bush went to Ukraine in 1990-1991 to beg that they would stay with Russia.. Keep spreading Russian fairytales.
villke@reddit
Humane think would be to end the war in march 2022.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Russia can always leave!
mariosx@reddit
There's always a reason...
Cheap_Marzipan_262@reddit
Ukraine is not in nato and Putin has notthing to do with communism. So dunno what you are lolling about.
Accomplished_Lake_41@reddit
NATO is fighting against China and Russia
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
NATOs new purpose is to ensure the current world order and maintain free trade (although this is mainly done by the US now with help from the UK/France)
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Lmao, nice one!
MartinBP@reddit
NATO hasn't started proxy conflicts in a looong time. There have hardly been any proper proxy conflicts since the collapse of the USSR.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
Syria, Iraq, Afganistan, and Yemen ware just for $h!ts and giggles, eh?
Sudan, Nigeria, Ambazonia, and Ethiopia ware done in the name of the sport?
The Gang/Cartel wars in Mexico, Haiti, Papua new Guinea, and Jamaica are all caused in the name of the crucial human right to produce & sell drugs, huh?
I guess you are right, neither of those are really "proper conflics" given that currently more than 60% of our Planet lives in helish war zones- Mexican cops casually have to give you your speed limit fine under the escort of RPG's and HMG's given that Mexican Cartels unironically have unrestricted access to the most cutting edge & still experimental American arnaments if they so desire it via the CIA friend route- but hey man, who really cares about Mexico, am I right?
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
That's literally what they do
The US navy is the one protecting global trade routes (with the help of britain and france) and the current world order is a US led one which is propped up by US allies (mainly NATO)
Responsible_Lawyer_3@reddit
Youre arguing with a potato
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
We went to a Russian bot meeting.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
"Everyone I don't like is a Russian bot!"
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
I'm used to it, it's the reddit experience lmao
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Mostly Russian bots here.
B50O4@reddit
lol I just schooled prize so hard he blocked me and deleted all his nonsense comments. What a guy 😂
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
The current world order is neoliberalism which is the enemy of leftists since its close to as far away from socialism as you can get. Only thing more anti socialist then neoliberalism is fascism.
HovercraftFinancial2@reddit
Ah yes, the neoliberalism art of paying 42% taxes + social contributions in your average western European country - the new world order
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
USA had a 90% tax rate on the wealthy in the 1950's. 40% tax ain't that much.
Europe is very much neoliberal cause the entire economy even infrastructure and utilities in some cases, are private + the governments sucks off mega corps and props up the economy endlessly though printing and other measures. There was a time when most utilities were all state owned but they were all privatised slowly ever since it was statyed by Thatcer in the UK.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
I think you are mixing up the USA with Europe. Unless you think Europe is UK, then you might be right.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
I am just saying that a 42% tax rate ain't that hard. Europe is plenty neoliberal too. In France even the highways are private(even though they were all built with public money, yay neoliberalism😃).
There was a time where the government didn't constantly help corporations whenever they fuck up, when the utilities were government owned, when the infrastructure was government owned, when things like anti trust and coporate punishments were actually enforced.
Europe is not as neoliberal as the USA but it is most definately still neolibera. Classical liberalis is dead and has been since the Great Derression broke the global capitalist economy. Since WW2 Europe and the USA has just been getting more and more neoliberal.
Europe is less neolib cause it was next to the USSR + it had way more living standards issues so a lot more worker radicalism(USA has literally the best spawn point in the world and has always been able to assure at least basic living standards to its people so low radicalism) which means there was fear of revolution and so concessions were implemented AKA workers protections and social programs but these are slowly being stripped away, probably the biggest way they are being stripped away being immigration which massively lowers the price of labour.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Americans are more radical then the average European (Russians included). People who cant life without their guns. People who sing the national anthem while hoisting their flag each day. Not much countries in Europe had this tradition. Nazi Germany was one of the last.
You didnt follow US politics past decade? They are pretty radicalized and divided.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
No its not. Europe had revolutions, civil war, and extremist regimes. You can't get any more radical then that. The average American you talk about would pussy out immediatly if they had to starve in a trench to fight a civil war. There is a diffrence between tweeting about your gun collection and fighting a revolution. Europe went through many revolutions and civil wars through the 19th and 20th century so its way more radical overall.
Yeah nowdays Americans are more radicals but I was talking about how it was historically. USA radicalism nowdays is cause the US is having increasingly more issues which is what causes radicalism. For most of its history the USA has managed to maintain a extremely high quality of life while Europeans countries often ate shit and died and when people are starving then a revolution is coming. USA has never suffered a crisis on the level of 1919 Germany or 1917 Russia or other times Europe experienced extreme radicalism.
Europe did always have more socialist elements, mainly cause it wasn't as prosperous and when people aren''t living good they will be more willing to go towards radical ideologies such as socialism, but the USSR funding socialst and communism movements through Europe definately played a role. The threat of revoultion did result in many concessions to the working class. Nowdays there isn't a socialist power in Europe anymore and so worker concesions are slowly being stripped awy.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Nice essay, but i am not interested in Vaush or HasanAbi lengthy stories. If I were, i would watch their YT.
mwa12345@reddit
Well said. At the height of the cold war.
It was under Reagan that US started running up huge deficits ...while not fighting a hot war
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
These people are not socialist. Socialism is good, it exist in most European countries. Communism is bad, they are the fascists of the left.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
No. Communism is the revoutionary wing of socialism. To say they are fascist or close to it, is political illiteracy since fascism is a reactionary movement against socialism and one of its core tenets is the merging of the private corporations and the state(according to Mussolini) AKA capitalism but without freedom. The only similarity with fascism is that they are the most extreme wing of the leftists. Marxism Lenninism, which is what these people are is explictly anti capitalist and therefore impossible to be fascist.
They are without a doubt socialism. The only diffrence between socialists and communists is that socialists are not revolutionary and wish to enforce their vision through electoralism in the capitalist countries while communists believe that the capitalist countries are rigged in favour of capitalists and so electoralism exists to build support but there needs to be a revolution.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
They are extremist who default in a dictatorship, where a small group end up ammassing all the wealth. What was socialist about taking land from the farmers and execute them or send them to gulags in Far East? When ideology is more importoant than the live of a common person, then you are just as bad as the rightwing extremists.
IDF about Marx theories, humanity is too dumb to implement his fairytales.
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Said world order being neoliberal and completely contrary to a traditional leftist's beliefs.
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
There's no beliefs about this, even countries like China and Russia acknowledge that we live in an american capitalist world order.
It's just a fact, america could strongarm the next 5 strongest nations into submission if it wanted to. (which is doesn't need to since half of the next 5 strongest nations are their allies that uphold this world order)
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
It's laughable to think America could force China and Russia to do anything.
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
Not currently but in the case of a war they could.
The strongest airforce in the world is the USAF
The second strongest airforce is the US navy, let that sink in. China and Russia have only recently fielded their counter to the F22 which the US developed 2 decades ago (the counters are alright but they haven't even started mass producing them yet). China has only recently developed a stealth bomber which the US did decades ago and still it's significantly worse. The US navy in terms of tonnage is more then double Chinas and their stockpile of weapons is several trillion dollars larger. Russia doesn't even have a stockpile anymore.
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Russia and China have nukes. End of story. The reason NATO forces haven't invaded Russia is due to them having nukes.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Join the military and attack Russia then. You are from a NATO country.
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Fuck no. Only far-right loons have done that.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Then if you hate NATO so much, move to Russia.
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Nah, since NATO is a defensive alliance, they can stay within their boundaries and stop chewing more than they can shallow. Opposition to its shenanigans is widespread, anyway.
kalispetros@reddit
The US knows exactly where each one of Russia's nukes and nuclear submarines are at any point, Russians have terrible opsec, that's why Putin has stopped mentioning nukes in his speeches. He's not going to do anything and the constant sabre rattling makes him look weak.
Also NATO is a defense treaty it doesn't invade.
PutlersGstring@reddit
Interesting. I was following this conversation and now see you deleted all your comments and ran off having been corrected. Nice
B50O4@reddit
This comment is laughable. Have you seen the Russian military in Ukraine? It’s an embarrassment
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Surely, that's why they're on the brink of winning.
RemindMe! 4 months
B50O4@reddit
If you’re asserting either country is anywhere near winning then you’re in the wrong conversation. And what’s your deal anyway? You simp over oppressive authoritarian dictators starting wars of imperialism?
Russia has seen almost 70% of its entire conventional land army’s equipment destroyed. Let this sink in.
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Yes, I'm asserting that by spring of 2025 we won't be taking about the Ukrainian conflict. Also, Russia can lose much more equipment and men and still defeat Ukraine, which is by the way in political turmoil at the moment.
B50O4@reddit
You tried asserting one side was close to winning when that is not the case for either side. I corrected that and then added context. The war only ends in 2025 if we stop helping Ukraine defend itself. Something the entire western world will regret if we do. 80 years ago we tried appeasing a dictator who just wanted some extra land. Look where that got us.
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Ukraine is going to lose, because no more money is going to be siphoned off there. It's just a fact. Peace will finally come.
B50O4@reddit
Correction: you have tried asserting something that you have no way of knowing. Moreover, you’ve been showered with evidence of the Russian military inability to achieve anything while their military gets destroyed to almost no armour left. Lastly, you’re showing how short sighted you are in the face of history. Peace never comes after appeasing a dictator. What will more likely happen is the war continues until he ruin is forced to make hard decisions in regards to offensive operations once his vehicle numbers drop to numbers that won’t allow it to maintain the same length of front. So he’ll either have to concede land back to Ukraine and concentrate on a smaller front or stop and hold what he has.
Peace comes once Russia has been soundly defeated with no option for a ceasefire to rebuild and go again.
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Once again,
RemindMe! 4 months
B50O4@reddit
lol. Soundly schooled 👍
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Nah, I've gotten used to this pro-Ukraine propaganda. Good job, you blew up some tanks. Get ready to lose the war.
B50O4@reddit
Telling yourself that won’t make the L you received any less real. Nobody is close to winning. You’ll have to come to terms with the fact sometimes you’ll spout nonsense and get corrected for it 🤷♂️
Prize_Self_6347@reddit
Yeah, I got schooled so hard that even Zelensky has acknowledged that the war is going to end sooner with Trump as POTUS. Once the tap closes, thus ends the war.
However, enjoy your online W. We shall see in 4 months wherever or not there still is a conflict in Ukraine and Zelensky is PM.
B50O4@reddit
lol! Are you this impressionable? Zelensky is saying this to play into Donald’s ego. Donald himself has zero idea what he’s talking about in regards to the war. Zelensky is not the first and won’t be the last to treat Donald like a child to get into his good books. Moreover, Donald likes to look a winner, if Putin does not play nice Donald is likely to push enough gear into Ukraine for the win. Remember, you can’t rely on anything Donald says. He’s gone through his entire life saying one thing and doing another the next day. He’s a nitwit.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Upvoted all you comments in your duels with the bot. Was it a tankie, vatnik or MAGA (since you mentioned Trump in your latstest comment)?
RemindMeBot@reddit
I will be messaging you in 4 months on 2025-03-16 21:53:49 UTC to remind you of this link
CLICK THIS LINK to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam.
^(Parent commenter can ) ^(delete this message to hide from others.)
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Russia is not communist. China is a socialist market economy, between communism and capitalism in.
B50O4@reddit
Not sure why you’re being downvoted. Nothing you said was inaccurate
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Chinese, Russian, North Korean bots. Pro Putin trolls from other countries. Tankies. Pick you poison, thread is full with these kind of people.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
NATO was dead. Trump wanted to disband it in 2020, if he was reelected.
CrazyGreekReloaded@reddit
To be honest even Greek right wings hate Ukrainians! Only fascists like them
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Among Putler lovers a "fascist/Nazi" is everyone who hates Putler.
BTW at least the Greek rightwings get paid by Putin. The Marxist Leninist do it for free lol.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
No, Greek politics are simply conservative and self centered by nature so they universally hate everything that happens to be outside of Greece no matter if it happens to be the same alightment/ideology as them.
But don't let that fact pierce your little soap bubble, God forbid us "Balkanized" indigenous runts have our own circumstances and worldview that has little to do with your Western mass produced Media Brainrot.
Aromatic_Sense_9525@reddit
NATO was designed to counter the imperialist entities known as the USSR and international communism.
Most leftist have zero things to worry about from NATO, so long as they don’t plan on nationalizing their property without paying… which communists love to do.
KafkasCat7@reddit
NATO against imperialists? Dude cmon, you can't be saying this seriously
NATO was formed by the OG imperialists. You know Brits, French etc...
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
And they promptly decolonized afterwards. Where the white Europeans in the USSR kept all their colonies. Only until 1991, they partially decolonized.
#Free North Asia. Free Buryatia!
B50O4@reddit
It would not let me reply in the other guys thread because he blocked me.
Prize_self_6347 was the user trying to say that it was all the wests fault. Obviously no blame is to go to Putins imperialism. What a muppet.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
And you will see more. I wonder what is more harmful, these usefull idiots or the actual online saboteurs in our countries?
B50O4@reddit
His profile is displaying a Greek flag. Unsure how a Greek turns into dictator simp but whatever. Sad man. Is he still here talking rubbish?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
IDK. I am bust left and right (mostly left) to swat away these vatniks. THere are all the same lol. However it is possible Europeans are recruited to spread misonfomration. In fact it is possible that these Greek protesters had people among them who are paid by the Russians.
zulufdokulmusyuze@reddit
The west moved on after winning the cold war, the leftists are still living in the cold war era.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Good healthcare, great educationsystem, pro migration, pro womena's rights, pro freedom of religion. i am left.
They are extremist tankies, like fascist are extremist on the right.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
I always wondered why Greece was in NATO.
GattoNonItaliano@reddit
Why don't they go to Russia? Is their perfect place.
Barice69@reddit
Communism with homophobia charactheristics strik3s again !!!
Maimonides_2024@reddit
Communists : why don't Eastern Europeans like us? We're anti fascists and anti American imperialism
Also communists : do stuff like that
It's funny too, I'm someone who like communism and the USSR but seeing the attitude of modern day communist groups in practise against marginalised groups it isn't surprising that most Ukrainians hate communism lmao, it's user as a tool for imperial propaganda
b3141592@reddit
If NATO allowed the overthrow of your Democratic government for a repressive military junta while supposedly being your "ally" - you too might come to hate NATO and always choose against it
MartinBP@reddit
Greece came out in a better state than any communist country. You'd be poorer than Bulgaria if the communist plague had won the civil war, and the atrocities they would've committed wouldn't have been an improvement from the junta. It's mindboggling how so many Greeks can look at the crime against humanity that was the Eastern Bloc and blame the West for keeping them out of it.
StavrosM97@reddit
we are, currently, poorer than bulgaria
Returntomonke21@reddit
Yes this is why our GDP is literally more than double of Bulgaria while GDP/capita is 7k USD higher and when adjusted by PPP 4k USD higher. Miserable neogreeks are pathetic
StavrosM97@reddit
https://www.kepe.gr/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/54.1.3.pdf
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Living_conditions_in_Europe_-_income_distribution_and_income_inequality#Income_inequality
https://www.ot.gr/2024/09/11/english-edition/geeks-among-poorest-in-eu-in-ppp/
StavrosM97@reddit
Το GDP δεν είναι καλός τρόπος να κρίνεις το living condition μιας χωρας. Με κάθε άλλο metric όπως αγοραστική δύναμη ή income inequality είμαστε πάτος.
Degen5@reddit
You still think Greece is much better than Bulgaria?
Alert-Natural4572@reddit
We have a saying that describes people like you in Greece, "ναι, αλλα εφτιαξαν δρομους". Our country has been a satellite state of colonial EU and US interests for nearly all of its modern history, and you want us to be thankful for it, yikes.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Sattelite state, you mean more the bottomless money pit or the EU.
Alert-Natural4572@reddit
If you wanna buy a country you gotta pay for it
AlegusChopChop@reddit
Yeah. Greeks are a really retarded nation. No wonder this country is screwed while former eastern bloc countries are surpassing us due to their free market economies.
ApTreeL@reddit
Ukraine will come out better after russia wins the war, so it's justified ?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
After Russia wins the war, there will be no Ukraine.
elektronyk@reddit
Yeah let's allow Russia to commit genocide because of a coup 50 years ago.
og_toe@reddit
who said they want russia to keep waging war? we are for peaceful settlement immediately, not russian supremacy
elektronyk@reddit
It's not only about the war, Russia is committing genocide in the areas they occupied aswell. And Putin wants Ukraine to surrender more land if they want Russia to accept peace.
og_toe@reddit
warcrimes come from war. a peace agreement is a peace agreement, as in no more killing. whatever putin and zelensky want should be discussed between them during negotiations. keeping a war going and people dying just because ”this is my land, no this is my land” is quite frankly stupid and only the working class is suffering from this war, as usual.
elektronyk@reddit
You are talking about Ukraine's internationally recognized territory that even Russia recognized until 2014. It's simple, Russia invaded Ukraine and took Ukrainian territory.
Also it's bullshit that genocide only happens during war, read up on Russian internment camps for Ukrainian civilians that were established in the occupied lands
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_filtration_camps_for_Ukrainians
The_Shittiest_Meme@reddit
and we should allow fascist states to just march up with guns and take territory for colonialism and genocide because "the working class suffers from war". Stupidest fucking take possible. Historically appeasement always works so well when fighting fascists so lets keep doing it!
Proffan@reddit
You're not fighting NATO, you're killing Ukraineans.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
Ukraine willing would strenghten NATO. If you hate NATO then you kinda would want Ukraine to fall wouldn't you?
Proffan@reddit
Not really? If your problem with NATO is that they supported a junta in your country then supporting a different country that starts wars of aggression and sponsors coups in their neighbors then no, it doesn't make any sense. "NATO/USA" bad is not an actual legitimate geopolitical foundation.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
They don't support Russia. The party in question denounced Russia and every leftist party that refused to denounce Russia and the war in general cause they are commies and denounce wars like this as capitalist wars at the expense of the workers.
Thing is that they just really hate NATO cause the UK and USA fucked Greece up and slaughtered communists there cause they were close to siezing power and so now they hate NATO the most. They want NATO to get fucked first of all then anything else.
Proffan@reddit
This is like denouncing a rapist but saying that the police shouldn't do anything about it. Any sane person would say you're supporting a rapist.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
So your only acceptable option is helping NATO no matter what? How do you propose they oppose NATO? Their got massacred by NATO and then had a dictatorship imposed upon them and now you want them to back NATO, their enemy, just so Ukraine gets help?
Bruh the whole point of communism is NO COMPROMISES. It is a REVOLUTIONARY ideology that seeks to overturn capitalism through revolution. The whole reason why communism exists is cause the radical socialists in the early 20th century determined that the capitalist countries are designed in such a way that even if a socialist wins the elections they would not be able install socialism cause the legal system is designed to maintain capitalism and so electoralism is a waste of time and the workers party must pursue revolution. If you are willing to compromise with the capitalists without there being no other choice(like for example you are fighting nazi Germany and its policy of killallpeopleism) then you kinda just stop being a communist.
Also once again to someone who greately hates NATO, Russia winning would be a W since NATO gets fucked even though Ukraine also gets fucked cause the person in question really fucking hates NATO.
Proffan@reddit
Not reading the rest of your bs Russia apologism. Just answer this simple question:
If you were anti-cop would you try to stop the police force from apprehending a rapist who's in the process of raping someone?
ApTreeL@reddit
Only thing nato has for to ukraine is prolong the fight so thousands more Ukrainians die , good for the military industry complex and weakens russia, ukraine doesn't benefit from this
Proffan@reddit
They want to keep fighting, NATO is just giving weapons to a nation that is getting invaded.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Russia can always go back to their country. War solved.
ApTreeL@reddit
That's true , doesn't mean ukraine shouldn't be a bit pragmatic and realize that the us is screwing them over
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
You know Russian peaceplan is basically " game over Ukraine, ytou doesnt exist anymor"? Russian propegandist
ApTreeL@reddit
Russia seemed to care the most about ukraine not joining nato which is valid imo
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Russia had already achieved Ukrain not joinin NATO, by occupying Crimea. Besides I bet Orban or one of Putin's other NATO friends would had vetoed Ukraines NATO bid. Any other misinformation you want to share?
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
Damm what a intelligent respone calling everything BS lol. U didn't even have good enough reading comprehension to realize thay I obviously was not even agreeing with it cause I kept refering to commies in third person and just explained their position, and I never said that I back it, but reading is hard, so it is what it is.
And no, I would not stop a policeman from fucking up a rapist cause I hate rapists way more then the police. Also the police is just a institution of a country that mostly stops crime and not the same thing as a international alliance enforcing a global order. Simplifying complex issues into small things like that just means you either are disingenuous and arguing in bad faith or that you don't understand the complex issue.
WASDKUG_tr@reddit
Damn, first time getting your Government Overthrown by your allies?
b3141592@reddit
Bro I spit out my drink when I saw your comment 🤣
WASDKUG_tr@reddit
TURKEY!
Getting Overthrown by a Coup that's Supported by your Allies Since 1960!
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Marxists (the non western liberal/troskyist kind) hold a scientific-based world view, where imperialism is considered the primary contradiction, ie the main enemy of the people. Ever since the end of WW2, America is the only imperialist hegemony in the world, hence anyone opposing imperialism (like Russia is) is supported by (real) Marxists.
This might be confusing to a liberal with a dogmatic, ideological world view - because to you everything boils down to the color of the flag being waved and similar surface level things. But to a Marxist, even Iran is a progressive force on the merits of it's revolution and it's principled anti-imperialist stance.
Anti_Thing@reddit
Russia's war against Ukraine is objectively an imperialist war of aggression, though. Russia, outside of it's small, European ethnic core, is a settler-colonial state much like America, & China is also a settler-colonial state in regards to its West & much of its North.
The supposedly "scientific" nature of Marxism has never been proven to any legitimate scientific standard.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
As I said, only when you use the reddit definition of imperialism ("big kantry atak smol kantry")
Utter nonsense
Anti_Thing@reddit
Invading another country & claiming its territory as your own is quite literally the definition of imperialism. Most of Russia was settled by white colonizers, just like America. How did you not know this?
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
A meaningless reddit definition, yes.
Paired beautifully with the meaningless reddit definition of colonialism (in both cases of Russia and America).
Anti_Thing@reddit
It's quite literally the only reasonable definition of imperialism. It's typical of leftists to distort the plain meanings of words. Western leftists do it with "marriage" & "gender", for instance. Whatever wonky definition of "imperialism" you're using was most likely fabricated as a cover for the Russian imperialism exercised by the Soviet Union.
Most Russian land was taken from indigenous people & *colonized* why white people. How is that any different from what America did, & how is it not colonization to colonize a country?
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
"Imperialism is when country big. The bigger it is, the more imperialister it is," Very profound sophistry.
Leftists coined the term as it exists, fool. Before that it had a vague meaning with a positive connotation, used by the English to describe the policies of the British Empire.
You mean like you're doing right now with the words "imperialism" & "colonialism"? Redefining them through the lens of rabid liberalism, struggling to make sense of it's own existence?
The first study of imperialism, by Hobson, predates the Soviet Union by 20 years. Imperialism had no other meaning, other than this one, until a few years ago - when the meaning was suddenly obfuscated by western liberals to mean it's opposite: "when a civilization successfully defends against American imperialism." You whine about "leftists changing words", when it is in fact you who are appropriating and inverting leftist terms for your fascistic demonization of Russia.
A minute ago you were whining about "leftists changing words", but now you want to be a blue haired SJW crying about Indians? Classic liberal.
I already told you: neither America nor Russia are "settler colonialist states" (whatever the fuck that means) - another meaningless liberal term. Just like imperialism, colonialism too has a very specific meaning. You can't just change the meaning of words to suit your ideology.
Anti_Thing@reddit
Imperialism is when a country expands their power over other countries, especially expanding their borders through force. Denying the imperialistic nature of Russia's invasion of Ukraine is sophistry only someone whose brain is totally fried by Bolshevik/Russian propaganda can accept.
The term as it exists in normal (not Bolshevik) discourse includes Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
I use the plain meanings of "imperialism" and "colonialism". You seemed to be denying that Russia, like America, grew through colonization, though perhaps I misunderstood. I'm aware that imperialism & colonialism predate liberalism by millennia, so I'm not quite sure what you're referring to by "rabid liberalism".
Leaving insane Soviet propaganda aside, imperialism doesn't necessarily have anything to do with America. Objectively speaking, Russia has committed imperialism just like America has. People who aren't communist have always understood this, & western "liberals" have a long history of collaboration & sympathizing with Soviet imperialism. Imperialism is not merely when America exists, but when one country dominates or invades another. Russia supporters are just like Western "liberals" when they scream about "American imperialism" while ignoring imperialism of other nations, & label everyone who disagrees with them "fascist". Tell me, how exactly is it "fascistic demonization" to acknowledge the fact that Russia invading another country?
I'm not crying about it, just pointing out the obvious fact that both America & Russia gained land by colonization. How exactly do you define "liberal", & why do you assume that I am one?
What exactly is colonialism if it doesn't include Russia's conquest & settlement of Siberia? I acknowledge a country invading another & annexing it's land to be imperialism, & sending colonists to settle such imperial domains as an assertion of sovereignty to be colonialism. Denying that invading & annexing part of another country because they used to be part of your empire is imperialism, & mystically reinterpreting such acts to be "anti-imperialism", is an example of changing the meaning of words to suit your ideology.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
We already established what imperialism is. Feel free to use the word "imperialism" as liberally as you want, but anyone with a brain can see how nonsensical that is. Every country in history "expands its borders through force". So in your mind every country is imperialist. That is why your definition is pure nonsense.
There are no plain meanings of those words, those are completely scholarly terms. No average joe ever talked about imperialism or colonialism.
Colonization and colonialism are not the same thing. That's why they're two different words. By rabid liberalism I was talking about your behavior and the behavior of other liberals in the present day. You are blinded by your liberal ideology, which is at odds with the real world. So in your mental struggle you're forced to dive deeper and deeper into nonsense. It's like schizophrenia basically.
mistersupersago@reddit
Hey Expert-Scientist-940. You are EXTREMELY dumb. Sincerely, a Ukrainian
sourceenginelover@reddit
Russia is not anti-imperialist, it is not opposing imperialism, it is advancing its OWN imperialism. This slop you've written has nothing to do with Marxism.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Ok liberal
Read some Lenin, liberal
Read anything, liberal
Don't take the name of Marxism in your dirty mouth, liberal
sourceenginelover@reddit
anti-intellectualism is not something to pride yourself on
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Pol Pot knew how to deal with intellectuals
butterdrinker@reddit
Russia invading other countries purely for ideological reasons (Georgia, Ucraine, Moldova, Japan) isn't imperialism?
An anti imperialist would support Ucraine as its fighting against an invader
sourceenginelover@reddit
Russia is imperialist, however Marxists are not concerned with which country is invading and who started which war. What matters is class analysis.
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
It is !thats why they also condem russia in the same level the only diffrence is that we dont send money to the russians anyway The party is strictly nutural and against all governments of the 21th centruy that it sees as imperialist
butterdrinker@reddit
Idk, 60% of the gas imports in Greece are from Russia, that's enough of money sent to them every day
Shouldn't these Greek Marxists also boycott the gas pipelines in the same way the are stopping these trucks?
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
Unlike guns witch dont help civilians gas does a lot if they did that the price of gas would skyrocket and the working class will put all the blame on them Its not worth it
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
True, Greek Marxists aren't principled anti-imperialists, to their own detriment
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
There is no ideological background to any of those conflicts - those events are strictly realpolitik. Russia demanding security for itself has nothing to do with ideology. BUT, even if there was an ideological motivation (like nationalism or something else), it still wouldn't be imperialism. Only financial hegemony and oligarchy is imperialist.
Also I didn't know Russia invaded Japan or Moldova? When did that happen?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Learn your history better. Oh I forgort, uncle Vladimir has rewritten the history books. Go study Japanese history about the Kurill Island and SOuth Sakhalin. GO read about how Gorbatjov attacked Moldova in the 90s.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
That was the USSR, not Russia. And those areas were ceded as a result of WW2. So your logic is, not only is it wrong for Russia to take territory when defending against NATO, amazingly it's also wrong to take territories when defending against the Axis?
You go read it dummy. Gorbachev was against Pridnestrovie. Pridnestrovie was a completely organic development of self-determination.
butterdrinker@reddit
So you're saying Russia should still control Eastern Germany, Eastern Berlin, Poland, the batics, Ucraine and other territories just because they "won" WW2?
Yes, it's wrong. Otherwise, the USA would have militarily occupied half of Europe like the Soviets did. Installing a few military bases is vastly different from stationing soldiers on every street of every city in a country. And if you're about to say, "but NATO did this..."—NATO bases are built with agreements between sovereign nations, not through forceful military occupation.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
No, I am saying that Russia should, and will, control everything from Vladivostok to Lisbon.
Are you implying it didn't? Utterly delusional. 90% of Europe is presently under American occupation.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Russian Empire, USSR and Russian federation are the different names of one nation, dummy.
Go read again, about the Transistrian War.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Ok, let's see what wikipedia says:
Interesting.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Just like Putin invaded Georgiaand Ukraine twice.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Learn to read fool
butterdrinker@reddit
Russia actions are ' imperialist' in nature, because they WISH they were as powerful as the 'empire' of USA or China.
pydry@reddit
The Ukrainian government was offered a choice of siding with a rival empire or remaining neutral. Thus it turned into an imperial turf war that sacrificed a lot of Ukrainian lives.
An imperialist would support throwing more fuel on that fire.
Every-Artist-35@reddit
God damn you made me stop my souvlaki with your comment.
So then USA is the only imperialist country in the world. Communist China with the annexation of Tibet is not. India annexing Nepali lands is not. Russia invading and annexing multiple states is not.
Your logic is having a blindfold on and seeing reality completely distorted.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Yep. Only the US fits the criteria for imperialism - as it's described by scholarly consensus. You're free to use the nonsensical reddit definition if you want, where imperialism simply means "a big country", but imperialism is still something that is clearly defined.
How can you annex your own land? It's like saying Greece annexed Corfu from Germany and Italy, and that makes it imperialist. Zero logic.
That was British imperialism.
What makes it fascist? Fascism is a strictly western, imperialist phenomena. Thus NATO can accurately be described as a fascist military occupation force.
Historically or presently? Since imperialism is strictly a modern, capitalist phenomena, it can not be applied to something that happened a 1000 years ago in a different set of circumstances. Presently, some forms of "Arab religious expansionism" can be described as imperialist. For example, ISIS and the Arab spring were arms of American imperialism, Wahhabism was an arm of British imperialism, inherited by the Americans, etc.
While Eastern Germany and Eastern Europe were thoroughly denazified by the USSR following WW2 (much like Ukraine is being now), the Nazi brass of Western Germany received the highest military positions in NATO and governmental positions in BRD. Meanwhile the remnants of Nazi units and collaborationists in Eastern Europe (like the banderites) were recruited covertly to fight the Soviets from the inside. Nazi intelligence, military, science, leadership, ideology, doctrine - and overall worldview - was all inherited by America post WW2.
It's hardly a coincidence that the core of the Ukrainian military today is formed by neonazi terrorists.
StKilda20@reddit
Tibet was never a part of China before 1950….
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
It was continuously a part of china since the 1200s. Of course, you can always cherry pick some 5 year long civil war period and say "see, it wasn't always a part of China!". No wonder the west is worldwide known as "the empire of lies" when this is what your ideology tells you,
StKilda20@reddit
Not even the CCP tries making this claim.
In the 1200’s Tibet was a vassal under the Yuan who were Mongols and not Chinese. They purposely kept and administered Tibet separately from China. This was for 100 years.
Tibet was then independent for 300 years during the Ming.
Tibet was then a vassal under the Qing for about 200 years. The Qing were Manchus and not Chinese. Like the Yuan, the Manchus purposefully kept and administered Tibet separately from China.
Tibet was then Independent for about 40 years when the Qing fell.
Overall, Tibet has been independent for about 1,650 years, vassal for 300 years, under Chinese rule for 70 years.
Who’s cherry picking here?
Might want to self reflect on whose ideology goes against history and who blindly follows one.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
It's not a claim, it's a historical fact. It's astounding how you try to revise history just try and to make it conform to your ideology.
Why would they need to? To justify themselves to dirty hippies still shouting 70 year old slogans, thinking they're doing something for a long dead cause? No one gives a shit about Tibet, except fringe fanatic liberals like yourself.
It's a universal historical concensus that Yuan were Chinese. They became Chinese once they styled themselves as Chinese emperors. Claiming that China under the Yuan dynasty wasn't China is absurd.
A separate administrative division of a Chinese dynasty doesn't change the fact that Tibet was a part of China in this period - ruled by emperors of China.
No, it was highly autonomous, still ruled by Chinese emperors.
Idiot.
Every-Artist-35@reddit
How can you annex your own land? It's like saying Greece annexed Corfu from Germany and Italy, and that makes it imperialist. Zero logic.
Ι will analyze the rest but this is the more pronounced bananas statement i have seen. Tibet was never china's land, the qing dynasty were the first chinese (1700) who invaded and conquered the region. Since then they tried to keep grasp and of the region, which only finally got under their control at 1950 by the people's party. With many deaths, oppression and cultural destruction down thier path.
Tibet was never chinese, not the region and nor its people, china is merely the dictator-invader-imperialist here.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Even if that was true (it's not - the Yuan dynasty ruled Tibet as well - Tibet has been Chinese for almost a 1000 years) you're still saying "China has ruled Tibet for 300 years". That's older than your whole country.
Which is exactly what my point is - your argument has no basis in reality, and hinges solely on moralizing and whining about history - which you don't have the capabilities to understand. You can make the same case for every single country in existence, because you can always go back in time more and claim "this land used to be xy, you're just occupiers". Until you go back to worms, and proclaim "worms are the sole rulers of the Earth". Idiocy. You're like a child trying to understand advanced mathematics. Stay in your lane, please.
kerelberel@reddit
Russia is just as imperialist, see Georgia, Moldavia, Ukraine. And Iran basically turned Lebanon, Syria and Yemen into proxy states.
Out of all the big boys on the street, choosing to side with or sympathize with Russia or Iran is just so dumb.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
When Marxists talk about imperialism, they're talking about something very specific. You should keep in mind that it was Marxists who first theorized about imperialism, and that every single theory on imperialism relies in essence on Marxism. So the (let's call it colloquial) definition where it's simplified to be imperialism=big country (and big country attack small country=imperialist aggression) is fairly meaningless. Beyond this "reddit definition", I am not even aware of any definitions or theories of imperialism that aren't Marxist.
Imperialism is a development of capitalism, and it's used to describe an empire striving for financial hegemony and oligarchy. It has nothing to do with nationalism or religion or any of that. This presently only describes the US Empire (the project of globalism is the clearest manifestation of this). So the fact that Russia is fighting the hegemony of the US Empire makes Russia anti-imperialist, not imperialist. If Russia, like America, had designs to rule the world by establishing monopolies and financial cartels, then it would be imperialist. But it's not. The fact that Russia (or Iran) is reestablishing itself as an independent civilization is anything but imperialism.
Every-Artist-35@reddit
Russia is exactly by Marx the definiton of imperialism. Its not reestablishing itself, since Russia, the Russian people or the Russian entity if you want, has been in its place for a very long time. From the czars until now, they are consistently trying to be an empire striving for financial hegemony and oligarchy.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Russian imperialism was overthrown in 1917. Explain to me how presently Russia is "striving for financial hegemony and oligarchy"?
Every-Artist-35@reddit
Yes it was overthrown in 1917, thats precisely why Russia had active expansionist war-driven practices from central-eastern europe to scandinavia to caucasus and central east Asia during the whole of the 1900's.
Present Russian policy is exactly that, a group of people striving for hegemony and oligarchy while big percentages of their population live in poverty or barely middle class.
Futski@reddit
It just says the theory might be piss poor if invading your neighbours and subjugating them to be under your domination isn't considered imperialism.
Russia is seeking to dominate the entire former Russian Empire's territory. That's imperialism.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
The Marxist theory of imperialism concretely describes historical political/economical developments. If you can't find the use of that, it sounds like you're just coping. Tell me what's the use of an abstract ideological "theory" that attempts to demonize natural political occurrences, such as larger states having more influence over their smaller neighbors? Sounds a lot like pointless moralizing to me?
Defending yourself from from NATO aggression can not be considered imperialism even in this new colloquial sense.
Futski@reddit
What are you even trying to say?
This is like the classic commie jargon word salad.
Aha, so Ukraine voluntarily joining NATO is imperialism, but Russia attacking Ukraine and putting them back under the Russian yoke is anti-imperialist.
There's nothing 'scientific' about this. Pretending that 'Marxism' is scientific, now that, that is indeed a massive cope.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Brush up on your reading comprehension. I will restate it in simpler terms for the "special" ones like yourself:
Marxist theory of imperialism is concrete and useful.
Reddit theory of imperialism is abstract and devoid of all substance.
You're openly admitting that you're a dummy
Yep - Russia preventing the expansion of an anti-Russian imperialist hegemony on it's borders if classic anti-imperialism.
Futski@reddit
Ar what exactly?
And where does the Ukrainians come in here? They don't get a say?
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Describing the world and the historical processes taking place.
They had their say when they decided to pursue anti-Russian positions internally and geopolitically. It's hard to play surprised when a response to that is formed. If you choose war, don't be surprised when war comes to you. At best you might make the case that they were naive when they made this choice, because they were under the misguided impression that America and Europe will protect them. But that's hardly the fault of the Russians.
If you're so concerned about Ukrainians and their say, why aren't/weren't you playing the advocate of the citizens of Donbas who valiantly fought off the fascist butchers for 10 years before Putin finally grew some balls and brains?
Futski@reddit
How good is it at making predictions?
If you have a scientific model, you can use it to predict events that have not yet taken place. Anybody capable of opening a screw top jar can curve fit past events.
Given how the inevitable fall of capitalism has been predicted to be just around the corner due to xyz factors, ever since Marx was alive, it begins to sound less like science and more like religious eschatology preaching about the end of days and the coming rapture of the righteous.
Ah so obviously Russia had to invade them and kill them. Does the same apply to Kosovo, Bosnia or Croatia? Were the Serbs right in attacking both?
What about Cuba? Would the Americans be justified in their blockade, or even invading them and overthrowing the anti-american government?
Or is it only Russian imperialism that you choose to be willingly blind of?
Please mention a few of these treaties. Since there are numerous, it should be an easy thing to come with examples.
Astounding levels of victim blaming here.
Ahhh, I guess the Ukrainians have Nazi biolabs too?
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Very good.
Capitalism has already fallen, in the exact manner Marxists predicted it will. Even non Marxist economists acknowledge that there is no capitalism anymore. The US-centered monetary imperialism effectively killed capitalism, when the fiat dollar (created mainly to finance US global military spending) became the world’s monetary base. Fiat dollar credit made possible the bubble economy after 1980, and its substage of casino capitalism. These economically radioactive decay stages resolved into debt deflation after 2008, and are now settling into a leaden debt peonage and the austerity of neo-serfdom.
The end product of today’s Western capitalism is a neo-rentier economy - precisely what industrial capitalism and classical economists set out to replace during the Progressive Era from the late 19th to early 20th century. Capitalism was all about growth, the neo-feudalism the west has today is the precise opposite of this: it demands economic shrinkage - a dynamic that is the opposite of industrial capitalism’s original impulse. The “miracle of compound interest,” reinforced now by fiat credit creation, is cannibalizing industrial capital as well as the returns to labor.
You don't live in capitalism, you live in a socialism for the rich.
War is nothing more than an extension of politics. Yes, when Ukraine and the west refused diplomacy and broke numerous treaties, war became unavoidable.
This is exactly what I'm talking about. In your mind, the NATO aggression of Yugoslavia is perverted to mean "Serbs attacking Kosovo etc."
Minsk I, Minsk II, the agreement not to expand NATO "one inch east" after German reunification.
Astounding levels of preachy moralism here.
They do.
Futski@reddit
Ahh okay, you seem like a terminal case.
Enjoy the frustration that your prefered system will never succeed.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Already succeeded. While the western world is in full collapse, China is prospering and ushering in a new world.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Any more Russian propeganda?
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Where are you from?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Not from Bosnia
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Marxism is clownshow as humanity is to stupid to make it work.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
That's like saying "math is a clownshow humanity is too stupid to make it work"
Marxism has already proved itself as the only viable path, not sure what you think needs to be "made to work"
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Where did it work? How many million lives did it take?
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
The USSR, China, and so on
Zero
That's western neo-feudalism
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
USSR really turned out great. Its fascist today. China is embraced kapitalism. Only their leadership is communist.
Never heared of the millions of people who died as result of the Bolsjwik revolution in the 1910s-early 1920s? Never heared of the classes that were put in the gulags to die? About Stalins terror and purges? About dekullaksation? About ethnic mimnorities being killed? About them being upheaveled and put in inhospitable lands? Man made famins (including what the Ukrainians call Holodymor)?
Mao's clown actions alone beated the Russian 20th century deathtoll records.
The wealth in both countries is restricted to a small group op people.
Really your Marxist paradises. Any more fairy tales? Dont bother, you are bsing around. Cuba and Venezuala are the most communist countries in the world.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
Ah, you're dutch. Sorry, I don't talk to dutch "people"
jschundpeter@reddit
Very scientific not to realize that Russia is an imperial power.
Expert-Scientist-940@reddit
It's not.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Very scientific to be an expert in spreading Russian misinformation.
Montreal4life@reddit
username checkouts
SamiTheAnxiousBean@reddit
very much r/iamverysmart vibes from this one
Montreal4life@reddit
just so we're clear, I agree with the poster
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
Please don't tell me you're one of them
No_Conference8569@reddit
Typical Greek thing. Leftist support Russia and rightists support Putin.
Finaltryer@reddit
They dont, they hate nato
Infamous_Touch2339@reddit
As Right winged Greek that served my country i can tell you that in the Greek army we do not think Ukrainians should win nor we want to give support since we know the Azov battalion is filled with crazy Austrian painter people who massacre their own people and soldiers my friend was in Ukraine providing training he was always telling me that the war is a massacre and innocent poorly trained soldiers are left on the front lines as meat shields
GoHardLive@reddit
If the ammunition was heading for the Russian army they wouldn't do anything
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
They would have you read any of the articles of the party ? Ofc not What dont you dont understand of denouncing the nato AND the russia-china alliance This is pure misinformation
GoHardLive@reddit
Why didn't they burn any Russian flags when Russia invaded Ukraine? If USA straight-up invaded a sovereign country like that they would have gone apeshit
og_toe@reddit
because burning flags does literally nothing? what purpose does it serve? protesting ammunition is a direct action, we want ukraine to sit down with russia and figure something out. both parties need to stop and get to an agreement
Returntomonke21@reddit
Is this why you are burning American flags every year for no reason? The above question still stands despite your pathetic attempt at gaslighting
og_toe@reddit
i don’t even live i greece i don’t know what this is for bro, u don’t have to be mad at me, i’m not burning shit
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
The party literally had a convention were it denounced every single leftist party that supported the invasion it cut ties with the russian communist party and the last years in their youth festivals calls young ukrainians and young russians to show that they have nothing to divide unlike their imperialist governments
nickkamenev@reddit
If my grandma had wheels, she would be a car.
amitym@reddit
Paid Under the Table to Instigate Nonsense.
spider623@reddit
russia brain rot, its called communism
170505210@reddit
You are asking why leftist dont like NATO.
Lmao.
levenspiel_s@reddit
I think more relevant question is: why do the leftists communists etc support Russia? I am honestly baffled.
I consider myself leftist, and fuck Putin's Russia.
Fotaekis21@reddit
It is not out of support for Putin but due to hatred for NATO. Many leftists, including myself, do not like Putin either.
laveol@reddit
But Ukraine is not in NATO. This makes no sense.
Fotaekis21@reddit
Yes, not yet, but Ukraine has the full support of NATO. NATO wants Ukraine to join NATO by offering it defence in exchange for the West exploiting its mineral wealth.
The Greek leftists have no particular issue with the Ukrainian people and most of them do not support Putin. The big masses of leftists support the idea that Greece should not help NATO (and Ukraine at the same time) and are generally against war (neither for Ukraine nor for Russia). You will tell me that this favours Russia as a greater power and you are right, but the Greek leftists believe that Greece's position in such a war should be against NATO (of course it is different from leftist to leftist but this the big picture).
TruncatedTrunk@reddit
Thanks for this answer. That makes things clearer
7_11_Nation_Army@reddit
If you support the idea that you shouldn't help the victim, that's literally what supporting the war means.
90daysismytherapy@reddit
why do greek leftist think nato is a problem for them?
Fotaekis21@reddit
MartinBP@reddit
Fuck everyone who believes this. Every single one.
Fotaekis21@reddit
i don't believe that russia wants world peace above its own interests i'm just saying that NATO is no exception and its stance is not helping to achieve peace. On the contrary, it escalates tension. Moreover, it invokes world peace at every turn.
Also, be careful how you express yourself.
EpicStan123@reddit
NATO expanded eastward BECAUSE of Russia's Neo-Imperialistic Revanchist fever dreams. If Russia wasn't a security threat for Eastern European countries, then NATO would've never expanded Eastward.
Fotaekis21@reddit
Nato has expanded into Eastern Europe because its constituent countries want the mineral wealth of those countries. Also Nato, which is largely led by America, is trying to expand into eastern territories to weaken Russia's influence. Certainly Russia is not the state that strengthens peace, but as I said, neither does NATO. On the contrary, we have seen many times that it creates or escalates wars in the name of "peace" and as a result, by coincidence, it always comes out the winner.
90daysismytherapy@reddit
I mean, if you look at factors for positive quality of life, every Nato country has exponentially improved over the last few decades in eastern europe compared to unaligned or Russia specific alignment.
It seems like a mutual attraction between countries like Poland and d Ukraine with western markets.
And the whole Russian/Soviet Occupation and mass killings over the last 80 odd years.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Dont forget the former Warschaupact countries were robbed poor. They were looted so much, that oustide of Berlin, there is still a disparety between former WEst-Germany and former East-Germany.
90daysismytherapy@reddit
Its pretty wild the discrepancy between East Germany and West. Soviets were like, ya we took that invasion personally.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
The soviets showcased similar attitudes in whole of central Europe aswell.
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
România and Bulgaria willingly chose to be part of NATO and the EU Unlike communism, which was forced upon the countries by the Soviet Union.
Futski@reddit
I swear, these people look at the shitshow that happened to the north of Greece between 1945 and 1991 and feel sad they were left out, lol.
No_Confusion5016@reddit
Ok let's talk about the Greek Civil war if you want 40k of civilians were deported and killed just because they were not fucking Greeks that was what the Militaristic regime backed by the English and the US did they dropped phosphorus bombs on civilian homes to fucking kill them
Futski@reddit
Yes, and the socialist regimes across the Balkans and Eastern Europe of course never deported or killed any civilians.
No_Confusion5016@reddit
Well not in eastern Europe if you exclude USSR
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
I give the same statement each time: if you think NATO is bad and love Russia so much, go to Russia then. 🤷♂️ otherwise, shut up.
Old-Bodybuilder2178@reddit
Did you hate Romania?
Thefirstredditor12@reddit
?
Countries ask to join nato,they are not forced or manipulated to do so.
A country joining nato does not give up mineral wealth or anything like that what are you on about?
Look at Russia's immediate neighbours and you understand.
Russia does a good job for nato recruitment,see finland and sweden.
Fotaekis21@reddit
When I was talking about mineral wealth i was talking about Ukraine mainly, which NATO taking advantage of its difficult position with russia, to exploit its mineral wealth through agreements then. More powerful countries that are in the NATO are demonstrating with their stance the imperialism statement I made above.
vlajko456@reddit
Glad to see someone here that has a brain and thinks clearly. I would like to add that NATO is a tool for the western oligarchs that want not just mineral wealth of Ukraine but also fertile soil, gold, ukraininan budget, public companies, interest on banking loans, the business of rebuilding Ukraine after the war, selling of weapons.... Those documents that were signed by ukrainians and the west are kept a secret for a reason. And none of these bots ask who is gonna pay for it all after the wars ends and that so called "aid" is not for free. Not to mention the sad puppet Zelensky ......
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
It’s about what Ukrainians want, not your conspiracy theories. Ukrainians want to join the EU and NATO of their own free will. Do you see the difference between how the EU acts (hold a democratic vote) vs. how Russia acts (bombing things to smithereens).
vlajko456@reddit
Interesting how their wants changed from neutral to pro EU/ NATO after the "democratic" que (that is the eu way like you say) and when Victoria Nuland hand picked the staff of their new government (also democracy at its finest). Also how many weapons and instructors did the democratic EU and NATO supply Ukraine from signing Minsk peace accords to 22'? How many of those weapons ended up in neo-naci battalions Azov, Aidar ect.... ?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
More Russian propeganda. Victoria Nuland was trying to save Yanokovich but failed. Just like Bush tried to keep Ukraine in Russian hands when he was president in 91, but Ukraine chose freedom.
vlajko456@reddit
Sure if nafo said so who am i to disagree am i right ?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
I'm not nafo. I am European.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Its nice to project the Russian plans for Ukraine, on NATO countries. You probably are a Serbijan. Maybe you can join the RUssian military. They are hiring.
vlajko456@reddit
Thanks for the information i also heard the ukrainians are hiring maybe you should go and kick russian ass. I am sure that when they see you on the front they would retreat to Siberia.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
I dont think they will retreat pass the Ural mountains. Siberia will be Chinese soon lol.
vlajko456@reddit
It will be nafo all of it soon. Keep the cope up buddy and dont let anyone tell you otherwise.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
I'm not nafo buddy.
Ok-Source6533@reddit
Well it’s not you that’s for sure. Russia started a war by invading Ukraine and you think Russia did it to give NATO countries mineral wealth and construction contracts? Give your head a wobble.
vlajko456@reddit
So did NATO attack Yugoslavia in 99' and occupied Kosovo. And guess what is Kosovo rich in .... Give your head a wobble buddy.
Ok-Source6533@reddit
I remember that. I remember the mass graves, the gathering of civilians and the mass murders. The piles of bodies. Everyone was glad when NATO stopped the mass murders. Only the ones responsible for the murders would think what NATO did a bad thing. NATO are peacekeepers there. They don’t mine minerals. The operation derives its mandate from United Nations Security Council Resolution 1244 (1999) and the Military-Technical Agreement between NATO, the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia.
vlajko456@reddit
Yea i heard especially for those "civilians" that were wearing military clothes and attacking the police, army and other civilians. Not like their leaders are in a prison or anything today ..... Oh wait never mind.
Look into where are the big mines located in Kosovo, how the territory is divided by NATO and what companies have the exploitation rights and of course who owns those companies. Do your own research.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
False premiss. Western companies dont invest in countries that are at risk to be attacked. Thats as stpud as burning money. Only foreign entity that is extracting Ukrainian minerals are the Russian companies in the occupied territories.
Besides NATO had a good position with Russia, Remember who before 2022were Russia's best oil and gas customers?
Besides the only true imperialist contry in Europe is RUssia.
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
That’s a conspiracy you’re parroting. And do you think if Ukraine were annexed by Russia, Russia wouldn’t extract all of Ukraine’s minerals?
kittyriti@reddit
Don't try to explain it to them. They refuse to accept that NATO only exist to create wars by bringing peace to countries that are rich with oil, minerals, or a really good strategic position.
We see a genocide going on in Gaza, fully supported by NATO, and all people talk about is how bad Russia is for starting a war in Ukraine.
Before the war in Ukraine, US started buying out Ukraine, basically making it their own country. Even now much of the help that Ukraine receives is probably stolen by their corrupt government.
I am not approving the actions that Russia takes, as each normal person I hate wars and conflicts, but we all know that NATO's primary role is creating conflicts, directly or indirectly, usually supporting both sides of the war by selling them weapons, to support the U.S. arms factories.
pinkyelloworange@reddit
I will grant it to you that NATO has done this the one time that the US invoked article 5. But that’s not because NATO allies give a fuck about the US’s imperialist projects. They just don’t like Russia’s imperialist projects. I mean we really dislike them because we’re part of those ambitions. And now when it seems like the US might need to do the one thing that we want it to do the US seems like it’s about to chicken out. I honestly think that there’s so much “America bad” here. Okay we agree “America bad”. Are we just meant to let Ukraine get invaded because “America bad”? The genocide in Gaza doesn’t receive NATO military support. NATO countries are allies of Israel and the US and give lip service but even then look at Spain and Ireland and Turkey.
In a roundabout way you are right that NATO is bad for us because I don’t like that we depend so much on the US for our defense. But realistically small countries will need to depend on some sort of alliance. If not even our European neighbors give a crap about us smaller countries are absolutely doomed to getting swallowed up by bigger powers. In the context of a aggressive and imperialist superpowers it is literally impossible for small countries to survive without a military alliance (examples of such countries getting screwed due to lack of miliary alliance are plenty. Ukraine is one). Name me one small country that is doing fine without being part of some alliance. I literally don’t think that a single example exists.
Thefirstredditor12@reddit
Russia not having plans to make ukraine a puppet state and annexing their land,could have easily prevented Ukraine having aspirations to join nato,along with multiple other countries.
In fact almost all countries that joined nato in eastern eu are in it because of fear of Russia.
So trying draw parallels to nato and russia seems wild and dishonest.
EpicStan123@reddit
NATO acts as deterrent to Russian military action in the region, and Russia single handedly justified NATO's existence.
Georgia didn't align with NATO, tried to leave Russia's sphere of influence and got invaded.(twice)
Ukraine, same deal.
Moldova, same deal.
The only non-Western Aligned Eastern European country that didn't get invaded directly is Belarus and that's because they're not leaving Russia's sphere of influence.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Even stronger, Belarus wil become part of the RUssian federation, when Lukashenko dies I think. They has some kind of treaty between those countries.
No_Confusion5016@reddit
What expansion Russia until 2008 didn't expand an inch westward and if you bring up Chechnya you're crazy because you're supporting a mujahidinist terrorist organisation that took over Chechnya.
Futski@reddit
Easy for you to say when there are several countries between you and Russia.
Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania would simply not exist anymore if it wasn't for NATO.
Fotaekis21@reddit
that doesn't justify NATO's stance
pinkyelloworange@reddit
Amen Bulgarian brother. Like eastern European people don’t have agency or desires or wishes that matter, it’s all about the big powers. Fuck the fact that we ourselves want protection from Russia.
kalispetros@reddit
Yes we should have let Serbs continue with their ethnic cleansing because of Russia's and China's veto in the UN
No_Confusion5016@reddit
Only that there wasnt an ethnic cleansing and the KLA was the first to attack the army of Yugoslavia at that time
Ritzasone@reddit
No, you shouldn't, but bombing civilians trains hospitals is not the answer. One evil doesn't justify another.
90daysismytherapy@reddit
what does that have to do with Greek leftist?
They don’t like Alliances?
Is Greece in the Global South? Is Russia not an imperialist power?
Where Greek Leftist pro Serbia domination in the 90s and early 2000s?
LesterNygaard_@reddit
Greek leftists are just crazy and mentally stuck in the stupid antiimperialist patterns of the 80s (which were wrong at that time already).
AstartesFanboy@reddit
Good to know eastern imperialism is a ok though because it’s not western lol. Real good logic for blocking support for them heh
AllAlongTheParthenon@reddit
In the minds of tue people who say this crap, Russia has a right to determine what a sovereign nation decides to do for its security.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
And Serbia was not committing war crimes in the 90s? Jesus Christ, your statements are crazy.
AnalysisQuiet8807@reddit
Oh its your local serb hating “romanian in United States”
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
Don’t hate Serbs, but it’s crazy to pretend that you guys were not doing war crimes in the 1990s.
AnalysisQuiet8807@reddit
Yeah you do mate, I’ve noticed you here mate any anti serb post you’re there
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
There is too much anti West propaganda that some Serbian posters push. Doesn’t mean I hate Serbs.
pr0metheusssss@reddit
Lel, NATO dropped napalm bombs on the Greek leftists during the civil war.
It’s like asking “why do Serbians think nato is a problem for them”?
No_Confusion5016@reddit
Finally somebody talked about this. And I just have to say that 15-20k of the leftist soldiers were "Slavo Macedonians" that after the war were fucking deported and killed while the others that stayed were oppressed and are being oppressed till this day.
90daysismytherapy@reddit
Are you equating Serbs committing ethic cleansing to Greek leftist in general?
pr0metheusssss@reddit
No, I gave you the Balkan version of “why cats don’t like dogs”.
90daysismytherapy@reddit
ya i’m from familiar with the balkans, that would have made sense if you said croats or muslims instead if nato.
I find the rest pertinent to about 30 years ago and before, but since the early 2000s Russia has been far more destructive to the pertinent regions.
cosmicdicer@reddit
What NATO? It wasn't even founded when general Papagos who actually used them on the leftists
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
The Ukrainian people choose to fight against Russia and accept the West’s financial help. They had an orange revolution to free themselves of Russian influence. That’s why Putin got pissed and invaded.
Look at the economic difference between Romania and Serbia as one country is in the EU, and the other is not.
geniuslogitech@reddit
CIA revolution was 8 years before Putin invaded in 2014
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
What CIA revolution? That’s crazy.
geniuslogitech@reddit
one that put USA puppet government under Петро Порошенко into power
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
Lol. Ok. Keep believing conspiracy theories.
No_Confusion5016@reddit
But it's not a conspiracy theory because at the protests there were senior US politicians that were "encouraging" the Ukrainian people to stand up to "oppression". I guess you didn't study that part of the last 10 years
geniuslogitech@reddit
fact is Zelensky was elected, Poroshenko was put there, that's why USA is not helping Zelensky, just Biden's son using Ukraine to wash dirty money
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
Last time I checked, it was Russia that bombs hospitals, steals tens of thousands of Ukrainian children from their patents, and sexually assaults and kills Ukrainian civilians.
I don’t know what conspiracy theories you have consumed, but they’re crazy.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
Brother with all respect, there is no point comparing Romania which entered eu to Serbia which did not. Serbia had wars, sanctions, total economic collapse. Which Romania didn't have. Plus Romania has sea access and natural gas reserves. Even if Serbia didn't have problems during 90' and somehow entered EU, it would be still behind Romania.
fk_censors@reddit
Romania was the poorest of its immediate neighbors in 1989, it was a starving society. With capitalism, NATO protection, and EU ascension, it has surpassed all of its neighbors economically, it only took about 30 years. Recently it even overtook Hungary, which in the past was, in comparison, Western Europe. It has nothing to do with a single factor like sea access or natural resources, but instead stability and free markets, the only formula for success.
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
But it would be much more comparable to Romania now with EU accession.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
Not in this scale and not with sanctions. We had daily inflation 62%, daily! Today you get paycheck, tomorow you can't buy bubble gum with that money.
In 2000 you came out of post communism problems, we started getting out. Kudos to your nation how you managed to get out of all bad times. If we where bit smarter we should take Romania as example and follow those leads. But we are not 😁
Archaeopteryx11@reddit
I hope you guys do eventually decide to join the EU, but I see many Serbians shit on the EU on the daily even on Reddit. They say how great Putin is too lol.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
At this point in time and which we learned from history. When sh*t times like this comes, play dead. So i kinda support that we stay neutral as it gets. Till everyone calms down.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Find a Croat or Slovenian girl, marry her and live a life in the EU. Leave the chetniks behind, before they start a war with on of your non NATO neighbours as distractment for Putin's invasion.
Dry_Hyena_7029@reddit
But cetniks have good beard. Thats what girls like... 😔
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Grow a beard, its fashion. ALthough some look better cleanly shaven.
LesterNygaard_@reddit
Wow, such crazy mental gymnastics just to justify their resentment against the west.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
BS. Many countries in NATO don't want Ukraine joining them. One country that dissappraoves is enough. Fico of Slovakia already toldpublicly he will never allow Ukraine to join NATO as long as he is in power. And then there is Orban of Hungary, Putin's favorite saboteur.
Anasnoelle@reddit
Perfectly said, if you are asking why leftists dislike nato then you don’t know the history. Simple as that.
Queasy_Evidence_8237@reddit
So in other words they want Ukrainians to die because it soothes their spite over something that happened over half a century ago.
Romanoktonos@reddit
Just making stuff up. Nato is a defensive alliance with almost nothing to do with economics.
cartmanbrah117@reddit
lol, this is why leftists and rightists are both stupid. The center is closest to the truth. Imagine if USA left NATO, Greece would be rolled by Turkiye in just a few years. And Turkiye and all Turkic peoples would be genocided by Russia/China within the century, as they currently are in just Xinjiang, without America, Russia/China would finish their cleanse of all Turkic minority groups in their empires. With Turkiye being the final goal.
StamatisTzantopoulos@reddit
Well, Ukraine wants to join NATO more than NATO itself wants Ukraine to join NATO, if that gives you a clue on what's going on and who's right and wrong
TurnoverInside2067@reddit
But what's the play here?
Block shipments>Putin's time is made easier>Russia conquers Ukraine>Nothing happens for leftism
It's incoherent. Which, in its way, does make sense. Leftism is dead, there's no point in pursuing policies that appreciably improve the prospects for leftists gaining power - nothing does. It's just lashing out.
itisiminekikurac@reddit
Oh my sweet summer child
zeclem_@reddit
since when "america bad" squad ever made sense
inalibakma@reddit
Since America existed, because it has been committing atrocities since the day it was established
zeclem_@reddit
man i sure love checking peoples profiles before i try to write a proper response if they are sprouting some rslurred nonsense. it surely saves a lot of time.
and in this case its nice that i dont have to think about a response to an idiot who thinks current ukrainian regime is criminal because checks notes a past regime that the people of ukraine had to revolt to get rid of sent a miniscule amount of soldiers to help dubya in iraq.
fuck all the way off.
7_11_Nation_Army@reddit
So, they are getting Ukrainians killed to make a point. Fuck everyone who participates or is ok with that. Fuck them really, really hard. Pieces of garbage.
Hamster_S_Thompson@reddit
Why hatred for NATO? If it weren't for NATO turkey would steamroll you
pydry@reddit
Liberals usually arent able to distinguish hate for NATO and support for Russia.
It's similar to how supporters of the genocide in Gaza arent able to distinguish being against genocide and hatred for Jews.
levenspiel_s@reddit
I understand what you mean, but to me, here it looks like the protesters are unable to distinguish opposition to NATO and blind love for Russia.
If Ukraine were a girl, being attacked by her ex bf because after separation she's falling in love with her new acquaintance, you don't protest the girl, no matter who the new bf is. You don't block the rescue attempts.
Few_Organization4930@reddit
In your example, her new acquaitance was the one who played with the numbers and made her think he is better than the ex boyfriend, while in reality they are both the same.
Just search for the transcripts of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call to get an idea of the kind meddling I am talking about.
The girl never had a chance to get independed. The men in her life have been controlling her, one way or another.
pydry@reddit
Sounds like you didnt understand what I said at all.
Ukraine is a guy who got involved in a gang (NATO) and got shot by a rival gang (Russia) because of it.
Even though kids say that they join gangs foe protection, it's often safer to stay out of gangs.
levenspiel_s@reddit
The problem is that your analogy doesn't really work. Imagine this scenario in real life. Both gangs will treat you as interfering, not staying out.
This is ignoring the obvious pretensions of Russian gang, who has always threatened and actually harmed the little guy, and is just looking for an excuse to kill him. The little guy doesn't have many options. We have a saying in Turkish, "if you fall into the sea, you grab a snake"
Futski@reddit
Funnily enough opposition to the only thing ensuring that the Baltics and the rest of Eastern Europe suffer the same fate as Ukraine or Georgia, is indirect support of Russia.
I guess you have to be a socialist to not have the mental capacity to handle such thoughts though.
pydry@reddit
The only thing? Hilarious.
NATO is what got Ukraine and Georgia into those wars. All of the countries that didnt try to join the aggressive invasion-happy alliance didnt get attacked.
Futski@reddit
How come the rest of Eastern Europe that managed to join NATO in time didn't experience invasions, only the two nations that did the mistake of hovering in Russia's orbit.
Similarly, constitutionally neutral Moldova has had a Russian occupation on its land for over 30 years, despite being neutral and not a NATO member.
pinkyelloworange@reddit
Are you serious rn? This is some “but what was she wearing?” level of victim blaming. Ukraine literally surrendered its nuclear weapons if Russia promised to not invade. Russia didn’t like that Ukraine didn’t want to be in its political sphere of influence anymore. Look at Moldova. They are just barely struggling to get out of said sphere. Countries have a right to not want to be under Russian boot/political influence.
pydry@reddit
shrug kids that join violent gang get whacked. Just coz Timmy joined the crips and was fine doesnt mean that Johnny isnt going to die.
Obviously if you're a crip, you're going to insist that everybody is safer in your gang and that your gang never whacked anyone who didnt deserve it.
Libya, for example, was looking at your boss all funny and wearing a slutty dress and thats why your gang decided to rape her.
West-Rain5553@reddit
The fact that you refer to people who disagree with you "supporters of the genocide" -- the same people who experienced the biggest genocide in the history of the world -- makes kind of obvious that you hate Jews.
pydry@reddit
Oh wow you're doing a great job of proving my point.
West-Rain5553@reddit
"Mutual point-proving society, I see."
pydry@reddit
No, I have zero problems with Jews.
mathreviewer@reddit
i love you
fk_censors@reddit
You're the odd one, then. Most leftists, if they are intellectually consistent, would rejoice when the Red Army conquers more land and puts up Lenin statues and hammer and sickle banners. Russian control of Ukraine would likely lead to more central planning from Moscow and less capitalism and foreign investment.
levenspiel_s@reddit
That's the American's way of describing "left" :).
fk_censors@reddit
I'm European.
gataki96@reddit
They don't support Russia, they hate USA, EU and NATO. They blame them for the war in Ukraine. As far they are concerned, Ukraine is the victim of USA/EU/NATO not Russia.
markolosole@reddit
Those of us who are educated on lennin, don't. We don't exchange one imperialist power for the other.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
But Vladimir Putin rules his country like faild Austrian painter Adolf Hitler. You Marxist-Leninists supporting a fascist. Is this the horseshoe theory that became true?
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Amen brother/sister/non binary sibling.
I consider myself left aswell and fuck Putin's Russia.
Wolfesheud@reddit
The specifix mayor of Tyrnavos in picture and his political party (CP of Greece) that blocked the weapons do not support Putin. They find Russia side in the war equally imperialist and wrong. That doesn't mean they shouldnlet the weapons pass from their side. They just don't like the "lesser evil" point of view or pick imperialist sides.
glorychildthe@reddit
I don't know too much about leftists in Balkan countries but in the West, far leftists see America and anything related to its foreign policy as bad. They're very likely to fall for the NATO expansionism argument, and for them soverign nations democratically choosing to joing a defensive alliance is just as bad as a country doing expansionist warfare. In the west far-leftists are quite ignorant in general and they idealize communism, and this makes them be quite resentful to the countries of the Warsaw Pact and former USSR that had the revolutions to free themselves of the communist dictatorships. It is a purely ignorant ideological position to hold. For example look at the biggest politics streamer on twitch Hasan Piker, and look at how he talks about Polish people. It's blatant racism.
Anasnoelle@reddit
You can be against the war and see the actions of western countries being purely done for self benefit and acknowledge that Putin sucks.
31_hierophanto@reddit
Because of the legacy of the USSR. That's pretty much it.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
They hate Putin too cause he is a oligarch that rules a capitalist nation.
They just hate NATO more since a lot of online leftists are from the West and live in NATO countries and so it affects them the post and NATO is the strongest and most influential alliance in the world and so its the biggest target especially considering that NATO very much promotes neoliberalism which is the primary enemy of left wingers since the fascist regimes were destroyed by the Allied coalition during WW2.
MartinBP@reddit
It has less to do with "being affected by NATO" (whatever that means) and more with the fact that western leftists are mostly privileged middle class slactivists who can safely support Russia without having to worry about actually living under them.
whothdoesthcareth@reddit
No their one true core value is murica bad. Anything else is put into relation to that.
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
The Greek commie party aren't Western """leftists""" though.
Responsible_Lawyer_3@reddit
I dont like the people sith guns and bats even though theres some complete other guy who keeps beating me up but thats not the problem… jfc
whothdoesthcareth@reddit
They have one core principle: murica bad and thus anything it touches by association. No nuance just retardation. German left has also been russophiliac until that stupid part split off.
forfeckssssake@reddit
Because nato disregarded “not one-inch forward”. And took advantage of Russia’s weakness at the time. Which is fairplay
pr0metheusssss@reddit
To answer your question:
Communists in Greece have never supported Russia after 1991.
KKE specially (the Greek communist party) have lambasted and criticised Yeltsin and Putin from day 1, when the west was sucking their dicks. (I can link you the relevant articles and quotes, from the ‘90’s till now, in KKE’s official newspaper Rizospastis).
This idea that KKE supports Russia comes from rightwing boomers that think we’re in the 70’s.
SamiTheAnxiousBean@reddit
as a left leaning individual who is around leftist places....they seem to be almost in support of Ukraine, im more confused with what you have seen
luletino@reddit
Liberalism and especially neoliberalism are not leftist ideologies, they are center right or just right wing, you are just confused, politically illiterate.
GG-VP@reddit
Most mainstream communist parties in Europe get money from Moscow
Responsible_Lawyer_3@reddit
Truth
New-Statistician8053@reddit
Can someone explain to me, why both leftists and right wing hates NATO and more Putin friendly? Its just so bizarre.
fatbunyip@reddit
It really depends on the variety of leftist/right wing person.
In Greece, there are a lot of people who support "Orthodox" countries (hence support for Russia and Serbia etc). Then there are people who see the west (and by extension NATO) as imperialist. There are others who don't base their decisions on historical support of the Greek dictatorship. Some because of the perceived duplicity over Cyprus. Some because of western foreign policy they perceive favours Turkey. Some because they want Greece to have a stronger identity rather than align with western interests. Some support Russia as an extension of their dislike for western neo liberal economic policy (driven by the US).
The common thread is that Greece doesn't need the west and can form it own alliances (or generally be more independent and follow its own path). Which tbh, is laughable considering the absolute state of Greece the last few decades. It's a classic case of Greeks looking to blame everyone but themselves for their issues (which tbf, isn't isolated to Greeks). But it's easier to blame big bad West rather than admit your country is very weak and ultimately powerless given their security situation.
New-Statistician8053@reddit
ah ok, interesting, thanks for the explanation.
toobigtobeakitten@reddit
West is imperialistic capitalist piece of shit, Russia is the only one who opposes them
West has been destroyed by libtards and immigrant, Russia is the last bastion of white race and traditional values
And Russian propaganda is smart. It may look stupid and bizarre but smart at the same time. They don’t target some group of people, they try to work with everyone. Their domestic and foreign propaganda is also different - for Russian audience they just say blatant militaristic shit like “destroy khokhols, revive the russian empire, we are the supreme power” (I am kind of exaggerating, ofc, but it’s not that far from reality). But they know that the more intelligent western audience won’t buy this stuff, so they do more “gentle” approach, like “war is hell, and by funding Ukrainian defence you prolong the war!” or “War is hell, so we should come to negotiations!” (But the only negotiations they are open to are ones on their terms, hence de facto Ukraine’s capitulation) or “Russians commit war crimes, but look, Ukraine commits them too!” (Which, if is even true, shifts the focus of blame from the invader to the victim of invasion - because even if Ukraine committed some atrocities, they wouldn’t happen if Russia didn’t invade). So, as you can see, those two methods are completely different, but both pursue russian interests. Same with left and right wings - Russia just knows how to work with different types of people.
New-Statistician8053@reddit
Damn, thx for the explanation.
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit (OP)
a lot of leftists like NATO (social democrats)
SnooStories2399@reddit
Soc dems aren't leftists brotha
Responsible_Lawyer_3@reddit
“Leftism” like any tribalist clique, is bullshit.
Think for yourself. And that means realizing that marx was an entitled nepo baby rich kid fuckwad who never worked a day in his life and declared that “something does not have value because of others’ need for it, but intrinsically based on how long it took to make”
LOL!
170505210@reddit
I am absolutely sure that “left” in the Balkans means socialism
Economic7374@reddit
lol what
170505210@reddit
?
mistersupersago@reddit
Ah this must be the KKE Stalinist shit heads. They are not leftists, they are authoritarian grifters
ConsequenceWeekly827@reddit
As a albanian its funny when peoole find out just how cartoonishly evil greece is and marxist leninists too
elektronyk@reddit
Anti-NATO people are always from countries that are not threatened by Russia or that never suffered under Russian imperialism. Pathetic.
Few_Organization4930@reddit
Yup, they are just from a couty that was bombed by USA.
That's right.
sourceenginelover@reddit
eu sunt anti-NATO si sunt roman
Limp-Abbreviations54@reddit
Can any Greek tell me what these leftists, who as I’ve read seem to rally against Kosovo and Ukraine, think of Turkey and the Aegean island or Cyprus? Do they view Cyprus similar to Palestine situation? Or are they self hating ?
Few_Organization4930@reddit
As far as I know, regarding Cyprus they have stated it is an illegal occupation and the only solution they support is that of a single nation, without any outside interference, be it Greek or Turkish.
Unlike Greek right wingers, KKE has explained how the junta fueled hatred between Turkish and Greek residents in the years before the war and how USA ordered the Greek side to stay put and only offer token help, leaving Greek Cypriots to fight on their own.
Throughout the year, there are multiple talks, events, etc in support of the Cyprus, though in the end it's up to the Cypriot people themselves to solve the issue.
cosmicdicer@reddit
Self hating totally about cyprus. They actually have this model that people who protest about cyprus are far right wingers/nationalists. They don't iniciipate any kind of protest/commemoration about Cyprus but they have done so for Palestine and other global issues of the same caliber. Isn't it funny?
Every-Artist-35@reddit
Damn thats true. Never noticed that. KKE never ever protests for Cyprus. Crazy
AlegusChopChop@reddit
No wonder. Communists, along with monarchists, are the traitors of the country.
Infinite_Procedure98@reddit
I am a half-leftist, I love Greece, but Greek leftists are the reasons I turned my face off Greece. They are the worst woke-stalinist people I know. Today I can deal only with non-political Greeks (they are sweet). The Greek left is horrible. I supported Tsipras, and what good it gave Greece?
Few_Organization4930@reddit
So... you supported soc dems and you wonder how that went wrong?
Infinite_Procedure98@reddit
I am leftist in my own way, who often has nothing to do with what the other people of the left do. Sometimes my positions can be close to right or far right because I follow my own way, and sometimes I can go as left as no one has gone before. I can just see what left has become today is completely madness, intollerance and yeah, yeah: fascism. So whatever confidence I put in leftist, I was wrong. Most of them are little robots, they have no empathy, no emotional intelligence, just emotional anger. It took me SO long to discover that i find more common sense at the right. I can tell them "guys, I hate you less now".
manguardGr@reddit
Was Tsipras a leftist? 🤣
Infinite_Procedure98@reddit
At least in the beginning?
NoirMMI@reddit
I am a moderate lefty and love NATO. F*ck communists!
Prestigious-Oil-4914@reddit
Great discussion here, commenting so I can revisit later.
isyourbirthday@reddit
I'm not a leftist, but honestly thats the most based thing they did
Mucklord1453@reddit
Praise this holy and blessed move. The last time Greeks got involved in civil war in the north Black Sea, it cost them Asia Minor (when the Soviets got pissed at their intervention and gave arms to Ataturk).
architecTiger@reddit
And where did Greeks get the arms from, grew on olive trees?
Mucklord1453@reddit
They got them from their wartime allies, including Russia, before the Greeks decided to intervene in Ukraine and piss Russia off...
Greeks need to learn from their own history and not get involved in yet another civil war in Ukraine.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Unless you can proof Greek military being involved in battles, Greece didnt intervene.
There is no civil war in Ukraine.
Anymore Russian misinfomration?
Mucklord1453@reddit
You need proof Greece intervened in Russia at the end of World War One? Open a history book.
You don’t call the fighting in Donbas today a civil war? They have been in a state of rebellion since 2014. Hopefully soon they will be free from their oppressors in Kiev.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Are we talking about WW1 or 2024?
Mucklord1453@reddit
“Pretending”? Was the universal support among the natives of Crimea when Russia moved in also “pretending”?
It’s propaganda. When you don’t like them they are pretending. When you like them they are holy freedom fighters.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Crimean Taters are not exactly Russophile, given Stalin nearly exterminated them. Shouldn't you not matter about BLM, pro life or something? Dems attempt at a coup on Jan 6th?
architecTiger@reddit
Yes, it’s best for Greeks to not get involved in others wars. Last time they did that was encouraged by Brits mostly. Ataturk took advantage of rift between the allies to counter Brit supported Greek army.
8NkB8@reddit
During the war in Asia Minor? They went to war with the army of 1918, equipped with pre-war Austrian small arms and French artillery, and then supplemented with additional French artillery and small arms in 1917 after entering WWI. The Allies sent them nothing after the reorganization at the Macedonian Front.
architecTiger@reddit
The point I raised is, Greeks gets arms from others same as Turks at the time. He says Ataturk won the war because Russians gave arms to him.
Every-Artist-35@reddit
Amongs other crucial factors, yes
elektronyk@reddit
> Civil war
Pekamaan@reddit
Its reddit.. the biggest echochamber on the planet and it is curated as such
AtomicCenturion@reddit
There’s this idiotic unwavering cold war type of loyalty to moscow by the tankies, despite the current Kremlin being some sort of facist regime. Its the same in my country, the communists were the only ones talking shit about Ukraine in the first year of the invasion.
HumbleHat9882@reddit
They don't really hate Ukraine, they are incidentally against Ukraine because they are pro-dictators and thus pro-Putin.
Zandroe_@reddit
I don't know who these people are, but the KKE, at least, has been consistent on this conflict, despite their unfortunate Stalinist orientation. They've refused to join popular fronts with Russia-founded fascist parties for example.
But of course communists oppose militarism and workers dying for the interest of "their" capitalist state. This does not mean they support the other side, if they are consistent. Our perspective is not for Russian and Ukrainian workers to kill themselves to determine which rapacious group of capitalists will reap the spoils, but for Russian and Ukrainian workers to unite and smash both of "their" capitalist states,
Fit_Room_851@reddit
but what if the Russian workers start Killing the Ukrainian ones, are they not allowed to defend themselves?
Zandroe_@reddit
They are "allowed" to do whatever they want. But we oppose workers dying for capital and killing other workers; I don't think this is difficult to understand.
Futski@reddit
Okay, but whether you oppose it or not, the Ukrainians are currently dying.
You are just denying them the ability to protect themselves.
sourceenginelover@reddit
they are not "protecting themselves", they are protecting capital. the Ukrainian proxy war is against the interests of the workers of the world.
Futski@reddit
How's the weather in Tula?
og_toe@reddit
they wouldn’t need to protect themselves if the bourgeoisie didn’t tell the workers to attack. the russian people didn’t start this war, the oligarchs started it.
Zandroe_@reddit
Currently, Ukrainian and Russian workers are dying and killing each other, yes. We say this should not happen. Are we supposed to be the villains, here?
Futski@reddit
Okay, when this changes nothing, then what do you do?
No, just simply the ones who enable the villains.
Zandroe_@reddit
Well, first of all we're not singing Kumbaya. Our perspective is not a pacifist one; but a perspective for peace between nations and war between classes. For turning an imperialist war into civil war. And yes, we're not currently able to influence matters much (which makes all the outrage a bit strange, but there you have it). The solution to this is to organise, which of course is easier said than done. No one said this is easy.
What we will not do is completely ruin our credibility as an alternative to the bloody butchery of workers by cheering on one side.
Futski@reddit
What credibility lol?
Zandroe_@reddit
That's your response? "Lol" indeed.
Futski@reddit
Yeah.
You really have to elaborate on what credibility you believe your ideology has.
Zandroe_@reddit
Credibility as an alternative to the slaughter of workers in the interest of capital, but I don't expect a liberal warmonger to understand that. No matter. The point is what happens once the war ends and workers wake up from the chauvinist hysteria currently being peddled, to their mundane lives being ground down by "their own" state and "their own" capital, except now a lot of their friends are dead. It happened in Croatia. It will happen in Ukraine. And you ghouls will learn nothing and forget nothing for when the next senseless war starts.
Futski@reddit
This credible alternative hasn't amounted to anything concrete though.
So it's kind of like how homeopathy is a credible alternative to modern medicine.
Zandroe_@reddit
Is that what happened? Funny, I would think the treason of the social-democrats and the orgy of murder unleashed by social-democrats, liberals and nationalists had something to do with why we don't live in a communist world.
vlajko456@reddit
Has noone told you here that common sense and peace thoughts are forbidden ? Have you been taking your daily dose of media medications ? I would go see a reddit specialist for your condition if i were you.... Remember we all must think the same. War is good, peace bad.
pinkyelloworange@reddit
Issue is that they aren’t dying for capital. They are dying because Russia invaded and unfortunately most Russians truly do support the invasion at the moment. You may think whatever you want about Ukraine’s ruling class, okay they are no angels, but what are the Ukrainean ppl meant to do under this reality? Because Russian workers won’t organize to overthrow Putin or capitalism (that just won’t happen). So are they just meant to take it because their ruling class is bad?
If a guy comes into my house and tries to murder me am I not meant to defend myself because he’s working class and so am I? Am I meant to not take weapons from my current ruling class because they’re bad? Because that is literally what is happening to Ukraineans right now, in many cases quite literally. At least my ruling class (in this analogy) isn’t actively trying to shoot me which would end my life very quickly and immediately. Do you not really see how working class Ukraineans have an immediate and strong (to put it mildly) interest in defending themselves from Russian invaders rn? Do you not see how failure to do so is an existential threat?
People have invaded other groups of people since forever. Are we all just meant to not resist invasions until we can seize the means of production? It sounds like you are saying “class warfare is more important”. Okay, even if we agree, realistically and practically how is one even meant to engage in class warfare in this situation? (other than vague nebulous answers). Can you really not see that when Ukraineans are fighting Russian soldiers they are doing it to save their own ass? If they do not fight Russian capitalists take over. If they fight they have a chance to survive. Those are the two options.
sourceenginelover@reddit
Of course workers are dying for capital, on both sides. On the Russian side, to advance Russian imperialist interests and on the "Ukrainian" side to advance NATO imperialists interests and to protect the capital of Ukrainian oligarchs.
Marxists do not care which side started which war. The propaganda you're spewing is over 100 years old and was a staple of renegades such as Karl Kautsky, which advocated for "Defence of the Fatherland", which, in reality, meant the advancement of imperialist interests and the protection of capital. This was very heavily criticized by Lenin in works such as "Proletarian Revolution and The Renegade Kautsky". War is a continuation of policy by other means and in order to understand a war, one must analyze the policies preceding said war.
It's really funny to read what Marx allegedly believed and said from a liberal who has no clue what Marx actually advocated.
After the violent suppression and collapse of the Paris Commune in 1871, The Communist Manifesto received a new preface in which Marx acidly criticized and fought against "Democratic Socialism", advocated for workers taking up arms to fight the bourgeoisie and defend the advances they made. This is without even mentioning the immense difference between the material conditions of the 19th century in that region and the material conditions in 2024.
If you would have actually bothered to read what Marx wrote, you would see that he was against bourgeois moralism, sentimentalism, humanism and democracy as a principle (made abundantly clear in works such as The German Ideology and The Poverty of Philosophy).
You also made sure to sneak in a little bit about "human nature" ("people have invaded other groups of people since forever"). There is no such thing as an inflexible, invariable "human nature". Human nature is dictated by material conditions, the economic base and the superstructure than reinforces it. You do not think dialectically, you think metaphyisically.
To pretend that there can be such thing as a "free Ukraine" (the "free republic" mentioned by Lenin in The State and Revolution, in which he quotes Marx and Engels) under bourgeois rule is nothing more than an INFANTILE DISORDER.
Zandroe_@reddit
In your analogy, your ruling class isn't trying to shoot you but is trying to send you into a situation where you will likely get shot. Because, contrary to the rather strange organicist analogies people like to use, countries are not giant persons. There is no person called "Russia" which is shooting at a person called "Ukraine". These are societies, divided by class and ruled by capital just as every other society on the planet. In these circumstances, the best option for an Ukrainian worker is probably to flee from the war, and a lot of them already have. Currently the EU capitalist governments are trying to push them back into war. To get killed.
There is little room for class action in wartime, whether that is Ukraine, Syria, Georgia, Karabagh, Croatia etc. What we need to do is attract the class conscious element once the war ends.
pinkyelloworange@reddit
They aren’t sending you anywhere per se you already are there. A Russian soldier barges into your home. Would you like a gun to shoot them? A Russian soldier barges into your neighbors home. Would you like a gun to shoot them?
The Ukrainean gov had an option of “do nothing” when Russia invaded and the invasion still would have happened and you’d still be in danger of a guy with a gun being in your home. If the Russian gov decided to “do nothing” the Ukrainean working class person would stop being in danger of a random Russian working class person being in their home with a gun.
The fact that somebody is trying to enter your home with a gun is a given. You can’t ignore that situation. It doesn’t matter if your capitalist overlords decide to give you a gun or not, the other guy’s capitalist overlords have decided that he is going to try and enter your home with a gun (again, often quite literally).
If a guy tries to rape me should I not report it to the police because “ACAB” and “he was working class you both have a common enemy”?
Zandroe_@reddit
Ukrainians, I am quite sure, are not born in the army, on the front lines. You are ignoring this. All of these cutesy parables about two people of which one has a gun etc. ignore the reality that Ukrainian workers, like Syrian workers before them, are choosing to flee the slaughter in large numbers. People like you would like to send them back to their death, then condescendingly claim you are in fact helping them.
sourceenginelover@reddit
Marxists are not interested in which side started which war. What communists care about is the class character of war.
These workers have false consciousness.
laveol@reddit
No. Also not allowed to defend women and children either. It all makes sense, I promise.
sourceenginelover@reddit
this is a sentimentalist moralist argument
sourceenginelover@reddit
this was the exact propaganda peddled during WW1 and which Marxists rightfully criticized - "for the defence of the fatherland"
same recycled garbage 100 years later
we want civil war between classes, not wars which advance capitalist interests
Romanoktonos@reddit
Lmao so you're just larping. Everything you said is just delusional. Defending Ukraine from imperialism is bad because of capitalism. Legit nonsensical.
og_toe@reddit
why do you think russia invaded ukraine? for workers rights? we are for a peaceful end to this conflict, as in both parties immediately settle and stop killing each other, NOT for ukraine to be slaughtered by russia. the more weapons ukraine gets, the more they will instigate russia instead of having a conversation. and yes, we hate whatever the hell russia is doing too, and if russian weapons were coming through europe they would be blocked as well but they are not coming from europe so we can’t protest them.
Zandroe_@reddit
And you, I suppose, are contacting us from the front line.
In any case, for Marxists, imperialism is just a stage in the development of capitalism. The problem is the capitalist society, not that relations between capitalist states are not "right".
CrazyGreekReloaded@reddit
Great answer thanks
Socia11yAcWaR6@reddit
No rason. Same reason Hitler picked the Jews.
Acceptable_Fail_315@reddit
Hate is rather a rude word to be used about our Greek Brothers. The Marxism they seek is that of complete debt relief, with religion at their feet. These are not of the Communism that has been tried and ruined many a country, and has now stopped trying to hide which side they support. True Marxists would help the trucks get to Ukraine, but these men think only of a mythical place where Marxism leads to no war or hate.
The Greek Orthodox Church and the few Jews left in Greece acknowledge that Marxism, Leninism, Trotskyism, and Che’ism are all the same. Politics cut from the same Atenian Parthenon of false gods and fake pride. The last Greek to leave the isles there should shut off the lights. Of course no energy is required in Greece as very soon, no one will visit them often enough to care enough to go back.
Turkey and it’s beaches are so passé for those who only worship fruit and the bitter wound on the right hand, as they tar and congealed blood of the left eye see no Greek pride, except in Thesonolika.
RammRras@reddit
And because they get money from Russia.
ayayayamaria@reddit
Typical tribal mindset of "west = bad, therefore non-west = good". They're the sort of people to defend imperialism and genocide as long as it's not perpetrated by USA and allies.
og_toe@reddit
nobody is saying russia=good though, that’s the thing. west bad AND russia bad too. it’s not either or
ayayayamaria@reddit
I appreciate the consistency, but a lot of people caught in the US-Russia-war debate forget Ukranians are not lifeless unfeeling NCPs.
og_toe@reddit
indeed, but they are probably not leftists, in my subs what we talk about all day is human suffering in some capacity. everyone engaged in this war is suffering except the bourgeoisie. russian and ukrainian workers, if anything, should band together and say no, we will not kill each other just because some rich mf told us to.
HumanMan00@reddit
Defending Russia, who is by all markers a corrupt capitalist society, is crazy.
But modern Marxists are not terribly smart so 🤷🏻
The_Angel_of_Justice@reddit
They don't support Russia. At least in Greece, about whom the conversation is now... Who told you that?
31_hierophanto@reddit
Not Marxists, Marxist-Leninists.
4thmovementofbrahms4@reddit
It’s as Marx himself said: “history repeats itself, first as a tragedy, then as a farce.”
Modern day Marxists are a farce.
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
They dont that.... if you have actually seen any of the parties points is that it dislikes china-russia east in the same way as the west the party supports naturality and want the country out of every geopolitical alliance it criticize russia it has cut ties with the russian communist party since 2022 the only reason it doennt seem like that is because nato is literally inside greek borders so they have more to say about that but dont misunderstand the party condems russian imperialist exactly like usa etc...
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit (OP)
These Marxists are following a western Ideology lmao
GoHardLive@reddit
Τhat political party is also the 4th biggest political party in Greece and they get like 10% in the polls
MegasKeratas@reddit
More like 5-7%, let's not get crazy.
GoHardLive@reddit
i think in the last European elections they got almost 10%
MegasKeratas@reddit
Nobody cares about european elections.
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
Literally majority of policies that greek parliament passes were suggested by the european parliament..... also like its predicted that the party will reach the 10% threshold since it already does in most surveys its not something surprising the party was always above 10% untill synaspismos broke off in the 90s Also the party isnt pro russia
MegasKeratas@reddit
I don't know about that. I was referring to the abstention from voting which reached 60% in the last European elections.
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
Exactly because most greeks believe that plus the fact that the majority of people are disappointed by the largest parties so they decide to stay home But parties with no clear agenda especially nd syriza and pasok follow strictly eu parlament descions thats why they all vote in favor when propsed
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit (OP)
why they are that popular?
Col_Escobar1924@reddit
Becaue of a variety of different reasons but they are (like all the political parties here in greece) more like football clubs than someone supports rather something that has to do 100% with political ideology .
Like eg my mother is a KKE voter since forever she's also a progressive person (pro gay rights and such) anw while she's votes for KKE and she'll keep voting for them she didnt even know that KKE was against gay marriage.
GoHardLive@reddit
They have a very dynamic presence in Greek universities and they recruit a lot of new blood from there. And here in Greece everyone and their mother studies to a university at some point in their lives so everyone comes accross them and their propaganda.
Anastasia_of_Crete@reddit
Marxist-leninism was developed in Russia, its like saying Baathism is a western ideology just because it burrowed theory
itisiminekikurac@reddit
This is incredible to me, how shallow people are on this subreddit oftentimes. No, open hate towards NATO isn't hate towards Ukraine or love for Russia. Also, if you wanna find the catalyst of this war, it's fucking NATO aswell, not "russian imperialism".
I don't like Putin as much as the next man, but Zelensky and entire leadership of Ukraine are tools and they don't care about their people either, they are EU/NATO muppets and the land is being abused as the buffer zone for a west/east conflict.
Kari-kateora@reddit
That's what my dad said as well, and he's a pretty reasonable guy. That, in a way, NATO didn't give Putin a lot of choice but to create more of a buffer zone. Doesn't make what he's doing okay, but it's not something as simple as "rawr, let's attack euwope and reclaim this countwy uwu"
og_toe@reddit
the important words are doesn’t make what he is doing okay, a lot of people think automatically that you love russia if you don’t support everything ukraine does, but it’s not true, everything about this war is bad!
itisiminekikurac@reddit
It's the simplest solution given the state that public knows of. But with western cultural hegemony it's easy to share the idea of "Russia bad West is only defending".
As most of Serbs, I'd still rather my country and Ukraine join EU, and I hope Putin goes away and NATO stops being a terrorist force, but hey a man could dream. But to think Russia attacked Ukraine over some ideals is crazy to me, when a war over ideals didn't break out in the past 200 years, only over influence and industry.
og_toe@reddit
russia: if NATO creeps any closer to our borders we will answer violently
usa and ukraine: let’s start a NATO accession process!
like, it wasn’t a secret and it wasn’t sudden. russia isn’t invading for the hell of it, they said for YEARS that they would go in if NATO tried something. and NATO did try something.
Zekieb@reddit
They don't like NATO.
NATO countries are the primary political and military supporters of Ukraine.
They (as in left wingers of this type in general) usually dislike Ukraine only by proxy, most of the time they do not have strong feelings against it.
It's pretty much the same reason they tend to also support Kosovo being "reintegrated" to Serbia or Taiwan "uniting" with China. In all those instances the West/NATO/US are major supporters for those countries.
The basic principle of them is a somewhat binary world view: if they are supported by the West aka 'Murica they are bad, if the West is against something. That something must, at the very least, be ok.
og_toe@reddit
not only if they are supported by the west, but they see places like that as becoming worse from western influence, therefore it’s better if they unite with the other country, so they don’t become a western proxy
Dwarven_Bard@reddit
That's a very long way of saying they are mouthbreathing idiots.
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit (OP)
with the exception of their views on Israel, tankies have the dumbest views on foreign issues.
pydry@reddit
Tankie has become such an ironic slur. It's always used by people who always want to send in the tanks against people who never do.
WASDKUG_tr@reddit
Tankies are called Tankies because they celebrate when CCP sent the tanks to Tiananmen Square
pydry@reddit
You're thinking of the 50 cent army. They are not left wing, theyre just authoritarians.
WASDKUG_tr@reddit
Communism with "Chinese Characteristics"
Qasimisunloved@reddit
It's used on anyone who is against the current world order, I rarely seen it used against someone who likes the CPC.
WASDKUG_tr@reddit
Tankies original meaning is someone who actively supports places like North Korea, CPC, and some even maybe Stalin's USSR.
If People today are using the Meaning Wrong, not my problem.
abcdefabcdef999@reddit
To Hungary actually
WASDKUG_tr@reddit
Hungarijiang Autonomous Territory, the westernmost province of the PRC
Special-Remove-3294@reddit
Tankie forigen policy is anti liberalism. Always has been and always will be.
The whole point of communism is to avoid compromise at all costs. If they were willing to compromise with the neoliberals the split between the revolutionary socialists(commies) and normal socialist would never have happened.
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
tag checks out
ThrowRA_abeltesfaye@reddit
Kosovo and Serbia is a completely different issue than Taiwan and China. Please learn more about that, Kosovo literally used to be part of Serbia, not even that long ago. Learn about what happened in between then and now, and Greece supporting that will make more sense, as well as Greece (and other countries who were negatively affected) being opposed to NATO.
TheTastyHoneyMelon@reddit
Definetly, Serbia is the role model for Balkan nations in terms of respecting your neighbours territorial claims.
ThrowRA_abeltesfaye@reddit
That's not what I said though
TheTastyHoneyMelon@reddit
Well, I like to criticise the argument that Kosovo used to be part of Serbia and that Serbia's historical claims on that region got violeted by mentioning Serbia's actions in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia.
In a reverse way they are the same thing. Only that one side was successful while the other was semi successful.
Maybe we are having a misunderstanding? Did I misinterpret your comment maybe?
ThrowRA_abeltesfaye@reddit
I don't know whether you're misinterpreting my comment or not, but that's irrelevant. Just because Serbia committed the actions that you mention, it doesn't mean that Kosovo wasn't part of Serbia until NATO intervened for their own financial interests, as they always do. The two aren't mutually exclusive, Kosovo is one place, Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia are different places, idk if you knew that.
Responsible_Lawyer_3@reddit
That better be sarcastic
TheTastyHoneyMelon@reddit
Do I really have to add the /s
og_toe@reddit
they don’t hate ukraine, they hate NATO and the western rule
Nick_mgt@reddit
Communism and left are not the same. Right and fascism are not the same. We need to educate ourselves and learn the actual meaning of words and stop talking like uneducated Americans. These are KKE supporters, meaning communists not leftists.
KafkasCat7@reddit
Respectfully, i disagree. Being a left winger means that you support a different economic system which is socialism.
The only real leftists are those who advocate for the abolition of capitalism (communists, anarchists, syndicalists). Social Democrats and other self proclaimed "leftists" just want to maintain the current status quo with more regulations.
Social democrats are not leftists, they're centrists at best. A dive into German politics of 1920-1930 will make anyone understand what im saying.
Nick_mgt@reddit
It's hard to understand each ideology when everyone says whatever they want, even Wikipedia is full of shit on the matter. From friends I have in the EAAK schemes (radical left) they say communism is not part of the political spectrum, wich I totally agree on. Many ideologies in theory advocate the downfall of capitalism, including fascism; that doesn't make them leftists. Especially anarchist, with their twisted violent fantasies (and stupidity), we call them Freaks, and we don't associate them with the left. More about who's "real left" or not I don't know enough to say so I can't disagree or agree with you. I will look into the 1920s German politics
Every-Artist-35@reddit
Anarchism and communism cannot be put in place in the political spectrum of a democratic constitution.
Nick_mgt@reddit
Yea that has been my belief as well. If it ain't democracy, it's not on the spectrum
Anti_Thing@reddit
Communists are (a type of) leftist by definition. The situation of fascists is a bit more complicated because of their communist/leftist roots, though they're generally seen as part of the right.
Nick_mgt@reddit
That's the point though, they are not right wing. How does an ideology born during the great depression, specifically to counter the prevailing Right wing economical system, is now days considered Right? How does an ideology, who's basic economical policy is taking all the businesses away from private hands and handing them to the supreme leader or just him having absolute control over them is considered Right, when the right does the absolute opposite of this (liberalism).
Of course communists follow by definition left wing policies, but left is not communism, and neither is the far left (I'm not saying you're implying it). I could argue that they are a part of the far left, but not more that that.
guessmyname05@reddit
Fascists are definitely right wing and have always been - they are like communists on the authoritarian side of their spectrums which makes them manifest in similar ways.
Fascism counts as right wing [far on the extreme and authoritarian end of that wing.] as they use an image of nostalgia and the past in a way some right populists do but they instead use it as a way to propagate[?] more of a reactionary kind of movement instead of mere conservatism, while communism, also on the autoritarian end of their axis, is more focused on a utopian vision of a distant future [which also often has inspirations in a form of the past] and some level of progressive ideas.
Both of them play with the population and their resentments and a healthy [for their agenda i mean] amount of propaganda to legitimise their way into deeper authoritarianism.
In addition, one must not forget that in the third reich, to bring up the most well known example of fascism, they did not really counter the prevailing system, they bent it, capitalism actually played an important role in fascism.
2_Pints_Of_Rasa@reddit
They’re Greek.
They’ve no idea what it’s like to live under Russia’s tyranny.
They’re also Greek
Fatalaros@reddit
To be fair Greek communists do know what it's like to live under US tyranny from all the fascist juntas we've had.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
You can always disband your country and become part of Turkey. just like your ancestors. Would save the EU quite some money. As bonus would be one NATO veto less.
Fatalaros@reddit
Having the world's highest dept, I doubt Turkey would like to inherit it amidst its already stressed economy.
Littlebouncinparrot@reddit
Greek lefties are the reason Greece is a shithole right now. I know because I lived nearly half my life there.
Wolfesheud@reddit
Name a big Greece problem thay was caused by Greek left.
Littlebouncinparrot@reddit
Bro..common. I understand Nea Dimokratia is considered "right wing" in Greece but they are as much right wing as Kamala was a Marxist.
Greece is just a tourist attraction. Nothing else. A playground. And from the looks of it the rest of Europe is steadily becoming just a tourist attraction
CrazyGreekReloaded@reddit
Bollocks
RaviDrone@reddit
These are ammo meant to kill people. Greek leftists are humane, they want the war to end.
Montreal4life@reddit
incredible based gigachad move
NATO needs to gtfo
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
NATO is not fighting in Ukraine. Maybe Canada should GTFO of NATO. And get rekt by Elon and Donald next 4 years.
Montreal4life@reddit
we should get out of NATO actually, yeah
elektronyk@reddit
Yeah mate good job, you're in Canada an ocean away from Russia while we are constantly threatened by them, but go on about how NATO needs to just let Russia blitz through Eastern Europe.
Montreal4life@reddit
canada literally borders russia
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Russians cant swim You are save. Unless Trump and Elon has plans.
GinStella@reddit
Um, I don't see anyone mentioning it but I see people holding "support Palestine and Lebanon" posters.
Maybe the people thought the trucks had ammunition for Israel hence why they blocked it (I heard there some cases recently) or it was actually a protest to support the Palestinian and Lebanese people but wherever you found these photos or read these news they mislead you by saying it was against Ukraine?
cbk1992@reddit
They oppose NATO, don’t hate Ukraine. Tonnes of people protested the Iraq War. Was that supporting Saddam? Within your question you’ve already assumed their position.
Either supporting Ukraine or Russia isn’t really what they see, they see NATO and the US stoking the flames of war in just another country in the world.
Futski@reddit
They just don't want the Ukrainians to have arms to protect themselves.
cosmicdicer@reddit
Excuses. The are pro Russia and they believe Ukrainian ate Nazis.
CrazyGreekReloaded@reddit
Ukrainians targeted Greek community in Ukraine they're nazis
potato485@reddit
Weird coming from a Putin simp
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
they see NATO and the US stoking the flames of war in just another country in the world.
Literarely one of the narratives Russia is spreading.
sta6gwraia@reddit
An Iraqi pro-NATOist!
cosmicyellow@reddit
Communists hate the West and adore Russia.
Sudden_Shock8434@reddit
I don't think the reason is very complicated. Radical leftists and radical rightists are not very different. They are like sheep following their shepherds. Leftists in Turkey did the same thing because, for them, Russia = communism = good side.
More_Particular684@reddit
I think the equation is more like Russia = anti-EU/USA = good side . Still their amount of support for Russia is baffling. I know one of them, he even dared to say the inflation rate in Russia is lower than in EU because they pay 0.5€/Liter of gasoline, notwithstanding they have to import all the rest lmao.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Tell him about Russian butter and meat, which both spiked 20% in a year.
levenspiel_s@reddit
Yeah exactly, and it's more baffling because of lack of basic common sense. No matter which side you are on, you cannot support Russia. Even if you are Russian, you can't.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
I know Russians who dont like the war. But dont go look for them, chances are higher you find a vatnik or a depoliticized one who if condoning theit tzars wars.
RegionSignificant977@reddit
I see hammer and sickle, that's USSR. No matter that contemporary russia is more capitalist than most of the western Europe. Those people aren't the brightest bulbs for sure.
architecTiger@reddit
That’s right leftists Turks were crushed for being against NATO and Türkiye was rewarded with radical Islamist ever since. Long live Uncle Sam saviour and protector of radical Islam, down with leftist!!
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
The party heavily dislikes both china and russia in the same level only reason doesn't seem like that is because it does more anti nato stuff sinc literally greece is part of nato but it has cut ties with anyrhing russia related since 2022
mulatto_da_conqueror@reddit
Try doing that to ammo that goes to Israel
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit (OP)
actually they did the same thing Israel a monh ago.
Leontopod1um@reddit
So maybe they would also stand against military aid for Russia, hypothetically?
Wolfesheud@reddit
Yes, if what they are saying clearly is true they will. They have already cut ties with Russian and China communist parties for that reason so i don't see the reason ehy they wouldn't.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Highly likely they are clandestinely funded by Russia, like all other anti NATO parties in Europe these days.
Leontopod1um@reddit
When you have an opposition that is clandestinely funded by the status-quo and former communists standing for Euro-Atlanticism, you will have reached (down to) our level.
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit (OP)
the party is funded by Russia
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
No...
Leontopod1um@reddit
Eh?
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
The party is strongly anti-russia-china in the same way it is anti-nato every single party in grerce has big donors exept kke witch gets all of its money by small donations from its members its dont get foreign money It has cut all ties with the communist party of russia since the invasion and it has disbanded "inotiative"(communist org) due to arguing with pro russian parties
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Communist party of Russia doesnt exist. There is only real one party,with some members larping to be part of fake parties. This includes the communist party. And you think they dont have ties, but they still get money, through the donors you mentioned. Or cryptos.
Leontopod1um@reddit
Oh.
LibertyChecked28@reddit
It isn't, the Greek communist party is remnant of the Greek communists who got purged by us and Germany back durring WW2, and then later by the US with the Faschist Greek dictators.
P.S: He is the exact same guy who called all of Bulgaria "Trump Suporters".
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
All anti NATO forces in Europe receive Russian rubbles. Nigal Farage, Marine Le Pen, Salvini, BSW, etc are all receiving money. In The Netherlands there is a guy, Geert Wilders, who receive money from Russia, Israel and one of trump's donors.
Leontopod1um@reddit
Hm.
Beneficial-Beat-947@reddit
No lol, they hate NATO + Israel so they stand against any military aid that benefits these 2
If there was military aid to russia they'd empty their pockets to give them more since they're anti NATO
Leontopod1um@reddit
Ah.
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
They dont support russia either do your research
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
You mean the taxmoney of other European countries. Imagine if the Northern counttries countries of Europe would say no more free money for Greece.
DelyanKovachev@reddit
Q: Why didn’t they do this in USA?
A: Because they won’t see the sun for a few years.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Well, they will see the rise somthing else orange.
Alector87@reddit
Marxist-Leninists*
These are members of KKE, that is, the Communist Party of Greece. They are one of the few Orthodox Marxist-Leninist parties left in Europe with a real electoral presence. They are as you would expect extremely anti-NATO and anti-American and of course extremely socially conservative.
The latter, in fact, is their main difference with the other main far-left parliamentary faction, traditionaly represented by Syriza - meaning Coalition of the Radical Left (before '04 known as Syn, that is the (first) word, Coalition. With the latter hailing from the Eurocommunist split of the once united KKE, and was initially albeit briefly called 'KKE (of the) Interior.' Although since the fall of the USSR they mostly identify (at least in their external/public narratives) as Democratic Socialists,' they are pretty conservative as far as ideology is concerned, with the exception being social issues where they are more accepting. Again their main difference with KKE. This means that their core members, even if they don't actively participate, support and legitimize with their narratives such actions. Many (most?) of them being pro-Russian, so-called 'anti-imperialists,' and anti-West.
In the last decade and a bit during the financial crisis they accepted initially a lot of center-left members -- formerly of Pasok, which during its founding espoused a lot of radical leftist rhetoric due to the experience and reaction to the late 60s early 70s dictatorship of the Colonels in Greece, something that remains in the DNA of the party making the transition to a leftist party for many of them a lot easier -- and later a lot of anti-establishment populists throughout the period making it more of a reactionary populist party.
Even though they managed to form a minority government in '15 until '19 they have since then collapsed - electorally in '23 and in the polls over the last year. The main cause being that even though they claimed to now be a 'center-left party,' adding the phrase 'Progressive Alliance' in their name, this was nothing more than role-playing, and they remained the same reactionary, anti-establishment populist party. Over the past year the party has experienced a number of splits. Initially when a group of leftist MPs left to form 'Greek Left,' which did not manage to elect MEPs in the last EU election and constantly polls bellow the 3% needed to enter parliament. Since then the old Eurocommunist/Democratic Socialist core (the ones who remained) has 'reclaimed' the party pushing everyone else out, who are in the process of forming a new party. Currently, they poll in single digits.
I hope this brief note on Greek leftist/far-left parliamentary parties helps.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Thank you
Kari-kateora@reddit
This was pretty damn well written!
blackrainuk@reddit
Russia has a right to defend itself
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Funny guy. No one invaded them. BTW Russia doesnt exist. It is tsar Putin, richest on the planet, who want to fullfill his phantasy of reinstating the RUssian empire.
markolosole@reddit
We don't hate Ukraine, we just don't want to participate in this war.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Then go to China. Europe doesn't need 5th colomn within their ranks with looming invasions..
SirPansalot@reddit
I, as a leftist, totally get the distaste and hatred for both Ukraine and NATO, but those leftists that unironically support Putin’s Russia are simply wankers
Wolfesheud@reddit
The blocking party in question doesn't support Putin. In the start of the war they did a protest on both embassies, USA and Russia in the same day. Don't come to fast conclusions, you can read their opinion on the specific war it is in English.
Shortly, they say it is an imperialist war on both sides eyeing routes of energy and geostrategic powerplay. Both peoples have nothing to gain from this war. This strongly reminds what you say on the matter.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
THen they are misinformed (or their leaders are handsomely paid).
SirPansalot@reddit
Sorry, bad wording with “those” on my part - I had read these nuances in the comments and had wanted to say that (generally speaking) the leftists who genuinely do support Putin are dumb, and not these leftists in particular
SirDoodThe1st@reddit
Far left wing people everywhere hate Ukraine
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Its because they are tankies. "America bad, Russia/China good".
simo_rz@reddit
My not biased, objective view: The far left everywhere are unreasonable children that live in the same level of fantasy world as the worst nationalists. Actually in the Balkans they are even closer to the far right, because the great imaginary enemy they both have is the West/America. No one should listen to them- they will sell their souls to the first dictator that validated the fantasy novel in their head.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Exactly. It is the horseshoe theory. And its not only in the Balkans.
XanderGeist@reddit
The protests are because there are many NATO bases in greece and we are within missile range from Russia, the main point of the protests is that we have a huge target on our back and by supporting either side of the war we are "begging" to get dragged in and become an example for foreign interests, it's not a pro-russia sentiment, it's definitely not pro-nato, it's pro-peace.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Pro peace? Call the Kremlin and ask politely to the RUssian tzar if the calls of his invnasion and recall back his troops. I believe he would listen to the wishes of a few Greek Marxists, who ands 'peace'.
Cut the Kremlin crap here. I know all their game and you are playing on of them.
Fit_Room_851@reddit
i would love seeing greece leave NATO, but the Turks would probably love it even more
XanderGeist@reddit
That's a very close minded argument, the Turkish "boogeyman" has been used as an argument for 20 years now, Erdogan's threats don't seem to stop even though we're part of nato. And a successful invasion isn't a sure thing this day and age, just take a look at the ukrainian Russian front, 2.5 years now and still going, not as easy as it seemed, and we're talking about Russians economy crumbling, turkey's economy won't last a 2 year full scale war, even if this supposed was does happen, the only Victors will be the gun producers and the capitalists, the losers will be the innocent Greeks and turks who will die fighting each other.
Fit_Room_851@reddit
yes, but now try understanding why Russia has problems invading Ukraine, couldn't have anything to do with western aid. also turkey doesn't even need a full scale war to take some Greek islands
elektronyk@reddit
Bowing down to Russia won't bring peace. Against Russia, peace is obtained through strength.
Anti_Thing@reddit
Russia wouldn't dare directly attack a NATO country. Putin isn't nearly as stupid as western liberals think he is.
EpicStan123@reddit
it's called being a tankie. USSR/Russia good, west bad. It's essentially campism
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
Nope the party has argued over and over about this its strongly anti russia and condems every leftists party that is pro russia The party is strongly natural and is againist any involvement of greece in any big geopolitical alliance includes both nato and russia-china
EpicStan123@reddit
Idk man, blocking ammunitions for Ukraine literally helps Russian geopolitical interests, but okay go claim how they're anti-Russia.
Wolfesheud@reddit
Letting ammunition and weapons paid by the Greek people to go to Ukraine without even a protest is a strong pro NATO position. Greece is actively engaged in that war.
You would be right if ammunition was going to Putin from Greece also and they didn't do anything selectively. But now they are actually doing what they should in the basis of what is their position on the war:
Imperialist war on both sides, people slaughtered on rich pwople interest, we don't want to be a part of it.
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
Does Greece has boots on the ground in Ukraine, engaging in combat? Nope.
Ukraien doesnt exist, thats Russia's pov.You think it is about rich people? Then you are wrong buddy. Its not about money or minerals.
Maybe we can declare Greece doesnt exist and give all its territory back to Turkey? And force all Greeks to become 2nd class citizens, kust like in the Ottoman Empire. Would you like that?
Putin claimes half of Europe doesnt exist as free nations. Thats why he is attacking.
Gunnerpain98@reddit
It looks like a tiger and it behaves like a tiger but says it’s a goat so it must be a goat right?
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
What?
If you imply that the party pretends to be anti russia bit is pro russia . That is simply false the party had to disband its communist organization (intiative) due to constant arguing with pro russian parties . The cost of disbanding this along with cutting ties with all the pro russian parties comes with a cost its not just for show
Own_Zone2242@reddit
This could have something to do with it
Nothereortherexin@reddit
Once again - Balkans being Balkans.
SnooShortcuts726@reddit
Ppl who live in western countries but are not prone to do their interests
Dry-Physics-9330@reddit
TLDR Marxist hate the countries that broke away from Russia, which in the mind of these people is communist paradise.
Mind_motion@reddit
We dont see Greeks throw homemade bombs in occupied Cyprus, do we?
And if we are to arm a nation to protect itself against foreign invasion, to throw invaders out of the country - all of us, left right and center, would have helped Cyprus out before even caring the slightest about whats practically a Russian civil war.
FranceMainFucker@reddit
god i hate these types of leftists
QuantumTopology@reddit
OP is a bot trying to equate being against the current situation with hating Ukraine.
Bootlegcrunch@reddit
Russia invaded Ukraine and started this bloodfeast and they are blaming nato support for Ukraine not being brutally invaded
Iam_no_Nilfgaardian@reddit
It's very funny that people equal left with communism.
konschrys@reddit
Because communists somehow still exist and well, they’re stupid.
Chemical_Refuse_1030@reddit
Because Russians pay them.
manguardGr@reddit
They are against everything "western", capitalism, militarism and American..
Minute_Flounder_4709@reddit
A bunch of communists should not be allowed to block what the government wants. Give them the communist treatment and get the police to beat them to a pulp on the streets, that’s what they want to see when people protest the government, right? Cunts.
Conscious_Sail1959@reddit
Ukraine is a country where you can go to jail for sickle and hummer
noname086fff@reddit
let you explain the thought process of those idiots. usa = nato= bad, rusia= comunism = good. That is all.
Disastrous_Ant3541@reddit
KKE supporters all share one brain cell between them.
Matsko2701@reddit
Because they are communist, don't expect too much wisdom from them.
poopingshitpoopshit@reddit
CDawg??????
No_Raccoon_7096@reddit
Impressive
Marxists didn't simp that hard for imperial wars of conquest since Stalin
Gynaecolog@reddit
Thought that wad Dritan Abazoviq for a moment.
AndreiTatescu@reddit
Good for them. We should all take note.
jschundpeter@reddit
the left is completely lost
TheNobelLaureateCrow@reddit
All extremist like or are paid for by Russia
Anti_Thing@reddit
There are plenty of anti-Russia extremists lol
LibertyChecked28@reddit
If: "I know jack $h!t about Greece, but I know all there is about Greece so listen here"- was a person.
ProItaliangamer76@reddit
It doesnt get any foreign money it has cut all ties with the russian communist party since the start of the invasion The party is natural its not west or east alligned
Anti_Thing@reddit
Reaction against the CIA-backed military dictatorship Greek had in the past could be a reason, similar to Latin American leftists. Even though Leftists are secularist, on a cultural level there's also a sense of brotherhood with Russia against Turkey & the West.
WASDKUG_tr@reddit
They are Communists, their opinion does not matter
Rolekz@reddit
Marxists 🤝 Far right wingers, dumb hypocrites
kerelberel@reddit
A not insignificant amount of lefties are insufferable wokies and tankies. I consider myself centre/centre-left but these people annoy me to no end.
grTheHellblazer@reddit
Cause most of these weapons are not meant for the ukranians to defend themselves. It's for them to sell to their black market for profit of their politicians.
Fit_Room_851@reddit
yes absolutely, there's also no Russian invasion going on, and the moon landing was faked by Stanley Kubrick
ViscountBuggus@reddit
Because they're filthy communists
LibertyChecked28@reddit
You ain't very tidy either.
i_film@reddit
Antiamericanism.
JackNoLegs@reddit
They are inbred
magyarul_tanulok_I_@reddit
🤡
Imaginary_String_814@reddit
I will tell you a secret but it has little to do with Ukraine and their requests are rather ideology driven.