Whats the deal with AR brands like Knights Armament so expensive? Are they really building a 5-7k AR , AR10?

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AthleteAggravating72@reddit

Not sure Daniel Defense is quite as premium, but I can say I made the decision based upon perceived quality as well as a sterling reputation for standing behind their product. Actually proved this out, as I had a proprietary ambi bolt catch fail due to bad alloy. They took the whole rifle back and gave it a once over within a week. That’s how i justify it to myself anyway!

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Illustrious_Pass1448@reddit

do you think KAC can be 5 - 10 times better then Daniels? thats about the difference I am seeing in cost.

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DeadDrunkNNaked@reddit

Yes.

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RatKing20786@reddit

Half because they make quality stuff, half because they have a name that people will back up a Brinks truck to say they own. Sort of like Gucci. I'm sure they make nice shirts, but a good chunk of the price comes from the fact that people are willing to pay an exorbitant sum of money simply because they want to have something made by that brand, regardless of the functionality.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Nothing like Gucci. Gucci doesn't make guns at all.

A good chunk of the price comes from the extensive R&D and quality control they perform. A good chunk comes from precision machining that requires tools that are far more expensive than the budget CNCs most ARs are made on.

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RatKing20786@reddit

I know Gucci doesn't make guns, but paying for a brand is still a thing.

The R&D part for new products I get. But there's nothing different about Knight's ARs that require a particularly expensive machine to make. I studied precision manufacturing in college and work for a firearm manufacturer doing managerial stuff and CNC programming/machine setup, and I can say with complete certainty that there's nothing about any AR that needs a super high end machine or tooling to manufacture. Haas or Doosan mills are on the low end in the CNC world and they'll hold .0005" tolerances, which is quite a bit tighter than anything you'll find on any brand AR. Last I knew Knight's was using Maatsura mills, which are going to run about 20% more in cost than an equivalent Doosan machine, but that doesn't come anywhere near justifying $200 for a stripped mil spec lower. As far as the QC goes, a decent coordinate measuring machine will ensure that everything is in spec, and is the standard across every reputable firearm manufacturer out there. No big companies are paying their employees to sit there with gauge pins and blocks and measure every feature by hand. I know Knight's makes good stuff, but it's absolutely overpriced.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

A basic run of the mill SR15 is designed to run for 20,000 rounds before first parts replacement. That's 4 scheduled maintenance intervals for a TDP grade AR, which usually runs for around 1k.

The longevity alone makes it worth the increased price, and that doesn't even touch on the improved ergonomics, cycling reliability, accuracy, durability, etc.

You aren't just paying for the brand name. The guns are intrinsicly worth the pricepoint. Just because you don't need that level of utility, doesn't mean they aren't worth it. That's very ego-centric. Price per round, they're objectively worth it.

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RatKing20786@reddit

Some of the components, like their bolts and barrels, are worth the extra money because they do actually last longer, but for individual items like mil spec receivers there's no good justification. It's the same 7075 aluminum, made into forgings by the same company that produces them for numerous other brands, machined to the same tolerances, with the same hard coat anodizing. It doesn't require more expensive machines or tools, or more time, to produce. Those lower receivers are no better or worse than anyone else's lower receivers, but they are twice the price. Of course a complete rifle of theirs is worth more than a complete rifle from PSA, but if you look at the breakdown of the individual parts, some of them are priced ridiculously. Yes, some of the price is justified by the quality of the product, but some of it is also a result of an absurdly high markup that they charge because they know some people will pay it.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

The entire KAC rifle lasts longer. All of it.

Most receivers that claim milspec have astronomical dimensional lemon rates, and they aren't actually milspec. Like PSA. Who also has a 25% headspace failure rate and is known for broken bolts in the 500rd range.

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RatKing20786@reddit

What do you think makes their standard lowers last longer than another standard lower, and warrants doubling the price? Again, I understand the price tag if theyre bringing something unique to the table, but there's nothing special about their receivers or rails that warrants their price. Not trying to be shitty, but do you have any info on the rates of our of spec parts that make it to market from from different manufacturers?

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

KAC's lower isn't standard. They are proprietary, 100% ambidextrous, use a proprietary buffer system that reduces BCG stress and reduces felt recoil, uses a proprietary 2 stage trigger considered to be among the best in the industry, and a fantastic high quality, ergonomic stock.

KAC uses deep rich type 3 hardcoat which prevents abrasion to pin holes and from external handling. Their lower parts are made of high grade steel instead of mold injected pot metal.

Those factors all play into the price. Better ergonomics, better longevity, less recoil, less BCG stress, better trigger, etc. There's nothing standard about it.

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Illustrious_Pass1448@reddit

why is the coating coming off my co-workers KAC rifle then? oh yeah they are known for that issue.

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RatKing20786@reddit

They absolutely make standard mil spec lowers. Not ambidextrous, no additional parts, no proprietary anything. Like this one for $210: https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/knights-armament-sr-15-stripped-lower-receiver/

Or this one on sale for $180 https://csfirearms.com/product/knights-armament-corp-kac-sr-15-lower-receiver-stripped/

What's different about those that would make them last longer or perform better? And for the record, type 3 hardcoat anodizing is not unique to KAC, or any manufacturer. It's standard across the industry.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Nnno, those have been out of production for at least 5 years. They were sprint run things they did when they had spare tooling, spare CNCs, spare forgings. They weren't ever a regular offering in their product line, and there was no MSRP. Dealers picked those prices, not KAC. Your entire premise is faulty.

I should know-I have one of those lowers. And I certainly didn't pay that price for it.

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RatKing20786@reddit

They ran those three different times, most recently in 2020, and they were plagued with QC issues, including the ones they didn't sell as blems. Dealers always set the final price, but I'll eat my boots if KAC was selling them to distributors at industry standard prices for a stripped lower.

They have some great products and parts but you're fooling yourself if you think they aren't marking up their products two to three times more than most manufacturers because they know people will pay it. There's a snowballs chance in hell they have more than $600 into an SR-15, and they retail for the better part of $3000. They're milking the name for every dollar they can get.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

You're proving my point. They weren't "plagued with QC issues". You're going out of your way to blatantly misrepresent the circumstances once again. They were sold as dimensional seconds because the tooling they were using to make them was old, and couldn't be replaced. Dispite notifying their client base of this very thoroughly, the customer base wanted the last run anyway. They begged and screamed for a year, dispite knowing full well what they were getting. You had to literally check a box stating that you understood that you were getting a dimensional second. It's what the customers wanted, and that's not on KAC.

Their profit margins are lower than Springfield's or PSA's on their small frame ARs, actually.

The whole idea of capitalism is to milk your name. PSA milks their name. Aero milks their name. Springfield milks their name. Milking a name isn't some moral or financial quandary. It's the whole idea behind a free market. But KAC, unlike any of the other aforementioned brands, has a product that backs the reputation of their name. Unlike Springfield or PSA, you're getting a product that's got the intrinsic value of the pricepoint.

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RatKing20786@reddit

Part of the final run of them were sold as dimensional seconds, but they sold the first runs as regular production with a warranty. And a lot of them were out of spec, primarily the trigger guard tabs and magazine wells. Yes, people still wanted the last of them at the end knowing that they were blems, but KAC sure as shit didn't sell them all as seconds.

What kind of profit margins are Springfield, PSA, and KAC making? I've got some educated guesses, but I'd love to know exactly where they stand. Those lemon rates for different manufacturers would be nice too.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Nope. They were known to be seconds at least 3 months before the final run. I was in on it. I knew loooong before the last drop. KAC told us all they would be seconds months ahead of time. In fact they told us they weren't going to do the run because of it. And the masses said they wanted it anyway, so KAC said they would fit it in the production schedule. The whole run, months ahead of time, was known and expected to be, seconds. And KAC didn't even want to do it. They sure shit sold them all as seconds.

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RatKing20786@reddit

So you're saying the first two runs in 2013 and 2016 weren't sold as seconds? Still curious about those profit margins and lemon rates when you get a chance.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Nnno, that's putting words in my mouth. The entirety of the last run was done under the auspices of being dimensional seconds.

Yew, KAC makes a lower profit percentage on their small frame ARs than PSA does

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RatKing20786@reddit

Were the the first two runs sold as seconds, or ordinary merchandise? Where did you find out the profit margins of KAC and PSA? Still waiting to see those lemon rates.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Because I've talked with both Chad Wylie and with Reed Knight.

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Vox_Turbo@reddit

How did Reed's dick taste, out of morbid curiosity?

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_banana___@reddit

Oh sweet christ you're an idiot.

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Illustrious_Pass1448@reddit

I think you are arguing about the quality of the materials versus the manufacturing. I typically build AR's using Aero Precision. I have never had another manufactures parts not fit. there is an extreme amount of Hype about one company versus the other people arguing over the time duration of one barrel type versus another when you can buy a quality Faxon Barrel for a few hundred dollars and have it swapped yearly if your that sensitive and never reach the cost of Knights armament rifles. just like how most people tout on Premium ammos. But honestly I find that they push the bullets faster then barrels harmonics are designed for and reduce accuracy in many cases. Example My Browning will put every round of Remington Corelok thru the same hole at one Hundred yards but open up as much as 4 inches with the prem's. and I have try other multiple brands but found that one to be the best.

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Illustrious_Pass1448@reddit

If I wanted to mill my own CNC where is a good place to go to get started? I have years experience in Similar fields and drafting. I am actually interested on Building Drones and some firearms parts.

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AdThese1914@reddit

Indeed

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Illustrious_Pass1448@reddit

So if you use a more expensive machine to achieve mil spec is it something more then mil spec? No!

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swaelynn@reddit

Hmm. So this rifle company charges 10x the price of a typical ar because because they don't use budget machinery and spend more time inspecting ? I can understand a fraction of this price for an accurately riffle but this is NOT Barret my friend ..

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Significant_Case6024@reddit

A typical AR? We can use a Colt 6920 as a standard, because it literally is the standard. It's built to the TDP, which defines the standards of the platform. Typical street price for a 6920 is between 8-900 dollars. A KAC SR15 E3 is 2900. That's not close to 10x the price of a typical AR. It's merely 3x the price of a typical AR. Now, let's evaluate what you get for the money.

With a Colt 6920, the first round of scheduled maintenance and replacement is about 5000 rounds. Knights' goal with their overbuilt design was to reach 20,000 rounds before the first round of maintenance and replacement. That's a 4x improvement in longevity alone. Just by that one metric, the cost per round in longevity, the KAC is worth it's asking price.

Then we can get into things like improved durability in handling, improved ergonomics with their fantastic 2 stage trigger, ambi controls, better stock. We can go into their improved durability, improved compatibility, improved accuracy, improved cycling reliability... once you start compounding those things, you quickly see that dispite being only 3x the cost of a standard AR, it's actually 10x the value.

Knights rifles are very reasonably priced for what they are, from a factual standpoint.

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Comprehensive_Case75@reddit

Bro it’s just an AR. Yes the gas system is longer and very well sealed. Yes the bolt lasts longer than most other bolts. Yes the handguards are tough. The differences are ridiculously subtle. KAC is the Supreme of the gun world.

People buy it to flex and because the name’s notoriety. They’re great quality rifles. But there’s also plenty manufacturers offering great rifles for waaaay less money.

For the price of a KAC, I’d rather just have like 6 PSA rifles. AR rifle, AR pistol, some AKs, and a few uppers. For the price of a KAC rifle, IF you can find one for sale because they do such limited drops, like Supreme. It’s 90% hype. 10% quality.

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Oso_De_Negocios@reddit

Gucci doesn't make guns at all.

You're a rube,

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BasementWarfare@reddit

Hot take: one range day my buddies and I brought out every rifle we owned and a couple thousands rounds to shoot. Noveske, Aero, BCM, PSA, DD, BCA and more.

KAC SR-15 was the only one to malfunction and had an FTE and the casing was stuck inside the chamber and couldn’t be pried out. Gun was down the whole day until we went and bought a dowel rod to hammer it out that night.

Edit: I still do love KAC stuff and was probably just a fluke instance.

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NewbRedditer@reddit

But this is more likely an issue with the ammo, not the gun

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jasusparky@reddit

Getting down to science, is what makes a good AR, with good machining tools and steel materials. Even BCA, the most budget AR company, is very close to quality As knights armament! Both companies make all parts in house, and don’t import anything. Both buy there barrel steel blanks, from same steel manufacturer, and both have hammered forged barrel cutting machines. As for the lower stripped receivers, the forged blanks, come from the same forging factories, and are identical aluminum metallurgy. The biggest difference is the trigger assemblies, buffer tube, and bcg. But most people end up upgrading the trigger assembly, and its very inexpensive, to buy a top notch bcg replacement. BCA also offers the intermediate gas system (mid length), as Knights does! The buffer spring can be upgraded to the same double spring buffer system for under $100. BCA builds everything with military specs, so that any part can be used in it, where as, a lot of companies that make proprietary parts, can only be used in that specific proprietary gun! I dont know about you, but if shtf, and one of your parts wears out, or broken, i want to be able to use any military spec part i can get my hands on! I doubt Knights Armaments customer support, will be available, to send you a part, during a shtf scenario! KISS= keep it simple stupid!

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TechnicalCaregiver67@reddit

This shit is cracking me up lol

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SkitariiCowboy@reddit

Basically with any product, you can make something that does the bare minimum to function fairly cheap.

However to maximize performance extra investment has to go in. There's diminishing returns for this too. Let's say you need to get to 50% for the product to be functional. That's easy. Spend an extra $100 and you can get that to 60% no problem. But to get to 65% you need to spend an extra $200. To get to 67% you need to spend another $300 on top of everything else already. You eventually reach a point where a 1% increase in performance costs the amount of the minimum viable product.

High end AR brands are no different. Yes, they get improved performance for that extra 5-7k. Sure you could get like 10 PSAs for that price, but a PSA is at 50% and a Knight's Armament is at 80%, to use the earlier analogy.

Ok, it's the better product and making those incremental improvements costs a lot of money because of diminishing returns. Does that extra 30% improvement actually matter? Well let me put it like this. Lets say you're jumping out of a plane and you can pick between two parachutes. One parachute will work 98% of the time, the other will work 99% of the time. Which one are you going to take? Obviously you're going to take the one that works 99%, because your life depends on it. Maybe 1% isn't a big difference, but why take that risk?

People's lives depend on the weapons they choose, so naturally they want the best one they can get because it maximizes their chances at survival.

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ahcyyy@reddit

While I agree with your analogy, I have a PSA rifle with 4-5k rounds through it and it never malfunctioned until I put a suppressor on it without tuning the gas or changing spring/buffer where an FTE occurred. Once tuned, it was the same well oiled machine before I made it a suppressed setup. I think at this point with extreme prices like a KAC SR-25, you’re purely paying for name brand. I won’t disregard the fact the sr-25 is a well built, quality, premium rifle but my point still stands. 5-6k for a 7.62 AR platform rifle is absurd and the diminishing returns after 3k max is significant.

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cherts13@reddit

What you'll realize after being in the nice gun market is that, at some point, the quality can't be improved. And after that you're buying the name and/or some "innovation" they're claiming to have made which ranges somewhere between BS and outright hindering the mechanism of the weapon.

Knights is an example of the first. Everything is top tier, sure, but you could put the same setup together for half the price. But you might just want the namesake.

In my opinion, Kimber is an excellent example of the 2nd. They make nice looking setups, and claim to be more accurate due to their design...every one I own sucks. It is tighter, doesn't fit right as a result, and is incredibly unreliable. Even taking it apart to clean and putting it back together is a horrendous experience. I'd trust a hipoint with my life before I would a Kimber, and that's quite an indictment

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Things can't be improved, but we still make leaps and bounds improvements with every generation?

Where do you get your Class 3A threaded components from if you aren't getting them from KAC?

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cherts13@reddit

When one of those generational improvements come along we'll all be sure to know it. That isn't the "improve" I was talking about. But once that generational leap is made, all companies will do it. It won't just be some ole guy claiming it.

Again, I have several Kimbers. Every one of them sucks. Even to the point where my Micro 9 Raptor literally completely seized up several times and had to be beaten by a mallet to release. Sent it to kimber 3 times and they insisted it was up to quality, and even "replaced" the innards 3rd try. I would walk around with a flip flop tied to my neck for defense before I would rely on a Kimber product. I wouldn't take their products if it were free.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Patent protection is a thing in the United States. Which is why only KAC is using the E3 bolt design, and KAC's proprietary intermediate gas system.

You keep using a Kimber as an example to dump on KAC, but KAC stuff is actually designed to work. Kimber stuff is designed to sell to ignorant hypebeasts. Before you compare the two you should probably dig into Ron Cohen's past and look at what he did to Kimber. Just because there exists one overrated shitbird company, doesn't mean they all are. That's a false equivalency.

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cherts13@reddit

I didnt say KAC was overrated or anything? They're certainly overpriced and you're paying for the name, but that doesn't mean it is a bad company. You could get a very similar quality AR for half the price, but it is expressly okay to pay the KAC price if that's what you want. But like the high end H&K things.

My point is that in those "way overpriced" firearm markets, you have two real options...the Knights Armament world where the quality is awesome, but you get a name markup...or the scam artists like Kimber who are selling you 10 cent smoke and whistles and calling it a mariachi band.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

That's literally what "overrated" means. They certainly aren't overpriced. We've been through this. Even in longevity alone, the cost per round makes them worth it. They're cheaper than a PSA or M&P Sport on the amount of miles you get out of them before they break.

Name another AR at half the price that lasts 20,000 rounds before the first spring breaks.

Wow, dude... you contradict yourself more in the same paragraph than anyone I've ever dealt with before.

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ELGauchoLizard@reddit

Let me guess.... you own a KAC.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

I have KAC parts. I don't have a KAC rifle.

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AdThese1914@reddit

Daniel Defense.

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Comfortable-Mix5988@reddit

Wrong.

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InvaderJoshua94@reddit

Brutally honest other brands that cater more to the civilian market have caught up to them. Radian Weapons, Nemo Arms, Daniel Defense etc. They are a thousand to two thousand less and come with lifetime warranty’s and your choice of colors. Heck even Springfield Armoury is making cold forged fully ambi AR’s now because it’s become so cheap. I have no idea why somone would choose KAC or LMT and deal with a one year warranty and no color choices.

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