Trump's victory: Is Europe now on its own?
Posted by Exastiken@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 427 comments
Posted by Exastiken@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 427 comments
WhitishRogue@reddit
Unlikely though they may have to make some concessions and deal with some drama to keep American support in Ukraine.
Trump has said some controversial things that he since walked back on once he came into more privileged information. I suspect he will get the briefing and reconsider.
Though Donald Trump is also pretty vindictive. A long time ago he lambasted Germany for relying on Russian energy, they laughed. Trump also criticized low defense spending within NATO and they laughed. I doubt Trump forgot any of that and will seek to embarrass them in return.
It's going to be a more bumpy ride for Ukraine at the very least. Will Trump give them more to get a resolution or will he shif American interests elsewhere hoping Europe will pick up the slack?
Luis_r9945@reddit
With RFK (known to hang out with Russian propgandist) Tucker (literally interviewed a Russian fascist) and Elon (Is in constant contact with Outin) by Trumps side....i really dont see American support for Ukraine continuing.
Europe and Ukraine are on their own.
SilverDiscount6751@reddit
Every big news network has had an interview with putin. And Clinton always babulates that those she doesn't like are russian assets. Do not base your jugement of others based on what Clinton said.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Funny that you think i was referring to Putin. No, Tucker also interviewed Alexander Dugin, a Fascist Imperialist, whose ideology is being pushed by Putin.
Unlike other networks, Tucker interviewed Putin with little pushback and straight up created Russian propaganda of their supermarkets.
Clintom never specified who was the Russian asset...but Tulsi was quick to defend herself lol
stonkmarxist@reddit
Surely this would require a large change in support from Republican elected reps. A large portion of them support Ukraines stand against Russian aggression.
I'm also not sure even Trump would have the political capital to pull support in such a way. There would be a 0% chance he'd beat the Russian stooge allegations if he did
spudmarsupial@reddit
Why would he care if he is seen to be a Russian stooge? He has never suffered consequences, no reason to think he believes in them.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
He's already seen as a Rusdian stooge. Didn't hurt him yesterday
SilverDiscount6751@reddit
Mainly because it was proven to be a lie from the clinton campain
pseudopad@reddit
Trump could declare in front of a dozen news reporters streaming/broadcasting live that he was a Russian puppet, and we'd still have a good 30% of the population thinking he was joking, and another 30% defending him being a puppet.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Republicans will fall in line as they did when they blocked the Bipartisan Border Bill.
They wouldnt dare stand against Trump and be deemed a Rhino.
Not after this election
Ok-Suggestion-5453@reddit
Yeah this has ended any debate about Trump Republicans vs old school Republicans for me. This election means that Trump's opinion will be the Republican opinion indefinitely.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
Trump is the end of US democracy the same way Caesar ended the Roman republic except he's a bumbling buffoon.
Maxcharged@reddit
Atleast Caesar had the grain dole.
LeMe-Two@reddit
At least Ceasar made it`s his goal to end Parthian menace
BramsBrigade@reddit
He's openly expressed that he thinks leaving the office the first time was a mistake, the only way they'll get him out is in a coffin.
The supreme Court has gone against established norms at least twice in recent memory. I have seen no indication of they wouldn't support him making himself a king
chambreezy@reddit
That border bill was not good and it would have been terrible if it passed!
Hope you wake up to the fact that you're in the minority, the rest of the people have clearly woken up to all the bullshit rhetoric and lies.
Going on about Tulsi Gabbard and Tucker Carlson as if they are Russian spies, get a grip man. This is the reason your party lost, because you lost touch with reality.
Darkling5499@reddit
Surely, if we continue to call everyone who doesn't vote for us garbage nazi fascists, they'll change their minds!!!
redviperofdorn@reddit
Trump literally called people who don’t support him human scum
ExistingCarry4868@reddit
The Nazi's also denied they were fascists.
Darkling5499@reddit
"We're going to call you garbage nazi fascists and use the fact that you say you aren't as PROOF you are garbage nazi fascists"
ok then.
ExistingCarry4868@reddit
It's very clear that the current political right in the US is fascist. Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't understand what fascism is. The fact that they are garbage people is more debatable, but under every form of morality or ethics I have ever studied they look bad. I don't think I can change any of the trumpist's minds, because I don't think they have the intellectual capacity for either research or self reflection, but I can help wake up normal people to the danger of letting violent fascists into power.
TheRustyBird@reddit
shit, when you have nazis waving nazi flags at your rallies...not sure how else to take that except your holding nazi rallies?
riskyrofl@reddit
If we just keep changing the definition of authoritarian as Trump keeps pushing the boundary, everything will be fine! Getting a mob to storm the capitol, telling everyone he will be a dictator on day one, totally fine!
hollow114@reddit
If Trump stopped saying shit like "poisoning the blood of America" a literal Hitler quote. Maybe people would stop making the comparison?
chambreezy@reddit
Gosh darn, how did we not see that that was a terrible strategy!! Damn, maybe in another 4 years we'll call them super-murderers and we'll convince them then.
loggy_sci@reddit
Which candidate was talking about immigrants eating dogs?
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
Gabbard and Carlson aren't Russian spies silly.
They're Russian assets. There is a difference.
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
Never said they were spies, they just suck him off relentlessly
Ostroroog@reddit
Yes they blocked it but it wasn't "Border Bill"
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-senate-unveils-118-billion-bipartisan-bill-tighten-border-security-aid-2024-02-04/
LOL
UNisopod@reddit
They separated it out later on and the GOP still voted against it.
Ostroroog@reddit
And soon enough they can pass whatever they want.
UNisopod@reddit
They'll still have to deal with Democrat filibuster, but they'll get to control what legislation will be considered.
Luis_r9945@reddit
The bill was seperated from the Ukraine Aid...and was still shot down.
This is no secret. Trump literally asked Republicans to shoot it down because it would benefit Biden.
Republic lawmakers attest to this fact
Wheream_I@reddit
Holy crap how often does this have to be repeated.
Just because a single Republican senator took part in writing it, does not make it bipartisan. One senator does not represent the GOP.
Also it was an awful bill that put into law an acceptable amount of daily and weekly illegal immigration, which is idiotic. The acceptable amount is 0.
loggy_sci@reddit
The reason it didn’t pass is because the GOP wanted to campaign on immigration. They will continue to want to campaign on immigration.
clivet1212@reddit
Yeah how’d that work out? If the bill had been passed it would’ve blocked hundreds of thousands if not millions. You got your election win, but don’t act like you cared about the border now.
CatStacheFever@reddit
No, a large portion of them support the GoP, once trump is sworn in the GoP becomes his and they will support him.
Lol, acting as if Repubs have any sense of loyalty when the just instilled an insurrectionist who has promised to violate the constitution again and again. They don't even have loyalty to AMERICA, and you think they'll be loyal to Ukraine?
I have a bridge to sell you if you are interested
Socky_McPuppet@reddit
They are all spineless weasels and as others have said, they will fall in line.
The utter spinelessness of the Republicans is matched only by that of the Democrats.
aznoone@reddit
Many Democrats will be leopards ate my face.
aznoone@reddit
MAGA reps love Russia. Conservatives are now a third nothing party like Democrats.
gimmiedacash@reddit
If they fight Trump the MAGA will deal with them. He is a mobster.
OldBallOfRage@reddit
The rest of the Republican party are waxwork figures, it doesn't matter what they support. They'll stand wherever they're put.
NorthernerWuwu@reddit
A large portion of them rely on arms sales for their local economies and Ukraine aid is a nice source of that revenue. That may be cynical but ignoring morals entirely, there's a good portion of the Republican party that would want military aid to continue regardless of their opinions on the war itself.
They will likely insist on concrete remuneration though, in promised cash or assets.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
If those accusations don't make it to Fox News then they don't exist
Ropetrick6@reddit
The problem is you're expecting Republican politicians and leaders to have the slightest bit of integrity in the face of the Trump Qult. It's political suicide to not fall into line behind the orange messiah.
Also, Trump's in the process of dying. He's the oldest president in history, he has a history of drug abuse, and he's never been healthy. Even if he lives through his term, he won't live long enough to personally face repercussions for being a Russian asset.
Wolfensniper@reddit
If he died on the term we might had Vance which is just horrible
Ropetrick6@reddit
It is my sincere hope that Trump is too senile to do anything, too popular in the Qult to be deemed incapable of acting as president, an survives the entirety of his term. Sadly, signing whatever Project 2025 documents wind up at his desk, including judge selections, seems to be something he's still capable of doing for now.
I'd also accept the Rapture, Thanos Snap of the GOP, or alien invasion at this point. Our interstellar overlords are hopefully less prone to child marriage and murdering minorities than MAGA.
dcrico20@reddit
The GOP is not in support of Ukraine funding writ large, I have zero clue where you got that idea. The GOP is no longer the anti-Russia party of the Reagan years. If they didn’t have such a slim majority in the house, funding would have been cut off long ago.
The Democratic party is the party that is unified on this issue.
loggy_sci@reddit
There are some MAGA warhawks that want to fund Ukraine with more conditions on how the funding is spent.
dcrico20@reddit
Yes and they are the outliers in the party.
loggy_sci@reddit
The Outliers may have enough votes in the House to deal.
runsongas@reddit
the republican base will believe what they are told if Trump says he got Ukraine a very fair peace deal but they still rejected it. Putin may even offer a few small token concessions to make it seem like Trump is getting them a better deal.
ralphy1010@reddit
The ones who have been saying that will fall in line or they will be primaried by their own party and out of a job.
RCM19@reddit
Even assuming Congress bucks Trump and would continue to support sending money to Ukraine, the President has a lot of means to slow-walk that even if Congress were to overcome a veto of a bill appropriating funds for the effort.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Republicans will fall in line as they did when they blocked the Bipartisan Border Bill.
They wouldnt dare stand against Trump and be deemed a Rhino.
Not after this election
TheGreatSpaceWizard@reddit
Trump was impeached for trying to get Ukraine to open investigations into Hunter Biden's business dealings. That impeachment will be a black mark on his record forever. He has not forgotten, and I believe he will seek vengeance for it.
LeMe-Two@reddit
Trump made a person that screwed him over his VP. If he were to be upset about anyone who told or did something mean to him, only Hungary would be left as US partner
lambdaBunny@reddit
I'll be shocked if a lot of high ranking Democrats and their families don't flea the country. Hunter Biden in particular, as Trump being president basically means that every single weird lie brought up against him will now be true. I'm kind of surprised Nancy Pelosi and her husband haven't already left. Just sad as November 5th really feels like the day where all the bad guys won.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
If you accumulate enough black marks, you just end up with a 100% black coating. So long as you wear that with no shame, some people will love the look of it
[Edit: apologies for the slightly painful metaphor]
Emblem89@reddit
Small caveat, the USA weapon industry really wants to keep supporting Ukraine. Very rich and influential group there. Not saying Ukraine is gonna be fine, but it might complicate things.
cultish_alibi@reddit
They are sending very few new weapons to Ukraine. Ukraine is getting old American military supplies, and the MIC is making new weapons to restock the US. It's a subtle but important difference.
Somestunned@reddit
Restocking or selling new, either way they're making money from the conflict.
lambdaBunny@reddit
Not only that. Europe and Canada might be facing off against Russia and the US in the next cold/warm war.
new_name_who_dis_@reddit
It's funnier than that because Clinton never mentioned Tulsi by name, she just said one of the dem candidates is probably a russian asset. And Tulsi started denying that she was a russian asset.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
Trump himself has pribably been ensnared since the 80s.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/29/trump-russia-asset-claims-former-kgb-spy-new-book
They do this nearly universally to anyone has a chance if being important
icatsouki@reddit
what could they even hold against him that he'd care about?
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
Generally you use one thing to leverage another thing. At this point it might be a string of kompromat from sleeping with a 14 year old on film through to being on tape accepting money from Putin
aznoone@reddit
Then Trump can go full gore on some sort of US reset that will cause many suffering per his circle.
jarjarbinx@reddit
then trade will reopen between US and Russia. Russia will have enough money to keep the war going.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Yup.
Ukraine is cooked.
I hope zelensky is making moves to guarantee the existenx of Ukraine.
Airowird@reddit
The MIC will not be happy with that choice, especially not if they can get the EU to sponsor some US weapons to give to Ukraine in a deal!
Luis_r9945@reddit
The MIC has no choice.
Contrary to popular belief they are not puppet masters.
If it was up to then we would still be in Afghanistan
Airowird@reddit
The MIC has some choice, and it's called lobbying.
You insinuate that I think they call the shots, they do not. But to argue a trillion dollar industry has no leverage over decision-makers is .... idealistic.
GregRP@reddit
Seems like anyone who isn't a democrat, according your own post, is in league with russia, which stands testament to American media. Seems Russia HAS to be an enemy and the war in Ukraine MUST continue until Ukraine wins.
Instead, all the right (Republicans) propose is an end to the pointless death and misery. We, in Europe, who want to end the bloodshed also, value PEACE. We kept it, we held it, the democrats RUINED IT
MoratoryRex@reddit
Says who? The Ukrainians keep fighting, so obviously not them. The Russians keep sending more men, so not them.
Then you should probably be in favor of giving Putin a reason not to start wars. Giving him what he wants really seems counter productive
splader@reddit
Do most Ukrainians still support fighting in the war?
MoratoryRex@reddit
The Ukrainian government? Yes. The Ukrainian people? Divided.
My point was more along the lines of "It's not foreigners who can decide a war is pointless." If the Ukrainians don't want to fight the war, it up to them to sue for peace.
cultish_alibi@reddit
There's no end to Russia's war, even if they win in Ukraine, that's not the end, it just means Russia is free to attack more countries. Putin is a bloodthirsty warmonger, and murder and war is all he knows. If they take over Ukraine that only makes things worse.
But I'm sure a Putin-apologist such as yourself would never admit such a thing, would you? You just want peace, and all it takes is allowing fascist Russia to murder everyone who gets in their way.
Tricky-Ad5678@reddit
The US took over the process, but it is Europeans who caused and condoned Maidan (and Ukrainian and Eastern European nationalism in general), it was European leaders who sabotaged the Minsk Agreements, and it is European countries who wanted a "longer war for weaker Russia" and intervened in 2022 negotiations. It is Europe who wanted Georgia to open "the second front" against Russia, "There are three or four millions of you, Russians won't be able to kill everyone".
Doesn't look peaceful to me.
livehigh1@reddit
Ofc you're going to sound like a russian puppet because the proposal is to let them keep parts of ukraine as the invaders. Lol.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
I mean they will, and were always going to, that's not what any of this is about. Nor is it about faux outrage about invasions or what not. That shit is normal, and frankly based when we do it.
Bleeding Russia in Ukraine and getting the full mileage out of our pawns over there is in our national interests. I hope that the new administration continues the program. This is a prime geopolitical setup that doesn't come around very often.
thatthatguy@reddit
Peace through appeasement and capitulation. Give the aggressor everything they demand and maybe they’ll stop beating you up. Because that has worked so well every other time it has been tried.
Luis_r9945@reddit
I clearly stated (except maybe Tulsi) why these people are in leagues with Russia. Not even mentioning their Russian propaganda rhetoric.
There is a reason why Russia supports predominantly right wingers. They are isolationist...simple.
There is no Peace with Russia unless there is deterrence. Which requires standing up to Putin.
Appeasement never worked.
Its naive to think war will end if Ukraine gives up....but im sure you know what you are saying.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
It's not just that the American Right is isolationists, they also find the idea of the "Stronk Man" leader attractive.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
It's not really peace if you just do whatever Pooty the House Elf wants, it's just surrender with fewer steps.
annewmoon@reddit
lol yeah if we could just be kind to Russia they might play nicely!!
Zipz@reddit
Don’t forget Jill stein(the Russian asset) who won’t even call Putin a war criminal even though he has warrants out for his arrest.
OhJShrimpson@reddit
Lil bit of a stretch here buddy.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Is Trump not in close dealings with these people?
OhJShrimpson@reddit
Your premises are what's weak. RFK talks to a guy that interviewed Putin, so he is a Russian asset? Do you have any indication musk spoke with Putin on anything beyond SpaceX operations? Maybe he didn't want his rockets shot down?
Luis_r9945@reddit
RFK talks with Scott Fucking Ritter.
A Pedo who now propagates Russian propganda....
SpaceX operations are approved by the FAA and predominantly conducted by NASA....there is no threat of his rockets being shotndown.
Lol what a ridiculous statement
dcrico20@reddit
You live in fantasyland if you think Ukraine gets a dime of US aid under Trump and a government that is controlled by Republicans in every branch.
WhitishRogue@reddit
Incoming president's hold their own views. But upon access to more information and influential people, they snap to a more standardized approach.
Trump will have his deviations, but at the end he will be manipulated to do as he's told.
dcrico20@reddit
There are plenty of ways to keep the military industrial complex well fed that don't involve Ukraine, and we are likely to find out exactly what the flavor of choice will be for Trump and the GOP.
aznoone@reddit
Build the wall. Then against ourselves he doesn't like.
new_name_who_dis_@reddit
You know what's crazy that me and my friend talked about yesterday about Trump? That he convinced me and him (and probably most of the population of USA if not the world) that there was no wall between US and Mexico. The border wall was started in the 90s under Bush and Clinton and was basically finished in 2011 with the border being 1900 miles, and the rio grande being 1200 miles, and the wall being like 600 miles.
I had seen movies where cartels were digging under the wall to get into the US well before 2016, and yet he had me and majority of americans convinced that mexican-american border was just a free for all.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
Like Israel
dcrico20@reddit
Yeah my guess is Trump is gonna open the floodgates to Bibi.
new_name_who_dis_@reddit
Basically the worst case scenario.
dcrico20@reddit
Yup. He already promised one of his mega donors the annexation of the West Bank. I would not be surprised if the entirety of Gaza is resettled by Israel under a Trump admin.
aznoone@reddit
Trump and Vance with 2025 are set to reshape America forever internally. Dont care about external as isolationist. Well Trump admires strongmen.
UNisopod@reddit
This sort of happened in Trump's first term because he surrounded himself with people who had their own influence as a form of demonstrating clout. They ended up standing up to him on numerous occasions and we seem to have avoided the worst of Trump as a result. During the course of his term, though, he kept trying to cycle through people in search of the kind of loyal lackeys he was used to from his businesses. By the end of his term, he had kind of succeeded, and that's when they launched a couple of election undermining schemes.
Part of the point this time around is to remove as much internal government resistance to Trump as possible. He's going to start out with people around him who are going to be more like either yes-men or who have their own bizarre/extreme stances that Trump will likely let them loose with.
The thing about demagogues is that they have a tendency to slip their reins, or at least try to, and Trump is about as bullheaded as they come and has the public support from an adoring base to mostly do what he wants.
teremaster@reddit
I guess zelensky is in fantasyland then? Since he doesn't believe aid will stop
ev_forklift@reddit
People seem to forget that Trump met with Zelensky a few weeks ago
aznoone@reddit
Could have been if you give up what Russia already has meeting.
freeman2949583@reddit
It’s straight-up doublethink. Trump could send troops to Ukraine and people will pretend he didn’t. If Harris won she could have nuked Ukraine and dropped Zyklon B on Gaza and people would say “Well it would have been worse under Trump.”
-Xero77@reddit
That's just not true. While everyone is biased to accept more from their preffered candidate, the difference between Democrats and Republicans is huge. Kamala got a lot of flak during the DNC for supporting Israel, while Trump is a convicted felon and the GOP doesn't care. The vaccine isn't his achievement and he terribly mishandled Covid causing millions of unnecessary deaths. He held back support specifically because the more densely populated (democratic) areas were affected more.
ev_forklift@reddit
They don't care because the state of New York literally had to change the statute of limitations so he could be prosecuted in one case, and they had to invent a felony charge that they can't articulate so that their campaign finance case could move forward.
If this happened in an African country or in Russia, the rest of the world would have had a stroke
-Xero77@reddit
That's just not true. While everyone is biased to accept more from their preffered candidate, the difference between Democrats and Republicans is huge. Kamala got a lot of flak during the DNC for supporting Israel, while Trump is a convicted felon and the GOP doesn't care. The vaccine isn't his achievement and he terribly mishandled Covid causing millions of unnecessary deaths. He held back support specifically because the more densely populated (democratic) areas were affected more.
Skyrmir@reddit
He better be making backup plans with other allies. Trump will do exactly what Putin tells him to.
teremaster@reddit
Zelensky had a one on one private meeting with Trump before he made that conclusion.
None of us have
Skyrmir@reddit
Before he said that publicly, doesn't mean he believed it, and it would be moronic to say otherwise in Zelensky's position. Trump has zero reason to support Ukraine and every reason to do exactly what Putin want's him to.
aznoone@reddit
Why would he change his mind. Trump, Musk and others talk straight to Putin now. He promised US will stay out of wars. What would change his mind?
TwoShed@reddit
I think it's the anger that that Russian pipeline going to Germany wasn't just flowing energy in one direction, it was flowing cash in the other, straight back into the coffers of the Russian war chest.
Germany and Europe gave Russia all these funds, meanwhile skimping on their own collective defense. Now when NATO has a conflict just outside its borders, they want America to pick up the tab?
Europe has embarrassed themselves enough. What exactly does Europe bring to NATO besides a bill?
Ornery-Concern4104@reddit
To be fair, I'm not sure what he can embarrass Europe with. He's going to wreck the country, he's a clown who from the last time he was in power, is really bad at his job and more importantly, as we've seen last time, he has no bargaining chip or leverage to make anything stick with any form of impact. Remember the whole deal with Steel? The EU didn't take that lying down and pants him in front of everybody
The issue trump Is now facing is how much he's willing to relinquish power because we know the EU are very very very aggressively waiting for American control to slip on anything that affects the international market security or foreign policy. For years, there's been a tension between the EU and UN because of American control but that doesn't necessarily have to be a permanent thing and the EU knows this. It's why when establishing the EU peace keeping battalion, the EU was very happy to let any bad from it pass to the UN because it made it look like all offensive action was a result of the US
Icy-Cry340@reddit
At the end of the day europeans are dickless. Trump or not, we will remain on top.
Ornery-Concern4104@reddit
Hahaha, sure. No firm allies, no free trade agreements worth their salt, a Despot threatening to destabilise the world economy.
The EU has been WAITING for this to happen again, analysts genuinely can't believe their luck. The plan was around a 50 year thing but if Trump actually makes it office, the global plan is going forward a lot quicker
The next question now is a simple one, Russia needs friends. Who is it going to go to? China or the US? Thats the question I'm very very interested in
Ornery-Concern4104@reddit
Hahaha, sure. No firm allies, no free trade agreements worth their salt, a Despot threatening to destabilise the world economy.
The EU has been WAITING for this to happen again, analysts genuinely can't believe their luck. The plan was around a 50 year thing but if Trump actually makes it office, the global plan is going forward a lot quicker
The next question now is a simple one, Russia needs friends. Who is it going to go to? China or the US? Thats the question I'm very very interested in
radred609@reddit
You might, but nobody in america does.
berejser@reddit
That's because they lost.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
Why can't Europe pick up the slack?
DefinitelyNotMeee@reddit
Because we have plenty of our internal problems as well.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Yeah, Trump is an egotistical populist but he does care about US interests. Ukraine ending like Afghanistan would be a huge blow to him.
Europe itself is not at risk. Russia couldn't win a long war againts the entire EU even if the US wasn't involved. Best they could hope for is stalemate and I doubt that Putin would be willing to risk that, not to mention that there's not much to gain from randomly attacking a NATO country.
Rindan@reddit
Ukraine can't end like Afghanistan because there are no American soldiers in Ukraine. Pulling out of Ukraine is trivial. You just stop sending them stuff. Trump and more or less pull the plug on the first day of his presidency, and he is literally promised to do this. It is a delusional hope that Trump is going to continue to send weapons to Ukraine.
The fact that it was a strong Biden policy pretty much guarantees that Trump is going to end it, if the fact that Donald Trump and all of his buddies love Putin wasn't already true. You are completely delusional if you think that Trump is going to help Ukraine.
If Europe doesn't prepare for a victorious Russia high on defeating Ukraine, and no American support, Europe is going to find itself in the same situation that I found itself in World War II. There are a whole bunch of people running around saying that war is never going to happen again, even as everyone reloads and prepares to have war again.
teremaster@reddit
Zelensky had a private meeting with Trump last month and came out of it stating he does not believe the US will pull out under Trump
Rindan@reddit
Of course Zelenskyy is going to say that. His singular foreign policy goal in this world is to get as many weapons as he can to fight off the Russian invasion, and he is willing to kiss any ass to do so, including Donald Trump's. Zelenskyy is going to sing Donald Trump's praises in the hopes that he can flatter Trump right up until the day Donald Trump cuts funding.
He gains absolutely nothing by saying that Trump is an asshole that is going to fed Ukraine to Russia.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Trump is fundamentally an egotistical populist, yes. That’s why there is no possible way he would want to just cut off Ukraine, because there is no real way to spin that to his favor. What he will probably do is put more and more pressure on Ukraine to reach some kind of deal, because that is literally his whole image. And he wants to be responsible for the end of the war, as soon as possible. And probably he will threaten to reduce or even cut off all support, but actually doing that is a worst case scenario from his perspective. And I guess ours, obviously.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
"We are spending billions for Europe and they don't spend anything"
Paraphrasing but Trump has always wanted out of NATO and his supporters agree with him.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Well, that’s a somewhat tangential issue, but also just false. Read your own words. He doesn’t want out of NATO, he wants to force all the other member nations to pay a greater portion of the NATO budget. Whatever “their fair share” is, I doubt even he has any idea, and certainly won’t say it, so that any concession becomes a win for him. But, actually just like Ukraine, pulling out of NATO is a worst case scenario for him. It’s a failure that he would try to spin if he can’t get a deal. But absolutely not a goal.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
The other members of NATO won't ever pay enough to satisfy Trump, because they simply don't have the resources and Trump treats NATO as a transaction instead of a partnership.
Pulling out of NATO is the only way he gets to save face in front of his supporters and that's the most important thing to him. He already pulled out of the TPP during his first term leaving East Asia open to Chinese influence.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
NATO is a very different thing from the TPP, several orders of magnitude different. And frankly? I don’t agree at all that Europe won’t be able to pay enough, because he can basically force them to, and most importantly, Trump doesn’t have an actual number at all. He benefits just as much from getting minor concessions that his base can blow way out of proportion. I imagine there is going to be a deal he gets, which doesn’t meaningfully change much, but that he can call a win.
Rindan@reddit
The first thing Trump did when he got into office last time was repeal literally everything Obama did that he could do with a pen stroke. All of it. He will EASILY write off Ukraine as a corrupt beger nation, as he already has.
He will "spin" it as stopping wasting money on a bunch of corrupt non-Americans to fight a dumb proxy war against Russia. He will celebrate ending Biden's war and stopping to waste American money on corrupt foreigners.
That's literally what he is going to do. He is going to tell Ukraine to make peace and that there will be no more free weapons. Whether or not Ukraine submits, the support is over.
There is no scenario where Ukraine receives more weapons from the US after February. Ukraine is either going to stand alone with the pathetic amount Europe can offer and their domestic production, or they are going to lose a large swaths of the country in a negotiated settlement. Considering how Ukraine has no US support now, Russia will have a very strong incentive to continue the war and archive his maximal victory of dragging Ukraine back into the Russian empire either in whole, or in part with a Belarus style puppet for the rest.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
It feels like we aren’t even necessarily disagreeing here, but it’s definitely a worst case scenario for Trump to just drop Ukraine outright. What he will try to do at all costs is force through some kind of peace. He definitely does not want to be seen as just abandoning our allies. He builds himself up as a master negotiator and a peacemaker, who is going to end this war before he even gets in office somehow. So even if the obvious boast isn’t true, his whole base will eat it up if he gets a peace deal in Ukraine. Which obviously Ukraine won’t want to accept, or Russia, so who knows, but I figure it’ll just be a bad deal, long before he would be willing to leave Ukraine to be outright conquered.
Rindan@reddit
Bro, put the crack pipe down for a second and think back just 4 years ago. What in Donald Trump's 4 years as President left you believing that he is concerned about "abandoning our allies". Listen to his best buddies and allies, Tucker, Vance, Musk, Bannon, and all of those losers. Which one of them, all of whom are massive Putin fans who literally talk to Putin on the regular, do you think is going to pulling for him to not "abandon our allies"? Who on earth do you think Donald Trump would be trying to impress by not "abandoning our allies"?
I'm sorry, but you can't seem to grasp, despite the mountains of evidence, that Donald Trump doesn't give a shit about our allies. He sees them all as leeches leeching off of American power, hiding behind the American shield at the expense of the American people. This is like believing that Trump would never tear up the Iran deal (which he did) because he can't renegotiate a better one.
I predict that Donald Trump is going to do exactly what he did last time he got in office. He is going to repeal and cancel every single executive order and policy that Biden put in place. All of them, including the ones on Ukraine. Congress will cut all funding to Ukraine because its is now fully controlled by Republics who all bow to Trump.
The fact that Ukraine is fucked isn't going to bother him in the slightest. He seems them as traitors that didn't give him the dirt he wanted on Biden. He doesn't seem them as "allies", because they are not official allies and he likes Putin. He isn't going to see Ukraine falling to Russia as an American defeat, just a defeat for dumb globalist liberals who backed a loser.
But sure, Donald Trump the master negotiator will probably hand Ukraine a peace plan written by Russia, and Ukraine will almost certainly refuse it.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Did you even read what I said at all? Donald Trump styles himself as an expert negotiator. You know “worst trade deal in the history of trade deals” and all that. But dropping all support of Ukraine while the war is still ongoing is at worst an empty threat, and one he hasn’t even openly made, though he definitely wants everyone to think he will. It’s basic Trump negotiating tactics. Threaten to tear the world down if you don’t get your way, and be the leader of the free world with enough power to force everyone to just go along with it. That second part definitely helps.
But he won’t actually nuke North Korea, for example. Not only does he not want to, I doubt it’s even on the table. An empty threat. The same for Ukraine, and every other negotiation he’s ever been in. What he wants is peace in Ukraine, because it suits his image. And he wants it to be his peace. But the absolute worst case scenario is the US dropping Ukraine and Russia outright winning. It makes him look weak, like he couldn’t get Putin, or worse, Zelenskyy, to do what he wanted.
Rindan@reddit
You just can't seem to understand this. Donald Trump doesn't consider Ukraine to be a part of any American conflict. Donald Trump doesn't give two shits if Ukraine, a non-ally, falls to Russia. He doesn't see that as an American defeat, anymore than he saw pulling out of the Iranian nuclear deal an American defeat. He consider it undoing a dumb Biden policy.
If Russia rolls over Ukraine because he stopped giving Ukraine a bunch of free American weapons and money, he is going to point to that and say, "See, look at how dumb Biden was backing this shitty little non-ally against Russia." In your mind, Ukraine's victory or success is American victory or success. In Donald Trump's mind, it's a dumb Biden policy that is ending.
No it doesn't. It makes him look vindicated, especially in the eyes of the Putin worshippers that surround him. If anything, I suspect that Trump is going to prove he is a "master negotiator" by cutting Ukraine loose in exchange for stuff from Russia.
Putin's in a maximal position. He is going to offer peace deals that Zelenskyy can't accept. What's Trump going to do if he rejects them? Trump isn't going to keep throwing money and weapons at Ukraine, so Russia has no reason offer terms that Ukraine can live with.
The only thing Putin has to do is offer terms Zelenskyy can't accept while at the same time heaping praise on the "master negotiator" Trump. Putin will get everything he wants. The US will back down from support of Ukraine, ending the "dumb Biden policy" of helping a non-ally against someone that doesn't need be America's enemy. If Putin flatters him enough, I bet he can even start to get sanctions lifted in exchange for crap that isn't worth anything.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Not really. Losing the entire Ukraine would be a huge political disaster, it's not just about the troops. It would mean that Russia beat the US in a proxy war.
He might, but not on Russian terms. He will want to be seen as the person who brought peace, not the one who surrendered to Russia.
The world is not the same like it was in 1939. Russia doesn't have a reason to invade the entire Europe. I mean, what would be the plan even if they won? Genocide everyone and create space for the Russian people? Install puppet goverments everywhere? There's just no way it could work.
Czart@reddit
"We have ended the pointless conflict elites and warmongering democrats have dragged us into". This is how it's going to get sold.
Add some lines about "saving lives", "saving taxpayer money", "respect on international stage" and voila, they'll cheer on it.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
Trump has never once cared about this, it's no skin off his nose and his supporters won't waver in light of this news because he can spin it into whatever he wants.
Haunting_Charity_287@reddit
Lol you talk as if any of the political realities of any of this applies to trump and his base.
They hate supporting Ukraine and many are vocally supportive of Russia and want them to succeed.
Trump could inflict crippling geopolitical defeats on the west via massive loss in Ukraine and Taiwan and he wouldn’t lose a vote because he’d claim they were democrat projects and beside Putin is a swell guy. His supporters don’t care. They don’t live in reality.
Rindan@reddit
No, it would mean that Biden lost his evil war against poor victim Russians. Literally nothing that Donald Trump has said or done has given any indication that he would help Ukraine in any way shape or form. Donald Trump has spent significantly more time talking to and kissing the asshole of Putin than he has Zelenskyy or any other leader. You are casting your hopes and dreams into the air, and I'm telling you that there is any single drop of evidence to support with your saying. There is a massive amount of evidence that shows that Putin has a new man on the inside. Just look at all of Trump's close advisors. All of them are Putin fans. Ukraine is fucked in terms of American help.
Donald Trump just does not see the war in Ukraine is having anything to do with the Americans, and so he's going to be perfectly fine to watch Ukraine lose. These are Donald Trump's own words, so anything that else you're hoping for is just wishes in the wind.
Donald Trump isn't going to surrender to Russia. Donald Trump is going to make an ultimatum to Ukraine to try and get them to surrender, Ukraine is definitely going to reject that ultimatum, and Donald Trump will happily wash his hands of it and never think of Ukraine ever again. The fact that Ukraine will then lose a year or two after that won't mean anything. No one in Trump's circle gives a shit. They don't see it as their war, so they aren't going to consider a defeat when in the Ukrainians lose.
I agree that Russia will not invade all of Europe. It's going to salami slice Europe. They are already doing it. Every nation cursed to share a border with Russia that can't defend itself is going to find itself being slowly eaten, or have their politics completely dominated by Russia. This has already happened, so it's not even hypothetical.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
I highly doubt that but we'll see.
You're vastly overestimating Russian capabilities. Even the Soviets couldn't keep the Warsaw pact on their side without their military. The best they can hope for is keeping the former USSR states under their influence without the Baltics.
Rindan@reddit
You are vastly overestimating Europe's capabilities, especially if they are dumb enough to stand alone one at a time like they currently are. The Americans are the only thing making it seem like you can have high cost welfare states, an aging and shrinking population, and tiny militaries that would be out of ammunition after a month of war.
We already say this is Libya where the French start a "war" and realize that they are out of ammunition in a week.
You don't get it yet. The US out. Europe has lived under that shield for so long that they think they can't possibly be hurt and joke (and it's not always a joke) about getting rid of their military.
The Soviets kept the Warsaw pact together despite fantastical efforts by the US to break it up and fuck it. That's gone now. The Americans are not home. You are on your own. It's time to wake up to the fact.
Look at you; already salami slicing yourself up, totally sure that Russia will be satiated on its imperial ambitions by the time they get to you.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Again, even if Russia was to win what would they do? They can't occupy a territory of the size of Europe, hell even controlling the entire Ukraine would be a challenge. Remember Afghanistan or Iraq? Even the US had a hard time putting down the resistance in countries much smaller than the entire Europe with larger capabilities that Russia has.
Not to mention that in the case of a prolonged war, Europe would eventually be to outproduce Russia and use their manpower advantage. Russia isn't the Soviet Union, they don't have millions of soldiers ready.
Another thing is that even China wouldn't like if Russia was to conquer entire Europe. Plus Britain and France has nukes. There are so many reasons why this couldn't work it's crazy that you even consider it as a posibility.
Rindan@reddit
I agree that Russia is very unlikely to conquer "all of Europe". Good thing that's not a claim I made. Hitler never took "all of Europe". Literally no one has, ever, in the history of the world.
I said that Russia is going to continue to salami slice Europe like it already has, and that the slicing gets significantly easier when the US drops out of NATO. But sure, the Russians will be forced to stop when they hit a nation with nukes. How many nukes do you have?
You don't get it yet. Europe doesn't have an army that can defeat Russia. Ukraine and NATO are the only things in the way between Russia and the rest of Europe. The Baltic states are fucked without NATO.
Worse, Trump is going to take the financial pressure off Russia, so their economy is going to be improved, they will be able to work more openly with China, and in general they are going to get stronger while the eastern defenses of Europe get weaker. The EU is going to grow weaker, and the non-existent collective defense outside of NATO that has never been tested is going to be at the mercy of EU politics that are swinging right.
The only thing saving the rest of Europe after Ukraine is Poland. At least they recognize the threat and don't take it for granted that someone is going to save them, all they don't need to worry.
SneakyIslandNinja@reddit
I don't see how European nations building up nuclear arsenals, which I would support if what you say comes to pass, is in the interest of the US.
Germany could have a bomb in months if they seriously want to.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
A political disaster that would be forgotten by the Yanks by the time the next election rolls around.
Unkempt_Badger@reddit
A lot of his supporters don't care what happens to Ukraine. It would be nothing to him.
skunimatrix@reddit
If the EU started a full scale conflict joining in on Ukraine today they’d be out of munitions by the end of the Month without US resupply. Hell EU supplies of munitions lasted days in the Libyan intervention in 2011. Yes the EU could likely gain air superiority but the question is how long could they drop bombs and would it be enough to allow the massing of enough troops to break the Russian lines.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
I'm not talking about joining the war in Ukraine. I meant Russia invading the EU. Much easier to fight on your own territory.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
Not if your ammo stockpiles are as poor as Europe's are these days.
And there's another problem: too many countries, notably Britain (thanks Gordon Brown) lack a War Maintenance Reserve of replacement equipment and that's something that Lanchester's Law punishes very severely.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Not if you literally lack ordnance to fight with lol.
Luis_r9945@reddit
EU better start arming themselves.
The US is out with Trump.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
Afghanistan ended the way it did because of him.
One-Understanding-33@reddit
It seems that europe can‘t trust the USA anymore if all it takes is a change in leadership to say fuck it to security promises.
The only thing we can hope for is Putin somehow getting on the annoying oranges bad side.
WhitishRogue@reddit
There's a ton of experts and knowledgeable people in the government apparatus. While Trump is the most powerful person in the country, he is far from the only opinion that matters.
One-Understanding-33@reddit
But isn‘t his whole thing to replace them with loyalists to run the country like a company?
I think this will be the thing that his inner circle will work towards, he gets to play boss a little, go golfing and then his people will basically do project 2025.
pornographic_realism@reddit
Yes, during his last admin he left a lot of positions completely unfilled and only bothered filling things with loyalists.
berejser@reddit
For now.
Skyrmir@reddit
Trump is terrified of Putin. There's zero chance he won't fall in line the minute Putin tells him to.
nyan_eleven@reddit
and laughing at him about the energy was the correct thing. Relying on the US for several times the price is a bad deal with trivial ideological gains.
RydRychards@reddit
How does one country embarrass another? Not trying to pick a fight, I just can't imagine it.
The only time I saw a German politician embarrassed was then they were told they couldn't (temporarily) cut into children's genitals.
Musikcookie@reddit
I‘m feeling super good about saying ”You know, he‘s wrong 99% of the time, but he‘s right about Nato defense spending“ back when it wasn‘t cool. It‘s good to be able to see when someone is right even when you despise them.
WhitishRogue@reddit
Yeah I've come to realize military spending isn't something you want to be too cheap on. A smooth 2% every year could've kept Russia back. Now we are all panicking and spending 4% in a rush.
I'll admit military spending provides nothing beyond security. $100,000 for a bomb or farming equipment?
Darkfrostfall69@reddit
That 100k could stop the proverbial theft of the equipment you currently have
Musikcookie@reddit
Honestly, back then I believed it was merely for diplomatic reasons. Because you can‘t expect other countries to do your part of military spending for free for you and expect them to be all happy about it.
But these days it might simply be necessary to win the wars coming.
berejser@reddit
The problem is that he's not right, he's just using it as a stick to beat NATO with. Even if everyone got their defence spending to 3% all Trump would do is find a different stick.
Musikcookie@reddit
He‘s right and the content of the statement is not reversed by its purpose. He could also say that Nato members need to keep in like with the 2% because it‘s his favorite number and he‘d still be right about the 2%.
I‘d never would go so far to assume a solid reasoning process behind Trumps statements until proven otherwise if that‘s what bothers you though.
Instant_noodlesss@reddit
He is not mentally that well anymore. Is he going to be able to make decisions even when informed?
atreides------@reddit
Dude, you have not been paying attention.
hrafnulfr@reddit
Just as in the beginning of WWII, We're on our own from now on.
berejser@reddit
I really do home that Europe finds its feet and get out from underneath America's yoke. They keep demonstrating that they don't deserve the title "leader of the free world" when before too long they'll be neither leading nor particularly free.
stewmberto@reddit
What an incredibly optimistic take.
skunimatrix@reddit
Ukraine worked the democrats to impeach him the first time. That decision likely just lost them this war.
WhitishRogue@reddit
Oh yeah forgot about that. It'll have an effect, but I doubt it will change the final decision.
You gotta admit Hunter Biden having a high ranking job in a Ukrainian energy company is about as cliche as it gets. The dude doesn't have the skill sets for energy, management, or finance. He also can't say a single word in the native language.
Darkling5499@reddit
Don't forget Biden being literally on video bragging that he got a Ukrainian prosecutor fired that was trying to investigate Hunter.
Luis_r9945@reddit
I mean, Trump was rightfully impeached for that.
It's not like Ukraine impeached Trump, he did it to himself
skunimatrix@reddit
Doesn’t matter right or wrong: Ukraine picked the losing side in that one and it will cost them the war.
n05h@reddit
Correction, Trump picked Putin. Ukraine didn't pick shit. What the mental gymnastics is this?
Luis_r9945@reddit
They didnt pick shit.
The US investigated it, why would Ukraine block the US?
Icy-Cry340@reddit
The resolution in Ukraine will only go one way anyhow. The important part is keeping that war going as long as possible.
CatStacheFever@reddit
I would love to see the looks on trump and the GoPs faces when he actually withdraws from NATO and all of our overseas military bases are immediately banned. Our strength is less about our size (in numbers) and technology or equipment...but is instead from our presence around the world. We have been allowed to have military bases in dozens and dozens of countries, which allows us to have staging operations and quick reaction forces around the world. Once we lose our ability to stage troops easily around the world our military might becomes worthless. We have all this equipment but no airstrips to fly it to, no ports to ship to.
Having the most powerful military in the world means nothing when you are separated by two oceans and have no mobility to get your troops where you want them to be
Puzzleheaded_Loss770@reddit
This was pretty much the downfall of the British empire as the global power and all those that came before. Holding and maintaining overseas territories is very expensive. America found a cheaper way to do so by simply having military bases.
It's interesting to look back at how long single countries dominated the globe or large portions of it. The pattern I see is that as time goes on the country holding the power has a quicker and quicker path to decline due to rising costs and a home population that doesn't see any benefits and with new technology and communications it just escalates
Who's the next to step up to the plate? And how long will they last?
stonkmarxist@reddit
I recall a lot of this talk last time Trump was in office and unfortunately the EU didn't move far enough or fast enough away from the US. Now we have this same issue again.
The EU should recognise by now that the US is not a reliable ally and should move to decouple itself from the US, especially militarily, as fast as possible so that when the US thrashes about like this we are unaffected.
Hopefully this second boot up the hole is what is needed to finally get our own house in order.
Listen_Up_Children@reddit
I agree, but the Irish should start with Ireland and not be pointing the finger at Europe. Ireland provides no support to Ukraine, is not in Nato, and has a public policy of announcing neutrality even in the face of an attack on Europe. It spends 0.2% of its GDP on military, fully embracing dependence on others while also fully offering nothing to others.
stonkmarxist@reddit
It's militarily neutral, not politically.
Ireland does provide plenty of support to Ukraine, just not weaponry. You're extremely misinformed.
Ireland will never join NATO nor does it have to.
Ireland does need to spend more militarily.
It's funny hearing an American say it offers nothing despite the US making well documented military use of our airports. We should stop that though.
Listen_Up_Children@reddit
Your own comment specified that the primary focus of European self-sufficiency was military self-sufficiency. Ireland refuses to contribute to European defense, including providing any military aid to europeans under attack. To make the claim while supporting the Irish position is both ironic and disingenuous.
No, Ireland does NOT do "plenty" for Ukraine. As a percent of GDP, Irish assistance is near zero. I think the actual statistic is like 0.03%. That's nearly willing to lift a finger. If all Ireland has to offer is use of airports, you can keep it.
stonkmarxist@reddit
You seem to be confused by the geography and organisations at play here.
I said the primary focus of the EU aka the European Union should be to decouple itself from the US. Ukraine is Europe but it is not in the EU.
We do not have a mutual defense clause with Europe in general, only the EU, thus Ireland's constitutional neutrality clause comes into play regarding Ukraine. So even if we had the weapons to send them our constitution would not allow it.
Again, you're showing your ignorance of the realities here in Europe. Ireland's GDP is hugely inflated so aid as a percentage of GDP is not a valid indicator. If you want to use that indicator USA itself is waaaay down that list at 0.3%.
You're also ignoring the fact that Ireland has taken in the most Ukrainian refugees per capita at a time when we are experience a massive housing crisis.
Trust me, we would be very happy if the yanks never brought another soldier or weapon through our airports on the way to commit some more war crimes.
pm-me-nothing-okay@reddit
I think america wants EU to be as self sufficient as the EU wants to be self sufficient. I genuinely dont care about the supposed pros of america subsidizing EU defense network.
Mordeth@reddit
LOL no. America wants the EU to keep buying their military hardware from the USA. Like the petro dollar, this keeps money flowing into the USA and propping up entire American manufacturing chains. Like good little vassal states. That's what all the hubbub about "2%" is all about: send more money overseas.
EU cannot be dependant on American hardware anymore. What if we needed to buy more ammo stocks to defend against an russian incursion and america's cuck governmnet decides they like the russians more and just refuses to sell?
Listen_Up_Children@reddit
You have it backward. The reason Europe spends money buying American weapons is not because America demands it. Its because Europe spent so little of its own money that European defense industrial base has withered and is unable to produce the weapons that Europe needs to purchase.
pm-me-nothing-okay@reddit
americans*
GalacticMe99@reddit
I just hope that in 2016 our politicians thought "Well this is interesting. No way Americans would be stupid enough to do this twice, right?"
And this is the wake up call that Americans are, in fact, stupid enough to elect people like Trump on a regular basis from then on until propably somewhere far into the future and they act on it
My hopes and expectation lay far apart, however...
Gomeria@reddit
Both were bad choices.
one was a cultist and the other one spent the last year just saying im not him! On tv.
The reps won because the dems were inexistent. Clasical political party which its main feature is just being there, just being the oposition
LazyGandalf@reddit
That should really have been enough. Any bland politician should be preferable to the disaster that is Trump.
freeman2949583@reddit
I’m sorry don’t you mean a genocide supporter?
American liberals are simply unable to not blow their load and convince people that the choices aren’t Hitler A and Hitler B.
GalacticMe99@reddit
Preferable? Absolutely. Worthy an American's vote? Appearently not enough.
Gomeria@reddit
Not really, they were already doing a negible job and the nomine wasnt even liked on the dems.
If it werent for the BLM And the disastrous pandemic run from trump he wouldnt have even lost on 2020.
I mean, donald trump is the most dumb npc politician that you could find but you need someone with character agaisnt that, hell im sure obama's wife would have gathered more votes than kamala
Ropetrick6@reddit
Between the choice of a woman of color, or a rapist felon with ties to Russia, my countrymen apparently prefer Putin over minorities.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
I'm sure you'd like that to be the reason.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Well, thank you for making it clear that you voted for the rapist.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
I voted for a guy called chase Oliver if you must know. And I voted democrat for ohio's senator since I think he did a fine job. . But if this helps you feel better feel free to keep doing it . Honestly I'm somewhat desensitized to the left's strategy of name calling.
At the end of the day trump flipped blue states like Michigan, every swing state went for him and he won the popular vote.
The entire country roundly and decisively rejected the Democrats' rhetoric and non platform. You apparently still think being a dick to everyone on Reddit that disagrees and getting some fake echo chamber karma points is the same as having a popular platform.
berejser@reddit
How does any of that mean that Trump is going to be a good leader that delivers positive outcomes for people? Just because the other guy backed the candidate who lost doesn't mean that what he's saying about Trump is factually incorrect. Elections don't determine facts, they only gauge opinions.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
Lol. He won't be s good leader. It's just that every place in the country rejected what the Democrats are selling. If that many people who know who trump is still rejected then it's time for some real soul searching. How bad must your messaging and platform and ideas be to fail this hard?
berejser@reddit
Messaging? Sure. Platform? Not necessarily.
Like I said, elections don't determine facts, they only gauge opinions. And the facts are that people's lives are going to get worse under Trump, both worse than they are now and worse than they could have been under Harris.
DefinitelyNotMeee@reddit
You seem to be able to see into the future, would you mind sharing lottery numbers for next few weeks?
berejser@reddit
You don't need a crystal ball. You just need to listen to the things he said he would do, and look at the things he did during his last four years in office. It's really not that complicated.
DefinitelyNotMeee@reddit
What kind of horrible things he did? From what I remember, he was pretty normal president.
berejser@reddit
How many US presidents have been convicted of felonies? The first thing he's going to do when he takes office is appoint a compliant Attorney General who will immediately drop the pending federal cases against him, they won't even try to hide the corruption. Do you really think that is normal?
ogcornweapon@reddit
That is sketchy but doesn’t affect the lives of Americans. And what a politician says they will do really has little bearing on what will actually happen- what would the likelihood be that Kamala Harris’s “Opportunity Economy” and helping small businesses would actually work out? I don’t like Trump, but people are really catastrophizing reality.
Ropetrick6@reddit
How is it "being a dick to everyone" to point out the fact that Trump was found guilty of rape in a court of law? Last time I checked, lying to cover your own ass is more of "being a dick to everyone", but that's just the factual viewing on the matter, and MAGA supporters seem to be more attracted to "alternative facts" nowadays.
CupaSoup87@reddit
No Nazi likes to be called a Nazi apparently, it still makes them a Nazi though
DefinitelyNotMeee@reddit
"Everyone who is not a leftist lunatic is literally Nazi"
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
Well good luck with that. Maybe it will work better for you next time around.
ElvenNeko@reddit
Or maybe race and gender has nothing to do with it, and it's because they are both corporate tools. Ask why Bernie is never elected - he would beat Trump in the blink of an eye, but... corporates will never allow a person who want to act in favor of the people to run for the president.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Or maybe the party that includes the Proud Boys, KKK, and Project 2025 DOES hate minorities...
subliminallist@reddit
That’s not why she lost lol
Ropetrick6@reddit
Considering the fac that Project 2025 is explicitly trying to repeal the Respect for Marriage Act, the law that legalizes and protects interracial marriage, I'm pretty sure that her status as a woman of color has something to do with it.
teremaster@reddit
Project 2025? The thing written and endorsed by Trump's old cabinet? His old cabinet who endorsed kamala?
Ropetrick6@reddit
The thing written by and supported by Trump's current cabinet, FTFY!
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
"Democracy is the theory that the common man knows what he wants and that Europeans deserve to get it good and hard."
Ropetrick6@reddit
Oh, it's you again. Considering how much offense you took to me answering somebody's question about Israel with the Nakba, I'd have expected you to be in open celebration about the man who tried letting Bibi annex the West Bank having won the presidency.
I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
Lol oh no here comes another long tantrum.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You DO realize you have the choice not to start whining about nothing, right? I just want to make sure you're aware that option exists, before you proceed to ignore it completely because somebody had the gall to acknowledge the existence of the Nakba.
Or you can show that you've grown as a person, but that'd be a rather surprising outcome given your behavior.
Mavian23@reddit
You just randomly accosted someone apparently from a prior Reddit comment, and you're accusing them of starting to whine?
Ropetrick6@reddit
So bringing up a person's previous acts towards you is "accosting" them according to you?
I remember back when words had meaning...
Mavian23@reddit
From Merriam-Webster:
Accost: to approach and speak to (someone) in an often challenging or aggressive way
Synonyms: confront, approach, affront
You accosted him.
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
😂
Ropetrick6@reddit
I'll take that as a no.
bjran8888@reddit
And then what? The EU found itself at war with Russia and initiated a trade war with China.
“Politics is about making more friends and fewer enemies”, who are Europe's friends now?
stonkmarxist@reddit
The EU is not at war with Russia any more than the US is.
I also don't recall any EU trade war with China, that was the US. The latest political wrangling regarding tariffs isn't what I would call a war, just typical trade.
That said, I see no issue in maintaining friendly relations with China. Russia is another story based on Ukraine however. What I don't support is being over reliant on another country, especially not for defense and certainly not one as unstable as the US.
bjran8888@reddit
On a side note, are you indeed a Marxist?
As for the trade war ......
https://www.politico.eu/article/donald-trump-europe-trade-war-united-states-china-tariffs/
stonkmarxist@reddit
I haven't read nearly enough theory to call myself a Marxist. I just thought the name stonkmarxist was amusing. I am fairly socialist though.
That's a bit of hyperbole on behalf of politico I would say. That relates to the tariffs I mentioned which specifically target Chinese EVs. There is no wider trade war and I don't expect it to escalate into one.
It's also not something I personally agree with and is anti-consumer, protectionist and not something we want to be doing while trying to increase EV uptake within the wider population to meet climate targets.
bjran8888@reddit
Truth be told, the rational thing for the EU to do would clearly be to put this behavior into the aftermath of the U.S. election results, and Von der Leyen's sucking up to the Democrats puts the EU in a dilemma.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
That's the whole point of NATO though, without the US then NATO is pointless.
stonkmarxist@reddit
I'm not saying the EU should cease all relations or cooperation with the US. We should seek to be far less reliant on it.
Europe should be stronger and far less subject to whatever dumbassery the US gets up to on any given day.
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Europe doesn't want to as it's too comfortable having the US pay for the umbrella of protection. The EU has no appetite for having an independent geopolitical policy and having to pay for it.
BorodinoWin@reddit
“decouple” 😂 This implies that the EU actually participates in the relationship and doesn’t just suck money from American pockets.
lmfao
Darkling5499@reddit
Seriously. For decades now the US has had to deal with basically all of Europe going "America is evil stop being the world police stop imposing your military will on everyone" and then the US has signs they're going to stop and Europeans are going "wait what why are you stopping????"
SardaukarSS@reddit
As an asian, Europeans are whiny little hypocrite shits who will blame everyone but themselves for their shortcomings.
glymao@reddit
Honestly in hindsight, NATO countries missed the mark when Russia invaded Ukraine by immediately also denouncing every other country who didn't condemn Russia for economic reasons. This killed rapprochement with China and India in case the US ceases to be a reliable ally, which is exactly what's happening now.
The EU part of NATO needs to stop copy pasting US foreign policy talkpoints. China for example is not nearly as militarily adversarial to Europe as it is to the US.
enilea@reddit
India and China also wouldn't be reliable allies. Even several countries in the EU aren't reliable allies to itself.
glymao@reddit
They wouldn't be allies since the range of diplomacy is broader than just allies-enemies. Feel like people have been forgetting this part...
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
They wouldn't be reliable allies because China, for one, has a completely different geopolitical agenda that very rarely aligns with Europe's. It's naive is China has real alignment with European interests
glymao@reddit
Yeah the point being EU has been on a moral high horse over China and India even though neither countries really care about the EU.
The EU has been copying US foreign policies to a T and that is currently backfiring, since they can't afford to make more enemies.
And to think about it, when was the last time that Europe had to put in actual diplomacy work? I feel like the reductive "if you are not an ally, you are an enemy" has become a self fulfilling prophecy for the non-US NATO countries.
Wolfensniper@reddit
I mean both countries has no quarrel with EU except ideology, and France had been in good terms with China in 90s
ControlledShutdown@reddit
Maybe it's best to stop hoping for a reliable ally, and have multiple good enough allies as backup for each other.
One-Understanding-33@reddit
I‘d blame that on Obama and the economic entanglement we had with russia did the rest so we looked away.
Bacontoad@reddit
I think you're conflating the EU and NATO.
PTMorte@reddit
The EU has a binding mutual defence pact that compels members to defend each other and NATO is the infrastructure body through which forces are combined and deployed.
Bacontoad@reddit
Not all EU members are NATO members. Nor are all NATO members EU members.
PTMorte@reddit
Sure but my point is that the EU defence clause is what will actually trigger states coming to each other's aid. Not NATO article 9.
maddoxprops@reddit
Man, as an American that hurts to read, but I can't disagree with it.
Cloudboy9001@reddit
If Trump is serious about his universal tariff plan, it would push Europe and China closer economically.
Days_End@reddit
The issue is the EU in general seems to have no appetite to do this. They just keep failing further and further behind. It certainly doesn't help they've had by far the worst post covid recovery of all the major powers.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
As long as Europe caves in immediately to his demands(moving money out of social welfare programs and into their military budget) gives him a huge win then the US will stay in NATO.
This will not happen and Europe will blame America even though the writing was on the wall, Europe needs to re arm.
icelandicvader@reddit
Europe does not need to rearm and it shouldnt. Putin poses a threat to some of his neighbours, but he poses no serious threat to any NATO or EU member.
Mordeth@reddit
That is such bullshit, again. USA pays MORE for healthcare. Switching to europe-style public health will SAVE you money. It's just that all this money is funneled into the private pockets of industry giants and just a trickle goes to actual patients.
And you also work on the assumption that if the USA 'saves money' on 'defense' (which never happened, budget always increases) that this money gets funneled into american social welfare programs. Since when does your government care about that?
Leatherfacet@reddit
Alot of people fail to understand how entwined the world's nation really are. Let's say hypothetically that Germany and France would be invaded by Russia and reduced to nothing. That would never happen but let's pretend.
That would throw the US and many other countries into economic oblivion. The US cannot exists in its current state without other large countries, the Atlantic ocean means nothing in 2024.
bjran8888@reddit
Europe will now have to face the US, Russia and China as colleagues. The funniest thing is that the trade war with China was even initiated by Europe.
berejser@reddit
Do-able. Russia is a non-entity at this point, they can't even defeat the 2nd poorest nation in Europe alone. China is a continent away and it's influence within Europe is waning. And the US, while no longer a dependable ally, is not openly hostile to Europe.
When taken together, Europe has the population, natural resources, economy, manufacturing capacity, etc. to go toe-to-toe with every other global power, the US included. The only thing they lack are the centralised structures and institutions to properly coordinate a common defence policy. I imagine there is now appetite to do something about that.
bjran8888@reddit
“The only thing they lack is a centralized structure and agency to properly coordinate a common defense policy.”
Don't you yourself know exactly what the problem is?
The EU is, in the end, just a union, not a country.
berejser@reddit
I don't think federalisation is a prerequisite to having a common defence policy.
bjran8888@reddit
It looks like the EU should have convinced Orban first. It is interesting to note that he may well be the most effective channel of communication between the EU and the US for the next four years.
berejser@reddit
The EU should have expelled him but we are where we are.
bjran8888@reddit
Laughing, he's now the face of Trump in Europe, and Le Pen in Germany, Meloni in Italy, and Weidel in Germany have endorsed him.
Without Orban, the EU will be even more embarrassed when it comes to the US. I guess Trump hasn't forgotten how the EU liberals hit Trump 4 years ago when he wasn't out of office.
berejser@reddit
That's not a good thing for him. Trump is incredibly unpopular in Europe, and so is Orban outside of Hungary.
I look forward to any data showing that the EU will be "embarassed when it comes to the US". Anything at all.
This all just sounds like the sort of nationalist anti-western rhethoric we've come to expect from Trump and the far-right.
Assuming he has Trump's ear, that doesn't make him powerful in Europe. Particularly when he has no influence among the other leaders in Europe who all think he is a wannabe dictator.
bjran8888@reddit
“This all just sounds like the sort of nationalist anti-western rhethoric we've come to expect from Trump and the far-right.”
You can read the headline, and it's not even me saying this, it's your own media (Deutsche Welle) which is even funded by the German government.
berejser@reddit
The headline doesn't say "the EU will be even more embarrassed when it comes to the US". Those are your words.
bjran8888@reddit
The fact that DW asked the question itself says it all. If the Democrats had won, there wouldn't have been this headline at all.
berejser@reddit
No, you're the one saying it.
Yes, because the US would still be a dependable global partner. Which suggests that, far from the EU being embarrassed, it is the US who has so thoroughly embarrassed themselves that those around then are no longer wanting to associate with them.
bjran8888@reddit
That's for the US and US allies. Third world countries have been telling you that you would do this for a long time, and you insist on obeying the Democrats.
Who can blame you for that?
berejser@reddit
"obeying"
Dude don't make me laugh. If Europe were really the passive tag-along you want to paint them to be they they would insist on obeying Trump. This is because, unlike the Democrats, Trumps values do not align with European values.
Nobody is obeying anyone if both sides are in agreement, at that point it's just a partnership.
bjran8888@reddit
" If Europe were really the passive tag-along with you wanting to paint them to be they they would insist on obeying Trump for the next four years. "
You're really right about that. Europe has only two choices, be Trump's follower or join with China to counterbalance the US.
It's up to Europe to choose.
berejser@reddit
Why would Europe join with China? China are ideologically aligned with Putin. China did to Hong Kong what Putin wants to do to Ukraine. China wants to do to Taiwan what Putin is doing to Ukraine.
China's values are closer to Trump's values than Europe's values, why would Europe buddy up with dictators if their problem with Trump is that he is too similar to a dictator? Even Orban and Meloni side with Ukraine, that should tell you it's a non-starter.
Europe, when taken as a whole, is more than powerful enough to counterbalance both the US and China. They don't need to be the junior partner in any relationship, they can choose to stand on their own if they're prepared to spend some time looking inwards.
bjran8888@reddit
"Europe, when taken as a whole, is more than powerful enough to counterbalance both the US and China." OK, good luck with that.
berejser@reddit
It's worked well for us so far. We're still able to freely say that Taiwan is a country and Trump is an rapist, so we've clearly got enough strength to defend our freedoms.
bjran8888@reddit
You're so entangled. Think what you want, it doesn't matter.
NamelessWL@reddit
They really didn't have much of a choice. Germany particularly would have been hammered by cheap EVs entering their market and completely displacing their manufacturers. Then what? It's not like the German economy is growing, they had to do something in order to prevent taking a significant hit in a sector that employs like 7% of their country.
bjran8888@reddit
Germany is totally opposed to the bill, including Schulz and German auto companies.
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
LMAO, source needed.
bjran8888@reddit
The German Chancellor and all German automotive companies are against it, what are her reasons for supporting the bill?
BurialA12@reddit
What can be, Europe finally is unburden by what has been
bjran8888@reddit
They haven't begun to suffer the consequences of this ...... Now they're just beginning to have to.
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit
and Israel too
ParagonRenegade@reddit
If Trump distances the USA from NATO then the only feasible path forwards for any kind of "United Europe" will be a proper European armed force. But of course, his victory all but assures the far right will gain everywhere in Europe, directly undermining the Federalist project in favour of extreme nationalism. On top of that, a more unified Europe would also make it more independent and push it towards its own agenda as opposed to one aligned with the USA.
As a socialist I despise NATO and wish for nothing but its destruction, so I find it hilarious, but if you're a liberal start busting your ass to turn the tide or you're fucked.
spudmarsupial@reddit
There is nothing socialist about Russia or China.
mormassoqueima@reddit
about China there are many things
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
China is in fact so socialist, that it was praised by the Christchurch shooter.
mormassoqueima@reddit
because he is the go to guy for geopolitical analysis after all
freeman2949583@reddit
China’s great. Less Muslims and fat women.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Never said there was.
spudmarsupial@reddit
Then why would you being a socialist make you despise NATO?
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Because NATO is the alliance of the liberal capitalist nations that form the greatest obstacle to a socialist society, most notably the USA. The bulk of the world's historic powers all being aligned in one right wing bloc is extremely detrimental to what I want.
booOfBorg@reddit
As a socialist I say the abject failure of the European left has absolutely nothing to do with NATO. It has everything to do with first flirting with Bolshevism and then embracing capitalist control of every sphere of life.
spudmarsupial@reddit
I still get tripped up by "liberal" meaning both right wing and left wing depending on who you are talking about.
Governments and organizations like power and control so they will always lean right, unless forced to pretend otherwise.
Constitutional monarchy seems to hold the line against authoritarianism the best, communism is weakest against takeover since it has no inbuilt checks and balances to prevent it.
NATO is military in nature and so will always be authoritarian, which is why it is intended to be controlled by civilian governments.
10000Lols@reddit
Lol
ScaryShadowx@reddit
Look up the most democratic countries in the world. The US and it's 'freedoms' is ranked as a flawed democracy while the constitutional monarchies are at the top.
10000Lols@reddit
Lol
cutwordlines@reddit
99999 lols remaining
10000Lols@reddit
Lol
VgamaN@reddit
Lmao even
zapporian@reddit
...so you're a socialist canadian pissed off that the US et al are standing in the way of and outright oppressing the ability for us all to move towards utopian communism.
LMAO.
Go watch Perun's video on the present state of the canadian military. And canada's present/future demographics et al.
Without the US and its nuclear shield, Russia and/or China will just outright invade you, and seize all of your natural resources, territory, and/or north passage arctic trade route (and general territorial integrity) that'll be opened up with climate change et al.
And I'm not even kidding here: there are probably individual chinese military brigades that have more combat power / firepower (and amphib capabilities) than the entire canadian military / ground forces at this point. Ditto your air force et al.
Europe has self defense problems, but Canada is that on crack.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Nobody is invading Canada this century except the USA.
QuantumUtility@reddit
The US loves to inflate its responsibility and relevance in the geopolitical space.
The world would be a lot safer if it stopped playing world police instead.
PTMorte@reddit
Not to mention the 120,000 or whatever foreign soldiers on European soil.
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
As a socialist, you should know that the destruction of NATO brings you closer to live under a Russian-like fascistic autocratic regime than to a “European People’s Federation”
ParagonRenegade@reddit
No it doesn't. The world has never been closer to falling to fascism than under the auspices of NATO.
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
You truly think that NATO, as a loose collective, is more fascistic than Putin’s Russia?
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Who said that?
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
Let me rephrase my question: do you think that NATO collapsing makes a wave of fascistic regimes across of Europe, with the auspices of the Kremlin, less likely?
ParagonRenegade@reddit
NATO collapsing will open the space for many things to happen. Don’t let the immediate future (the far right surge) blind you to opportunities elsewhere. Good things can be built in its place.
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
Accelerationism might be the most stupid thought ever thought.
If NATO collapses, and Russia, the US and Europe turn fascist and get in the same boat, the only thing you and your internet comrades are going to get is the Democratic People’s Mass Grave.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
That’s not accelerationism.
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
That is exactly accelerationism.
You think that the chaos and suffering that a defeated NATO by Russia would create the opportunity for your imaginary communist revolution to happen.
Paradox Interactive games have ruined some people’s mind.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
No it isn’t, you don’t know what that is. A counterrevolutionary force like NATO being dismantled is a straightforwards political objective that isn’t necessarily destructive in the way you are implying.
NATO won’t be defeated by Russia. Russia is not powerful enough, nor is China. Which is the point. When nobody is powerful enough to unilaterally crush a socialist movement either directly or by coercion, it allows them to move forwards.
secretPT90@reddit
With this wil the US stop being the world police?
Maybe. Their narcissist atittude and selfish actions have been getting bigger through the years, so they will leave many situations on order to keep the narritive of center of the world.
Europe is not dependent on US as many think. We have our owns agreements with other external countries and peace measurements to deal with problems.
The Ukraine has kept going thanks to the USA funding, the Europe it's more worried about the ucranian people that might migrate into Europe and worsen the migration crisis.
So the solution in Ukraine by Europe it's peace, in order to avoids dislocations of people and institutions.
The other problem it's the Middle East (Palestine & Yemen) where the US took an agressive action but now may backup and leave the other nations to deal the peace, it will be hard for european diplomacy to clean this. Also there's problems due to Yemen pirates in fhe Red Sea, creatings shortages in naval transport to Europe.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
You will miss them when they are gone, even over there in Portugal.
azurestrike@reddit
Will they be gone though? I doubt they'll suddenly not spend a trillion dollars a year on their military.
What will that go towards? There's only so much money that they can burn on shitty Lockheed / Boeing prototypes.
freeman2949583@reddit
South Korea
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
Well the world stage is much bigger and grander than the European stage. I think if the Yemeni pirates or any other groups disrupt natural gas or oil shipments then the US would be more than happy to provide Europe energy for a good price. But other than that trump will put America on a path of refocusing on Asia where things are really important.
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
Oh we'll still spend the money.
It'll just all be for show.
secretPT90@reddit
Who's gone? The Americans?
ev_forklift@reddit
Don't come crying to us next time you Europeans have a crisis then
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
Everyone hates the unipolar/bipolar world under hegemony until they experience the chaos when the world is without hegemony.
AndyReidsStache@reddit
As someone from the US I hope you don’t but man you might be about to find out that a post US policed EU is gonna look a wholllleeee lot different
toxicunderGroov@reddit
Pre US policed we started 2 World War's and patented just about any form of violence. Current times are pretty peaceful overall, pity the world when Europe awakens does it's fascist thing again.
secretPT90@reddit
It will look like hell, a fresh example is Afghanistan.
From an over militarized zone to a lawless place, that's why many nations now look for others helps (in extreme case like Russia or China)
MediocreOw@reddit
Yes Europe is on its own. Anyone who tells you otherwise has short term memory. Does everyone forget why Trump was impeached? Does quid pro quo not ring any bells? Trump wanting to back out of NATO? Had Trump won in 2020 Russia would have ran through Ukraine in a month. Now Russia gets a redo.
pheret87@reddit
Europe is like 44 countries. How can 44 countries be on their own?
freeman2949583@reddit
Because it’s like a half dozen largely stable but stagnant welfare states and then a bunch of places in slow-motion collapse.
MediocreOw@reddit
Guess we'll find out soon, won't we
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I think it’s you that has short term memory here. Trump on NATO is a very well-known and obvious position. He doesn’t like how much America has to pay for it, and wanted/wants other member nations to pay a greater portion of the costs. Actually pulling out of NATO is a mostly empty threat, and if he would ever consider it, that’s as a last resort, because his goal instead is to just force other countries to pay more.
Though his base could definitely be convinced that pulling completely out of NATO isn’t insane. It definitely wouldn’t be an achievement, in general reception.
Mordeth@reddit
NATO does not send out bills. NATO is not a company. Droning middle-eastern weddings counts as 'nato spending' for the USA; dealing with the giant waves of refugees caused by american initiated / supported wars does not for Europe.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Okay, why does everyone keep saying stuff like that? Obviously, you’re right, but it’s completely irrelevant.
What I have been discussing above is not my position. It is Donald Trump’s. And I am trying to explain what he believes in order to predict his behavior. That does not mean that these things are good or I agree with any of it.
Hlallu@reddit
This is the somewhat reasonable take that I'm hopeful for. Currently trying to trust that Trump's words and 'persona' are just that, words, and he actually knows better than to do what he has been claiming. It might be true. Although his last presidency showed a lot of behavior that doesn't make me confident in his political maneuvering.
Definitely nervous by how much he talks about pulling out of NATO, pulling funding from western allies in Europe, and redirecting as much aid as possible to Israel's ongoing war... but here's hoping those are all just claims/soundbites and he knows better than to actually do any of it.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I mean, I don’t see this as hopeful, really. I guess I am hopeful that he doesn’t do a lot of things, but in this particular case, it’s pretty unlikely America does anything like leave NATO. This is just what his open opinion on the subject is, often repeated.
Some barely intelligible variation of: “NATO. Let me tell you about NATO. I love NATO, I do. But Germany, England, France, they don’t love NATO like I do. They won’t support it. There’s no support. It’s just us, holding up all the world without any support. All those other countries, they’re ripping us off, trying to play us for fools, they are. It’s the worst deal in the history of deals. I would know. So we’re going to tell them, I’ll tell you, we’ll tell them they need to pay up. We’re paying too much. Way too much. Sky high. It’s robbery. And if they won’t pay, then we’ll leave, and we’ll see how they like that, NATO.”
It’s a threat if they don’t bow down and make him look good. Which, you know, is bad. Maybe a controversial take.
But it isn’t his goal to leave NATO, it would be a last resort if he can’t get his way. One he might or might not be willing to take if the rest of the world calls his bluff. Not sure on that.
yungsmerf@reddit
NATO doesn't have costs that the U.S. disproportionately covers, though. The defense spending agreement only specifies what percentage of their GDP each member should contribute to their national security, which the U.S. doesn't provide if the percentage is not met by said member.
There is also the annual $4 billion in operational costs, of which the U.S. contributes about 15%, the same as Germany, for example.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I’m not saying he’s right. I’m saying that’s his position, and what he wants to happen as a consequence. Which is very different from pulling out of NATO completely.
thatthatguy@reddit
Hypothetically there might not have been an open shooting war between Russia and Ukraine because without US support they would never have had the courage to stand up to Russia in the first place. They would have rolled over and let Russia take whatever Putin wanted with only token resistance. Or, as that side of the spectrum would call it, no need for a war.
So remember kids, when you are being bullied and beaten up, whatever you do, don’t fight back or defend yourself in any way. Doing so only means they have to hurt you even worse. Ladies, this means you too. Lay there and take it, maybe cooperate a little, so your attacker doesn’t have to hurt you worse.
I feel like I’m going to throw up…
MediocreOw@reddit
Even worse, when they see how easy it is, they'll do it to others. Do not be surprised if Russia blitzes through eastern europe to try and rebuild the USSR which Putin has said he wants to do
Pentinium@reddit
Surely nato is enough for him not to do it. Surelyyy
Idontknowofname@reddit
And it will also cause a nuclear war
Fastenbauer@reddit
Ukraine has been fighting Russians (not just separatists but actual Russians) inside of Ukraine since 2014. So it's a save bet to assume that they would have resisted with everything they had.
zapporian@reddit
Yes, this. And they did resist in the first place thanks to contingency (or rather, inevitability) planning by Zaluzhny et al. Without the US, and hell without the direct involvement and knowledge of the Ukrainian president for that matter.
Ergo why Ukraine not immediately falling over when / after Russia invaded came as much of a surprise as it did to the US. And why we were providing javelin + stinger shipments in anticipation of an insurgency after the ukrainian military had largely been destroyed. Not that they would keep key capabilities (air defense, artillery, armored + mech units) intact. And keep fighting with all of those things until those were inevitably / eventually attritted into oblivion.
Ikswoslaw_Walsowski@reddit
Everyone's got a short term memory
amanset@reddit
Honestly? I don’t care. In fact it may be for the best. The US works really only in its own interests and a strong Europe, mainly speaking of the EU, is necessary to counter the idiocy of both the US and Russia.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
But not Chinas because they’re such good fellas
DeepState_Secretary@reddit
Who cares about China honestly.
Let China waste blood and money on empire. Not like it’s done us any good.
BujuArena@reddit
China's become extremely prosperous. It would be folly to ignore what they've done there, especially in the past 14 years since they passed a law limiting domestic real estate hoarding.
bagodonuts6432@reddit
that’s just not true , the Chinese economy tanked after Covid and has not yet recovered. That is what kept inflation on oil from exploding.
booOfBorg@reddit
Doubt.
And yet they don't let their currency be traded. And their economy is in a downward spiral since Covid 19.
bagodonuts6432@reddit
Yes, you are on your own.
One of his promises was to end the war in the Ukraine immediately, but the reading between the lines here in the States, his meaning is ending financial support for the war. Trump in my opinion has little interest in foreign conflicts, and doesn’t speak highly of the US military and its involvement aboard, and seems to really hate paying aid to foreign nations.
Expect him to cut medical aid programs to Africa and other 3rd world countries immediately as well.
TruthyGrin@reddit
Always follow the money. Where does Trump stand to gain most? Europe usually has rules. That's a strike against them, but if someone waives a shiny object in front of Trump, maybe?
roy1979@reddit
EU was always on its own. US support doesn't come for free, they negotiate deals and if it doesn't work out support is stopped. That's not going to change even if Trump comes into power. The only thing that will change is he will arm-twist more and get better deals which he can brag about.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Only sane take here. The whole image Trump builds around himself is that businessman “Art of the Deal” aesthetic. He’s definitely going to be strong arming various allies in all sorts of ways, but pulling out of NATO is obviously an empty threat.
berejser@reddit
The problem with that image is that there's no substance behind it. In four years of governing he didn't deliver a single favourable deal for the US.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Right. Okay. But that’s irrelevant to his goals and purpose, which is what I’m talking about here. It might be a bad deal, but what he wants very obviously is to maintain this image and accrue a record of supposed wins for his base to be excited about. “Proof” at the wisdom of putting such a “skilled businessman” in control of the country.
Leaving NATO does not do that. What he wants, and almost certainly will get, is for European countries to spend more on defense.
berejser@reddit
What is a "good deal" to this people also involves walking away from a bad deal. Leaving NATO can absolutely achieve that aim of appearing to be a shrewd businessman so long as he sells it right. Because on the facts alone every other deal he's made achieves a similarly poor outcome for America that leaving NATO would, he's just managed to sell them to people as "wins".
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I mean I just wholly disagree. It’s obviously a much bigger victory to get some concession (which he almost certainly will, even if it’s likely insignificant) than drop out entirely. One is something he can swing to be not bad. The other will be immediately interpreted as proof positive of everything he and his supporters believe in somehow.
berejser@reddit
He won't get concessions. Last time he tried to strong-arm NATO he didn't get any concessions. Last time he tried to get a deal with China he came back with one that was wholly favourable to China and wholly detrimental to the US. He just doesn't do good deals, he doesn't know how.
squngy@reddit
Better deals for him personally, not better for the US.
roy1979@reddit
I have a neutral opinion about him. I think he tries but his party doesn't support him (they still him as an outsider) and ends up failing.
squngy@reddit
That might have been true for a while, but it has not been for a long time.
The Republicans are completely dependant on him at this point and are doing honestly an embarrassing level of brown-nosing to him.
Since the previous elections, republicans competed against each other based on who looked like they had more support from Trump, because that was who would get elected.
If Trump said he did not like a politician, that person became unelectable as a republican.
We also know from court findings that at least in the case of Ukraine negotiations, he did everything to get a deal that would help him personally, and nothing for anyone else.
roy1979@reddit
Now that he is in office, let's hope that he has learned from his past mistakes, that's all we can do.
ev_forklift@reddit
Yeah. No shit. The US doesn't need the Europeans to defend itself. We have two oceans that do that just fine.
The purpose of NATO, according to Lord Hastings Lionel Ismay, its first Secretary General, was to "Keep the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down"
kimana1651@reddit
The EU as a region is ... stable and powerful. Are we worried that they can't fend for themselves if they can't work out a deal with the US?
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
They don’t want to put guns in people’s hands because that would be really scary to Germany
pm-me-nothing-okay@reddit
Europe as a region, yes. The EU though? that is a political shit show for discussions like this. They cant even get together to agree on immigration policy much less a defense plan.
kimana1651@reddit
They don't need full membership agreement. Just the normal alliances to form and function like they have for the past 500 years.
perestroika12@reddit
EU is very divided culturally and politically. The US solved an important defense problem by just being the defense. As a united and unilateral nation it can act without having to negotiate with member states.
Imagine every US state having to hash out troop deployments instead of the US defense establishment just figuring it out.
kimana1651@reddit
If only the individual countries that make up the EU having a long history of alliance and war to support them.
Days_End@reddit
Yes, we are worried mostly because the EU as a region is anything but "stable and powerful". The last decade and more importantly the post covid recovery has really show they are way more dependent on the USA than anyone thought.
kimana1651@reddit
All lies on the back of the American atlas then? Maybe it's best to pull the bandaid now then before it gets worse.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
I still think trump will make them re arm to some degree even if they do concede in trade. American automakers are gonna be feasting.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Man that first message of Rutte just infuriates me. 'NATO has 31 countries ready to protect American interests.'
Can us Europeans FINALLY grow a spine and stop being the glorified vassal empire of the US?
master12211@reddit
Look, man, i agree with you, but polls and stuff amongst the young have consistently said that there is a low amount willing to defend their OWN country if attacked, never mind fellow NATO members.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Maybe because we've been forced into American proxy wars for decades.
booOfBorg@reddit
No, mainly because of increasing vulnerable narcissism in the cultural sphere. We are mentally fucked more than ever and it's rapidly getting worse.
mikelo22@reddit
Rutte is very smart though. He did this back in 2016 too. He knows that the best way to manipulate Trump is to appeal to his own ego.
SomnambulantDonkey@reddit
Now is the time. The US has become a liability. We should give them what they keep saying they want and start standing on our own two feet. I’m tired of seeing every western nation being a proxy for US corporate interests and being complicit in their shenanigans
matomika@reddit
yes we are, usa should not have the weight in strategic plans it had even after 2016. it was clear then, that europe cant count on americans. like wtf, are we pretending being stupid?
Rexam14@reddit
Europe was already on a precarious path even before Trump’s second victory. The first wake-up call should have come eight years ago with his initial election, along with numerous other signs, chief among them the rising influence of right-wing parties across Europe and the Ukraine war.
And in those eight years Europe did nothing.
This moment offers Europe yet another chance to rethink its future. I hope it seizes the opportunity to strengthen cooperation among its members, invest in a unified European defense force, and reduce dependence on external powers, such as Russia and the United States.
rattleandhum@reddit
expect ties with China and Africa to increase. It's become obvious that the US is not a reliable ally if things can swing so wildly every 4 years -- it offers no stability or continuity to long-standing agreements.
The US military presence, and NATO specifically, works entirely in the US's interests. If Trump wants to rip that up, be it upon his head (Not that NATO is without it's faults)
McDudeston@reddit
Yes.
I think they are. It seems that the US is not showing leadership anymore and can't be depended on. I don't see how the rest of us world can't see this as an abdication of the US previous status as leaders of the free world.
Yes. The EU is on its own and it's time for them to show some real leadership.
fourmi@reddit
Maybe Europe needs to think otherwise than just being the little bitch of the US. Perhaps it's time to consider standing on its own, making decisions independently, and defining a clear path forward without relying on transatlantic guidance.
Mordeth@reddit
It's not a geopolitical decision. It needs to decide to found and expand their own military manufacturing industry, including giant ammo stockpiles.
McDudeston@reddit
Yes.
Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler. Space filler.
anime_titties-ModTeam@reddit
Your comment has been removed because it violates Rule 3: Comments must be at least 150 characters long. Do not pad comments.
SunderedValley@reddit
The US involvement in Europe has been a net negative for Europe 9 out of 10 times not to mention the involvement in the middle east constantly leading to issues in Europe via refugee waves that caused internal divisions. The place is still trying to deal with the murder of Gaddafi for example and the political chaos that that has led to.
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
Yeah, but you'd think you might give the 2 times you needed to avoid the entire continent falling to fascists a little more weight than Libya.
Let's pretend that the European colonial projects in he Middle East had nothing to do with that instability because it's inconvenient. Is that about right?
zapporian@reddit
...you mean excluding WW2, WW1 (where we / wilson at the very least attempted to save you from yourselves), the post-war era where the US + USSR rebuilt and liberalized / communized all of destroyed europe, and the entire cold war where the US / NATO explicitely built up a ludicrously large standing military / apocalyptic military deterrence to prevent western europe from getting invaded + overrun by the USSR?
Don't forget that the present state and past 100 years of history of the middle east is very specifically the fault of France and the UK, and that the post-war US under Truman et al pivoted to supporting and backstopping UK and French foreign policy + colonial interests, not vice versa.
Israel / Palestine is also explicitly, 100% the UK's fault. And the French backed them for decades with arms sales et al, well before we did. And the suez crisis - which fucked US interests, mind - was due to a european (again French / British) proxy war between Israel + Egypt, over control of the suez canal.
Don't blame us for bullshit that y'all started. The middle east is your backyard, not ours.
apistograma@reddit
No, no. Some American who can discern Slovenia from Slovakia told me that we're so fortunate to have them and without them we'd be lost or something.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
What a wise and kind American to tell you the truth. Verified by a True American Patriot
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
Don’t forget the US stepped in and stopped a genocide in Europe because Europe couldn’t.
rhino369@reddit
Libya was a French and British adventure. America just finished what Europe started.
90Carat@reddit
As an American, first off, sorry. Many of my fellow citizens are lazy gits.
Trump, and his people, have been very anti-NATO, and very anti-Ukraine. I would expect US support of Ukraine to stop soon after Trump takes office, and Trump will try to pull out of NATO.
eightNote@reddit
The republicans when they have power become deeply divided against each other. The leadership of Congress and the senate will again be contentious, and in his previous admin, forced him to not drop pressure on Russia
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
No one knows yet what Trump will do. Frankly, if I was in Europe I would have jumped at what Macron has been saying about a domestic defense industry— this is THE moment to build that.
berejser@reddit
Apart from all of the things he said he would do, and the four years of stuff that he already did, I guess we have no way of knowing.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
I didn’t vote for Trump but that’s just the truth unless you want to admit your crystal ball
berejser@reddit
You don't need a crystal ball, you can make informed inferences based on the wealth of information we already have from 1) his policy platform, and 2) his performance during his first term.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Ok, if your argument here is that you can make informed inferences then we don’t disagree.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Ok, if your argument here is that you can make informed inferences then we don’t disagree.
viper5delta@reddit
I'd recommend, yall over in Europe start developing/expanding your own nuclear umbrella(s). I'd say my country has demonstrated adequately that it's to unstable and bipolar to be relied on for jack shit.
sweetno@reddit
Yes? I mean, he has a point. Why should the US care about a third-world country far-far away for which other people (in the EU) should care way more anyway. Let Europeans sort out their shit, esp. those insane German politicians.
berejser@reddit
The US is also far-far away from Europe, but I still care about all of the pregnant women who will now die as a result of Trump withdrawing their healthcare, and I care about all of the babies and young children who will die of measles, polio, and other easily preventable diseases once RFK takes away their vaccines. I care about these things because I am a human being and therefore capable of feeling empathy, even for people who are an ocean away.
dummary1234@reddit
That would hold more ground if it wasnt for the fact that NATO was the US' idea, and theyve been the biggest contributors to he alliance.
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
The US under Biden blew up Nord Stream 2... that, along with against-our-interests sanctions on Russia have crippled German industry... are we alone now...? You gotta hope so
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
This you?
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/HGQlV10eSn
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
✔️ Good points, witty vibe
✔️ Historically informed
✔️ Counter-cultural in a deeply sexy way
✔️ Same username
Yes this meets all criteria for a commentary of mine
xarsha_93@reddit
Yup, so informed. My friend’s dad who refused to let the police search his phone when they boarded the bus totally deserves to be locked away in a secret camp.
I’m sure you’re very well connected with the Venezuelan community and get all your information in Spanish from first-hand sources.
mormassoqueima@reddit
I am Brazilian, fluent in spanish as well and he is mostly spot on.
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
So we’re calling edgy contrarianism “counter-cultural in a deeply sexy way” now…
LMAO even.
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
Just follow the check list next time when running authorship queries & don't bother me, thanks
Icedoverblues@reddit
Russian propagandist or just a delicate flower? Same same I suppose.
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
I am an ancient and strong flower, like that of the magnolia. I am one of the original flowers, a beastly dinosaur bloom
Icedoverblues@reddit
Sure you are bud.
crusadertank@reddit
I just came to make the same comment
I sure hope that the US finally lets Europe do its own stuff and look after it's own interests without treating it as a vassal state, but sadly, it's unlikely to be so.
subpargalois@reddit
Yes. Trump can be fickle about many things, but about a couple pet issues he is reliably consistent.
He's long been remarkably transparent about being a NATO skeptic, and in this regard he has been unwavering. I'm doubtful he would have met our obligations if those obligations had been put to a serious test in his first term, and now the responsible people aren't in the room anymore.
He's long be unashamedly pro-Russia, and he has been extremely vocal about thinking that Ukraine aid is a waste of money. This is the majority opinion of the people he surrounds himself with as well. I do not have any doubt that any aid to Ukraine ends the day Trump takes office.
Sorry, Europe. We tried. You're on your own.
kwman11@reddit
It's critical that Europe prepare for US isolationism and protectionism, similar to the 1930s (early 1930s for tariffs). The Pacific and Asia will be the primary focus for US foreign policy.
Pick_Scotland1@reddit
We don’t know till it happens
But we must prepare to be on our own build up our military’s and arms Industry’s and prep for more independent economies
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
NATO is now pretty dead. There is no way any other country can count on Trump to follow up on any agreements, not even if they were renegotiated to be even more in Americas favor.
aquilaPUR@reddit
I literally have no idea what Trump is going to do. Yes yes, back in 2016 he was surrounded by GOP Establishment that kept him somewhat in line (just learned today that he ordered Assads elimination in 2016, but the order was not carried out and then he forgot about it) but now he has a bunch of yes-men and insane people like Musk or RFK (who plans on removing Flouride from drinking water and will "clear out entire departments of the HHS") who will encourage him on the crazy shit.
Ukraine is now his problem, so when he learns that Putin can not, in fact, be pacified with a phonecall, this shit could go south fast. What I know for certain though is that Bibi will get his Blank cheque, and the subsequent violence will make everything happening so far look like childs play. If Iran or its proxies try to intervene, Trump will probably join in on the fun and start "bombing the shit out of them" too as he likes to say.
I guess we can only wait and see. The guy is just unpredictable, and he is deteriorating. Could lash out in all directions, thats why its so funny that the Russians are celebrating his victory. Biden may have been a steady ukraine supporter, but he was very timid and you knew what to expect. With Trump, he might aswell join in on the war because something on the TV made him mad at the Russians (thats where he got the idea to blow up Soleimani btw)
TwunnySeven@reddit
they should be. if 2016 didn't already, this election proved that Europe cannot rely on the US aways being on their side. I think most Europeans would agree that the EU needs to start being a bit more proactive
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