When Will Be The World's Last CRT?
Posted by TheTaillessWunder@reddit | vintagecomputing | View on Reddit | 88 comments
We still have plenty of CRTs today, but as they begin to fail, they cannot be replaced. I tried taking my failing CRT to a repair shop, but because the tube itself was failing, there was nothing that can be done to repair it. I am not aware of any company that is making new CRTs.
So it seems inevitable -- when do you think we will see the last CRTs on Earth?
nixiebunny@reddit
The fellow who runs Sphere Research in Canada has quite a stockpile of CRTs. There are other stockpiles too. Whether they are the part numbers that match the existing chassis is a separate question.
THEtechknight@reddit
I think they're gone now. the website doesn't show any stock of tubes anymore.
Diligent_Peak_1275@reddit
The fellow that owned Sphere died a while back. They are shutting down from the website. Get it while you can.
Inventory update November 10, 2024
It seems we have more stuff than we thought. Disposing of all the electronic equipment and parts will take at least until mid 2025. We will be updating our web site regularly with new items for limited times. Do keep in touch and let us know what you might be able to use.
THe Slide Rule Universe will continue to operate for several more years and we will update the web site with all the wonderful rules we have.
Baselet@reddit
Not any time soon. CRTs from the 1930s are still found in quite usable condition.
alwaus@reddit
The 39s manufacturers wernt sure how strong to build them so they went on the side of caution and over built them.
You get to the 70s 80s 90s they were built to meet a price point, make the tube as thin as possible to save on materials while still being functional enough to outlast the warranty period.
2748seiceps@reddit
As with all things tube related the 'endgame' for CRTs as a display technology will come down to used hours and storage.
The tubes themselves will be good for possibly forever if they are kept protected and never used but every time the screen is on the timer to the end of its useful life runs. There is so much involved in calculating that useful lifetime that it's almost impossible but even with a hot cathode in cutoff there is a finite amount of time before that cathode can't produce useful levels of electrons anymore.
Not sure I agree too much about getting just out of the warranty period. TVs and arcade machines operate just fine today with tens of thousands of hours on them. They need new caps and sometimes a flyback dies but there are a ton of examples with all factory parts just doing their thing. I have a 20" and a 13" CRT TV from the 90s and they both run great without issue.
fluffygryphon@reddit
I've been rebuilding flybacks for old tvs. It's a time consuming job counting windings and wrapping new, but I think it's worth it.
THEtechknight@reddit
That sounds tedious. But its the inevitable future.
Baselet@reddit
Indeed, running them at sensible levels seems to yield very high usable hours. Especially if you settle for less brightness. Some can be rejuvenated a bit too.
nasadowsk@reddit
In the 1930s, manufacturers weren't even sure HOW to build CRTs. Even RCA had issues with the post-war 10BP4 at first. I mean, really high reject rate and life issues.
Even later on, CRT testers were a common thing on TV shops and the service van.
It really wasn't until later on, that manufacturers really understood how to make a long lasting CRT. The standard life of a P4 CRT at the end of the 50s was 5,000 hours. It might have gone up later on.
In computing, this was a real headache because terminals and such were on all the time, and often had dark filter glass to get really high contrast. I don't know if they used the P4 phosphor, but I don't think so.
And most arcades used converted consumer TV sets. P22 was it for color, P4 for black and white.
SicnarfRaxifras@reddit
Yeah but if you’ve seen a crt from the 30s you’ll know why it’s still around - those things are waaaay overbuilt.
Parking_Jelly_6483@reddit
Do a search on “CRT repair or restoration” There are more than a few. I saw an article on one of these restorers a few years ago. Apparently, they cut off the tube neck (after breaking the vacuum seal to avoid problems with sucking the glass dust from cutting the neck off into the “bulb”) and then replace the electron gun assembly. Most TV and computer workstation tubes (so the ones gamers want) are magnetic deflection ones but if the rebuilders have to, they can also include the deflection plates with the electron gun assembly.
SicnarfRaxifras@reddit
Ex radiographer here - we still use new CRT to generate X-rays so the tech is still out there in manufacturing land.
Parking_Jelly_6483@reddit
I’m a radiologist. I assume you mean CRTs to view X-rays. While CRTs may generate X-rays (remember warnings in the days of tube-type TVs about sitting too close to the screen?) they are even less efficient than X-ray tubes at generating X-rays. Until LCD displays were made in high enough resolution for displaying mammography, CRTs did remain in use for viewing. Mammography was the last specialty to switch to digital displays.
SicnarfRaxifras@reddit
No I was referring to the CRT (Cathode Ray Tubes) used to generate the X-Rays not the ones used to view. X Ray Tubes ( as used in General XR , CT, Dental, Mammo, Mobile, etc.) are a type of CRT - TV tubes came from the many other uses of CRTs, they do produce X-Rays but only low energy ones, not due to efficiency but because to operate for the purposes of TV's you only need a potential difference of 30KV which is below most diagnostic uses.
Parking_Jelly_6483@reddit
OK. I get it. The original cathode ray tube is the Crooke’s tube which is what Roentgen was using when he discovered X-rays. To avoid the same confusion I had, we typically refer to an X-ray tube as that, though we would define it by the type (fixed anode, rotating anode). A CRT was the type of tube on which we viewed images. But you are absolutely correct - an X-ray tube is a cathode ray tube. I noticed you said “radiographer”. Did you work in the UK?
SicnarfRaxifras@reddit
Australia :)
Parking_Jelly_6483@reddit
I asked because the term here (USA) is radiology or radiologic technologist. Also, here my title (teaching hospital) is "attending radiologist." Faculty radiologists I know in the UK are referred to as "consulting radiologists".
SicnarfRaxifras@reddit
Slight differences the world over - here the title "Consultant Radiologist" usually means the radiologist in charge / head of a department in a public hospital (e.g. Adults, Paediatric, neuro etc.).
hunterkll@reddit
I'll note that "restored" and "rejuvenated" CRTs still fail over time, and will fail faster - the phosphor coating inside is degrading, not just the beam gun, and a lot of times that's compensated for by just adding more power. Which.... well, you're already on the tail end of the lifespan. It works, but it won't work "forever".
pixelbart@reddit
I won't be surprised if they're still manufactured for niche industries or slow moving or heavily regulated industries where old specs still mandate CRTs.
narnarnarnia@reddit
DNR is not still manufactured but made from new old stock they bought from one of the last massive suppliers. There is a documentary on youtube that follows the repair man and curator at DNRs biggest purchaser ( the USA MOMA ) I will try to track it down.
UseHugeCondom@reddit
If you could track this down that would be awesome, sounds super interesting
narnarnarnia@reddit
I cant seem to find the doc specifically about MOMA, but I did find this interview with Kirsten Otis, from the MFA Houston and he talks about the history of Dotronix and mentions MOMA and other key customers: https://youtu.be/rHBtmPZx82A?si=dP5jx4XeY2EJzS7-
Istartedthewar@reddit
There's one place in the northeast that still hand manufactures monochrome tubes for military/aviation use, can't remember the name though.
Traditional_Key_763@reddit
CRTs as a display are gonna get swapped out for LCDs in pretty much every application
dkonigs@reddit
Many years ago I actually saw a presentation where this company was upgrading these specialized simulator display systems, which depended on CRTs. Even then, they were struggling to actually get new ones.
Their solution was to develop some sort of custom LCD contraption whose front had the same sort of curvature as a CRT so that it would work with the system.
Zombie256@reddit
They are regaining popularity, like tube speaker, headphone and guitar amps, I can see a renewed ( and most likely overpriced) new manufacture of crt displays. Just like power and signal tubes are being made new.
elvisap@reddit
I can't see it happening. The electronics and power is all single enough, but the large glass vacuum tubes, highly specialised phosphors, and extensive use of lead us all way too difficult to work with any more.
With 8K starting to appear in the consumer market already, frame rates increasing and latencies dropping, we're encroaching on alternative display technologies being good enough for even the most discerning user.
I've taken my personal collection of CRTs down from 47 to 10 just in the last few months. And now I'm seriously considering selling off the last few.
ArrBeeNayr@reddit
I've only looked into it in passing, but my understanding is that 8K screens are high enough resolution to display scan lines with the same clarity as an actual CRT. Assuming the refresh rate is good enough, I imagine there won't be much need for the majority of use cases
Splodge89@reddit
It’s not just visible scan lines though (any emulator can stick a row of black pixels between them) but the “blur” that CRTs have that some older games took advantage of.
thenerfviking@reddit
Our best bet for that is probably someone developing something for a VR platform that can mimic the effect of looking at another display. I know someone was working on a project to emulate the Vectrex like that which is admittedly a bit easier but still.
Fit-Rip-4550@reddit
No it is not. Just requires the right motivations, workforce, and equipment to do so.
elvisap@reddit
I sincerely hope you're right. I adore CRTs and would love to see them make a comeback.
But I repeat: these aren't cute electronics projects with a 3D printed shell. There's some really ugly materials and manufacturing involved, and an ever diminishing market. Nothing about it is impossible to achieve, but unless there's mass market appeal, we're talking tens of thousands of dollars per unit to cover manufacturing costs in small runs.
I'll be happy if I'm wrong, and will gladly admit that if it ever happens. I just can't see it happening due to commercial realities.
Fit-Rip-4550@reddit
https://www.daliborfarny.com/
This man is manufacturing new stocks of nixie tubes, an obsolete display technology based off of vacuum tube technologies, notably thermionic emission. He actually got a contract with NASA to produce a machine using said nixie tubes for use in scientific studies.
EternityForest@reddit
Why did they use those instead of LEDs?
Fit-Rip-4550@reddit
LEDs were not available when nixie tubes were in use.
As for now, I can only presume it is something in relation to each digit being a different distance from the last and thus the count is quicker than LEDs can provide such that with 100k fps, there is supposed to be no smearing between flickers of the counter. LEDs do have limitations.
elvisap@reddit
Yup. Check the pricing, and then scale exponentially for the complexity of a three-gun RGB tube / phosphor screen / shadow mask / aperture grill, even at small ~20" sizes.
His 4 tube clock is over £1000 / US$1200. Even at a very conservative 10x cost complexity multiplier, you're talking $10K+ (and I genuinely think that's underestimating the complexity and cost by a significant amount).
I say again: these aren't technical limitations. These are market / cost limitations. I salute anyone who wants to start manufacturing CRTs, but I sincerely hope they have generational wealth to fall back on.
Look at the anger people show at the idea of buying a $1K Retrotink-4K on top of their $2K TV. I just simply can't see the CRT enthusiast market paying real world costs for newly manufactured CRTs at "niche market" production volumes.
Fit-Rip-4550@reddit
First law of capitalism: if there is a market for it, someone will provide it.
elvisap@reddit
Agreed. And I don't see a viable market.
@ me when someone has a successful crack at it. I'll be first in line to buy one if they can do it for under $5K.
Fit-Rip-4550@reddit
If someone will buy it...
Yes I know it would be a luxury, but there is a market for luxuries. If enough demand exists, someone will make it.
Also, it would not be as difficult to produce these days as it was back then. A lot of circuitry can be managed with modern chipsets and the manufacture of the tube portion could be executed with automation solutions. It might even be possible to 3D print it.
HappyToRead@reddit
What do you do with anywhere between 47-10 displays?
elvisap@reddit
I was building arcade machines, doing tube swaps on arcade machine repairs, building bartops, etc.
Here's an example. I made this one as a gift for a friend: * http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=141846.0
But work has been killing me these last few years, and I've had a downscale in my life, so I no longer have access to my large workshop. So I've started selling off the remaining CRTs.
HappyToRead@reddit
Wow Incredible work
Ikkepop@reddit
I'm pretty sure a few companies in china still make them. I'v seen some on alibaba
escragger@reddit
I am fairly sure these are using "old" discarded tubes.
Ikkepop@reddit
that could be the case
WingedGundark@reddit
Definitely is. There are no tube manufacturers left on this planet, that ended in 2010. Every manufacturer making ”new” sets uses either NOS or recycled tubes.
UseHugeCondom@reddit
Source? I am really curious to read more on the specifics of the industry and its ending
aspie_electrician@reddit
That is neither High Definition, nor LED.
AJSLS6@reddit
The reason the tube's aren't repaird is because we historically lived in an environment where replacement was the expected and economic choice. In a hundred years when they are rare, and precious to the hand full of nerdy collectors that want them, someone will have a cottage industry restoring them or remanufacturing them. Or it could be the kind of thing a hobbyist would attempt.
80s and 90s car ECUs were considered disposable black boxes, and now when a particular unit is needed to keep a classic car on the road, theres steady work for people willing to repair them.
I could even see modern display technologies retrofitted to look and function like CRT.
kunzinator@reddit
I actually suspect at some point production will slightly increase with production of high end CRT's targeting the increasing retro gamer market.
AudioVid3o@reddit
When the supply of them starts to dry up, it'll drive up demand for them. There will be a point where it begins to be economically feasible to start manufacturing them again, possibly causing a few manufacturers to pop up for them. That, or manufacturers may make interlaced LCDs as a modern way to replace them.
Albedo101@reddit
The demand rarely reaches a level that would justify mass-production. AFAIK it's only been going with vinyl records and cassette tapes. And that's just because the manufacturing of those is relatively simple, especially vinyl.
More complex stuff usually gets "re-imagined" in more modern technology. Similar to FPGA consoles for example. I guess it's just a matter of time when somebody will make a 4:3 8k OLED or TFT, put a thick glass over it, include all sorts of connection ports, support all kinds of refresh rates and install a board with built in shaders that will simulate various CRT models. It's all perfectly doable right now, although prohibitively expensive.
flecom@reddit
that guy making the replica amiga cases is doing something like this already
Albedo101@reddit
Yeah, I had that exact product in mind, but it's still halfway there. It has amazing connectivity options, but the screen is plain old, like twenty years old, TFT LCD, 1280x1024, 19". Whatever you do with the input, the output will always look like flat panel display, that it is.
But there are examples - Analogue Pocket uses 1600x1440 screen, the exact 10x resolution of the Gameboy, and simulates various screen tech from the first Gameboy green lcd to the GBA color screen.
So... erm, analogous to that, we need at least a 3200x2400 resolution to simulate actual desktop CRTs. The 10:1 ratio seems at least good enough to simulate various CRT effects like bloom, color blending etc. Scanlines and shadow masks are easy to do, but are just not enough.
flecom@reddit
ya getting an lcd in that resolution is probably doable, but going to cost mega $$$
there might be a market but not big enough to bring it down to a reasonable price...
I know the guy that is making the phoenix monitors went through a LOT of pain and suffering from the manufacturers and the community to get those made
AudioVid3o@reddit
Yeah, I'm just saying like if in 40 years there may be very few CRTs left, it may warrant some to manufacture very basic real CRTs (like those 5 inch portable ones that were available in the early 2000s, but scaled up to like 13 inches). Maybe the arcade industry will give enough demand for replacement CRTs for failed ones on games that require them (light gun games?) and this could result in them being available to hobbyists who could design replacement driver boards that anyone could order from pcbway. I'm just sayin it's not completely impossible that real CRTs are made in the future.
Hondahobbit50@reddit
It won't happen. The last rebuilder in the us closed two years ago. It's a question of money, they couldn't support the business.
After you get a vacuum oven and chemistry, the rest is just assembled parts. I bet we will start seeing people rebuilding their own crts on YouTube in the next decade. Hell I have several nos electron guns myself.
Not to mention that building a simple be CRT is doable to anyone with a glassblowing setup and electronics lab.
I love this sub. Until 15 years ago everyone in the USA had multiple CRTS in their houses. I doubt we will even run out of new old stock stuff in my lifetime. Rare yes, but they were in EVERY HOME. This is common technology. There are likely still many on anybody's city block. Grandma's basement for example
IQueryVisiC@reddit
I tried to understand phosphor. Wikipedia tells me that it is not the element phosphor. Instead those are crystals with a bandgap. I would call those semiconductors? And there is activation?? Is this doping? How do I fuse thin plates of crystals onto the glass screen? Any gap is bad for internal reflection.. which probably happens anyway on the other side towards air. These crystals need to have a certain thickness to just absorb most of the electrons. Do we need a press and some temperature to fuse the crystal and the glass?
Something r/crt does not like to discuss: how does a low temperature cathode work? Also I never understood a field effect cathode. So electrons are emitted in all directions, how do we collimate them?
What is the problem with color? Trinitron seems to be quite simple. Just need a way to print those crystals. Pick and place? A delta mask can be etched.
takeyouraxeandhack@reddit
Making a black and white tube is relatively easy and can be a DIY project. Making the grid for a color one is not possible in a small or low sophistication facility.
olyteddy@reddit
There are at least 5 companies still making them. https://us.metoree.com/categories/102134/
redneckerson1951@reddit
There are a few shops still around that regun crt's. I do not have the names or lists with me. It is not cheap as the process is now a one off task as opposed to production line. Electron guns are available from a a supplier in Europe that bought reserves from world wide manufacturers that shut down production.
Here is a link to one rebuilder I found: https://www.thomaselectronics.com/repair-overhaul/
Rebuilding CRT's is a very precise science and deviation from a manufacturer's process opens a bucket of worms. I was acquainted with a guy that tried it back in the very early 70's. He bought commercial production rebuild equipment but was having poor yield (less than 10% successful). The vacuum demands are horrendous and the fuel consumption to heat the crt glass to the point that the turbomolecular pump could pull the required vacuum was brutal. Once the old crt was regunned, the crt was placed in an oven, heated and vacuum pulled. Something like 1 X 10e-8 Torr. The glass bake was required to boil off the air molecules that seep into the metal in the gun and interior glass layer. The interesting part was the ovens has to be pristine clean, so electric power was used. A few palces used natural gas, but propane and butane were no go because of price and they did not burn clean enough to prevent contamination.
I looked into rebuilding crt's circa 1973 while living in Tucson, Az. The entire tube had to be heated in an oven to boil off the air that embedded in the inside crt glass after you removed the old gun assembly. Once you brought up the crt bell to temperature you welded the glass of the new gun to the glass of the old bell. Then you used a turbomolecular vacuum pump to pull a vacuum of 1 * 10 e-8 Torr and had to hold it there for about six hours to remove as much of the residual atmosphere as possible. Then you had to gradually decrease the oven temperature over 24 hours to anneal the glass so its characteristics were consistent throughout. You needed about 10 - 12 ovens to make it economically viable so at any given time you had at least 8 ovens using three phase power and an electric meter that was tied down to keep the whirling disc from flying off. You can imagine what eight ovens drawing 5 - 7.5 KWh running 24-7 will do for your electric bill.
Expect a "Squeal Like a Pig" price quote from any rebuilder. Materials and Labor add up fast.
Highscore611@reddit
Most older arcade cabinets are still using their original CRT monitors from the early 80’s.
narnarnarnia@reddit
In 30 years all the capacitors will be dead and only people that can afford a roughly 1000 dollar recap repair will keep CRTs. This will be 1-5% so in 30 years most cabinets will be in art projects, fishtanks, and landfill. OLED and CRT shaders will give a perfectly fine alternative for most applications.
vinciblechunk@reddit
People pay $1,000 for a recap? Shit, time for me to change careers
narnarnarnia@reddit
A simple recap might go quick with a schematic, but less and less people perform it and you are typically looking at 4-5 hours at least for some of these TVs. An experienced technician makes 100+ per hour in a metropolitan area. If the problem requires diagnosing, it will likely become a project where the repair outweighs the value of the set. In most cities there are 30+ watch repair shops but rarely even a single repair shop that will take on vintage electronics gear. There are just too many consumables in each set and it requires mechanical and electrical expertise.
Fit-Rip-4550@reddit
There is one advantage analog technology has over its digital brethren—speed. Anything requiring near instantaneous calculations from constant input and displays will be analog. Thus, analog will persist in use for specialized applications that demand continuous input and output to control precise functions.
t_Lancer@reddit
Thomas electronics make them. I think they are based in the UK. Though the last order we did cost 50.000€ for I think 20 CRTs. Mind you they are 1" Monochrome and are used in the helmet mounted heads up display for military helicopters.
But yes I have watched big buck bunny on one of them. Not quite Apple Vision VR stuff but yeah. So as long as those helicopters are flying, CRTs will be needed for helmet sights. Which currently I think will be at least 2032.
ssh-agent@reddit
Certainly not in our lifetimes.
CrabBeanie@reddit
I think there will be a market in the future, and maybe even new manufacturing. Nobody would have guessed that there would be crowd funded or independent developers making games for consoles from the 1980s 45 years later. May even be new technology eventually that makes them easier and lighter to build. Who knows!?
The amazing thing when you think about is the billions upon billions of these things that were around for decades and now.... how many are left? Obviously a lot ended up in junk heaps and recycling and are unrecoverable. But there must be a lot of stock still floating around and will continue to for some time.
Steelejoe@reddit
I would love to see some DIY their own CRT. Kinda like the guy who is building his own processor from the silicon up. I am sure you would need some specialized equipment but it might be cheap now?
dataslinger@reddit
I think there are still warehouses full of difficult-to-recycle CRTs because of the lead in the glass. Not all of those recycled were dead. Some were just due to upgrades to flat screens.
horse1066@reddit
still being made apparently: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/OEM-new-Model-CRT-TV-17_60840338880.html
Martipar@reddit
WHo knows, the best thing to do is to use them occasionally, or not at all, and use more modern and crisper display methods.
Flybot76@reddit
No, modern TVs frequently don't make dvd, videotape or vintage games actually look crisp and that's why most of us are doing this. We all know about HDTVs and nobody needs to be 'reminded' that they exist.
kapege@reddit
Taking "crisp" and CRT in one sentence is, well, courageous. My old 480s movies from CD looks way better on my 4k monitor than ever before. It's like stating vinyl records sounds "better". No, they sound familiar, but the sound quality is worse than a good FLAC. Or analog pictures: They look nice and like in an old family album, but a digital photo is superior in all meanings: resolution, aperture range, color gamut and so on.
Martipar@reddit
There are plenty of perfectly viable upscaling options available, my relatively ancient Blu-ray player which I use for DVD manages to upscale excellently and all the emulators i use manage to upscale graphics excellently too. Playing something like Link's Awakening or Sinistar on a big screen with super sharp graphics is superb.
hdufort@reddit
Nooooooooo 😰
do-wr-mem@reddit
If you count monitors in the collections of places like CHM, probably a very very long time from now
briankanderson@reddit
They're still being refined and produced for medical image viewing as they (at least for now) offer greater "resolution" and contrast (slightly different meaning than the consumer term) compared to the truly digital screens of today.
Diligent_Peak_1275@reddit
Funny. I work for a major US hospital and CRT's are gone and all have been for a while. LCD monitors made by Dome and others have replaced all of the CRT monitors for a while now.
Diligent_Peak_1275@reddit
Description Widescreen 4MP color medical display CXtra™-controlled DICOM for life Flexible, lightweight, low-power design Quality image viewing without reflective glass DOME GX4MP Specs
Calibration kit
Calibration Kit – DOME Photometer . American College of Radiology guidelines still recommends the periodic use of a calibration kit to insure that diagnostic integrity is maintained over the life of the monitor. Some states now require the use and documentation of a calibration kit. Do not confuse this device with the front sensors on most diagnostic medical displays. They are not the same.
What You Get:
GX4MP LCD Monitor Only, No Video Card. GX4MP -2560×1600 landscape – DVI input, CXtra software, display driver and cables included.
List Price: $5,919.00
Interesting-Ad1803@reddit
CRTs can be repaired but it takes special equipment and know-how. If you want to be in the business of repairing vintage CRTs, that might be a business opportunity for you.
Overall, they are relatively simple devices and the most common problem is air leaking in. Often all they need to be be evacuated again and they are good for another 50 years. The 2nd most common problem is the filament breaking. Again, this can be repaired but it's a bit more involved. You take out the neck, replace the filament, put it back together, and evacuate the tube.
Puzzled_Job_6046@reddit
I worked in a factory that manufactured them, God, that was an interesting place.
Shaner9er1337@reddit
2125
sjclynn@reddit
Just like with most mass-produced products, there are exemplars forgotten on storage shelves, basements and garages. There are probably a few pallets of them in some warehouses. This isn't to say that they can be taken off of a shelf and work immediately. They will probably need to be re-capped in order to do that. I hope that there will continue to be hobbyists who have an interest in the legacy of systems that we bought, used and then discarded over the years.
bazilbt@reddit
That's a wild thought. I'm not sure if we will live to see the last working ones. But someday we will run out of them. Considering how many their used to be when I grew up it's crazy to think about. But we do see a lot of technology totally fade from production.