My conspiracy theory.
Posted by cathartis@reddit | collapse | View on Reddit | 363 comments
Donald Trump has just won a second term. Many on the American left are scratching their heads, asking themselves "what went wrong"? However, every commentator I've seen seems to be focusing on small picture details. Attempting to analyse and dissect. Why did you many young men vote for Trump etc. IMHO, they are missing the wood for the trees. The American Democratic Party has been comprehensively out manoeuvred, and this is all part of a conspiracy that has been twenty years in the making.
Generally conspiracy theories have a bad name. There are lots of conspiracy theories out there. Most of them are complete bollocks. However, just because there are plenty of bullshit conspiracy theories out there, that doesn't mean that powerful and wealthy people never come together and decide our futures behind closed doors. Let me give you an example of exactly that.
In the 1950s both America and Britain enjoyed what has become known as "the post-war consensus". Taxes on the wealthy were high, but in return, there were high levels of government investment in society. This was based on the theories of the British economist Milton Keynes. Most people were generally supportive of this situation, although the wealthy bristled at the high levels of taxes they were forced to pay. This means that when a right wing economist, Milton Friedman, started preaching the opposite - calling for much lower taxation, and for a much smaller government, many of them listened. They came together, and funded a series of "think tanks", which would take in income from these wealthy people, hide the identity of their donors, and work full-time on turning out propaganda in favour of these ideas. Examples include the Heritage foundation (US, 1973) and the Adam Smith Institute (UK, 1977). Once created, these think tanks were also favoured by other large industries wishing to sell their agenda to the public, such as the tobacco lobby.
When Milton Friedman first started, his views were initially fairly obscure, and confined to debates between academic economists. However, in the 1970s, the world changed. Massive oil price rises caused economic shocks in both America and the UK. Much of the public saw their countries as being in serious trouble and started looking for a new approach to government. This allowed the views of the think tanks to go mainstream. Politicians that brought into this approach, such as Thatcher and Reagan, rose to power. The think tanks were with them every step of the way - providing consultation, policy advice, and even, on occasion, writing speeches for the politicians to perform, or providing drafts of new legislation. Their philosophy - neoliberalism, flourished, and still dominates our politics to this day.
I suggest to you that before the Heritage foundation was founded, in the early 1970s, groups of wealthy businesspeople would have met with each other, and discussed how to co-ordinate their activities and push their agendas. The Heritage foundation, and similar groups, were a result of these meetings. But would it be wrong to call such meetings a conspiracy? One that ended up reshaping the entire politics of the western world?
Fast-forward to the early 1990s. Big business faced a new challenge. Scientists were becoming increasingly concerned about climate change, and began warning the public of potential consequences in dire terms. Measures to combat climate change, were clearly a challenge to major industries, such as petrochemicals, and the automotive industry. However, many intellectuals saw that ultimately in order to properly combat climate change, we would need to move strongly away from unchecked capitalism. An economy based on mass-consumption, and international competition to exploit resources couldn't possibly restrain itself. This is why many of those most closely connected to the issue - such as climate campaigners, and green political parties, positioned themselves firmly on the left. However, I don't believe that right-wingers are stupid. They saw the same arguments, and realized that the logic of climate change threatened their entire political philosophy. So that's where my conspiracy theory comes in. I admit that I don't have evidence. I'm just trying to make sense of the world around me and adopt the simplest explanation that fits all the facts. I believe at a series of meetings in the 1990s, right wing intellectuals would have come together with representatives of major industries, such as the petrochemical and auto-motive industries, and workshopped a series of approaches to combatting the threat of climate change politics. As a holding action, they engaged in denialism. But that was never going to work long term, as the real world effects of climate change started to bite.
This was very analogous to the creation of neoliberalism, and has reshaped right wing politics to the same depth. This led to movements such as the alt-right, the tea party, and ultimately the messianic pro-Trump movement. Whereas liberals were happy to present an intellectual face, and at least attempt to debate with the left on equal terms, to the alt-right that is anathema. Because ultimately on any debate conducted on an intellectual level, they will lose, and they know it. So they don't. They indulge in a series of cheap tactics to disrupt intellectual debate. They condemn experts, and mock the educated. In this respect, their approach mimics that of 1930s fascists, such as Goebbels:
There was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the stronger, and this will always be "the man in the street." Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect. Truth was unimportant and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology
Similarly today, we see the right selling itself as strong and masculine, and mocking liberals as weak and effeminate. They deliberately pick fights that allow them to display this image (e.g. immigration, trans rights). They mock the left as being culture warriors, and skip over the fact that the alt-right consists of nothing except culture war. There is no substance behind it - just emotions and image. The aim wasn't to win the debate on climate change, but to create a society where such a debate can't possibly take place in the mainstream. To this end, they have pushed their viewpoints via news channels such as Fox, by funding sympathetic and suave public speakers such as Ben Shapiro, and using money to heavily push their views on the web and via talk radio. This fed back on itself. As they gained converts, more people started echoing their message.
So that's where we are today. The right didn't really try to win as the left might by debating or campaigning for a candidate. They instead reshaped our society to the point where the election of Donald Trump became an increasingly likely result.
Nervous-Way8829@reddit
Dude, in America, liberals/democrats are on the left. Obviously there can be differences between people who specifically identify as a democrat or a liberal, but to say that they are both not on the left is either a uniformed opinion or simply disingenuous. You realize that neoliberalism and liberals aren’t the same thing, neocons and republicans are on the right, but are not the same thing., all of those are different, but some are on the “right” and others are on the “left” What are you talking about? If you meant Democrats, I could understand that, since democrats used to be the party of the south. Or if you incorrectly attributed the left and right labels because you come from another country, one where those labels don’t perfectly match up with the American version?
This kind of thing, tbh, really disheartens me. we need to do a better job at teaching civics in this great nation of ours
cathartis@reddit (OP)
Yours, not ours. I am British, not American. I would agree with you about one thing though, political education in the US is exceptionally bad. This is exaggerated by highly partisan US media.
I'd suggest you should travel more. From an outside perspective, it's blatantly obvious that when armed, masked military patrol your streets, you no longer live in an entirely free country. It's no longer about left vs right, but fascism vs democracy.
Nervous-Way8829@reddit
Using that language is why people like Charlie Kirk have been killed, and why Trump had multiple attempts on his life. Growing up, we all learned how evil Hitler and the Nazis were. Practically Satan, at least in my view. Starting in middle school, I remember us all joking around with the thought exercise of “what would you do if you could go back in time and kill Hitler before he rose to power?” Everyone who wasn’t a racist, skinhead, or nazi sympathizer type, said that they would be more than willing to kill Hitler to prevent the Holocaust and WW2. Who the hell wouldn’t?! Knowing what we know now, it would be unethical to NOT do EVERYTHING in our power to prevent that evil genocidal maniac. After the war, one of the outcomes of the Nuremberg trials was the codifying of human rights law at the UN level, which made it practically illegal to NOT kill a Hitler-type of leader in the future, as the defense of “I was just following orders” is no longer a valid excuse. Everyone who was part of the Nazi party, from Hitler Youth to SS officers in the camps, to Hitler’s inner circle, were deemed culpable in the atrocities committed by their nation. Can you not understand why calling Trump and his supporters being called Nazis could create a situation where good people advocate for the assassination of groups dehumanized by those name-calling tactics? Let’s just say for sake of argument that Trump really is America’s Hitler, and right-leaning Americans went along with it, it would be not only moral justified, but necessary for every American who doesn’t want to go along with evil and experience the same fate as the German citizens experienced, they would have to do everything humanly possible to stop that evil. But, since Trump isn’t America’s Hitler, and MAGA supporters aren’t Nazis, using that language is totally unjustified and will lead to political violence. You know that there were plots to assassinate Hitler from within Germany?’ As a good, moral, and ethical person, I wholeheartedly support what those German were doing to try to stop the Nazis. All I’m trying r o say is that MAGA doesn’t deserve to experience those same tactics, or share the same fate.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
For the right to accuse the left of escalating with divisive rhetoric is pure hypocrisy:
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/11/trump-rally-new-jersey-trial-fascists-00157482
And I didn't mention Hitler at all. One of the problems with your education system is that it euqates Naziism with Fascism. Your accusation that I called Trump a Nazi is that it is effectively a straw man attack - albeit one born more from ignorance than maliciousness.
Naziism is simply one form of fascism. There are plenty of other historical fascist leaders - prominent examples being Mussolini and Franco. And Trump fits in pretty squarely alongside both of them.
Read up some definitions of fascism. Look at the criteria Umberto Eco gave for fascism back in 1995. Check off how many of them Trump and MAGA fulfill. It looks like a clear majority to me.
Nervous-Way8829@reddit
Yes, I’m 100% okay with it. In fact, I am ecstatic.America has been on a downward spiral my whole life. I’m ready for that American dream everyone talks about. Everyone talking about how China is the next big thing, that we should all just throw out hands up and let them take over the world. That is sheer stupidity. I don’t think you understood what I was saying. I NEVER said that you used the Hitler insult, I can actually read and write, unlike some. You said “fascism vs democracy”. I am simply saying that calling Trump a fascist evokes the evil of the first half of the 20th century, aka Hitler. My point still applies, using the word fascism in reference to President Trump is the same as calling Trump Hitler. In a democracy, if someone really was a fascist, my point stands; average Americans will hear that and become radicalized, eventually to the point where assassination attempts take place. I don’t know why you people don’t understand… If Trump really wanted to be a fascist dictator, it would be against international human right’s law to follow orders that result in the human rights abuses that go along with fascism. You know, soldiers can’t just say “But…But…I was just following orders!” You are radicalizing people, providing them cover, and the excuse to rise up in rebellion against such a fascist takeover. it would literally be justified to take Hitler out, of Mao, or Stalin, or Pol Pot. Isn’t in unconstitutional for a president to name himself dictator for life in a fascist power grab? Since that is the case, convincing Americans that he is a fascist will incite violence against Trump and his supporters. Wouldn’t it have been great if the plot in Germany to assassinate Hitler was successful? Or even earlier, and avoid the “final solution” and WW2 entirely? There are movies about it, and I don’t know a single freedom loving American who doesn’t think that the plot was a justified tactic by freedom fighters in Germany. Since it is okay to hate fascists, to rise up in rebellion against them, to hate Nazis, genocide, all of it… it leads to a place where political violence is justified, and morally righteous. But it isn’t, because Trump isn’t a fascist. He shouldn’t be removed from office, forcefully or otherwise. Would you agree that fascists shouldn’t be allowed to violate international human rights law? Would you agree that evil should be stopped at all cost as? Would you agree that, if a genocide were rally about to start happening in America, that this is a situation which should be avoided entirely? Don’t you wish that the Nazi party never existed, that Hitler’s mom had a miscarriage or was a successful artist, of that the Nazis were forcibly removed from the levers of power? How do you think any of that comes to fruition? Not through elections. The destruction of Authoritarianism, in any fashion, usually require freedom fighters on the inside to take then down. That’s all I meant. Using the word fascist is the same as using the name Hitler. They both evoke the same existential terror in a freedom and liberty loving civilian population.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
I thought about trying to write a reasoned response to your post, but I came to the conclusion that you fundamentally aren't worth my time.
I showed you a direct example of Trump calling opponents fascists way back even before the election even occurred and you are still accusing Dems of escalating by doing the same at a latter date? So what are you even saying? That Trump is the only one who is allowed to use that insult? You're not even making sense. I'm sorry but you seem to be too far gone to respond to reason.
Bye.
cstokebrand@reddit
So the right wing is way smarter than the left wing, being able to see long term and moving the strings underneath. Nah, humanity is stupid in mass and easily manipulated. The only way to change this is to educate, which neither side is doing well. The right wing is denying evolution and climate change and the left is teaching us that the most important thing is your sexual identity and the rights of the criminals and in the mean time nobody anymore knows how a bulb works and would vote for the Kardashians if they made a naked campaign.
Weak-Event-3021@reddit
What rights of criminals are you referring to?
cstokebrand@reddit
it is bad manners to get involved in a conversation that isn't yours or where you were nir invited. but you are just fulfilling your need to feel insulted right?
Weak-Event-3021@reddit
What’s wrong with the left teaching people about sexual identity?
God forbid that LGBT people feel safe and accepted.
Weak-Event-3021@reddit
What’s wrong with the left reaching people about sexual identity?
God forbid that LGBT people feel safe and accepted.
Professional_Code372@reddit
This is a wonderful read and it makes a lot of sense, I don’t think anyone would rebuke anything you’ve said in here. We haven’t been outmaneuvered, we have been rendered toothless
SpeakerOfMyMind@reddit
You may be interested in my capstone study for history/poli sci about far-right history from the 1930s to today, and some of the points you hit on are very accurate and there is a huge story here. The people that took over this movement was the Council for National Policy when it was created in 1981, which the Heritage Foundation is a part of. Anyway I made a little short list with some descriptions.
"Shadow Network" by Anne Nelson (About the Council for National Policy-- the group behind Trump, past and present.)
"Dark Money" by Jane Mayer (Title is basically the description)
"Democracy in Chains" Jane Mayer (perfect combo with "Dark Money."
"The Scheme" by Senator Sheldon Whitehouse and Jennifer Mueller (Sheldon Whitehouse explains how the courts have been bought, BUT he doesn't realize it's the Council for National Policy, so maybe read "Shadow Network" first.
"Jesus and John Wayne" by Kristen Kobes Du Mez (the history of the Christian right and how they got intertwined with Corporate America, to help change the image of Jesus into a political movement.)
"The Power Worshipers" by Katherine Stewart (This one is great to go along with "Jesus and John Wayne," similar, some parts describing the same things, but still highly recommend.)
"The Kingdom, The Power, and The Glory" by Tim Alberta (Honestly, it's not bad, it's more ground level, not broad scope, more about how people in the movement are seeing things. Could do without.)
"One Nation Under God" by Kevin M. Kruse (History of the Christian Right, Corporate America, and Government, starts in the 1930s.)
Documentaries:
People You May Know (YouTube) **Highly Recommend*** -- how data collection is weaponized and how the Council for National Policy used it to their advantage with Trump's first run and Brexit)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8YWe89X4vRM
The Great Hack (Netflix) (More about data collection)
Drain the Swamp (HBO) (At first seems like it's made for the far right, but it exposes them.)
Social Dilemma (Netflix) (More data collection)
The Brain Washing of My Dad (YouTube) (how media manipulation works)
https://youtu.be/FS52QdHNTh8?si=k4Ecp7BSFbyZXgdG
American Heretics: The Politics of the Gospel (YouTube)
https://youtu.be/B-ePCiUgD0Y?si=DXzP2iaHCSS8YEw_
Clearance and Gemini Thomas: Politics, Power and The Supreme Court (YouTube)
https://youtu.be/wJuRx1wARUk?si=TF_UWbhciWtmiXE2
God and Country (based on the book further down the list "Power Worshipers "Katherine Stewart," and was helped by and features a few other authors on this list such as Kristen Kobes Du Mez) (I think Amazon)
Let me know if your more interested in this and would love to discuss if so!
Julio_Ointment@reddit
Man I miss being in college for this same subject. Thanks for the links.
SpeakerOfMyMind@reddit
Yeah, I've graduated, and I knew I'd miss the time to dedicate to research. I'm still working on things, just obviously at a much slower rate.
I think that's one of the largest privileges that so many students miss. Though I don't know how many people obsess over certain projects. When I first started this, if I wasn't in class, I was consuming some form of information/media about this.
It broke me, because it tanked my mental health-- isolated to keep reading, and stopped sleeping after some time, and it went to hell for a few months, not only because of the time, but the realization that there have been groups of people working towards this since before my 27 years of life, and then also understanding their right at the doorstep of succeeding. Even worse, so few people are talking, writing, or making anything about them. Out of all those sources, maybe only 4 actually mention the Council for National Policy.
Julio_Ointment@reddit
I absolutely regret political science as a field of study. Tens of thousands of pages of reading, thousands of pages of writing. Philosophy, logic, truth tables, pre-law, history, ideology, political and religious violence.
My capstone was inspired by The Power of Nightmares and a deep dive into the failures that brought about the neo-conservatives and the thinkers that would become Al-Queda.
All so I can watch a population of people with a 21% adult illiteracy rate tank democracy and not understand basic civic and political/economic concepts.
It's the most frustrating thing that's happened in my life, bar none.
radiks_cargo@reddit
Hi, as someone without your level of credentials and only an outsider "hobbyist"s interest in politics, may I ask what you believe nowadays as a political prescription? I myself have begun questioning whether democracy itself, in its current form, may be an outdated form of governance in the age of social media which can fuel misinformation on an unprecedented scale. When people with zero information on actual policies supported by candidates are given a say in how an entire nation is going to be ruled, even on the surface that doesn't sound like a good idea. I know most criticisms of democracy usually come from fascists, and I do not wish to suggest doing away with democracy entirely, but perhaps it could be modified slightly, to account for misinformed / uninterested voters?
Anyway, interested to hear the thoughts of people more educated on these topics than me. I realize we're on the collapse subreddit, so I would assume most of you would reply with "I've already given up, stock up on clean water and beans", but perhaps someone has some policy prescriptions or an approach that they still would wish to see that's at least semi-realistic, I don't know. Thanks in advance for anyone's input!
Julio_Ointment@reddit
i feel classically conservative about my hyper-local community. skeptical of the government these days because of corporate control, regulatory capture, etc., but still understand that there are things we need to take care of, namely people and infrastructure.
it gets worse every election. i was a huge bernie supporter in 2016 and 2020 because of the class-based messaging. i feel like the identity politics focused messaging has turned away working people.
Professional-Cut-490@reddit
History major here, I feel you. I kinda wish I knew nothing. Ignorance truly is bliss.
Dark_Bright_Bright@reddit
Well, when you put it like that. /s
BlueEyezzz@reddit
Thanks for the suggestions! Because of this election I got into watching a fair bit of documentaries regarding (populist) media and media manipulation.
"The Brain Washing of My Dad" I can highly recommend. Such an eye opener on how people get manipulated by media, how it shapes their thinking. The end of that documentary was great (and a bit of shock how different someone can be once they are off the media diet). Social Dilemma I have also seen, another great one. Kind of the same vibe, how people change.
I also watched "Divide and Conquer: The Story of Roger Ailes" to further understand the appeal for a network like FOX. How it started as a seemingly great idea and then turned into a monster.
I might also want to suggest "Behind The Bastards" (podcast). They have some great episodes about some of these figures. I am finally listening to the 3 part series about Peter Thiel (the one that basically bought JD Vance's seat in congress). It also has a few episodes about right wing people, enough to choose from.
If you have more suggestions, by all means!
iamjustaguy@reddit
a fourth one just dropped.
alloyed39@reddit
People wildly underestimate the level of machinations Peter Thiel is responsible for.
BayouGal@reddit
In case you don’t know, Peter Thiel owns Palantir, the company basically doing AI for the military. He also was previously partners with Musk in PayPal.
Oligarchs oligarching
OpheliaLives7@reddit
I hope Tolkien’s ghost harasses that dude in his sleep. Tech bros keep ignoring core messages of stories to steal fantasy terms ugh
Bozhark@reddit
They don’t read anything but the headlines
CherryHaterade@reddit
Also, there are no elves or wizards here to help.
royalemperor@reddit
He also owns a huge chunk of Polymarket, which tons of influencers were shilling about during the lead up to the election.
daviddjg0033@reddit
Polymarket had the election odds.
HousesRoadsAvenues@reddit
I am one who didn't underestimate him. But then again, look where I am posting!
MuppetPuppetJihad@reddit
I was going to bring up those BTB episodes. Talk about reshaping society and Heritage Foundation/John Birch/Federalist Society propaganda/psyops and reshaping narratives, Peter Thiel fucking started a fake NASCAR magazine in the early 2000's called fucking American Thunder (even the name was Idiocracy) and staffed it with like petroleum billionaire think tank ghouls to push like, hyper libertarian billionaire bootstrap suck-off narratives to NASCAR dipshits. Truly incredible. What amazing ideas you must have, to have to trick people into believing them. Nothing sociopathic about that....
walkingkary@reddit
I also recommend going back to the 2 October 2020 episodes about how normal people voted the Nazis in.
NB_FRIENDLY@reddit
He's gearing up to do the whole "social credit" thing Americans believe about China on Americans by feeding all of Palantir's data to Claude.
Bozhark@reddit
Lmao America already has a social credit system
lifeofrevelations@reddit
They're only doing this with claude now since it is currently the leading AI. In a year or so they'll most likely be feeding the data to musk's AI instead.
Healthy_Monitor3847@reddit
Yep. JD Vance is owned by Thiel. Thiel is now effectively in office. Concerned doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. I work in a hospital that has been bought out by PE. Just wait. PE is going to be the death of the middle class.
4score-7@reddit
I work in the investment world. The amount of shilling for dollars that PE is doing to increase its toe hold on our economy is eye opening. They now actively pitch their business for investment (so far only to sophisticated investors, for a minimum amount of 50-250k), but those investors must also substantial assets outside of the PE investment.
When I got into the field, 18 years ago, it was stocks, bonds, mutual funds, etc. Stuff we all know and are familiar with.
These PE, and private investments generally, fall just outside of the rigid guidelines that most traditional investments fall into, to protect investors. They obfuscate the truth and make near-guarantees of their returns, and often have no historical comparisons to prove it out.
I know I’m looked at the situation from a different angle than we are discussing here, but I bring it up only to illustrate the size and breadth that PE is expanding into. We’ve leached everything we can out of manufacturing in the US. For “progress”, it’s all offshored now and the businesses themselves are being picked apart by PE vultures. They’ll be coming for my industry (finance/investment) soon enough.
Alexander_the_What@reddit
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FetidBloodPuke@reddit
Christian fascists by Chris hedges
punisher2404@reddit
Check out the work of Adam Curtis and his BBC documentaries, Century of The Self, Hyper-Normalisation, Cant Get You Out Of My Head, TraumaZone etc
InsideAardvark1114@reddit
I would also recommend: Nicole Hemmer's "Partisans" and "Messengers of the Right". "Birchers" by Matthew Dallek, "In the Shadows of the American Century" by Alfred Mccoy, "Worse Than Nothing" by Erwin Chemerinsky, and Rick Perlsteins books series on the rise of Conservatism.
Alexander_the_What@reddit
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Theox87@reddit
Understanding this problem and all its machinations is great stuff, really, seriously... But it's still missing in massive, overt, deafening silence in what exactly anyone can /actually do/ about it.
We understand the illness, we know it's terminal and has taken hold, but it really seems like there's no cure for the right wing masculinity cancer that's gutting society at the unrelenting whim of big money. I guess that's why this debate is happening in r/collapse...
Happy shitbag-fueled apocalypse everyone.
SpeakerOfMyMind@reddit
Well, this is part of a couple of years of research, and needed to be done about a year ago. It was part of graduating for my majors, therefore it had to include the history aspect. For the past year and a half or so, I've been trying to spread awareness and educate. I know some policy issues that could help, yet it's more likely that route is too late.
So what are the answers? In my opinion, community, community, community. We need to start working on, small scale, building back communication, understanding, and sympathy. These then should organically grow bigger, slowly, and begin to network, but re-learning how to do it not through online and decentralized. If at the most basic level, such as working from within people's own families, this can be done with evidence of "The Brain Washing of My Dad." Then it would need to slowly grow outside of families beginning to get into our own communities.
In my opinion, it's a slow, long, hard, and painful road ahead if we are at the point I believe we are. But it's still something, and it's what we have to work with/deal with. Outside of that, I'd suggest we begin inside/outside politics, you know, grassroots and running for local governments. Still yet, slow and long process.
Again these are my opinions, I'm also a philosophy nerd and am likely influenced mostly by anarchist and socialist philosophies. I'm trying to be one little piece of a puzzle, that is ultimately such a large puzzle it's beyond comprehension of pieces and how it may ever look. We need others to try to be their piece of this easy puzzle and find the other pieces, bringing in their ideas and creations. I may have some other ideas, but for where we are currently at, this is what I got, and there are many other opinions that I want to start working with, and hopefully will find them along the way.
(I truly dug deep for this response, it was the most positive I have been in the past two years for these issues. Hope needs to be had to have any sort of change. Hope can be argued in many different ways, but the way that I most resonate with is roughly: you may not realistically believe it will ever happen, but you see the mere possibility it could happen. In other words, I don't believe it's possible, but I believe people are more than capable of doing so, ie, my hope. Just wanted to underscore the importance of hope at this point and time, and tried to jump ahead of the semantics.
Theox87@reddit
As hopeful as this response is, I'm afraid to say that I can't imagine it being a legitimate path forward. The biggest issue I have is that I'm currently seeing, yet again, the very opposite of communities coming together. Instead, they're fracturing more than ever. The emboldened right have fully embraced their asshole side and are lauding this win in the faces of their rivals, marking a move solidly from moderates to extremists that's palpably intolerable by anyone with any sense at all. The result is that hard lines have been drawn again, friends have been lost forever, and with that fracturing comes an inevitable silence made from new barriers to interaction. We can't grow communities while shrinking them, and we can't convert the assholes we shun. The stakes are higher than ever, but with the barriers following suit, the future looks grim indeed.
RasputinsUndeadBeard@reddit
THANK YOU!
theblasphemingone@reddit
Thanks for those recommendations
cjbagwan@reddit
How can I save this? I'm on an android phone
SpeakerOfMyMind@reddit
I'm also on Android, so if it's the same as mine, to the left of the reply is three dots, click on that, and save the comment should be an option.
(I've been moving, yesterday and today, but once I have some time I'm going to edit my comment to add everyone who has commented any suggestions.)
Cultural-Answer-321@reddit
Also "Democracy for the Few" (Michael Parenti) and "Gangs of America" (Ted Nace. All about corporations)
Avalon-Sparks@reddit
Thanks for all the great resources!
UnraveledShadow@reddit
Ooh I want to also recommend the Bad Faith documentary which goes in-depth on the Council for National Policy and all of its different branches (including Citizens United and the Heritage Foundation). It’s a very informative look at how Christian Nationalists have been working to install their own candidates into the GOP leadership for decades.
greencycles@reddit
Hypernormalisation (2016) fits perfectly in this list.
Legal-Abroad-7481@reddit
And the previous documentary series, "All Watched Over By Machines of Loving Grace".
Also Naomi Klein's novel 'Doppelganger.' Sarah Kendzior's 'Hiding in Plain Sight' and 'They Knew.'
TheHipcrimeVocab@reddit
I would also recommend "Evil Geniuses" by Kurt Anderson, author of "Fantasyland." I'm reading it now.
HerdedBeing@reddit
Great lists from others here. I would add "the Family" (book or documentary on Netflix). People don't necessarily have to have regular meetings about how to destroy America like some people think is implied by the word conspiracy. Many like minded people working separately with a laser eye on the goal and getting the right people in the right places. It's more of a movement than what people commonly think of as a consipacy.
I'd also point people to the 1971 Powell Memorandum (https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/assets/usa-courts-secrecy-lobbyist/powell-memo.pdf). It outlines strategies to force various sectors of society to promote corporate/wealthy-class interests. Whether or not this memo is commonly accepted as a playbook, the strategies are eerily familiar, like taking the courts, setting up the propaganda mills we call right-wing think tanks and billionaire media empires, and attacks on education and expertise.
The memo went over well with its audience, who felt blacks, women, liberals, etc got too uppity during the Civil Rights Movement. Add to that folks like Ralph Nader and experts who producers blamed for having to spend money to make their products safe. Too many wins for the regular folks.
Oh, and Nixon nominated Powell for the Supreme Court about 2 months after he produced this memo. After he was confirmed, he helped set things up for the 2010 Citizens United decision [https://www.theusconstitution.org/news/the-right-wing-legacy-of-justice-lewis-powell-and-what-it-means-for-the-supreme-court-today/].
SpeakerOfMyMind@reddit
I watched "The Family" twice and it is some good information, but decided with my capstone advisor to not include and find the hard data the documentary discusses, which I did with some of these sources. So it's there, just in different sources here, I also did not add all my sources and articles, but if people are interested, I'd definitely list them. Also, Powell is in my capstone, exactly for what you have said!
HerdedBeing@reddit
That's a fair point about sources. I haven't read the book yet, but I'm hoping it will answer some questions I have. There is just so much to know here! The thing I will never forget from the doc is the footage from the National Prayer Breakfast when Coe says they do their best work behind closed doors. It's disturbing, but also enlightening.
livlaffluv420@reddit
Anyone who may doubt the veracity of facts found within The Family - that is, the exploitative billionaire-class capture of gov’t under the guise of peaceful religious fundamentalism being violently exported from America worldwide - needs to look into the insanity surrounding the assassination of Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe…
ABurningDevil@reddit
I'd also add
Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein
Reaganland and Nixonland by Rick Perlstein
Vulture Capitalism by Grace Blakeley
and Evil Geniuses by Kurt Anderson
vialeex@reddit
I would add “Merchants of doubt” to the list of books, talks about similarities between the tobacco industry denying the effects of smoking and the oil industry casting doubt about climate change
Paradoxone@reddit
Exactly what I was expecting as the backdrop of this post. Beyond those similarities you mention, it ties denialism in those areas to economic and ideological motivations and ties of the "merchants of doubt", many of which are linked to the Heritage Foundation and the Marshall Institute.
And as an even more pertinent follow up, I recommend "The Big Myth: How American Business Taught Us to Loathe Government and Love the Free Market" by the same authors, Naomi Oreskes and Eric M. Conway.
These two books provide well-sourced support the arguments put forth by OP.
americasnxttopsurgry@reddit
I work on this topic as well :) Check out David Gibb's Revolt of the Rich, it came out a few months ago.
frankthepieking@reddit
Great list, needs more Adam Curtis
falcngrl@reddit
The Power of Nightmares https://g.co/kgs/66b2cKU
SpeakerOfMyMind@reddit
I'll definitely look into it, never came across his stuff. I've been expanding the scope a little bit, but for most of my study it was learning when the movement roughly started (for my definition of "starting" I looked for the Christians coming together with Corporate America, but you can trace it back to the start of the KKK) anyway, I was very focused on the Council for National Policy that started in 1981 and where it went from there.
Hopefully, in time, I'll keep broadening it, but I'm also worried about keeping safe if the worst situation arises down the road. Honestly, if I see anything happens to Kristen Kobes du Mez, Anne Nelson, Katherine Stewart, or Jane Mayer, I might try to switch it all to handwritten and scrap as much as I can online.
False-Difference4010@reddit
A comedy I would add to the list is "Thank you for smoking"
Ironically the film was produced by Elon Musk.
bigbluecrabby@reddit
Thanks for this!
wisenedwighter@reddit
Try
One nation under blackmail Vol 1,2
By: Whitney Alyse Webb
digdog303@reddit
Woww thank you, got some homework to do!
SillyFalcon@reddit
Awesome list!
BTRCguy@reddit
This post could be rewritten about 1884 instead of 2024 and it would be just as valid. Rich people abusing the working class and being largely above the law, continual fostering of resentment between one group and another to keep people divided (blacks, chinese, italians, irish), repression of women, nationalism, fearmongering by a media solely for purposes of profit, etc.
No post-WW2 conspiracy needed.
Longjumping-Path3811@reddit
A conspiracy is a secret plan meant to cause harm it whatever. Y'all need to understand conspiracy being a bad word was literally done by the CIA. It's not a bad word. It's literally a word to describe secret nefarious plans ffs.
MsTitsMcGee1@reddit
Nefarious means bad. You are contradicting yourself.
Cody10813@reddit
This comment is the corpse of media literacy rotting before my very eyes on the collapse subreddit of all places.
anthrolooker@reddit
They meant it’s not a ‘wrong’ word or ‘crazy’ ‘outlandish’ word to use. It’s the correct word for a nefarious plan (usually to commit a crime) involving more than one person.
FoundandSearching@reddit
The word itself means “to breathe together”. For I’ll or good.
BTRCguy@reddit
It ain't much of a secret plan if internet randos are spreading the details of it...
BeastofPostTruth@reddit
"You don't need a formal conspiracy when interests converge"
-George Carlin
dnxiiee@reddit
such a good write up!
O_O--ohboy@reddit
I essentially agree but idk how much of this was a conspiracy so much as the duty that companies have to their shareholders. That is kind of the real evil in all of this, the duty to provide profit. It puts human interests directly against profit.
6rwoods@reddit
The very concept that the only responsibility a corporation really has is to increase the wealth of shareholders was created due to ideology, it was not always taken for granted. Corporations were meant to provide goods and services to people and should be valued based on their ability to provide a good quality to price ratio, and some would argue they also have a social/environmental responsibility to not make the world (too much) worse through its actions (e.g. dumping toxic industrial waste into rivers and calling it an "externality"). The idea that all a corporation needs to do is make rich people richer at any cost to everyone and everything else is what got us here, and that certainly took some conspirating between these business leaders to coin that ideology and spread it out to the public.
Financialisation of the economy has also increased dramatically over the years and especially after 2008, meaning that most companies' profits now get invested in the stock market (i.e. increasing the imaginary value of the company with no real life explanation for it and making shareholders richer) instead of back into the company to grow it, replace technology, develop new products, etc.. That leads to the decay of the company itself and the people that rely on it, all to, again, make shareholders richer.
O_O--ohboy@reddit
I think that the idea to protect profits for shareholders actually came from the idea that companies shouldn't just take investment money and then run off with it. I think it's actually about preventing fraud. The problem is that this premise has been exploited and consumer protections have been eroded in other areas.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
Most conspiracies occur in someone's interest. People don't just plot "for the hell of it".
However, I doubt that, for example, funding right wing voiices on you tube, is done out of shareholder interest.
Perfect-Ask-6596@reddit
Took way too long to say that the ownership class is organized. The working class needs to "conspire" as well for a change.
skullhusker@reddit
The oligarchs have won and with all their threats of mu3der and Ra.p3 we can just stay home again like covid and see how y'all do. No fun, just little worker bees consuming just the necessities. Seems like the last time that happened y'all freaked out
BayouGal@reddit
Consume less. It’s the only way to disrupt the oligarchs.
skullhusker@reddit
Lolz, I embrace minimalism.
The supreme brand is hilarious to me.
Desperate-Strategy10@reddit
But that won't happen without some solidarity. For every worker who decides to stay home, there will be another who steps up to do the jobs left behind. Many of our jobs are very unimportant to the economy as a whole, and with AI where it is now, many of us can simply be replaced.
I agree that it would be a good idea to try, but I don't think we're ready for any big sweeping steps. We need to be taking little steps to win workers over to our side if we want to see changes. Unfortunately, I have no idea how that will be possible, but smarter people than me are surely pondering this too. I hope, anyway.
Longjumping-Path3811@reddit
Seems obvious. You drop the culture war and let the .03% of the population screech for a bit until they tire and you move on fighting for labor rights instead of gay black trans women etc etc etc etc because without equal labor rights you get no equal rights.
luminousrose9@reddit
Idk, I feel like when people are subject to violence and oppression, you fight for those people. Let's not forget that trans women are much more likely to be murdered. Sharing pronouns is just a small thing to show you are welcoming.
look@reddit
Biden and Harris did a ton for worker rights and campaigned on that. Workers voted against them anyway. Hell, union members voted for rapidly anti-union candidates. What the fuck are you supposed to do with that?
g00fyg00ber741@reddit
Well it’s not like they didn’t hurt their own chances. Biden literally declared the railroad strike illegal when the workers just wanted time off to go to the doctor… Yes, worker rights will be worse under Trump, but we aren’t talking about logical and reasonable people here. Their votes reflect their short term emotions or long term prejudices instead.
CerddwrRhyddid@reddit
The aristocracy have class solidarity.
It's a pity the rest of us don't.
RlOTGRRRL@reddit
Will there be class solidarity for the aristocracy if Stephen Miller deports their wives or themselves and their families after they're denaturalized?
Ironically, based on Project 2025, Elon Musk would be eligible for denaturalization and deportation, if his paperwork isn't up to par.
Midnight-Nuke@reddit
"Papers Please".
"Don't you know who I am?! I'm Elon Musk!'
"I SAID PAPERS PLEASE".
BayouGal@reddit
LOL
Billionaires aren’t getting deported.
hectorxander@reddit
Working people are kept divided by design, it is not all organic.
That will never change if we only communicate via forums controlled by and beholden to those monied interests.
Social media has made it worse.
kadfr@reddit
Yes absolutely. Once the internet was a place of freedom where people would use communicate with other people without being beholden to the big corporations.
Now it is a tool to organise opposition against the power of elites, social media is a perfect way basically a means to monitor, control, distract and divide the populace.
spaghetti_vacation@reddit
It's not even solidarity I don't think. Under the right circumstances they too are crabs in a bucket.
It's just that their objectives tend to align much better than the rest of us. Get a room full of billionaires and you will find agreement on such fun topics as "lower taxes", "no minimum wage", and "fuck the workers". In a room full of the rest of us their is so much diversity and so many unique motivations.
We are easy to divide, and even more critical, we are probably not even unified in the first place.
SweetLilMonkey@reddit
This is a well-understood concept within game theory. They collaborate to advocate for their class against other classes because they doing so benefits all of them. Meanwhile within their class they are at each other’s throats. And they are open about both aspects.
mehum@reddit
Not really crabs in a bucket so much as hyenas scrabbling over their share of the carcass.
Dark_Bright_Bright@reddit
Yeah maybe not so much hyenas squabbling over a carcass as raccoons negotiating over the last slice of pizza in a dumpster.
crm006@reddit
Well, the French have honed their butchery skills over generations. We should take more notice when they pick a bone.
I’m clearly trying to keep the analogies going but for real they know how to protest. I wish we were more like them and could stay organized long enough to make a difference.
jake-j2021@reddit
There is a rank and file movement in unions to get them more willing to fight the neo-liberal status quo. Its just that its a slow process. In my profession it started with a rank and file caucus in the Chicago Teachers Union that organized, eventually took over and lead to a series of sucessful strikes. Organizing in our work places towards a general strike is the most efficient route I think to build class solidarity (big problem with how segregated and white alot of industrial unions are though) We will see if the UAW manages. Problem is we don't have "all the time in the world" to organize.
Albus_Harrison@reddit
When you have all the money in the world, real issues like Healthcare and human rights don't matter. So it's much easier to rally around the central cause of "get more money no matter the expense."
The owner class will always be playing the game on easy mode.
shellshaper@reddit
Longjumping-Path3811@reddit
Yea they don't care if you're gay or trans they just want you to fight about it.
BayouGal@reddit
Peter Thiel is gay.
Runningoutofideas_81@reddit
Hates his own.
hurricanesherri@reddit
This is also why the right (Republicans, Trump supporters, fascists) has an easier time organizing their base than the left (Democrats, Socialists, Progressives) does.
Diversity = Division
The solution is for the left to drill down until they find the common cause of all that diversity.
I think it's "Capitalism is bad for 90+% of humanity and for the whole biosphere, so let's end it."
In the US political machine, almost no one will say this out loud: not Obama, not Hillary Clinton, not Harris, not Pelosi... the list is huge.
Bernie Sanders and AOC are two exceptions.
If Bernie had been the Democratic nominee for president in 2016, I absolutely believe we never would have seen a Trump presidency-- then or in subsequent elections.
endadaroad@reddit
Quite possible also that billionaires would be paying their fair share of taxes now. I don't necessarily agree that ending capitalism is the best idea, though. We can allow the corps to make as much money as they want, then take our cut to promote what we need to live happy, comfortable lives.
endadaroad@reddit
We are easy to divide on a national level because we all watch TV. I blame the "liberal" media as much as Fox and the conservative media for the return of the Trump. They gave him the top story every night for the last 4 years. Bad press is better than no press at all.
Why don't we move to a local level where we can agree that the roads have too many pot holes and the riverbank needs cleaned up and street drainage needs to be improved and the homeless need to be taken care of and the list of problems goes on endlessly. Maybe we could find local people who would be willing to tackle these kinds of problems even if it means using eminent domain to take abandoned industrial infrastructure and convert it to public use. The rule of law is breaking down before our eyes. We can turn this to our advantage and if we can pull together at the local level first, we might have a chance at moving up the ladder and actually taking power back at the national level. I, for one, have no plans to ever vote for a Democrat or Republican again at any level.
Instant_noodlesss@reddit
Harder to organize a significantly larger number of people. Folks all got their own temporary priorities. Ain't nobody is going to stick their heads out to help others who equally don't give a fuck about their fellow men either.
Just because the working class is the working class, doesn't mean it is comprised of decent people.
NorthernAvo@reddit
They've pinned us up against each other on purpose. I pray that someday we will have the organization to foster an equal presence in the room. Issue is we're mostly all way too comfortable to do anything.
BayouGal@reddit
Too many of us have been convinced we are temporarily embarrassed millionaires. If we just keep pandering to the wealthy, we will get there, too! 🙄
ElectroDoozer@reddit
Nope, they like to just keep us arguing about skin colour and who we like to cuddle…and half of us are stupid enough to fall for it.
ZealousidealDegree4@reddit
We are too worn out and distracted to move. Bread and puppet. Education is poorly funded, we are less able to form critiques and dialogue. The aristocracy is well rested, well educated, mobile, and not distracted by bills.
The disparities are so glaring now, I suspect that even more moats are being filled to buffer the direct interaction between the haves and have- nots.
I’m going with Bernie from now on. Fuck worrying about third party impacts on a race. Democrat, republican blah blah blah. I’m sick of working so hard so that some aristocracy can enjoy shareholder income. Fuck. It.
It’s done. The collapse is here, and politicians will be less and less able to be able to use my tax money to subsidize the MIC, big pharma, and bro deals that in no way support my needs to get enough rest, to see my family more. I tried, but
Fuck. It.
Altruistic_You6460@reddit
Not really what they said. Said that the rich planned 20 years ago to for a right that adopts the mean girl tactics of emotional and social bullies to keep climate change off the agenda because they know they'll lose any intellectual debate and that would end consumer capitalism which is the source of their power and wealth. They did the same thing before with neoliberalism.
hectorxander@reddit
Actually the game plan was drawn up in the 70s, climate change part in the last 20 years perhaps.
Much of the playbook is from tobacco companies.
Dark_Bright_Bright@reddit
Hairsplitting should be banned in this sub.
Cultural-Answer-321@reddit
The Business Roundtable, founded in 1972. The OG of all the corporate right wing think tanks and lobbying groups.
Once known as the "Coporate Senate" or "fourth branch" of the U.S. government.
BayouGal@reddit
They have been aware of the effects of climate change since the 1930s, at least in the industries. You can find industry research from 100 years ago regarding the detrimental effects of the increased CO2 levels caused directly by burning fossil fuels.
Perfect-Ask-6596@reddit
I think the distinction between organization and conspiracy is secrecy. The game plan by the wealthy has hardly been secret. See the Powell Memorandum, writings by the Chicago boys, Davis, etc. It's not hidden because they don't need to.
m00z9@reddit
For decades, White Picket Normal American Society tormented, ridiculed, and murdered communists and Communism.
When you lack any good arguments or principles, you just hire muscle men, fascist soldiers, pig cops, the CIA, snipers etc.
OrcaResistence@reddit
If you want to know how organised the European parliamentary forum for reproductive and sexual rights did a study and found out how well organised the owning class is.
systemofaderp@reddit
Link?
ZealousidealDegree4@reddit
It can be found here but the parliamentary language is a bit thick. I’ll read the links later to find the relevant studies/reports
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/A-9-2021-0169_EN.html
d_gaudine@reddit
are you purposefully avoiding the whole point of "motivation" ? the ownership class "owns" because of their tendency towards organization. the "useless eaters", of whom the "ownership class" is always trying to compartmentalize themselves apart from, are the rabid hoards of consumption and chaos.
if "working class" people where to level up in the "organization dept." , they'd end up on the other side of that line between "farmers" and "animals".
it is like musical chairs - while you are drinking your 10 dollar lattes and throwing the cups on the ground on your way to the "climate change rally" , they ( tumps, clintons, gates, obamas) are buying up key lands (think NW north carolina) and making sure when the music stops, they have their chairs ready....while the useless eaters are fighting over politics and social status.
all of the american "useless eater" groups were literally all either started by or subverted by the ownership class. right around the "occupy wallstreet" movement, you saw the ownership class step up their game in defense. they picked a figurehead that no "occupy wallstreet-er" would go against because he walked, talked, and acted like the messiah of the movement.
in the "ownership class'" worldview, they are saving the planet from people like you. to them, you are like a termite that needs constant stimulation or else you cause a dark age. and for the most part , they are right. every single stupid dirty trick they have run on you has worked because you gave them access to critical data about yourself that makes it possible for software to literally predict your behavior patterns. you allowed them to do that after 9/11, btw.
So, they basically know everything about you, meanwhile, you think everything they tell you about the world is true . this is why you are unhappy, because you are realizing you don't know what to think unless a thought is provided to you, but you know deep down that you are being tricked.
Crash_Bandicoot_2020@reddit
Incredible. Well said d_gaudine
jonathanfv@reddit
No war but class war.
Bitter-Good-2540@reddit
Aka propaganda lol
Educational_Minute75@reddit
Good God, what an appalling ego.
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ilir_kycb@reddit
The liberals are confused, the leftists not at all.
Liberals ≠ Leftists !!!!
FoundandSearching@reddit
We have a “Left” in America?
ilir_kycb@reddit
Well, not really, but there are at least a few left-wing subs and the PSL.
But it certainly doesn't help to wrongly regard liberals as left-wing.
FoundandSearching@reddit
I truly never thought about the “Liberal” versus “Left Wing” elements. Valid point.
ilir_kycb@reddit
Liberalism is regarded as right-wing practically worldwide. The only exception is US America because they are extremely politically illiterate (no offense intended).
Most US American liberals don't know what liberalism is:
No, we do not. Anti-capitalism is the dividing line of the political spectrum between left and right.
Since you seem to be very confused about the terms, here's another video:
CloudTransit@reddit
If everyone in America thinks liberal equals left, then that’s the meaning of the word in America. In some places a fizzy drink is a “soda” and in others it’s a “pop”.
HikmetLeGuin@reddit
One of the reasons Americans have such a bad political climate is that you insist on separating yourselves from the rest of the world and have no solidarity with the global working class.
In most of the world, rejection of liberal economics is one of the most important features of leftism. By rejecting the left and wrongly presenting liberal capitalist ideology as leftism, you are abandoning global working class politics.
CloudTransit@reddit
This is what makes AMLO such a pleasure to listen to. Neoliberalism gets called out, all the time, in Mexican political dialogue. Outside of Mexico and Brazil, where is this rhetoric currently having an impact?
HikmetLeGuin@reddit
Most of the global left denounces liberalism, and certainly neoliberalism even more.
Basically anywhere where there are significant leftwing/ socialist parties, liberalism is seen as centrism at best.
And there's a long tradition in the US of more left-wing people criticizing liberals. Martin Luther King was critical of White liberals. Phil Ochs made a song parodying liberals. It's been a popular leftist tradition to criticize liberalism and capitalism. That's sort of a defining feature of leftism.
CloudTransit@reddit
Fair enough, but I don’t see where the global left is rising to power beyond a couple nations. India, China, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, France, Germany, Italy, Nigeria, Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Sweden, Hungary, Turkey [sic], Australia, Canada and how big of a list can be made with what percentage of the world’s population where the left is a laughable afterthought?
If the left or progressives or whatever the latest brand name is want to continue to confuse American people about labels, we can continue to sound snobby, “how dare you call me liberal,” and condescendingly give lessons, “oh silly person, let me explain the actual meaning of the word liberal.”
For my part, I meet people where their at. If someone think tenant rights are liberal, I don’t lecture them. If someone thinks it’s liberal to tax the wealthy, i don’t correct them. If someone thinks liberals care more about LGBTQ+ equality and rights that’s fine by me.
HikmetLeGuin@reddit
The left in France got the most votes in their legislative elections recently. China is debatable; they are run by a Communist party and have a mixed economy with some socialist and capitalist elements. In Indonesia, the left was very influential during the time of Sukarno, but it took a the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of people under Suharto (with US support) to suppress it. In India, entire regions are controlled by Naxalite communist revolutionaries and there also states like Kerala governed by communist parties. There were once more prominent leftist parties in Germany and Italy which have now declined. Sweden is usually led by social democrats who are much more left wing than the US Democrats (and they also have a strong tradition of democratic socialist leaders like Olaf Palme). Canada has provinces like BC led by social democrats who are flawed but certainly much more to the left than the US Democrats and are opposed to the Liberal party. There have also been fairly strong socialist/communist movements in places like Turkey, even if the current government is right wing, and many of the Kurdish separatists there are socialist revolutionaries.
Those are just the countries you mentioned. So I think you are misrepresenting/ simplifying things too much. There are also strong leftist movements in countries like Bolivia, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Laos, Cuba, Colombia, Mexico, Brazil, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Namibia, Honduras, Spain, and various other places. The UK Labour party had a leftist leader until a few years ago when he and other leftists were aggressively purged. The South African anti-apartheid movement, one of the most prominent human rights movements of the last few decades, had a strong leftist presence, even if the current ANC has not lived up to those more radical aspects of their movement.
You can criticize any of these governments and movements and debate how effective they have been in adhering to leftist principles. I am not uncritically supportive of them all, by any means. There is a lot of variety on the left. But the point is that there are many left-leaning governments and movements and most of them would be very against being called "liberals."
I think we should use terms as accurately as possible, and it is very strange as someone outside of the US to hear people pretending that liberalism is leftism. It's disconnected from global history. Isolating yourselves in this bubble where people ignore the actual left in favour of capitalist, liberal economics seems counterproductive for anyone who wants to do an honest critique of American society. And even in the US, there are clear differences between Bernie Sanders' movement and the Democratic party establishment, or historically between more radical movements like the Black Panthers and liberalism. It's pretty difficult to discuss history and global movements if people aren't aware of these debates and disagreements.
Shoveling everyone who isn't a Republican into "liberalism" is quite misleading, even if I sympathize with your point about meeting people where they're at. I don't think it's a matter of "lecturing" anyone, but I do think these discussions need to occur and educating people that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris aren't "the left" is important.
ilir_kycb@reddit
Words have meanings, regardless of whether there is a group of people (or a country) using it incorrectly.
Of course, it is the usual US American arrogance (American exceptionalism) to assume that a word changes its meaning just because US Americans use it incorrectly.
CloudTransit@reddit
It’s linguistics. Of course linguists are probably considered elitist snobs, so better to insist on one dictionary definition, rather than understand where the people are at. Sounds dumb to me, but okay.
Can’t wait to see how excited “working class” people will be to get lectured on how wrong they are about the definition of a liberal.
FoundandSearching@reddit
OT: I grew up in WNY. “pop” is what we called carbonated, fizzy, nonalcoholic drinks.
I moved down here to Orange County, nearer to NYC, and carbonated, fizzy nonalcoholic drinks are “soda”.
CloudTransit@reddit
Visited New York a few years back. We were in Ithaca and we were flying out from Syracuse. My partner clued me in that the accent would change significantly by driving an hour north. Sure enough, the airport announcements in Syracuse sounded so Midwest.
FoundandSearching@reddit
You are correct. I went to college in Syracuse. Different accent from WNY. Different accent to where I am now. TBH I hadn‘t thought of the Syracuse versus WNY accent until you posted.
CloudTransit@reddit
I think Syracuse has something called “northern city raising,” like Chicago. This is according to my partner, the linguist.
FoundandSearching@reddit
I won’t argue with your partner. Interesting how the Syracuse accent differs from the WNY accent. Buffalo & Syracuse are roughly 2 hours away by car.
canisdirusarctos@reddit
Although not regarded as liberal in the US, the same is true here. Our right wing is relatively liberal. They’re most closely aligned with our most liberal party, which regards them as allies to some extent. Trump has further aligned with them as well. However, the purest liberal party in the US was co-opted by anarcho-capitalists a couple decades ago.
Our left wing are run of the mill authoritarian socialists.
ilir_kycb@reddit
Authoritarian center-right socialists?
It's the most ridiculous oxymoron I've ever heard of. The saddest part is that on the one hand you believe US education is a mockery and then you demonstrate that this is true.
Do you really think the Democrats are socialist?
Dark_Bright_Bright@reddit
Liberalism is a death cult? Jesus Christ, you ever think about discernment?
FoundandSearching@reddit
These are helpful to me. Thank you.
You brush against the one thing Americans hold to be true - American Exceptionalism. It is a difficult belief, as an obvious American such as myself, to think around - & to extra from our accumulated propaganda.
CloudTransit@reddit
To a republican there’s no difference between a liberal and a leftist. To any non-political person, the left are the liberals. This rebranding effort started several years back and it hasn’t worked. It confuses people and it’s ineffective.
HikmetLeGuin@reddit
In most of the world, your Democrats would be considered a right wing party. And liberalism is a very capitalist ideology that is not really associated with leftism. So it is strange to see you Americans acting like liberalism is the same as leftism. That is out of step with history and much of the rest of the world.
CloudTransit@reddit
Yeah, and marketing leftism as anti-capitalist is not a winning strategy among democratic voters, to say nothing of the broader electorate. The average American wants to fight climate change and have cheap gas. Americans want democrats to do more and lower the deficit. Americans are tired of giving their lives to corporations and they want to be rich too.
HikmetLeGuin@reddit
Leftism is anti-capitalist almost by definition.
Bernie Sanders lost but was quite popular with the youth because he criticized capitalism. Socialism and anti-capitalism have been shown in polls to be more popular than you might think.
Martin Luther King Jr. was a very effective organizer and speaker in the US and was basically a democratic socialist who was very critical of capitalism. He also had more radical people in his circle advising him.
There used to be a much more robust communist party and much more robust socialist, communist, and anarchist union movements.
These ideas have played a bigger role in US society than you might realize, despite the massive repression against them by the state and corporations.
In order to actually address the class issues you mention and effectively deal with climate change, we must widen the Overton window and really start talking about socialism and anti-capitalism. A lot of people are ready for it, and even more will be ready for it once they learn about it.
There's a huge number of disaffected and disillusioned people who didn't even vote. Instead of appealing to Dick Cheney and trying to win over a small number of right-wing voters who might switch to them, the Democrats should have appealed to the many working class people who are fed up with the system.
But the Democrats didn't do that because their establishment is basically right-wing and many of the party members are still too attached to liberal capitalist ideology.
Liberalism won't be enough to solve climate change and other essential issues. So even if it's nicer than conservatism (and the fascist tendencies that are bubbling to the surface), it is a failing option in a world that needs more radical solutions to prevent ecological collapse and effectively change the conditions that lead to fascism in the first place.
HikmetLeGuin@reddit
You're 100 percent correct. As someone who doesn't live in the US, it's very strange to see the Democrats described as being on the left in any way.
There is a massive difference between your "liberals" and actual leftism. Most leftists are very critical of liberalism. Rejection of liberalism is actually one of the things that defines the left in many parts of the world!
canisdirusarctos@reddit
Our left is not liberal, they’re authoritarian. They somehow latched on to the title of liberal, despite it not being accurate, because it was strongly associated with intellectuals. One of the core reasons US education is such a laughingstock is that schools have become homes for leftist indoctrination. They don’t create free thinkers as you can see clearly here on Reddit.
Ok-Bookkeeper6926@reddit
I have a conspiracy theory the democrat politicians are in with the republicans big and made every mistake they could to get the democrats to lose. They did this to make the losing party the scapegoat. The scapegoat is then used to break the moral boundaries within society to break the other population down. They do this so that there is feudal class that will work tirelessly under them. The big lie is that there’s really a divide in the political class. The evidence to make me think this way is that both sides have been manipulating us. The political class seems to be able to get away with anything even when it’s known by the public. Democrat politicians are also just blaming left leaning people right now and using them as a scapegoat. Also it is very strange how weird the news has gotten just a total shift from 4 days ago. It’s turned from trump bad to woke bad and we need to not cater to trans people anymore. Then the whole I’m scared and I’ve been scared to say certain things. They’ve been talking about how trump will be making lists of the people he will go after. Well he has a very clear list now of 65 million people.
Taqueria_Style@reddit
Yeah well? That always happens. They're now catering to a different 38 or so percent of the population. Should have seen it under GW Bush my man. 8 years of institutionalized racism and pure trolling hatred.
It's going to be fun. Oh, my God. It's going to be so very much fun. You know why? Because as much as people SAY that they see through this BS... in about 3 weeks most will be parroting it. The true holdouts will be 3 months to 18 months. It's over.
Hell, I'm starting to see the occasional comment pop up here already. My conservative right wing AM radio hosts are going on and on introducing the term "mental weakness" so that they can then "other" the fuck out of people with it later, and keep the rest bending over as hard as possible for their overlords.
Ok-Bookkeeper6926@reddit
Trump is but he’s not dressing up he’s just going in there and watching them change and touching them.
OgenFunguspumpkin@reddit
But his boyfriend Giuliani cross dresses and married his 1st cousin. They‘ve been seen and photographed together with Rudy in drag.
ConsistentAd7859@reddit
I would say that the people in power really don't care which of the both parties wins since both are in their pockets.
And that the devision left and right (in the sense of conservatitve and progressive) is missleading since the Democrats are actually the partie that wants to keep the system, while the Republicans bank on those that were left behind and want to change the system.
Ok-Bookkeeper6926@reddit
Well they gonna change it that’s for sure but change doesn’t necessarily mean good. It just means oh they are just going to steal and kill everything now until there’s nothing left.
ConsistentAd7859@reddit
You are right. But what you fail to consider is that a lot of people really don't care anylonger for a "good" solution, because they know they won't be a part of it.
That's why Trump won. Not necessary because he is seen as better (be it for rassist or uninformed reasons) but because the Democrats couldn't convince the poor to vote for them. Because the poor don't believe the Democrats will change anything for them.
They know they won't be part of the economic growth. They know they won't be protected against exploitation. So why bother?
Ok-Bookkeeper6926@reddit
That’s just your opinion man.
dramatic-pancake@reddit
Oligarchy gonna oligarch
hectorxander@reddit
Dems think that is still the case, repubs actually will follow through on their election theft fabrications. The cycle will be broken if dems were stealing elections they would have to be prosecuted, and they will be, 2 to 3 years.
Dems think this is 1990, but it is 1930.
Midnight-Nuke@reddit
To lighten the mood, i'll just drop Jarvis Cocker's "Running the World". Can't put the full title in or the post will get deleted by the automod 🤣
https://youtu.be/xRGGbyZzuTg?feature=shared
ResidentAlienator@reddit
Dems have not been able to run a good campaign since Obama. I think most people have assumed that everything you've said is true, so not really a conspiracy theory.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
It's a conspiracy theory in that, as far as I am aware, there is no smoking gun. No one has come forwards and said something like "since the 1990s the Republicans have deliberately sought to destroy our socieities ability to conduct rational debate and I know, because I was there. And here' are the documents where they wrote their plan down, and the names of the guys who came up with it". We simply don't have that. All we can see is the effects.
Also, something doesn't stop being a conspiracy theory just because many people believe it's true. For example in Nazi Germany a huge portion of the population believed that the first world war was lost because of betrayal by Jews. That didn't make it true.
ResidentAlienator@reddit
Yeah, but I'd be really surpised if there wasn't a smoking gun.
TVLL@reddit
Correct yourself to say illegal immigration.
Leftists always leave that part out to gaslight everyone.
Conservatives are against ILLEGAL immigration, not legal immigration.
Every Leftist leaves that critical word out. I wonder why they want to always gaslight everyone like that.
thousandkneejerks@reddit
What is the difference between an illegal and a legal migrant? And more importantly… when in history did the concept of ‘illegal migration’ arise?
TVLL@reddit
Please don’t be obtuse. It’s not becoming of you.
You know the US has a defined legal immigration process. Anyone who does not follow that process is immigrating illegally.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
I'm from the UK. A few months ago, we had riots in our streets, with the protestors screaming about illegal immigrants.
However, many of the victims of the riots weren't illegal. It's not like mobs stop to check immigration paperwork. They beat up people just because of the colour of their skin. And they attempted to burn down mosques used by British Muslims.
So no, it's just just about illiegal immigration. It's about scapegoating and hatred and blaming.
trickortreat89@reddit
Is this a conspiracy theory? To me this just sounds like the observation of the reality we live in honestly… I definitely see the outcome of this election as yet another proof that the richest people in this world now owns it… they own it in the way that they’ve been lobbying themselves into power through influencing corrupt politicians, and it’s not even anything new or a big secret. And also being so rich and basically owning the social media gives a huge advantage when wanting to push forward your viewpoint to the masses. The world felt a bit more democratic when we all watched the same news channels, read the same newspapers and social medias didn’t exist. Even when the social medias just started the world used to be so much more democratic until the algorithms came in.
These days most people get their news only through social medias which again is made up by these algorithms controlled by the richest 1%. This is seriously not a conspiracy it’s just a fact. It’s also a fact that the algorithms works in that way that what you tend to like, you’ll get more of. So it’s really easy to manipulate and spread fake news… and this again is not new in itself, but somehow it’s a fact that most people seem to ignore as the big reason this election went how it did
comewhatmay_hem@reddit
Maybe you don't know people like my Mum.
All of this is a conspiracy to her. Anything where corporations are the bad guys is a conspiracy to her because these things are "not good business" and therefore just don't happen.
She was raised in the world of Gordon Gecko and How To Win Friends And Influence People. To her, corporations are moral institutions that have a duty to provide and protect the consumer. That successful business owners are inherently just better people because they must be smart to be so successful, right?
Sometimes it feels like she belongs to a cult.
Longjumping-Path3811@reddit
A secret plan by a group to do sometime unlawful or harmful fits more often with things than not when it comes to this stuff.
HikmetLeGuin@reddit
It bothers me when people constantly dismiss things as "conspiracy theories." Yes, there is a lot of Alex Jones level stuff that is BS.
But conspiracies actually do happen all the time, and mainstream media unfortunately often does a very poor job of revealing or analyzing it.
Obviously we must have evidence for any claims we make, but conspiracies really do happen quite frequently.
People usually accept that the mafia and other gangs commit criminal conspiracies. Why would much more powerful and equally vicious governments and corporations not also be conspiring? A gang can secretly conspire and cover up its misdeeds, but vastly wealthier and more sophisticated organizations can't? That doesn't make sense. And we know from history that the CIA and related groups have successfully run complex, violent, secret programs that meet the definition of a conspiracy, so it should not be surprising to us if we study the past.
thesameboringperson@reddit
Uhm, the media was always owned by them. Social media, or the Internet in general, at least allows for content that they wouldn't approve of.
creepermetal@reddit
You’ve essentially paraphrased (unintentionally I’m sure)The Invisible Doctrine by George Monbiot & Peter Hutchinson which came out a few years ago. In it, they similarly outline how the West has been overtaken and undermined by a pervasive Hyper-Neoliberal ideology that is a threat to everything we value, from democracy to the environment.
If you haven’t read it you definitely should as it’s a brilliant wee book and once read, it’s like seeing the source code behind everything.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
I haven't read it, but Monbiot is someone I already have a great deal of respect for.
Loud_Internet572@reddit
I worked for the federal government at a bunch of different levels and I'm sorry, I have a hard time believing it could not only engineer, but successfully carry out some long-term conspiracy plan like this. Now don't get me wrong, I can't sit here and say it's *impossible* mind you, only that I think it's highly improbable.
trivetsandcolanders@reddit
I don’t know. I don’t see the Democrats as any less disconnected from the elite and the ultra-rich than the Republicans. To me, they are two sides of the same coin, it’s just that the Democrats are a little less awful. The way they kept Bernie Sanders from getting the nomination in 2016 just solidifies for me that they aren’t a party of the people either. My conspiracy theory is just that rich people control everything, and are able to pull levers such that they’ll be fine no matter which party wins.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
I agree that after Citizens United both US parties have been completely compromised by the wealthy. However, it is wrong to see the rich as a monolithic faction. They are a series of individuals eachs with their own interests and agendas.
Just because one group of rich people associated with the Republican party plot to change society in a particular way, and seem to have been successful, that doesn't say anything whatsoever about what other rich people, such as those associated with the Democrats, do or believe.
trivetsandcolanders@reddit
But ultimately, the Democrats are just about as in bed with oil companies as the Republicans.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
Took me less than a minute to fact check your post and find it to be false. I suggest you do your own fact checking in future.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/788056/us-oil-and-gas-lobbying-spend-by-party/
trivetsandcolanders@reddit
Nice statistic, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. Look at oil production under different administrations…it reached record highs under Biden. And read this article.
https://apnews.com/article/business-5dfbc1aa17701ae219239caad0bfefb2
6rwoods@reddit
Oil production has been steadily increasing over time. The fact that it got higher more recently compared to the past is not surprising, and it does not in itself imply that Democrats are getting paid off by fossil fuel lobbies to deliberately make it happen. If anything, the fact that Dems are not getting lobbied nearly as much as Reps but have still continued to promote fossil fuel businesses sounds more like pandering to the lobbyists to say "hey we can help you too! give us some money!". Clearly it hasn't worked so far, but this is the problem: when democrats keep following the footsteps of republicans instead of standing for something different, they give people and businesses little reason to choose them, the copy cats, over the original and more extreme version offered by the republicans.
trivetsandcolanders@reddit
Yeah you’re right. It’s just hard to feel like they are all thaaaat different in the scheme of things, when I see things like Obama bragging about the oil boom under his presidency or Kamala suddenly saying she likes fracking. I agree with your comment
6rwoods@reddit
Yeah, clearly they want to have their cake and eat it too, and that middle of the road approach isn't working anymore. Those who like oil and associate it with wealth and growth don't need to vote Dem when voting Rep gives similar if not better results. Those who want us to move away from fossil fuels feel like it's disingenuous to talk big about green energy while also promoting fracking at the same time.
Philostotle@reddit
Isn’t that because demand has been growing? Just curious what the confounding variables are here
NotATrueRedHead@reddit
Agree. I know of no group of people anywhere in life that cooperate 100%, 100% of the time. People have their own agendas. This is why conspiracies never sit well with me. They seem to require far too much coordination and cooperation that humans just aren’t capable of.
armourkris@reddit
The left and the right wings are both on the back of the same bird
Globalboy70@reddit
It's simpler than that, most people don't understand economics, lagtine in policy, and believe con men. 1. Inflation every country in the world saw inflation after COVID. Countries pumped tonnes of money during COVID including Trump. COVID caused supply chain issues around the world. All of this caused inflation by the time Democrats took power.
People see inflation caused by who is in power now.. Not what took place before. Democrats actually got inflation under control and economy job wise is good.
People want cheaper daily living, and hope Trump can do it because when he was president things were cheaper, world was safer etc... No conspiracy needed just human ignorance as usual.
6rwoods@reddit
I don't think those two options are mutually exclusive. I mean, even just look at how people got so ignorant that they don't undertand how tariffs or inflation work, we can look at how education has been defunded for decades and how disinformation has spread everywhere to make people unaware of how basic things work and unable to trust educated sources on the matter. This was not done by coincidence, but because the right and the capitalists all benefit from an ignorant population who can only vote based on their emotions and not on logic.
DiethylamideProphet@reddit
Not even an educated population can decipher the nuances of modern society though, that is all driven by computerized binary machine logic. Do you understand how tariffs or inflation work?
I know plenty of educated people in a land of free education and free universities, and guess what, all they've accomplished is a narrow specialization to some well paying field. If they had spent all those years amassing vast amounts of general knowledge, they would be McDonald's employees.
6rwoods@reddit
>"all they've accomplished is a narrow specialization to some well paying field"
You know, I read a scientific paper a few weeks ago about climate change and this was one of the points made. That basically education today is so stratified that even the most educated scientist with decades of experience only knows A LOT about one ultra-specific topic and then maybe a fair amount about other related topics, but little else. Master of one trade, Jack of none, I guess. In the paper, they were talking about how climatology is very mathy, requiring computer modelling etc, and so most climatologists who are experts in the actual climate probably don't know jack about, say, rainforest ecology or agricultural techniques, in order to be able to accurately account for all of those "externalities" that feed into the climate in many complex ways.
So basically I do agree that our modern society has gotten complicated beyond the capacity of the average human to understand it fully. Personally, I am a curious person who likes to learn at least a little about a lot of topics, but I'm a secondary teacher because I never had the single minded focus to go specialise further and further into any one topic in post-graduate education.
That said, I do know how tariffs work and how they tend to influence a capitalist economy, and I also mostly understand inflation although admitedly the very concept of inflation is a man-made joke. The more I've learnt about economics the more I've understood that it probably should never have existed, we humans are not smart enough to come up with something that important to our daily lives and that overcomplicated and internally inconsistent and then actually make it work for most of us.
And yet, that is not to say that basic economic and political literacy should not be taught in schools anyway. You don't need to be a full fledged economist to understand that adding an extra tax to a product means that people buying the product will be the ones paying the tax, not those selling the product.
Pretty-Ad-5106@reddit
With tarrifs, in the short term, it's going to hurt. In the long term, it could help. However, this is an extremely distilled message to a multifaceted policy, implications of which affecting the entire supply chain and world economies.
People like to have a+b=c, simple, equations on reddit; nothing is simple about any policy.
Doesn't matter anyway. US is going to be fucked regardless. Global faith in the dollar has been decreasing, causing numerous nations to divest; this is impacted further by SA agreeing to sell oil in other (non-usd) currencies. The decreased demand causes an increased supply, leading to the deflationary value of USD and inflationary prices of goods and services.
The only reason the US did "better" with inflation compared to other westen nations and recovered quickly is because we enjoy Reserve Currency status that keeps demand for the USD high globally; that allowed us to print money to help keep the economy humming. When, not if, the US loses Reserve Currency Status, we will go through a hyper inflationary period. While nothing can stop it, being self-sufficient can mitigate it. On that note, we actually do need to shift our economy back to one of manufacturing instead of services. That's where terriffs can help.
If a company finds it more expensive to build overseas to support the US market, it is in their best interest to invest into a US based supply chain to maintain the US Market. It's a slow process, but one that, theoretically, can work.
kwaaaaaaaaa@reddit
Exactly, they got to ride the success of the predecessor and people don't understand the lag time of policy to outcome. The biggest mistake I've said over and over is that the Democrats don't rail on the truth enough. They seemingly allow their opponent to get a pass on bullshitting. When you ask a random person who they feel the economy is doing "it sucks right now, it was better under Trump". That should be called out immediately, yet some how the Republicans are masterful at this propoganda, turning a lie into the truth.
Midwest_Hardo@reddit
This drives me absolutely nuts. Everything - including and especially inflation - is a lagging indicator. I don’t even know how long the lag is, so I’m not saying it should be pinned on Trump’s first term. But blaming the Biden administration for inflation is so fucking stupid.
Taqueria_Style@reddit
Oh come on, everybody knows the President has an "inflation button" on his desk, that he pushes, and 15 minutes later the increased price moneys go straight into his underpants. /s
pajamakitten@reddit
Gordon Brown and Labour were blamed for the state of the British economy in 2010, as if they could have prevented the US subprime mortgage collapse.
Ok-Bookkeeper6926@reddit
Why start blaming your supporters then and start using them as scapegoats.
Terrible_Horror@reddit
People actually believe that a political party can control hurricanes. You seem to have a very high expectation of the population.
Wooden-Inspection-93@reddit
K I know I can’t be the only American dumdum out there who knew next to none of this shit…
MsTitsMcGee1@reddit
Gotcha thanks. I read that wrong
Hunter62610@reddit
I like your theory but I don't believe it's truly malice or greed that animates the Maga movement, neoliberals, or any other "intellectually incorrect" movement. They are just short term thinkers and simply see investing in the future as robbing themselves in the short term. If you save grain to plant in the spring, you can't eat it now, and if you're starving now, you aren't going to be amenable to not eating now even if you will starve later. I'm not complimenting this mindset to be clear, but I do feel it is necessary for us all to recognize and at least understand if we are to ever make sure we survive in the long term. I think their is a certain intellectual superiority complex the left has that drives away the average person who is struggling right now. They don't see their car as causing the climate change that makes their ac bill go up. They only see that they can't afford gas now, and one side is saying we will drill for gas and make it cheaper to live, and the other is mandating expensive "luxury" vehicles that they literally can't afford.
Change cannot come as quickly as is needed because Overton window of the populace and frankly their needs prevent it. We cannot stop climate change because we already long sold our soul to the devil.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
Creation of think tanks link the Heritage Foundation is, to me, pretty clear evidence of long term thinking.
Hunter62610@reddit
Sure, it's long-term thinking about how to alter global public policy, but the policy promoted is not in my book one that looks at long-term thinking. They are promoting short-term populism that maintains the status quo, to the detriment of trying to improve our lives tomorrow.
velvetvortex@reddit
One issue is that we don’t really know what Trump will do yet. Some say he didn’t step too far out of the bounds of a regular post-Nixon Republican. Was that the plan all along, or was he really chafing under the influence of too many “deep state” advisers. The USA is a golden goose of astonishing wealth accumulation. Do the plutocrats want to chance that with a too extreme political, economic and social upheaval.
Trump is a huckster and conman, is he just selling the promise of alt-right upheaval to those in the masses amenable to that message, but really just being a plutocrats tool.
baristaboy84@reddit
Also, Eric Weinstein has a good point about Trump tainting every subject he brings up by couching in the most idiotic, contentious way. A lot of subjects he brings up are important to discuss, but once he’s done, no one can have a constructive conversation about it anymore.
baristaboy84@reddit
In line with your points about “conspiracy.” I couldn’t remember the source but ai came through:
The term “carbon footprint” is widely considered to have been popularized by the oil company BP (British Petroleum), who used it in a marketing campaign to encourage individuals to calculate their personal carbon emissions, effectively shifting the focus away from the industry’s own large carbon footprint; this campaign was executed by the advertising agency Ogilvy & Mather
Corporations and ad agencies conspire by definition. But here it is obviously nefarious
gobeklitepewasamall@reddit
Uh, I don’t think this is a conspiracy theory dude, I think it’s just a plain old conspiracy.
Mark bluth has my favorite line abt the neoliberal take over, he calls it a “market friendly revolution” that “reset the operating system” or software of the world system by doing away with bretton woods
Anyway: William catton, William ophuls, donella meadows, Dennis meadows, William reed. Mark blyth, Steve keen, Immanuel wallerstein, Michal kalecki, Daron Acemoglu, Dani Rodrik. Im a huge fan of
We need them all to be required reading in schools.
PowerandSignal@reddit
Sounds about right. As far as wealthy elites forming a game plan in the early 70's, that's on the money. It was pretty well laid out in the Powell Memo from around '71.
Get72ready@reddit
Why don't you think that immigration and parenting (the essence of most of the trans debate) are actually important issues to Americans instead of a cultivated concern that the right tricked people into caring about.
I think this is the DNC s primary error. Maybe half the country isn't being manipulated. Maybe they actually care about this stuff
inaruslynx2@reddit
Explain what this issue is with immigration and parenting. If I know what you are alluding to, kicking out immigrants will put us into a depression and not just a recession. Not to mention the damage tarrifs would cause to our wallets.
Parenting is too vague. Food? Morals? Lack of education? Both parents have to work? Please tell me you aren't trying to say trans that are 0.5% of the population is a problem to parenting.
Get72ready@reddit
You are blending things together. You immediately go for the broadest and most damaging immigration policy you could. How about I can simply say Americans did not feel like whatever their problem was with immigration, Harris was not going to cover it in Trump was. We aren't talking about policy with real solutions we're talking about why people voted the way they did. And you know very well both sides a idiot economic plans.
You clearly don't have kids. I can no longer access my 13-year-olds medical record. Parents are also concerned with sports and bathrooms regarding gender. Maybe they felt one side will act with more restraint than the other.
I am done here, we are talking past each other. You want to have a different discussion than I do.
inaruslynx2@reddit
I have a 13 y/o daughter and I will accept however she feels and who she is. I don't know what bs you are taking about. I know California won't reveal if a child identifies as the other gender, but isn't the child asked if they want their parents to know. The only reason a child wouldn't is if they were afraid of their parents.
There is no immigration problem and I live near the border. To think there is, is stupidity. You couldn't name one problem with immigrants, but if you start kicking out millions of immigrants you'll get to see a depression with the lost workers and lost revenue they generate. That's why nothing will actually happen. Republicans will bitch about it, but they won't actually do anything. They could have punished companies years ago for hiring illegals. They chose not to.
The dems were stupid to ever agree that there was an immigration problem. They should have pointed out we have a problem processing immigration.
Get72ready@reddit
Lol, so you should not shift your concept of "there's a problem processing immigration' to "the immigration problem." Good lord. Water of time
zzupdown@reddit
I think OP is on point.
ConfusedMaverick@reddit
I completely agree about the creation of neoliberalism - it was probably the biggest and most successful conspiracy in history. They completely changed economics, politics, and society almost everywhere, and all to the advantage of the rich.
It's well documented, if not well known or understood.
It's fascinating and horrifying how it was done, given that the economics it was supposedly based on was considered stupid simplistic shit by almost all academic economists of the time. For example, entire economics departments were created with huge endowments, provided that the faculty was devoted to the study of Hayek, Friedman et al. The influence of the neoliberal economists was not won on merit, but bought.
My personal favourite tactic - they paid for judges in the USA to go on "economics seminars" that were luxury holidays plus an hour a day of neoliberal indoctrination.
Eventually, neoliberalism became "common sense" among not just a newly trained cohort of professional economists, but politicians, judges, businessmen, the entire establishment.
And yet, when it comes down to it, neoliberal economics is not some insightful scientific truth like the theory of gravity, but just a rationalisation for giving the rich exactly what they want.
Since this was so incredibly effective in reversing the postwar consensus and creating a caste of obscenely wealthy oligarchs, why would they give up on the general strategy? So I agree, you are almost certainly correct that the kind of conspiracy you write about is currently driving US culture.
DiethylamideProphet@reddit
Economics in general is not a science by any metric. Whether it's the Austrian school, the Keynesians, the Laisses-Faire, Marxism, neo-classical economics, monetarists, or whatever, the general consensus always shifts from one school of thought to another.
daviddjg0033@reddit
Economics will never be a science sure. I'm seeing Trumpers call for "the dissolution of the federal reserve" and floating the idea of zero income tax. The pendulum should swing towards higher tax rates on the wealthy going into a "Cold War 2.0" or we could see the sin of cutting taxes during a peacetime expansionary economy. It tanked the UK so the wealthy should be concerned they get what they wish for?
TheHipcrimeVocab@reddit
The book "The Economists Hour" by Binyamin Applebaum discusses this in great detail. Cleverly, he doesn't use the term "neoliberalism" at all in the book, preferring to simply document what happened and let the reader draw their own conclusions.
HardlyRecursive@reddit
Half the country is below a 6th grade reading level. That's all you need to know right there.
kokopelli73@reddit
It's really quite simple. Every leftist movement has been systematically oppressed; gutted and torn down from the inside or its leaders and followers killed outright. This has been ongoing since the end of WW2 through three letter agencies, local police and political institutions, all in service to the corporatocracy.
When you remove and vilify any leftist alternatives, the people will move right.
feedmeyourknowledge@reddit
Occupy movement is a perfect example, they went out of their way to make it look like it was all pointless and everyone involved was some gormless hippy.
kokopelli73@reddit
Go read If We Burn by Bevins. Delves deep into why the Occupy movement and many others in the last 15 years ended up going nowhere.
diagnosedADHD@reddit
I feel as though this needs to happen again at a larger scale with more organization around demands and targets. The DNC comes to mind, I think it's high time Americans take back control of their political future. I just haven't seen anyone talking about it yet
placenta_resenter@reddit
Learning what they did to the black panthers made me absolutely sick. And then that’s just one example
DalinarsPain@reddit
This is not really a conspiracy theory, It’s just the general history of a bunch of assholes conspiring against all of us
jake-j2021@reddit
Read Sarah Kendozier's work. Its highly researched. Here is some of it: https://sarahkendzior.substack.com/p/ten-articles-explaining-the-2024
MaximumBet393@reddit
You gotta google "active measures" great doco and i think it ties your theory together. Thats pretty much on point. A little cleaner and well thought out than my own suspiscion.
NotAnotherRedditAcc2@reddit
Simultaneously the American right is comprised of incompetent idiots unable to string two sentences together, yet also political masterminds capable of executing plans that span generations and require the complete reshaping of a society specifically known for its "fuck you, you don't tell me what to do" attitude. And all of this was done largely in complete secrecy. Is that what you're saying?
Millennial_on_laptop@reddit
No it makes sense.
It's 1 % Masterminds able to fund propaganda & 99% "useful idiots" sucked in by it all under the same tent.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
Well done. You've completely demolished that straw man argument that you constructed.
The American right consists of a wide variety of people with a wide range of levels of intelligence. It's my understanding that the average Republican voter is generally less educated than the average Democrat voter. However, there are also a large number of highly educated and very intelligent people associated with the Republican party and the companies that fund them, including several noble prize winners.
And yes - the right can execute long term plans, as the example of the rise of neo-liberalism demonstrates.
joejoesox@reddit
As if the Democrats and their policies aren't insanely right wing when it comes to economics. Where's the public option? Obamacare was a right wing policy drawn up by the heritage foundation and Mitt Romney.
Pale-Initial-3854@reddit
Read up on the Federalist Society. It’s sounds like a conspiracy theory but it’s been happening in plain sight at law schools for decades.
TheNigh7man@reddit
He cheated. Idk why that's such a difficult thing to accept.
AnarchoTankie@reddit
Nobody on the left is wondering what went wrong, liberals are not the left.
alkahinadihya@reddit
I’m asking this in super good faith because I’m confused by the terms people are using in this post and in some of the comments.
How would you define leftism? Liberalism? What is the difference between them?
Thank you!! 😊
AnarchoTankie@reddit
Liberalism is the ideology of capitalism and all the political structures that go along with it, "free" elections wherein people can choose which members of the bourgeois (the rich, the ruling class) will rule, "free" press that is owned and directed by that same ruling class and so on. It is the dominant ideology of the western world and pretty much all mainstream politics in the west is liberal; The democrats are liberals, the republicans are mostly liberals (albeit sufficiently far to the right that many of them are more accurately described as fascists). Even fascism is just liberalism in crisis, giving up on the less important political trappings in order to preserve the one thing that actually matters, the rule of the bourgeois and subjugation of the working class.
The Left^(tm) is a relatively broad tent of those opposed to liberalism from the leftwards direction, varying flavours of communists and anarchists or more generally anti-capitalists. Though of course for the most part nobody agrees on exactly where the line is, it is definitely far to the left of the democratic party.
Ok-Bookkeeper6926@reddit
This isn’t how the political spectrum is defined. Democrats politicians are centrist/ progressive. Republican politicians were centrist now they are capitalist fascists. If you’re progressive/ centrist you are still capitalist. China for example is a capitalist/communist country. Capitalism isn’t an ideology it’s how a government forms their economy. Centralism is an ideology. North Korea is the only true communist government in the world with no form of capitalism but instead a military junta. Russia is an imperialistic federalist society with capitalism. The United States for the last 100 years has been a centrist neoliberal capitalist society. You can say that both sides have been neoliberal. But the other people who vote for democrats can range vastly from progressive, centrist, green libertarian, communalism, anarchism. Communism/ socialism are considered authoritarian ideologies and so is fascism. Kamala/ Joe Biden are both centrists and there’s no other way of defining them. Donald trump is a capitalist fascist. Fascism is radical but it is very destructive and burns out fast because the ideology is built on supremacy, death, and taking by absolute force. People as a whole never truly want to live under an authoritarian ideology they are tricked into via emotion thinking they will get something out of it. But in the end only a very few get something out of it and that’s absolute power by a sociopathic narcissistic ruling class.
breaducate@reddit
Came here to upvote this, but hell even some liberals do better.
Watch Farenheit 11/9 and does it almost feel like nothing changed at all.
digdog303@reddit
If anyone can recall the part about wv going to Clinton and still argue dnc cares about the sanctity of "democracy", just lol
Jim-Jones@reddit
The Republican 'Party' is a fraud. It's literally 800 billionaires, a whole lot of fascists, and an extraordinary number of gullible idiots who consistently vote against their own best interests. It's not a real political party at all.
WTF Happened in 1971
The Nixon Shock
Time to Call the Republican Party’s 60-Year Plot What It Is: Treason
Yes, Kamala is the only rational choice for POTUS. But a lot of America isn’t thinking or acting rationally right now.
J D Vance, ultra fascist
"Democracy in Chains: The Deep History of the Radical Right’s Stealth Plan for America” by Nancy MacLean
davidclaydepalma2019@reddit
I think in general you are probably right.
Neoliberalism was born against the limit of growth rational that developed after the oil shocks.
However it never was a long term plan but developed as work in progress. From thatcher / reagen to Bush Jr. until it found it final form with Trump and Project 2025 .
But nobody drafted a 50 year script. But they definitely read Marx and Adorno in order to understand ideology and bread and games to deceive the masses.
Best example to see it as development, Reagan's think tanks did not plan that Russias bots would do the grunt work. Russia just understood and mastered to exploit the us idiocracy maybe 10 or 15 years ago.
So it is definitely a story of conspiracies like for example fossil fuel and right wing think tanks etc, but not a 1970 drafted " conspiracy theory" conspiracy.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
I agree with that. It was more a matter of identifying what they saw as problems - the popularity of the New Deal, and then subsequently the pressure to deal with climate change, and then deciding to dedicate significant resources over a long term to make those problems go away.
No one in the 1990s envisaged, for example, what a Trump presidency might look like. But when he entered politics and saw he was becoming popular they thought "this is someone we can work with".
pukexxr@reddit
Don't forget the neolib dems like Biden, the Clintons, and Obama's socialist posturing campaigns (but mainly war mongering presidencies) playing into the hands of the far right, and the dems only accomplishments in recent years being ones that reach across the aisle to pass far right anti-immigration policies. The (intentional) failure to enshrine abortion access so they could use this to manipulate votes from their base, etc.
Slanderous anti-socialist brainwashing from both sides that serves to the sole benefit of corporate control of the parties by corporate interests and lobbyists. A minority of democrat politicians that aren't establishment players, I could go on and on.
One guy, two hand puppets.
AmericanSammie@reddit
As someone who worked for the government at one point in the military, I can tell you that most things anybody higher up do are completely random and made up on the spot. Trying to create some kind of backstory like there's some big plot makes it too convoluted when, most of the time, it's a bunch of idiots coming up with ideas that either further themselves or they accidentally cause something else. I'm not saying that's always the case, but it's a big portion of what happens.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
I agree that on a day to day level most C-levels don't think long term. However very large corporations employ people to do that for them. Here is a publicly known example of Royal Dutch Shell employing people to do this, but I sincerely doubt they are the only ones.
There are also the right-wing think tanks who occasionally actually think (instead of indulging in full time propaganda), and also research companies associated with the US government and military who may have contributed, such as the RAND corporation. I wouldn't be surprised if a few right wing figures from academia also contributed.
dumnezero@reddit
It wasn't even that much of a change. You can see it more as seduction based on existing desires.
But, yes, networks are key.
brendan87na@reddit
look on the bright side, climate change will make all this a moot point
peacefinder@reddit
Not twenty years in the making; it’s forty or fifty years. No later than the Reagan administration.
DrieverFlows@reddit
Dead on, and not even a conspiracy theory as many parts of this just happened in the open. Check this however and realize they've been working on stealing the election while claiming the other side does it, for a looong time https://www.salon.com/2022/07/30/officials-refuse-to-certify-primaries-this-is-how-are-planning-to-steal-elections/
truthink@reddit
What then might be a realistic course of action given the severity of this? Set offramps into off grid communities to outlast collapse? Simply be a hospice worker to a dying society? I can’t for life of me see any realistic positive spin when the cards are so stacked against us.
Alex-Frst@reddit
They are just in propaganda. It's not a conspiracy, it's just a fact.
Pizzadiamond@reddit
I want to piggy back off your conspiracy, but I finf myself in the realization that these comments we make now, on rhe internet connected to ourselves can be evidence in a future court against us.
I will continue for now: I believe that the consensus of the end has been held for a long time. Those summits of powerful people have known that there is no escaping the collapse, w/o losing money. That they will likely be dead by the time it becomes unbearable.
The elite have no quarter for any other person, besides themselves. So their children will be handed the keys to "sink with the ship." The children don't care and neither do the grandkids.
My guess, since the 1990's we have taken a path to keep power in the hands of the few while dangling hope the emerging generations. That was why Obama was elected. Those who "handle" the democrats have been in on the plan. Their tactics of always blaming it on the Republicans without giving an actual try has reached it's goal and is no longer needed.
In order to fuel the machine the Corpos need complete autonomy to continue to enjoy their lifestyle, and thus, we have #47. Now, they can completely do whatever they want w/o restrictions until we are all gone.
Odd_Awareness1444@reddit
It's from the 24/7 onslaught of podcasts, and social media backed by BIG money conservatives to disaffected young men and undereducated rurals. The Dems had no chance. We have to completely change how it's done or the same will keep happening. I would tear down the party and rebuild it from scratch.
dancingmelissa@reddit
Although long. Explanatory. I agree. Thank you for writing. ☺️
xjaw192000@reddit
Would the left be more successful if they gave people a splash of reality for people when it comes to climate change? Like the evidence is clear and the outcomes are harsh. I mean we went over 1.5 degrees the other day, not hard to see that things are getting worse.
queenbaby22@reddit
Finally, someone calling out the massive shift from Keynesian economics to neoliberalism! While both are capitalist, neoliberal capitalism guts social progress and heightens alienation / forces a hyper individualist society devoid of all social care for others.
Highly recommending looking at governmentality and how we have become the panopticon individually. We govern ourselves, police and blame others for what should be a social failure (I.e. blaming an individual for being homeless, ignoring becoming homeless is usually a result of social failures and a lack of safety nets). It’s always been a dog eat dog world under capitalism, but neoliberalism truly embraces that.
WrenRangers@reddit
This was a fun read, also a strong possibility. The roots are deeper than people think.
Secondndthoughts@reddit
I agree, and like you said, it’s hardly a “conspiracy theory” when these kinds of conservatives have been open about defunding education at a national level in America for decades. It might finally come to be fully realised during Trump’s re-election, but there’s a strong argument that Trump’s entire political career is a result of poor education.
Taking it further into speculation, the Heritage Foundation itself just seems to be a white Christian nationalist organisation. To be fair, it is made up of a coalition of conservatives (and this unification is probably why conservatives are so successful currently, as the alt-right and moderates can feel comfortable sharing space), so it’s unlikely that they will ever see this goal through in their current state.
But Reagan, to this day, remains a popular and influential president for the worse as even the modern Democratic Party are neoliberal. The division in politics and wealth today can be traced back to the organisation, and I hate admitting that they are successful and incredibly resourceful. But their continued denial of climate change, to me, proves that they welcome the destruction it will cause as it benefit them in some way.
So, I think they want to leverage power over the people most affected by climate change, promoting a kill or be killed mentality that aligns with far-right conservatism. Although this is completely unsupported, the denial of climate change itself is dangerous.
Proof-Oil-3522@reddit
"Suave public speakers like ben shapiro"😂😂😂
Background-Head-5541@reddit
It's not a conspiracy theory when it's true.
Here's my conspiracy theory...
Republicans and democrats are secretly working together. And have been ever since Lyndon Johnson. Eisenhower was the last true conservative and Kennedy was far too liberal. Nixon was kinda liberal by today's standards and ever since democrats have been slowly shifting to the right. Regan established the new norm for government and Bill Clinton carried on with that norm despite being fiscally conservative. GWB built a war machine establishing US dominance across the globe. Obama did nothing to change that. He was just Bush light. Trump came in with a lot of bluster and big talk but never changed anything.
ABurningDevil@reddit
Have you read Shock Doctrine by Naomi Klein? If not, you'd like it.
Chrono_Pregenesis@reddit
Seems like every problem in society these days has the same solution: Eliminate the ultra wealthy.
leo_aureus@reddit
I agree, the cynical aspect is their leaders know climate change is coming, they just used these people to get absolute power under the tacit understanding that those who vote for Trump will be allowed freedom under the new regime.
Which many, I mean many, of them will find is not true.
Their movement ultimately only contains 400-1000 rich men, they just have millions of people willing to work for them is all.
Frozboz@reddit
You aren't American, are you? Your assumptions are off and you're mostly just regurgitating what others have said.
zaphood42@reddit
Meh.
http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas-strategy-gop-used-economic-scam-manipulate-americans-40-years/
Ffdmatt@reddit
I've heard think tanks like The Heritage Foundation were originally formed to prove right wing economic theories are better for the country. The problem was, all of the results of their tests proved the exact opposite. Rather than admit that, they just changed their mission to hiding that fact at all costs.
px7j9jlLJ1@reddit
I believe they cheated. Musk offering a million dollars a vote should have disqualified them. No, this is a coup.
ACrankyDuck@reddit
Doesn't matter if MAGA cheated. You could find every piece of evidence and it won't make a difference. The Democrats have conceded the election. You have no leadership.
Ebella2323@reddit
It’s been a rolling coup ever since he took office. First attempt failed, second attempt was guaranteed the minute the supreme court was stacked in his favor. The taking of the Supreme Court was the final nail in the coffin. The election was stolen. And my belief is that the voting machines in every swing state WAS fucked with who knows what new “tech” they (Elon) have available to do just that. These people have ALLL THE FUCKING MONEY—WE HAVE NOTHING compared to them, and they are taking EVERYTHING in front of our faces, but we will never be able to tell the masses because they control half the population too by owning EVERY LAST SOURCE of MSM these people consume, and now we cannot reach these people and get them to recognize how dire the situation is. We have been overtaken in real time.
hectorxander@reddit
Dems could know that and would not even bring it because they legitimately cried about respecting election.
I want some independent researchers to look at results and see if they see anything.
The dems had to run a populist campaign but they kept the clinton playbook from 1990. This was inevitable. They are not popular and not trying to be, the party needs all new leadership, no one connected to the old.
In any case fixes will be in next time around. The Republic fell because people trusted the dem leaders.
Longjumping-Path3811@reddit
I keep looking into the data and what I saw in my state were clear moves to the right in key counties they were trending that way since at least 2016. The numbers were so that most counties would flip this election if it remained consistent. Any they did.
We are not doing enough talking about what we want our government to look like. When you"let everyone have their opinion" (aka you silence yourself) this happens. Also no one wants to put trans people before women in this fight for equality. You all thought you won that fight for women and gays, no, you fucking moved on before you were ever fucking done!
OnlyThornyToad@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkBRANDON/s/U3WxDOezCG
https://www.reddit.com/r/Defeat_Project_2025/s/SHGhfEgL88
http://www.saveourelections.org/freeforall
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/22/us-voting-machine-private-companies-voter-registration
https://www.dcreport.org/2020/12/31/ess-voting-systems-a-friend-to-republicans/
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/Kb8qhBVWr9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0qivPudp6U
VixyKaT@reddit
Basically agree, but the roots go further back than the 90s. You have to back at least to Reagan, who emerged from consistent efforts in the 70s and privatization movements. Ayn Rand's dreams are coming true before our eyes. And also, don't forget all the cheating and lies that went into the entire operation. I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't serious voting corruption (remember the Chinese patients on voting machines sought by Ivanka??). They can't win in an honest fight.
Justjay0420@reddit
Pretty sure it was a stolen election. The left should be claiming election fraud since every single swing state went down ballot blue except for president. Doesn’t make much sense
3wteasz@reddit
This may be interesting to you, if you don't know Prof. Reiner Mausfeld yet, he's working on various of the hypotheses you imply here.
zeitentgeistert@reddit
Yikes @ Mausfeld. I suggest to read Robert Sapolsky‘s “Determined” as an antidote.
3wteasz@reddit
Sapolsky is not talking about the topics Mausfeld talks on. I would also recommend Sapolsky when it's about endokrinology and psychology, but what I meant was Mausfelds more recent work on elites. But you're very German, be proud about it, obviously you have a "smart" comment about even the most niche topics!
zeitentgeistert@reddit
I am recommending Sapolsky re: the topic of “free will”, respectively the implications of it not existing. For me, it is more exciting to examine what drives us - e.g. into the arms of conspiracy theorists - in order to see humanity's development in a more ‘holistic’ light, giving us a possibility to understand things on a deeper level.
For instance, the notion of dispensing patronizing IQ-points is far more interesting when understood as a tool, that speaks to the inner workings/landscape of the dispenser, than a qualifier.
squeezemachine@reddit
Has he been translated to English?
zeitentgeistert@reddit
I hope not. (Just because someone makes professorship doesn’t make him a competent expert on topics outside his discipline.)
Reddichino@reddit
We have an illusion of choice with political parties. A third party can never fix that. Elites, regardless of party (because it doesn't matter) have aligned interests. They don't need secret meetings. Siphoning value of a persons labor and funneling it to elites is the only game being played. Everything else is a distraction to overwhelm people to inaction or to uneducated then into ignorant complacency. And the phones we indulge and escape into for our dopamine fix make sure nothing else can get through.
ttystikk@reddit
The Democratic Party now exists as controlled opposition to the Republicans and as a wall against the actual Left. They appropriate the rhetoric of the Left and punch Left much harder than they punch at the Right. None of this is in any way an accident. They know that the greatest threat to the status quo they all profit from comes from their Left flank. It's why they love to call themselves "Progressives" even though they're barely moderates. It explains the exaggerated performative antics of the "Squad" who never actually do anything substantive.
Worse, there is incontrovertible evidence that various three letter agencies of the Federal Government have been systematically violating the People's Rights to freedom of Assembly and the right to choose our representative in the manner we see fit. They've done this through disinformation campaigns, discrediting the Left in the mass media, infiltrating and destabilizing Left organizations and sowing confusion, discord and division every chance they get. Anyone who tells you this doesn't happen is simply uninformed.
tenderooskies@reddit
i dont think this is a conspiracy theory, its just what happened
m00z9@reddit
"forest for the trees" ; or i guess, "woods for the trees"
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wiki+powell+memo+corp&t=ffab&ia=web
chat gpt summary =
The text suggests that Donald Trump's reelection reflects a decades-long strategy by conservative elites to reshape American society. It argues that since the 1970s, wealthy conservatives have coordinated efforts to promote neoliberalism—a philosophy that minimizes government and favors free-market policies. This movement, bolstered by influential think tanks like the Heritage Foundation, took root with leaders like Reagan and Thatcher, shaping Western politics.
In the 1990s, conservative intellectuals allegedly developed a new strategy to counter growing concerns about climate change, which threatened the core of capitalist values. As climate science challenged these ideals, right-wing interests shifted from open debate to a strategy of denialism and cultural disruption. This pivot included the emergence of the Tea Party, the alt-right, and eventually Trump's populist movement, which relies on emotional appeals, mocks intellectualism, and leverages media channels like Fox News. The writer contends that this tactic has created a political climate hostile to intellectual debate, making Trump’s rise not a fluke, but the result of intentional cultural engineering that has pushed American society rightward.
DreamHollow4219@reddit
Oh and not to mention that the population is becoming increasingly dumbed-down but when you dare expose this point, everyone gets pissed off and insists that things are mostly the same.
No. Things have not been the same for a great many years. Especially the last 20 years.
hurricanesherri@reddit
We are the poster children for Dunning-Kruger Effect.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
twoquarters@reddit
It was always about insulating themselves from reality so the BIG DISCUSSION about the coming extinction does not need to be addressed. Everything aligned to make Trump possible again.
TheCrazedTank@reddit
Ah man, that’s not a conspiracy theory. That’s what happened.
It was all out in the open too…
blackermon@reddit
Hey! You're right, but it's not a conspiracy. They wrote it all down, and then gave the guy who wrote it a Supreme Court seat. https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/powellmemo/
anonpurpose@reddit
Also Lewis F. Powell Jr's memorandum in 1971 laid out the general plan for right wingers. You covered most of the right wing efforts to kill all parts of the New Deal, and kill any labor power. The rich want all of the money and power, is what it all boils down to.
MotherOfWoofs@reddit
I mean what it all comes down to is hatred and power. The bigots are in charge again and the south will rise. They are going to deport a lot of people who do you think is going to take their places in the baccy fields and agriculture? This is basically slavery 2.0. They have the big plantation owners and hospitality industry up in arms screaming at the GoP...who is going to work the fields!! Who is going to clean cook and are for children? I will tell you who, theoringinal peoples that did it.
Trump cant just deport some and not others , then he would look like the worlds biggest fool. Our entire country runs on illegals , who do you think is out there working the fields? Working in hospitality? Being maids and nannies? working in labor?
Personal_Area7915@reddit
A great essay on this subjrct. But I wonder when we will be offered some insight into how it's all going to end.
There might be some food for thought about this very thing, if one dares to extrapolate on some of the wisdom available in an old book titled "On Contradiction", that Chairman Mao was big on. Some say it inspired both his Cultural Revolution snd subsequent New China deal with Nixon.
In a nutshell, the author claimed that progress occurs when two forces in self contradiction collide.
If one of those forces happens to be an increasingly authoritarian human civilization in contradiction with both itself and nature, and the other force nature in contradiction with itself.. in the form of an anthropogegenic climate crisis.. then the collision of the two will create progress, albeit through a prolonged period of intense human suffering. If this proves to be the case, then one is ultimately talking about a new balance between mankind and nature.. and real, sustainable world peace.
As someone once said. It won't happen overnight. But it will happen.
pm_me_all_dogs@reddit
It's a lot simpler than that: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/06/opinion/donald-trump-defeat-democrats.html?unlocked_article_code=1.X04.sSml.FX2w9_Qt7LkC&smid=url-share
From a different article: "When Clinton killed the party of FDR in 1992, he replaced it with a party of Patrick Batemans and the cast of The View."
abelabelabel@reddit
I mean you aren’t wrong. Hyper capitalism and polarization. One party engaged with reality - so their “message” doesn’t pop. The other - deeply cynical - panders to over franchised morons cover for deeply unpopular economic policy, and to beg the fools to trade it all for fool’s gold.
And all of it kept us from engaging head on with the class warfare - we never stood a chance at being able to put our differences aside to guillotine the billionaires. And - the wealthy made it so easy for the right to win, that they got caught in a feedback loop where whoever sucked the most oxygen out of the room could win.
digdog303@reddit
Dems are engaged with reality?? Not with any of the reality screaming that they need to pay attention to their voters not donors
pekepeeps@reddit
This is not a conspiracy theory. Rather a well written paragraph about heritage foundation but missing some key people who played the long game. Like Leo and the GOP overall. And they are playing it well. For many many years taking over smaller areas and smaller offices. Don’t forget those smaller areas of 2,000 people still elect representatives—think about that.
Those 2,000 people are way over represented. Look at middle PA. They have taken over all the smaller low population counties. Let’s not say it was always going to be this way because it was blue at one point. There were mines full of deaths who fought back.
The GOP took over public education bit by bit while everyone said -that can never happen here. They banned books while everyone said that can never happen here. They took over UNIVERSITIES- while we said that could never happen here. The Supreme Court-roe v wade-womens health care is crumbling—all things that could never happen here—-
The GOP and other countries are paying for the current propaganda of guys being guys BS . It’s a total brigade out of nowhere and should be IGNORED!!!
They paid the “influencers and streamers” and they still are.
If I could say anything for everyone to do it would be
IGNORE THIS CURRENT BRIGADE-it’s BS and don’t engage
weedfinancedude1993@reddit
Read the great divergence cause it’ll add
szonce1@reddit
Interesting theory. I’ll have to digest this a little.
smartobject@reddit
I don’t know about all that think-tank stuff but I agree with my wife who summed it up: if you go too far, our system of self government will allow the people to swing back in a correction.
I can see Trump likely going too far too.
9chars@reddit
wow flap your lips much? why do people expect men should vote for a party that hates them? its super obvious the reasons why they lost.
Playongo@reddit
This sounds like it was written by AI.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
In what way? Do you mean in writing style or content?
I_Smell_A_Rat666@reddit
Try simplifying your language to between a sixth grade to eighth grade reading level -- what the average American can read, so I've heard.
cathartis@reddit (OP)
I'm not an American.
Longjumping-Path3811@reddit
Well you're talking to them to be fair.
But I think what you wrote was perfect.
However I'm completely out of touch, obviously, considering the last week.
I_Smell_A_Rat666@reddit
This article may help explain reading levels to you, then, since a lot of Reddit users are.
3wteasz@reddit
This is ridiculous. I'm happy op chose to write properly and not according to some dictate of the dumb.
OKCompE@reddit
It really doesn't. The text has human errors like putting commas where they aren't needed. (This is not a criticism of OP.)
Rustycake@reddit
The ppl are divided and continue to be lap dogs for the elite.
Neither party is actually for the people, but ppl like to pretend that one side or the other is righteously fighting for them. If you continue to believe in the 2 party system you are blind, blind, blind.
BlizzardLizard555@reddit
This read like an Adam Curtis documentary. Great analysis.
PuzzleheadedTie8752@reddit
I'm in favor of no income tax.
gravgp2003@reddit
my conspiracy theory is that both parties are controlled opposition. dems head scratching stupidness running clinton/harris can possibly be explained in that they don't really care if they lose or are 'told' to lose. i guess its possible that they do lose for real, but these people who are running the country make campaign decisions that children playing a political 'madden' simulator wouldn't make. these bought morons run the country which is terrifying and there really is no experience needed to hold any position of power in this country, so i'll be missing that excuse till the end of time.
KingBoo919@reddit
That’s not a theory that’s a dissertation and I’m not reading it
Lord_Vesuvius2020@reddit
What you are saying rings true. But there is one big advantage about locating businesses and plants back in North America. There is a cheap and abundant supply of fossil fuel energy. That overcomes a lot of disadvantages. And the Trump administration wants to deal with deregulation, environmental regulations, discouraging unions, etc to make the US way more friendly towards the controlling class. The Trump administration is the end of decarbonization and climate mitigation plans.
stihlmental@reddit
You filled in the missing piece! Dead-on. Looks like someone did some research.
F the orange clown. F his dumbsh*t suckers/supporters and eat the rich. You've all been played.
Straight-Razor666@reddit
"We must never let the masses believe they can revolt" -John D Rockefeller
Grand-Page-1180@reddit
I don't know if there were any conspiracies involved, but I can't shake the feeling that the Democrats threw the match for some reason. It doesn't make sense how this could have happened, even with the rank stupidity, bigotry and meanness that runs through the cultural DNA. Someone made a good point, both parties are in on in it. They do the good cop/bad cop thing, but nothing ever is really going to change. It's a race to the bottom, the only difference is how fast you want to go there.
observador_53@reddit
I agree with many points in your theory, and I’d like to take this opportunity to discuss accelerationism, an ideology that holds that the best way to provoke radical change is to speed up existing processes, even those that seem harmful, like neoliberalism. Accelerationists believe that rather than trying to reform or resist capitalism, the most effective path is to intensify its dynamics to the point of rupture, triggering a systemic collapse that would make way for a new order.
In the right-wing view, this collapse would aim to reinforce control structures, often envisioning authoritarian and technologically sophisticated futures. Left-wing accelerationism, on the other hand, sees this collapse as an opportunity to precipitate social transformation and pave the way for a more just post-capitalist society.
Proponents of this approach argue that capitalism is intrinsically flawed and that the faster it deteriorates, the greater the chance of replacing it with a more equitable and sustainable system. This perspective accelerates and tolerates capitalism’s own excesses, provided that the resulting strain contributes to fundamental change.
Since the publication of The Limits to Growth by the Club of Rome in 1972, the depletion of natural resources and the risks of unchecked economic growth have become central issues in understanding planetary limits. From this study, the establishment itself recognized the impossibility of limitless growth and, behind the scenes, is said to have aligned an intentional agenda to accelerate capitalism’s march, using neoliberal policies as the primary vehicle.
From this perspective, neoliberal policies that deregulated markets, dismantled environmental protections, and concentrated wealth among elites were not merely “mistakes” or the “natural evolution” of capitalism. Instead, the narrative suggests these actions were part of a strategic plan: to enhance energy efficiency to reduce dependence on finite resources, to advance biomedical science in pursuit of life extension or “eternal life,” and to open new frontiers in space to exploit mineral and energy resources.
This optimistic view of progress hides the possibility that elite control over cutting-edge technologies could establish a centralized authoritarian order, where innovations would benefit only a small segment of humanity, while society would increasingly submit to technology and its controllers. At the same time, resource destruction and the fostering of crises and inequalities would deepen unsustainability, dismantling both democracy and capitalism, unable to serve an increasingly neglected population. This collapse would create an opening for an authoritarian government, legitimized by the promise to “save humanity” and restore order.
In this context, technological singularity appears not as a natural consequence of progress but as a concealed goal, where artificial intelligence and other social control technologies would reinforce this dominance and manage crises. The promise of “progress” would serve as bait, while the true aim would be the complete submission of individuals to a government with control over all aspects of human life. Thus, the acceleration of capitalism, rather than being a blind development, would be a preparation for a new cycle of power emerging from its own collapse.
firekeeper23@reddit
I loved Milton Friedman in Snakes on a Plane.. such fun!
DrDrago-4@reddit
https://welcometothemachine.co/
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
kiillakay@reddit
Please listen to the podcast “Master Plan” it goes over all of this!
vigiy@reddit
I'm going to be even simpler:
In the debate kamala bragged about record fossil fuels, and made sure voters knew she was pro fracking. When called a climate-denier Donald just scowled and piviots to clean-air-and-water. Trump can play this card because voters just don't care that much. And they already live like climate denyers! Is it moral for the average American to have a carbon footprint of 14tons a year in a climate crisis? Are you fucking your kids future? Do you want to have to ration? Its just too ugly for normies to want to think about and denial is simple.
Rossdxvx@reddit
“[voiceover echoing earlier line] They pit the lifers against the new boy and the young against the old. The black against the white. Everything they do is to keep us in our place“
Blue Collar, 1978.
The biggest fear that the oligarchs have is a united working class - a working class with awakened class consciousness. So, yes, there has been a deliberate conspiracy to prevent that by dividing us amongst different lines. And they have also used the Democratic Party to fulfill these goals by turning our politics into a duopoly of pro-corporate/big business right wings where, no matter what happens, they always win.
Trump is a lot of things, but foremost he is an obvious conman and grifter who will allow the oligarchy an orgy of amassing even larger fortunes as the Titanic sinks. His purpose is to divide and distract us while this process plays out, which I believe he will be able to do successfully.
rimbooreddit@reddit
That's the mistake of the people. Too preoccupied with "conspiracy semantics." Also, a group doesn't have to be specifically organised to inflict a harmful set of conditions for others.
ROMPEROVER@reddit
Well of course they were comprehensively out-maneuvered. They even now refuse to listen to voters. They only want to dictate the terms as if they are owed the votes. They are not beholden to the voters. So they lost voters
HZ2P-@reddit
Thanks for Russia's take on the matter
ericvulgaris@reddit
Dems, the liberal institution embodiment, can't understand that institutional value is in the gutter. And the idiotic masses are too dumb to vote for policy and instead vote for vibes and change. We're post-liberal now. This election was a referendum on liberalism. Welcome to the age of populism.
iamjustaguy@reddit
Are you sure they were voters?
MyFTPisTooLow@reddit
This isn't a conspiracy theory; it was literally the plan.
Lonely_Cosmonaut@reddit
Democrats would help everyone if they stopped calling themselves “left”.
Ghostwoods@reddit
It's hardly conspiracy thinking to suggest that the rich disliked the social fairness structures that arose out of the horrors of WW2, or that many of them spent a huge amount of time and money in the 60s and early 70s using the Chicago School and neoliberal theory to 'teach' economists, bankers, and politicians to dismantle those structures.
There hasn't been any meaningful 'Left' in the Anglosphere since the late 80s. It's only since the Tea Party metastatized and husked out the Republicans and the various Conservative parties that there's even been any discernable difference between the major parties. And that is only that the Tea Party is accelerationist while the other faction is still a bit more cautiously "Slowly, slowly, don't spooky the cattle."
Various members of that class bought up almost all the media, and used that to make it seem justifiable to the masses. They generally did it slowly, to avoid a backlash, and it worked perfectly.
Why do you think Davos, Bilderberg, and Bohemian Grove are such massively influential things? They're really just the low-tech version of /r/landlords.
Of course, it really didn't help that when the USSR fell, we decided that meant the Cold War was over, and Russia did not enlighten us that in fact, no, it absolutely wasn't.
lifeisthegoal@reddit
I think you are half right, but are also ignoring some things for convenience.
wannabemartin@reddit
You are probably right. But even without an organized de facto conspiracy, the upper classes using their influence to shape society, would lead to the same results. The thing with people in power is, they don’t have to conspire, they just do what benefits them and that is enough.
blacksmoke9999@reddit
I think you are right in a general sense that the alt right has the "big lie tactics". (The biggest problem of which is that fascists regimes are never stable long-term. The man on the street might not care about the big lie, but nature does. Nature is the ultimate check against the hubris of anti-intellectualism).
But it is not a conspiracy, there is no need for secret meeting of a dark cabal, sometimes some nasty people have common interests and collaborate without the need to secretly plan. If you are in an airport there is no need for everybody to be told how to move, people generally avoid crashing into each other with simple coordination.
Same here, they are not conspiring, they are just moving together.
IWantAHandle@reddit
I would go way further. The vote tally was completely incorrect completely incomprehensible. Trump's Russian friends hacked the voting machines and tampered with the counts. You just need to look at the numbers with an open mind to see that there is no way what just happened really happened. They stole the election. The result is fake. This will come to light soon enough.
hectorxander@reddit
The dems do not debate the left on equal terms, they use the same tactics the right does.
idkmoiname@reddit
Can't you write a tldr without all the generic historic excurses through conspiracies? Too much text that has nothing to add
Flokesji@reddit
Imo there's a lot of truth in what you say but also the democrats lost because they campaigned and behaved like a mildly less worse trump government. It's not that deep, they had a shit campaign and they're still owned by Israel who needs fossil fuels to justify their genocide, if you look into that Israel started lobbying right after ww2 and still owns the us political agendas.
Even if we don't count the Palestine situation they run a shit campaign aimed at boomers and gave it for granted that people loved them just because they're not as bad as trump
ReasonablePossum_@reddit
Tldr?
Trancetastic16@reddit
Yes, as science, military and medical technology advance, governments have become more fascist inspired and powerful than ever that no one else besides corporate governments and billionaire families have all the resources.
America was infiltrated by the Military Industrial Complex and influences it’s Five Eyes allies decisions and branches with trillions unaccounted such as the Pentagon and CIA are shadow governments.
News media is a monopoly such as Murdoch’s western countries monopoly, Fox News, and right wing conspiracy highly successful grifters, hired government propagandist including Russian bots and agents.
Elon Musk and Trump are allied with Putin.
Culture wars are always a smokescreen since the beginning of corrupt human civilisations leader’s to keep the class war ongoing.
It’s a shame the result of America’s declining health and education system and takeover of late stage capitalism and far right politicians to strip-down democratic processes.
VictoryForCake@reddit
This is an essay where a paragraph saying that those with vested business interests have a desire to steer people towards voting who they want in power would have sufficed. Yeah that has been going on for years, before social media you have radio and TV, before those you had newpapers, and even before that you rabble rousers given speeches, nothing has changed, democracy has always had this.
Everyone wants to find some escape or cause to blame for the current US election result, rather than accept the glaringly obvious, many Americans, possibly even a majority broadly agree with Trump and his views, and that main social views are shifting once again as they always do, nothing remains static. People live in a bubble and try chalk it up to one or two things, instead of recognising the interconnecting webs that cause such changes in views, and where support comes from.
OddMeasurement7467@reddit
Believe me. Some people can see the big picture, some can see big and far (very far), and some simply can’t. Source: I am living it :)
Altruistic_You6460@reddit
Tldr the right adopt the tactics of bullies to keep climate change off the agenda.
eco-overshoot@reddit
I agree with you, that’s what happened, but it’s not a conspiracy IMO, it’s the maximum power principle at play. They didn’t need to hold secret evil meetings, it’s simply how power and wealth works. add in some stupidity and short term thinking.
OnlyThornyToad@reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkBRANDON/s/U3WxDOezCG
https://www.reddit.com/r/Defeat_Project_2025/s/SHGhfEgL88
http://www.saveourelections.org/freeforall
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/apr/22/us-voting-machine-private-companies-voter-registration
https://www.dcreport.org/2020/12/31/ess-voting-systems-a-friend-to-republicans/
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/s/Kb8qhBVWr9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0qivPudp6U
canibal_cabin@reddit
The Dems are just as right wing (economically) as the republicans, and yes, rich people funded this on both sides.
The trans movement is not a civil rights movement, it too has been heavily funded by billionaires, it's a billionaire movement and no right winger will take it back, because it hurts women.
https://nypost.com/2022/12/31/how-pritzkers-became-key-backers-of-bail-reform-gender-affirming-care/
https://www.amazon.com/Transgender-Transhuman-Manifesto-Freedom-Form/dp/0615489427
'the highest paid woman CEO is a biological male, who could have guessed...so are other 'woman ceo's'
https://taggmagazine.com/trans-women-ceos/
https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/08/16/how-pornography-forged-the-trans-movement/
https://notindenial.substack.com/p/on-wpath-and-the-eunuch-archives
And pedophiles tell WPATH how to do transgender care.....
The "godfather" of transgender rights defined it as a sexual fetish
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Transvestiten:Eine_Untersuchung%C3%BCber_den_Erotischen_Verkleidungstrieb
For some reason, Nazi Germany went with it, despite him being a Jew and gay, both illegal in Nazi Germany.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transvestitenschein
Rich people funding politics for rich people is not a conspiracy at all, it's obvious.
Politics bought by rich people is also obvious.
Rich people owning all the media is also a fact, they socially engineer with it.
But it started right away with transhumanists after WW1
https://thereader.mitpress.mit.edu/masters-of-crowds-the-rise-of-mass-social-engineering/
https://academic.oup.com/jmp/article-abstract/35/6/622/968763
Billionaires and transhumanism( including transgender) are traditionally linked
https://www.huxley.net/transhumanism/
This is the brother of Aldous "brave new world" Huxley, who just wrote a book about his brother's dangerous visions of eugenics.
https://phys.org/news/2020-10-big-money-donors-political-average-voter.html
That too is for both parties.
https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918871445/big-donors-pay-to-play-politics
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-science-of-power-billionaires-elites-and-social-mobility/
collapse-ModTeam@reddit
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cathartis@reddit (OP)
I refer you to my previous post.
And here is the cheap tacitc you seem to be using in your post:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop
WildAutonomy@reddit
TL/DR?
54l3f154@reddit
I think Elon is gonna put those chips in everyones head and when they die, their conscience\soul somehow get uploaded to a simulation or prison and Elon uses them to pretend to have a.i. by forcing the trapped consciences to do things on a computer screen or he's gonna put the souls into his robots and it's gonna be kinda like Warhammer40k either you'll be fighting or working in a factory as an "a.i." driven arm applying tape to billions of Amazon packages. You'll be inside a usb stick and they'll just hook you up to Machines...... You'll be a slave forever or till your usb stick breaks and then you could sit dormant till it gets fixed or destroyed.....