Swiss ban on face covering will apply from 2025 - SWI swissinfo.ch
Posted by AravRAndG@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 177 comments
Posted by AravRAndG@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 177 comments
VengaBusdriver37@reddit
I recently learnt of the “tolerance paradox” and agree with it, this response to intolerant minorities in an open society is ethical https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
This makes sense since it doesn’t discriminate against all Muslims, only those intolerant of the society’s values (equal rights for women, not punishing homosexuals etc)
mnmkdc@reddit
How does this intolerance accomplish this goal though?
virv_uk@reddit
A reddit classic might be the analogy you need
https://www.reddit.com/r/TalesFromYourServer/comments/hsiisw/kicking_a_nazi_out_as_soon_as_they_walk_in/
mnmkdc@reddit
I fear you’re on the wrong side of this analogy. Comparing Muslim women/muslims in general to nazis is not progressive.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
He’s comparing religious fundamentalism to Nazis in this analogy, not just Muslims.
mnmkdc@reddit
Sure. It’s always Muslims though rn. They’re the current scapegoat. And to be clear the policies purpose is to take Muslim women’s freedom away. It’s not “how can we get this group of people who are already here on board?” It’s “how can we make sure these women don’t feel welcome?” It’s the wrong approach and it’s the same excuse every racist uses every time. Trust me, everyone knows you think it’s different this time.
The far right is gaining support because of the opposition to this minority group. Youre offering the nazis a seat if anything.
macrocosm93@reddit
Islam and secularism are not compatible. If you value living in a secular society then it is ethical to let Muslims know that they aren't welcome unless they reject Islam.
mnmkdc@reddit
There's plenty of muslims, christians, and jews that are perfectly compatible with secularism. Europe is just doing their best to make sure muslim people don't feel comfortable integrating.
macrocosm93@reddit
It is an inherent problem in Islam. To say otherwise is disingenuous. And even if there are some Muslims who are OK wih secularism, those ones aren't wearing niqab.
mnmkdc@reddit
We can say objectively it’s not because there is no shortage of Muslim people functioning perfectly fine with society. So how does this change Islamic fundamentalism other than proving that the state is against them?
macrocosm93@reddit
Well Muslim women wearing face coverings in public is not even mentioned anywhere in the Quran. Its something that is specific to fundamentalist sects. Why do you think its something that needs to be protected?
And the state should be against fundamentalist Islam. All sane societies should be against it.
mnmkdc@reddit
Because people should have freedom and a large reason fundamentalism has grown is because of the west’s shitty treatment of the Middle East
macrocosm93@reddit
So this is a white guilt thing for you? Got it.
mnmkdc@reddit
Yes! Any time anyone talks about the harm caused by imperialism it’s a white guilt thing. Very intelligent argument and totally not a deflection from a well established fact.
The fact that literally everything is watered down by morons saying “white guilt” and “virtue signaling” is so frustrating. It’s such a reactionary conservative cop out response.
macrocosm93@reddit
I would also like to point out that headscarves were officially banned in Turkey in 1982 are still officially banned (even if not usually enforced). This ban includes not just niqab, but also hijab which does not cover the face. So it's OK for 99% Muslim Turkey to ban all forms of headscarves but its "racist" for Switzerland to ban niqab?
mnmkdc@reddit
No, that wasnt okay either
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
This is just ignoring the valid arguments being made and assuming it’s all fascism.
mnmkdc@reddit
No its because this literally does nothing for progress and is purely discriminatory. That's the point. The facade of this being about stopping religious fundamentalism isn't convincing here. If you want social change then actually try it first rather than going straight for right wing politics.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
Once again you wave the argument off as being a front for Nazism and not tackling the valid argument.
mnmkdc@reddit
What valid argument? The only counter that was given to me was comparing muslim women to nazis.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
It wasn’t. I said it was about religious fundamentalism which you agreed with.
mnmkdc@reddit
No I said the target is always muslims and religious fundamentalists are literally on your side because you guys refuse to engage with how all of your policies amount to nothing more than stripping freedom for women most of the time.
I'm telling you, every single time racist policies have come into play in history, the racists say they're doing it for a good reason. Hide behind the same excuse all you want, but this kind of policy is transparent. There is literally no reason for it and if anything it might worsen the situation.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
I said the analogy was being made against fundamentalism not against Muslim women. You agreed with this then followed it up by not arguing against the points being made and instead said that anyone making this argument is just a Nazi.
mnmkdc@reddit
Its being used against muslim women and the only targets ever for this argument are muslims. That's the point as I've said 3 times now. You guys have picked a scapegoat minority and YOU and others are trying to liken them to nazis for your justification. You have not offered any valid arguments so I'm not sure what else there is for me to respond to.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
Again just because a Muslim women is targeted does not mean the policy or analogy isn’t directed at religious fundamentalism. You’re not tackling the argument you’re just painting any argument as being a facade for Nazism. If I was as unintelligent and bad faith as you are I could simply wave anything you say off as you being an ISIS sympathiser.
mnmkdc@reddit
But its always and always muslims being targetted here. Your point is moot. You are literally siding with the fundamentalists.
And again, I didn't bring up the nazis, so quit the victim bullshit. You guys are such hypocrites.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
Yes Muslims will be targeted when targeting Islamic fundamentalism. Very intelligent point mate. You’re obviously just an anti-women ISIS sympathiser.
wannaberebelll@reddit
“anyone who has any sympathy for the dirty disgusting muslims are terrorist sympathizers”
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
You read that whole thread and didn’t realise I was using the same bad faithed logic back at him?
mnmkdc@reddit
Okay when you target anyone else let me know. Until then, enjoy hanging out with the nazis and the religious fundamentalists while pretending you don't know why they're with you.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
Especially when it deliberately ignores Muslims who fought against the Nazis. If anything, that's a way to dehumanise Muslims. The Nazis were big fans of dehumanising people
Darkling5499@reddit
Except the "Paradox of Tolerance" is not only taken out of context, but solely used in justification of being intolerant towards people you don't like. The whole "well they don't tolerate X so i dont have to be tolerant of them" does nothing but create an ouroboros of conflict and resentment.
ROSRS@reddit
Yea, the Paradox of Tolerance is taken out of context. The Paradox of Tolerance as Popper originally wrote it was referring to intolerance as “people who are unwilling to engage in open debate and the democratic system and instead advocate violence”
Those people you can and should suppress violently. But Popper advocated specifically against suppressing any other views with the force of law.
landswipe@reddit
Well, it is a paradox... Ouroboros manifest.
GalacticMe99@reddit
You really wanted to use that word didn't you?
SG508@reddit
This would mean dealing with people who force women to walk like that, not preventing women from walking like that
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit
Not all but most are radicalized
CalligoMiles@reddit
I like to frame it as a contract rather than a paradox. You're only due the tolerance you extend to others - if you're intolerant, the contract stops including you.
landswipe@reddit
Fascinating, this paradox cuts directly to the subversive undertones in society.
sintemp@reddit
Thank you for this, very interesting. We tolerate the intolerants way too much nowadays
b1tchlasagna@reddit
A Muslim born in the country you live in, is an immigrant? Wut?
oursfort@reddit
I understand the intention of this ban, but it doesn't seem very effective to force people into changing their habits. It might be that some women who cover their faces simply won't leave home anymore.
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
Maybe they could go home instead. Everyone would be happier.
Longjumping-Jello459@reddit
The thing is you can't force change on a cultural level that will last. What this type of ban will probably do is just force a woman to remain home instead of being in public.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
The Muslim women who were born there?
Britstuckinamerica@reddit
Well, I suppose Switzerland isn't the right place for people with that worldview
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Switzerland and worldview? You don't even want to go down that road.
TheRealMudi@reddit
Hello. Muslim Swiss here. I think it's bullshit for the following reason: there's exactly about 32 women in this country that actually wear a niqab. 32. So few we know them by name. Hell. I've met 6 of them through out my life already.
Do I support Niqabs? Not really. Many Muslim majority governments don't like them. As example, in Egypt you must show your face to law enforcement as soon as ordered to. You're not allowed in departments and stations with one.
Is this a necessary ban or do I support it? Also no. As I said. Only 32 people. Muslims are a minority in this nation making up about 5.5% of the population and many of them don't even practice it that much. It's just the SVP (our far right party) doing as much as they can to quench foreigners and minorities. Similar to the minarete ban back in... 2009? I think? They literally depicted mosques as firing missiles in the newspaper back then lol
Whooshless@reddit
Bro do those 32 all live in my city? I think I saw them all, every day, this summer.
This is about thousands of tourists, not 32 residents.
Winjin@reddit
Please forgive people for not supporting the most backward and aggressive branches of Islam.
As someone from a country with multiple Muslim regions and a wife's side of family from Tatarstan, I can say for certain that if they don't want to integrate, they should probably reintegrate into places that are pro-niqab, like Iran or Afghanistan.
They are causing enough issues with erosion of women's rights in Muslim majority regions as it is.
TheRealMudi@reddit
I do not support niqab wearing and wouldn't want it to be a nation wide thing. My wife does not wear it, as example. But, if it is their free will, then so be it. As example, my wife used to live in France and could not wear a hijab. When she moved to Switzerland, she started wearing it from her own choice and will. Still. Some people tell her I opress her, although when I married her she wasn't wearing one and I never mentioned to her to wear it.
MeadowMellow_@reddit
I want to be clear, Hijab is legal in France. Unless your wife had a government job (public services workers aren't allowed Any kind of religious display during working hours), she would be free to wear a hijab. I see many women wearing them in my part of town, they have every right to wear it. It is banned to cover their faces though and they can be fined for that.
TheRealMudi@reddit
Legally, it is allowed. But many work places did not allow her to wear it. And if they did, after a month or so they would usually ask her to take it off because "it makes some coworkers uncomfortable".
MeadowMellow_@reddit
Then they are just being xenophobic/islamophobe. Unless it was specified in her contract clause, that is illegal. I'm sorry she had to deal with this outrageous bullshit.
_AldoReddit_@reddit
I think they are banning it in prevention
AshrifSecateur@reddit
People generally should have the freedom to dress as they like, in my opinion, but I'd be lying if I didn't say how uncomfortable it makes me seeing women wearing a niqab in London. There's more of them here than I've seen in countries with several times the Muslim population.
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Being uncomfortable is no reason to strip people of their freedoms.
LowRevolution6175@reddit
there's a little bit of a circular argument here, because a niqab is stripping women of their freedom also.
LUHG_HANI@reddit
Personally think the majority of the wearers would rather not wear them. Still should be freedom to do whatever but some are being forced to wear them.
OblivionTU@reddit
you went from “majority to “some”
Which is it?
(It’s definitely the latter. Some are definitely forced but the majority do it on their own.)
TurdTampon@reddit
It depends on how you define "do it on their own" within the confines of religious indoctrination
OblivionTU@reddit
Yeah well that’s clearly not what we’re talking about then that goes back to freedom of religion . If they aren’t being harmed or harming anyone, they should absolutely be free to practice their beliefs
Bike_Of_Doom@reddit
Not if done voluntarily, then who cares (beyond my belief that it’s a backwards practice and belief system). I know two different women who voluntarily converted to Islam and started wearing them and while I think it’s ridiculous, it’s neither the law nor the custom of the broader society to require women do that in my country and so long as they’re not being coerced or threatened into doing it, actions which anyone would readily agree out be forbidden and criminalized, I don’t think the state ought intervene in the voluntary conduct of an individual exercising their own freely held religious belief that only impacts herself.
sheffield199@reddit
Problem is that it's impossible to differentiate between those who want to wear them and those who are forced to.
Mavian23@reddit
Should the solution to that problem be to ban anyone from voluntarily wearing one?
worfres_arec_bawrin@reddit
Yes
Mavian23@reddit
What if someone feels that it is a violation of their religious expression? Like, they feel they are obligated to wear one due to their religion?
CobberCat@reddit
Muslim countries have no problem telling people what to wear. I think that in Western countries, it is expected to at least see each others' faces. Niqabs or any similar face coverings should be banned.
Mavian23@reddit
Even when it's cold outside?
worfres_arec_bawrin@reddit
It’s not effecting all the Muslims, just the ones that ones that are majorly against and intolerant of the society’s values that they’re in. Paradox of intolerance. Plenty of other places allow you to wear that if it’s that important, boo hoo if the extremes of your religion don’t fit in the society you’re in.
Mavian23@reddit
What values is voluntarily wearing a face covering intolerant of?
dragenn@reddit
Can l interest you in Sharia law???
Bike_Of_Doom@reddit
Not particularly no. But allowing someone to wear some stupid fabric around their head doesn’t require we implement an entirely antithetical legal system that violates people’s rights to the whole of society.
dragenn@reddit
Honour killing is legitimate in their views. I've witnessed people growing who were murdered by their family for not following the strict laws.
Brilliant women that were going places.
One fell in love with a non-Muslim. Dead!
One wouldn't marry a 50 yr old as one of his multiple wives. She was gorgeous. Dead!
One didn't have the motivation to be a top student. Dead!
This is a small sample, and while l was in high school. I knew these women.1 killer was put in jail, and the other 2 fled back home.
I'll say it is a hard pass...
Ropetrick6@reddit
Did you miss the part of their earlier statement that said "as long as it only impacts oneself"?
Bike_Of_Doom@reddit
Apparently and seemingly the part where I came out against Islamic Sharia too
Bike_Of_Doom@reddit
Yes, I’ve personally experienced a deeply religious Pakistani woman refuse to shake my hand because we’re of the opposite sex. You’re not going to find me supporting things like honour killings or arguing in favour of sharia law. It’s harmful because it is violative of the rights of others that our liberal society holds as important and just. What you will see me tolerating is things like allowing people to freely choose to wear particular clothing that they want to wear because so long as it’s a personal decision and isn’t coerced then it only impacts the woman herself. And this is a universally held principle by me, nuns should be allowed to wear their attire outside the nunnery just as much as a Muslim woman, of her own free will, should be allowed to choose to wear a niqab.
splader@reddit
I'm going to give you the freedom of choosing how to dress by not letting you choose how you dress!
You see the irony there?
cox_the_fox@reddit
What if that’s her choice
tabernumse@reddit
Not a great argument imo. A niqab is a type of clothing that one can wear for a variety of different reasons and motivations. If your husband is forcing to wear it, the primary problem wouldn't even be the object of the niqab itself, but the fact that your husband apparently feels entitled to control you. Being reductive, and at the same time impose a doctrine that the state gets to decide how you dress, unquestioningly reduces freedom.
GalacticMe99@reddit
Bit of a two-edges sword. If you ban it, you protect the people forced to wear one, but you also take the freedom away from those that want to wear it.
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Precisely. I'm all for liberating women from various bonds, but if it's by choice, it doesn't help anything.
GalacticMe99@reddit
On the other hand it's also not like Muslims showed up in Switserland yesterday and today they already show up with this ban. Clearly there is no proper way to protect Muslim women from religous oppression. If you ask them 'Do you wear this out of own free will' with their father and 5 brothers standing behind her, ofcourse you will get a 'yes' as response 100% of the time.
cox_the_fox@reddit
If a woman is facing religious oppression then there are bigger factors at play than the niqab and this ban isn’t going to do anything. If anything it’ll make it harder for her to go out, go to school, get a job, mingle with society and eventually get independence.
selfStartingSlacker@reddit
As a woman who grew up in a Muslim cuntry I would err on the safe side and stick to Switzerland instead of returning to Germany (where this ban will never happen).
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Fair enough. I have neither the experience nor right to say otherwise.
cox_the_fox@reddit
How exactly is it protecting them? If a Muslim woman is living in a dominating household where she’s forced to wear a niqab then most likely she’ll be forbidden from going out, restricting movement and freedom. So this would just make things worse.
Winjin@reddit
We have Afghanistan and Iran and y'all still pretend normal women WANT that?
houseofprimetofu@reddit
Are you a woman?
Winjin@reddit
I'm neither a woman, Swiss, or religious. Also I don't believe oppressive religions have any place in modern society. And the rise of right-wing parties all around shows that more and more people are fed up with multiculturalism as in "we will pretend they are not being oppressive because this is racist to say".
This stance on religion has got nothing to do with race.
houseofprimetofu@reddit
No it’s “don’t speak for women unless she asks you to.”
Winjin@reddit
Yeah, that worked fucking awesome in Afghanistan didn't it
houseofprimetofu@reddit
That wasn’t explicitly about hijabs and niqabs, was it? This is different. This is a western country deciding it can control what a “free” population can do.
Winjin@reddit
For as long as people die for the right to get rid of hijab in Iran, no free country should condone this cancer on society. And I will not let anyone try to silence me about this, too.
If they have enough courage to speak up while they still can, we need to help them, not pretend that this is "freedums". We're too tolerant with intolerant extremists.
Sabbathius@reddit
Some do. But it's nuanced. Some don't want to, but they want the freedom to wear it if one day the fancy strikes them.
Best way to explain it I can think of is the difference between military service and draft. Women want to be able to sign up for military service. But they don't want to get drafted. One of those is an individual woman choosing to join armed forces for pay. The other is being told here's a weapon, go kill that person over there, and if you refuse it's prison or summary execution right here and now. One is a choice, the other is violent oppression.
Afghanistan and Iran are violent oppression, not fashion. The fashion is just an element, a tool. Instead of a niquab or hair cover they could be telling women to wear a red clown nose. And it would still work the same. Because it's not about the clown nose, it's about the violent coercion. Imposing your will and control, violently, over another group and having them visibly comply with your orders by wearing the arbitrary signifier of your choice.
headshotmonkey93@reddit
Lol women don‘t wear it freely.
lapsongsouchong@reddit
Lol, you don't have any friends who wear niqab, so how would you know?
8-BitOptimist@reddit
The ones that do wear it freely beg to differ.
enilea@reddit
They do it freely only because they've been taught that's the moral way to dress. And some might feel coerced by the family to do it at the cost of being disowned and rejected from the community. If from a youmd age a woman is told that the correct thing is to wear a niqab, not to drive, not do a bunch of things without the permission of her husband, not talk to other women (in extreme cases), etc. she might follow it voluntarily because that's what she's been taught is correct and because other people expect her to, but it doesn't make it okay.
I guess there's a blurry line between what should and should not be allowed that would depend on each person's opinions. Like for me a hijab is fine because it doesn't look as restrictive and it can be seen as a cultural way to dress, kind of like sikhs. But a full on burka or niqab feels way too restrictive and humilliating, straight up treating people like objects that only the husband can see.
ihassaifi@reddit
What you expect from an Indian, persecuting minorities is in trend over there.
AshrifSecateur@reddit
Whatever you say.
ihassaifi@reddit
It’s a fact, not whatever.
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
They are absolutely free to go elsewhere if they don't like it there.
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Same goes for you.
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
Indeed. I don't go around Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan or other sh.. err nice places, telling them how to live their miserable lives, I respect their customs and don't try to impose mine on them.
Everyone's happier this way.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
Except the women who wear that don't tell you how to live your live or impose how they're wearing on you either. You're clearly not respecting their customs if so
Are sub cultures not respecting customs? Are they imposing their culture on you by merely existing?
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
I totally respect their right to follow the teachings of their medieval pedophile slaver prophet in its native habitat. I just don't believe it's a good fit for my habitat, because you see, je suis Charlie.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
So Christians should also go back to the middle east? Or is it just Muslims? My own family isn't from the "native habitat" and I'm ex Muslim myself too
You're coming across as a racist but pretending you're not.
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
I'm not Christian, and if they were as much of a problem as followers of that other middle eastern asshole, I'd be all for going Robespierre on their ass ... again.
As for you calling me racist, being currently located a mere kilometer away from the Bataclan, all I can say is, I freely admit to having some negative feelings about a certain religion. Mass murder does that to a person, I'm told. That's not prejudice, thats postjudice. Also religion is not a race.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
Did I say you're a Christian? Funny how you can't answer the question. Jewish people however are a race and a religion. If you suggest that Muslims are somehow inherently problematic, that tbh shows you have Nazi tendencies. They said the same thing about Jews, and it is usually based in racism too especially your comments saying "go home" when the people you're against were born in that country.
You're tyring to be clever by pretending you're just a general bigot to Muslims but your own post history betrays you
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
You throw the N word around so much, it's completely meaningless.
Samuel Paty
Bataclan
Charlie Hebdo
All victims of that totalitarian, murderous ideology, but we have to tolerate them otherwise we're big meanies. An ideology that demands that atheists like myself be murdered.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
Once in that post... . Christian fundamentalist is why the US is how it is. It's why abortion is banned in lots of Poland. It's why Northern Ireland is so screwed. It's why terrorists attack abortion clinics. It's why the AFD is on the rise too. Religion and right wing populism go hand in hand, even yet you don't wish to do the same to Christians
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Right-wing-populism-and-religion-in-Germany%3A-and-Althoff/40307a300e463aeaae9bbf3ceabc2eb6e092247b
So why don't you want them to go to the middle east? Why haven't you gone Robespierre on their arse? When it comes to CAR, you have Christians that persecute and torture people who aren't Christian too. Should they go back to where Christianity is natively found too?
Also, no you don't have to tolerate terrorists. Nobody said that, but if you're generalising an entire people as terrorists and then telling them to "go home" but you're apparently "not racist" even though you specifically told people to "go home", then you're going to be called out for it.
This being said, you clearly do tolerate terrorism when you actively ignore the link between right wing extremism in Europe and religion being interlinked (in this case, Christianity)
In majority Muslim countries, right wing extremism and Islam go hand in hand too. In India, it goes hand in hand with Hindu nationalism. In Israel, it goes hand in hand with Judaism too.
Right wing pppulism and religious fundamentalist are inherently linked, yet you don't wish to go Robespierre on people who you deem to belong in Europe. I wonder if you'd tell a Christian in CAR to "go home" too if they ever see foot In Europe.
InSight89@reddit
Freedom or indoctrinated oppression?
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Both. Life is many shades of gray.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
I feel uncomfortable seeing a homeless guy take a piss in the middle of a busy street.
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Then support mental health treatment, drug rehab programs, and housing as a right.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
Public urination should be legal is an interesting argument.
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Tilting at windmills.
Disastrous_Factor_18@reddit
The point is that what we consider unalienable personal freedoms is decided by society. The conversation is about what should be allowed in society.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
I think you missed their point. Their point is the same as yours
8-BitOptimist@reddit
Their comment is a not-so-cleverly disguised bad faith argument.
freecodeio@reddit
I think the discomfort is what the dress stands for. For example, it's not that uncomfortable to see a ghost costume, but wear a partyhat under it and suddenly I'd feel a tingling feeling being around that person.
AshrifSecateur@reddit
Sure it is, when what’s making me uncomfortable represents religious fundamentalism and a desire to other yourself from society.
Sabbathius@reddit
Except in no modern society did anyone ever have the freedom to dress the way they like. Case in point, if I decide to walk around with no bottoms, just Donald Ducking it all the way, I'll be arrested. Doesn't matter on which continent I do it, the result will be the same. Because every society ever had its own tiny subset that it finds acceptable, and anything outside that norm gets you violently contained. Case in point, can I wear a koteka and walk down London's main street unmolested? No, of course not. But could I do it in New Guinea? Possibly. If I were the right color. If I, a pasty white dude, went over there today and tried it, I'd be pounded within an inch of my life. See? We never had that kind of freedom. Anywhere, ever.
Mavian23@reddit
There's a key word in their comment that I think you missed -- "generally"
Chuhaimaster@reddit
People exercising their rights makes me feel uncomfortable.
Mavian23@reddit
You're a fool if you don't understand that the discomfort they are expressing is the discomfort around not knowing if that person is being forced to wear one or not.
AshrifSecateur@reddit
You should work on that. Any rights in particular?
Chuhaimaster@reddit
Freedom of expression.
AshrifSecateur@reddit
Then I suggest you either campaign to put restrictions on it where you are now, or easier still, move to a place where it’s already restricted. A lot of countries in the developing world will suit you.
Chuhaimaster@reddit
Why are you so afraid of people making their own fashion choices? No one is forcing you to don a burka. Do Muslims scare you?
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit
It's called invasion for a reason.
GavrielAsryver@reddit
Honestly it makes sense considering the threat to public safety and security if you allow people to walk around with covered faces. It's a huge moral debate i guess but practically it's better this way. I wish this was implemented in more countries.
deprivedgolem@reddit
American here, how many veiled women have committed terror attacks in Switzerland? In Europe?
Are other masks disallowed (medical masks, balaclavas, etc?)
TheRealMudi@reddit
There are about 30 to 35 women that wear a niqab in Switzerland.
deprivedgolem@reddit
So what’s the threat to public safety? If all the women wearing niqab are documented…
TheRealMudi@reddit
There is none. Its a racist law that passed the vote. They claim it isn't - they say because this ban applies to hiding your face in public in general, for everyone, including in protests and such, it is not racist and based on hate for foreigners and different people. But they still used women wearing niqabs in all of their posters and campaigns for the voting campaign.
Winjin@reddit
You do know that niqab is not mandatory in Islam? This is religious fundamentalism. These are the most extreme islamists that force their backward worldviews on other Muslim and non-Muslim nations.
Tatarstan and Bashkortostan have been Muslim for centuries and they don't cover their hair or faces. The push to do it comes from Saudis and their lapdogs that want to divide people and enforce THEIR version of oppressive Islam teachings.
TheRealMudi@reddit
Yes, I know it isn't mandatory in Islam, which is why I don't support it. But if it is truly their will, then let them be. They are not causing any problems.
Winjin@reddit
You cannot convince me women wear them out of their free will. I will never believe anyone wears them freely. It can't be anything but peer pressure.
I have seen the disgusting way the women that are "holier than thou" speak about those that don't cover their hair. That is enough to imagine the absolute barrage they are met with for resisting if their family or "support group" is "stricter, cleaner, and holier" than others.
splader@reddit
Imagine being so close minded.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
There is one niqabi in my entire family. Most of them don't even wear the hijab. Many are also covering up in opposition to their husbands who don't want them to look "visibly Muslim"
Winjin@reddit
Well if that's not "freezing my ears off to spite grandma" then I don't know what is. Great idea all around, what could I say.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
By having free choice to wear what they want? And to directly oppose what their husbands want? Which is for them to not look so visibly Muslim?
Winjin@reddit
If it's something both Taliban and Iranian police enforce, yes, promoting this seems like a bad idea.
b1tchlasagna@reddit
I have an issue with dictating what women can and can't wear. France and Switzerland are therefore just as bad as Iran and the Taliban then. Why should it be up to any man what women can and can't wear?
FYI, when speaking to most ex Muslim women, they're not even on your side. They're on the same side as myself for the most part. It isn't up to you to decide.
TheRealMudi@reddit
I must admit, I don't know any woman that covers their face on a personal level, how they live their life, etc. I lived in Iraq between 2011 and 2014, though, and have seen how organisations such as ISIS force their extremist views upon people and how they have hurt my relatives. I also recognise that branches such as Wahabism are extremist ideologies that put such pressure on their women. I merely meant that if a woman truely wanted it, it shouldn't be banned. But I also understand if there is a true security concern. Another example would be my morrocan ex. She wanted to wear the niqab but I was completly against it and told her I would break up if she does. Her family did not allow her to do it either — but she really wanted to, without anyone forcing her. But perhaps this is an example that supports your point of view rather than mine. Because she did like and support the Taliban which at the end lead to our break up anyway.
Winjin@reddit
A woman, willingly supporting Taliban... Ouch.
MasterBeeble@reddit
What's the huge threat to safety and security that issues from face coverings? Genuine question. Even if your country has an issue with people running round with masks on committing crimes left and right (and I'm not sure which countries do), probably the masks aren't the underlying problem that needs solving.
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
It's strongly correlated with mass murder.
splader@reddit
Wait, so this sub is just full on racist or something?
MasterBeeble@reddit
Face coverings don't kill people. If there's a problem with the people who wear them (and I'm not claiming there is), then the action should be taken against those people, not the articles of clothing they happen to be correlated with wearing.
West_Ad_9492@reddit
It is a symbol of never wanting to integrate, and hating the host country/culture.
MasterBeeble@reddit
I agree, but I still fail to see how banning the face coverings solves that problem. If the problem is that people are refusing to integrate, then policies should be made that encourage/enforce integration. Banning symbols is performative; it may or may not exacerbate the situation but surely it can't bring about meaningful positive change.
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
It might nudge them into moving to a place more suited to their mindset and culture instead.
MasterBeeble@reddit
These are refugees who have been fortunate enough to find themselves accepted into a nation-state that is willing to subsidize them outright. No amount of "nudging" will accomplish anything.
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
If someone saved my life, I'd have the decency to be grateful and try not to offend my savior with inappropriate behavior.
MasterBeeble@reddit
I understand that humans in general are swayed significantly more by food and housing security than they are by decency. No amount of decency can serve as leverage to convince refugees to cast themselves out to sea (again).
marcusaurelius_phd@reddit
We're just asking them to behave according to the local custom.
MasterBeeble@reddit
I know, and I'm not saying you're being unfair or anything. I'm just saying that asking nicely and expecting it to work is silliness.
West_Ad_9492@reddit
Yeah i agree.. It might make the Muslim community feel less welcome in the host country, but really they should probably focus more on putting them in the labour force.
The real problem are the Muslim wifes that will stay unemployed on social welfare their entire lives. Never integrating or even learning the language.
Winjin@reddit
Niqab is not even mandatory in Islam. Hair covering is not mandatory! Tatars and bashkirs do neither.
This is literally religious fundamentalism and erosion of other Islamic nation's cultures, as well as erosion of women rights.
If you don't cover yourself as much as her, you are a fallen woman.
SleeplessTaxidermist@reddit
Hot take but I feel like it doesn't have place in today's world.
Niqab, foot binding, child marriage, genital mutilation of both genders, and much more....does not belong and needs to be locked away in the history books.
"Some choose..." cool, do it at home then
Gomeria@reddit
I mean, if everyon ran aroune with a balaclava
bsthil@reddit
You know there are plenty of people wearing them in the cold months in Sweden lol
Gomeria@reddit
I owned one myself, in here they are called mountain passers (as in, you can use it to pass across a mountain)
redpandaeater@reddit
I want to wear a balaclava because it's cold out.
muthaflicka@reddit
A Niqab is more of a cultural thing. Hijab is the general rule, and even then it sits at the lowest rung of the mandatory rules.
Winjin@reddit
I still don't understand y'all pretending like it's a moral dilemma.
The people enforcing niqabs would have no double qualms about forcing every woman to wear one.
SurfiNinja101@reddit
By that logic people shouldn’t be allowed to wear face masks and sunglasses
N0riega_@reddit
What a braindead way of thinking
sergei1980@reddit
Walking around with covered faces is still allowed, this is not about security concerns. We just spent a pandemic covering our faces and the world didn't end. They don't want non-Swiss customs.
"covering the face remains is allowed for reasons of health, safety, weather conditions and local Swiss customs. It is also permitted for artistic and entertainment performances and for advertising purposes."
aymanzone@reddit
This \^ 100%
As someone from Muslim background, I would rather not see this in society.
The main moral controversy that has going for it, is if you are allowed to ware a Halloween costume that covers the face, in public, everyday.
The face cover makes it impossible to say or talk to people - I can understand this, if it were the hundreds of years ago where you had tribes/countries/empires attacking smaller tribes, so the women would feel safer to cover.
icyserene@reddit
Everyone from women trying to hide themselves from Taliban to ISIS has used the burqa to hide themselves. It’s a whole thing.
warnie685@reddit
I'm wary of these fringe cases (it affects what, less than 50 people?) being used to enable blanket* bans on face coverings as we enter the era of facial recognition software
*There are some exceptions at least, but none privacy related
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit
As an Exmuslim I'm very proud of Switzerland for combating against the islamization of their country and protecting their cukture and values, more European countries should follow them.
panjeri@reddit
Does this apply to face masks because I think they can ignore this law in the funniest way possible?
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