Central Market’s new Uptown store design is too suburban
Posted by SerkTheJerk@reddit | Dallas | View on Reddit | 233 comments
Posted by SerkTheJerk@reddit | Dallas | View on Reddit | 233 comments
Ferrari_McFly@reddit
Why would they even propose this design in an area that has a population density of 20K+/sq mile? This looks more fitting up north.
Dallas can’t let this happen, though they already allowed a QT to be built on prime uptown real estate so who knows.
TxManBearPig@reddit
The development should be mimicking the Whole Foods or Tom Thumb concepts that are in uptown and victory park.
captainn_chunk@reddit
This comment is fucking hilariously sad.
Yes keep promoting that prime uptown real estate over literally anything else 🫣🫠
TxManBearPig@reddit
Lol I’m sorry but what’s your alternative?
captainn_chunk@reddit
Anything that’s not
another money grab restaurant
Another overpriced high rise
But wait, without those things what would uptown even be?🤔
TxManBearPig@reddit
Hey dude welcome to populated city centers. Where merchants and restaurants coexist. It’s only been this way since Rome was founded?
captainn_chunk@reddit
You ever leave Dallas?
YaGetSkeeted0n@reddit
What do you think NYC, London, Seoul, etc look like?
captainn_chunk@reddit
Nothing like the city of Dallas as they are massively larger cityscapes and city centers.
CrzyWzrd4L@reddit
My dude Chicago is 100% like this. Most uptown urban centers are just high rises, eateries, upscale shopping and parking garages. Urban centers make as many blocks as possible with walking or extremely short drives in mind to minimize traffic congestion.
TxManBearPig@reddit
I just got back here today. You ever leave the internet?
captainn_chunk@reddit
Oh nice how was Austin?
00Stealthy@reddit
no the hilarious part is the thinking that people riding DART can afford to shop at a CM.
captainn_chunk@reddit
Big Suburbs energy
MarthaGail@reddit
I love that Tom Thumb. Easy in, easy out. It fits in nicely.
liquidatedbalenci@reddit
Besides the parking validation
brenap13@reddit
Even then, it takes literally a second when you are checking out to hand the employee the validation ticket.
Htgn2dallas@reddit
I work in the building right next to Tom Thumb. I love that I can walk in after work, grab some things, and walk back home.
TxManBearPig@reddit
I agree. It really is kinda seamless with the surroundings there.
Pharrelldfw@reddit
So they should build an entire apartment complex on top of the store? Lol
CrzyWzrd4L@reddit
They had the idea to do it in Houston where there’s no zoning laws, so why not?
acorneyes@reddit
yes? what’s so funny about that?
playballer@reddit
They just want to bring their style of grocery in but you want government to require them to spend tens of millions more on real estate for a business model they don’t even operate in. 👌 👍 this is a good recipe for chasing away all developers
acorneyes@reddit
no, they had previously agreed to build a mixed use development until they reneged.
they also have their fingers in the real estate pie: https://www.hebdevelopment.com
they also have done a mixed use development in the past: https://newsroom.heb.com/h-e-b-buffalo-heights-store-opens-in-houston-companys-first-in-mixed-use-development/
the way these things work is a developer constructs a building, and leases space to prospective tenants. in heb’s case, the development arm constructs the building, and leases the retail space to it’s own heb subsidiary, central market, to occupy that space. the apartments are leased to an apartment management company who are solely responsible for that aspect of the building.
i don’t think you know what you’re talking about to be honest.
playballer@reddit
I am pretty familiar with all of this and no them agreeing wasn’t restricting or binding or contractual, they changed their plan and are allowed to do so. Sounds like you don’t know how development works
acorneyes@reddit
i never said it was a contractual agreement. they are facing backlash. that backlash is due to them doing an asshole move, that is, a bait and switch.
you on the other hand:
- naïvely claimed that they don't operate in development, which is entirely untrue.
- think that shooting down low density development in favor of high density development scares developers away, which is partially true, but also partially untrue. it scares away those unwilling to do low density development, and invites those that want to do high density development. this isn't rocket science.
- think that stonewalling a terrible development will lead to inflating costs, which is untrue. there are already some grocery stores nearby that must compete with one another. it would be really nice to have another one, but it won't have that drastic an effect on grocery prices. the benefit of stonewalling them, is unless they'd like to pay property taxes on land they aren't making money on indefinitely, they'll develop a mixed use building, or sell to someone who will. this will address the housing market, which sorely needs more supply, and more than likely, also have a grocery store. (which again, won't alleviate grocery prices, but is still a nice to have).
EDsandwhich@reddit
There is a HEB in Houston that has apartments on top, so the company should be familiar with the process.
Semper454@reddit
Yup. Whole Foods on McKinney is a perfect example of what this should try to be. Absolutely no reason to let HEB build what they’ve proposed.
Tom Thumb also has done a pretty great job in Victory Park and East Dallas.
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
Yes, we need it. We have a food desert here in Uptown. And there are LOTS of entire blocks that are ripe for mixed use development in Uptown (in fact, right across the street). BTW, the block with the QT.
AquaStarRedHeart@reddit
I too remember the first time I heard the term "food desert" on NPR but there's no reason to jam it in all the time
A food desert in uptown 😭
Christ
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
Well, Christ isn't here to solve this issue. It's having a full service grocery store that is walkable.
AquaStarRedHeart@reddit
Nothing to do with servicing over pampered uptown folk
sherespondedwith@reddit
lmao what?? uptown is absolutely in no way whatsoever a food desert. move south off 45/overton and tell me what a food desert is.
Josher747@reddit
A food desert in uptown?! There’s a Whole Foods blocks from this property, two Tom thumbs and a Kroger a mile away.
houdinishandkerchief@reddit
And a Walmart neighborhood market lol this “food desert” comment is laughable. There’s so many grocery options it’s more of a “food dessert”🧁
EdgarAllenBoone@reddit
It’s 3 blocks from Whole Foods… no fixing a food desert
Ferrari_McFly@reddit
I’m in Uptown. I’m not saying we don’t need CM, I’m saying we don’t need this design.
Also we have several options across multiple price/quality ranges already with Tom Thumb, Whole Foods, and Walmart close by. I personally wouldn’t consider this area a food desert. Could it use another grocery store however? Absolutely.
MemoryOfRagnarok@reddit
I don't understand the QT hate. Practically everyone drives a car. The QT is packed all the time. It's nice to have at least one gas station in the area. Not saying we should have them all over.
BitGladius@reddit
And it's not like you want to stack an apartment or office space above a gas station. If it's seeing heavy traffic that's usually a sign of demand, and you can't meet that demand at higher density than it already is.
TheLastModerate982@reddit
Yes but this is a grocery store and that is overall a good thing. I would have preferred to see it as ground floor retail to a high-rise apartment… but these days development is not very profitable.
NYerInTex@reddit
So destroy the next 20-50 years of city planning and the evolution of the most walkable and vibrant neighborhood in the dallas core for short term private sector gain and a little more convenience today for a very few number of rooftops.
That makes sense
alextheruby@reddit
You think people who shop at CM care about any of that? Lmao
NYerInTex@reddit
No.
But they aren’t the decision makers about this site. It’s the city and it comes down to zoning. And the zoning should in no way be given - it would be municipal malpractice to yield to the landowner. If they can’t wait for the market to return for dense mixed use with multi family then they can sell it to a group that can.
They bought it knowing the zoning and should be held to those very reasonable expectations
Montallas@reddit
It was an Albertson’s before…
NYerInTex@reddit
Yes. Uptown was a driving range once, too.
Things change. Land use and highest and best evolves.
This parcel in NO way should be a single use low density auto oriented supermarket.
Montallas@reddit
Let the property owner who risked their capital decide. Just like the people who bought the driving range and converted it to a higher and best use.
NYerInTex@reddit
The property owner ASSUMED the risk of the zoning that exists on that site.
I’m a big property owner rights fan. And fan of the free market. But you need appropriate, fair, and clear regulations also.
And this owner had just that. They decided to buy it knowing the zoning. It’s not appropriate nor fair to all the adjacent property owners to devalue this land and the district long term with an out of place suburban type use in the middle of the most dense, walkable neighborhood in the city.
Your contention that “I should buy it” is totally wrong. If you understood land use regulations and CRE along with the city’s role in zoning and future land use planning you’d say that if the current owner DIDNT want to take the risk of the underlying zoning, they should NOT have bought the property.
No one made central market by this parcel. They chose to. They need to abide by the land use that dictates what can be built.
That IS the property owner’s right.
Montallas@reddit
You act like no developer has ever requested and been granted an exception to zoning. It would be better for the city and all the neighbors to have a Central Market there than to have a vacant/decrepit looking old grocery store there (like there is now) or a foreclosed mixed-use development that someone lost a bunch of money in and will mare the region for any other developers trying to raise capital for developments in the area in the future.
If you own land nearby, would you rather have a foreclosed property that is going to make it impossible to get debt or equity, or a vacant grocery store, instead of a Central Market? I think not.
NYerInTex@reddit
Zoning exceptions - or as this would be, spot zoning really, which is a legal issue unto itself - are given when conditions call for it to the benefit for the community and city at large.
Not to bail out a private entity that willingly put up at risk capital and then failed at creating and executing a development plan with years to do so.
Zoning, land use, city planning are not dictated by 5 or even 10 year horizons.
Are you incapable of realizing that a supermarket would be a benefit short term. At the expense of HUGE long term losses and drawbacks.
That’s why you have zoning and future plan use plans and why you don’t let short term selfishness overtake a city and communities long term needs when a private entity entered into a land purchase with full knowledge of the risks it took.
Why do you and the government and taxpayer to bail out a private entity? Because that’s what you ask for.
They took the risk. They need to assume the responsibility.
Because it’s asinine and stupid to give up decades of benefits that will be felt throughout the entire district and extend city wide to help one land owner and provide a use that isn’t even essential for a five year benefit at the expense of those generations of lost opportunity
Ok, if you can’t see how backward it would be to grant this exception at this point there’s not much more point. No corporate bailouts.
They took a risk, they assume that risk. They shouldn’t expect the taxpayer today and tomorrow to absolve themselves of their decisions and inability to build when dozens of projects have gone up during this same period
Montallas@reddit
I totally reject that a grocery store would”HUGE long term loss” for the community.
It would be no different to raze the current old building and build-mixed use today (assuming it were feasible, and it’s not) than it would be to raze the proposed project in 10-15 years and build a mixed use project if it were feasible then.
And in the meantime the community would benefit from having a Central Market and the city would benefit from not having a vacant parcel not paying taxes.
If the alternative is to do nothing with the land and leave it fallow (because building a mixed-use development seemingly is y possible today), this is a far better option.
gerbilshower@reddit
for what it is worth - no one is doing that kind of development in Texas right now.
Austin is 'run for your life' right now as a developer, and Dallas has never been Austin.
i entirely agree with the argument here. but selling 'to someone who will' likely just isnt a thing. and so, if it doesnt happen it will just sit until the next cycle. could be 3 years, could be 10. who knows?
NYerInTex@reddit
I’m in commercial and mixed use real estate - They quite likely can’t get the sales price they want. Tough shit. They took the market risk of buying when they did, knowing the zoning and expectations of the city for future use, density/intensity/mix.
That’s their issue, and the city should NOT destroy 20-40 years of future benefit for a supermarket in a place that commands far higher and better use.
If they want to offload it at a haircut they can. Or they can hold. Or be innovative and come up with a covered land play to utilize the property for some economic use over the next 5 or so years without destroying the possibility of intensive development to occur in the 5-7 year time frame
gerbilshower@reddit
Lol yea. They can't sell it because no one is doing that kind of project right now. It isn't economically feasible.
In this situation you would usually look to find a development partner that has experience with mixed use and partner on the equity. Or some sort of sale leaseback. But, again, no one is interested in a site like this right now. Rates still too high, equity expectations still in the 16% irr range, and hard cost just hasn't moved as much as anyone thought it would have 18mo ago. Youre looking at a $200m project minimum for 250 units on top of a grocer with a subgrade garage... 60% LTC max in the market means $80m in equity. That's a huge checkwrite. Just not gonna happen.
I don't think I ever said the city should let them do it either. I'm fine with the city holding their ground here.
sherespondedwith@reddit
I shop at CM because i love HEB and I'm not driving half an hour or more to stand in their long lines in Plano. But that doesn't mean I'd be ok with this plan or what it would look like against it's current backdrop.
As a long-time HEB stan from south Texas, this is super upsetting to see.
Semper454@reddit
Uh… yes. They do. Are you serious? Especially people living in the neighborhood who are most likely to be shoppers. Why on earth would they not care about that?
If you don’t care about that, why would you pay a premium to live in Uptown?
alextheruby@reddit
If you think that’s why these people pay all that money to live downtown idk what to tell you
Semper454@reddit
Uptown isn’t downtown, and I don’t have to “think” why people live here, I actually live here. You, apparently, do not. More hot takes from Plano though, please.
alextheruby@reddit
Lmao you’re wrong as hell. Never lived in Plano. It’s okay lil bro. You’re reaching and obviously offended. Peace
sequencedStimuli@reddit
FWIW I shop at Central Market monthly and I’m an urbanist. I’d love to see them execute something akin to the Whole Foods on 5th St in East Austin that has offices and housing co-located onsite.
Semper454@reddit
Yes. Exactly. That’s a serious segment of CM’s core business. We aren’t talking about a Walmart here.
alextheruby@reddit
After this election you should know Reddit isn’t real life and most people that shop there are snobs who just don’t want to have to be subjected to shop alongside the “poor” at Walmart and etc
Montallas@reddit
Then you ought to buy the parcel from H-E-B and invest your own money to build apartments or whatever else you want above it…
NYerInTex@reddit
Or - and I know, this is a crazy idea - hold the land owner (who bought the property knowing the zoning and expectations of the city) to their obligations since they are the ones that assumed the risk… and then sat in the property for five years while they could already have been leased up or close to it.
Also, if there’s a parcel that could still command a good price it would be that location. It’s not as if no land has exchanged hands nor no projects have begun even under the current climate and economic conditions, especially in the Dallas core.
It whether or not they can get the price they want for a sale is moot. They bought it knowing the conditions and land use regulations, it’s their responsibility to abide and not to be bailed out so the land owner / company can make money at the expense of a critical parcel for the cities mid and long term economic and social growth
Montallas@reddit
I mean… when they bought it, it was a grocery store. What else do you expect another grocery store company to put there? It’s not currently economical to build high end MF in the area… This resentment seems wildly misplaced. Let the property owner build what they want there.
If the city wanted something specific there they could have bought the land and built what they wanted. But they didn’t. The city’s responsibility is to ensure someone doesn’t create a hazard there. Anything else is stepping out of their lane. Let the market dictate land use.
NYerInTex@reddit
Do you have any concept of zoning and land use regulations? It appears not.
Do you know the history of this site SINCE the current owner bought the land? Also, it appears not.
The zoning and future land use plans of the city recognize that the old use, a low density auto-oriented grocery store was no longer appropriate for this parcel.
THIS owner BOUGHT the property KNOWING what the city would allow - and not allow - to be built on the land.
It is 100% on the land owner / purchaser to abide by that zoning and to assume the risk that if they diddle around and don’t build market conditions may change.
The city owes that land owner nothing more than to allow them to build what the land owner KNEW they could build when they bought it. If the land owner wanted just a grocery store they bought the wrong parcel as it’s not allowed by right and should not be allowed as it’s a terrible decision that will undercut land prices for the adjacent property owners in the long term while devaluing the entire district long term.
The safeguard to prevent that? The exact zoning under which the current owners bought the land.
As someone who is in mixed use development as both a developer and at times advisor to the city, this is 100% on the property owner and this city would be doing itself and its taxpayers a huge disservice by letting a single use supermarket take up that critical strategic site
Montallas@reddit
Market conditions have changed. Leave it to government bureaucrats to not recognize that and continue to try and ram a square peg into a round hole. You’re not the only person in Dallas that is a real estate developer and advisor to the city.
Maybe you didn’t realize, but you know what’s worse for the city’s tax rolls and the adjacent land owner than a Central Market? (Which happens to be one of the nicest grocery concepts in region…) an abandoned grocery store.
But maybe if you hold your breath the right sucker will come along and overspend to develop the site the way the city wants and then you’ll have a foreclosed property really killing the property values - or maybe you can buy it Mr. Developer?
Let the market dictate the land use and not leave it fallow while waiting for someone to lose a shit load of money to build what the city wants. It’s not that hard.
NYerInTex@reddit
I never said I’m advisor to the city of dallas.
I am not for clarities sake. If I were I’d point out how removed from responsible governance a shortsighted viewpoint such as yours is.
Again, the free market operated under a set of rules - when those rules are fair and transparent it benefits all. The rules here were fair and transparent
The capital TOOK A RISK - it’s not the governments role to bail them out and harm tax payers for generations into the future for a shortsighted and flat out terrible land use choice to yield to very short term market conditions to the sole benefit of one land owner who is asking for a government bail out rather than accept their responsibility and risk they assumed
You seem to understand very little about development, land use, zoning, city planning, nor property rights under zoning regulations
Montallas@reddit
I understand all of those facets. What I also understand that maybe you’re lacking, is how the real estate and capital markets work.
Ignore the zoning regulations. Those can, should, and do change over time. Trying to force something that is not feasible is bad for everyone involved.
Please explain to me why, if you have an economic interest in the area (including the city who wants to increase Assessed Values) you’d rather have an abandoned grocery store or force someone to develop an unfeasible project instead of having a successful Central Market?
Please make it make sense.
NYerInTex@reddit
You want five years of marginal benefit for a non essential use at the expense of generations of economic and social benefit that literally dwarfs - but magnitudes - the short term benefit of what a supermarket today.
The only real winner is the land owner who needs to accept the risk they themselves chose
Period.
Montallas@reddit
You must think the people at HEB are stupid or something. You think they want to built some kind of sub-optimal development there? Like they could build something that would make them a lot more money, but they’re electing not to.
No. They aren’t dummies. Nor are their development partners or financiers. The way Real Estate is rewarded for building what a community needs is by making money. You said it yourself, they took the risk - so let them build what they know the community will reward them for.
You act like this is some kind of permanent structure. If the market commands mixed-use in 15 years, mixed-use will be built. Just like it was everywhere else around there was something prior to what it is now.
A Central Market is 100% better for the community than an abandoned building. Let HEB make the investment they want to make which will make the community better than it is today. If something else that makes the community even better than a Central Market becomes feasible in 15 years - then that is what will happen.
earthworm_fan@reddit
Or not build it and you can enjoy walking past no grocery store with a view of the abandoned blight of an old Kroger.
NYerInTex@reddit
Yes. That is absolutely the responsible answer from a city planning, economic development, community development, and urban planning perspective.
You don’t destroy 2+ generations of potentially huge social, economic, and environmental benefits to provide a helpful not hardly 100% essential use in the short term.
This is all the more true for an area with more of a transient population than most - this ain’t a south or southern dallas food desert scenario where long time residents have no options. These are generally well off professionals many of whom won’t live there in 2, 5, 8 years.
You don’t destroy a huge house for the area and city as a whole to address a non-pressing/essential need today.
spacedman_spiff@reddit
What a strange attitude. "Either accept this poor design or you don't have any dinner at all".
UtopianPablo@reddit
How about they just build what they originally proposed?
clewtxt@reddit
Disagree, hence all the multifamily being built and in the works in the area. This is a bait and switch.
TheLastModerate982@reddit
You mean the multifamily that was approved 3 years ago when interest rates were low?
clewtxt@reddit
No, the ones that are currently going since then...I work in the construction industry.
TheLastModerate982@reddit
Bro I work on the development side. Construction only happens after a long period of approvals, finding equity, finding a lender, etc. All these deals currently under construction take a long time to get to that point.
clewtxt@reddit
Yep, and that financing happens close to starting. The jobs wrapping up were financed when rates were low. The jobs just coming out of the ground weren't.
TheLastModerate982@reddit
What do you mean “financing when interest rates were low?” I don’t think you realize that development loans are always variable rate based on SOFR…
clewtxt@reddit
Dude, you really that dense? You're making my point for me 🤣
sequencedStimuli@reddit
They could absolutely make this pencil financially with a housing component. Rates are lowering too, so unless they’re worried about Trump tariffs on construction materials, idk why they’d be unable to get financing for such a prime location.
TheLastModerate982@reddit
Most 100% market rate projects aren’t even penciling right now. If you have an affordable unit requirement without a corresponding tax abatement then you can just forget about it.
sequencedStimuli@reddit
Rates were at zero and they did nothing with the plot. HEB just isn’t serious about expanding within Dallas with any urgency. Plenty of market rate & mixed-income housing going up all over the city, including in Uptown/Knox/Turtle Creek.
noncongruent@reddit
How long have they been squatting on that prime lot next to Bishop Arts? That was a DISD maintenance facility, they bought it, scraped the lot, and since then? Nothing. That would be a great location for an H-E-B, but they've made it pretty clear that actual Dallas is off-limits for their stores.
gerbilshower@reddit
they are literally famous for this in the RE world.
they have sites ALL OVER DFW. dozens in every city and suburb.
they will only even build about 20% of them. and, of the ones they do build, half wont happen for another 10-12 years or so.
it is an integral part of their business plan. if you were to do a deep dive i swear you would find nearly 20 sites they have had tied up in DFW for 5+ years and done nothing with and no plan in sight.
noncongruent@reddit
I used to be wrapped up in the H-E-B hype, even used to make semimonthly trips down to the one in Waxahachie as a way to keep the experience while waiting for them to expand up here.
I'm over that. I'm over the hype. I've moved on. I couldn't give two shits if they build in Dallas now or not. Whatever game they're playing, I'm out.
TheLastModerate982@reddit
Rates were at zero for a short period of time. Development loans are always on variable rate loans based on SOFR.
SerkTheJerk@reddit (OP)
Exactly! I get the love for HEB, but they’re the reason why this site is a blight on the community. Now, they want to build the bare minimum, of what this site deserves.
civil_beast@reddit
Not until interest rates come down a couple more bips, anyways
TheLastModerate982@reddit
Correct
sharknado523@reddit
I like that QuikTrip. As an Uber driver, it's one of the few places in Dallas where I can reliably go in and take a piss between rides.
noncongruent@reddit
I'm trying to figure out why this is even needed here? It's 3.6 miles from this location to the Central Market on Lover's, an 8 minute drive or 13 minute transit trip with a minimum of walking.
rooost02@reddit
What about the terrible CVS, worst land use ever
ThisCharmingDan99@reddit
Yea, and we lost (the original) The Loon because of it!!!!
GregJonesThe3rd@reddit
Please send feedback to Councilman Ridley and Plan Commissioner for District 14 Melissa Kingston paul.ridley@dallas.gov melissa.kingston@dallas.gov
KawaiiDere@reddit
I’m shocked they’d put it down there. Seeing the render photos I thought it was planned for around where I live (we have a lot of empty lots and grass in Plano). It looks like it’d fit in great (parking garages for retail are rare, but appreciated), just not for anywhere downtown (I thought uptown was a branding thing). What a terrible design for downtown though
00Stealthy@reddit
yes the blight of the entire neighborhood rests upon one undeveloped plot of land-and WTF you think people taking DART can afford to shop at a CM?!?
Htgn2dallas@reddit
Melissa is right in that Uptown should be dense, and CM should reflect that density. The issue is that this is a game of chicken, where HEB/CM can sit on that land for as long as they want to until they get what they want. Given how terrible Dallas’s permitting office is and how popular HEB is, I think CM has the upper hand here. I guess we’ll see how this plays out.
YaGetSkeeted0n@reddit
Threadly reminder land value tax would solve this to some extent (can’t just sit on undeveloped / low value land for ages)
civil_beast@reddit
The permitting office used to be great (pre Covid). I have hopes to a return to form, but I am probably alone in that camp
BamaPhils@reddit
There were additional resources put into the permitting office recently that should help a lot. DMN said recently that their waiting time was cut in half for October compared to September
dallaz95@reddit
Holy fuck! It’s worse than I thought! No way that they can think that this is appropriate for Uptown. Especially, next to the west village.
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
No, we live in a food desert in Uptown. It's badly needed and there are plenty of other blocks that can be mixed use (right across the street the entire block can be re-purposed). There are at least 4-5 entire blocks in Uptown/West Village that can be mixed use.
dallaz95@reddit
Food Desert? There’s a Walmart on Hall St, Whole Foods on McKinney Ave, Kroger and Target across Central, and Tom Thumb on Field St. How’s that a food desert?
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
The Whole Foods is a city version and limited in selection. The Walmart doesn't have an extensive grocery business (produce and LOTS of processed foods). And Uptown needs a walkable option.
darkblueshapes@reddit
You don’t think CM is going to be equally as limited as Whole Foods?
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
No, it's going to have space for cooking classes (also usable for community groups), it'll be large.
darkblueshapes@reddit
lol space for cooking classes limits actual grocery selection. The WF on McKinney is actually bigger than the Lemmon one I think. It’s really not that small.
clewtxt@reddit
No it's not. And you don't know what food desert means if you think uptown is one...
dallaz95@reddit
I Disagree.
Based on the design, this will not be a walkable store. That’s why I’m against it. There’s nothing in this design that encourages anyone to walk here. Most ppl will be driving based on its extremely suburban design.
This area is suppose to be new urbanist. So, this store would be the exact opposite of what this area is suppose to be.
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
Yes, I live one block away. It will be walkable. And where do you live btw?
dallaz95@reddit
What’s walkable about it? Please tell me the pedestrian infrastructure that’s in place that you see?
What does that have to do with my point? I live in the City of Dallas, any more questions?
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
Oddly, I live one block from the proposed new store. Uptown is an extremely walkable neighborhood. It fits the classification of a "15-minute-city" concept. We need a high-end, walkable grocery store. The block has been vacant for 8+ years.
Littlecat10@reddit
Why can’t they do like the Whole Foods on McKinney with CM on bottom, apartments on top?
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
They had planned on that. With interest rates high, and lesser need for office space, that killed the deal. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if they build it so you can put a high rise on it eventually.
LordOfLove@reddit
Building a high rise building requires specific foundations and structures like elevator and stairway cores that wouldn't be required for a basic 2 story structure, there's no way CM would pay to future proof a building with clear corner-cutting
clewtxt@reddit
It had nothing to do with interest rates, as they were very low at the time. Source: I worked on the project.
HillCountryCruise@reddit
Food desert in Uptown?!? Sheesh, I've never told anyone this but check your privilege. And as if a Central Market would solve the problem of buying adorable food nearby.
Wonderful-Run-1408@reddit
Actually it would. Why don't you stay in Hill Country you hick.
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juniper-jones@reddit
I mean their food is pretty adorable 🥹
Aswerdo@reddit
Absolutely agree with you here. Hopefully this is amended to fit the needs of the neighborhood or doesn’t go through at all if this is the only option
GalvanizedParabola@reddit
I think there can be a middle ground here. Yes we need something better than a suburban CM at this location, but this area isn't as dense as the Tom thumb in Victory Park or even the Whole Foods several blocks down McKinney. It's in an area full of mid rise developments and townhouse communities. Not everything needs to be a mixed used highrise.
I think a standalone grocery store here ~could~ work if they make it city centric and pedestrian friendly. I'm not a fan of building a huge above ground parking garage, but keep in mind these renders won't necessarily be a final design. Just a few tweaks could turn this into a huge value add for the area.
dallaz95@reddit
Building height does not equate to density. Many of those low rise apartments and townhomes are packed with people.
Also, it needs to be mixed use because this is on McKinney Avenue — Uptown’s Main Street. I feel like it needs to match the West Village across the street to make it conhesive. The West Village has a lot of street front retail with residential on top. What’s the point of having all of this transit infrastructure built and the planned two-way conversion of McKinney and Coles Aves, if housing isn’t going to be a component? Density needs to go in areas like this first because the infrastructure there can actually support it. Also, additional residences would further support the businesses in the West Village too. A combination of a major anchor store plus more people living there would boost the area even more.
AnnualNature4352@reddit
this alone makes want whatever this lady doesnt want-
Lawyer, Urbanist, Chef, World Traveler, Gardener, Volunteer, Pastafarian, and Cat Mother. Funny, loyal, adventurous, fearless, sarcastic, and very patient.
HermannZeGermann@reddit
Why? She's been an invaluable member of CPC.
DFWTexan@reddit
I don’t understand the rage. It’s a lone grocery store, moving in and renovating an existing abandoned lone grocery store. There are many other single story buildings in that immediate area, not everything needs to be a high-rise. You want 900 apartment units on top of it? That’s 900 more cars that the area can’t handle.
To those saying, they should build it in Plano or somewhere else with more land, why not build the apartments in Plano or somewhere else with more land?
InterestingPlastic01@reddit
Cheers to you for bringing some common sense decency to this discussion. These idiots are not developers and do not understand the dynamics of this site. The project was cancelled because the investment partners pulled out when it was realized we didn’t need anymore commercial office space in an already overbuilt city and we certainly do not need more overpriced apartments since CPC and Oaklawn Committee and Dallas City Council just approved the new 360’ tall monstrosity called Carlisle on the Creek that was approved in a neighborhood that zoning only allowed 36’ development on. So the trade-off is we get to keep this development one story and all of us neighbors are ecstatic that we are not going to have another 500+ cars in this dense neighborhood. And for the rest of you complainers, stay out of the argument since you do not live in the area and you were about Arlington, Plano, North Dallas and Garland.
HermannZeGermann@reddit
And how much traffic do you think this Central Market will attract?
This CM lot was in no way a trade-off with Carlisle. Those are two independent developments.
HermannZeGermann@reddit
Well for starters, this is adjacent to a DART station. If we're adding anywhere, this is an ideal place to add it.
In any case, this isn't an either-or situation. If Plano wants more apartments in Plano, then Plano can zone for it. Otherwise, it'll presumably be in HEB's interest to keep building grocery stores by right.
tisd-lv-mf84@reddit
Why do they need zoning? The property was a grocery store prior…
clewtxt@reddit
Keyword is was. Guess why it's not zoned that way anymore?
ravenwit@reddit
If you're implying it's because of ForwardDallas please log off.
clewtxt@reddit
Heb
civil_beast@reddit
They have since changed the terms of the coding throughout the city as part of an attempt densify the city.
The reason for this as an initiative goes back to tax revenue (obviously), but perhaps less obvious is the recognition that Dallas’ tax base has relatively stagnated relative to its suburban neighbors (Plano/ Mid-cities/etc), which has led the city chair to apply an overhaul to the zoning methodology. From a utilitarian plot zone- ie - industrial / commercial / residential… to a new mixed use : commercial-and-residential methodology (all the rage in us cities and townships across the country)
tisd-lv-mf84@reddit
Granting too many favors caught up with them.
civil_beast@reddit
Sprouts carried a similar gripe and eventually got what they wanted through the power of “you’ll get this or we’ll wait you out.” Honestly, as annoying as that seems - they’re largely right. The engineering costs would otherwise get swept into a much larger shared engineering cost (see Whole Foods)…
TLDR- what constitutes bad faith? It’s a corporation? Either tell them you’re willing to hold on this proposition or not. If they call for a town hall meeting it’s likely going to be superceded..
OR
You grant them a tax break to sweeten the deal.
Nozzlerack@reddit
Land Value Tax would fix this
civil_beast@reddit
Potentially, but that’s a state level cudgel that has zero chance of passing when Houston also exists within the same state.
gerbilshower@reddit
yea the right move here by the City is to incentivize what they want to see.
theyre in a tough spot trying to hold HEB's feet to the fire on this one. usually municipalities win these arguments swiftly with developers. but HEB isnt a developer first - they are a highly sought after grocer that residents love. and they have political sway as well.
its going to be a knock down drag out if nothing gives way on either side imo.
HermannZeGermann@reddit
The City wins this battle, unless someone runs for city council (and wins) in D14 on this platform. City Council doesn't want this. CPC doesn't want this. OLC doesn't want this.
The City beat WalMart which tried to open a Sam's Club across 75. And that lot was less dense and highway-adjacent and not near either DART station or the Trolley. The only thing HEB has going for it is the name cache.
And the City already accepted HEB's original proposal 8 years ago. If they now accept HEB's much shittier proposal, that just lets developers know that everything and anything is up for renegotiation.
gerbilshower@reddit
everything IS up for renegotiation. there just may be a price to pay for trying...haha. you generally don't want to piss off folks at the city as a developer, they can be very petty and vindictive.
im not arguing that the City wont win. but time and pressure from other sources could change things over time. who knows. id rather have the mixed use development if i was a resident of the area for sure and i think the City is doing the right thing by putting their foot down.
but, you cant just wave a magic wand and MAKE a deal work financially. if it doesnt pencil - it doesnt pencil. no one will do it, and that's where this one is right now. HEB can't do the previously approved version - they will lose money and they know it. the end of this is either 1) no one does anything until the economics of the deal improve or 2) the City decides to incentivize the project they want to see or 3) HEB just sells it - but any buyer will have understood the saga and know what the City is going to require here. so they pull and plan together and go 'welp, that doesnt work, nevermind'.
civil_beast@reddit
As is tradition .. sigh..
inarchetype@reddit
Your right, the dilapidated closed Albertsons in the middle of a bighted empty parking lot that we 've been looking at for the last 20 years or thereabout is so much better.
SerkTheJerk@reddit (OP)
Lol It hasn’t been vacant for 20 years. It has been vacant since 2016 because of Central Market doing. They decided to close the store and sit on the site for years, until they decided to develop it.
Nozzlerack@reddit
Land Value Tax would fix this
Kahedhros@reddit
Sounds like that was their plan all along lol. The old bait and switch!
SerkTheJerk@reddit (OP)
Related:
civil_beast@reddit
Wait - so what is the text in this post referring to?
jamesdukeiv@reddit
The image in the article is just the far end of this same design. It’s nowhere near what was originally proposed.
jamesdukeiv@reddit
Not only does it look bad and is inconsistent with the development standards for the area, those Lumion renders are amateurish and make it look even worse than it is. Who is the design firm on this?
PresidentEfficiency@reddit
Looks like an elementary school. I'm not against it though
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
What if it were an actual elementary school instead of a building to store cars?
That’s the point. There is an enormous opportunity cost here. Land is precious in Uptown. This parking garage is the least useful thing you could possibly do with this land.
InterestingPlastic01@reddit
Don’t you think the people who bought the land would love to put the highest and densest development on the land if that is your argument. They would but from a business perspective, a paved parking lot is better than another empty hotel or empty office building and god knows we have enough expensive apartments . And for the dreamers who think this would ever have been affordable housing, I have some land available in Russia if you are interested.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
The people who bought the land have to comply with mandatory parking requirements.
The apartments are only expensive because there aren’t enough of them. Build more and the prices will come down.
InterestingPlastic01@reddit
That is not how pricing works and it’s all about market dynamics. If you want investors, they want returns on investments and they are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. And yes, there are parking mandates because this is a city that requires car ownership to commute.
matchaflights@reddit
Where did Melissa get this info? If you look at the dallasites instagram they’ve posted something drastically different.
beardlesswonder@reddit
District 14 Plan Commissioner vs an instagram account that, I assume, will post whatever you request if you pay enough.
sketchingwithpencil@reddit
The second picture in Dallasites post is from old renderings of old plans for the site. Since then, HEB apparently lost its development partner on this along with the will to fully redo the site. Hence these disappointing renderings.
crit_crit_boom@reddit
Damn it’s almost like companies are bad.
Mistful_Sunrise@reddit
it looks like a fucking prison, can they just use something similar to the arlington heights location, thats a far better design!
InterestingPlastic01@reddit
Their new design is based on a collapsed commercial real estate market and I love the fact its not another 360’ monstrosity that was just approved by the Dallas City Council over the objections of the neighbors who did not want to see an MF2 property with a height restriction of 36’ changed to 10x that height. Fk City Council for not even listening to us speakers who waited 7 hours to speak about the project and fk City Councilmen Chad West and Paul Ridley for ignoring the speakers and speaking to each other after we had waited all day long and listened to them drone on and approve the Carlisle on the Creek monstrosity. It’s great to see a big open space be freed back up by a very walkable grocery store destination in an all-to-urban area. And a huge thanks to Central Market for not monopolizing the space with some major urban blight. The Urban Space does not have to be taken up by high rises and not sure why you think an urban gas station with excellent gas prices and an beautiful new urban Central Market that also is not trying to use each and every inch of space.
jCost1022@reddit
I couldn’t give two shits what it looks like. Uptown is already gentrified to the max why do people care what it looks compared to a building that’s been sitting empty and vacant for years?
Keep_Plano_Corporate@reddit
It is fun to be a twenty-something urbanist—until you get married, have a few kids, and move to McKinney for better schools (and an actual HEB).
pacochalk@reddit
Because they have this fantasy that the owners of that property will develop low income housing on top of CM just for funsies and because they're nice people.
civil_beast@reddit
You definitely get a vote on it if you live in district!
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
It’s not about what it looks like. It’s about the opportunity cost of what the land dedicated to parking could be instead. How many housing units? How many shops and restaurants?
How much more tax revenue for the city that now has to hire 900 more police officers?
This isn’t a Walmart in Prosper. It’s a grocery store in the heart of Dallas’ urban core. A building just for cars is objectively stupid.
zeroonetw@reddit
There is a HEB in Houston’s Heights neighborhood that is similar style to this. You can still walk to it with ease and you know what…. It’s convenient and improves the area.
Also am I missing something? The rendering Dallasites posted looks like they have good pedestrian access.
I think everyone forgot CM’s original plan which was to build at the corner of Lemmon and Reagan back in 2014. Instead, because they acquired the Albertson’s location, they will build an apartment building.
Keep_Plano_Corporate@reddit
That pocket in the Upper Heights area in Houston was one of the less desirable areas in the Heights. There was going to be a little fight about doing that there because that particular HEB has become a catalyst for revitalization in that specific area of the Heights.
By comparison, this plot of land is about the worst-kept large plot of land in a very nice, desirable part of Uptown.
hammy35@reddit
can’t speak to the oak lawn aspect, but i live a few blocks from heights heb. it’s great, simply. the setup is parking garage on the first floor, store and partial parking on second floor. it occupies the entire city block. but houston is far more lax than dallas on zoning and the neighborhood is much more similar to the M streets than uptown dallas. i walk to this one probably 2/10 trips (mostly due to carrying heavy stuff or all the current road construction).
there’s another heb on washington ave. similar to what this post seems to prefer. it’s retail and store with apartments on top. seems like a good analogy. 3663 washington ave, houston if anyone wants to street-view-ogle it.
Blown_Up_Baboon@reddit
This is nothing like the first few proposals they brought to the city. I was in those meetings when it was a true mixed use building that made great use of the whole block.
Blown_Up_Baboon@reddit
The original McLemmon plans included office/hotel/parking/residential space and possibly an entertainment venue. It was ambitious and it would have benefited the city, not just CM. As much as I want an HEB/CM close to my home, I don’t want this.
darkblueshapes@reddit
Boy do I agree about the fact that CM has just been holding on to this shit too! Like these plans have been in the works forever. I’m SURE they could find investors to make it a mixed use development. But they probably have lost too much money sitting on it and now are just trying to make the quickest fix possible.
krel08@reddit
Definite bait and switch scenario. I moved to Uptown in 2014, Albertsons closed shortly after, I moved away in 2019. Im moved back to Uptown in 2023, and much to my surprise that empty lot was still....empty. While anything is better than what is wasting space there now, this would be an incredible waste of space given where it is. . More affordable rent means build more apts on top to justify a massive parking garage. Look at the Whole Foods concept on McKinney. This just feels like a "you will take what we offer", which is at the company's discretion but this design would look terribly out of place in Uptown at this point. Im fine with another grocery store as the Uptown Tom Thumb is a glorified convenience store
dallaz95@reddit
Yep. A bait and switch happened in 2014, when a developer tired to build a suburban-style shopping center anchored by Sam’s Club next to Cityplace Tower. The neighborhood sued and won the case in 2017. Then the developer sold the property. Now, a new developer is building The Central development on that site.
ravenwit@reddit
Wasn’t this originally supposed to be 900 apartment units? And construction was supposed to start in 2022? Lol
SerkTheJerk@reddit (OP)
Yep. It feels like a bait and switch.
SadatayAllDamnDay@reddit
More like they couldn't get the zoning change to go through. It was already zoned for commercial.
SerkTheJerk@reddit (OP)
They already rezoned this site multiple times for their previous plan.
Gilamath@reddit
I'd expect to see this in Southlake, Addison, or Plano. They want to build this next to a DART station?? There should be laws against this. Transit stations are prime spots for good housing that can improve QoL for new residents while helping growth for the whole city. A building like this wouldn't just squander the potential of the station, it would actively harm its prospects by incentivizing more vehicle traffic and less pedestrian access. Awful
dcype159@reddit
That shit looks like a middle school lmao
Gotham20@reddit
Their other Dallas-area stores don’t even look like this. Wtf.
acorneyes@reddit
did they use ai for that first pre-vis?? why does the car looks so fucked up??
uncle_yugo@reddit
It’s a grocery store in an overhyped part of town that will likely get torn down and redeveloped in 20 years anyway. Just like everything else in Dallas. Uppity Uptown should get over itself.
hardleft121@reddit
looks nice
vayaconburgers@reddit
But we could have a fenced off vacant building for a few more years!!! It’s what uptown deserves!!!! (The NIMBY outrage is really something special when it’s masqueraded as “urbanism”.)
FruityPebblesBinger@reddit
Exactly. A lot of strong opinions from the armchair urban planners here.
OddS0cks@reddit
I mean the city with actual real urban planners agrees hence the zoning
dchirs@reddit
Even an armchair urban planner knows that this isn't the kind of design we need in this location.
civil_beast@reddit
Counterpoint - if you insist the zoning rules for the smaller / less established outfits that get less in the way of tax writeoffs…
And you’ve spent twenty some odd years building out these density proposals..
Then personally, I’d wonder whether they’d be willing to work with a co-developer, and rent the building over the RE that they own.
Otherwise it’s an expensive covered-land-play on top of a new build, which is frustrating
tap_in_birdies@reddit
Disingenuous to call commenters here NIMBYs. The backlash is due to a lack of planned housing units. NIMBYs typically refer to people who don’t want additional housing in their area.
vayaconburgers@reddit
I hardly think calling a politician, who vocally opposes plans for higher density development, a NIMBY is disingenuous. I am certain Melissa would be just as critical, if the development included multi-family housing. Regardless, I generally refer to people as NIMBYs when they want to control someone else's land use because they think their personal preferences somehow have a greater value than the free market.
OddS0cks@reddit
“Free market” lol
ElGranQuesoRojo@reddit
You completely misunderstand her issue w/CM. She is upset b/c of the LACK of housing that CM was supposed to provide w/the redevelopment of that land.
dchirs@reddit
She's clearly pushing for more density in this case.
The fact is that H-E-B made promises about what they were going to do with the land when they acquired it, and now they're trying to go back on those promises so that they can make even more money.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
Nicer than so many better things that parking garage could be?
Parking is a waste of space in a place like Uptown.
hardleft121@reddit
getting worked up about the design of a parking garage, is out of touch
read the room
people are having trouble affording basics. this is all goofy nimby elitist pearl clutching. and gross.
clewtxt@reddit
Central market is not a place for basics...
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
The way land is used in our cities is one of the things most impacts affordability. If we didn’t piss away so much land on parking, we’d have a lot more housing and rent would be cheaper.
hardleft121@reddit
parking is causing the rent and housing prices to accelerate.
yeah right
tap_in_birdies@reddit
Parking lot quotas lead to higher building costs for apartment buildings which indirectly causes rents to be higher to recoup investment. The proposed CM plans forgo adding new apartments in lieu of parking means that the city’s inventory of housing doesn’t increase and therefore doesn’t help lower the cost of living/rent.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
I mean… it demonstrably is.
To believe otherwise is to believe that land is free.
battle98@reddit
I’ve always said opening a central market will help people afford groceries
hardleft121@reddit
/r/woosh
people not being able to afford basics isn't a commentary on the price of food at this grocery story. it is about complaining about something as meaningless as a parking garage design
samz22@reddit
Don’t let Melissa find out 😭 she’s gonna want to setup meetings with you to discuss how you’re incorrect and how she’s right.
OddS0cks@reddit
Good! Sam’s club tried to pull the same shit on 75 and Blackburn and got struck down. Now we’re getting a major mixed used development there instead.
HOMO_FOMO_69@reddit
Geez that property has been abandoned so long... I remember when it was a SunFresh Market and when it shut down we were so excited it would become a HEB or CM.... then I moved a few years later... crazy that it's still just empty
ranrotx@reddit
HEB is basically a Dallas slum-lord at this point. They buy and horde property (I think they also own the building here La Madeline used to be on Lemmon and the lot next to it). They should have either developed it a long time ago or let it go to someone who will actually develop something that will benefit the community.
Furrealyo@reddit
“Why won’t HEB open a store in Dallas?!?!?”
hunnyflash@reddit
Who knew that it's more costly to open stores in a city vs. the suburbs?
Color me surprised.
clewtxt@reddit
Because of central market. They are the same parent, but entirely different entities.
petedaheat87@reddit
I can only imagine the traffic 😪
GregJonesThe3rd@reddit
Email her. Email Paul Ridley. Email Uptown Dallas Inc. Email the Oaklawn Committee. Email Central Market itself. They need to know this ain’t gonna fly without some changes. It SHOULD be mixed use with housing. If it isn’t, it needs to be better than this.
ParfaitAntique734@reddit
Buildings are not made how they used to be. Architecture is a luxury nowadays.
MasterMarcon@reddit
I hate that H-E-B did a bait and switch here. There’s clearly a market for more development in the Uptown / Oak Lawn area. There’s a mid rise going up on Carlisle and Hall near the Katy trail, a high rise on Turtle Creek and Fairmount, a high rise just got built across the 75 near Kroger, and there’s a 19 story Marriott being built (and blocking off roads I use to leave my apartment, even on weekends 🙄) on Hall just off McKinney.
I live right next door to this vacant lot and wish that I could just stroll right over and buy some groceries. Sad that they’re holding out for something clearly not well designed for the neighborhood.
frostygoatt@reddit
such a boring design 🤣
azwethinkweizm@reddit
Does anyone have a link to the full plans for this site rather than screenshots from a Facebook post? Melissa is not a very urbanist friendly CPC member despite what she posts online so I tend to not trust most of what she has to say.
HermannZeGermann@reddit
This is why local elections matter! Melissa Kingston and Paul Ridley are looking out for the neighborhood on this one.
The previous D14 councilmember (David Blewitt) and his unqualified City Planning Commissioner would have allowed this abomination.
Uptown is urban, and this proposal doesn't come close to meeting zoning requirements or the Oak Lawn Plan (to which this plot is subject). As far as I'm aware, this hasn't even gone through the Oak Lawn Committee planning board yet, and should hopefully be DOA when it does.
This is nothing more than a blatant bait-n-switch by HEB. They presented a mixed use development 8 years ago, similar to the Whole Foods down the street on McKinney. Which everyone was excited about -- and that's the development that was approved then.
Fast forward 8 years, and HEB hasn't built what they said they'd build and has let this plot become a blight in Uptown. That is entirely HEB's own doing. If HEB wants this plot to not be a blight, HEB needs to build what they said they'd build.
And if HEB wants to build in Oak Lawn without the apartments... Well they own an entire block along Lemmon Avenue just west of Oak Lawn Avenue. They can build there by right.
TakeATrainOrBusFFS@reddit
We need to do better than pissing away as much land as we do on parking. We’re going to need parking, but where we put it and how much matters.
Do you like cheap rent? I do. We need to dedicate less land to cars in order to get there.
You can get involved in pushing for this by joining one of our local groups focused on updating making Dallas’ policies around parking and housing.
VegaWinnfield@reddit
I thought we all loved HEB.
civil_beast@reddit
CM is nice, but following the guidance would be nicer. HEB is a corporation, in fact it is amongst the top 5 national private companies in the country.
.. hence why they are able to leverage this real estate at a lengthier timeline.
Ferrari_McFly@reddit
Why would they even propose this design in an area that has a population density of 20K+/sq mile? This looks more fitting up north.
Dallas can’t let this happen, though they already allowed a QT to be built on prime uptown real estate so who knows.
ravenwit@reddit
Oh they’re not even tearing down the original building…. You can see the same ugly tile work that already exists in the rendering.
samz22@reddit
I don’t get who Melissa is and why she cares if CM opens a store like is she the uptown mayor
sketchingwithpencil@reddit
She’s the Dallas City Plan District 14 Commissioner. Accordingly, it’s very much her job to worry about these things in Uptown lol
chimichangaluva331@reddit
I think some of the commenters here are missing the point, Uptown is a dense mixed-use style community, a very popular one at that. When building in a community like this, the focus should be on expanding on the local concept. In this case they should be sticking to their original proposal of creating housing above the store instead of scrapping that plan for suburban style sprawl in a mixed use community. It’s a bad plan from CM, and i fully agree that there should be a push to get them back to the original plan, to not only add a new grocery option for the area, but more housing as well.
dallaz95@reddit
That’s the entire point! Uptown is suppose to be an urban mixed use neighborhood. This would be appropriate for any suburban neighborhood. But not one that’s suppose to be walkable and urban.
Dry-Push-8046@reddit
if you can afford to live in uptown you can afford grocery delivery from sprouts…
Surfnazi77@reddit
Blend better with other buildings in the area
Mental-Rooster4229@reddit
It’s the best grocery store
Plenty_Software_2006@reddit
That looks awful! I hope the city or the oak lawn committee that oversees this area steps in and prevents this from happening.
dallasdude@reddit
they should go back to the drawing board on this. it looks like what we'd want to see in the burbs like plano.