Trump's victory: Is Europe now on its own?
Posted by Exastiken@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 273 comments
Posted by Exastiken@reddit | anime_titties | View on Reddit | 273 comments
ParagonRenegade@reddit
If Trump distances the USA from NATO then the only feasible path forwards for any kind of "United Europe" will be a proper European armed force. But of course, his victory all but assures the far right will gain everywhere in Europe, directly undermining the Federalist project in favour of extreme nationalism. On top of that, a more unified Europe would also make it more independent and push it towards its own agenda as opposed to one aligned with the USA.
As a socialist I despise NATO and wish for nothing but its destruction, so I find it hilarious, but if you're a liberal start busting your ass to turn the tide or you're fucked.
spudmarsupial@reddit
There is nothing socialist about Russia or China.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Never said there was.
spudmarsupial@reddit
Then why would you being a socialist make you despise NATO?
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Because NATO is the alliance of the liberal capitalist nations that form the greatest obstacle to a socialist society, most notably the USA. The bulk of the world's historic powers all being aligned in one right wing bloc is extremely detrimental to what I want.
zapporian@reddit
...so you're a socialist canadian pissed off that the US et al are standing in the way of and outright oppressing the ability for us all to move towards utopian communism.
LMAO.
Go watch Perun's video on the present state of the canadian military. And canada's present/future demographics et al.
Without the US and its nuclear shield, Russia and/or China will just outright invade you, and seize all of your natural resources, territory, and/or north passage arctic trade route (and general territorial integrity) that'll be opened up with climate change et al.
And I'm not even kidding here: there are probably individual chinese military brigades that have more combat power / firepower (and amphib capabilities) than the entire canadian military / ground forces at this point. Ditto your air force et al.
Europe has self defense problems, but Canada is that on crack.
QuantumUtility@reddit
The US loves to inflate its responsibility and relevance in the geopolitical space.
The world would be a lot safer if it stopped playing world police instead.
spudmarsupial@reddit
I still get tripped up by "liberal" meaning both right wing and left wing depending on who you are talking about.
Governments and organizations like power and control so they will always lean right, unless forced to pretend otherwise.
Constitutional monarchy seems to hold the line against authoritarianism the best, communism is weakest against takeover since it has no inbuilt checks and balances to prevent it.
NATO is military in nature and so will always be authoritarian, which is why it is intended to be controlled by civilian governments.
10000Lols@reddit
Lol
cutwordlines@reddit
99999 lols remaining
VgamaN@reddit
Lmao even
PTMorte@reddit
Not to mention the 120,000 or whatever foreign soldiers on European soil.
mormassoqueima@reddit
about China there are many things
stonkmarxist@reddit
I recall a lot of this talk last time Trump was in office and unfortunately the EU didn't move far enough or fast enough away from the US. Now we have this same issue again.
The EU should recognise by now that the US is not a reliable ally and should move to decouple itself from the US, especially militarily, as fast as possible so that when the US thrashes about like this we are unaffected.
Hopefully this second boot up the hole is what is needed to finally get our own house in order.
glymao@reddit
Honestly in hindsight, NATO countries missed the mark when Russia invaded Ukraine by immediately also denouncing every other country who didn't condemn Russia for economic reasons. This killed rapprochement with China and India in case the US ceases to be a reliable ally, which is exactly what's happening now.
The EU part of NATO needs to stop copy pasting US foreign policy talkpoints. China for example is not nearly as militarily adversarial to Europe as it is to the US.
enilea@reddit
India and China also wouldn't be reliable allies. Even several countries in the EU aren't reliable allies to itself.
glymao@reddit
They wouldn't be allies since the range of diplomacy is broader than just allies-enemies. Feel like people have been forgetting this part...
Minister_for_Magic@reddit
They wouldn't be reliable allies because China, for one, has a completely different geopolitical agenda that very rarely aligns with Europe's. It's naive is China has real alignment with European interests
glymao@reddit
Yeah the point being EU has been on a moral high horse over China and India even though neither countries really care about the EU.
The EU has been copying US foreign policies to a T and that is currently backfiring, since they can't afford to make more enemies.
And to think about it, when was the last time that Europe had to put in actual diplomacy work? I feel like the reductive "if you are not an ally, you are an enemy" has become a self fulfilling prophecy for the non-US NATO countries.
Wolfensniper@reddit
I mean both countries has no quarrel with EU except ideology, and France had been in good terms with China in 90s
ControlledShutdown@reddit
Maybe it's best to stop hoping for a reliable ally, and have multiple good enough allies as backup for each other.
One-Understanding-33@reddit
I‘d blame that on Obama and the economic entanglement we had with russia did the rest so we looked away.
Bacontoad@reddit
I think you're conflating the EU and NATO.
PTMorte@reddit
The EU has a binding mutual defence pact that compels members to defend each other and NATO is the infrastructure body through which forces are combined and deployed.
Bacontoad@reddit
Not all EU members are NATO members. Nor are all NATO members EU members.
PTMorte@reddit
Sure but my point is that the EU defence clause is what will actually trigger states coming to each other's aid. Not NATO article 9.
GalacticMe99@reddit
I just hope that in 2016 our politicians thought "Well this is interesting. No way Americans would be stupid enough to do this twice, right?"
And this is the wake up call that Americans are, in fact, stupid enough to elect people like Trump on a regular basis from then on until propably somewhere far into the future and they act on it
My hopes and expectation lay far apart, however...
Ropetrick6@reddit
Between the choice of a woman of color, or a rapist felon with ties to Russia, my countrymen apparently prefer Putin over minorities.
subliminallist@reddit
That’s not why she lost lol
Ropetrick6@reddit
Considering the fac that Project 2025 is explicitly trying to repeal the Respect for Marriage Act, the law that legalizes and protects interracial marriage, I'm pretty sure that her status as a woman of color has something to do with it.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
I'm sure you'd like that to be the reason.
Ropetrick6@reddit
Well, thank you for making it clear that you voted for the rapist.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
I voted for a guy called chase Oliver if you must know. And I voted democrat for ohio's senator since I think he did a fine job. . But if this helps you feel better feel free to keep doing it . Honestly I'm somewhat desensitized to the left's strategy of name calling.
At the end of the day trump flipped blue states like Michigan, every swing state went for him and he won the popular vote.
The entire country roundly and decisively rejected the Democrats' rhetoric and non platform. You apparently still think being a dick to everyone on Reddit that disagrees and getting some fake echo chamber karma points is the same as having a popular platform.
berejser@reddit
How does any of that mean that Trump is going to be a good leader that delivers positive outcomes for people? Just because the other guy backed the candidate who lost doesn't mean that what he's saying about Trump is factually incorrect. Elections don't determine facts, they only gauge opinions.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
Lol. He won't be s good leader. It's just that every place in the country rejected what the Democrats are selling. If that many people who know who trump is still rejected then it's time for some real soul searching. How bad must your messaging and platform and ideas be to fail this hard?
Ropetrick6@reddit
How is it "being a dick to everyone" to point out the fact that Trump was found guilty of rape in a court of law? Last time I checked, lying to cover your own ass is more of "being a dick to everyone", but that's just the factual viewing on the matter, and MAGA supporters seem to be more attracted to "alternative facts" nowadays.
CupaSoup87@reddit
No Nazi likes to be called a Nazi apparently, it still makes them a Nazi though
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
Well good luck with that. Maybe it will work better for you next time around.
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
"Democracy is the theory that the common man knows what he wants and that Europeans deserve to get it good and hard."
Ropetrick6@reddit
Oh, it's you again. Considering how much offense you took to me answering somebody's question about Israel with the Nakba, I'd have expected you to be in open celebration about the man who tried letting Bibi annex the West Bank having won the presidency.
I guess a broken clock is right twice a day.
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
Lol oh no here comes another long tantrum.
Ropetrick6@reddit
You DO realize you have the choice not to start whining about nothing, right? I just want to make sure you're aware that option exists, before you proceed to ignore it completely because somebody had the gall to acknowledge the existence of the Nakba.
Or you can show that you've grown as a person, but that'd be a rather surprising outcome given your behavior.
Mavian23@reddit
You just randomly accosted someone apparently from a prior Reddit comment, and you're accusing them of starting to whine?
Ropetrick6@reddit
So bringing up a person's previous acts towards you is "accosting" them according to you?
I remember back when words had meaning...
Mavian23@reddit
From Merriam-Webster:
Accost: to approach and speak to (someone) in an often challenging or aggressive way
Synonyms: confront, approach, affront
You accosted him.
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
😂
Ropetrick6@reddit
I'll take that as a no.
Gomeria@reddit
Both were bad choices.
one was a cultist and the other one spent the last year just saying im not him! On tv.
The reps won because the dems were inexistent. Clasical political party which its main feature is just being there, just being the oposition
LazyGandalf@reddit
That should really have been enough. Any bland politician should be preferable to the disaster that is Trump.
GalacticMe99@reddit
Preferable? Absolutely. Worthy an American's vote? Appearently not enough.
Gomeria@reddit
Not really, they were already doing a negible job and the nomine wasnt even liked on the dems.
If it werent for the BLM And the disastrous pandemic run from trump he wouldnt have even lost on 2020.
I mean, donald trump is the most dumb npc politician that you could find but you need someone with character agaisnt that, hell im sure obama's wife would have gathered more votes than kamala
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
That's the whole point of NATO though, without the US then NATO is pointless.
maddoxprops@reddit
Man, as an American that hurts to read, but I can't disagree with it.
Cloudboy9001@reddit
If Trump is serious about his universal tariff plan, it would push Europe and China closer economically.
Days_End@reddit
The issue is the EU in general seems to have no appetite to do this. They just keep failing further and further behind. It certainly doesn't help they've had by far the worst post covid recovery of all the major powers.
bjran8888@reddit
And then what? The EU found itself at war with Russia and initiated a trade war with China.
“Politics is about making more friends and fewer enemies”, who are Europe's friends now?
pm-me-nothing-okay@reddit
I think america wants EU to be as self sufficient as the EU wants to be self sufficient. I genuinely dont care about the supposed pros of america subsidizing EU defense network.
BorodinoWin@reddit
“decouple” 😂 This implies that the EU actually participates in the relationship and doesn’t just suck money from American pockets.
lmfao
Darkling5499@reddit
Seriously. For decades now the US has had to deal with basically all of Europe going "America is evil stop being the world police stop imposing your military will on everyone" and then the US has signs they're going to stop and Europeans are going "wait what why are you stopping????"
WhitishRogue@reddit
Unlikely though they may have to make some concessions and deal with some drama to keep American support in Ukraine.
Trump has said some controversial things that he since walked back on once he came into more privileged information. I suspect he will get the briefing and reconsider.
Though Donald Trump is also pretty vindictive. A long time ago he lambasted Germany for relying on Russian energy, they laughed. Trump also criticized low defense spending within NATO and they laughed. I doubt Trump forgot any of that and will seek to embarrass them in return.
It's going to be a more bumpy ride for Ukraine at the very least. Will Trump give them more to get a resolution or will he shif American interests elsewhere hoping Europe will pick up the slack?
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Yeah, Trump is an egotistical populist but he does care about US interests. Ukraine ending like Afghanistan would be a huge blow to him.
Europe itself is not at risk. Russia couldn't win a long war againts the entire EU even if the US wasn't involved. Best they could hope for is stalemate and I doubt that Putin would be willing to risk that, not to mention that there's not much to gain from randomly attacking a NATO country.
Rindan@reddit
Ukraine can't end like Afghanistan because there are no American soldiers in Ukraine. Pulling out of Ukraine is trivial. You just stop sending them stuff. Trump and more or less pull the plug on the first day of his presidency, and he is literally promised to do this. It is a delusional hope that Trump is going to continue to send weapons to Ukraine.
The fact that it was a strong Biden policy pretty much guarantees that Trump is going to end it, if the fact that Donald Trump and all of his buddies love Putin wasn't already true. You are completely delusional if you think that Trump is going to help Ukraine.
If Europe doesn't prepare for a victorious Russia high on defeating Ukraine, and no American support, Europe is going to find itself in the same situation that I found itself in World War II. There are a whole bunch of people running around saying that war is never going to happen again, even as everyone reloads and prepares to have war again.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Trump is fundamentally an egotistical populist, yes. That’s why there is no possible way he would want to just cut off Ukraine, because there is no real way to spin that to his favor. What he will probably do is put more and more pressure on Ukraine to reach some kind of deal, because that is literally his whole image. And he wants to be responsible for the end of the war, as soon as possible. And probably he will threaten to reduce or even cut off all support, but actually doing that is a worst case scenario from his perspective. And I guess ours, obviously.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
"We are spending billions for Europe and they don't spend anything"
Paraphrasing but Trump has always wanted out of NATO and his supporters agree with him.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Well, that’s a somewhat tangential issue, but also just false. Read your own words. He doesn’t want out of NATO, he wants to force all the other member nations to pay a greater portion of the NATO budget. Whatever “their fair share” is, I doubt even he has any idea, and certainly won’t say it, so that any concession becomes a win for him. But, actually just like Ukraine, pulling out of NATO is a worst case scenario for him. It’s a failure that he would try to spin if he can’t get a deal. But absolutely not a goal.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
The other members of NATO won't ever pay enough to satisfy Trump, because they simply don't have the resources and Trump treats NATO as a transaction instead of a partnership.
Pulling out of NATO is the only way he gets to save face in front of his supporters and that's the most important thing to him. He already pulled out of the TPP during his first term leaving East Asia open to Chinese influence.
Rindan@reddit
The first thing Trump did when he got into office last time was repeal literally everything Obama did that he could do with a pen stroke. All of it. He will EASILY write off Ukraine as a corrupt beger nation, as he already has.
He will "spin" it as stopping wasting money on a bunch of corrupt non-Americans to fight a dumb proxy war against Russia. He will celebrate ending Biden's war and stopping to waste American money on corrupt foreigners.
That's literally what he is going to do. He is going to tell Ukraine to make peace and that there will be no more free weapons. Whether or not Ukraine submits, the support is over.
There is no scenario where Ukraine receives more weapons from the US after February. Ukraine is either going to stand alone with the pathetic amount Europe can offer and their domestic production, or they are going to lose a large swaths of the country in a negotiated settlement. Considering how Ukraine has no US support now, Russia will have a very strong incentive to continue the war and archive his maximal victory of dragging Ukraine back into the Russian empire either in whole, or in part with a Belarus style puppet for the rest.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
It feels like we aren’t even necessarily disagreeing here, but it’s definitely a worst case scenario for Trump to just drop Ukraine outright. What he will try to do at all costs is force through some kind of peace. He definitely does not want to be seen as just abandoning our allies. He builds himself up as a master negotiator and a peacemaker, who is going to end this war before he even gets in office somehow. So even if the obvious boast isn’t true, his whole base will eat it up if he gets a peace deal in Ukraine. Which obviously Ukraine won’t want to accept, or Russia, so who knows, but I figure it’ll just be a bad deal, long before he would be willing to leave Ukraine to be outright conquered.
Rindan@reddit
Bro, put the crack pipe down for a second and think back just 4 years ago. What in Donald Trump's 4 years as President left you believing that he is concerned about "abandoning our allies". Listen to his best buddies and allies, Tucker, Vance, Musk, Bannon, and all of those losers. Which one of them, all of whom are massive Putin fans who literally talk to Putin on the regular, do you think is going to pulling for him to not "abandon our allies"? Who on earth do you think Donald Trump would be trying to impress by not "abandoning our allies"?
I'm sorry, but you can't seem to grasp, despite the mountains of evidence, that Donald Trump doesn't give a shit about our allies. He sees them all as leeches leeching off of American power, hiding behind the American shield at the expense of the American people. This is like believing that Trump would never tear up the Iran deal (which he did) because he can't renegotiate a better one.
I predict that Donald Trump is going to do exactly what he did last time he got in office. He is going to repeal and cancel every single executive order and policy that Biden put in place. All of them, including the ones on Ukraine. Congress will cut all funding to Ukraine because its is now fully controlled by Republics who all bow to Trump.
The fact that Ukraine is fucked isn't going to bother him in the slightest. He seems them as traitors that didn't give him the dirt he wanted on Biden. He doesn't seem them as "allies", because they are not official allies and he likes Putin. He isn't going to see Ukraine falling to Russia as an American defeat, just a defeat for dumb globalist liberals who backed a loser.
But sure, Donald Trump the master negotiator will probably hand Ukraine a peace plan written by Russia, and Ukraine will almost certainly refuse it.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Did you even read what I said at all? Donald Trump styles himself as an expert negotiator. You know “worst trade deal in the history of trade deals” and all that. But dropping all support of Ukraine while the war is still ongoing is at worst an empty threat, and one he hasn’t even openly made, though he definitely wants everyone to think he will. It’s basic Trump negotiating tactics. Threaten to tear the world down if you don’t get your way, and be the leader of the free world with enough power to force everyone to just go along with it. That second part definitely helps.
But he won’t actually nuke North Korea, for example. Not only does he not want to, I doubt it’s even on the table. An empty threat. The same for Ukraine, and every other negotiation he’s ever been in. What he wants is peace in Ukraine, because it suits his image. And he wants it to be his peace. But the absolute worst case scenario is the US dropping Ukraine and Russia outright winning. It makes him look weak, like he couldn’t get Putin, or worse, Zelenskyy, to do what he wanted.
Rindan@reddit
You just can't seem to understand this. Donald Trump doesn't consider Ukraine to be a part of any American conflict. Donald Trump doesn't give two shits if Ukraine, a non-ally, falls to Russia. He doesn't see that as an American defeat, anymore than he saw pulling out of the Iranian nuclear deal an American defeat. He consider it undoing a dumb Biden policy.
If Russia rolls over Ukraine because he stopped giving Ukraine a bunch of free American weapons and money, he is going to point to that and say, "See, look at how dumb Biden was backing this shitty little non-ally against Russia." In your mind, Ukraine's victory or success is American victory or success. In Donald Trump's mind, it's a dumb Biden policy that is ending.
No it doesn't. It makes him look vindicated, especially in the eyes of the Putin worshippers that surround him. If anything, I suspect that Trump is going to prove he is a "master negotiator" by cutting Ukraine loose in exchange for stuff from Russia.
Putin's in a maximal position. He is going to offer peace deals that Zelenskyy can't accept. What's Trump going to do if he rejects them? Trump isn't going to keep throwing money and weapons at Ukraine, so Russia has no reason offer terms that Ukraine can live with.
The only thing Putin has to do is offer terms Zelenskyy can't accept while at the same time heaping praise on the "master negotiator" Trump. Putin will get everything he wants. The US will back down from support of Ukraine, ending the "dumb Biden policy" of helping a non-ally against someone that doesn't need be America's enemy. If Putin flatters him enough, I bet he can even start to get sanctions lifted in exchange for crap that isn't worth anything.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Not really. Losing the entire Ukraine would be a huge political disaster, it's not just about the troops. It would mean that Russia beat the US in a proxy war.
He might, but not on Russian terms. He will want to be seen as the person who brought peace, not the one who surrendered to Russia.
The world is not the same like it was in 1939. Russia doesn't have a reason to invade the entire Europe. I mean, what would be the plan even if they won? Genocide everyone and create space for the Russian people? Install puppet goverments everywhere? There's just no way it could work.
Czart@reddit
"We have ended the pointless conflict elites and warmongering democrats have dragged us into". This is how it's going to get sold.
Add some lines about "saving lives", "saving taxpayer money", "respect on international stage" and voila, they'll cheer on it.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
Trump has never once cared about this, it's no skin off his nose and his supporters won't waver in light of this news because he can spin it into whatever he wants.
Haunting_Charity_287@reddit
Lol you talk as if any of the political realities of any of this applies to trump and his base.
They hate supporting Ukraine and many are vocally supportive of Russia and want them to succeed.
Trump could inflict crippling geopolitical defeats on the west via massive loss in Ukraine and Taiwan and he wouldn’t lose a vote because he’d claim they were democrat projects and beside Putin is a swell guy. His supporters don’t care. They don’t live in reality.
Rindan@reddit
No, it would mean that Biden lost his evil war against poor victim Russians. Literally nothing that Donald Trump has said or done has given any indication that he would help Ukraine in any way shape or form. Donald Trump has spent significantly more time talking to and kissing the asshole of Putin than he has Zelenskyy or any other leader. You are casting your hopes and dreams into the air, and I'm telling you that there is any single drop of evidence to support with your saying. There is a massive amount of evidence that shows that Putin has a new man on the inside. Just look at all of Trump's close advisors. All of them are Putin fans. Ukraine is fucked in terms of American help.
Donald Trump just does not see the war in Ukraine is having anything to do with the Americans, and so he's going to be perfectly fine to watch Ukraine lose. These are Donald Trump's own words, so anything that else you're hoping for is just wishes in the wind.
Donald Trump isn't going to surrender to Russia. Donald Trump is going to make an ultimatum to Ukraine to try and get them to surrender, Ukraine is definitely going to reject that ultimatum, and Donald Trump will happily wash his hands of it and never think of Ukraine ever again. The fact that Ukraine will then lose a year or two after that won't mean anything. No one in Trump's circle gives a shit. They don't see it as their war, so they aren't going to consider a defeat when in the Ukrainians lose.
I agree that Russia will not invade all of Europe. It's going to salami slice Europe. They are already doing it. Every nation cursed to share a border with Russia that can't defend itself is going to find itself being slowly eaten, or have their politics completely dominated by Russia. This has already happened, so it's not even hypothetical.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
I highly doubt that but we'll see.
You're vastly overestimating Russian capabilities. Even the Soviets couldn't keep the Warsaw pact on their side without their military. The best they can hope for is keeping the former USSR states under their influence without the Baltics.
Rindan@reddit
You are vastly overestimating Europe's capabilities, especially if they are dumb enough to stand alone one at a time like they currently are. The Americans are the only thing making it seem like you can have high cost welfare states, an aging and shrinking population, and tiny militaries that would be out of ammunition after a month of war.
We already say this is Libya where the French start a "war" and realize that they are out of ammunition in a week.
You don't get it yet. The US out. Europe has lived under that shield for so long that they think they can't possibly be hurt and joke (and it's not always a joke) about getting rid of their military.
The Soviets kept the Warsaw pact together despite fantastical efforts by the US to break it up and fuck it. That's gone now. The Americans are not home. You are on your own. It's time to wake up to the fact.
Look at you; already salami slicing yourself up, totally sure that Russia will be satiated on its imperial ambitions by the time they get to you.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
Again, even if Russia was to win what would they do? They can't occupy a territory of the size of Europe, hell even controlling the entire Ukraine would be a challenge. Remember Afghanistan or Iraq? Even the US had a hard time putting down the resistance in countries much smaller than the entire Europe with larger capabilities that Russia has.
Not to mention that in the case of a prolonged war, Europe would eventually be to outproduce Russia and use their manpower advantage. Russia isn't the Soviet Union, they don't have millions of soldiers ready.
Another thing is that even China wouldn't like if Russia was to conquer entire Europe. Plus Britain and France has nukes. There are so many reasons why this couldn't work it's crazy that you even consider it as a posibility.
Rindan@reddit
I agree that Russia is very unlikely to conquer "all of Europe". Good thing that's not a claim I made. Hitler never took "all of Europe". Literally no one has, ever, in the history of the world.
I said that Russia is going to continue to salami slice Europe like it already has, and that the slicing gets significantly easier when the US drops out of NATO. But sure, the Russians will be forced to stop when they hit a nation with nukes. How many nukes do you have?
You don't get it yet. Europe doesn't have an army that can defeat Russia. Ukraine and NATO are the only things in the way between Russia and the rest of Europe. The Baltic states are fucked without NATO.
Worse, Trump is going to take the financial pressure off Russia, so their economy is going to be improved, they will be able to work more openly with China, and in general they are going to get stronger while the eastern defenses of Europe get weaker. The EU is going to grow weaker, and the non-existent collective defense outside of NATO that has never been tested is going to be at the mercy of EU politics that are swinging right.
The only thing saving the rest of Europe after Ukraine is Poland. At least they recognize the threat and don't take it for granted that someone is going to save them, all they don't need to worry.
SneakyIslandNinja@reddit
I don't see how European nations building up nuclear arsenals, which I would support if what you say comes to pass, is in the interest of the US.
Germany could have a bomb in months if they seriously want to.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
A political disaster that would be forgotten by the Yanks by the time the next election rolls around.
Unkempt_Badger@reddit
A lot of his supporters don't care what happens to Ukraine. It would be nothing to him.
skunimatrix@reddit
If the EU started a full scale conflict joining in on Ukraine today they’d be out of munitions by the end of the Month without US resupply. Hell EU supplies of munitions lasted days in the Libyan intervention in 2011. Yes the EU could likely gain air superiority but the question is how long could they drop bombs and would it be enough to allow the massing of enough troops to break the Russian lines.
Federal_Thanks7596@reddit
I'm not talking about joining the war in Ukraine. I meant Russia invading the EU. Much easier to fight on your own territory.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
Not if your ammo stockpiles are as poor as Europe's are these days.
And there's another problem: too many countries, notably Britain (thanks Gordon Brown) lack a War Maintenance Reserve of replacement equipment and that's something that Lanchester's Law punishes very severely.
ParagonRenegade@reddit
Not if you literally lack ordnance to fight with lol.
Luis_r9945@reddit
EU better start arming themselves.
The US is out with Trump.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
Afghanistan ended the way it did because of him.
Instant_noodlesss@reddit
He is not mentally that well anymore. Is he going to be able to make decisions even when informed?
Luis_r9945@reddit
With RFK (known to hang out with Russian propgandist) Tucker (literally interviewed a Russian fascist) and Elon (Is in constant contact with Outin) by Trumps side....i really dont see American support for Ukraine continuing.
Europe and Ukraine are on their own.
GregRP@reddit
Seems like anyone who isn't a democrat, according your own post, is in league with russia, which stands testament to American media. Seems Russia HAS to be an enemy and the war in Ukraine MUST continue until Ukraine wins.
Instead, all the right (Republicans) propose is an end to the pointless death and misery. We, in Europe, who want to end the bloodshed also, value PEACE. We kept it, we held it, the democrats RUINED IT
MoratoryRex@reddit
Says who? The Ukrainians keep fighting, so obviously not them. The Russians keep sending more men, so not them.
Then you should probably be in favor of giving Putin a reason not to start wars. Giving him what he wants really seems counter productive
splader@reddit
Do most Ukrainians still support fighting in the war?
MoratoryRex@reddit
The Ukrainian government? Yes. The Ukrainian people? Divided.
My point was more along the lines of "It's not foreigners who can decide a war is pointless." If the Ukrainians don't want to fight the war, it up to them to sue for peace.
cultish_alibi@reddit
There's no end to Russia's war, even if they win in Ukraine, that's not the end, it just means Russia is free to attack more countries. Putin is a bloodthirsty warmonger, and murder and war is all he knows. If they take over Ukraine that only makes things worse.
But I'm sure a Putin-apologist such as yourself would never admit such a thing, would you? You just want peace, and all it takes is allowing fascist Russia to murder everyone who gets in their way.
Tricky-Ad5678@reddit
The US took over the process, but it is Europeans who caused and condoned Maidan (and Ukrainian and Eastern European nationalism in general), it was European leaders who sabotaged the Minsk Agreements, and it is European countries who wanted a "longer war for weaker Russia" and intervened in 2022 negotiations. It is Europe who wanted Georgia to open "the second front" against Russia, "There are three or four millions of you, Russians won't be able to kill everyone".
Doesn't look peaceful to me.
livehigh1@reddit
Ofc you're going to sound like a russian puppet because the proposal is to let them keep parts of ukraine as the invaders. Lol.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
I mean they will, and were always going to, that's not what any of this is about. Nor is it about faux outrage about invasions or what not. That shit is normal, and frankly based when we do it.
Bleeding Russia in Ukraine and getting the full mileage out of our pawns over there is in our national interests. I hope that the new administration continues the program. This is a prime geopolitical setup that doesn't come around very often.
thatthatguy@reddit
Peace through appeasement and capitulation. Give the aggressor everything they demand and maybe they’ll stop beating you up. Because that has worked so well every other time it has been tried.
Luis_r9945@reddit
I clearly stated (except maybe Tulsi) why these people are in leagues with Russia. Not even mentioning their Russian propaganda rhetoric.
There is a reason why Russia supports predominantly right wingers. They are isolationist...simple.
There is no Peace with Russia unless there is deterrence. Which requires standing up to Putin.
Appeasement never worked.
Its naive to think war will end if Ukraine gives up....but im sure you know what you are saying.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
It's not just that the American Right is isolationists, they also find the idea of the "Stronk Man" leader attractive.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
It's not really peace if you just do whatever Pooty the House Elf wants, it's just surrender with fewer steps.
annewmoon@reddit
lol yeah if we could just be kind to Russia they might play nicely!!
TheGreatSpaceWizard@reddit
Trump was impeached for trying to get Ukraine to open investigations into Hunter Biden's business dealings. That impeachment will be a black mark on his record forever. He has not forgotten, and I believe he will seek vengeance for it.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
If you accumulate enough black marks, you just end up with a 100% black coating. So long as you wear that with no shame, some people will love the look of it
[Edit: apologies for the slightly painful metaphor]
stonkmarxist@reddit
Surely this would require a large change in support from Republican elected reps. A large portion of them support Ukraines stand against Russian aggression.
I'm also not sure even Trump would have the political capital to pull support in such a way. There would be a 0% chance he'd beat the Russian stooge allegations if he did
spudmarsupial@reddit
Why would he care if he is seen to be a Russian stooge? He has never suffered consequences, no reason to think he believes in them.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
He's already seen as a Rusdian stooge. Didn't hurt him yesterday
pseudopad@reddit
Trump could declare in front of a dozen news reporters streaming/broadcasting live that he was a Russian puppet, and we'd still have a good 30% of the population thinking he was joking, and another 30% defending him being a puppet.
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
If those accusations don't make it to Fox News then they don't exist
Ropetrick6@reddit
The problem is you're expecting Republican politicians and leaders to have the slightest bit of integrity in the face of the Trump Qult. It's political suicide to not fall into line behind the orange messiah.
Also, Trump's in the process of dying. He's the oldest president in history, he has a history of drug abuse, and he's never been healthy. Even if he lives through his term, he won't live long enough to personally face repercussions for being a Russian asset.
Wolfensniper@reddit
If he died on the term we might had Vance which is just horrible
Ropetrick6@reddit
It is my sincere hope that Trump is too senile to do anything, too popular in the Qult to be deemed incapable of acting as president, an survives the entirety of his term. Sadly, signing whatever Project 2025 documents wind up at his desk, including judge selections, seems to be something he's still capable of doing for now.
I'd also accept the Rapture, Thanos Snap of the GOP, or alien invasion at this point. Our interstellar overlords are hopefully less prone to child marriage and murdering minorities than MAGA.
dcrico20@reddit
The GOP is not in support of Ukraine funding writ large, I have zero clue where you got that idea. The GOP is no longer the anti-Russia party of the Reagan years. If they didn’t have such a slim majority in the house, funding would have been cut off long ago.
The Democratic party is the party that is unified on this issue.
loggy_sci@reddit
There are some MAGA warhawks that want to fund Ukraine with more conditions on how the funding is spent.
dcrico20@reddit
Yes and they are the outliers in the party.
loggy_sci@reddit
The Outliers may have enough votes in the House to deal.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Republicans will fall in line as they did when they blocked the Bipartisan Border Bill.
They wouldnt dare stand against Trump and be deemed a Rhino.
Not after this election
chambreezy@reddit
That border bill was not good and it would have been terrible if it passed!
Hope you wake up to the fact that you're in the minority, the rest of the people have clearly woken up to all the bullshit rhetoric and lies.
Going on about Tulsi Gabbard and Tucker Carlson as if they are Russian spies, get a grip man. This is the reason your party lost, because you lost touch with reality.
Darkling5499@reddit
Surely, if we continue to call everyone who doesn't vote for us garbage nazi fascists, they'll change their minds!!!
ExistingCarry4868@reddit
The Nazi's also denied they were fascists.
Darkling5499@reddit
"We're going to call you garbage nazi fascists and use the fact that you say you aren't as PROOF you are garbage nazi fascists"
ok then.
ExistingCarry4868@reddit
It's very clear that the current political right in the US is fascist. Anyone arguing otherwise doesn't understand what fascism is. The fact that they are garbage people is more debatable, but under every form of morality or ethics I have ever studied they look bad. I don't think I can change any of the trumpist's minds, because I don't think they have the intellectual capacity for either research or self reflection, but I can help wake up normal people to the danger of letting violent fascists into power.
TheRustyBird@reddit
shit, when you have nazis waving nazi flags at your rallies...not sure how else to take that except your holding nazi rallies?
riskyrofl@reddit
If we just keep changing the definition of authoritarian as Trump keeps pushing the boundary, everything will be fine! Getting a mob to storm the capitol, telling everyone he will be a dictator on day one, totally fine!
hollow114@reddit
If Trump stopped saying shit like "poisoning the blood of America" a literal Hitler quote. Maybe people would stop making the comparison?
chambreezy@reddit
Gosh darn, how did we not see that that was a terrible strategy!! Damn, maybe in another 4 years we'll call them super-murderers and we'll convince them then.
loggy_sci@reddit
Which candidate was talking about immigrants eating dogs?
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
Gabbard and Carlson aren't Russian spies silly.
They're Russian assets. There is a difference.
Cloudsareinmyhead@reddit
Never said they were spies, they just suck him off relentlessly
Ok-Suggestion-5453@reddit
Yeah this has ended any debate about Trump Republicans vs old school Republicans for me. This election means that Trump's opinion will be the Republican opinion indefinitely.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
Trump is the end of US democracy the same way Caesar ended the Roman republic except he's a bumbling buffoon.
Wheream_I@reddit
Holy crap how often does this have to be repeated.
Just because a single Republican senator took part in writing it, does not make it bipartisan. One senator does not represent the GOP.
Also it was an awful bill that put into law an acceptable amount of daily and weekly illegal immigration, which is idiotic. The acceptable amount is 0.
loggy_sci@reddit
The reason it didn’t pass is because the GOP wanted to campaign on immigration. They will continue to want to campaign on immigration.
clivet1212@reddit
Yeah how’d that work out? If the bill had been passed it would’ve blocked hundreds of thousands if not millions. You got your election win, but don’t act like you cared about the border now.
runsongas@reddit
the republican base will believe what they are told if Trump says he got Ukraine a very fair peace deal but they still rejected it. Putin may even offer a few small token concessions to make it seem like Trump is getting them a better deal.
Socky_McPuppet@reddit
They are all spineless weasels and as others have said, they will fall in line.
The utter spinelessness of the Republicans is matched only by that of the Democrats.
ralphy1010@reddit
The ones who have been saying that will fall in line or they will be primaried by their own party and out of a job.
RCM19@reddit
Even assuming Congress bucks Trump and would continue to support sending money to Ukraine, the President has a lot of means to slow-walk that even if Congress were to overcome a veto of a bill appropriating funds for the effort.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Republicans will fall in line as they did when they blocked the Bipartisan Border Bill.
They wouldnt dare stand against Trump and be deemed a Rhino.
Not after this election
Tangata_Tunguska@reddit
Trump himself has pribably been ensnared since the 80s.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/jan/29/trump-russia-asset-claims-former-kgb-spy-new-book
They do this nearly universally to anyone has a chance if being important
jarjarbinx@reddit
then trade will reopen between US and Russia. Russia will have enough money to keep the war going.
Airowird@reddit
The MIC will not be happy with that choice, especially not if they can get the EU to sponsor some US weapons to give to Ukraine in a deal!
Emblem89@reddit
Small caveat, the USA weapon industry really wants to keep supporting Ukraine. Very rich and influential group there. Not saying Ukraine is gonna be fine, but it might complicate things.
cultish_alibi@reddit
They are sending very few new weapons to Ukraine. Ukraine is getting old American military supplies, and the MIC is making new weapons to restock the US. It's a subtle but important difference.
Zipz@reddit
Don’t forget Jill stein(the Russian asset) who won’t even call Putin a war criminal even though he has warrants out for his arrest.
OhJShrimpson@reddit
Lil bit of a stretch here buddy.
Luis_r9945@reddit
Is Trump not in close dealings with these people?
OhJShrimpson@reddit
Your premises are what's weak. RFK talks to a guy that interviewed Putin, so he is a Russian asset? Do you have any indication musk spoke with Putin on anything beyond SpaceX operations? Maybe he didn't want his rockets shot down?
Luis_r9945@reddit
RFK talks with Scott Fucking Ritter.
A Pedo who now propagates Russian propganda....
SpaceX operations are approved by the FAA and predominantly conducted by NASA....there is no threat of his rockets being shotndown.
Lol what a ridiculous statement
atreides------@reddit
Dude, you have not been paying attention.
dcrico20@reddit
You live in fantasyland if you think Ukraine gets a dime of US aid under Trump and a government that is controlled by Republicans in every branch.
WhitishRogue@reddit
Incoming president's hold their own views. But upon access to more information and influential people, they snap to a more standardized approach.
Trump will have his deviations, but at the end he will be manipulated to do as he's told.
dcrico20@reddit
There are plenty of ways to keep the military industrial complex well fed that don't involve Ukraine, and we are likely to find out exactly what the flavor of choice will be for Trump and the GOP.
Constant_Charge_4528@reddit
Like Israel
dcrico20@reddit
Yeah my guess is Trump is gonna open the floodgates to Bibi.
hrafnulfr@reddit
Just as in the beginning of WWII, We're on our own from now on.
Musikcookie@reddit
I‘m feeling super good about saying ”You know, he‘s wrong 99% of the time, but he‘s right about Nato defense spending“ back when it wasn‘t cool. It‘s good to be able to see when someone is right even when you despise them.
berejser@reddit
The problem is that he's not right, he's just using it as a stick to beat NATO with. Even if everyone got their defence spending to 3% all Trump would do is find a different stick.
Musikcookie@reddit
He‘s right and the content of the statement is not reversed by its purpose. He could also say that Nato members need to keep in like with the 2% because it‘s his favorite number and he‘d still be right about the 2%.
I‘d never would go so far to assume a solid reasoning process behind Trumps statements until proven otherwise if that‘s what bothers you though.
WhitishRogue@reddit
Yeah I've come to realize military spending isn't something you want to be too cheap on. A smooth 2% every year could've kept Russia back. Now we are all panicking and spending 4% in a rush.
I'll admit military spending provides nothing beyond security. $100,000 for a bomb or farming equipment?
Musikcookie@reddit
Honestly, back then I believed it was merely for diplomatic reasons. Because you can‘t expect other countries to do your part of military spending for free for you and expect them to be all happy about it.
But these days it might simply be necessary to win the wars coming.
Ornery-Concern4104@reddit
To be fair, I'm not sure what he can embarrass Europe with. He's going to wreck the country, he's a clown who from the last time he was in power, is really bad at his job and more importantly, as we've seen last time, he has no bargaining chip or leverage to make anything stick with any form of impact. Remember the whole deal with Steel? The EU didn't take that lying down and pants him in front of everybody
The issue trump Is now facing is how much he's willing to relinquish power because we know the EU are very very very aggressively waiting for American control to slip on anything that affects the international market security or foreign policy. For years, there's been a tension between the EU and UN because of American control but that doesn't necessarily have to be a permanent thing and the EU knows this. It's why when establishing the EU peace keeping battalion, the EU was very happy to let any bad from it pass to the UN because it made it look like all offensive action was a result of the US
radred609@reddit
You might, but nobody in america does.
berejser@reddit
That's because they lost.
Icy-Cry340@reddit
At the end of the day europeans are dickless. Trump or not, we will remain on top.
One-Understanding-33@reddit
It seems that europe can‘t trust the USA anymore if all it takes is a change in leadership to say fuck it to security promises.
The only thing we can hope for is Putin somehow getting on the annoying oranges bad side.
WhitishRogue@reddit
There's a ton of experts and knowledgeable people in the government apparatus. While Trump is the most powerful person in the country, he is far from the only opinion that matters.
berejser@reddit
For now.
One-Understanding-33@reddit
But isn‘t his whole thing to replace them with loyalists to run the country like a company?
I think this will be the thing that his inner circle will work towards, he gets to play boss a little, go golfing and then his people will basically do project 2025.
berejser@reddit
I really do home that Europe finds its feet and get out from underneath America's yoke. They keep demonstrating that they don't deserve the title "leader of the free world" when before too long they'll be neither leading nor particularly free.
Zaphod_Beeblecox@reddit
Why can't Europe pick up the slack?
stewmberto@reddit
What an incredibly optimistic take.
skunimatrix@reddit
Ukraine worked the democrats to impeach him the first time. That decision likely just lost them this war.
WhitishRogue@reddit
Oh yeah forgot about that. It'll have an effect, but I doubt it will change the final decision.
You gotta admit Hunter Biden having a high ranking job in a Ukrainian energy company is about as cliche as it gets. The dude doesn't have the skill sets for energy, management, or finance. He also can't say a single word in the native language.
Darkling5499@reddit
Don't forget Biden being literally on video bragging that he got a Ukrainian prosecutor fired that was trying to investigate Hunter.
Luis_r9945@reddit
I mean, Trump was rightfully impeached for that.
It's not like Ukraine impeached Trump, he did it to himself
skunimatrix@reddit
Doesn’t matter right or wrong: Ukraine picked the losing side in that one and it will cost them the war.
n05h@reddit
Correction, Trump picked Putin. Ukraine didn't pick shit. What the mental gymnastics is this?
Luis_r9945@reddit
They didnt pick shit.
The US investigated it, why would Ukraine block the US?
Icy-Cry340@reddit
The resolution in Ukraine will only go one way anyhow. The important part is keeping that war going as long as possible.
amanset@reddit
Honestly? I don’t care. In fact it may be for the best. The US works really only in its own interests and a strong Europe, mainly speaking of the EU, is necessary to counter the idiocy of both the US and Russia.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
But not Chinas because they’re such good fellas
DeepState_Secretary@reddit
Who cares about China honestly.
Let China waste blood and money on empire. Not like it’s done us any good.
roy1979@reddit
EU was always on its own. US support doesn't come for free, they negotiate deals and if it doesn't work out support is stopped. That's not going to change even if Trump comes into power. The only thing that will change is he will arm-twist more and get better deals which he can brag about.
squngy@reddit
Better deals for him personally, not better for the US.
roy1979@reddit
I have a neutral opinion about him. I think he tries but his party doesn't support him (they still him as an outsider) and ends up failing.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Only sane take here. The whole image Trump builds around himself is that businessman “Art of the Deal” aesthetic. He’s definitely going to be strong arming various allies in all sorts of ways, but pulling out of NATO is obviously an empty threat.
berejser@reddit
The problem with that image is that there's no substance behind it. In four years of governing he didn't deliver a single favourable deal for the US.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
Right. Okay. But that’s irrelevant to his goals and purpose, which is what I’m talking about here. It might be a bad deal, but what he wants very obviously is to maintain this image and accrue a record of supposed wins for his base to be excited about. “Proof” at the wisdom of putting such a “skilled businessman” in control of the country.
Leaving NATO does not do that. What he wants, and almost certainly will get, is for European countries to spend more on defense.
kimana1651@reddit
The EU as a region is ... stable and powerful. Are we worried that they can't fend for themselves if they can't work out a deal with the US?
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
They don’t want to put guns in people’s hands because that would be really scary to Germany
pm-me-nothing-okay@reddit
Europe as a region, yes. The EU though? that is a political shit show for discussions like this. They cant even get together to agree on immigration policy much less a defense plan.
kimana1651@reddit
They don't need full membership agreement. Just the normal alliances to form and function like they have for the past 500 years.
perestroika12@reddit
EU is very divided culturally and politically. The US solved an important defense problem by just being the defense. As a united and unilateral nation it can act without having to negotiate with member states.
Imagine every US state having to hash out troop deployments instead of the US defense establishment just figuring it out.
kimana1651@reddit
If only the individual countries that make up the EU having a long history of alliance and war to support them.
Days_End@reddit
Yes, we are worried mostly because the EU as a region is anything but "stable and powerful". The last decade and more importantly the post covid recovery has really show they are way more dependent on the USA than anyone thought.
kimana1651@reddit
All lies on the back of the American atlas then? Maybe it's best to pull the bandaid now then before it gets worse.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
I still think trump will make them re arm to some degree even if they do concede in trade. American automakers are gonna be feasting.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Man that first message of Rutte just infuriates me. 'NATO has 31 countries ready to protect American interests.'
Can us Europeans FINALLY grow a spine and stop being the glorified vassal empire of the US?
master12211@reddit
Look, man, i agree with you, but polls and stuff amongst the young have consistently said that there is a low amount willing to defend their OWN country if attacked, never mind fellow NATO members.
DasUbersoldat_@reddit
Maybe because we've been forced into American proxy wars for decades.
mikelo22@reddit
Rutte is very smart though. He did this back in 2016 too. He knows that the best way to manipulate Trump is to appeal to his own ego.
bjran8888@reddit
Europe will now have to face the US, Russia and China as colleagues. The funniest thing is that the trade war with China was even initiated by Europe.
berejser@reddit
Do-able. Russia is a non-entity at this point, they can't even defeat the 2nd poorest nation in Europe alone. China is a continent away and it's influence within Europe is waning. And the US, while no longer a dependable ally, is not openly hostile to Europe.
When taken together, Europe has the population, natural resources, economy, manufacturing capacity, etc. to go toe-to-toe with every other global power, the US included. The only thing they lack are the centralised structures and institutions to properly coordinate a common defence policy. I imagine there is now appetite to do something about that.
bjran8888@reddit
“The only thing they lack is a centralized structure and agency to properly coordinate a common defense policy.”
Don't you yourself know exactly what the problem is?
The EU is, in the end, just a union, not a country.
BurialA12@reddit
What can be, Europe finally is unburden by what has been
bjran8888@reddit
They haven't begun to suffer the consequences of this ...... Now they're just beginning to have to.
Another_WeebOnReddit@reddit
and Israel too
NamelessWL@reddit
They really didn't have much of a choice. Germany particularly would have been hammered by cheap EVs entering their market and completely displacing their manufacturers. Then what? It's not like the German economy is growing, they had to do something in order to prevent taking a significant hit in a sector that employs like 7% of their country.
bjran8888@reddit
Germany is totally opposed to the bill, including Schulz and German auto companies.
SunderedValley@reddit
The US involvement in Europe has been a net negative for Europe 9 out of 10 times not to mention the involvement in the middle east constantly leading to issues in Europe via refugee waves that caused internal divisions. The place is still trying to deal with the murder of Gaddafi for example and the political chaos that that has led to.
zapporian@reddit
...you mean excluding WW2, WW1 (where we / wilson at the very least attempted to save you from yourselves), the post-war era where the US + USSR rebuilt and liberalized / communized all of destroyed europe, and the entire cold war where the US / NATO explicitely built up a ludicrously large standing military / apocalyptic military deterrence to prevent western europe from getting invaded + overrun by the USSR?
Don't forget that the present state and past 100 years of history of the middle east is very specifically the fault of France and the UK, and that the post-war US under Truman et al pivoted to supporting and backstopping UK and French foreign policy + colonial interests, not vice versa.
Israel / Palestine is also explicitly, 100% the UK's fault. And the French backed them for decades with arms sales et al, well before we did. And the suez crisis - which fucked US interests, mind - was due to a european (again French / British) proxy war between Israel + Egypt, over control of the suez canal.
Don't blame us for bullshit that y'all started. The middle east is your backyard, not ours.
apistograma@reddit
No, no. Some American who can discern Slovenia from Slovakia told me that we're so fortunate to have them and without them we'd be lost or something.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
What a wise and kind American to tell you the truth. Verified by a True American Patriot
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
Don’t forget the US stepped in and stopped a genocide in Europe because Europe couldn’t.
rhino369@reddit
Libya was a French and British adventure. America just finished what Europe started.
MediocreOw@reddit
Yes Europe is on its own. Anyone who tells you otherwise has short term memory. Does everyone forget why Trump was impeached? Does quid pro quo not ring any bells? Trump wanting to back out of NATO? Had Trump won in 2020 Russia would have ran through Ukraine in a month. Now Russia gets a redo.
pheret87@reddit
Europe is like 44 countries. How can 44 countries be on their own?
MediocreOw@reddit
Guess we'll find out soon, won't we
thatthatguy@reddit
Hypothetically there might not have been an open shooting war between Russia and Ukraine because without US support they would never have had the courage to stand up to Russia in the first place. They would have rolled over and let Russia take whatever Putin wanted with only token resistance. Or, as that side of the spectrum would call it, no need for a war.
So remember kids, when you are being bullied and beaten up, whatever you do, don’t fight back or defend yourself in any way. Doing so only means they have to hurt you even worse. Ladies, this means you too. Lay there and take it, maybe cooperate a little, so your attacker doesn’t have to hurt you worse.
I feel like I’m going to throw up…
Fastenbauer@reddit
Ukraine has been fighting Russians (not just separatists but actual Russians) inside of Ukraine since 2014. So it's a save bet to assume that they would have resisted with everything they had.
zapporian@reddit
Yes, this. And they did resist in the first place thanks to contingency (or rather, inevitability) planning by Zaluzhny et al. Without the US, and hell without the direct involvement and knowledge of the Ukrainian president for that matter.
Ergo why Ukraine not immediately falling over when / after Russia invaded came as much of a surprise as it did to the US. And why we were providing javelin + stinger shipments in anticipation of an insurgency after the ukrainian military had largely been destroyed. Not that they would keep key capabilities (air defense, artillery, armored + mech units) intact. And keep fighting with all of those things until those were inevitably / eventually attritted into oblivion.
MediocreOw@reddit
Even worse, when they see how easy it is, they'll do it to others. Do not be surprised if Russia blitzes through eastern europe to try and rebuild the USSR which Putin has said he wants to do
Pentinium@reddit
Surely nato is enough for him not to do it. Surelyyy
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I think it’s you that has short term memory here. Trump on NATO is a very well-known and obvious position. He doesn’t like how much America has to pay for it, and wanted/wants other member nations to pay a greater portion of the costs. Actually pulling out of NATO is a mostly empty threat, and if he would ever consider it, that’s as a last resort, because his goal instead is to just force other countries to pay more.
Though his base could definitely be convinced that pulling completely out of NATO isn’t insane. It definitely wouldn’t be an achievement, in general reception.
Hlallu@reddit
This is the somewhat reasonable take that I'm hopeful for. Currently trying to trust that Trump's words and 'persona' are just that, words, and he actually knows better than to do what he has been claiming. It might be true. Although his last presidency showed a lot of behavior that doesn't make me confident in his political maneuvering.
Definitely nervous by how much he talks about pulling out of NATO, pulling funding from western allies in Europe, and redirecting as much aid as possible to Israel's ongoing war... but here's hoping those are all just claims/soundbites and he knows better than to actually do any of it.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I mean, I don’t see this as hopeful, really. I guess I am hopeful that he doesn’t do a lot of things, but in this particular case, it’s pretty unlikely America does anything like leave NATO. This is just what his open opinion on the subject is, often repeated.
Some barely intelligible variation of: “NATO. Let me tell you about NATO. I love NATO, I do. But Germany, England, France, they don’t love NATO like I do. They won’t support it. There’s no support. It’s just us, holding up all the world without any support. All those other countries, they’re ripping us off, trying to play us for fools, they are. It’s the worst deal in the history of deals. I would know. So we’re going to tell them, I’ll tell you, we’ll tell them they need to pay up. We’re paying too much. Way too much. Sky high. It’s robbery. And if they won’t pay, then we’ll leave, and we’ll see how they like that, NATO.”
It’s a threat if they don’t bow down and make him look good. Which, you know, is bad. Maybe a controversial take.
But it isn’t his goal to leave NATO, it would be a last resort if he can’t get his way. One he might or might not be willing to take if the rest of the world calls his bluff. Not sure on that.
yungsmerf@reddit
NATO doesn't have costs that the U.S. disproportionately covers, though. The defense spending agreement only specifies what percentage of their GDP each member should contribute to their national security, which the U.S. doesn't provide if the percentage is not met by said member.
There is also the annual $4 billion in operational costs, of which the U.S. contributes about 15%, the same as Germany, for example.
Bloodgiant65@reddit
I’m not saying he’s right. I’m saying that’s his position, and what he wants to happen as a consequence. Which is very different from pulling out of NATO completely.
Ikswoslaw_Walsowski@reddit
Everyone's got a short term memory
secretPT90@reddit
With this wil the US stop being the world police?
Maybe. Their narcissist atittude and selfish actions have been getting bigger through the years, so they will leave many situations on order to keep the narritive of center of the world.
Europe is not dependent on US as many think. We have our owns agreements with other external countries and peace measurements to deal with problems.
The Ukraine has kept going thanks to the USA funding, the Europe it's more worried about the ucranian people that might migrate into Europe and worsen the migration crisis.
So the solution in Ukraine by Europe it's peace, in order to avoids dislocations of people and institutions.
The other problem it's the Middle East (Palestine & Yemen) where the US took an agressive action but now may backup and leave the other nations to deal the peace, it will be hard for european diplomacy to clean this. Also there's problems due to Yemen pirates in fhe Red Sea, creatings shortages in naval transport to Europe.
ExArdEllyOh@reddit
You will miss them when they are gone, even over there in Portugal.
azurestrike@reddit
Will they be gone though? I doubt they'll suddenly not spend a trillion dollars a year on their military.
What will that go towards? There's only so much money that they can burn on shitty Lockheed / Boeing prototypes.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
Well the world stage is much bigger and grander than the European stage. I think if the Yemeni pirates or any other groups disrupt natural gas or oil shipments then the US would be more than happy to provide Europe energy for a good price. But other than that trump will put America on a path of refocusing on Asia where things are really important.
Bidens_Erect_Tariffs@reddit
Oh we'll still spend the money.
It'll just all be for show.
secretPT90@reddit
Who's gone? The Americans?
AndyReidsStache@reddit
As someone from the US I hope you don’t but man you might be about to find out that a post US policed EU is gonna look a wholllleeee lot different
toxicunderGroov@reddit
Pre US policed we started 2 World War's and patented just about any form of violence. Current times are pretty peaceful overall, pity the world when Europe awakens does it's fascist thing again.
secretPT90@reddit
It will look like hell, a fresh example is Afghanistan.
From an over militarized zone to a lawless place, that's why many nations now look for others helps (in extreme case like Russia or China)
fourmi@reddit
Maybe Europe needs to think otherwise than just being the little bitch of the US. Perhaps it's time to consider standing on its own, making decisions independently, and defining a clear path forward without relying on transatlantic guidance.
ComeKastCableVizion@reddit
As long as Europe caves in immediately to his demands(moving money out of social welfare programs and into their military budget) gives him a huge win then the US will stay in NATO.
This will not happen and Europe will blame America even though the writing was on the wall, Europe needs to re arm.
eightNote@reddit
The republicans when they have power become deeply divided against each other. The leadership of Congress and the senate will again be contentious, and in his previous admin, forced him to not drop pressure on Russia
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
No one knows yet what Trump will do. Frankly, if I was in Europe I would have jumped at what Macron has been saying about a domestic defense industry— this is THE moment to build that.
berejser@reddit
Apart from all of the things he said he would do, and the four years of stuff that he already did, I guess we have no way of knowing.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
I didn’t vote for Trump but that’s just the truth unless you want to admit your crystal ball
berejser@reddit
You don't need a crystal ball, you can make informed inferences based on the wealth of information we already have from 1) his policy platform, and 2) his performance during his first term.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Ok, if your argument here is that you can make informed inferences then we don’t disagree.
StyleOtherwise8758@reddit
Ok, if your argument here is that you can make informed inferences then we don’t disagree.
viper5delta@reddit
I'd recommend, yall over in Europe start developing/expanding your own nuclear umbrella(s). I'd say my country has demonstrated adequately that it's to unstable and bipolar to be relied on for jack shit.
sweetno@reddit
Yes? I mean, he has a point. Why should the US care about a third-world country far-far away for which other people (in the EU) should care way more anyway. Let Europeans sort out their shit, esp. those insane German politicians.
berejser@reddit
The US is also far-far away from Europe, but I still care about all of the pregnant women who will now die as a result of Trump withdrawing their healthcare, and I care about all of the babies and young children who will die of measles, polio, and other easily preventable diseases once RFK takes away their vaccines. I care about these things because I am a human being and therefore capable of feeling empathy, even for people who are an ocean away.
dummary1234@reddit
That would hold more ground if it wasnt for the fact that NATO was the US' idea, and theyve been the biggest contributors to he alliance.
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
The US under Biden blew up Nord Stream 2... that, along with against-our-interests sanctions on Russia have crippled German industry... are we alone now...? You gotta hope so
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
This you?
https://www.reddit.com/r/anime_titties/s/HGQlV10eSn
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
✔️ Good points, witty vibe
✔️ Historically informed
✔️ Counter-cultural in a deeply sexy way
✔️ Same username
Yes this meets all criteria for a commentary of mine
xarsha_93@reddit
Yup, so informed. My friend’s dad who refused to let the police search his phone when they boarded the bus totally deserves to be locked away in a secret camp.
I’m sure you’re very well connected with the Venezuelan community and get all your information in Spanish from first-hand sources.
mormassoqueima@reddit
I am Brazilian, fluent in spanish as well and he is mostly spot on.
Necessary_Win5111@reddit
So we’re calling edgy contrarianism “counter-cultural in a deeply sexy way” now…
LMAO even.
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
Just follow the check list next time when running authorship queries & don't bother me, thanks
Icedoverblues@reddit
Russian propagandist or just a delicate flower? Same same I suppose.
HoFattoScaloAGrado@reddit
I am an ancient and strong flower, like that of the magnolia. I am one of the original flowers, a beastly dinosaur bloom
Icedoverblues@reddit
Sure you are bud.
crusadertank@reddit
I just came to make the same comment
I sure hope that the US finally lets Europe do its own stuff and look after it's own interests without treating it as a vassal state, but sadly, it's unlikely to be so.
subpargalois@reddit
Yes. Trump can be fickle about many things, but about a couple pet issues he is reliably consistent.
He's long been remarkably transparent about being a NATO skeptic, and in this regard he has been unwavering. I'm doubtful he would have met our obligations if those obligations had been put to a serious test in his first term, and now the responsible people aren't in the room anymore.
He's long be unashamedly pro-Russia, and he has been extremely vocal about thinking that Ukraine aid is a waste of money. This is the majority opinion of the people he surrounds himself with as well. I do not have any doubt that any aid to Ukraine ends the day Trump takes office.
Sorry, Europe. We tried. You're on your own.
kwman11@reddit
It's critical that Europe prepare for US isolationism and protectionism, similar to the 1930s (early 1930s for tariffs). The Pacific and Asia will be the primary focus for US foreign policy.
Pick_Scotland1@reddit
We don’t know till it happens
But we must prepare to be on our own build up our military’s and arms Industry’s and prep for more independent economies
HamunaHamunaHamuna@reddit
NATO is now pretty dead. There is no way any other country can count on Trump to follow up on any agreements, not even if they were renegotiated to be even more in Americas favor.
aquilaPUR@reddit
I literally have no idea what Trump is going to do. Yes yes, back in 2016 he was surrounded by GOP Establishment that kept him somewhat in line (just learned today that he ordered Assads elimination in 2016, but the order was not carried out and then he forgot about it) but now he has a bunch of yes-men and insane people like Musk or RFK (who plans on removing Flouride from drinking water and will "clear out entire departments of the HHS") who will encourage him on the crazy shit.
Ukraine is now his problem, so when he learns that Putin can not, in fact, be pacified with a phonecall, this shit could go south fast. What I know for certain though is that Bibi will get his Blank cheque, and the subsequent violence will make everything happening so far look like childs play. If Iran or its proxies try to intervene, Trump will probably join in on the fun and start "bombing the shit out of them" too as he likes to say.
I guess we can only wait and see. The guy is just unpredictable, and he is deteriorating. Could lash out in all directions, thats why its so funny that the Russians are celebrating his victory. Biden may have been a steady ukraine supporter, but he was very timid and you knew what to expect. With Trump, he might aswell join in on the war because something on the TV made him mad at the Russians (thats where he got the idea to blow up Soleimani btw)
TwunnySeven@reddit
they should be. if 2016 didn't already, this election proved that Europe cannot rely on the US aways being on their side. I think most Europeans would agree that the EU needs to start being a bit more proactive
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