It was nice to see my vote count.
Posted by skooba87@reddit | Libertarian | View on Reddit | 95 comments
I know this probably isn't popular for a libertarian,, but I live in Pennsylvania and had voted for Johnson and Jorgensen in 2016 and 2020.
However after seeing the Biden administration did the last four years and the utter shit candidate they were shoving down the country's throat in Kamala, I decided to vote for Trump. He is obviously far from perfect, but I am cautiously optimistic some of the more radical left policies will fade.
I see it as a voting win as well, knowing that I had a small part in helping a crucial swing state flip back red.
ecleipsis@reddit
I hope you’re right. I’m not looking forward to the tariff proposals. Trump is very anti free market.
mmic0033@reddit
Trump is very pro free market. My biggest worry is that he thought spending during covid saved us from a great depression.
I think he is due to find out he merely kicked the can down the road.
ecleipsis@reddit
Please explain how one can support tariffs and be pro free market at the same time?
mmic0033@reddit
I'll let you in on a little secret, most adults can agree on some things and disagree on other things and still support each other.
Songrot@reddit
Lmao dodging the question by throwing bot sentences
He asked you a specific question, answer it or admit you have no argument
mmic0033@reddit
Almost everything being done right now is anti free market, so what would it matter to libertarians if some rules are repealed and some others are enforced?
The major issue that there is, is that goods are imported from countries with far less regulation, some from abusive countries, and then sold in the local market at a premium, satisfying investors and stealing jobs.
Tarrifs could be used to leverage manufacturing jobs back to the community for a while, however that would involve a lot of responsibility in managing foreign affairs, primarily by avoiding to start new conflicts and securing trade routes. This would depend on having a system based on sound money and not one which exploits inflationary practices, so that manufacturing can actually get its engine revving to create a system of stable production and prices for goods and services.
If china tries to lower production prices by abusing its workers or shirking responsibility on regulated production, then they get punished for it through tarrifs. It's really not an ideal situation to be in, however you need to keep in mind that your $1500 iPhone is made in a factory which has nets outside to catch people trying to kill themselves. I think people should be discouraged from purchasing such products that generate little to no taxes to the local community.
So while I as a libertarian am against tarrifs, I wholly support anything that puts local manufacturers on a level playing field.
ecleipsis@reddit
In theory that all sounds great. I’d love to see more manufacturing in the states and more people supporting American business instead of foreign.
However it’s simply just that, in theory. In practice tariffs often do the opposite and actually harm consumers and reduce jobs. Perhaps some manufacturing jobs increase short term but meanwhile other industries suffer.
I’m just having a hard time finding any data that tariffs done recently actually do what you’re suggesting.
https://carnegieendowment.org/china-financial-markets/2021/01/how-trumps-tariffs-really-affected-the-us-job-market?lang=en
https://econofact.org/steel-tariffs-and-u-s-jobs-revisited
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2024/03/larger-lesson-about-tariffs-in-a-move-that-helped-trump-but-not-the-country/
mmic0033@reddit
I don't disagree, like I said I don't support the idea of government intervention.
But we have to see, as these tarrifs could be a load of hot air meant to make negotiations easier to deal with countries like China. I think Trump is aware of the leverage that the US can make on the global stage. But I trust this cabinet more than I have any other when it comes to fiscal responsibility. At least they are aware of the economic problems.
What I don't like is that during covid he reacted as they had in the roaring 20's. They spent a butt load of money.
Songrot@reddit
that's the dumbest shit I have ever heard.
"Bc Cuba and Norway are both anti free market, we choose Cuba bc it doesnt matter." "Bc libertarian obviously also don't care about human rights of women, I choose a known enemy of women rights and seeing them as sex flesh"
What a take. You should have not explained it. Worst fucking shit
More-Instruction-183@reddit
I’ve read that he wants to tax Chinese companies because those companies are subsidized by the Chinese government, creating unfair competition
ecleipsis@reddit
Good thing we don’t subsidize anything in the US
BigAl265@reddit
He’s using tariffs as a negotiation tool. Look at how other countries place tariffs on US goods, we are getting absolutely screwed. Then there’s the issue of companies moving their manufacturing outside the US and still expecting to benefit from being an American company. All the while, gutting our manufacturing sectors. That in itself is a national security nightmare, when our country can’t even manufacture our own crucial goods. Hell, we don’t even make our own pharmaceuticals. That’s insane.
ecleipsis@reddit
There are other ways to incentivize US companies to produce here other than manipulating the market and hurting consumers. It’s right up there with price fixing. I’m just surprised to see people in a libertarian sub being in support of tariffs.
Jsin8601@reddit
It doesnt hurt the consumers. It forces companies to manufacture in US, bringing millions of jobs and pushing cost DOWN
ecleipsis@reddit
I’m not sure where you are getting that information but they increase import prices which raise cost of goods and create market inefficiencies. Additionally, money saved by consumers buying cheaper imports allows for more money to be spent in other industries and create jobs naturally.
Milton Friedman has some great speeches and articles discussing this topic.
Jsin8601@reddit
Not all goods, some things sure..... you just dont buy the imported goods, i.e "the more expensive" lol. You buy what ends up being manufactured in the US at a lower cost.
When more US factories and farmers are producing items it allows for lower prices. You buy those items.
Are you serious?
ecleipsis@reddit
Were you happy with the outcomes of trumps tariffs on steel in 2018? https://econofact.org/steel-tariffs-and-u-s-jobs-revisited
Jsin8601@reddit
US money used to enrich the US.
Love it. Keeps countries like commie China honest. Either pay or lose. If they pay, US has more money.
ecleipsis@reddit
Trump’s former tariffs on steel in 2018 should paint a great picture for how that is not what happens in actuality.
Jsin8601@reddit
Move out of China or pay tariff. Simple concept....commi.
txeagle24@reddit
And with less competition from lower-priced imported goods, the demand for domestic goods will exceed the supply which will drive the price of those goods up to the detriment of the American consumer.
yzkv_7@reddit
We need someone like Friedman again to teach the aaverage Joe about econ 101 ideas like Ricardian advantage.
yzkv_7@reddit
Google "Ricardian advantage".
KoalaGrunt0311@reddit
Avoiding tariffs is a big reason that Asian car manufacturers established factories in the US. Additionally, Nippon Steel is entering an agreement to purchase and expected to update US Steel mills. US Steel has had a failure of their emissions systems at their coke plant outside Pittsburgh for a few years now, and has actively chosen to pay fines for the pollution rather than fix the problem.
Sea_Journalist_3615@reddit
Most people are illiterate on economics and ethics.
yzkv_7@reddit
Google "Ricardian advantage".
CommercialSomewhere8@reddit
You also need a college educated workforce for the automated pharmaceuticals. What's Trump going yo do about that, help out with college or bring in more immigration?
yzkv_7@reddit
The upcoming recession should be fun.
skooba87@reddit (OP)
Well not the like the other would be better with wanting the government to take over while industries (i.e., healthcare).
ecleipsis@reddit
Agreed the other side would have issues as well, especially around price fixing. I am just pessimistic that this whole gov efficiency thing will actually happen, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Pisfool@reddit
Hopefully anyone inside the Party would be cool enough to speak against it.
WillowShadow16@reddit
Arizonan here, same story. I voted for both Gary Johnson and Jo Jorgensen. I voted for Trump this year. I was absolutely glued to the vote count. I explained to my fiance "This is the first time I could be part of someone winning".
headpsu@reddit
Same. PA resident. Voted Gary Johnson x2 and then Jo Jorgensen. Voted for trump this election for the same reasons.
I guess we will see what happens.
dukesilver91@reddit
I really don’t understand how anyone claiming to be a libertarian could vote for Trump.
I get that Kamala is not a great candidate, but Trump doesn’t even believe in democracy and literally tried to install himself as president in the last election.
Just about everything he has done is the opposite of libertarian values.
headpsu@reddit
Then you are wildly out of touch with the American political landscape, the objective of the R & D parties, and how the vast majority of actual libertarians felt about this election. You’re a fool who’s been manipulated by the media consume.
I’m not some diehard Trumper, but I could see the writing on the wall and he is definitely the better alternative for Libertarians. Dave Smith voted for Trump this election, along with the vast majority of libertarians (look at how Chase Oliver did).
Trump is talking about getting rid of things like the department of education, bringing on musk to address, government, efficiency, and bloat, ending all US involvement in foreign conflicts and proxy wars, having RFK address, the FDA and USDA and corruption in those departments.
Ron Paul and Thomas Massie have been invited to be involved in the administration…
We’ll see if those things happen. at this point, I’m optimistic. That’s.
I don’t understand how anyone claiming to be libertarian could think Kamala is simply “ not a great candidate”
dukesilver91@reddit
At the end of the day, only one candidate in this election tried to subvert the government and overturn a free and fair election that same candidate said we should rip up the constitution.
Trump is clearly an authoritarian that wants as much power as possible. Even if I knew that the guardrails would hold him in check, I could never vote for someone that so clearly idolizes dictators. When he calls Putin brilliant because he rules his people with an “iron fist”… which part of libertarianism is that?
(BTW, I think there is some serious concerns that the guardrails will hold this time. I think he’s learned his lesson and will only have loyalist in his cabinet)
You have JD Vance saying he thinks that if the courts try to stop Trump, he should defy them and let the courts enforce it.
And this isn’t even getting into his policies! He tanked the economy last time and from everything he has said, he will do it again.
If you’re a “libertarian” that voted for Trump, I think you’re really just a republican that doesn’t like the label.
headpsu@reddit
Well, it’s a good thing objective reality isn’t based on what you think/believe lol.
RemindMe! 1,275 days
Have a good one.
dukesilver91@reddit
Have fun licking his boot!
Remind me! 1300 Days
Half_paw@reddit
You literally voted for a guy who violated 1st and 2nd amendment rights, tried to violate state's rights by sending in the National Guard to Oregon, said we should repeal the Constitution when he lost, organized a coup, had a hand in repealing our right to privacy and women's autonomy over their own bodies, tanked the economy, and enacts authoritarian policies over and over again through EO.
I thought libertarianism was the opposite of authoritarianism. I thought libertarians loved small government, the free market, and the Bill of Rights.
The country just gave the authoritarians control of the executive, senate, (soon to be) house, and they already own the SC.
The next 4 years are going to be a shit show.
rogerdaltry@reddit
Amen
Consistent-Area5074@reddit
This is what I've been saying. The response I usually get is "but they can't do that. It was built for balance." Well it just happened. Nothing has been in a balance for a long time.
XenoX101@reddit
Are you part of Biden Harris's Disinformation Governance Board? Because these are all lies. The first amendment "violation" of Trump is about whether he can block twitter followers, who cares. Meanwhile Kamala Harris will forward Biden's work on censoring "misinformation" and "disinformation" via the aforementioned Disinformation Governance Board. As for the second amendment, you are probably referring to Trump's bump stock ban, again, this is nothing compared to Kamala's plan to enact gun control if congress doesn't do it within 100 days. It's clear that you are not a libertarian, otherwise you would see that Trump, while flawed, is the far lesser of the two evils from a libertarian perspective. And I didn't even mention taxes!
SynapticSignal@reddit
Can you tell me how Trump has anything to do with women's autonomy over their bodies? They simply took That issue away from the federal government to make decisions on it. States have to work towards a compromise to make it legal.
Mello-Fello@reddit
Oh man, watch it with the simple common sense — you’ll spoil all the fun for the people who just want to go REE REE REE MUH ABORSHINS
SynapticSignal@reddit
This is a hard issue for me to think about. It's like implying we need federal government to protect women's rights to an abortion.
If you apply this to legalization of marijuana It would work like this - state's have the right to decide of marijuana is legal or not, even though its illegal in a federal level. The reverse of that, is that marijuana is legal on a federal level, but states have the right to decide if it's legal or not there. If the US gov't decides that it will no longer classify marijuana as a controlled substance, should it then make it illegal for states to make it illegal? Marijuana isn't a constitutional right, but that subserviates the democratic system to make choices.
rocknthenumbers8@reddit
Tell me how Kamala would have been better on small gov, free markets and the bill of rights?
16thompsonh@reddit
She wouldn’t, but having a split government helps slow down what the authoritarians can shove down our throats. Giving the republicans the house, senate, and presidency lets them strip whatever rights they feel like.
kunzinator@reddit
Don't even bother trying... This sub is laughable. Prioritizing small government while ignoring the authoritarian leaning elephant in the room and then circle jerking themselves on how good they did.
Half_paw@reddit
And seeing as how so many cast votes for Trump: statist bootlicking.
What a joke.
yzkv_7@reddit
I mean this as s genuine question in good faith: What was different about this cycle for you that made you go for Trump instead of LP like you did in 16 and 20?
skooba87@reddit (OP)
To begin with I was reformed Republican, I got into LP during the Obama admin because eof Ron Paul.
Seeing what happened in 2020, I knew being in a swing that every vote can matter. After watching Biden/Harris fail at every basic level, and then Harris being one of the least qualified candidates in history just made me sick.
Chase Oliver was a downgrade from previous LP candidates as well. It seemed like the perfect storm. I had to do more than vote with my conscious, I had to be pragmatic, even shrewd.
yzkv_7@reddit
Do you think Harris is worse then Biden?
Also what did you dislike about Oliver compared to past candidates.
Not trying to be disrespectful just trying to figure out what made this election unique for you.
Wolf482@reddit
Same. I'm in Michigan. I voted for him and I'm so glad I did. Reddit is having an absolute meltdown right now. They are so fucking clueless as to what a dictator or a Nazi is.
Forward-Tie-7992@reddit
ironically they're behaving the very way a tyrant does. The hive made doesn't like when you disagree with them but is quick to point a finger. rules for thee but not for me 🙄
HausRonin@reddit
A vote for Trump was a vote to resurrect Ron Paul.
skooba87@reddit (OP)
We can hope. It's a least getting his name back into mix.
RodKimble_@reddit
Back into the mix? I love me some Ron Paul but he’s 89 man lol
jgn77@reddit
I'd take Ron Paul at 89 over pretty much anyone when making decisions about cutting gov't fat.
skooba87@reddit (OP)
Maybe just as a name younger people can see and do some research and learn more about principles of liberty and libertarianism.
jgn77@reddit
What a well reasoned and intelligent post on Reddit. I guess unicorns do exist.
jrherita@reddit
I did the same thing (Pennsylvania). Gary, Jo, but Trump. (I actually left the R party in 2016 when Trump was nominated..)
I liked a lot that both RFK and Trump at least came to the Libertarian party to talk to them, and with a little bit of a 'unity' theme going on with RFK being part of Trumps' cabinet, and of course once there was talk of Musk and government efficiency.. It actually sounded not bad.
My wife also voted against Harris because of the unrealized tax gains plan which would fundamentally destroy the capitalisation of the US economy.
acemiller11@reddit
Yup. Me too!
Booth_Templeton@reddit
A lot of people like you voted for him for the first time. I have voted for him for the last two elections. Trump will be better than any liberal, despite being highly flawed.
Odd_Philosophy_6034@reddit
Lick the boot harder.
Booth_Templeton@reddit
That's the way I see it, despite any stupid, personal attacks.
Somerandomedude1q2w@reddit
Yeah, there was really no decent Libertarian candidate. I stayed home and didn't vote. Trump may be better than Harris, but he isn't good enough for me to make anh effort for him. But I can see why some would vote for him, so I'm not judging.
MightyMTB@reddit
I almost didn’t vote but the guilty conscious of “The more votes people see for us the better it looks” got the best of me. Then we absolutely flopped lol
Zealousideal-City-16@reddit
Trump won by our vote. The normal libertarian numbers put him over in all of the important states. He owes us some cuts.
TheOlSneakyPete@reddit
I think Trumps has shown he’s leaned more towards libertarian ideas than he did when campaigning the last two times. He also has some people with very libertarian views closely to his campaign and I’m assuming soon to be cabinet. I don’t think it was a bad way to vote. I mean, Libertarians invited him to their own national event.
CinnaCatullus@reddit
That's exactly where I was at too. Thanks for articulating it.
bt4bm01@reddit
I’m not a registered libertarian, but I dabble. I voted trump, but I did vote for my libertarian candidate for congressman. Go easy on me guys. It’s a first step.
Jsin8601@reddit
Not all goods, some things sure..... you just dont buy the imported goods lol.
When more US factories and farmers are producing items it allows for lower prices. You buy those items.
You buy what ends up being manufactured in the US.
Are you serious?
Odd_Philosophy_6034@reddit
Are you serious? Don't buy an imported phone or a phone with zero imported components or a car. Get fucked statist.
Jsin8601@reddit
MakeAmericaChipManufacturersAgain.
Odd_Philosophy_6034@reddit
I'm sure that's a totally viable long term solution. Can't foresee any supply chain issues trying to source all materials self sufficiently in the long term. I heard that when things become more scarce and demand for those things goes up the price goes down right? /s
Jsin8601@reddit
"Pinky, when you control tariffs, you control THE WORLD!"
milovulongtime@reddit
Sometimes pragmatism needs to win over idealism. Congratulations on investing more thought into this election than most.
skooba87@reddit (OP)
Yeah I wasn't necessarily thrilled about it, but I made my choice. I wanted to see the libertarian reaction to it, and as I expected it is mixed. I want there to be better options, but the pressure of living in a swing state in a general election is intense. For the next four years I will continue to spread the values of liberty to those within my circle of influence and hopefully I won't have make such a decision again in 4 years
iamanewyorker@reddit
Thank you - I’m hoping that his bipartisan coalition will work and we will see changes but who knows… At least it’s a different idea…if he can bring down the fever of wars I’ll consider it a win and also thanks for voting for him …
16thompsonh@reddit
Fuck Donald Trump.
You don’t have to vote for him to not vote for the candidate you dislike.
BearDogBBQ@reddit
RustyRoot8@reddit
I’m with you my friend
BadMan0321@reddit
Such a good little Statist.
FernadoPoo@reddit
Have fun on jury duty
SynapticSignal@reddit
I hear you. I voted for him too. I am feeling uneasy about it though that he's going to blow it for us. I really want to Believe that he will strengthen the American dollar, but I can also see the potential for him to go back on his word.
Dollar_Bills@reddit
I'm pretty sure your vote counted a lot more because they blamed 3rd party voters in both those elections.
They're having a hard time blaming voters this time around, but rest assured it's never going to be the fault of the candidate or the system that installed a candidate
wilhelmfink4@reddit
Good lad
thatguyyouknow74@reddit
To have the whole world looking at your swing state, county by county can definitely make you critically think what’s best for you. Don’t envy the stress swing states usually get during elections. I feel you still voted with a libertarian mindset.
skooba87@reddit (OP)
At some point you have to vote with a "me first mindset". I'll repeat I know Trump isn't an ideal option but I know some of policy will help me and family more than Kamala, and that's not hypothetical, we were way better off 2016-2020 even with COVID than the past four years
ScootWeedDealer@reddit
Fuck Donald Trump.
skooba87@reddit (OP)
Fuck Kamala Harris.
ScootWeedDealer@reddit
I agree.
Blueskaisunshine@reddit
Same. Libertarian in WI. Voted Jo last time and decided to back up MAGA this year.
Now I just want to see action towards an overhaul.
CastleBravo88@reddit
I feel the same, now we need to hold the new administration to account for what they will do for our country. Same as any other. Good job!
Forward-Tie-7992@reddit
Awesome job man